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Ring
12-06-11, 09:39
Here's a good article on suppressor use written by the NRA. Reprinted with permission.

Suppressors-Good for Our Hearing . . . and The Shooting Sports

http://www.nraila.org/images/suppressorhead2.jpg

[TD="class: copy"]When I was growing up in the 1970s, I shot as often as I could and never considered hearing protection. I recall when I was 5 years old, my father and his friend handed me a two-inch .357 Magnum and challenged me to hit a Montana coyote on the far hillside. I launched all five shots and, to the joy of my audience, came remarkably close to ending the coyote's rabbit-munching days. Needless to say, the experience left my ears ringing for a while and I wondered if they would ever return to normal.

We hear the same story from countless hunters and shooters who might not realize that a lack of hearing protection can result in lasting hearing loss--until it's too late. Billions of dollars are spent every year in our healthcare system for hearing loss conditions, such as shooting-related tinnitus. Fortunately, the days of sophisticated electronic hearing protection are upon us. These little battery-powered marvels amplify the good sounds (range commands) while still providing a significant degree of protection. The truth is, however, that even with quality devices like these, shooting can still cause damage to our hearing.

Sound suppressors attached to firearms (less accurately called "silencers" in federal law) are an additional tool available to help protect our hearing and are quickly gaining in popularity throughout the country. Although few may realize it, suppressors are not a new innovation. The Maxim Silencer Company opened its doors more than a century ago. Teddy Roosevelt is reported to have used one on his Winchester Model 94 at his Long Island home in order to avoid disturbing his neighbors while dispatching varmints. However, recent advances in technology and manufacturing capabilities have made them more available and appealing to the shooting masses.

Unfortunately, too many Americans (including some gun owners) still fall victim to the unfair portrayals by Hollywood. Although "silencers" are almost exclusively put in the hands of James Bond or assassins on the silver screen, in reality suppressors are commonly used by hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens who appreciate the many benefits of reducing harmful sound. They are virtually never used in the commission of crimes today, and criminal misuse carries severe penalties. The sound-suppressing devices don't make firearms silent but they do help mitigate the otherwise damaging and disturbing noise.

Our society is full of devices that muffle sound to prevent hearing loss and noise pollution--firearm sound suppression is no different.
While American gun owners don't often point to Europeans as providing an example that should be followed, their use of suppressors is an exception. In many of the countries "across the pond," the use of these noise-attenuating devices is actively encouraged. Buying "moderators" (their term for suppressors) from a hardware store is often no different than buying a hammer or a screwdriver. They are not always subject to the same draconian regulation that they are here in the United States.




http://www.nraila.org/images/aac.jpg

Firearms are usually defined as a weapon by which a projectile is discharged by gunpowder. Strangely, suppressors are also considered "firearms" in the United States and regulated pursuant to the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA). In order to acquire a suppressor, a purchaser must complete the appropriate NFA paperwork, undergo a background check, find a licensed dealer authorized to conduct the transaction and pay a one-time $200 tax for each device.

Recently, Michigan became the 39th state to legalize suppressor possession. The 11 states that prohibit their possession and use, along with many other states that bar their use during specific activities such as hunting, are essentially mandating that firearms produce as much inner-ear-destroying noise as they possibly can. This doesn't happen with cars, motorcycles, airplanes, air conditioning units, dishwashers, construction equipment or anything else that comes to mind. There is no logical reason for firearms to be singled out when it comes to our desire to make things quieter.

While hearing protection during routine shooting practice is arguably the most important benefit suppressors offer to civilian shooters, there are a number of others that deserve mention. Without a doubt, they help many shooters increase accuracy. Humans have a primordial fear of loud noise that contributes to the most common cause of missed shots--trigger flinch. The less noise a gun produces, the less likely a shooter is to flinch just before the shot breaks. Felt recoil is another contributor to flinch and the weight of suppressors helps to reduce this. More accurate shooting in the field means fewer wounded and lost animals--a good thing for hunters and wildlife.

Noise complaints are causing closures of shooting ranges, informal shooting areas and hunting lands throughout the country. This is a trend the NRA and its members spend untold resources fighting. Increased use of suppressors on ranges and hunting lands will work to decrease these detrimental complaints. It is worth noting that keeping his target shooting from disrupting neighbors was what motivated Hiram Maxim to begin the country's first commercial production of suppressors.

