View Full Version : so, um, mideast situation not looking to great, huh?
30 cal slut
12-04-11, 13:34
let's see -
-pakistan booting us out of air base over recent attack
-iran shoots down u.s. drone
-muslim brotherhood ascendancy in egypt
-iran nukes
am i missing anything here?
let's see -
-pakistan booting us out of air base over recent attack
-iran shoots down u.s. drone
-muslim brotherhood ascendancy in egypt
-iran nukes
am i missing anything here?
You missed Iran storming the UK embassy.
montanadave
12-04-11, 14:34
Same shit, different day.
I watched both the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War before I was out of high school. And things were a lot more tense back in those days.
The media and the politicians trade in sensationalism and fear. Frankly, I'm sick of being told the ****ing world is coming to an end every other five minutes.
yeah, but this is a little different. Russia is in an election year and they have bee sabre rattling as well. The EU is on the verge of bankruptcy so it's going to take an act of god to get them to mobilize. The UN? We are the UN and NATO, and WB......etc.
We're broke, spread thin, and have a lot shi going on domestically!
If you're not taking the seperate facts in and coming up with a possible oh shit situation then you need to check your math!
The only positive and this is a BIG positive is that we have the best trained, armed, and experienced war fighters in the world at this point and time! We have been in one armed conflict or another for the past 20yrs!!
So if someone wants to get into a pissing contest they need to know we're packing more meat and a bigger bladder than anyone else in the world!!
yeah, but this is a little different. Russia is in an election year and they have bee sabre rattling as well. The EU is on the verge of bankruptcy so it's going to take an act of god to get them to mobilize. The UN? We are the UN and NATO, and WB......etc.
We're broke, spread thin, and have a lot shi going on domestically!
If you're not taking the seperate facts in and coming up with a possible oh shit situation then you need to check your math!
The only positive and this is a BIG positive is that we have the best trained, armed, and experienced war fighters in the world at this point and time! We have been in one armed conflict or another for the past 20yrs!!
So if someone wants to get into a pissing contest they need to know we're packing more meat and a bigger bladder than anyone else in the world!!
To be fair to Dave,
The '73 war came at a time when America was reflexively anti-war, borderline anti-military, trust in our system was at an incredible low, the Europeans were/are useless (name decade, they're cowards or combat ineffectual), we were entering a near decade of economic disaster, an energy crisis (replete with gas lines, still haven't seen that yet), the Soviets had most of the political/military influence with the big hitters in the ME, and so on. It's not as if the world was rose scented with rounded corners during the Yom Kippur War.
And during the Six-Day War we had 500,000 troops deployed in South Vietnam, leaving us in not the best position if things really warmed up in the ME.
CarlosDJackal
12-05-11, 12:37
Amazing just how quickly that region can go south less than 2 years after the current POTUS was elected.
It's akin to putting a blind two-legged dog with no teeth to guard the chicken coop. Don't be surprise if you loose more chickens than before.
montanadave
12-05-11, 13:33
Amazing just how quickly that region can go south less than 2 years after the current POTUS was elected.
It's akin to putting a blind two-legged dog with no teeth to guard the chicken coop. Don't be surprise if you loose more chickens than before.
That's simply an absurd observation. How the **** is the situation now any further south than it's been for the past decade? The Arab Spring? Give me a break. That's exactly what the neo-cons said they were trying to stimulate by invading Iraq and deposing Sadam. An outbreak of democratic uprisings throughout the Middle East.
Maybe we should be a little more careful what we wish for. That's the bitch about democratic free elections. Sometimes folks vote for the guys you don't like. Ya buy your ticket and ya take your chances.
VooDoo6Actual
12-05-11, 13:43
Move along here nothing to see, everything is going perfectly....
That's simply an absurd observation. How the **** is the situation now any further south than it's been for the past decade? The Arab Spring? Give me a break. That's exactly what the neo-cons said they were trying to stimulate by invading Iraq and deposing Sadam. An outbreak of democratic uprisings throughout the Middle East.
Maybe we should be a little more careful what we wish for. That's the bitch about democratic free elections. Sometimes folks vote for the guys you don't like. Ya buy your ticket and ya take your chances.
This. Who made us the great sewers of democracy seeds? Some cultures simply aren't cut out for it. Perhaps if we'd spend less time telling the rest of the world how perfect it is for them and instead set a good example, we might have better luck worldwide? :confused:
Move along here nothing to see, everything is going perfectly....
sometimes i think that is precisely the plan!:secret:
The_War_Wagon
12-05-11, 15:07
The Mohammedan-in-Chief is on it - nothing to worry about... :rolleyes:
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/notamuslim01.jpg
Perhaps if we'd spend less time telling the rest of the world how perfect it is for them and instead set a good example, we might have better luck worldwide?
I like where your head's at. However, that doesn't fit in with the bigger agenda.
Tribe member here. Many in Israel have had it with Obama. Many have had it with Iran. Many have had it in general with Arabs. Many in Israel are ripe to start something and to finish it. The lessons of Lebanon haven't been forgotten. Takes a lot to push Israelis to action, but they have proven they are more than game when they finally get riled up.
Israeli attitudes have hardened recently and the contentious nature of the US-Israel realations(thanks Obama) has made many think unilateral is the way to go. I interact regularly with recent IDF'ers and the prevailing attitude seems to be one of "let's get some." Say what you will, but a determined and united Israel is something other Middle Eastern countries would rather not have to mess with. The current admin.'s bungling of Israeli relations has actually made Israel more self-sufficient, determined, prepared, and thank goodness, aggressive.
I agree with you on everything you're saying. I don't know if it's obama or the fact that the us is trying to placate a number of the arab countries...... It's not rigth. Israel has been a good ally and I don't like the way they seem to leaving you guy's out to dry. I think you guys might be surprised at just how many us-israel flights would be full of fighting age men and women if you decided to make a go of it. At least that is the feelling I've gotten from conversations I've had with people.
Littlelebowski
12-05-11, 22:30
Tribe member here. Many in Israel have had it with Obama. Many have had it with Iran. Many have had it in general with Arabs. Many in Israel are ripe to start something and to finish it. The lessons of Lebanon haven't been forgotten. Takes a lot to push Israelis to action, but they have proven they are more than game when they finally get riled up.
Israeli attitudes have hardened recently and the contentious nature of the US-Israel realations(thanks Obama) has made many think unilateral is the way to go. I interact regularly with recent IDF'ers and the prevailing attitude seems to be one of "let's get some." Say what you will, but a determined and united Israel is something other Middle Eastern countries would rather not have to mess with. The current admin.'s bungling of Israeli relations has actually made Israel more self-sufficient, determined, prepared, and thank goodness, aggressive.
Does that mean we can stop propping them up?
Does that mean we can stop propping them up?
you're going to call israel out? Why don't you get on your soapbox about Pakistan and all of the other POS coutries we give money to!
do you have any Israeli friends? Have you ever been to Israel? How many Israelis do you see on welfare or gov't aid? How many times has Israel given our country intelligence about terror attacks? Yemen, World trade center ( BOTH TIMES)
you need to stow that shit!!
Littlelebowski
12-05-11, 22:54
80% of our foreign aid goes to Israel. What technology we don't give them, they steal. I'm all for not giving anyone any money. Non interventionist. Ask yourself "what Smedley Butler would do?" and you have my answer. I'm certain you will reply with some hack, jingoistic nonsense but do remember the USS Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident).
As far as me "stowing that shit," you are certainly welcome to try and make me.
Israel should learn how to get on its feet and toddle along like a big country all by itself.
you're going to call israel out? Why don't you get on your soapbox about Pakistan and all of the other POS coutries we give money to!
We've spent several hundred billion dollars in that region since the Camp David Accords in 1978 and haven't accomplished "peace" or much else for that matter except for fueling warring countries with American dollars. My government steals my money and gives it to a country that I will never visit, have no ties to and expects to do the same around the globe to multiple warring factions to somehow buy peace. Well, it's not working and if you'd like to send your money overseas then get an envelope, slap a stamp on it and send your greenbacks to wherever and whomever you'd like. Just don't come steal mine at gunpoint and expect me to be happy about it.
We give billions of dollars to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, etc every year and pay no attention to the real problems that come along with foreign intervention. I for one am not willing to give away my hard earned money, my children's future and the economic stability of our own country so that we can somehow feel benevolent in our cause to "save" Israel. Please don't misunderstand my position and somehow think I'm anti-Semitic or anything of that nature. If it were up to me we'd end all foreign aid, let Americans keep their hard earned money or at the least spend it on ourselves to better our own country.
Please take the time to read this study by the Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies as I think it may enlighten some of you to the real cost that sending money to Israel causes in terms of hurting the Israeli people's own economy. http://www.jims-israel.org/pdf/PRUSAidEnglish.pdf
More Jews who support Ron Paul and his ideas for the country of Israel: http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/05/09/ron-paul-and-israel/
A decent article on Israel and Ron Paul that might bring some more info to the table: http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block88.html
you need to stow that shit!!
That's not called for or very polite.
80% of our foreign aid goes to Israel. What technology we don't give them, they steal. I'm all for not giving anyone any money. Non interventionist. Ask yourself "what Smedley Butler would do?" and you have my answer. I'm certain you will reply with some hack, jingoistic nonsense but do remember the USS Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident).
As far as me "stowing that shit," you are certainly welcome to try and make me.
Israel should learn how to get on its feet and toddle along like a big country all by itself.
I don't think you need to stow anything, I enjoy reading your posts as always.
I do disagree on the non-interventionist point--it's just a difference of DEGREE, however. I agree we can't and shouldn't try to be the world's cop. We've probably been too interventionist in the past. But there are situations where we need to intervene. And as for Israel, they are pretty surrounded and alone: they are the ONLY real democracy in that part of the world, and for that reason alone (setting aside other reasons), it is in our national interest to help keep them free and to help them defend themselves. I'd hate to see us lapse back into the non-interventionist mode we were in prior to WWII.
you're going to call israel out? Why don't you get on your soapbox about Pakistan and all of the other POS coutries we give money to!
do you have any Israeli friends? Have you ever been to Israel? How many Israelis do you see on welfare or gov't aid? How many times has Israel given our country intelligence about terror attacks? Yemen, World trade center ( BOTH TIMES)
you need to stow that shit!!
I have Israeli friends, I dont like Pakistan and I am pro Israel, but not at the cost of our country. I want to stop all government funded foreign aid. Israel needs to become a grown up country and stand on their own. Given the sheer amount of aid we give them, the entire nation of Israel is on welfare, U.S. (and other European nations) funded welfare. I don't like the "fight to the last American dollar" attitude they seem to have.
Nathan_Bell
12-06-11, 10:56
I have Israeli friends, I dont like Pakistan and I am pro Israel, but not at the cost of our country. I want to stop all government funded foreign aid. Israel needs to become a grown up country and stand on their own. Given the sheer amount of aid we give them, the entire nation of Israel is on welfare, U.S. (and other European nations) funded welfare. I don't like the "fight to the last American dollar" attitude they seem to have.
Exactly.
montanadave
12-06-11, 11:05
I don't think you need to stow anything, I enjoy reading your posts as always.
I do disagree on the non-interventionist point--it's just a difference of DEGREE, however. I agree we can't and shouldn't try to be the world's cop. We've probably been too interventionist in the past. But there are situations where we need to intervene. And as for Israel, they are pretty surrounded and alone: they are the ONLY real democracy in that part of the world, and for that reason alone (setting aside other reasons), it is in our national interest to help keep them free and to help them defend themselves. I'd hate to see us lapse back into the non-interventionist mode we were in prior to WWII.
I realize I'm poking a hornet's nest here, but why is supporting and defending Israel in our national interest?
If continuing to carry Israel's water in some way assuages our collective guilt about the Holocaust, fine. But at least be honest about our motivations and call it reparations rather than foreign/military aid. If our support is to curry favor with the American Jewish community, than call it a political bribe. As for the paradoxical zeal the evangelical Christian community has for Israel, the basis for their support is wholly self-serving as it is predicated on sustaining Israel just long enough for the Jews to rebuild the Temple on the Mount and usher in the Apocalypse where they get to do a victory lap and scorn all the damned. If our support is strictly ideological, than our support of Israel seems a tad disproportionate given all the other struggling democracies around the globe that could use a hand up from big brother.
But let's not kid ourselves and say it's in our national interest. All our support for Israel has done over the past half century is to foment enmity within the Arab community towards the United States. Love 'em or hate 'em, the Arabs have a chokehold on the world's energy reserves and it is clearly in our best interests, at least economically, to strengthen our relationships in the Arab world, not undermine them.
