View Full Version : Are you truly happier with your custom build than with a factory rifle?
I see so many custom builds for sale almost new, that I tend to think for most fellows it is the wrong path to take.
My guess is that alot of people see a factory gun and say "I can make it better and so I'll build my own". Then they do. Then they realize that it's not as great as they thought it would be and so they try to offload it.
For a general purpose rifle, I'd rather have a factory built gun. Not something that was built for any specific role in mind, nothing that was made to fill a niche.
But for a rifle that was made to fill a niche, I completely understand why people build custom AR's. That being said, all AR's are not created equal - especially ones that are built in somebody's garage.
Other than a Colt 6933, there's no factory ARs that would meet my needs.
I looked at a few factory guns about a year ago then decided I would like to build one up that would fit my needs. Still don't have it put togather yet, still up in the air about what I want it to be when its done. Dedicated 3 gun, light coyote rifle, DMR/SPR... I can't afford to have a diff rifle for each hobby, can't figure out how to make one rifle do everything.
Eurodriver
12-06-11, 13:26
Other than a Colt 6933, there's no factory ARs that would meet my needs.
I concur.
I paid $950 for an upper w/ BCG and CH from BCM last week.
For that same price I could have gotten a Colt 6920 (complete).
But the 6920 wouldn't do what I needed (12.5" free floated, stainless barrel. Railed handguard, etc)
Skill_Kills
12-06-11, 14:05
considering I built my last one for just under $600 complete I'd say im very happy with it. its nothing too simple either
I'm not sure that we have the same definition of the word "custom". When I think of "custom" AR-15 I don't think of putting a pre-built upper onto a waiting lower, as those are both factory productions.
I thought this was discussing rifles that are put together by the end user from scratch & parts, either through careful selection of high quality to fill a niche or lowest cost selection of parts to have a standard rifle, or something in between.
I have yet to meet the builder of a standard rifle using low quality parts that even comes close to a factory 6920 - and I have yet to meet someone who's built from scratch on their own any SBR or SPR or RECCE, that shoot's as well as a factory Noveske of the same design.
But my experience is limited and I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
I'm not sure that we have the same definition of the word "custom". When I think of "custom" AR-15 I don't think of putting a pre-built upper onto a waiting lower, as those are both factory productions.
Good point. Most of mine are not true customs.... but they couldn't be purchased as they are either.
and I have yet to meet someone who's built from scratch on their own any SBR or SPR or RECCE, that shoot's as well as a factory Noveske of the same design.
But my experience is limited and I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
I'd say probably a whole slew of people on here have built SBR's etc from scratch that can give the Noveske a run for the money.
IMO people build guns to have them how they want them. Some people see it this way... "why buy a complete gun, when I'm just going to turn around and change half of the shit on it".
Some of us just like to build things up from scratch, on their own. Sometimes it's to learn, sometimes it's to know exactly what has been done to it, and what it has.
polydeuces
12-06-11, 22:19
I have yet to meet someone who's built from scratch on their own any SBR or SPR or RECCE, that shoot's as well as a factory Noveske of the same design.
But my experience is limited and I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
How many have you met exactly?
Saying your experience is limited should preclude making a blanket statement like that.
And define "shooting well"
FWIW - The DD SBR I just built shoots every bit as well as my (built-from-scratch -but all-Noveske-)RECCE N4 - perhaps not as soft, because well...it's short, right..? And I bet you either one of them shoots as well or better than most any "factory" job, while probably costing quite a bit less.
I think I learned way more by 'trying' to build it myself.
Though I believe most of the 'custom' are:
strip lower, then configure it in whatever
upper, w/out handguard and BCG, then configure it in whatever
I built one from scratch more just to get the experience and learn the system. Its a nice rifle and I will never sell it because it is a true 'custom,' but I dont think it is 'better.' When I was building it for the first time, I keep on running into problems which lead to search/read and learned a lot more then if I were to just buy a complete rifle.
I think many will be happier with their custom rifle (including myself), just because we like to DIY. Gun itself really isn't the point of 'building it yourself'.
The only factory AR I would buy right now is the Daniel Defense MK18. Nothing else meets my needs or wants (to include truly custom projects).
-B
.
To build a run of the mill basic quality carbine...
I think if a person is honest with themselves, they will pay more for a new quality build than a quality factory rifle, especially when they factor in the correct tools.
I build when I manage to accumulate a good quality parts inexpensively and that is the only reason I have built to date. This is probably the reason most guys build - they got the parts cheap.
Fun and ego are probably the most common reasons for building right now, it can't be really to save money. But it is fun...:)
Now to build for a special need or configuration, that is different and practical and justifiable.
Right now, to me, for anyone wanting a basic quality carbine, the money they can save building one is insignificant (if there at all) compared to a <$1000 new Colt 6920 available right now and when it is all said and done, will it be close to the Colt's quality of parts and assembly...and warranty?
But maybe it's just me...
.
polydeuces
12-06-11, 22:42
Answering the OP question -
AR15/M4's relative simplicity, overwhelming availability of quality parts (this one being the prime directive) and a wealth of good information out there makes it practically a no-brainer doing most anything yourself. Including building one from scratch.
And do it well. Unless one is mechanically severely challenged.
Combining this with some "smart shopping", one really can save money - save for most "basic" models, as the previous mentioned Colt and some others..
But basically, it's just good fun - why else have a fooking forum dedicated to it...hmmmmmmmm.....?!
Build one then see what you think..........................................
I see so many custom builds for sale almost new, that I tend to think for most fellows it is the wrong path to take.
Apologies in advance, I'm probably going to go long.
I think that there are a couple reasons why custom builds are popular. A lot of it has to do with how folks actually use their rifles. I've got no data to back it up, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of rifles will never be used to the point where a lot of "the chart" matters - most owners will never run their AR's hard. I'd guess a significant majority of AR's will only see bench time or (maybe) some hunting. While lots of folks want to picture themselves as "operators", few will ever get any training whatsoever, or dedicate any of their (limited) range time to drills other than punching holes in paper as close together as possible, or chasing cans around a gravel pit.
