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LRB45
12-06-11, 07:51
My 16 year old son wants me to buy an AR lower for him for Christmas. My wife/his stepmom doesn't know if that is a good idea because the lower would be bought in my name as a present to him.

Is there anything that I should know concerning any laws or ownership of a lower by my son? Do I purchase the lower and somehow transfer ownership over to him?

Also what brand of complete lower is the absolute best deal going?

Thanks for any ideas!

markm
12-06-11, 07:55
I've bought my kid guns before. An AR wouldn't be any different than a 10/22.

As far as the legal part goes.... I don't know. As long as the kid isn't a future Columbiner... who cares?

djegators
12-06-11, 07:56
It may be a difficult question to answer on a national forum as the laws vary from state to state.

Grizzly16
12-06-11, 08:04
Gun transfers vary from state to state. Where are you located?

Amicus
12-06-11, 08:14
My 16 year old son wants me to buy an AR lower for him for Christmas. My wife/his stepmom doesn't know if that is a good idea because the lower would be bought in my name as a present to him.

Is there anything that I should know concerning any laws or ownership of a lower by my son? Do I purchase the lower and somehow transfer ownership over to him?

Also what brand of complete lower is the absolute best deal going?

Thanks for any ideas!

Rock bottom age for transfer is 18 under federal law. Depending on your son's state of residence or domicile, some jurisdictions allow for younger, but federal law will trump that. Some states require that the recipient be older (usually 21).

Best deal on complete AR lowers? Can't say.

markm
12-06-11, 08:18
Rock bottom age for transfer is 18 under federal law.

Yep. It truly won't be the kid's gun til he's 18. But is there anything MORE American than buying a kid a firearm???

davidjinks
12-06-11, 08:18
OP

Look into your state's laws on "Gifting" a firearm. Many states have this, some don't.

markm
12-06-11, 08:19
I should clarify...

I wouldn't go buying someone else's kid a gun. :eek:

LRB45
12-06-11, 08:27
I live in Nebraska and as far as I know 18 years of age probably is when they can purchase their own gun, not sure on handguns for age.

Might have to talk to county sheriff who is a big time AR shooter and see what if anything would be unlawful I guess.

Grizzly16
12-06-11, 08:27
I should clarify...

I wouldn't go buying someone else's kid a gun. :eek:

It is his kid.

And if anyone wants to buy my son a weapon I'm ok with that. Mom's new husband got him a 22 mag bolt action for his 1 month birthday. Made me happy to know he'd have a good rifle to learn with when he is ready.

Amicus
12-06-11, 08:30
Yep. It truly won't be the kid's gun til he's 18. But is there anything MORE American than buying a kid a firearm???

Markm: I agree, but there are a lot of reasons to not officially/legally transfer anything to minors under contract and family law (not just federal criminal statutes). Cars are another example of items tht are usually better off under adult ownership (unless you want to disown the kid, and I've seen that done a few times).

davidjinks
12-06-11, 08:41
Here ya go OP...

ATF Q&A section:


Q: May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)?
Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

Make sure your state allows "Gifting" a firearm to a minor child. That should be pretty easy to find...

LRB45
12-06-11, 08:43
Just got off the phone with local sheriff office. He said it would be just like any other firearm purchase, excluding handguns, and my name would be on the purchase paperwork and then I could gift it to my son.

Now just need to decide on what brand lower to get.

BIGUGLY
12-06-11, 10:22
get it for him and then when he is old enough to own legally sell it to him for a dollar.

I have atleast 3 guns that were gifts from my dad, they were mine to use and became mine when I was old enough to own them. Now if he would just give me that damn Colt Commander.

rackham1
12-06-11, 10:28
Just got off the phone with local sheriff office. He said it would be just like any other firearm purchase, excluding handguns, and my name would be on the purchase paperwork and then I could gift it to my son.

Now just need to decide on what brand lower to get.

16 year olds grab their rifles and run off without their parents to shoot squirrels and the fridge someone dumped at the gravel pit. The sheriff's deputy rolls up, checks on things, and moves on. But if the rifle is an AR-15 then you're putting a lot of faith in the deputy's comfort level.

I personally suggest you gift the AR just like you want to, but your "official" story is "Son, this is yours, but you can only shoot it with me at the range until you're xx years old." Probably already your plan, but felt it important to put in the thread.

I'd get a blemished BCM lower from Grant. Best deal going.