And yet we continue to send buckets of money to Israel while spending a trillion bucks over the past decade to kill Arabs. A trillion bucks, by the way, which we borrowed from the Chinese because we're broke, in large part due to sending a couple hundred billion dollars a year to buy Arab oil. Not to mention the estimated 7 trillion bucks (yeah, that's seven with a trillion) the United States has spent to secure safe passage of Arab oil out of the Persian Gulf since the 1970s (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/08/05/the_ministry_of_oil_defense?page=0,0).
Seriously senseless shit.
Like I said, it may be a difference of degree. I don't want to spend WASTEFUL foreign aid money that is not needed, certainly not to do things that countries can and should be doing for themselves. If we give excessive financial or other support, it should be trimmed.
But it's really self-evident that Israel is a true democracy that supports not only US policy, but more importantly, our moral values in an area of the world where we have precious few reliable friends. IMO, this means that we should continue to help them in reasonable ways to defend themselves against the many who want to annihilate them. How you define "reasonable" of course, is up for a wide range of interpretation. I just get concerned when I heard folks advocate the total non-interventionist stance; that's my main concern.
Foreign aid is the best bang for the buck in the entire Federal Budget and is a tiny slice of it as well. I would get rid of entire departments of the Federal Government before I cut one dime of Foreign aid.
I'm certain you will reply with some hack, jingoistic nonsense but do remember the USS Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident).
There are lots of conspiracy theories around the Liberty incident, but the one I believe is that it was a simple accident. It makes no sense why the Israelis would have deliberately attacked a ship owned by an ally and not have used weapons capable of sinking it with all hands.
As for the paradoxical zeal the evangelical Christian community has for Israel, the basis for their support is wholly self-serving as it is predicated on sustaining Israel just long enough for the Jews to rebuild the Temple on the Mount and usher in the Apocalypse where they get to do a victory lap and scorn all the damned.
If anyone made a stupid generalization like this about another group you would completely freak out.
Most of the Christians I know think that many of the events in Revelation already took place (it being both symbolic of political occurrences around that time in a time when you could not write things critical of Rome and a prediction of future events like the destruction of the temple and the Diaspora) and support Israel for secular reasons.
Nathan_Bell
12-06-11, 13:39
Foreign aid is the best bang for the buck in the entire Federal Budget and is a tiny slice of it as well. I would get rid of entire departments of the Federal Government before I cut one dime of Foreign aid.
Really? How is it in the US's national interest to give money to 3rd world thugs or to destroy African farming communities' economies?
Perhaps you meant it is the best bang for the buck for destabilizing parts of the globe?
http://www.jims-israel.org/pdf/PRUSAidEnglish.pdf
According to JIMS, the lion's share of US aid ends up being spent on maintaining
a qualitative edge over other countries who receive such aid. US aid comes in a
bundle with aid to Egypt, Jordan and other countries. Egypt receives from the US two
thirds of the sum granted to Israel. But according to JIMS, every dollar granted to
Egypt requires Israel to spend between 1.6 and 2.1 dollars to maintain the
balance of power. As a result, every dollar granted to Israel costs Israel between 1.06
and 1.39 dollars.
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 15:36
There are lots of conspiracy theories around the Liberty incident, but the one I believe is that it was a simple accident. It makes no sense why the Israelis would have deliberately attacked a ship owned by an ally and not have used weapons capable of sinking it with all hands.
Read Robert Baer. In his first book, he recounts interviewing and attempting to recruit an Arab intelligence officer who overheard the Israeli radio chatter during the incident. It was no accident. The Israelis did not want us monitoring them and staged an "accident."
It's time Israel got off the tit along with everybody else. Always strikes me as funny how the anti gun Jewish politicians and certain gun owners agree on welfare for Israel.
CarlosDJackal
12-06-11, 16:27
Tribe member here. Many in Israel have had it with Obama. Many have had it with Iran. Many have had it in general with Arabs. Many in Israel are ripe to start something and to finish it. The lessons of Lebanon haven't been forgotten. Takes a lot to push Israelis to action, but they have proven they are more than game when they finally get riled up.
Israeli attitudes have hardened recently and the contentious nature of the US-Israel realations(thanks Obama) has made many think unilateral is the way to go. I interact regularly with recent IDF'ers and the prevailing attitude seems to be one of "let's get some." Say what you will, but a determined and united Israel is something other Middle Eastern countries would rather not have to mess with. The current admin.'s bungling of Israeli relations has actually made Israel more self-sufficient, determined, prepared, and thank goodness, aggressive.
This!! And the fact that the great obama is quick to let the whole world know when we are pulling out of <INSERT AREA HERE>. Whether or not you agree with the fact that we did go into Iraq, it is asinine to give up such Strategic High Ground so easily. Especially with all the sacrifices our Troops made over the past decade.
It's the same reason we were not so quick to give up Guam, Okinawa, Europe, Cuba, Korea, etc. Could you imagine if we pulled our troops from Germany and Japan as soon as WWII was over? Would ROK be as successful economically had we done the same after cessation of "active hostilities"?
I wish I can tell you the most recent decision by this moron that is putting our country in further jeopardy but doing so could actually assist those who would use such information against us. Like it or not, the current administration has done a lot over the past year to weaken us in the eyes of the world economically, militarily and strategically. JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal
12-06-11, 16:35
...There are lots of conspiracy theories around the Liberty incident, but the one I believe is that it was a simple accident. It makes no sense why the Israelis would have deliberately attacked a ship owned by an ally and not have used weapons capable of sinking it with all hands...
Actually, it was either disable that ship's capabilities to transmit information that WAS BEING INTERCEPTED or fed to their opponents or hope that they do not receive the intelligence in time to thwart the planned preemptive strikes. Remember that the Soviet Union had both the capability to intercept such information either electronically or through the many effective moles they had operating within our own agencies during that time period.
While I do not condone the action they chose to pursue, I fully understand that it is an action I would like to think we would take if we did not have the capability to effectively jam any such transmissions.
I personally do not have any issues if we had to take out an intelligence gathering facility that belongs to an ally or a neutral entity in order to ensure our own mission success and the survival of our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. JM2CW.
DeltaSierra
12-06-11, 16:45
I personally do not have any issues if we had to take out an intelligence gathering facility that belongs to an ally or a neutral entity in order to ensure our own mission success and the survival of our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines. JM2CW.
Let me get this straight.
It is fine for Israel, when they attacked an allied vessel in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 US Military personnel?
Let's say that Iran, or North Korea did something similar? Would that be OK?
We've spent several hundred billion dollars in that region since the Camp David Accords in 1978 and haven't accomplished "peace" or much else for that matter except for fueling warring countries with American dollars. My government steals my money and gives it to a country that I will never visit, have no ties to and expects to do the same around the globe to multiple warring factions to somehow buy peace. Well, it's not working and if you'd like to send your money overseas then get an envelope, slap a stamp on it and send your greenbacks to wherever and whomever you'd like. Just don't come steal mine at gunpoint and expect me to be happy about it.
We give billions of dollars to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, etc every year and pay no attention to the real problems that come along with foreign intervention. I for one am not willing to give away my hard earned money, my children's future and the economic stability of our own country so that we can somehow feel benevolent in our cause to "save" Israel. Please don't misunderstand my position and somehow think I'm anti-Semitic or anything of that nature. If it were up to me we'd end all foreign aid, let Americans keep their hard earned money or at the least spend it on ourselves to better our own country.
Please take the time to read this study by the Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies as I think it may enlighten some of you to the real cost that sending money to Israel causes in terms of hurting the Israeli people's own economy. http://www.jims-israel.org/pdf/PRUSAidEnglish.pdf
More Jews who support Ron Paul and his ideas for the country of Israel: http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/05/09/ron-paul-and-israel/
A decent article on Israel and Ron Paul that might bring some more info to the table: http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block88.html
That's not called for or very polite.
I will read the articles and I do apologize for my tone and rant. Having come from German/Jewish stock this is a bit of a tender subject for me.
Littlelebowski - I do apologize for the personal attack since you were expressing your opinion and not attacking me.
p.s. I like the "you can try retort!" If you're ever down San Antonio way shoot me a pm prior and we'll grab a beer....
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 17:40
I will read the articles and I do apologize for my tone and rant. Having come from German/Jewish stock this is a bit of a tender subject for me.
Littlelebowski - I do apologize for the personal attack since you were expressing your opinion and not attacking me.
p.s. I like the "you can try retort!" If you're ever down San Antonio way shoot me a pm prior and we'll grab a beer....
No worries, dude. Nothing personal against Israel. I wish them the best of luck without our assistance just like every other country.
let's see -
-pakistan booting us out of air base over recent attack
-iran shoots down u.s. drone
-muslim brotherhood ascendancy in egypt
-iran nukes
am i missing anything here?
Only thing missing is Saudi ousting the royal family and becoming a complete Islamic theocracy. If and when that happens it should pretty much be game on.
I will read the articles and I do apologize for my tone and rant. Having come from German/Jewish stock this is a bit of a tender subject for me.
It happens to the best of us on occasion, myself included. Besides, I'm just a potato eating drunk, what do I know? :D
Read Robert Baer. In his first book, he recounts interviewing and attempting to recruit an Arab intelligence officer who overheard the Israeli radio chatter during the incident. It was no accident. The Israelis did not want us monitoring them and staged an "accident."
It's time Israel got off the tit along with everybody else. Always strikes me as funny how the anti gun Jewish politicians and certain gun owners agree on welfare for Israel.
He was pretty eye opening.
There are lots of conspiracy theories around the Liberty incident, but the one I believe is that it was a simple accident. It makes no sense why the Israelis would have deliberately attacked a ship owned by an ally and not have used weapons capable of sinking it with all hands.
Dude, they fired 5 torpedoes at the ship with one hit. That they didn't sink the ship means 2 things: 1. The Israelis are 5th rate, the illusion of their combat preeminence is because the grabasstic dipshit Arabs they face suck; and 2. United States Navy sailors are the best trained and drilled damage control personnel in human history.
The Israelis are only allies in so far as we give them money. They **** us and send us down the river at the slightest hint it might be even remotely advantageous to them. What technology we give them ends up in China in short order. What we don't give them, they attempt to steal, and then sell to the Chinese if they are successful.
I wish the Israelis the best, mainly because their existence pisses off the Arabs, but they aren't in any way, shape, or form our allies. And it's about time they stand on their own two feet.
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 20:53
Thank you for posting that.
Dude, they fired 5 torpedoes at the ship with one hit. That they didn't sink the ship means 2 things: 1. The Israelis are 5th rate, the illusion of their combat preeminence is because the grabasstic dipshit Arabs they face suck; and 2. United States Navy sailors are the best trained and drilled damage control personnel in human history.
The Israelis are only allies in so far as we give them money. They **** us and send us down the river at the slightest hint it might be even remotely advantageous to them. What technology we give them ends up in China in short order. What we don't give them, they attempt to steal, and then sell to the Chinese if they are successful.
I wish the Israelis the best, mainly because their existence pisses off the Arabs, but they aren't in any way, shape, or form our allies. And it's about time they stand on their own two feet.
Eurodriver
12-06-11, 21:24
-muslim brotherhood ascendancy in egypt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ7OqW4wArY
Funny. Someone goes on MSNBC in February and says the Muslim Brotherhood is going to gain power in Egypt and everyone looks at him like he's got a dick growing out of his forehead.
And now...?
Seriously,
I am surprised we are having this discussion on M4, Israel should get MORE money and have less restrictions on engaging the savages. I wish we had a foreign policy that more closely matched Israel. The Muslim savages have had their say and I am of the mind that the Christian's need to have theirs! Fu˘K isolationism!
Israel is the front line against Muslim retardation, unless you really want "full retard" here in the states like it is in Europe, then Israel is your best bet. Labowski, you have obviously never seen the wonders of Islam.
Why should they be 100% our allies? We have screwed them over at any chance we have had ... and our current CIC is a Muslim sympathizer, I would hate us if I were them also. I am surprised that so many of the NY Jewish population votes democrap.
It has actually gotten to a point where I feel t is a toss up whether socialism or Islam will be our downfall. "Cordova" in NY is a very good example!
My fallback plan is in Christian South America. Gonna be a while before they are cool with Islamic "settlers".
Dude, they fired 5 torpedoes at the ship with one hit. That they didn't sink the ship means 2 things: 1. The Israelis are 5th rate, the illusion of their combat preeminence is because the grabasstic dipshit Arabs they face suck; and 2. United States Navy sailors are the best trained and drilled damage control personnel in human history.
The Israelis are only allies in so far as we give them money. They **** us and send us down the river at the slightest hint it might be even remotely advantageous to them. What technology we give them ends up in China in short order. What we don't give them, they attempt to steal, and then sell to the Chinese if they are successful.
