View Full Version : Sighting-in issue?
I sighted my Noveske in today. 1" low at 25 yards.
I then had the range-officer fire a group through it. I chose not to sight in using a rest. He chose to use a rest/sled. I noted his group was to the left of mine. Both were ragged holes (I was pleased to note that my ragged hole group off the magazine as a monopod was ever so slightly tighter :P ).
I then fired a group off the rest, and noted that my group was up and to the right of where it should have been from when I sighted in just using the magazine as a monopod. So I jettisoned the sled, and went back to using the mag as a monopod. Got a 3 shot ragged hole right where it should have been.
Now, I know with my Benelli M4 using slugs, recoil WILL affect where your shots go if you are not holding on the same each time. However, I had thought that with the 5.56, it was not nearly as important. Certainly not .75-1" movement at 25 yards important.
Am I wrong?
I sight in the weapon how I plan to use it. If I'm standing, it will be "close enough". If I am prone using the mag as a monopod, then that will be how it will be. I will never in my life employ this weapon from a sled against a deer, hog, or assailant. So I did not employ one sighting it in.
Are my findings "normal"?
*rant on*
Also, I am OCD somewhat (those of you who have seen my posts before), and it annoys the hell out of me that the TROY BUIS will not allow fine enough adjustment for me to center the group the way I want left/right. It is always going to shoot slightly left with the BUIS I have come to "accept". *sigh* *rant off*
I guess by sighting in you mean BZO? I would also be using a minimum of 5 shots to do your zero and if you want to get a better feel for your weapon I suggest several 10 round groups instead.
If that Troy doesn't work for you get the LMT chopped rear BUIS.
I guess by sighting in you mean BZO? I would also be using a minimum of 5 shots to do your zero and if you want to get a better feel for your weapon I suggest several 10 round groups instead.
If that Troy doesn't work for you get the LMT chopped rear BUIS.
The Troy has done well as a whole, I think part of my issue may be that I am shooting at a blurry red circle using a blurry black post. The range was poorly lit. When I shot at a line on the target, it was dead-on left/right. I just lined the red and black blurs up and squeezed off some shots. The range was indoors and very poorly lit. I just looked up the specs, and each click is .33" at 100 yards on an M4. I highly doubt that adjustment coarseness is my problem. It's a user/environmental issue, reflecting on it some more. I don't think the LMT BUIS would fit under my ACOG, though. Would it?
I used 5 shot groups to sight the weapon in. However, after firing 3 into a ragged hole about .2" CTC I figured that that's where it was pointing, and so jettisoned the rest, and fired another 3. They tore a ragged hole right where they had previously, before I used the rest.
That said, I did my own test with LaRue's QD mount. I took it off and put it back on after each shot in a 5-shot group, then compared it to one I shot with it on the whole group. The one where I took it off was slightly larger, as I broke stride to perform that action, but it was centered right with the other one. I blame user shortcoming for increase in group size.
I really need to get on a 2-300 yard out-door range to fine-tune things, I know. I just want to hit paper and maybe adjust a click or two and be on when I finally do get the time.
I wouldn't put those Troy sights on a pellet gun. Your POI will almost always be different from the next guy's... when talking irons.
Iron sight Zeros are unique to the individual.
I wouldn't put those Troy sights on a pellet gun. Your POI will almost always be different from the next guy's... when talking irons.
Iron sight Zeros are unique to the individual.
What would you recommend?
Poi differed with the acog. Other guy did not shoot irons.
Probably KAC on the sights, but if you have an ACOG, the Troy's will do fine as backups.
The magnified ACOG is not a parallax free sight like an Aimpoint, meaning that if you have different head/eye position in relation to the reticle from the range officer, your POI will differ. Also, when you change your shooting position (from say, prone to standing) that changes your cheekweld, stock position, and probably your eye position, so again you experience a slight shift in POI.
If at all possible, back up to at least 50yds for your BZ with your irons. 25 is close enough that it won't pick up slight deviations that will magnify at range.
Like Gunz said. Those LMT rear buis can be found cheap on Ebay.
Or a cut down LMT/BCM/Colt carry handle. Those Troy sights keep popping up in problem threads all over the internuts.
Like Gunz said. Those LMT rear buis can be found cheap on Ebay.
Or a cut down LMT/BCM/Colt carry handle. Those Troy sights keep popping up in problem threads all over the internuts.
I have not seen this, what kind of issues? I don't think a cut down or lmt will play nice with my ta44.
I have not seen this, what kind of issues? I don't think a cut down or lmt will play nice with my ta44.
Ususally the guy will come on and say..... Gee I have to dial 17 clicks to get my rifle zeroed. Is my barrel/FSB canted?
NO! You bought a crappy rear sight!!!
I wouldn't run a buis mounted with an ACOG. Just a carry handle in your pack/gear/belt.
davidjinks
12-06-11, 08:30
OP
I would recommend the KAC 200-600m BUIS for the rear. Probably one of the best flip up rear sights I have used.
They are low enough profile that your ACOG will clear them. They will also give you your adjustments that you're looking for.