Raven Armament
12-06-11, 10:33
Stop. An AR15 lower is an "other firearm" (ie not a rifle and not a shotgun), therefore it, just like handguns must transfer to someone 21yo or older. Putting a stock on a lower does not make it a long gun. It's still a receiver.

The gifted firearm must be a compete rifle or complete shotgun. It cannot be a receiver or frame, with or without stock attached.

davidjinks
12-06-11, 10:39
So, you're saying all this from experience or something? All of them do it?

And you know that the OP's son would do something like this?

What makes you think a deputy would treat anyone different at 16 whether it's an AR or pistol or shotgun or squirrel rifle?



16 year olds grab their rifles and run off without their parents to shoot squirrels and the fridge someone dumped at the gravel pit. The sheriff's deputy rolls up, checks on things, and moves on. But if the rifle is an AR-15 then you're putting a lot of faith in the deputy's comfort level.

I personally suggest you gift the AR just like you want to, but your "official" story is "Son, this is yours, but you can only shoot it with me at the range until you're xx years old." Probably already your plan, but felt it important to put in the thread.

I'd get a blemished BCM lower from Grant. Best deal going.

Shabazz
12-06-11, 10:55
Your kid can legally own a gun or a car or a house etc. But possession and use are a separate matter. State law will dictate when your son can use his rifle if not in the presence of an adult.

SomeOtherGuy
12-06-11, 12:07
Stop. An AR15 lower is an "other firearm" (ie not a rifle and not a shotgun), therefore it, just like handguns must transfer to someone 21yo or older. Putting a stock on a lower does not make it a long gun. It's still a receiver.

The gifted firearm must be a compete rifle or complete shotgun. It cannot be a receiver or frame, with or without stock attached.

This is correct as far as who an FFL can transfer a lower to. I don't believe it is correct as far as the transfer from a private person who is not an FFL holder. As you know, handguns can only be sold by an FFL to someone who is 21+, but in many states they can be legally purchased in a private sale (not from an FFL) by anyone who is 18+ and not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm.

rackham1
12-06-11, 12:21
So, you're saying all this from experience or something? All of them do it?

And you know that the OP's son would do something like this?

What makes you think a deputy would treat anyone different at 16 whether it's an AR or pistol or shotgun or squirrel rifle?

Please... I think you're reading more into my post than I meant you to. I'm offering a perspective to consider... not absolutes or laws. If an absolute is what you took away, then I think you read too literally.

From experience? Yes, my buds and I grabbed our rifles and ran off to the "shooting spot" all the time when we were teens, probably like most of us on this site. And yeah, the deputy would roll up, check on things, and move on.

I think everyone understands that this kind of story is a different time (20 years ago for me) and place (semi-rural for me), but they can adjust for their own situation. Where I live now this is still the case... high schoolers head to the woods with their rifles and shoot without their parents. I don't know if the OP's son would do this or not, but he's free to disregard if that's not the case.

My 15-yr old's guns are "his", but live in my safe, only come out when he shoots with me, and I'm the one legally responsible for them. When he's of age then I'll gift them so they're his in fact. I consider this a practical way to avoid the legal confusion in the posts above. If I were in the OP's position, I'd buy the lower, assemble a complete AR-15, in principle and practice it'd be mine, but my son would call it "his" anyway because Dad only shoots it with him, and he'll take it with him someday.

PrivateCitizen
12-06-11, 12:22
Unclear …

What good is just a lower?

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 13:15
Rock bottom age for transfer is 18 under federal law.

Incorrect. No Federal law exists that prevents anyone from owning a long gun based on age. This comes down to his state's laws on ownership. For all the feds care a 5 year old can own an AR15, there is no law prohibiting it.

The only Federal law on ownership based on age is that one must be 18 to own or possess a handgun with a few exceptions, such as agricultural work.

This is not the same as the laws regarding Federal Firearms License holders and whom they may transfer firearms to. Those laws are not ownership laws, though, and do not apply to anyone but FFLs.

For example, in the state of Texas you must be 18 to own a firearm. No distinction is made as to whether it is a handgun or long gun. So, at the age of 18 I can legally be given a handgun or purchase it from a non-FFL. The Federal law regarding the age of 21 only applies to transfers done by an FFL.

Some states have different ages for firearms ownership. I may be mistaken, but I think Idaho is one such state, where the age to own a firearm is set by state law at... 16? So, Federal law prevents someone there from owning a handgun until 18 anyway, but in absence of a Federal law on long gun ownership, it comes down to state law. So, if my memory of Idaho's laws is correct, a 16 year old could be the legal owner of a long gun if it was acquired as a gift or bought from a non-FFL. (I may be wrong on Idaho's age limits... but the concept is what matters.)

Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

Raven Armament
12-06-11, 13:34
This is correct as far as who an FFL can transfer a lower to. I don't believe it is correct as far as the transfer from a private person who is not an FFL holder. As you know, handguns can only be sold by an FFL to someone who is 21+, but in many states they can be legally purchased in a private sale (not from an FFL) by anyone who is 18+ and not otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm.
Correct. The individual in this case is only 16 so that would not apply. He is a minor under 18 and cannot receive a handgun or "other firearm" from anyone, FFL or non-FFL.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 13:41
Correct. The individual in this case is only 16 so that would not apply. He is a minor under 18 and cannot receive a handgun or "other firearm" from anyone, FFL or non-FFL.

Two points, neither of which I am 100% sure on- they may just be gray areas.

1) Didn't the OP specify a complete lower half? I may be mistaken, but aren't lower halves with a rifle stock considered "long guns"?

2) 18 U.S.C. 922(x) only prohibits "handguns" from being possessed by a juvenile, with no mention of anything else. Do you have a reference for another law which would support your claim?

davidjinks
12-06-11, 13:49
Have you actually read the Fed Firearms Law?

Your information is wrong. A minor child can in fact receive any type of firearm as a gift. Said minor CANNOT go out and purchase a firearm on their own.

I think you have some things backwards on your end. An individual purchase VS. a purchased item being gifted. Two separate things.



Correct. The individual in this case is only 16 so that would not apply. He is a minor under 18 and cannot receive a handgun or "other firearm" from anyone, FFL or non-FFL.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 14:03
A minor child can in fact receive any type of firearm as a gift. Said minor CANNOT go out and purchase a firearm on their own.

An individual under the age of 18 cannot be given a handgun, as it would violate 18 U.S.C. 922(x). What exemption are you finding that would allow this?

Said individual under the age of 18 can go out and purchase a long gun on their own from someone who is not an FFL, (For example, from an individual at a gun show.) provided no state laws come into play.

davidjinks
12-06-11, 14:12
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-5300-2.pdf

It clearly states what it and is not allowed by law. Hell that same referance was already mentioned like 3 times in this thread.



An individual under the age of 18 cannot be given a handgun, as it would violate 18 U.S.C. 922(x). What exemption are you finding that would allow this?

Said individual under the age of 18 can go out and purchase a long gun on their own from someone who is not an FFL, (For example, from an individual at a gun show.) provided no state laws come into play.

Raven Armament
12-06-11, 14:18
Two points, neither of which I am 100% sure on- they may just be gray areas.

1) Didn't the OP specify a complete lower half? I may be mistaken, but aren't lower halves with a rifle stock considered "long guns"?
No. A lower half with a stock is still a receiver/frame. A frame/receiver with a stock does not meet the legal definition of a rifle or shotgun as per 27 CFR 478.11:

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended
to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or
remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge
to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single
pull of the trigger.

Since an AR lower with stock is not { insert bold part }, because it does not have a rifled bore in which to discharge such cartridge, it is not a rifle.


2) 18 U.S.C. 922(x) only prohibits "handguns" from being possessed by a juvenile, with no mention of anything else. Do you have a reference for another law which would support your claim?
Other than Brandon at the ATF office in Grand Rapids stating to me a minor under 18 cannot receive an AR lower receiver as a gift because it's an "other firearm" and such ownership transfer is limited to 21yo from FFLs and 18yo from non-FFLs. I don't know of any statute or ruling, just what has been held by the IOIs than inspect me.


Have you actually read the Fed Firearms Law?

Your information is wrong. A minor child can in fact receive any type of firearm as a gift. Said minor CANNOT go out and purchase a firearm on their own.

I think you have some things backwards on your end. An individual purchase VS. a purchased item being gifted. Two separate things.
Could be wrong. I'm wasn't aware a minor child could receive any firearm as a gift. From what the ATF has indicated to me is that title of ownership couldn't take place until that person was 18yo. The actual buyer on the 4473 is the owner and may allow the minor to use said firearm under their presence, but the minor could not claim ownership title to it (do as they please) until 18yo.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 14:29
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-5300-2.pdf

It clearly states what it and is not allowed by law. Hell that same referance was already mentioned like 3 times in this thread.