I wish the Israelis the best, mainly because their existence pisses off the Arabs, but they aren't in any way, shape, or form our allies. And it's about time they stand on their own two feet. Best comment yet
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 22:13
WillC, I most certainly have seen Islam in Islamic countries while in the Corps and am of the mind that our money belongs at home along with our troops. Israel has been around a long time, long enough that they shouldn't need our weapons, money, and technology. They are also pretty much a socialist state compared to us and their gun laws are contrary to popular belief, very restrictive.
If we stop supporting Israel and get our oil at home, our Islamic problems will go away. I am very certain our Founding Fathers did not envision our country playing Team America, World Police.
I'm a General Smedley Butler kind of guy. You aren't, we disagree, and that's fine.
RGR that on gun control in Israel ... you must be well traveled, and there is no shutting a door that can't be closed, there is no "going away". Islam is a disease as is liberalism.
http://pixdaus.com/pics/fm6EfFyPm5YMf1FUaT.jpg
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 22:48
If you read up on the actual gun ownership laws there, it's pretty surprising.
I correlate tolerance of Islam with big government, political correctness, and this weird need to fix other people's problems before our own, Will. Religious extremism can be combatted by NOT giving these people, our business, blood, and favor. How relevant is Islam without oil and oil money? The Kuwaitis just dissolved parliament and are a sexist monarchy that WE put back into power. Would we have saved them if they were a little shithole without natural resources in say, Africa?
IF you consider gun laws in regards of a population that has a mandatory military service as stricter than ours, you are correct.
Have you been to Kuwait? It has its issues, but for an Islamic government it was very tolerant of the west ( as is Bahrain ) ... I actually saw a woman driving around in an Escalade with a huge NY Yankees sticker on her rear windshield. I don't think Kuwait is going to change post parliament as it is a monarchy with a king that has not been ousted ... now, Tunisia, which has been propped up by the CIA for many years may be more of a greater concern which may be a small part of our interest in Libya.
I've been to all the above.
If we stop supporting Israel and get our oil at home, our Islamic problems will go away. I am very certain our Founding Fathers did not envision our country playing Team America, World Police.
no I am sure they did not but we know our founding fathers had issues with muslims giving us problems and we finally said enough is enough !
so I doubt that considering it has been going on since muslims were around !
started with others sharing the holy land and they wanted it for their own !
hence the crusades ! that was not over oil
and has not stopped since
I am sure you know the idea is if you are not muslim you are to be killed ! their is no room for you with radical islam and it wont matter where you are you are on their planet in their eyes !
and even as our country is concerned we have been at odds with the muslims for over 200 years when they used to attack us and take our people hostage ! back in the Barbary wars and other countries before that !
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 23:36
IF you consider gun laws in regards of a population that has a mandatory military service as stricter than ours, you are correct.
Have you been to Kuwait? It has its issues, but for an Islamic government it was very tolerant of the west ( as is Bahrain ) ... I actually saw a woman driving around in an Escalade with a huge NY Yankees sticker on her rear windshield. I don't think Kuwait is going to change post parliament as it is a monarchy with a king that has not been ousted ... now, Tunisia, which has been propped up by the CIA for many years may be more of a greater concern which may be a small part of our interest in Libya.
I've been to all the above.
I haven't been to Tunisia. I don't think propping up Islamic monarchies is a good idea, do you?
Littlelebowski
12-06-11, 23:37
no I am sure they did not but we know our founding fathers had issues with muslims giving us problems and we finally said enough is enough !
so I doubt that considering it has been going on since muslims were around !
started with others sharing the holy land and they wanted it for their own !
hence the crusades ! that was not over oil
and has not stopped since
I am sure you know the idea is if you are not muslim you are to be killed ! their is no room for you with radical islam and it wont matter where you are you are on their planet in their eyes !
and even as our country is concerned we have been at odds with the muslims for over 200 years when they used to attack us and take our people hostage ! back in the Barbary wars and other countries before that !
The Muslims are giving us problems because of our own meddling. Get our oil here and be done with all of the above.
Not an easy answer ... we still give money to Pakistan and North Korea which I strongly disagree with, and countries such as those should have a clear black and white answer when it comes to foreign aid, others that do serve our interests like Saudi Arabia and Kenya should continue getting aid as long as they are playing the game.
Diplomacy is no easy thing and Israel should be waaaaay down on the list of countries that need to fit in a box for the handouts, our priorities are skewed and we need to fix them, but Israel has a much shorter list of priorities and we should mirror them in many regards ... and we should have for a long time.
The Muslims are giving us problems because of our own meddling. Get our oil here and be done with all of the above.
Muslims have been giving us problems for 1300 years, well before oil was an issue.
I agree get our oil here but it wont change the issues they have with us ?
it might change some of their excuses but again history shows they have had it out for any one or any country not muslim !
if you think not supporting Israel and pumping our own oil is going to make them go away you should read some history ?
again explain to me then how come we used to pay them off hundred of years ago until we said enough is enough !
before oil before Israel
and that is since our countries start before that they were doing other things to other countries !
and again all the way back to their beginning !!!!
again have you read the real history of the crusades and the idea that muslims wanted to OH still want to conqueror the world !! or did you not ever read that ?
guess you and ron paul think they will be our friends if we are nice to them ?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-07-11, 00:34
Wow, this turned into a love/hate Israel fest quicker than I thought.
I'm a Christian, but I always though that Paul squashed the Israel support stigma in Romans when he said the true Israealites, you know...the children of God, were the ones who believed in Jesus. Thats just my interpretation, and its why I see no need to support an entire nation that doesnt support us with their tax dollars as well. We already have a nation like that that we have to support, and its bigger than Israel. That nation is called Chicago, NYC, LA, and every other impoverished welfare hideout.
Just a Jarhead
12-07-11, 03:52
As for the paradoxical zeal the evangelical Christian community has for Israel, the basis for their support is wholly self-serving as it is predicated on sustaining Israel just long enough for the Jews to rebuild the Temple on the Mount and usher in the Apocalypse where they get to do a victory lap and scorn all the damned. If our support is strictly ideological, than our support of Israel seems a tad disproportionate given all the other struggling democracies around the globe that could use a hand up from big brother.
As a Christian, and unapologetic for my deep beliefs, this is all I need to know: Genesis 12, When God made his covenant with Abraham. "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+12&version=KJV
Call me a Christian qook, I could care less. I know what I believe, and why.
Never met anyone who intently studied the bible and slammed it down and said this is bullshit. However, both sadly and ironically, it's always the ones with least amount of biblical knowledge who refute it's validity. Really pathetic. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying that's been the case each and every time that I've encountered a non-believer. Oh they say they've read it but just question them on some of the basics and it's readily apparent they lack knowledge.
You're statement is often correct. However it shouldn't be just Evangelical's that support Israel but anyone who considers themselves a Christian. Many Christians themselves lack knowledge.
The simple fact that Israel has survived for thousands of years, being dispersed around the world by the Romans in 70 A.D. and not having their own nation again until 1948 is in itself an incredible miracle that no other civilization has been able to accomplish and should be enough to convince any student of history that God's hand is involved here. And this itself was even prophecized in the bible thousands of years ago to happen... And it did happen, just as prophecized.
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/the_miracle.htm
I'm not surprised 1 iota at all by the astonishing number of people on psychotic drugs & anti-depressants today. They have no solid foundation, no hope in this crazy world. I'd be on drugs too if I lived in a hopeless world with no knowledge and understanding what it was all about and life had no meaning ...and then you die and rot in the ground. Utterly hopeless! And very sad. I support Israel to my last breath.
Wow, this turned into a love/hate Israel fest quicker than I thought.
I don't think most of the posters critical of America's one-sided relationship with Israel "hate" Israel, I know I surely don't, they just don't see why we are supporting a nation that time and again has seen fit to sell us out in return for the enormous amount of money, technology, and military hardware we give them, especially at a time when we are in serious economic trouble and having a debt crisis.
montanadave
12-07-11, 06:24
People are free to choose their beliefs and others should respect those beliefs. It's just another spin on the Golden Rule: I'll respect your right to believe as you wish and would ask that you extend the same courtesy to me.
Getting back on track, Tom Friedman's column in today's NYT has some interesting insights re: Egypt's recent elections: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/opinion/friedman-egypt-the-beginning-or-the-end.html?_r=1&hp
The key point (as I read it) is Egypt is facing enormous economic challenges with high unemployment, a tanking domestic economy which relies heavily on tourism, and a flailing domestic currency. And while the Islamic Brotherhood and the ultra-conservative Salafis did well in the first round of elections, the majority of Egyptians are far more concerned about restoring Egypt's economy than they are banning alcohol and the internet, or mandating veils for women.
If the Islamists assume a major role in Egypt's governance (and the Army will ultimately decide how much power they actually possess), they will be on a short rope. If they can't get Egypt back to work, they'll likely find themselves looking for work as well. And unlike Khomeini and the subsequent ayatollahs in Iran, the Islamists in Egypt do not have the luxury of relying oil revenues to placate the populace.
Stay tuned. Egypt may well prove to be the bellwether indicating whether Arab Islamists can temper their religious orthodoxy with the economic realities of globalism or whether they will engage in a Sisyphean struggle to turn back the clock to the glory days of Islam, inevitably leaving a legacy of illiteracy, poverty, and hatred fueled by economic inequality.
30 cal slut
12-07-11, 07:49
...
Interesting.
-slut
variablebinary
12-07-11, 07:58
Middle East had problems long before any of us were born.
Anyone that thinks these current middle eastern events are bad slept through most of the 20th century when things were for more hostile and everyone was more willing to go to full on war.
Actually, it was either disable that ship's capabilities to transmit information that WAS BEING INTERCEPTED or fed to their opponents or hope that they do not receive the intelligence in time to thwart the planned preemptive strikes.
So you think the ship was attacked on June 8 to prevent it forwarding information that could have stopped the planned preemptive strikes? Too bad the preemptive strike happened on June 5 huh. Israel was already at war with all it's neighbors by June 8.
Dude, they fired 5 torpedoes at the ship with one hit.
Dude, they attacked it from the air with rockets cannon fire and napalm. Not weapons you would use if you intended to sink a ship.
A premeditated attack would have used appropriate weapons from the beginning and finished the job. The torpedo boats would have pressed home the attack and sunk the damn ship if that was their intent.
crusader377
12-07-11, 13:39
Middle East had problems long before any of us were born.
Anyone that thinks these current middle eastern events are bad slept through most of the 20th century when things were for more hostile and everyone was more willing to go to full on war.
Agree 100%
The Middle East has always had alot of conflicts for thousands of years due to its unique geographic location and being sort of a crossroads for most of the major cultures and civilization through the ages. Historically you not only had the local civilizations competing with each other but also civilizations from N. Africa, Europe, Central Asia, and Persia. Off the top of my head, in the last three or so thousand years the following major civilizations have fought over the Middle East: Babylonians, Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, The Caliphate, Crusaders, Mongols, Mamlukes, Turks, British, French, Russians, Germans, and in the last 50 years all of the Muslim states, Israel, and the United States.
No other area of the world has been such a battleground between so many civilizations and for as such a long period of time as the Middle East.
I think it is very likely that nations will still fight over the middle east long after we are gone.
As a Christian, and unapologetic for my deep beliefs, this is all I need to know: Genesis 12, When God made his covenant with Abraham. "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+12&version=KJV
And this is HALF the reason the problems there will never be resolved. The other half of course is the Arabs have a book that makes similar proclamations and promises and they believe in the authenticity of that book as the literal word of God just as much as you.
Just a Jarhead
12-07-11, 14:36
And this is HALF the reason the problems there will never be resolved. The other half of course is the Arabs have a book that makes similar proclamations and promises and they believe in the authenticity of that book as the literal word of God just as much as you.
I agree. It will never be settled between the Arabs and Jews until the final battle of Armageddon. It's been going on since brothers Jacob (of Abraham, Isaac & jacob) & Esau. Jacob & his descendants went on to form the Israelites and Esau the Arabs. The battle has been brewing for nearly 3000 years. It's just going to keep building & building, getting worse & worse until that final battle, and the whole world will be involved in it. But I contend that it should be settled in Christian minds to support Israel for a multitude of reasons.
Talk about eery and straight out of a Hollywood horror movie, the 12th Imam (or Mahdi), the Muslim Messiah, is eerily similar to the Anti-Christ of the Christian bible. Someone is right and someone is wrong here. Both can't be right. One side stands on the side of good and the other evil. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at both groups and make that decision. It's the age old struggle between good & evil and we're all smack dab in the middle of the battle, like it or not. Know it or not.
http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Antichrist-Shocking-Truth-Nature/dp/1935071122/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323291739&sr=1-1
http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/glenn-beck/transcript/beck-who-12th-imam
I've decided that to avoid rancor and discontent that I'll delete my post.