In addition, the use of suppressors in a home defense scenario cannot be discounted. Shooting any firearm in an enclosed space, such as a hallway or small room, sends shock waves to your core. The tiny components of the inner ear get pummeled. Of course, prevailing in a life threatening scenario is the first priority, but it should not come at the cost of living the remainder of life with a significant hearing disability if it can be avoided.
Finally, those of us who have tried and failed to find an adequate way to protect our hearing while hunting can benefit from suppressors, especially while hunting in a fixed location such as a stand or blind where the extra weight is not a detriment. My current practice is to rest plugs in my ears so that my ability to detect the sounds of approaching game is not hindered. As I consider a shot, I fully insert them. Of course, things occasionally happen too quickly for me to implement my best laid plans and damage is done. Use of suppressors in these instances would certainly reduce the probability of harm.

http://www.nraila.org/images/gemtech.jpg

Some will argue that the legalization of suppressor use while hunting will increase the incidents of poaching, but the experience of the many states that allow the practice clearly proves them wrong. Would these opponents mandate the use of the .338 Lapua with a muzzle brake in order for shots to be heard from the greatest possible distance? Is the diminutive .243 Win. Simply too quiet? As one suppressor advocate in Montana asked earlier this year during the legislative session, should all bow hunters be required to sound an air horn every time they release an arrow in order to alert any nearby wardens?

The reality is, the less muzzle noise heard by the non-hunting public, the better off we all are.
It's time that policymakers--legislators, wildlife commissioners and gun club board members--move to eliminate the laws, regulations and policies that discourage or prohibit suppressor use. In addition to decreasing the incidents of permanent hearing loss, it will help keep the shooting sports alive and well by decreasing the calls to close shooting areas and hunting lands. Suppressors may not be for everyone, but that's the best aspect of freedom--it is your choice.
Copyright 2011, National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action.
This may be reproduced. It may not be reproduced for commercial purposes.
11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030 800-392-8683

Raven Armament
12-06-11, 09:47
The NRA finally "gets it" about NFA items. Nice to see their head is coming out of their butt.

Brimstone
12-06-11, 09:47
Great article and spot on in their analysis.

Dr Dues
12-06-11, 12:41
..........The only thing that comes to mind is "Pandoras Box".

....and yes, I am a skeptic.

Iraqgunz
12-06-11, 20:57
I often hear the so-called "European model" being mentioned and so I have to ask. Can anyone provide solid proof of these claims?

I lived in Europe for 8 years and every place where I traveled suppressors were as controlled as anything else. IIRC in Germany and Holland they were outright prohibited.

What good is a suppressor in the U.K when you can't even buy a firearm?

VIP3R 237
12-06-11, 21:04
Think there's ever a chance they will amend suppressors from the nfa act? I think its worth writing a congressmen or senator about it.

Brimstone
12-06-11, 22:40
Think there's ever a chance they will amend suppressors from the nfa act? I think its worth writing a congressmen or senator about it.

Whatever happened with the bill in Utah where they were claiming that firearms/NFA items made in Utah, sold in Utah and staying in Utah could not be regulated by the Federal government due to the lack of interstate commerce? I was hoping that the sovereignty bill was going to get some traction, but I am sure the guys in Washington were fighting it with everything they had.

bigj480
12-06-11, 23:03
Whatever happened with the bill in Utah where they were claiming that firearms/NFA items made in Utah, sold in Utah and staying in Utah could not be regulated by the Federal government due to the lack of interstate commerce? I was hoping that the sovereignty bill was going to get some traction, but I am sure the guys in Washington were fighting it with everything they had.

It would likely go nowhere anyway. The view of the supreme court in the past is that if anything affects interstate commerce, it can be federally regulated. If you produce something and use it yourself or sell it locally, that affects the commerce because before someone may have bought that thing via interstate commerce. Here is a link that should turn your stomach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

deadlyfire
12-07-11, 10:05
It would likely go nowhere anyway. The view of the supreme court in the past is that if anything affects interstate commerce, it can be federally regulated. If you produce something and use it yourself or sell it locally, that affects the commerce because before someone may have bought that thing via interstate commerce. Here is a link that should turn your stomach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

None of that made any sense...it sure did turn my stomach.

markm
12-07-11, 10:18
http://www.nraila.org/images/aac.jpg



What the SHIZZ is this gun supposed to be. It's a Fudd Scout CQB precision rig???