Exactly, and what part makes you think a handgun can be given as a gift to an individual under the age of 18? I certainly see exceptions for use... but not ownership, which is what a "gift" implies.

Not that any of this matters... I am not convinced that a lower half with rifle stock is not considered a rifle. I assert that we're discussing a rifle in this instance.

Even if it isn't a rifle, it isn't a handgun. And 922(x) only mentions handguns.

This comes down to state law.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 14:40
No. A lower half with a stock is still a receiver/frame. A frame/receiver with a stock does not meet the legal definition of a rifle or shotgun as per 27 CFR 478.11:

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended
to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or
remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge
to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single
pull of the trigger.

Since an AR lower with stock is not { insert bold part }, because it does not have a rifled bore in which to discharge such cartridge, it is not a rifle.


Other than Brandon at the ATF office in Grand Rapids stating to me a minor under 18 cannot receive an AR lower receiver as a gift because it's an "other firearm" and such ownership transfer is limited to 21yo from FFLs and 18yo from non-FFLs. I don't know of any statute or ruling, just what has been held by the IOIs than inspect me.


Could be wrong. I'm wasn't aware a minor child could receive any firearm as a gift. From what the ATF has indicated to me is that title of ownership couldn't take place until that person was 18yo. The actual buyer on the 4473 is the owner and may allow the minor to use said firearm under their presence, but the minor could not claim ownership title to it (do as they please) until 18yo.

It is still designed to fire from the shoulder and to fire a metallic cartridge, even though it is not currently capable. But, okay, let's say it is still an "other".

"Brandon" is not judge, jury, or executioner and cannot invent laws out of thin air. The law as it is written does not prohibit an individual under the age of 18 from being given and owning an "other".

There is no such thing as "title of ownership"... it isn't a car, there is no registration. Filling out a 4473 does not make you an owner, as it is stated in the directions on the 4473 that you can purchase guns for other people as a bonafide gift. You really don't even have to be the "actual buyer"- for example, a spouse can retrieve a firearm from a gunsmith for the other, but must fill out a 4473 and leave the first question blank. A 4473 is not a title of ownership.

LRB45
12-06-11, 15:04
Thanks for everyone discussing this, though it does seem a bit confusing.

The biggest problem to me if I purchased the lower and gifted to my son is he generally stays with his mother. Not a big deal because we are only about a five minute drive apart. I would just have to have him keep it at my house until he is 18. If he wants to borrow it for the afternoon or the day I would not see a problem.

Heck I bought my first rifle when I was 16 and paid for it myself, my dad just filled out the paperwork. I drove all over the country during hunting season with it, even had it in my car at school. The horrors of that happening today though.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 15:10
Why don't you just post up what state you are in, and we can pretty well have this pinned down in no time at all?

Before he would be in possession of it in public, it would obviously be a rifle. So the handgun and "other' issues don't really matter. So, there is no Federal law that comes into play.

All we need to do is look up age for rifle ownership and/or possession in your state and this will be very clear cut.

LRB45
12-06-11, 15:16
Nebraska! Stated it earlier in this thread.

rackham1
12-06-11, 15:18
Wow, you guys are out there! :D

For normal people... My dad "bought himself" a 10-22 and a 12-guage a long time ago, let me use them while I lived at home, then transferred them... I guess... to me when I turned 18. So the OP will "buy himself" an AR, let his son use it and refer to it as his own for a few years, then transfer at 18 or 21, as applicable. In spirit it's his son's rifle... in reality it's his.

I respect your understanding of the firearms laws, but for a bubba like me, this approach is preferable to wading into the above. It gets the job done (Dad and Boy shoot guns together) and as far as I know, is just as legal.

cringing against the rebuttals :p

rackham1
12-06-11, 15:22
The biggest problem to me if I purchased the lower and gifted to my son is he generally stays with his mother. Not a big deal because we are only about a five minute drive apart. I would just have to have him keep it at my house until he is 18. If he wants to borrow it for the afternoon or the day I would not see a problem.

Just saw this, LRB45... curse the slow refresh. I see your concern now. I'll back out and let the "lawyers" answer (just kidding, guys).

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 15:33
Sorry, missed the part where you said you were in Nebraska.

http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/city/police/pdf/gun.pdf

On page seven of this document from the State of Nebraska website it states...