However, everyone on this site is "into" guns. We like them. We like to look at them, post pictures of our own, think about them. But very, very few people get to shoot as much as they want. It's incredibly rare that anyone has a job where pulling the trigger is the primary skill that puts food on the table for their family. The rest of us have to fit in range time and money for shooting around work, kids, vacations, etc.
Enter the AR-15. I don't think that there is another weapon that you can do so much to without specialized tools. Yes, you need action blocks and some special wrenches, but you can do some amazing stuff to an AR without milling machines, lathes, or other specialized machinist tools that you'd need to modify say a 1911. Complete changes to caliber, barrel, trigger, etc are easily within the capabilities of your average home shop.
So folks (like me) who don't get paid to pull triggers but are still into guns spend time looking at websites. I'd guess most desk jockeys have at least one spreadsheet detailing weights, prices, and options for builds. It's something to think about when we can't be shooting. It's something to look forward to, to plan for, and to put mental energy into - picking the perfect gas block from the dozens of available options. It's much harder to sit at a desk and train for door kicking.
So one reason for this is because they're easy to work on, and it extends the hobby for folks that can't shoot as much as they like.
The other reason I think it's popular is because there is an element of barrier to entry. For some folks, writing a check for $1K for a Colt is a problem, but buying $200 worth of parts each month for 6 months is doable. Yes, people should save for one and buy with cash, but there are folks who lack the financial discipline (or ability) to do so. Writing a check for a Noveske is completely out of the question for a lot of people.
So they build something a bit at a time. They use a stock trigger until they can get a higher end unit. They've got an old A2 stock they picked up for $30 at a gun show that works until they can afford the Magpul PRS. It's incremental cost rather than a one-time hit.
And the last question I have - when have you EVER seen a used Harley Davidson for sale that didn't have at least one aftermarket part on it? I can't ever recall one - as a country, Americans like to tinker with their toys. It's just who we are.
Just my HO, worth half of what you paid for it.
59B
Apologies in advance, I'm probably going to go long.
I think that there are a couple reasons why custom builds are popular. A lot of it has to do with how folks actually use their rifles. I've got no data to back it up, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of rifles will never be used to the point where a lot of "the chart" matters - most owners will never run their AR's hard. I'd guess a significant majority of AR's will only see bench time or (maybe) some hunting. While lots of folks want to picture themselves as "operators", few will ever get any training whatsoever, or dedicate any of their (limited) range time to drills other than punching holes in paper as close together as possible, or chasing cans around a gravel pit.
However, everyone on this site is "into" guns. We like them. We like to look at them, post pictures of our own, think about them. But very, very few people get to shoot as much as they want. It's incredibly rare that anyone has a job where pulling the trigger is the primary skill that puts food on the table for their family. The rest of us have to fit in range time and money for shooting around work, kids, vacations, etc.
Enter the AR-15. I don't think that there is another weapon that you can do so much to without specialized tools. Yes, you need action blocks and some special wrenches, but you can do some amazing stuff to an AR without milling machines, lathes, or other specialized machinist tools that you'd need to modify say a 1911. Complete changes to caliber, barrel, trigger, etc are easily within the capabilities of your average home shop.
So folks (like me) who don't get paid to pull triggers but are still into guns spend time looking at websites. I'd guess most desk jockeys have at least one spreadsheet detailing weights, prices, and options for builds. It's something to think about when we can't be shooting. It's something to look forward to, to plan for, and to put mental energy into - picking the perfect gas block from the dozens of available options. It's much harder to sit at a desk and train for door kicking.
So one reason for this is because they're easy to work on, and it extends the hobby for folks that can't shoot as much as they like.
The other reason I think it's popular is because there is an element of barrier to entry. For some folks, writing a check for $1K for a Colt is a problem, but buying $200 worth of parts each month for 6 months is doable. Yes, people should save for one and buy with cash, but there are folks who lack the financial discipline (or ability) to do so. Writing a check for a Noveske is completely out of the question for a lot of people.
So they build something a bit at a time. They use a stock trigger until they can get a higher end unit. They've got an old A2 stock they picked up for $30 at a gun show that works until they can afford the Magpul PRS. It's incremental cost rather than a one-time hit.
And the last question I have - when have you EVER seen a used Harley Davidson for sale that didn't have at least one aftermarket part on it? I can't ever recall one - as a country, Americans like to tinker with their toys. It's just who we are.
Just my HO, worth half of what you paid for it.
59B
That, sir, was well said and down to earth. It least in mind.
I have yet to meet the builder of a standard rifle using low quality parts that even comes close to a factory 6920 - and I have yet to meet someone who's built from scratch on their own any SBR or SPR or RECCE, that shoot's as well as a factory Noveske of the same design.
But my experience is limited and I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.
Why would a build using low quality parts even be expected to match a factory 6920 in any way other than taking up space in a safe? Can you do a build with quality parts for a similar price? I think so, but that's my opinion.
Also, define "shoot's as well as a factory Noveske". That's a pretty broad statement, and I don't mean to nitpick, but what exactly are you talking about? From a function and reliability standpoint, parts are readily available to use in a custom build that will definitely match the Noveske. If you're talking about accuracy, again, with barrels being the most important part in the accuracy equation, there are barrels available from Noveske and other mfg's that can be used and will excel in the accuracy category. Unless the Noveske is configured exactly how a person wants it to start with, then a custom build *could* be better than a factory Noveske for that person.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing at all against Colt, Noveske, or any other mfg of quality firearms. Of course, if someone isn't comfortable with or knowledgeable enough about building their own, they should just buy a complete gun and not worry about it. That just doesn't mean that custom builds are all inferior.
Overall, yes, I'm happy with the custom precision AR I built from scratch. But I knew what I wanted that rifle to do before I started. It took awhile to find the parts I needed to fit that criteria. Despite the plethora of AR parts available, there are really few options and fewer good options. There are a three things I'd change about my rifle- Barrel profile, scope and scope mount.