Raven Armament
12-07-11, 12:12
Lightweight suppressed hunting rifle great for spot and stalk hunting. Model 7 in 300 BLK with 762-SD6 or whatever the 300 BLK can is. Red dot would be for fast target acquisition and be sighted for the practical hunting range of 250y supersonic or 150y subsonic.

I'd love to have one. Just wish we could hunt with suppressors.

markm
12-07-11, 12:39
Lightweight suppressed hunting rifle great for spot and stalk hunting. Model 7 in 300 BLK with 762-SD6 or whatever the 300 BLK can is.

Oh... that 300 Blk thingy....

I'm not familiar with that whole deal at all.

Out here in AZ we can't hunt with NFA stuff.

chrismartin
12-07-11, 12:47
Model 7 in 300 BLK with 762-SD6 or whatever the 300 BLK can is.

The silencer in the picture is the AAC Cyclone (Thread on silencer).
The 762SD and 762SD-N6 are Quick Detach silencers. The Cyclone is lighter, making for one light rifle when coupled with the Model 7, lightweight profile barrel, etc.

I built up a Remington 700 using the AAC 300BLK lightweight barrel and it's sweet. Just waiting for the right deal for a 308 silencer to come along.

Irish
12-07-11, 12:50
If they removed the NFA restriction on suppressors I wonder how much lower the prices would be? Automatically you'd remove the prohibitive $200 tax putting much more money into the manufacturers pockets for R&D along with bringing additional competition and new designs to the market. That would be awesome.

One of my primary reasons for wanting to own one is for a .22 to teach my son to shoot.

scottryan
12-07-11, 13:16
I often hear the so-called "European model" being mentioned and so I have to ask. Can anyone provide solid proof of these claims?

I lived in Europe for 8 years and every place where I traveled suppressors were as controlled as anything else. IIRC in Germany and Holland they were outright prohibited.

What good is a suppressor in the U.K when you can't even buy a firearm?


+1

The whole "silencers are everywhere in Europe" is a myth.

chrismartin
12-07-11, 15:47
If they removed Silencers from the NFA, new sales could become illegal in many states. Some states have similar wording to "Silencers are illegal unless properly registered with the federal government". Those states with that type of law would be problematic. So, this would need to be a state and federal law change.

I so want silencers to be non-NFA. I'd own a ton more of them. Even just allowing a basic 4473 NICS check type of thing and I'd be buying them left and right. I just hate the wait and hassles.

Draufganger
12-07-11, 16:28
I often hear the so-called "European model" being mentioned and so I have to ask. Can anyone provide solid proof of these claims?

I lived in Europe for 8 years and every place where I traveled suppressors were as controlled as anything else. IIRC in Germany and Holland they were outright prohibited.

What good is a suppressor in the U.K when you can't even buy a firearm?

Hello,

Im from Finland, that is in Europe, we used to have totally unregulated access to suppressors, everybody could buy them, but about 6 moths ago, a new gun law came to the effect, it changed the the procedure so that now only those that have firearms (with permits) can buy / own a suppressor, or if your a air rifle hobbyist you can get one with a dedicated permit (costs 30 or 70€, im not sure as i have real weapons so i can buy any suppressors i want to..) for this item (PCP air rifles are quite loud..), still its way less strictly regulated than in USA and hunters use them all the time, that is not limited in anyway. Also im pretty sure suppressors are readily available to shooters at least in Sweden and UK also, claiming that they cant own weapons there is a bit of an exaggeration as they can have shotguns single shot, repeater and semi auto type (even saiga 12's..), .22lr rifles, semi, repeater and single shot and also center fire rifles of at least single shot and single shot magazine fed (like bolt or straight bolt action..) they actually have AK's (Saiga rifles) that are without the gas system (no piston and without the gas hole on the barrel..), and as such funtion as straight pull bolt action rifles..