LL- I understand where you and others are coming from on the foreign aid but I can say for sure that there are many dead terrorists thanks to our aid. I look at it as fewer terrorists meaning a lower probability of a US service member having to go in harms way somewhere to take him out at a later time.
I have been told many good stories of IDF'ers ****ing up terrorists with our weapons. Probably our weapons bought with our money, but I consider that money well spent.
As to Israel not caring about the US, I have to disagree. Most Israeli's hold Americans in a special light and think very highly of us. They truly consider us an ally and friend.
Most have family here.
Have they ran espionage ops. against us? Yeah, but turnabout is fair play. There is a lot of cooperation b/w our intelligence agencies which also brings with it the issue of spying on your friends. It is part and parcel of the biz.
montanadave
12-07-11, 20:03
Looks as though the Egyptian military is showing some reluctance to just handing the keys of the kingdom over to the Islamic Brotherhood and other Islamic fundamentalists:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/egyptian-general-mokhtar-al-molla-asserts-continuing-control-despite-elections.html?_r=1&hp
Looks as though the Egyptian military is showing some reluctance to just handing the keys of the kingdom over to the Islamic Brotherhood and other Islamic fundamentalists:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/egyptian-general-mokhtar-al-molla-asserts-continuing-control-despite-elections.html?_r=1&hp
Looks like CNN could get interesting.
Littlelebowski
12-07-11, 20:29
LL- I understand where you and others are coming from on the foreign aid but I can say for sure that there are many dead terrorists thanks to our aid.
Ever wonder why there are so many Arabs that hate the US?
Ever wonder why there are so many Arabs that hate the US?
NOPE dont need to wonder :)
why wonder when you know history ?
Looks as though the Egyptian military is showing some reluctance to just handing the keys of the kingdom over to the Islamic Brotherhood and other Islamic fundamentalists.
They probably don't want to die when the Islamic Brotherhood starts another war between Egypt and Israel at their earliest convenience.
Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HYanBs3-QE
Ever wonder why there are so many Arabs that hate the US?
Oh yes, many deep discussions with Saudi, Iraqi, Israeli Arabs(yes, thee are more tham 1M) and other Persian and Arab friends while in college. We had many good times together. Chasing pussy was something we all agreed on.
There are simply certain fundamental differences b/w the religions that are never going to be solved.
(Generally)This means Arabs will hate us b/c of our reasoning and we will disagree with their thought processes. There is not going to be a love and peace moment b/w East and West. I have to stand by my values and I fully expect my Islamic friends to stand by theirs. This leads to conflict. I have to stand up for what I believe in so I cannot necessarily be concerned about whether my viewpoint pisses of a Muslim.
VooDoo6Actual
12-10-11, 13:55
Wonder how much alcohol will be consumed worldwide just to make it all go away for a few hours....
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/MerryChrisisandHappyNewFear.jpg
Littlelebowski
12-11-11, 15:14
Oh yes, many deep discussions with Saudi, Iraqi, Israeli Arabs(yes, thee are more tham 1M) and other Persian and Arab friends while in college. We had many good times together. Chasing pussy was something we all agreed on.
There are simply certain fundamental differences b/w the religions that are never going to be solved.
(Generally)This means Arabs will hate us b/c of our reasoning and we will disagree with their thought processes. There is not going to be a love and peace moment b/w East and West. I have to stand by my values and I fully expect my Islamic friends to stand by theirs. This leads to conflict. I have to stand up for what I believe in so I cannot necessarily be concerned about whether my viewpoint pisses of a Muslim.
Do you think the US would have experienced the OPEC oil embargo in '73 and the 9/11 attacks if we hadn't been propping up Israel?
montanadave
12-11-11, 15:55
Do you think the US would have experienced the OPEC oil embargo in '73 and the 9/11 attacks if we hadn't been propping up Israel?
Did you catch Gingrich pandering to the Jewish and evangelical crowd during last evening's debate? He basically said, "**** the Palestinians. They're all terrorists, their claims for statehood, land, diplomatic status, etc. are all illegitimate, and the world community should tell them to go **** themselves." Nothing like pouring a little oil on troubled waters, eh?
If you listen to the likes of Gingrich, Netanyahu, and Ahmadinejad, it makes you want to start looking for real estate in New Zealand.
Do you think the US would have experienced the OPEC oil embargo in '73 and the 9/11 attacks if we hadn't been propping up Israel?
I do not know. This not not a deflection of your question, but hopefully you understand that I do try to put thought into my posts and, unfortunately, transmitting info. this way means I can never really describe the depths of my thoughts or the totality of the logic that brought me to a conclusion. I have considered it(OPEC embargo) and I just don't know; my Arab and Persian friends and I discussed this very issue. As far as 9/11, yes, I do believe this attack would have occurred with or without our support of Israel.
Littlelebowski
12-11-11, 19:45
I do not know. This not not a deflection of your question, but hopefully you understand that I do try to put thought into my posts and, unfortunately, transmitting info. this way means I can never really describe the depths of my thoughts or the totality of the logic that brought me to a conclusion. I have considered it(OPEC embargo) and I just don't know; my Arab and Persian friends and I discussed this very issue. As far as 9/11, yes, I do believe this attack would have occurred with or without our support of Israel.
The oil embargo was a direct response to the US support of Israel during the Yom Kippur War. Not to mention the oil embargo levied because of US support of Israel during the Six Day war of 1967.
I don't know how any rational person that examines the facts can not come to the conclusion that US financial and logistical support of Israel coupled with our country's fixation on military interventionism (we have troops in 170 countries right now) directly brought about the fervent hatred of America in the Middle East.
Israel is a belligerent child on welfare.
Excellent post LL. The CIA defines it as "blowback".
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/05/19/former-head-of-cias-osama-unit-backs-up-rep-ron-paul/
Michael Scheuer, the former head analyst at the CIA’s bin Laden unit, has weighed in on the controversy surrounding the Republican Presidential debate held Tuesday May 15, when Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) stated that American foreign policy was a “contributing factor” in the 9/11 attacks.
“They attack us because we’ve been over there; we’ve been bombing Iraq for 10 years.” Paul said. He was then denounced by former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani who said it was “absurd” and that he’d “never” heard such a thing before demanding a retraction.
In an interview with Antiwar.com’s Antiwar Radio on May 18, Scheuer, who was the head analyst at the CIA’s bin Laden unit, Alec Station, and authored the books Through Our Enemies Eyes and Imperial Hubris, said “I thought Mr. Paul captured it the other night exactly correctly. This war is dangerous to America because it’s based, not on gender equality, as Mr. Giuliani suggested, or any other kind of freedom, but simply because of what we do in the Islamic World – because ‘we’re over there,’ basically, as Mr. Paul said in the debate.”
Scheuer also agreed with Dr. Paul’s statement in the debate that the war in Iraq was a diversion from capturing or killing Osama bin Laden and that bin Laden was “delighted” that the U.S. is occupying Iraq as it has become a training ground and recruiting tool for new jihadists joining the movement.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-11-11, 23:05
Anyone out there who operates under the assumption that the majority of terrorists who hate us, hate us because of the following reasons are really just ignorant.
A: Freedom, baseball, and apple pie
B: We are God fearing Christians, every one of us
C: They just hate democracy...those monsters
There is a deep hatred for our interventionist policies, our occupier strategy, and our support for what they see as a terrorist nation (IM NOT SAYING ISRAEL IS). I dont care if you have friends from the area who say they hate us for religious reasons, I have friends from America that say stupid shit, but I dont have to listen to what they say either.
Id ****ing hate the country that poked its nose into my shit constantly, bombed the shit out of cities, and supported my enemies too. Does that mean I support our enemies, hell no, but I can understand where they come from, which should be something we all should be able to say.
again look at history they dont like us any thing current is a excuse !
even the early years of our country we had issues with them and had to constantly pay them off for the slavery and kidnapping etc.. they did
and that again was the birth years of our country ! and yet even before the US they hated and did things to the French and English etc..
basically all the way back to when they started thinking they were the best on earth and all others shall die who do not convert
if any of you think its cause of current policy you are kidding yourself !!!! read your history people this just happens to be the CURRENT EXCUSE they can use and that is it !
if you think we quit supporting Israel and it all goes away for us !!!! really you think that !!
Littlelebowski
12-12-11, 06:27
Did you catch Gingrich pandering to the Jewish and evangelical crowd during last evening's debate? He basically said, "**** the Palestinians. They're all terrorists, their claims for statehood, land, diplomatic status, etc. are all illegitimate, and the world community should tell them to go **** themselves." Nothing like pouring a little oil on troubled waters, eh?
If you listen to the likes of Gingrich, Netanyahu, and Ahmadinejad, it makes you want to start looking for real estate in New Zealand.
You're pretty locked on for not being from Wyoming :D
Littlelebowski
12-12-11, 06:47
Honu, do you know why the Iranians hate us? It's not just "Muslims hating freedom" or some tripe like that; it's a direct result of us propping up the Shah for so long. In other words, the US supporting another petty dictator for oil. Oil and Israel are the only reasons we go war in the Middle East.
Now, say it with me: "our troops are deployed in one hundred seventy countries.". You're fine with that? You don't think ceasing our petty meddling in other country's affairs and perhaps getting our own oil here would change how America is viewed and targeted?
This "war on terrorism" (how can you make war on a tactic?) has done ****all for our security except make it worse. Our freedom and our money has directly suffered. Bin Laden won.
Remember what a twice awarded Medal of Honor Marine General said:
There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.
Smedley Butler
no not OK with the war ? never said that I am just saying most of those people over there just need a excuse that's IT no other reason and they just choose whats current
I also think if we do go to war with these people we go in full force kick butt and not play games and be so PC etc.. its a frigin joke what the gov and higher ups do these days
I do believe we protect ourselves and do what we need to do to make sure nobody screws with us
I am a huge WWII person and look at that war with massive countries all out war on a insane level and it was 6 years with all the big players and here we are fighting some terrorist group then this group then over here etc.. and for how many years now ? we kicked the Japanese and the Germans and they were super powers ? why cause we did not hold back and be so PC etc.. in basic quick terms
I still say wars like Vietnam was when the politic screwing came into play and Korea was the launching learning pad that got us into Vietnam in the sense it became political more than we needed to WWII we got pushed in by Pearl Harbor but we kinda saw the writing on the wall
not sure the history you know of when our country was first starting up how much we used to pay off back then with the piracy crap but it was major ! so again nothing new here just new excuses and has been going on in one form or other on and off since our country was founded and before that it was on many of the countries we came from had issues ?
Iranians had issues with us back in the 1800s even !
while we had a OK relationship on and off in history I would never say the Iranians were friends of ours so its not some recent thing ?
montanadave
12-27-11, 19:46
In response to President Obama's preparations to sign more stringent economic sanctions on Iran, Iran's first vice-president (apparently considered a senior Iranian official) issued a warning today that Iran will block all oil shipments through the Strait of Hormuz.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/world/middleeast/iran-threatens-to-block-oil-route-if-embargo-is-imposed.html?_r=1&hp
Excerpt from the article cited above:
"Apparently fearful of the expanded sanctions’ possible impact on the already-stressed economy of Iran, the world’s third-largest energy exporter, Mr. Rahimi said, 'If they impose sanctions on Iran’s oil exports, then even one drop of oil cannot flow from the Strait of Hormuz,' according to Iran’s official news agency. Iran just began a 10-day naval exercise in the area."
Iran should be careful. Most people don't realize that they lack refining capabilities and we can easily blockade the strait and screw them.
In response to President Obama's preparations to sign more stringent economic sanctions on Iran, Iran's first vice-president (apparently considered a senior Iranian official) issued a warning today that Iran will block all oil shipments through the Strait of Hormuz.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/world/middleeast/iran-threatens-to-block-oil-route-if-embargo-is-imposed.html?_r=1&hp
Excerpt from the article cited above:
"Apparently fearful of the expanded sanctions’ possible impact on the already-stressed economy of Iran, the world’s third-largest energy exporter, Mr. Rahimi said, 'If they impose sanctions on Iran’s oil exports, then even one drop of oil cannot flow from the Strait of Hormuz,' according to Iran’s official news agency. Iran just began a 10-day naval exercise in the area."
wild_wild_wes
12-27-11, 22:31
do you know why the Iranians hate us?
Because they are muslims? "Islam has bloody borders"; so the saying goes...pretty bloody inside, too. The underlying defect is intrinsic to their whole belief system. For instance, the concept of Jihad. "Love thy neighbor"?...lol, not so much. Just look at what happened to the Armenians who lived alongside them for centuries...then, genocide, without provocation. Hate is woven through their whole religion. So trying to Blame America First as you are doing is simply incorrect.