Any person under the age of eighteen (18) years who possesses a pistol, revolver, or any other form of short-barreled hand firearm commits the offense of unlawful possession of a revolver. The only exception would be the issuance of such firearms to members of the armed forces of the United States, active or reserve, National Guard of this state, or Reserve Officers Training Corps, or the temporary loan for instruction under the immediate supervision of a parent or guardian or adult instructor.

No mention, however, is made regarding rifles.

Take a look at this source... "Legal Community Against Violence".

http://www.lcav.org/states/nebraska.asp

It states...


Nebraska provides no minimum age for the purchase or possession of rifles and shotguns, although federal age restrictions still apply.

There are no applicable Federal age restrictions, and this research indicates there are no applicable State restrictions.

Given this evidence, I can find no legal reason you may not give your son a rifle for his own possession and ownership at the age of 16 years. Giving him a lower half without the rest of the rifle seems to be a gray area open to interpretation- but I see no reason why you cannot maintain the lower half as being "yours" until an upper half is added, since it would be of no use to him anyway.

I am not a lawyer, and am qualified in no way to make legal recommendations. I am merely stating information from sources available to anyone on the internet, and drawing my own conclusions from it. This is not to be taken as legal advice.

davidjinks
12-06-11, 15:35
3 (A) (i) and (ii)

That whole temporary transfer, use, possession thing...





Exactly, and what part makes you think a handgun can be given as a gift to an individual under the age of 18? I certainly see exceptions for use... but not ownership, which is what a "gift" implies.

Not that any of this matters... I am not convinced that a lower half with rifle stock is not considered a rifle. I assert that we're discussing a rifle in this instance.

Even if it isn't a rifle, it isn't a handgun. And 922(x) only mentions handguns.

This comes down to state law.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 15:39
3 (A) (i) and (ii)

That whole temporary transfer, use, possession thing...

Temporary is the key word here. Basically, it is saying you can let your kid shoot with you are the range, go hunting with you, etc.

That does not equate to ownership.

davidjinks
12-06-11, 15:42
Right on dude! Keep on keepin on man!



Temporary is the key word here. Basically, it is saying you can let your kid shoot with you are the range, go hunting with you, etc.

That does not equate to ownership.

MistWolf
12-06-11, 15:43
Wow, you guys are out there! :D

For normal people... My dad "bought himself" a 10-22 and a 12-guage a long time ago, let me use them while I lived at home, then transferred them... I guess... to me when I turned 18. So the OP will "buy himself" an AR, let his son use it and refer to it as his own for a few years, then transfer at 18 or 21, as applicable. In spirit it's his son's rifle... in reality it's his.

I respect your understanding of the firearms laws, but for a bubba like me, this approach is preferable to wading into the above. It gets the job done (Dad and Boy shoot guns together) and as far as I know, is just as legal.

cringing against the rebuttals :p

Don't cringe, even if rebuttals do roll in. This is the most realistic approach. When I was growing up, my father gave us all firearms. We kept them in our rooms in a gunrack. If we screwed up and broke the rules, Dad made sure we wouldn't do that again and that we wouldn't break rules we hadn't yet as well. Shooting without Dad's permission was breaking a rule. Dad took us shooting whenever he could. I did the same with my sons. The firearms belong to the kids. Kids have to answer to the adults. Simple.

LRB45, keep the weapons at your place. Your son can come over to visit anytime

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 15:43
Right on dude! Keep on keepin on man!

I really am not sure what your intent is with this comment... do you disagree?

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 15:46
Don't cringe, even if rebuttals do roll in. This is the most realistic approach. When I was growing up, my father gave us all firearms. We kept them in our rooms in a gunrack. If we screwed up and broke the rules, Dad made sure we wouldn't do that again and that we wouldn't break rules we hadn't yet as well. Shooting without Dad's permission was breaking a rule. Dad took us shooting whenever he could. I did the same with my sons. The firearms belong to the kids. Kids have to answer to the adults. Simple.

LRB45, keep the weapons at your place. Your son can come over to visit anytime

And this seems to be the primary issue. If the mother is okay with the rifle being in her home and in her son's possession there, then there is no problem.

Even though he may be legally allowed to own the rifle- it is her home, and if she won't allow it then that's the end of it. If she won't let him keep it there, just keep it at your house, even if it is your son's rifle.

Iraqgunz
12-06-11, 17:35
Thank you. That's exactly what I was going to say.


Stop. An AR15 lower is an "other firearm" (ie not a rifle and not a shotgun), therefore it, just like handguns must transfer to someone 21yo or older. Putting a stock on a lower does not make it a long gun. It's still a receiver.