Cheers.

Moltke
12-07-11, 16:47
Thanks for the input but damn, it's bad enough having a Saiga, let alone a straight pull single shot version. Eww.

Tuukka
12-07-11, 17:09
The above information with regards to the change here in Finland is correct.

However some of the things that have been said over the years on the Internet of suppressor use here in Europe are not totally correct.

Example countries here where you can hunt with a suppressor: Finland, Sweden, Norway, United Kingdom, Ireland.

In the UK they actually have plenty of firearms, especially rifles and shotguns and also including some pistols ( with long rods in the pistol grip and long barrels ) to make them over the minimum length.

Our company sells thousands of centrefire suppressors to the UK every year.

The EU firearms directive changed this June and now suppressors are officially categorized as firearms "parts"

There has been some different interpretations on this: in the UK they are not categorized as "essential parts", which are for example the barrel, bolt, receiver etc.

That to my understanding is the correct interpretation, here in Finland we changed our gun law and now the "essential parts" part does not exist any more, only "parts"

So that means even civilian suppressors are now under export control, but since it would have been a nightmare to register the existing tens of thousands of suppressors = no actual licence is needed for domestic ownership and purchase, as referenced above already.

What the above means in the long run is still a bit open, but common sense would say that now that the suppressor is an official part of the firearms legistlation = one could apply for a permit.

This concerns the countries where they have been banned, for example: Germany, Italy and Spain.

However we are not holding our hopes up, as common sense and politics dont usually go hand in hand..

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

P2000
12-07-11, 17:34
Tuukka or somerandomcunt,

Is it true that there are shooting ranges in Finland or Europe that require suppressors to be used?

Tuukka
12-07-11, 17:48
Some ranges allow you to shoot longer into the day with a suppressor or if there are restrictions, they are usually for the weekend.

An example is the main local range, with 150 and 300 m ranges, that is co-located with a Border Guard base, people have moved right next door to the range and surprise, complaints have come in over the years.

On weekdays there are no special restrictions, only that shooting is allowed until 8 p.m and if I recally correctly you can shoot up to 3 p.m on Saturdays unsuppressed, up to 6 p.m suppressed and on Sundays only suppressed shooting is allowed on the rifle ranges.

So although in general the use is not stricly required at all times, it is encouraged / recommended.

The situation with housing coming nearer to ranges is a problem in many European countries, even for MIL / LE units, the governments do have to bend to the complaints in many cases.

So it will be interesting to see what happens with some of the larger "gun countries" in the future, ie. will suppressors be allowed.

It makes a lot of sense, it is much more economic to have the people the opportunity to use suppressors than spend huge sums of money on rebuilding or renovating the range designs.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

P2000
12-07-11, 18:19
Some ranges allow you to shoot longer into the day with a suppressor or if there are restrictions, they are usually for the weekend.

An example is the main local range, with 150 and 300 m ranges, that is co-located with a Border Guard base, people have moved right next door to the range and surprise, complaints have come in over the years.

On weekdays there are no special restrictions, only that shooting is allowed until 8 p.m and if I recally correctly you can shoot up to 3 p.m on Saturdays unsuppressed, up to 6 p.m suppressed and on Sundays only suppressed shooting is allowed on the rifle ranges.

So although in general the use is not stricly required at all times, it is encouraged / recommended.

The situation with housing coming nearer to ranges is a problem in many European countries, even for MIL / LE units, the governments do have to bend to the complaints in many cases.

So it will be interesting to see what happens with some of the larger "gun countries" in the future, ie. will suppressors be allowed.

It makes a lot of sense, it is much more economic to have the people the opportunity to use suppressors than spend huge sums of money on rebuilding or renovating the range designs.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

Thanks for the information!

One of the local ranges here received media attention about noise complaints from nearby residents. I think it is ridiculous because the range was there decades before the neighborhoods. Opening up suppressor regulations here would help the situation.

Tuukka
12-07-11, 19:22
Yes, this particular range also has been there for decades and I believe it has been given just a few more, sure years on the environmental permits.

Our city will be in trouble with the shooters and hunters if that range goes away, by law they need to provide equal opportunities for different hobbies and sports, so where will they be coughing up the money for a new range in the city area.