The remedy is sooooo simple: No force projection, no forward deployed units anyhwere in the world, no freedom of navigation excercises. While we're at it, let's not support any of our allies, for that would be sticking our noses where they dont belong, they can fend for themselves. Entangling alliances and all that. England? So sorry you're on your own. Germany? Eff you Jerry. Australia? Bad day, mate.
Let's just curl up into a little ball and pretend that the world is a better place when the United states doesn't get involved in anything militarily.
Muslims will hate us due to thier faith. Us being in one of thier inconsequential countries is merely a pretext for expressing it openly. Thier faith demands it, and demands that we be converted. Well, eff that. No pre-emtion? That's a fine idea.........if you're an utter moron on foriegn policy.
Any argument that tries to convnce me that it's our fault that the "world " hates us is BS, completely and utterly.
I may be wrong about this, but we were also using the Shah as a buffer to continuing Soviet influence in the region. The Soviets were very cozy in the region (Syria, Egypt, India, Pakistan) and we were concerned about them cutting off or sucking up oil in the region.
We then have an overthrow of the government (Iran) coupled by a Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Things have to be looked at in context to the time.
Honu, do you know why the Iranians hate us? It's not just "Muslims hating freedom" or some tripe like that; it's a direct result of us propping up the Shah for so long. In other words, the US supporting another petty dictator for oil. Oil and Israel are the only reasons we go war in the Middle East.
Now, say it with me: "our troops are deployed in one hundred seventy countries.". You're fine with that? You don't think ceasing our petty meddling in other country's affairs and perhaps getting our own oil here would change how America is viewed and targeted?
This "war on terrorism" (how can you make war on a tactic?) has done ****all for our security except make it worse. Our freedom and our money has directly suffered. Bin Laden won.
Remember what a twice awarded Medal of Honor Marine General said:
Honu, do you know why the Iranians hate us? It's not just "Muslims hating freedom" or some tripe like that; it's a direct result of us propping up the Shah for so long. In other words, the US supporting another petty dictator for oil. Oil and Israel are the only reasons we go war in the Middle East.
(The following is not written in support of the coup that the cia helped with, which was probably a mistake. It is meant to provide context)
It is not that simple. Do a little research. The existing leader (PM) before the incident that the brits started and we participated in that put the Shah in charge as head of state instead of constitutional monarch was prone to authoritarianism (at the end), sympathetic to the communists, and had a large group of the populace against him and in the army as well. He dissolved parliament, and held a new cycle of elections which he manipulated through fraud (getting 99.x% of the vote). The Shah was the constitutional monarch and dismissed the primer minister. Yes, it was part of a plan by the british and the CIA against a backdrop of the cold war. For the Americans, it was mostly about being a bulwark against the Soviet Union. For the British, it was mostly about protecting their oil assets, as the PM who was overthrown was not interested in negotiations on the subject.
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php
Belmont31R
12-28-11, 23:46
(The following is not written in support of the coup that the cia helped with, which was probably a mistake. It is meant to provide context)
It is not that simple. Do a little research. The existing leader (PM) before the incident that the brits started and we participated in that put the Shah in charge as head of state instead of constitutional monarch was prone to authoritarianism (at the end), sympathetic to the communists, and had a large group of the populace against him and in the army as well. He dissolved parliament, and held a new cycle of elections which he manipulated through fraud (getting 99.x% of the vote). The Shah was the constitutional monarch and dismissed the primer minister. Yes, it was part of a plan by the british and the CIA against a backdrop of the cold war. For the Americans, it was mostly about being a bulwark against the Soviet Union. For the British, it was mostly about protecting their oil assets, as the PM who was overthrown was not interested in negotiations on the subject.
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php
Yes there is context behind the brits and us (USA) propping up the Shah. I am sure you can find context in any action we have taken, and somewhere there is a government doc giving reasoning.
I personally think, since so much of this oil goes to the western European nations, they should be the ones to handle it if they so choose. Where are the western European warships in the Gulf? We've been providing their physical, fiscal, and now energy for decades at the cost of the US tax payer all the while being ridiculed in the UN and other international formats for far too long. Socialism was allowed to breed in Europe because our capitalist system allowed for huge military expenditures keeping these nations safe. I would like to see at least 2/3rds of western Europe commit to extended hostilities in Iran before we ever start a war with them. We can be allies but not their umbrellas against all the evil in the world.
Yes there is context behind the brits and us (USA) propping up the Shah. I am sure you can find context in any action we have taken, and somewhere there is a government doc giving reasoning.
I personally think, since so much of this oil goes to the western European nations, they should be the ones to handle it if they so choose. Where are the western European warships in the Gulf? We've been providing their physical, fiscal, and now energy for decades at the cost of the US tax payer all the while being ridiculed in the UN and other international formats for far too long. Socialism was allowed to breed in Europe because our capitalist system allowed for huge military expenditures keeping these nations safe. I would like to see at least 2/3rds of western Europe commit to extended hostilities in Iran before we ever start a war with them. We can be allies but not their umbrellas against all the evil in the world.
I tend to agree with you on this. I am not for action in Iran myself. Military action in today's world will always be a failure due to expectations of the populace framing the ROE such that you cannot win.
My comments are to point out that we just did not go willy nilly into some country whose government had unanimous support of the people and install a dictator to grab their oil. Of course, every action will have consequences (what some people label blowback). Actions always beget reactions. That does not mean that the initial action was wrong or misguided using the context of the time.
There is this guy, his name is Clausewitz, he wrote a book, it was called "On War". He knew a lot about war, probably more than anyone on the forum and more than most of our political "leaders". He made the observation "War is the continuation of policy by other means".
A lot of people take that quote out of context. What he meant was war is what we do when politicians and diplomats have failed. Good foreign policy and strategic vision it what keeps a nation out of war. Our foreign policy is very bad and has been bad for many decades. Most of our current problems today are from our previous failures to decisively end wars in a timely manner, poorly defined conditions for victory, AND a complete lack of coherent foreign policy and national strategic vision.
Why do we have a military and what do we want to use it for? At the national level we cannot answer that question.
All the same, this is little more than an intellectual exercise. You see, around 2016 Obama care will kick in at full effect. At that moment about on half of our budget will go toward funding it. Soc Security/SSI will go untouched and we will be forced to cut our "defense" budget by 2/3. We will then be forced to pull back from the rest of the world.
As we adopt a European style economy we will end up with a European style military.
Oh, and Ron Paul is crazy, and a racist....
U.S. Military Sales to Iraq Raise Concerns - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/middleeast/us-military-sales-to-iraq-raise-concerns.html
----
We aren't gone a week or two and things are going into the toilet.
-
Tick, tock... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8983631/Strait-of-Hormuz-standoff-continues-as-Iran-films-US-aircraft-carrier.html
Afghanistan, Taliban, Night Raids, ISI
http://www.thedailybeast.com//content/newsweek/2011/12/25/afghan-taliban-on-night-raids-new-explosives-the-isi-peace.html
-----
Just a Jarhead
12-31-11, 04:48
Tick, tock... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8983631/Strait-of-Hormuz-standoff-continues-as-Iran-films-US-aircraft-carrier.html
Iran threatening to block the Strait of Hormuz for a week now and Ron Paul fanboi's on here will still see no problem with Iran having nukes. Simply Friggin amazing! Anyone who thinks this is unfit to lead a dogsled in the Alaskan Wilderness!
I haven't a clue how some people get to be so clueless and void of wisdom. Well, I do know, but that's another topic. Reading across various threads on this forum, I can't help but point out that it runs along the lines that one can't help but notice that many, if not most (not all) of the RP fans are the atheists/agnostics on this board. Not trying to derail just pointing out a glaringly obvious observation. Correlation? I say most definietly. Lack of wisdom. Intelligence and wisdom are not mutually inclusive of each other! They never have been. A Rocket Scientist can have a 0.0 wisdom quotient!
ETA: IMHO
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-31-11, 05:41
Iran threatening to block the Strait of Hormuz for a week now and Ron Paul fanboi's on here will still see no problem with Iran having nukes. Simply Friggin amazing! Anyone who thinks this is unfit to lead a dogsled in the Alaskan Wilderness!
I haven't a clue how some people get to be so clueless and void of wisdom. Well, I do know, but that's another topic. Reading across various threads on this forum, I can't help but point out that it runs along the lines that one can't help but notice that many, if not most (not all) of the RP fans are the atheists/agnostics on this board. Not trying to derail just pointing out a glaringly obvious observation. Correlation? I say most definietly. Lack of wisdom. Intelligence and wisdom are not mutually inclusive of each other! They never have been.
ETA: IMHO
Ahh, a very logical and well thought response from "Just a Jarhead". Your moniker suits you well. "You dont like my candidate, so you must not like Jesus...and I think you're dumb! Take that RP fans. **** democracy, nah nah nah boo boo." Classic.
montanadave
12-31-11, 08:08
Iran threatening to block the Strait of Hormuz for a week now and Ron Paul fanboi's on here will still see no problem with Iran having nukes. Simply Friggin amazing! Anyone who thinks this is unfit to lead a dogsled in the Alaskan Wilderness!
I haven't a clue how some people get to be so clueless and void of wisdom. Well, I do know, but that's another topic. Reading across various threads on this forum, I can't help but point out that it runs along the lines that one can't help but notice that many, if not most (not all) of the RP fans are the atheists/agnostics on this board. Not trying to derail just pointing out a glaringly obvious observation. Correlation? I say most definietly. Lack of wisdom. Intelligence and wisdom are not mutually inclusive of each other! They never have been. A Rocket Scientist can have a 0.0 wisdom quotient!
ETA: IMHO
And, if one surveys the broader landscape, it would appear a lot of the saber-rattlers and chicken-hawks spend a considerable amount of time burnishing their bona fides as devout followers of the Prince of Peace.
How ironic.
Littlelebowski
12-31-11, 08:48
And, if one surveys the broader landscape, it would appear a lot of the saber-rattlers and chicken-hawks spend a considerable amount of time burnishing their bona fides as devout followers of the Prince of Peace.
How ironic.
Well said. A bit better than my "Team Murrica, **** yeah, we decide what other countries can have, derp derp derp!" that first came to mind reading the last few posts in this thread.
Littlelebowski
12-31-11, 09:03
Iran threatening to block the Strait of Hormuz for a week now and Ron Paul fanboi's on here will still see no problem with Iran having nukes. Simply Friggin amazing! Anyone who thinks this is unfit to lead a dogsled in the Alaskan Wilderness!
I haven't a clue how some people get to be so clueless and void of wisdom. Well, I do know, but that's another topic. Reading across various threads on this forum, I can't help but point out that it runs along the lines that one can't help but notice that many, if not most (not all) of the RP fans are the atheists/agnostics on this board. Not trying to derail just pointing out a glaringly obvious observation. Correlation? I say most definietly. Lack of wisdom. Intelligence and wisdom are not mutually inclusive of each other! They never have been. A Rocket Scientist can have a 0.0 wisdom quotient!
ETA: IMHO
You are arguing that religion equals intelligence. In grammatically correct and moving prose, no less.
Sigh.....
And, if one surveys the broader landscape, it would appear a lot of the saber-rattlers and chicken-hawks spend a considerable amount of time burnishing their bona fides as devout followers of the Prince of Peace.
How ironic.
Or the classic "Who would Jesus bomb?"
Look, all of you guys supporting Pax American, Imperial America, the NWO and the status quo can get all of the war you want. Just get your favorite "christian conservative" gop to vote for it on the floor of congress, declare war and there you have it!
Perhaps we should try the Socratic method?
Question 1 - Why do we have a military and what do we want to use it for?
TurretGunner
12-31-11, 11:36
Iran threatening to block the Strait of Hormuz for a week now and Ron Paul fanboi's on here will still see no problem with Iran having nukes. Simply Friggin amazing! Anyone who thinks this is unfit to lead a dogsled in the Alaskan Wilderness!
I haven't a clue how some people get to be so clueless and void of wisdom. Well, I do know, but that's another topic. Reading across various threads on this forum, I can't help but point out that it runs along the lines that one can't help but notice that many, if not most (not all) of the RP fans are the atheists/agnostics on this board. Not trying to derail just pointing out a glaringly obvious observation. Correlation? I say most definietly. Lack of wisdom. Intelligence and wisdom are not mutually inclusive of each other! They never have been. A Rocket Scientist can have a 0.0 wisdom quotient!
ETA: IMHO
Its not how its when. Nuclear tech is 70 years old. It is not hard for even a regional power to have the resorces to pull it off. Khan was a classic example. All he did was give them the lat 10% the needed to make functional weapons. We have spent so much on non proliferation over the years and it has done little. Iran will have the bomb one day. Good. Reconize that and move on.