I'd like a lighter profile without going completely lightweight. I'm sure ADCO can take care of that for me.
I'd like to swap out the fixed 10x for a variable. The 10x is on loan from another rifle until I can save up enough money for a replacement. After that, I'm giving serious consideration to selling the 10x.
I'd like to replace the scope mount. Currently, I simply mounted the scope to the rifle with a set of rings. They work well enough but I cannot push the scope forward enough for proper eye relief. I have yet to find a mount that is close to what I want. I'm down to looking for an AR scope mount that I can modify to my needs.
Overall, these are minor details and taken together or separately are not enough to make me want to sell the rifle and start over.
To be truthful, many of the precision custom ARs I've see for sale are not very well thought out. Most look to be about 6 lbs heavier than they need to be.
To be honest, I doubt there are few folks that would like a rifle configured the same as mine
For most, it's like ticking extra boxes when buying a new car - usually overpriced junk added to something that's already functional, but there are things that really do make a difference and improve and maintain added value.
I'm certainly guilty of over-customizing my rifles, partly for the sake of making them different, but it hasn't dimished how happy I am with that rifle in the least. I like them better, and while there are times I look at the sticker price of a factory rifle and compare against mine which have tons of extra cost from various changes and modifications, I have to look at that as a cash opportunity cost to have bought something different (or more ammunition/training budget), but on the whole I'm still happy.
The other part is that I'm getting much better at what things to change - some I'm absolutely certain I'm going to keep making unique - others I've discovered are totally overrated, or at least not worth the cost unless you're buying it used from somebody who no longer wanted that part.
Didn't mean to upset anyone and I gave the caveat that my experience is limited. The reasons that I have seen people build "custom" guns are -
1. Have the same thing as a factory model for less
2. Have something built for a specific use - usually suppressed, accuracy, long range accuracy, etc
I still haven't met anyone yet who's built a home gun equal to either a 6920 if they're after goal 1, or something better than a factory Noveske if they're after goal 2.
I'm not saying a Noveske rifle is the holy grail but Noveske is one of the companies at the top of the industry, and if you can make something better than what they make for less $$ then you might want to open a shop! I would also contend that you are on the level of Grant, IG and Robb Jensen; and no longer fall into the "most fellows" category as the OP referred to. I understand that people like to customize and tinker, and my post wasn't saying that your guns are crap or that it's the wrong thing to do; I was saying in response to the OP's post that for "most fellows" it's the wrong way to go. There are some on M4C that have really nice custom builds but that isn't what most people have who build their own custom rifles, and most people would be better off with a factory gun. There are many more "custom built" ARs floating around than quality "customs". Go to a gunshow and you'll see "custom builds", and when you get down to brass tacks, they aren't to the level of a quality factory build. Chances are that if you researched the parts here on M4C and got the advice of some of the really high post count folks here then your rifle is a nice one, but even then, YOU aren't "most people" as you've educated yourself beyond what looks cool.
For me, there are a few reasons why I'm going the "Build Route."
- Sense of Pride: I like being able to say "I made this." There is a sense of satisfaction that cannot be diminished if you do it yourself. Of course, don't get me wrong... I'm not going to be machining an 80% lower or drilling my own gas ports. I understand the limits of my abilities and the potential harm I could do by trying to exceed them.
- Configuration: I'm forced to admit that I'm a meticulous "research nerd." I obsess over features, benefits and compromises. Once I had determined what I wanted, I also learned that none of the OEM rifles came close enough. To get what I wanted, I would have to tweak it.
- Cost/Benefit: I know a few people here would doubt this, but -- when all is said and done -- I'm actually going to save some money. If I started with the OEM rifle that came closest to what I wanted and then tweaked, I'd be in the hole. The added benefit is that I can spread the expense over time... and I have the luxury of waiting for sales. It's as if I offered myself 0% financing and 10% cash back.
So to make a long story short: I'll end-up with exactly what I want, pay the same (or less) for it... and be able to say "nobody else has this."
TangoSauce
12-07-11, 09:29
For me, there are a few reasons why I'm going the "Build Route."
- Sense of Pride: I like being able to say "I made this." There is a sense of satisfaction that cannot be diminished if you do it yourself. Of course, don't get me wrong... I'm not going to be machining an 80% lower or drilling my own gas ports. I understand the limits of my abilities and the potential harm I could do by trying to exceed them.
- Configuration: I'm forced to admit that I'm a meticulous "research nerd." I obsess over features, benefits and compromises. Once I had determined what I wanted, I also learned that none of the OEM rifles came close enough. To get what I wanted, I would have to tweak it.
- Cost/Benefit: I know a few people here would doubt this, but -- when all is said and done -- I'm actually going to save some money. If I started with the OEM rifle that came closest to what I wanted and then tweaked, I'd be in the hole. The added benefit is that I can spread the expense over time... and I have the luxury of waiting for sales. It's as if I offered myself 0% financing and 10% cash back.
So to make a long story short: I'll end-up with exactly what I want, pay the same (or less) for it... and be able to say "nobody else has this."
+1. Pretty much the same here.
I am sitting here on my couch looking at my almost complete first build. As I type I am waiting for the UPS truck to show up to deliver my last parts. They need to be signed for and I will be going to work soon! The clock is a ticking.
I am building my AR for many reasons. I started out looking for a complete rifle but money was a issue. Lay o way was an option but the rifle wasn't really exactly what I wanted. Funny thing is I didn't know anything about ARs except I wanted a chrome lined barrel and the one I wanted to put on lay o way wasn't. I have been shooting for many years but was never interested in AR until recently. So I picked up a few catalogs and started to look for something that would fit my needs. Well all that did was confuse me. All the 1:7, 8, 9 twist along with mid length, rifle and carbon length systems did nothing but confuse me even more.