There is a larger project starting up somewhat to the south of us; small airport, motocross track and shooting range multi use area.

To my understanding they have coded it so that you can build a house in the surrounding area, but you need to sign a paper negating your right to complain about the noise.

Aries144
12-07-11, 19:42
To my understanding they have coded it so that you can build a house in the surrounding area, but you need to sign a paper negating your right to complain about the noise.

Nice!

That's what we need to adopt here.

Iraqgunz
12-07-11, 20:11
I don't know about Finland, Norway or Sweden. But, I do know quite a few people from the U.K and Ireland and I have worked alongside them on my last contract in Iraq.

All of them have told me first hand that in theory you can own hunting rifles, etc.. but in reality it is extremely difficult to get permission to purchase and own the weapons. In which case the suppressor would be nothing more than a conversation piece.

When I was in Switzerland back in the early 90's (I traveled there frequently from Germany) suppressors and firearms in general were loosely controlled. That has since changed and they now have plenty of restrictions in place.

So yes, we are restricted but when one looks at the overall picture we still have it better than just about anywhere I can think of.


The above information with regards to the change here in Finland is correct.

However some of the things that have been said over the years on the Internet of suppressor use here in Europe are not totally correct.

Example countries here where you can hunt with a suppressor: Finland, Sweden, Norway, United Kingdom, Ireland.
In the UK they actually have plenty of firearms, especially rifles and shotguns and also including some pistols ( with long rods in the pistol grip and long barrels ) to make them over the minimum length.

Our company sells thousands of centrefire suppressors to the UK every year.

The EU firearms directive changed this June and now suppressors are officially categorized as firearms "parts"

There has been some different interpretations on this: in the UK they are not categorized as "essential parts", which are for example the barrel, bolt, receiver etc.

That to my understanding is the correct interpretation, here in Finland we changed our gun law and now the "essential parts" part does not exist any more, only "parts"

So that means even civilian suppressors are now under export control, but since it would have been a nightmare to register the existing tens of thousands of suppressors = no actual licence is needed for domestic ownership and purchase, as referenced above already.

What the above means in the long run is still a bit open, but common sense would say that now that the suppressor is an official part of the firearms legistlation = one could apply for a permit.

This concerns the countries where they have been banned, for example: Germany, Italy and Spain.

However we are not holding our hopes up, as common sense and politics dont usually go hand in hand..

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

Raven Armament
12-08-11, 00:06
The silencer in the picture is the AAC Cyclone (Thread on silencer).
The 762SD and 762SD-N6 are Quick Detach silencers. The Cyclone is lighter, making for one light rifle when coupled with the Model 7, lightweight profile barrel, etc.
Thanks for that. I'm vaguely familiar with the AAC lineup but not that in touch with the fast attach type models versus direct threaded mount models.


If they removed the NFA restriction on suppressors I wonder how much lower the prices would be? Automatically you'd remove the prohibitive $200 tax putting much more money into the manufacturers pockets for R&D along with bringing additional competition and new designs to the market. That would be awesome.
From my perspective (though I don't make very many suppressors), my prices wouldn't change at all. Transfer tax has no bearing on my price as it's not my concern. I price my suppressors based on what it costs my company to make and market the product and make a profit for growth. A customer is going to pay $200 transfer tax for any suppressor they buy, so that's not a focus of mine. It's about the product and its value that matters in the end. Remove the transfer tax and it's still about the product and its value to the customer that matters.

Some manufacturers may lower their prices and that's fine. If they are competing only on price that means their product doesn't offer anything better than any competitor's product does. Basically they are out of options and the Hail Mary is a lower price because people will drive across the street to save 2 cents per gallon of gasoline because of the short term benefit of saving is perceived as a value. That gas is better because it's 2 cents a gallon cheaper. Unless you actually control the market pricing, competing on price only is like a cylinder full of live rounds in a game of Russian roulette with your business. I've witnessed plenty of businesses that competed on price only as an underdog and closed up tighter than a frog's asshole.