Most Persians (Iranians) identify with westerners much more than Arabs. They were on there way to being a western power before the revolution is 79. I dont hate the Iranian people, and frankly can understand where they are coming from on some issues.
How would you like Russian to invade canada and setup a soccialist state (Joke I know), and influece power in the North America? The crazies in power and just holding on. Persians will one day overthrow this government and move into the 21st century. It is not our place or in our interest to interfere with that.
wild_wild_wes
12-31-11, 11:44
Do a little research. It is not that simple.
In their minds, it is...
TurretGunner
12-31-11, 11:45
The remedy is sooooo simple: No force projection, no forward deployed units anyhwere in the world, no freedom of navigation excercises.
While we're at it, let's not support any of our allies, for that would be sticking our noses where they dont belong, they can fend for themselves. Entangling alliances and all that. England? So sorry you're on your own. Germany? Eff you Jerry. Australia? Bad day, mate. Sounds good to me. Unless one of our closest Allies is attacked (GB/Australia/Canada) then **** them. If they want to Pay us for our expenses and losses then maybe. US Serviceman typicaly do not sign up to fight for another countries flag, I sure as hell didn'y.
Let's just curl up into a little ball and pretend that the world is a better place when the United states doesn't get involved in anything militarily.
Muslims will hate us due to thier faith. Yea, Nice line.....more BS........I guess thats why there are so many terrist attacks and murders by muslims here in the US. Let me give you a hint, its not about the religion.
Us being in one of thier inconsequential countries is merely a pretext for expressing it openly. Thier faith demands it, and demands that we be converted. How many Muslims are knocking on doors trying to get people to convert? Now how many christains and Mormons are? Not even a comparison.
Well, eff that. No pre-emtion? That's a fine idea.........if you're an utter moron on foriegn policy. Funny how so many other modern countires dont have the problems we do. Being the bully is only going to get you so far untill either everyone turns on you or a tougher kid comes in and knocks you the **** out.
Any argument that tries to convnce me that it's our fault that the "world " hates us is BS, completely and utterly. Your right, its all them. The US has done nothing that would adversely affect the way other countries feel about us. We have never invaded, created insurgencies, and influenced political , economical, and militarty being of other sovern nations that were not in a state of war with us.
Heads in the Sand.
Indeed.
Can anyone explain to me why Russia, China and Switzerland do not have the same problems we do with terrorism or Iran?
Interesting article. Thanks Hop! http://rt.com/news/iran-us-war-military-005/
A key sign of impending war is an article just published in the January/February 2012 issue of Foreign Affairs, the official journal of the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). It carried the ominous title of Time to Attack Iran: Why a Strike Is the Least Bad Option, by Matthew Kroenig. This man was, until last July, special advisor to the Pentagon for “Defense Strategy on Iran” – Newspeak for “let’s beat the hell out of Iran”.
The CFR is the key Global Power Elite think-tank, founded in 1919 together with its London sister organization, the Royal Institute of International Affairs (also known as Chatham House). Its more than 4500 members are deeply embedded into the uppermost echelons of public and private power in the US, controlling banking, industry, media, academia, the military and government.
Key government posts are always controlled by one of their lot, irrespective of whether the Democrats or Republicans are in power. The CFR is integrated into an intricate network of similar organizations that includes the Trilateral Commission, Brookings Institution, American Enterprise Group, Project for a New American Century, Bilderberg and others. They all operate in streamlined coordination, consistency, synchronization and – most important – with a common purpose.
Just a Jarhead
12-31-11, 13:10
Indeed.
Can anyone explain to me why Russia, China and Switzerland do not have the same problems we do with terrorism or Iran?
You're kidding right? Aside from the obvious long history of terror inflicted on the people by their rulers (excuse me, Leaders) you mean? and then it almost always involves Muslims.
China's war on terrorism http://www.google.com/search?q=terrorism+in+china&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
Russia's war on terrorism http://www.google.com/search?q=terrorism+in+russia&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
In regard to Switzerland, yes let's all be neutral pacifist like the Swiss and see how the world ends up. If it wasn't for the U.S. (those dirty stick their nose in everything louses) the Swiss would be Nazi's and part of Third Reich today just like the rest of Europe. Switzerland was able to remain independent temporarily due to economic concessions to Germany, The Swiss Banks extended credit to the Third Reich and it's only because larger events during the war delayed an invasion of Switzerland. There were plans (drawn up) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum to invade Switzerland by the Nazi's and it would have happened eventually and ultimately had Hitler not been stopped.
TurretGunner
12-31-11, 13:34
You're kidding right? Aside from the obvious long history of terror inflicted on the people by their rulers (excuse me, Leaders) you mean? and then it almost always involves Muslims.
China's war on terrorism http://www.google.com/search?q=terrorism+in+china&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
Russia's war on terrorism http://www.google.com/search?q=terrorism+in+russia&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
In regard to Switzerland, yes let's all be neutral pacifist like the Swiss and see how the world ends up. If it wasn't for the U.S. (those dirty stick their nose in everything louses) the Swiss would be Nazi's and part of Third Reich today just like the rest of Europe. Switzerland was able to remain independent temporarily due to economic concessions to Germany, The Swiss Banks extended credit to the Third Reich and it's only because larger events during the war delayed an invasion of Switzerland. There were plans (drawn up) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum to invade Switzerland by the Nazi's and it would have happened eventually and ultimately had Hitler not been stopped.
So how many russians and chineese have died in the last 10 years fighting terrorism? How many Hundreds of Billions have they spent that they dont have?
Just a Jarhead
12-31-11, 14:39
So how many russians and chineese have died in the last 10 years fighting terrorism? How many Hundreds of Billions have they spent that they dont have?
Not exactly a fair question since the Islamic Jihadist have had their hands full with the U.S. ripping them another butt hole the last 10 years.
But from 1979-1989 the Soviets had their hands full fighting the Mujahideen (Separatist)(Islamic Jihadist) in Afghanistan in which Osama Bin Laden was a major organizer & financier. 28,906 Soviets were killed in action. Same 10 year period in Iraq & Afghanistan combined we've lost (regrettably) 4,977.
Yes I'm fully aware that the U.S. supported the Mujahideen as part of the Regean Doctrine. Primarily support for anti-Soviet movements around the globe including Angola and Nicaragua. We hated the Soviets then and we still do now.
And China has a massive growing terrorism problem that is sure to only get larger. This is a Muslim Jihadist problem around the globe with the Muslims wanting a capliphate and sharia law. China's Muslim problems are mounting just like all of Europe's. There have been Muslim terrorist attack in Bali, Madrid, London, etc.
http://dr.ntu.edu.sg/bitstream/handle/10220/3938/RSIS-COMMENT_113.pdf?sequence=1
Muslim Jihad in China. Many eyebrows would be raised when we talk of a Muslim Jihad against China. When did that happen? We never hear about Muslim rule in China. Yes, there was a Muslim invasion of Western China. As there was of Persia, India, Byzantium, Spain, Balkans, etc.http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/china/forum/topics/jihad-against-chinese-650751-1
http://www.peaceopstraining.org/theses/giglio.pdf
And yes, even peaceful Canada has a mounting Muslim problem. According to recent government statements Islamic terrorism is biggest threat to Canada. http://www.google.com/search?q=islamic+terrorism+in+canada&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
So you all just keep blaming the U.S. I'll keep lovin her and reconginizg her as the greatest thing that ever happened to planet earth. This is a Muslim problem not a U.S. problem.
montanadave
12-31-11, 14:59
So you all just keep blaming the U.S. I'll keep lovin her and reconginizg her as the greatest thing that ever happened to planet earth.
:rolleyes:
Puhleeze! Could you sound like a more sanctimonious sod?
Just a Jarhead
12-31-11, 15:02
:rolleyes:
Puhleeze! Could you sound like a more sanctimonious sod?
It is what it is and I call them like I see them. This forum is full of the Ron Paul blame America crowd. I'm not one of them. I realize someone saying they love America deeply offends your type. I'll hold my tongue since I don't want to get banned. But you already know what I think of you and your ilk.
TurretGunner
12-31-11, 16:46
I gave up on blind patriotism a long time ago. I hold everyone accountable, including my country and my countryman.
This country is largley responsibile for the messes that it is in. Maybe not directly or 100% culpable, but you reap what you sow. 100 Years of failed foriegn policy and the law of unintended consequences have gotten us to this point.
I have no problem killing everyone who threatens this country. But if we are going to do it, then balls to the wall total war, or nothing. Anything short of geonocide and mass killing is going to keep this mess going. The country does not have the stomach or will to do this, so I would rather be left the **** alone and focus on trying to make my little world a better place for those around me.
Anyone who cannot admit that is lying to themselves and is there to serve their master overloads.
ETA: Jarhead, anyone can use Google to find information that supports their claims. Let me ask you this, is 5,000+ American Lives , Tens of thousands of Multiliated vets, and over $1 Trillion dollars worth it? Like the War on Drugs, this will be another failed policy that will continue because the idiots in power can use it to grow stronger. Everyday more of your rights are stripped away in the name of this bullshit.
-Those who would trade temporary security for freedom, deserve neither.
wild_wild_wes
12-31-11, 19:16
This country is largley responsibile for the messes that it is in. Maybe not directly or 100% culpable, but you reap what you sow. 100 Years of failed foriegn policy and the law of unintended consequences have gotten us to this point.
Why do you single the U.S. out? Why only go back 100 years? The world is the way it is because of the humans living in every country. Do you really think the U.S. is more responsible for the world's woes than Imperial Germany, Russia, The British Empire, Imperial Japan, France, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, North Korea, or Russia were?
A sense of proportion, please.
Littlelebowski
12-31-11, 19:40
Why do you single the U.S. out? Why only go back 100 years? The world is the way it is because of the humans living in every country. Do you really think the U.S. is more responsible for the world's woes than Imperial Germany, Russia, The British Empire, Imperial Japan, France, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, North Korea, or Russia were?
A sense of proportion, please.
Reread what he wrote. He's talking about our woes, not the world's.
yeah, but this is a little different. Russia is in an election year and they have bee sabre rattling as well. The EU is on the verge of bankruptcy so it's going to take an act of god to get them to mobilize. The UN? We are the UN and NATO, and WB......etc.
We're broke, spread thin, and have a lot shi going on domestically!
Sounds like the opening to a Euro version of Red Dawn.
Reread what he wrote. He's talking about our woes, not the world's.
This is exactly what the RP fanatics and fanbois don't get. The world is so interconnected, for better or for worse, that our woes and the worlds woes are one big pile of steaming sh*t. You really cannot disentangle the two.
While I am sympathetic to some of the RP ideas of minding our own business, I am afraid that the rest of the world's business is unfortunately also our business due to the interconnectedness.
And the fact that while we may naively pull back and put up a wall around us, figuratively speaking, those other countries in the world that have other ideas will take advantage of that to gain advantage and possibly do us harm. Just because we disengage, does not mean the others will disengage. They will see it as a sign of weakness to be taken advantage of.
So, for better or worse, simply disengaging is not the solution and will not work. That does not mean that the principle is wrong. Just that reality gets in the way.
We do need to modify what we do in the world, and basing it on the principles of disengagement might work if we do it smartly (and watching where we leave ourselves open so we can cover it). (I am not saying a RP level of disengagement as that is just naive and unrealistic but the principles behind it are not necessarily wrong)
Just a Jarhead
01-01-12, 07:27
This is exactly what the RP fanatics and fanbois don't get. The world is so interconnected, for better or for worse, that our woes and the worlds woes are one big pile of steaming sh*t. You really cannot disentangle the two.
While I am sympathetic to some of the RP ideas of minding our own business, I am afraid that the rest of the world's business is unfortunately also our business due to the interconnectedness.
And the fact that while we may naively pull back and put up a wall around us, figuratively speaking, those other countries in the world that have other ideas will take advantage of that to gain advantage and possibly do us harm. Just because we disengage, does not mean the others will disengage. They will see it as a sign of weakness to be taken advantage of.
So, for better or worse, simply disengaging is not the solution and will not work. That does not mean that the principle is wrong. Just that reality gets in the way.
We do need to modify what we do in the world, and basing it on the principles of disengagement might work if we do it smartly (and watching where we leave ourselves open so we can cover it). (I am not saying a RP level of disengagement as that is just naive and unrealistic but the principles behind it are not necessarily wrong)
Exactly and well said! The world is full of bullies. Always was, always will be. There is only one way to keep them (and any bully) in check and that is to carry a bigger stick at all times and be willing to use it. We disenage from the world at our own inevitable peril. When we finally wake up and realize that disengaging was a critical mistake, it will be too late. Thankfully most understand this. Even Obama and his admin. are starting to fully understand this. They didn't at first. (gawwwdd that killed me to say). Ron Paul and his fans don't! Voting between O and RP...a decision I hope I never have to make. That is how seriously wrong and dangerous I think RP truly is, not only for our nation, but for the world.