I spent about 3 weeks looking and researching everything AR and discovered there were many poor companies and many great companies out there and I also discovered BCM. Buy the time I discovered BCM they were out of stock on the major parts I need for my build. I still couldn't afford to buy a complete rifle so I decided to do a build so I will have exactly what I wanted. Since BCM didn't have the parts that I needed in stock I started to order other parts and I needed to do more research. I still waited on BCM for about 4 to 6 weeks all together for my barrel but I was tired of waiting and went with a Noveske.
If UPS shows up before I go to work that will be a great start to my day! Come on UPS!!
I don't know why any one would want to dump their AR build unless they needed the money or they didn't do their build with quality parts and found that out later. I did my research and built my rifle with all quality parts. Funny thing is I didn't even consider a Colt. Not that I think Colt isn't a Quality AR but remember I didn't know anything about ARs and I didn't find anything on them on Youtube and even my local venders didn't have Colts.
I know that people can get factor build quality if they do there research, and use quality parts. I did my build for many reasons but the biggest factor was the money. That being said, I spent about $600.00 more then I really wanted to spend. I could have bought a complete Noveske, LMT, BCM, Colt to name a few, for the money I put into my first build.
Would I do it again? You all know the answer to that question! Will I sell my first? That would be like selling my first kid!
Still waiting on UPS!
AR's are easy to assemble since they are made up of mass produced parts which rarely require any special fitting. I've never found assembling an AR to be that difficult. Problem arises when someone wants to assemble one with no true knowledge of how it works, lacks proper tools, uses shitty parts, and isn't mechanically inclined. Using quality made parts makes it even easier and knowing what you're doing helps even more.
I am absolutely satisfied with my two custom builds which I use as duty rifles.
I was able to pick each part that went into each build based on my personal preferences and what I have found that works for me.
I was also able to supervise all of the quality control regarding assembly since I built it myself.
There is also the added satisfaction knowing that my personally built "custom" builds have performed & functioned flawlessly over thousands of rounds.:D
Problem arises when someone wants to assemble one with no true knowledge of how it works, lacks proper tools, uses shitty parts, and isn't mechanically inclined.True enough. An integral part of my plan has always been to:
- have friends who know more about a project than I do...
- bribe them to come over using steaks, hoagies or pizza...
- ask them to watch intently over my shoulder as I work...
- entreat them to stop me if I'm doing something stupid.
Short answer- yes
Longer answer-
I have built several custom builds that were as good as my LMT in every way for considerably less money (getting much harder to do), using the same quality parts and usually with more features. I get to play with it for awhile. See what I like in the way of rails, sights, parts kits, stocks and optics and then sell it off for a small profit. (none if it's people I know) Keeps the habit going and gives me a reason to go to the man cave.
But very, very few people get to shoot as much as they want. It's incredibly rare that anyone has a job where pulling the trigger is the primary skill that puts food on the table for their family. The rest of us have to fit in range time and money for shooting around work, kids, vacations, etc.
I think your forgetting how many Active/inactive/H-d'd people we have on this forum, or LEO's.
I'm still scratching my head on why 2 people on this thread are thinking Noveske is king shit. They are just a T1 company, like colt, LMT etc. None is really better then the other at this top tier level. It's all about what people need, and require. What one person may need, is completely different than another. The top tier marketplace wouldn't be as such if it wasn't this way. This is also why many people assemble guns like I said before, and many others have said in this thread. When buying a pretty damn expensive gun to begin with, it makes more sense just to build one up exactly how you want it, instead of paying a heavy sum for something, then having to end up swapping parts to make it perfectly fit what you need, thus adding major cost to what would be just custom build to begin with.
I'm sure there are a whole slew on this site who don't have a "factory" gun that fits exactly what they need. I sure didn't. Take a look around the custom section at some of the insanely beautiful guns and you will see almost instantly why some just don't want or need custom guns.
O, and to comment on the customs for sale, many times someone will build something up, and end up not liking it (nothing about function), so they sell it, and start over, rather than start changing parts like a madman and watching the $ amount go up and up. Sometimes if a gun is decent, but it doesn't fit you, it will fit someone else, so in case they will sell it off, and either start over, or start testing "factory guns". I think it's the same issue with "factory guns" in the end, as many a times something won't fit someones taste and need, so they either sell, or start modifying.
Didn't mean to upset anyone and I gave the caveat that my experience is limited. The reasons that I have seen people build "custom" guns are -
1. Have the same thing as a factory model for less
2. Have something built for a specific use - usually suppressed, accuracy, long range accuracy, etc
I still haven't met anyone yet who's built a home gun equal to either a 6920 if they're after goal 1, or something better than a factory Noveske if they're after goal 2.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LO3szk9d4vQ/TZngISj7IyI/AAAAAAAABXM/JzTb12c0eLQ/s1600/Challenge_accepted.jpg
BCM BFH 16" lightweight middy upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-light-weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw%20bfh.htm) ($489)
BCM bolt carrier group, auto (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm) ($140)
RRA middy handguards (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm) ($20)
BCM Gunfighter CH, Mod 4 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-GFH-Mod-4-p/bcm%20gfh%20mod%204%20556.htm) ($45)
Magpul MBUS Gen 2 rear BUIS (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-MBUS-Gen-2-Rear-Back-Up-Iron-Sight-Black-p/mag248%20black.htm) ($58)
BCM lower receiver group w/ M4 stock (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/156.htm) ($289)
Total rifle cost is $1046 plus shipping (bonus for it all being from one vendor), which includes $25 for transfer fee. If I assemble my lower, still using Bravo Co. as the vendor for everything but the lower receiver itself, I can trim $25 off the above cost. Swap the Gunfighter for a standard charging handle, save another $20. Swap the BHF for a standard BCM upper, save another $80. New price is $911 plus shipping, still including the transfer fee.
The second goal you mentioned is too broad, but if you'd like I can certainly give a good crack at it. It won't be much more than the above build, either, even factoring in barrel and handguard upgrades.
-B
BrigandTwoFour
12-07-11, 22:22
My first AR was a home build project spread over eight months. I did non-stop research for several months here and wevo before buying the first component. My rifle has been a flawless performer for few thousand rounds at this point, and holds very good accuracy.