I'd also recommend the 10 shot groups for doing a zero. I got away from the 3-5 round groups and found that shooting the 10 round groups have helped me out significantly.
Wow. Did not know this about Troy. Mine only took half a dozen or so clicks to get it to within 1/4 inch of dead-on left/right. To correct that 1/4" or so, I need an outdoor range. I guess I got a good set? Are there any other issues with the Troy than the machining one that doesn't seem to be an issue with my set?
Eurodriver
12-06-11, 09:24
I have never ran into any issues with my four sets of Troy folding BUIS's, front and rear.
What the heck are you guys talking about?
Ususally the guy will come on and say..... Gee I have to dial 17 clicks to get my rifle zeroed. Is my barrel/FSB canted?
NO! You bought a crappy rear sight!!!
I wouldn't run a buis mounted with an ACOG. Just a carry handle in your pack/gear/belt.
I thought Troys were a "must have"? Now I don't feel so bad about not spending the $119 that the rear sight cost. And I was also torn between the Troy fixed rear and DD A1.5 for my next build but I think I'm gonna go with the DD.
eternal24k
12-06-11, 09:35
Troy BUIS being crap is certainly news to me
I've always found sighting in can vary depending on the individual due to differences in vision, body/eye position and other factors. I use a PRI rear buis and it works fine for my needs.
Eurodriver
12-06-11, 09:53
Troy BUIS being crap is certainly news to me
Consider the source. Markm hates folding sights. :dance3:
Aside from all the suggestions previously stated, which I agree with, I have to wonder about your not using a rest.
With all my rifles, I use a sled or vice if possible. For zeroing, even BZ, I want to take the shooter out of it as much as possible. Get the weapon zeroed, THEN practice without any rest. Once it's zeroed, I know any shift in POI or groups size is shooter error.
Aside from all the suggestions previously stated, which I agree with, I have to wonder about your not using a rest.
With all my rifles, I use a sled or vice if possible. For zeroing, even BZ, I want to take the shooter out of it as much as possible. Get the weapon zeroed, THEN practice without any rest. Once it's zeroed, I know any shift in POI or groups size is shooter error.
My groups with and without the rest were very similar. Ragged holes. Apparently, with the rest, the POI also shifts in a way that I have not seen it shift during any other situation. I found that odd with the 5.56, but it was what I saw. Got almost a .75" shift.
arizonaranchman
12-06-11, 13:30
Troy BUIS being crap is certainly news to me
No problems here with mine. That's all my guns have on them as BUIS. Aimpoints and Troys.
I think there were some reported issues with some Troy sights. Mine have been more than adequate for me since they are a BUIS.
St.Michael
12-06-11, 18:14
How are the Daniel Defense irons then? Troys are garbage now? That sucks to hear.
I wouldn't put those Troy sights on a pellet gun.
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Troy BUIS being crap is certainly news to me
Consider the source. Markm hates folding sights. :dance3:
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Hmmm...Wonder how MarkM feels about LWRC rifles? :D
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How are the Daniel Defense irons then? Troys are garbage now? That sucks to hear.
Troy's are fine.....they had a bad batch some time ago that got out with canted bases but that issue was resolved quite some time ago last I saw.
Don't overlook the PRI sights as they make a good product too.
ForTehNguyen
12-06-11, 18:32
*rant on*
Also, I am OCD somewhat (those of you who have seen my posts before), and it annoys the hell out of me that the TROY BUIS will not allow fine enough adjustment for me to center the group the way I want left/right. It is always going to shoot slightly left with the BUIS I have come to "accept". *sigh* *rant off*
even at 50 yards, each click on the troy rear is a 1/4" of movement (.5 MOA), thats finer than most iron sights. The front sight elevation isnt as fine, but thats because a standard AR15 sightpost has quarter turn increments, each click about 3/4 to 1 inch of movement.
But remember these are irons, not precision scopes. You can get plenty combat accurate on irons. Im pretty OCD as well when it comes to zeroing
Failure2Stop
12-06-11, 23:51
The Troy has done well as a whole, I think part of my issue may be that I am shooting at a blurry red circle using a blurry black post. The range was poorly lit. When I shot at a line on the target, it was dead-on left/right. I just lined the red and black blurs up and squeezed off some shots.
The front sight should be in perfect focus and centered in the rear aperture when shooting for precision.
Troy folding rear sights are wholly acceptable (to me) as a back-up system when a primary system will not permit a fixed rear. No, they are not as adjustable as other designs, but they work well enough. There were/are some with issues, but given their widespread use, the number of failures are pretty low.
The front sight should be in perfect focus and centered in the rear aperture when shooting for precision.
Troy folding rear sights are wholly acceptable (to me) as a back-up system when a primary system will not permit a fixed rear. No, they are not as adjustable as other designs, but they work well enough. There were/are some with issues, but given their widespread use, the number of failures are pretty low.
I know, but it was hard to do in the near dark. The range I go to is lit about like the outdoors in the woods 30 minutes before sunset. Everything is in dark shadow.
viperashes
12-07-11, 07:37
EDIT: Basically said the same thing F2S said.
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