Littlelebowski
01-01-12, 07:47
I cannot distinguish between big govt interventionist "conservatives" and big govt liberals. Be sure to assure us how borrowing Chinese money to fund two wars is a good idea and how the PATRIOT Act is for our own good, JAJ. Send me me some pics from the Creationist Musuem while you're at it.
montanadave
01-01-12, 08:21
I certainly don't count myself as a Ron Paul "fanboi" and, as previously stated, I think a President Paul would find himself running a largely impotent and ineffectual executive branch completely isolated from the political power structure in Washington.
That said, I do think Paul is bringing something very valuable to the national debate. Russ Douthat's op-ed piece in today's NYT expresses some of my views on Ron Paul nicely: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/opinion/sunday/douthat-Pariahs-and-Prophets.html?_r=1
An excerpt from the article:
"There’s often a fine line between a madman and a prophet. Perhaps Paul has emerged as a teller of some important truths precisely because in many ways he’s still as far out there as ever.
The United States is living through an era of unprecedented elite failure, in which America’s public institutions are understandably distrusted and our leadership class is justifiably despised. Yet politicians of both parties are required, by the demands of partisanship, to embrace the convenient lie that our problem can be pinned exclusively on the other side’s elites — as though both liberals and conservatives hadn’t participated in the decisions that dug our current hole.
In this climate, it sometimes takes a fearless crank to expose realities that neither Republicans nor Democrats are particularly eager to acknowledge.
In both the 2008 and 2012 campaigns, Paul has been the only figure willing to point out the deep continuities in American politics — the way social spending grows and overseas commitments multiply no matter which party is in power, the revolving doors that connect K Street to Congress and Wall Street to the White House, the long list of dubious policies and programs that both sides tacitly support. In both election cycles, his honest extremism has sometimes cut closer to the heart of our national predicament than the calculating partisanship of his more grounded rivals. He sometimes rants, but he rarely spins — and he’s one of the few figures on the national stage who says “a plague on both your houses!” and actually means it."
There are plenty of folks in this country who see through the perpetual clown circus of partisan poo-flinging which passes for political discourse these days and yearn for someone to steal the bully pulpit and speak truth to power. Ron Paul, for all his faults (and they are considerable), has tapped into that desire.
The world is full of bullies. Always was, always will be. There is only one way to keep them (and any bully) in check and that is to carry a bigger stick at all times and be willing to use it.
And all of our foreign policy woes come from a failure of diplomacy, lack of a national strategic vision, an unwillingness to end wars decisively, and the fact we as a nation are a squeamish about using the level of violence necessary to cause the effect that we claim to seek.
We would not even be talking about a nuclear armed North Korea if Truman took MacArthur's advice and dropped 65 atomic bombs along the boarder with China. We would not be talking about a nuclear Iran if Carter supported the Shaw. We would have have the disaster in the making in Iraq if the hive mind of Bush/Rove/Cheney was willing to COMPLETELY clear Sadr City. And so on and so forth, one bumbling foreign policy disaster after another. We like to start wars, we are just not so keen on properly ending them.
Our own Civil War ended when the CSA signed terms of surrender at Appomattox Court House. WWII ended after we nuked Japan TWICE and then had them sign terms of surrender on the Missouri. What is the decisive event that will cause AQ to surrender? How is Iraq going to end? Is Iraq really 'over' or will we be back there in 10 years just like we came back after the First Gulf War? And who is the 'enemy' anyway? What bully are we going to defeat? And so too with Afghanistan. Are we willing to go to war with the nuclear armed Pakistan to make the ISI stop killing our troops?
I cannot distinguish between big govt interventionist "conservatives" and big govt liberals. Be sure to assure us how borrowing Chinese money to fund two wars is a good idea and how the PATRIOT Act is for our own good, JAJ. Send me me some pics from the Creationist Musuem while you're at it.
And this is what they do not understand. The govt big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have. A govt that is big enough and powerful enough send troops all over the world for decades on end and maintain a robust domestic surveillance program, is the same govt that is big to give you 'free' Universal Healthcare. Big govt is big govt.
Remember, the Founders viewed govt as a necessary evil and likened it to fire. They wanted small, hot, and easily contained - like a forge. What we have now a raging out of control wildfire that just destroys everything in it's path. The big govt Dems like it to burn in one direction and the big govt Gops like it to burn in another direction. None of them are talking about bringing this wildfire under control.
Mauser KAR98K
01-01-12, 10:38
Indeed.
Can anyone explain to me why Russia, China and Switzerland do not have the same problems we do with terrorism or Iran?
In regards to Russia: they have had more people/soldiers killed, murdered, blown up, and kidnapped due to Wannabi Chechens than we have.
In regards to Russia: they have had more people/soldiers killed, murdered, blown up, and kidnapped due to Wannabi Chechens than we have.
The War in the North Caucasus is a de facto civil war that is the result of the collapse of the USSR. It is a real shooting war that has an asymmetrical element - much like our own problems in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Chechens were absorbed into the USSR by Stalin and want to return to being an independent republic. Imagine if you will, that all of the Mexicans in Texas decided they wanted to break away and become part of Mexico again. By the way, that may happen...
TurretGunner
01-01-12, 13:50
You have two types in the country:
Those that believe all the bullshit they were fed growing up how AMERICA is the greatest thing to ever grace the earth. They bought into the same propogada that the Soviets, Nazis, and Chineese fed to their population. They believe the shit that comes out of the GOP and the Liberal Media, because they never learned to think for themselves. Some of them are so brainwashed by the church that they will take their stances blindly And if you think we have never committed attrocites then take a look into the Philipenses after the Spanish War. I Still cannot fathom how they like us even after WW2. Some people are more forgiving then others
Then you have those who don't believe the bullshit. Ones who have, and are willing to fight for their country, even though everyday there is less worth fighting for. Is this country, in its current state, worth saving? That's for you to decide. I sure as **** do not intend to be one of its pawns to keep select few rich and in power. How about you?
Littlelebowski
01-01-12, 14:22
Rick Santorum is saying he would threaten air strikes against Iran.....
Littlelebowski
01-01-12, 14:26
Looking forward to the justification for striking Pakistan and north Korea in this thread.
I highly suggest watching this 20 minute interview with Michael Scheuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer), former head of the OBL CIA unit. http://youtu.be/JBtXmN2ZoEw
Here's an article written by Michael Scheuer on foreign policy and Ron Paul. http://lewrockwell.com/scheuer/scheuer12.1.html
Here is an extremely interesting article that just came out about what the head of Mossad says the impact of Iran with nukes is, as well as demonstrating how RP is right about the US telling Israel how it can defend itself. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mossad-chief-nuclear-iran-not-necessarily-existential-threat-to-israel-1.404227
A nuclear-armed Iran wouldn't necessarily constitute a threat to Israel's continued existence, Mossad chief Tamir Pardo reportedly hinted earlier this week.
Looking forward to the justification for striking Pakistan and north Korea in this thread.
Because they have nuclear weapons?
Actually, North Korea only does not quite have nukes yet.
Pakistan does have nukes, maybe 100 or more. Oh, and the Pakistani ISI is responsible for the death of US soldiers. Sort of like how Iran gave EFP's to Iraqi insurgents.
wild_wild_wes
01-01-12, 17:01
Those that believe all the bullshit they were fed growing up how AMERICA is the greatest thing to ever grace the earth.
America is the best country ever to function on the Earth. Please tell me one you think is better.
Some of them are so brainwashed by the church
LOL, I'm an Atheist.
TurretGunner
01-01-12, 17:22
I highly suggest watching this 20 minute interview with Michael Scheuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer), former head of the OBL CIA unit. http://youtu.be/JBtXmN2ZoEw
Here's an article written by Michael Scheuer on foreign policy and Ron Paul. http://lewrockwell.com/scheuer/scheuer12.1.html
Here is an extremely interesting article that just came out about what the head of Mossad says the impact of Iran with nukes is, as well as demonstrating how RP is right about the US telling Israel how it can defend itself. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mossad-chief-nuclear-iran-not-necessarily-existential-threat-to-israel-1.404227
He also wrote a book back around 2003 called Imperial Hubris. Great book. Talks about how the US gov litteraly ****ed up the whole war on terror and afganistan campgaign on purpose. Sickening
TurretGunner
01-01-12, 17:24
Because they have nuclear weapons?
Actually, North Korea only does not quite have nukes yet.
Pakistan does have nukes, maybe 100 or more. Oh, and the Pakistani ISI is responsible for the death of US soldiers. Sort of like how Iran gave EFP's to Iraqi insurgents.
Honestly, You guys saw my possition. I would have no problem with a B61 being dropped on allotabad. 500 KT of canned sunshine would actualy show the world we will ****ing kill you if you harbor these ****ers. Same thing should have happened to Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
Just a Jarhead
01-02-12, 05:43
Those that believe all the bullshit they were fed growing up how AMERICA is the greatest thing to ever grace the earth.
God help us when we expect the likes of you and your mentality of hate/blame America to protect and defend us. We can only hope you remain an extreme minority. I never knew any Marines during my enlistment that felt this way. Not one! The overwhelming majority of recruits join the Marine Corps and try to become a United States Marine for one reason...absolute love of this country. Perhaps the world has changed so dramatically the last 15 years. God help us! Had this sentiment been prevalent during the major world wars, or prevalent today, I suspect the outcome would have been significantly different. How can you defend something wholeheartedly that you don't believe in and love to the core? For every American, and for yourself, I would strongly suggest when your enlistment period is up that you choose another career path. We'll probably find you at some future Occupy Rally burning the American flag. No "devil dog" to be found here, look elsewhere folks.
How would the world look without America?
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,104122,00.html
A British perspective (2 minute video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY
From the eyes of a Russian filmmaker(about 25 minutes in total):
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkOe9v8_XDc
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze6kGWcyk0o
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8zSoqCHVv0
Another British view:
British view: A world without America would be an evil place ..."if the USA was an empire, it was the best God-damn empire the human race had ever produced."....personally I think a world without America would be a barbaric, violent, anarchic, evil place.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/9835957/A_world_without_America_would_be_an_evil_place/
And it would be. I'm outright disgusted at the crap I hear on these boards. From the number of atheist to the blame America crowd. I hope this is not highly representative of today's military or the men in our country. If it is, we are soooo ****ed at some point. Very disheartening.
Littlelebowski
01-02-12, 09:23
God help us when we expect the likes of you and your mentality of hate/blame America to protect and defend us. We can only hope you remain an extreme minority. I never knew any Marines during my enlistment that felt this way. Not one! The overwhelming majority of recruits join the Marine Corps and try to become a United States Marine for one reason...absolute love of this country. Perhaps the world has changed so dramatically the last 15 years. God help us! Had this sentiment been prevalent during the major world wars, or prevalent today, I suspect the outcome would have been significantly different. How can you defend something wholeheartedly that you don't believe in and love to the core? For every American, and for yourself, I would strongly suggest when your enlistment period is up that you choose another career path. We'll probably find you at some future Occupy Rally burning the American flag. No "devil dog" to be found here, look elsewhere folks.
How would the world look without America?
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,104122,00.html
A British perspective (2 minute video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY
From the eyes of a Russian filmmaker(about 25 minutes in total):
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkOe9v8_XDc
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze6kGWcyk0o
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8zSoqCHVv0
Another British view:
British view: A world without America would be an evil place ..."if the USA was an empire, it was the best God-damn empire the human race had ever produced."....personally I think a world without America would be a barbaric, violent, anarchic, evil place.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/9835957/A_world_without_America_would_be_an_evil_place/
And it would be. I'm outright disgusted at the crap I hear on these boards. From the number of atheist to the blame America crowd. I hope this is not highly representative of today's military or the men in our country. If it is, we are soooo ****ed at some point. Very disheartening.
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any more simplistic in your reasoning, you amaze me once more. Let's review your sophomoric, jingoistic reasoning:
-disagreeing with America's interventionist foreign policies and allowing for the wild idea that said policies greatly contribute to terroristic actions against America means we hate America (derp derp).
-atheists are just eeeevul, right?
I will tell you what. Do not question my patriotism because my lack of belief in the supernatural. I'll put my 8 years of service as an Marine grunt up against yours any time and you would do well not to shoot your mouth off on such idiotic, unrelated tangents around me should we ever meet in person.
God help us when we expect the likes of you and your mentality of hate/blame America to protect and defend us.
American foreign policy is the creation of individuals, some of them elected, some of them not. Just because you hate the decisions made by policy makers does not mean you hate America.
Right now, America is being run by Obama and his kind. I can only assume that you think Obama is great and you fully support his policies.