That said, my reasoning for going the custom route was two fold (and in line with what others have said). I felt it was easier financially to buy a part or two per month spread out over several months- my need for instant gratification runs deep (but not as deep as my desire to not pile on credit card debt). Second, I figured it was easier to buy what I wanted right up at the front than to buy a factory build and change the hundreds of dollars in components that I wanted to change.
Now, my second build is going to be a factory BCM upper and a lower that I'll assemble again. Why? Well....the second build is more of a KISS build, and BCM does that perfectly (16" LW profile with FSP).
I am perfectly happy with my custom build. I've used other people's factory Colts, BCMs, and LMTs at my local gun club- and I honestly feel like mine gives up nothing to them. BUT, there were stressful moments during the assembly because I didn't completely trust the local gun shop owner to did the barrel mounting (to the point that I'm likely to have someone else redo it wen I replace my forearm with a longer one from Centurion Arms).
I think it's all a matter of components used. Trying to do things "on the cheap" compared to a factory build is not likely to stack up. But people who do their research around here and buy the best individual parts on the market and assemble them [properly] have nothing to worry about.
...
BCM BFH 16" lightweight middy upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-light-weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw%20bfh.htm) ($489)
BCM bolt carrier group, auto (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm) ($140)
RRA middy handguards (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm) ($20)
BCM Gunfighter CH, Mod 4 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-GFH-Mod-4-p/bcm%20gfh%20mod%204%20556.htm) ($45)
Magpul MBUS Gen 2 rear BUIS (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-MBUS-Gen-2-Rear-Back-Up-Iron-Sight-Black-p/mag248%20black.htm) ($58)
BCM lower receiver group w/ M4 stock (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/156.htm) ($289)
Total rifle cost is $1046 plus shipping (bonus for it all being from one vendor), which includes $25 for transfer fee. If I assemble my lower, still using Bravo Co. as the vendor for everything but the lower receiver itself, I can trim $25 off the above cost. Swap the Gunfighter for a standard charging handle, save another $20. Swap the BHF for a standard BCM upper, save another $80. New price is $911 plus shipping, still including the transfer fee.
...
...
===============================================
Although, to me, this is admirable and noteworthy, it is still less of a gun than G&R's Colt for $945 plus shipping & x-fers.
If you have to be a DIY'r, you can cut the Colt carry handle down to a nice fixed sight and have a superior sight too.
I do understand a person liking to assemble their own gun but I do not think "savings" is a truly justifiable reason in today's market especially for a basic carbine.
But please don't let you wife read my statement if the savings are your justification... Which brings up a good point when building your own, you are able to slip a gun in through the mail box piece by piece without the bride taking (too) much notice. ;)
But maybe it's just me...
.
Shoulderthinggoesup
12-07-11, 23:51
===============================================
Although, to me, this is admirable and noteworthy, it is still less of a gun than G&R's Colt for $945 plus shipping & x-fers.
.
Can you give a quantitative reason why the a BCM is "less of a gun"? Otherwise that is pure speculation based off of opinion. I want to see one area where the colt outperforms bcm in a testable way.
(Opinion)
I personally would take the BCM, especially with profile it offers for a civvy. The colt's m204 notch and heavy front end don't make much sense for me, as a civilian. I also do not find a detachable handle a superior sighting system in 2011.
Although, to me, this is admirable and noteworthy, it is still less of a gun than G&R's Colt for $945 plus shipping & x-fers.
The BCM build was done without bargain-hunting and in 5-10 minutes on their website. It has a superior barrel, superior charging handle, and will weigh less than the 6920. Both have the same stocks, both make in-spec lower receivers, both produce BCGs of good and known quality, and I highly doubt BCM's lower parts kit will fail any more QA/QC checks than Colt LPKs.
Where is it "less of a gun" than the 6920, exactly?
-B
TacticalSledgehammer
12-08-11, 00:52
I assembled mine.
This thread did give me pause to my build (I am also waiting on UPS, and backorders).
The actual base rifle with BUIS;
-Centurion CHF 16" C4 w/LPGB
-Centurion 12" C4 rail
-Vltor MUR-A1 receiver
-Gunfighter charging handle
-Auto BCG
-Troy M4 F&R folding BUIS
-PSA lower
-MIAD grip
-Vltor eMod A5
$1471.00 at my door.
What exactly I am getting for $500 over an off the shelf mass produced Colt? I would certainly presume better quality control.
For another $50-$150 I could still upgrade the lower to a Noveske, LMT, Spikes, BCM.... Another $100 I could up the FCG from milspec.
A complete high end one brand rifle, w/o BUIS was running the same to $2k.
It's the optics and accessories that get ya, at least those you can strip off and transfer to the next build.
I was just using Noveske as an example, like I said before, Noveske isn't the Holy Grail. Also, I wouldn't consider "custom" to be mating a factory pre-built lower and upper then adding back up irons and a charging handle. It seems to me that you're buying a factory rifle in pieces and just putting it together at home. Your factory available lightweight build is here but I don't know how much it goes for - http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Mid-16LW-Light-weight-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/148.htm
I do like the idea of spreading the cost out over time, that is a good idea, AND yeah getting another part every week or two would probably keep the build under my wife's radar. :)
BCM is a good rifle but saying that is equal to a Colt isn't fair, BCM & Colt are both top tier, but Colt holds the TDP.
Breadstick
12-08-11, 10:43
yes, I'm content with my..."assembly".
Fit exactly what I was looking for. With quality parts, specs. for under$800.
Not going to sell it...not worried about re-sell value.
I'm not selling ANYMORE of the guns I buy....I sold all my firearms off year and a half ago for finacial challenges...no more selling...was just to painfull.
Factory Dissipators (mock or otherwise) from Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske or the like aren't available....priced under a grand. Not going Bushy, or Oly for factory complete dissy.
Shoulderthinggoesup
12-08-11, 10:44
Having the TDP is great, but it is not a quantifiable/testable improvement. That does not mean it isn't a plus for colt, just that it does not mean bcm is a lesser weapon.