The gifted firearm must be a compete rifle or complete shotgun. It cannot be a receiver or frame, with or without stock attached.

lamarbrog
12-06-11, 17:40
Yet, 922(x) only says that handguns may not be owned by someone under 18.

You guys are focusing on who an FFL may transfer an item to, which is a completely separate matter.

dr.crash
12-06-11, 20:25
depends on your state laws as to transfer but i would say if he is interested, taking the time to teach them to respect guns is always a good idea.

Raven Armament
12-06-11, 23:33
It is still designed to fire from the shoulder and to fire a metallic cartridge, even though it is not currently capable.
It is not designed to fire a metallic cartridge. There is no way to determine what a frame/receiver may eventually fire by its design alone. There is an ATF letter on this very issue floating around here and other forums. I may have a copy saved to my computer I'll post if I can find it. It explicitly states "an AR15 lower receiver with stock attached is not a rifle, not a pistol, and is a receiver only".


"Brandon" is not judge, jury, or executioner and cannot invent laws out of thin air. The law as it is written does not prohibit an individual under the age of 18 from being given and owning an "other".
Correct, however when I call my local ATF office for guidance and they instruct me to conduct a transfer in a certain way, I do it and make note of whom I spoke with and what was said. It's very plausible the IOI was mistaken for the handgun law and equated that to the other firearm regulation. I don't sell lowers or do transfers on them anymore (this was a few years ago I did this one for a friend).


There is no such thing as "title of ownership"... it isn't a car, there is no registration. Filling out a 4473 does not make you an owner, as it is stated in the directions on the 4473 that you can purchase guns for other people as a bonafide gift. You really don't even have to be the "actual buyer"- for example, a spouse can retrieve a firearm from a gunsmith for the other, but must fill out a 4473 and leave the first question blank. A 4473 is not a title of ownership.
ATF's words, not mine.

LRB45
12-07-11, 07:18
Still up in the air on what to do for my son for Christmas.

If I would buy him a lower I would just have to keep it at my house at least til he gets an upper for it. Even then I believe I would keep it with me until he turns 18. I don't see a problem with that because he wouldn't "own it" til he's 18.

Iraqgunz
12-07-11, 07:34
Raven,

I believe that you are correct. This is why you cannot sell a lower to someone under 21. Because of the fact that it can be made into a rifle or a pistol. I am failry certain that the only reason why any scrutiny was given to this is because of those who think they need AR pistols.


It is not designed to fire a metallic cartridge. There is no way to determine what a frame/receiver may eventually fire by its design alone. There is an ATF letter on this very issue floating around here and other forums. I may have a copy saved to my computer I'll post if I can find it. It explicitly states "an AR15 lower receiver with stock attached is not a rifle, not a pistol, and is a receiver only".


Correct, however when I call my local ATF office for guidance and they instruct me to conduct a transfer in a certain way, I do it and make note of whom I spoke with and what was said. It's very plausible the IOI was mistaken for the handgun law and equated that to the other firearm regulation. I don't sell lowers or do transfers on them anymore (this was a few years ago I did this one for a friend).


ATF's words, not mine.

rackham1
12-07-11, 15:06
Still up in the air on what to do for my son for Christmas.

If I would buy him a lower I would just have to keep it at my house at least til he gets an upper for it. Even then I believe I would keep it with me until he turns 18. I don't see a problem with that because he wouldn't "own it" til he's 18.

I think you're all set with keeping it at your place... legal discussion aside, it's a good plan as far as I'm concerned. I can't imagine he'd be disappointed in it.

Have you decided which lower? Wondering if you've also considered getting a stripped lower and parts, then assembling it together. Some of my first gun memories with my dad are of assembling and finishing muzzleloaders together. Pretty meaningful experience for me.

LRB45
12-07-11, 17:27
Looking really hard at the blem lower from BCM.

Renegade
12-07-11, 17:34
An individual under the age of 18 cannot be given a handgun, as it would violate 18 U.S.C. 922(x). What exemption are you finding that would allow this?


922(x)(3)(A)(ii)

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm,

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

Renegade
12-07-11, 17:43
For example, in the state of Texas you must be 18 to own a firearm. No distinction is made as to whether it is a handgun or long gun.

But like Fed Law, there are exceptions.

(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.

Iraqgunz
12-07-11, 22:02
I think there has been plenty of information posted here. It's now up to the OP to take the plunge and decide what to do.