CarlosDJackal
01-02-12, 10:02
You have two types in the country:
Those that believe all the bullshit they were fed growing up how AMERICA is the greatest thing to ever grace the earth. They bought into the same propogada that the Soviets, Nazis, and Chineese fed to their population. They believe the shit that comes out of the GOP and the Liberal Media, because they never learned to think for themselves. Some of them are so brainwashed by the church that they will take their stances blindly And if you think we have never committed attrocites then take a look into the Philipenses after the Spanish War. I Still cannot fathom how they like us even after WW2. Some people are more forgiving then others
Then you have those who don't believe the bullshit. Ones who have, and are willing to fight for their country, even though everyday there is less worth fighting for. Is this country, in its current state, worth saving? That's for you to decide. I sure as **** do not intend to be one of its pawns to keep select few rich and in power. How about you?
You missed a third: those of us who grew up elsewhere and immigrated into these United States. You have absolutely no idea how good we have it here. Yeah, you can visit another country and you can even live there for a spell. But you will never know what it is like to be a part of other societies.
Also, as someone who did grow up in the Philippines, the reason the United States and especially its Veterans are generally held in such high regard by Filipinos is because we actually appreciate the sacrifices they made during World War 2.
Unlike you and the French we recognize the ultimate sacrifices that were made by American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines in driving out the Japanese military who committed atrocities that the United States have yet to even come close to in its 200-year history. I'm not talking about the neutered documentation that are widely available. I'm talking about the real incidents as told to me by those who were there (my Father was a survivor of the Battle for Bataan, the Bataan Death March and the POW camp at Camp O'Donnel).
IMHO, sheeple use the current state as an excuse to give up on the US and stop serving. I have seen this same situation in the early 1990s when Klinton neutered the very same military that Dubya had to shore up (and this current moron is once again working to neuter).
I have almost 28-years of combined service and I have seen our country's peaks and valleys. Even with the warts we have, we still have the best that the world has to offer, and I have lived as a citizen of three different countries.
I wish whiners like you would just get the heck out of the way of those of us who still have faith in America's eventual ability to right itself. You're almost as bad as the obamists who has proven that they would love for the US to become as screwed up as Greece is.
But then again, nothing worthwhile is ever easy otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort. JM2CW.
TurretGunner
01-02-12, 11:44
You missed a third: those of us who grew up elsewhere and immigrated into these United States. You have absolutely no idea how good we have it here. Yeah, you can visit another country and you can even live there for a spell. But you will never know what it is like to be a part of other societies.
Also, as someone who did grow up in the Philippines, the reason the United States and especially its Veterans are generally held in such high regard by Filipinos is because we actually appreciate the sacrifices they made during World War 2.
Unlike you and the French we recognize the ultimate sacrifices that were made by American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines in driving out the Japanese military who committed atrocities that the United States have yet to even come close to in its 200-year history. I'm not talking about the neutered documentation that are widely available. I'm talking about the real incidents as told to me by those who were there (my Father was a survivor of the Battle for Bataan, the Bataan Death March and the POW camp at Camp O'Donnel).
IMHO, sheeple use the current state as an excuse to give up on the US and stop serving. I have seen this same situation in the early 1990s when Klinton neutered the very same military that Dubya had to shore up (and this current moron is once again working to neuter).
I have almost 28-years of combined service and I have seen our country's peaks and valleys. Even with the warts we have, we still have the best that the world has to offer, and I have lived as a citizen of three different countries.
I wish whiners like you would just get the heck out of the way of those of us who still have faith in America's eventual ability to right itself. You're almost as bad as the obamists who has proven that they would love for the US to become as screwed up as Greece is.
But then again, nothing worthwhile is ever easy otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort. JM2CW.
Tell me how America is going to right itself? Just awsner me this one question. Do you honestly believe that things will get better? Do you think there will not be a massive power grab after all our rights are eroded? Tell me what you think, and you will prove me point for me.
ETA: I served 8 years in the army, almost 2 of them in a combat zone. I'll put my service next to yours in a ****ing Pepsi challenege anyday. You lived in a shitty country, congraduations there are about 200 of them. Does not mean that the USA needs to go down the shitter like the rest of the ****ed up world. But it will so I guess this is for nothing.
TurretGunner
01-02-12, 11:50
You missed a third: those of us who grew up elsewhere and immigrated into these United States. You have absolutely no idea how good we have it here. Yeah, you can visit another country and you can even live there for a spell. But you will never know what it is like to be a part of other societies.
Also, as someone who did grow up in the Philippines, the reason the United States and especially its Veterans are generally held in such high regard by Filipinos is because we actually appreciate the sacrifices they made during World War 2.
Unlike you and the French we recognize the ultimate sacrifices that were made by American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines in driving out the Japanese military who committed atrocities that the United States have yet to even come close to in its 200-year history. I'm not talking about the neutered documentation that are widely available. I'm talking about the real incidents as told to me by those who were there (my Father was a survivor of the Battle for Bataan, the Bataan Death March and the POW camp at Camp O'Donnel).
IMHO, sheeple use the current state as an excuse to give up on the US and stop serving. I have seen this same situation in the early 1990s when Klinton neutered the very same military that Dubya had to shore up (and this current moron is once again working to neuter).
I have almost 28-years of combined service and I have seen our country's peaks and valleys. Even with the warts we have, we still have the best that the world has to offer, and I have lived as a citizen of three different countries.
I wish whiners like you would just get the heck out of the way of those of us who still have faith in America's eventual ability to right itself. You're almost as bad as the obamists who has proven that they would love for the US to become as screwed up as Greece is.
But then again, nothing worthwhile is ever easy otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort. JM2CW.
Maybe you should read up on your own countries history. Its clear the education system from the country you emigrated from is severley lacking. Its hard to take you seriously when you show such ignorance. I guess the mass murder of Phillpenos to the tune of 20K soldiers and around 1Million civilans who just wanted freedom. The same freedom that the USA claimed they were giving them from the Spanish. Only to agree to terms with the Spanish and take over in their place
Go read a book, you might learn something:
http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Cruise-Secret-History-Empire/dp/0316008958
While your reading that you can also learned how we empowered the Japenesse to embark on their imperialism and sold out our Korean and Chineese Allies at the time. Great way to get WW2 in the pacific rolling and piss what would become the largest country in the world. I guess you still dont understand why the rest of the world doesnt like us and our policies of meddling in their shit?
wild_wild_wes
01-02-12, 16:07
Maybe you should read up on your own countries history. Its clear the education system from the country you emigrated from is severley lacking. Its hard to take you seriously when you show such ignorance.
You are telling a Phillipino he doesn't know his own history. How did you get so damn bigoted and self-righteous? You sound just like a Democrat. In fact you seem like the typical Ugly American you seem to hate so much.
Go read a book, you might learn something
lolz
I guess you still dont understand why the rest of the world doesnt like us and our policies of meddling in their shit?
Right, we should just leave people like Putin, Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot, Chavez, Ceauşescu, Saddam Hussein, Mao, etc. alone so they can massacre and destroy. Musn't "meddle", the world will be a better place; why, who the hell do we think we are to think we have a right to tell them what to do? After all, America is not perfect, so we have no right to criticise anyone about anything. We suck.
I share the same observation as Just a Jarhead: I saw nothing like you when I was in the Marines. My, how times change.
DeltaSierra
01-02-12, 16:12
Y
Right, we should just leave people like Putin, Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot, Chavez, Ceauşescu, Saddam Hussein, Mao, etc. alone so they can massacre and destroy.
You certainly didn't help your credibility any when you lumped Putin and Chavez in with the Mao and Pol Pot...
Maybe you should go read a history book...
Just a Jarhead
01-02-12, 17:43
I will tell you what. Do not question my patriotism because my lack of belief in the supernatural. Nobody did this. I simply stated I found it disgusting how many atheist (and blame America contingent) were on this board. You erroneously put the 2 together. No one ever said you were unpatriotic because you are atheist. You may have a slight comprehension problem from what I can tell.
I'll put my 8 years of service as an Marine grunt up against yours any time and you would do well not to shoot your mouth off on such idiotic, unrelated tangents around me should we ever meet in person.
Ohhh an Internet pissing contest..how fun and grown-up like. I read this and just laughed out loud. I'm not a man who fears much and it's certainly not the godless, soulless, walking dead already. You don't know me, as I don't know you. Your blind bravado simply makes you look silly & childish. It's always advisable not to make assumptions with little to no facts. You'd make a terrible lawyer.*****
Littlelebowski
01-02-12, 18:01
I share the same observation as Just a Jarhead: I saw nothing like you when I was in the Marines. My, how times change.
JAJ says you're one of the soulless, godless, walking dead. Because you're an atheist :D
Seriously you can't make this shit up.
I was in the Corps '95-2004. I saw plenty like myself. Some are even on this board.
Just a Jarhead
01-02-12, 18:09
JAJ says you're one of the soulless, godless, walking dead. Because you're an atheist :D
Seriously you can't make this shit up.
I was in the Corps '95-2004. I saw plenty like myself. Some are even on this board.
"divide & conquer"...how brilliantly Machiavellian of you.
Littlelebowski
01-02-12, 18:13
"divide & conquer"...how brilliantly Machiavellian of you.
More like "point and laugh" :D
I'll just bet you think the Earth is only 6,000 years old too.
Littlelebowski
01-02-12, 18:15
If you find is so disgusting that atheists are on this board, you might want to find somewhere else to go, JAJ. Seriously. You whining about folks not sharing your religious beliefs on a gun forum is nothing more than shrill, wasted air.
TurretGunner
01-02-12, 18:49
If you find is so disgusting that atheists are on this board, you might want to find somewhere else to go, JAJ. Seriously. You whining about folks not sharing your religious beliefs on a gun forum is nothing more than shrill, wasted air.
I know right, this dude is a bag of laughs. It always ends up being the religious crusaders who want to assure their religious dominance over anyone else.
Want to know the #1 reason the Middle east is so ****ed up? Its called religion.
Bolt_Overide
01-02-12, 20:02
Tell me how America is going to right itself? Just awsner me this one question. Do you honestly believe that things will get better? Do you think there will not be a massive power grab after all our rights are eroded? Tell me what you think, and you will prove me point for me.
ETA: I served 8 years in the army, almost 2 of them in a combat zone. I'll put my service next to yours in a ****ing Pepsi challenege anyday. You lived in a shitty country, congraduations there are about 200 of them. Does not mean that the USA needs to go down the shitter like the rest of the ****ed up world. But it will so I guess this is for nothing.
well the first thing we need to do is get people like yourself to emigrate the **** out.
Littlelebowski
01-02-12, 20:08
well the first thing we need to do is get people like yourself to emigrate the **** out.
What is your basis for this specifically? What belief system should I adhere to for you to allow me to stay? Apparently honorabl emilitary service isn't good enough for you............
Chill out on the personal attacks and focus on the subject matter.
wild_wild_wes
01-02-12, 20:39
Yeah! Y'all acting like you're from the Middle East or something!
Bolt_Overide
01-03-12, 00:34
What is your basis for this specifically? What belief system should I adhere to for you to allow me to stay? Apparently honorabl emilitary service isn't good enough for you............
My basis is, if you dont think we have the greatest nation on earth, regardless of the myriad of bullshit currently going on, you should leave and go where ever it is you think is the greatest.
Our political leaders, while they may get to make the decisions that effect our great nation the most, do not represent what the american people are. And I still beleive, at their core, that the american people are the bravest and most generous people on earth.
wild_wild_wes
01-03-12, 19:23
I will now invite the "Blame America First" crowd to explain the Bali bombing (islamic terrorism) and the Mumbai assault (more islamic terrorism).
Littlelebowski
01-03-12, 20:09
I will now invite the "Blame America First" crowd to explain the Bali bombing (islamic terrorism) and the Mumbai assault (more islamic terrorism).
Oh damn, you're right. Now we need to invade a few more places. See you at the recruiter's office? Infantry, right? Let's go wipe out Islam!
TurretGunner
01-03-12, 20:43
Oh damn, you're right. Now we need to invade a few more places. See you at the recruiter's office? Infantry, right? Let's go wipe out Islam!
He's right. The christians have never committed attrocittes or what we would consider in modern day to be terrorism!
wild_wild_wes
01-03-12, 21:11
Now we need to invade a few more places.
Not my point, and you know it. Your non-response is illuminating.
montanadave
01-03-12, 21:20
Oh damn, you're right. Now we need to invade a few more places. See you at the recruiter's office? Infantry, right? Let's go wipe out Islam!
Onward Christian soldiers!
As a gesture a good faith, I will guard the home front, comfort your women, and provide scrupulous management of your 401(k) accounts. :no:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.