Also, I wouldn't consider "custom" to be mating a factory pre-built lower and upper then adding back up irons and a charging handle.
What is “custom” to you, then? Installing a lower parts kit or stock on a lower? Installing the barrel on an upper receiver or a FSB on a barrel? These things are only slightly harder than field stripping the rifle; I can’t see how they would amount to a “custom” rifle compared to my BCM example. Keep in mind that a lack of proper tools will preclude ground-up upper assemblies for a lot of us.
Personally, “custom” for me means something not offered in a factory rifle. Most of what I want in ARs will therefore be custom, by my definition. (Though BCM does a damn good showing at meeting needs in factory rifles since they offer so many configurations.)
In either case, I demonstrated exactly what your claim stated: putting together a rifle that is equal to or better than a 6920 and less expensive. As is, it exceeds the 6920 in three areas and is at or less than what the vast majority of well-priced vendors sell the 6920 for. Swapping to a standard charging handle and non-BHF upper makes it cheaper than G&R’s awesome pricing. The only functional differences between the two rifles are the detachable carry handle and carbine-length gas system on the Colt.
BCM is a good rifle but saying that is equal to a Colt isn't fair, BCM & Colt are both top tier, but Colt holds the TDP.
Sure it's fair. We have information available that lets us compare rifles (and their features) from the both companies. The famous Chart exists exactly for this purpose. So far as I can tell, BCM builds an equal rifle to the 6920. The example I provided exceeds the 6920 by having a better barrel, better charging handle, being lighter, and being less expensive than 6920s from all but one vendor. Downgrading the rifle to have equivalent features makes it less expensive than the 6920 from that one vendor.
To be clear, I'm not arguing with you for the sake of arguing, nor am I bagging on the 6920. It’s [i]the standard for ARs. I just disagree with the statement that someone can't put together a rifle that equals or exceeds the 6920 but costs less than the same. I did exactly that in 5-10 minutes on BCM's website and I bet I can do better for pricing if I shopped around longer.
-B
I fully understand and accept the argument that one cannot "apples to apples" compare Brand X to Colt because only the latter holds the TDP. That said... allow me to offer this:
- PSA Stripped Lower: $79.95
- PSA MOE HF M4 Upper: $379.99
- PSA MOE Stock Kit: $79.95
- Microbest NiB BCG: 169.95
- Spike's Enhanced LPK: $146.95
- Magpul Rear MBUS: $49.95
- BCM Gunfighter CH: $44.95
Total Price: $951.69
What you DON'T get is a rifle made by one of the two companies that hold the TDP (although you DO get a barrel made by FN). What you DO get is correct materials as certified per mil-spec. What you ALSO get is a slick trigger set and BCG, anti-rotation pins, an ambi selector, a beefy charging handle, a roomy trigger guard and quality furniture.
At the end of the day, the TDP is a set of minimum standards and allowable tolerances that an organization resistant to change will accept from the lowest bidder. Don't accept less, but remain on the lookout for more.
zombie killer
12-08-11, 11:07
I helped my Dad build a dissipator upper with parts from Noveske and BCM. He's very happy with it as am I. My custom uppers aren't necessarily available off the shelf, none the less I'm very happy with them.
Gotcha and understood. We've got a disconnect on what "custom" means. Since I'm new to the custom build forum, I was going off this.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82447
Truthfully, I don't know when something goes from a compilation of parts to being "custom", but does it really matter? I'd argue if you're getting what you want out of it for a price you can live with, then that's what's important.
TacticalSledgehammer
12-08-11, 13:07
I built my last one as a rifle I plan on keeping so resale value wasn't a concern. I'd rather build than buy a complete rifle mainly because I'm not paying for things I'm not gonna use. With more and more companies offering a product like Colt as far as specs go It's more economical to go this route like my build using LMT. I am however craving a bone stock 20" Colt for a range toy. I love A2 sights.
zipseattle
12-08-11, 19:43
My rifle is not really custom as defined here - complete upper, stripped lower, etc.
Ended up with everything I wanted and nothing I didn't - its a KISS rifle with irons only and a Geissele trigger. Got the enjoyment of assembling it myself with benefit of better understanding the system.
Doubt I'll ever sell it...
polydeuces
12-08-11, 20:13
Almost as an upside down argument - it is becoming harder to justify building your own just to save $$ simply because more and more there's some very high quality offerings, extremely reasonably priced.
Taking away the incentive to do it just to save money.
However there's no alternative to building your own, if you truly want to know how to troubleshoot and repair your rifle if the need arises, which usually happens at the most inconvenient of moments.
Still don't understand why people either think, or are set on "custom builds" to save money. IMO saving money is just the wrong way and reason to look at a custom build, unless you either have friends who get wholesale prices on parts, or work for a parts mfg (or are a complete uber internet sales prowler).
TacticalSledgehammer
12-08-11, 23:01
Still don't understand why people either think, or are set on "custom builds" to save money. IMO saving money is just the wrong way and reason to look at a custom build, unless you either have friends who get wholesale prices on parts, or work for a parts mfg (or are a complete uber internet sales prowler).
If you're gonna change out the HG, stock, sights, and other things why pay for them? I guess you could turn around and sell them cheap on the EE. I guess it's how custom you want your build to be in making your decision. If you look at my build on another thread in the forum, buying a complete rifle then swapping out stuff woulda cost me an additional $600
BrigandTwoFour
12-08-11, 23:37
Don't let this discussion dissuade you. What you're building looks like a very solid rifle.
The only thing that has ever given me cause to worry about it was thinking that some purists might not "approve" of my gun built from multiple brands of parts (particularly around here when I used a stripped lower and stripped upper from a particular company with a spider logo). But, in the end, what they think doesn't matter a lick as long as the rifle runs as well as it has.
This thread did give me pause to my build (I am also waiting on UPS, and backorders).