If suppressors are removed entirely from the NFA and let's say just a BG check on a 4473 is all it takes legally, the demand will increase. Manufacturers will meet the demand. Why would they lower their price when they could sell capacity at the current prices? Removal of the $200 tax automatically makes the purchasing experience $200 less expensive.

RyanB
12-08-11, 01:23
I believe removing them from the NFA would lower prices as you would see more cheaply built products, since they don't have to essentially last forever, and increased competition for market share. Good cans would still be expensive and people would still buy them.

Tuukka
12-08-11, 03:15
Iraqgunz,

My guess is that the people you talked to were not hunter or sports shooters?

As I said above, we do a lot of business with regards to centrefire calibre suppressors into the UK and I know shooting & hunting is strong there, despite the pistol and centrefire semi auto rifle bans.

Draufganger
12-08-11, 09:10
Hello Tuukka, i just wonder and maybe somebody else does also that actually how many suppressors have you / your company sold? I would guess its thousands, right? (tens of thousands?) And in all fairness you really should have the user title of "Industry Professional" rather than just lowly "member". :smile:

I dont know if its against M4Carbine.net EULA, but heres a link to Tuukka's company's homepage: http://www.aseutra.fi/index-en for those that want to take a look, and i would also claim the caliber (quality..) of their products is at least the same like those from AAC, a American quality manufacturer of among other things, suppressors.

Cheers.

Irish
12-08-11, 11:01
From my perspective (though I don't make very many suppressors), my prices wouldn't change at all. Transfer tax has no bearing on my price as it's not my concern. I price my suppressors based on what it costs my company to make and market the product and make a profit for growth. A customer is going to pay $200 transfer tax for any suppressor they buy, so that's not a focus of mine. It's about the product and its value that matters in the end. Remove the transfer tax and it's still about the product and its value to the customer that matters.

Some manufacturers may lower their prices and that's fine. If they are competing only on price that means their product doesn't offer anything better than any competitor's product does. Basically they are out of options and the Hail Mary is a lower price because people will drive across the street to save 2 cents per gallon of gasoline because of the short term benefit of saving is perceived as a value. That gas is better because it's 2 cents a gallon cheaper. Unless you actually control the market pricing, competing on price only is like a cylinder full of live rounds in a game of Russian roulette with your business. I've witnessed plenty of businesses that competed on price only as an underdog and closed up tighter than a frog's asshole.

If suppressors are removed entirely from the NFA and let's say just a BG check on a 4473 is all it takes legally, the demand will increase. Manufacturers will meet the demand. Why would they lower their price when they could sell capacity at the current prices? Removal of the $200 tax automatically makes the purchasing experience $200 less expensive.

I get what you're saying. However, removing the restrictions and the tax stamp would drive up demand exponentially. The more silencers the companies are selling the more profit is derived and they can focus on streamlining production, reducing material costs, etc. and pass those savings on to the customer. It would also open the market up to competition and invariably there will be new, fresh ideas on how to produce the same or better product at a cheaper cost.

How much different will the price be buying 1 rivet versus buying 10,000 rivets? Typically there is a reduced price when purchasing in bulk and I could foresee the same thing happening with suppressors.

scottryan
12-08-11, 11:16
I get what you're saying. However, removing the restrictions and the tax stamp would drive up demand exponentially. The more silencers the companies are selling the more profit is derived and they can focus on streamlining production, reducing material costs, etc. and pass those savings on to the customer. It would also open the market up to competition and invariably there will be new, fresh ideas on how to produce the same or better product at a cheaper cost.



That is a theory. Attempting to remove the restrictions opens the situation up for more restrictions.

et2041
12-08-11, 12:37
Nice!

That's what we need to adopt here.

That would never happen....too many ****ing lawyers out to make money on lawsuits.

scottryan
12-08-11, 15:56
IMHO, it wouldn't bother me if the article posted in the OP didn't even exist.

Javelin
12-08-11, 16:19
First of all we are not Europe.

Secondly I find it extremely annoying to shoot next to someone without a muffler on their gun. The same liberal slob that would tell me how evil my suppressed gun is would bitch and moan if I were to cut the muffler off my car and drive it around.

Silencers are not just cool - they are a necessity IMO. No one wants to hear a 140+db report off the end of a boomstick. It is annoying and quite frankly inconsiderate.