The actual base rifle with BUIS;
-Centurion CHF 16" C4 w/LPGB
-Centurion 12" C4 rail
-Vltor MUR-A1 receiver
-Gunfighter charging handle
-Auto BCG
-Troy M4 F&R folding BUIS
-PSA lower
-MIAD grip
-Vltor eMod A5
$1471.00 at my door.
What exactly I am getting for $500 over an off the shelf mass produced Colt? I would certainly presume better quality control.
For another $50-$150 I could still upgrade the lower to a Noveske, LMT, Spikes, BCM.... Another $100 I could up the FCG from milspec.
A complete high end one brand rifle, w/o BUIS was running the same to $2k.
It's the optics and accessories that get ya, at least those you can strip off and transfer to the next build.
Gotcha and understood. We've got a disconnect on what "custom" means. Since I'm new to the custom build forum, I was going off this.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82447
Truthfully, I don't know when something goes from a compilation of parts to being "custom", but does it really matter? I'd argue if you're getting what you want out of it for a price you can live with, then that's what's important.
IG's statement is actually why I came to the definition I currently use for "custom". I agree with your conclusion, though. If the rifle meets your needs and wants then it's a success, regardless of where the rifle is assembled. Addressing the first post, I think in many cases you find home-builds for sale is buyer's remorse. That happens when you buy things without knowing any better, then learn better, and realize you overspent, spent on crap, or some combination of the two.
-B
Don't let this discussion dissuade you. What you're building looks like a very solid rifle....
Thank you.
I spent a great deal of time researching and taking the advice from those more seasoned in the AR world (thank you jonconsiglio, & Monty). I had pretty much made my decision and placed the orders by the time my account over here got activated (1 week) to seek yet more input from this crowd.
Not giving up, although the backorders, lack of response from a few vendors (no talk, no money), the unwillingness to make a package deal (one would think you could get a little price break or price matching when you are ready to drop $2500 in one shot), nightmare hassle with one to get their payment info straight, certainly did put my resolve to task. Seems to be my fate in life when I do so much work to get specifically what I want in one shot.
Done by Christmas...not likely.
Will I be happy with it? It's my first AR. Of course I will, I don't know any better.
I was not seeking, or will I ever seek the "blessing" of of anyone else on what is or will be mine. I may ask for input on a question while I am trying to make a decision, but never do anything for the sake of pleasing the crowd. IMO, nor should anyone else.
So long as a person does the research, and takes advice on which direction to go from those with experience (not the brand lovers) when in doubt, and has a good idea of what they want the final product to look, feel and act like, then they should be good to go.
I wanted a rifle, with up to date technology, that will last and be constructed of quality components for reliability and accuracy. I don't go out to the range just to spray lead. I prefer the surgical precision approach and really like to hit what I aim at. The build should be capable of 1MOA or better, the rest is up to me.
Eurodriver
12-09-11, 06:38
I fully understand and accept the argument that one cannot "apples to apples" compare Brand X to Colt because only the latter holds the TDP. That said... allow me to offer this:
- PSA Stripped Lower: $79.95
- PSA MOE HF M4 Upper: $379.99
- PSA MOE Stock Kit: $79.95
- Microbest NiB BCG: 169.95
- Spike's Enhanced LPK: $146.95
- Magpul Rear MBUS: $49.95
- BCM Gunfighter CH: $44.95
Total Price: $951.69
What you DON'T get is a rifle made by one of the two companies that hold the TDP (although you DO get a barrel made by FN). What you DO get is correct materials as certified per mil-spec. What you ALSO get is a slick trigger set and BCG, anti-rotation pins, an ambi selector, a beefy charging handle, a roomy trigger guard and quality furniture.
At the end of the day, the TDP is a set of minimum standards and allowable tolerances that an organization resistant to change will accept from the lowest bidder. Don't accept less, but remain on the lookout for more.
You had me until you said anti-rotation pins.
wetidlerjr
12-09-11, 06:56
I did two "custom assemblies" on Bushmaster lowers that I have had for many years. One has this: BCM SS410 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ PRI 12" NATURAL Handguard 1/8 Twist (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid16%20ss410%20pri12nat.htm) (LMT BCG & GF CH) and the other has this: BCM Standard 16" M4 Carbine Upper Receiver Group (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm) (BCM BCG & GF CH). Both lowers have Geissele SSA triggers. :thank_you2:
This was the right path for me to take and resulted in two outstanding rifles that I have no intention of ever getting rid of. YMMV :cool:
I see so many custom builds for sale almost new, that I tend to think for most fellows it is the wrong path to take.
Thank you.
I spent a great deal of time researching and taking the advice from those more seasoned in the AR world (thank you jonconsiglio, & Monty). I had pretty much made my decision and placed the orders by the time my account over here got activated (1 week) to seek yet more input from this crowd.
Not giving up, although the backorders, lack of response from a few vendors (no talk, no money), the unwillingness to make a package deal (one would think you could get a little price break or price matching when you are ready to drop $2500 in one shot), nightmare hassle with one to get their payment info straight, certainly did put my resolve to task. Seems to be my fate in life when I do so much work to get specifically what I want in one shot.
Done by Christmas...not likely.
Will I be happy with it? It's my first AR. Of course I will, I don't know any better.
I was not seeking, or will I ever seek the "blessing" of of anyone else on what is or will be mine. I may ask for input on a question while I am trying to make a decision, but never do anything for the sake of pleasing the crowd. IMO, nor should anyone else.
So long as a person does the research, and takes advice on which direction to go from those with experience (not the brand lovers) when in doubt, and has a good idea of what they want the final product to look, feel and act like, then they should be good to go.
I wanted a rifle, with up to date technology, that will last and be constructed of quality components for reliability and accuracy. I don't go out to the range just to spray lead. I prefer the surgical precision approach and really like to hit what I aim at. The build should be capable of 1MOA or better, the rest is up to me.
Yep! What he said!
John Hearne
12-09-11, 08:09
I'm very happy with my "custom" upper. At the time I built it, there was not commercial equivalent and I'm not sure I could match it exactly today. It is met my goal of being reliable and as light weight as reasonably possible.
Having the cheapest gear possible doesn't appeal to me. Having the best gear I can afford does.
BCM Mid-Length Hammer Forged Barrel - had factory FSB, now cut and pinned, also pencil weight not available at time of purchase
BCM Ion Bond Bolt Carrier Group
Troy/Viking Tactics Rail
DD Front Sight
Troy Rear Sight
X300
Aimpoint Comp M2 (due for replacement)
http://dvctargets.com/misc/images/new_upper.jpg
The lower I already had and it has the Magpul CTR and the Colt Enhanced Trigger.
Still don't understand why people either think, or are set on "custom builds" to save money. IMO saving money is just the wrong way and reason to look at a custom build, unless you either have friends who get wholesale prices on parts, or work for a parts mfg (or are a complete uber internet sales prowler).If you're gonna change out the HG, stock, sights, and other things why pay for them? I guess you could turn around and sell them cheap on the EE. I guess it's how custom you want your build to be in making your decision. If you look at my build on another thread in the forum, buying a complete rifle then swapping out stuff woulda cost me an additional $600Exactly what happened with me. I could have gotten very close in an "off-the-shelf" rifle... and then swapped and tweaked to what I wanted. In the end, I am actually saving money by "cherry-picking" components from the get-go. (It helps that I am one of the "uber internet sales prowlers" of which you speak.
You had me until you said anti-rotation pins.They are included with my chosen LPK. It isn't as if they were on my list of "must-have" features.
You had me until you said anti-rotation pins.
...
...
...They are included with my chosen LPK. It isn't as if they were on my list of "must-have" features.
=========================================
To me...an LPK that includes anti-rotation pins is a "clue"... :rolleyes:
But maybe it's just me...
.
I was looking to buy a 'Tier 1" rifle a couple of months ago--GT Distributors had the Colt Carbine for under $1000 but wasn't in stock. Never being one who likes to wait, I decided to put my own together, with the best parts I could find.
Hearing that the lowers were built by what, 2-3 different companies, I bought a Mega Machine (off branded from a local company here in town--Hill Country Black Rifles-I'm a TX native so I prefer this) the LPK's are pretty much all sourced from the same place, and that the upper (BCM) and BCG (LMT) were the real critical factors in accuracy and reliability, I put my first one together (I unfortunately bought two lowers, so am putting together an 18" AR now).
Are the parts from the Tier 1 guns any better-I don't believe so. Did I put it together as well as the employee from Colt? Yes, I did (if I didn't, it wouldn't work). Did I pay more attention to the build process than the guy in the factory--hell yes, it is perfect.
I don't think my rifle is as good as a Colt or Noveske--but I know they are as good as mine, because I made it that way--well, me, BCM, LMT, Mega-Machine. And like others have said, most of us enjoy the research, the details, and the operation of the gun, we don't have the time or resources (or opportunity) to shot like the "operators", but I'm pretty sure their guns could keep up with mine given the same conditions.
If you're gonna change out the HG, stock, sights, and other things why pay for them? I guess you could turn around and sell them cheap on the EE. I guess it's how custom you want your build to be in making your decision. If you look at my build on another thread in the forum, buying a complete rifle then swapping out stuff woulda cost me an additional $600
I think you mis-understood me. I meant saving money in terms of building an identical gun to a "factory gun", which was basically what has been discussed. If you read my last posts in this thread you would notice that was one of my main points for making a custom, and not buying factory. IMO why buy something that you are just going to gut half of the crap off of and change, instead of just building it how you want from the start.
I was looking to buy a 'Tier 1" rifle a couple of months ago--GT Distributors had the Colt Carbine for under $1000 but wasn't in stock. Never being one who likes to wait, I decided to put my own together, with the best parts I could find.
Hearing that the lowers were built by what, 2-3 different companies, I bought a Mega Machine (off branded from a local company here in town--Hill Country Black Rifles-I'm a TX native so I prefer this) the LPK's are pretty much all sourced from the same place, and that the upper (BCM) and BCG (LMT) were the real critical factors in accuracy and reliability, I put my first one together (I unfortunately bought two lowers, so am putting together an 18" AR now).
Are the parts from the Tier 1 guns any better-I don't believe so. Did I put it together as well as the employee from Colt? Yes, I did (if I didn't, it wouldn't work). Did I pay more attention to the build process than the guy in the factory--hell yes, it is perfect.
I don't think my rifle is as good as a Colt or Noveske--but I know they are as good as mine, because I made it that way--well, me, BCM, LMT, Mega-Machine. And like others have said, most of us enjoy the research, the details, and the operation of the gun, we don't have the time or resources (or opportunity) to shot like the "operators", but I'm pretty sure their guns could keep up with mine given the same conditions.
Colt isn't the only top tier brand. But saying the parts from other companies (ie Stag etc) are as good as T1 parts has me scratching my head.
Also, just because your gun worked, doesn't mean you put it together as good as colt. There are plenty hillbilly hackjobs that "work". Many long term members on this site have proven, shown, and gone into great depth about things that make an ultra reliable gun (and I appreciate to the greatest extent. Some of the best writeups ever on builds on here).
I think your looking at it in opposite. It's not thinking top tier guns can keep up with yours, it's can yours keep up with theirs. It's always like this when comparing a home done job to a top end brand with insanely proven battle records in reliability and function.
I was looking to buy a 'Tier 1" rifle a couple of months ago--GT Distributors had the Colt Carbine for under $1000 but wasn't in stock. Never being one who likes to wait, I decided to put my own together, with the best parts I could find.
Hearing that the lowers were built by what, 2-3 different companies, I bought a Mega Machine (off branded from a local company here in town--Hill Country Black Rifles-I'm a TX native so I prefer this) the LPK's are pretty much all sourced from the same place, and that the upper (BCM) and BCG (LMT) were the real critical factors in accuracy and reliability, I put my first one together (I unfortunately bought two lowers, so am putting together an 18" AR now).
Are the parts from the Tier 1 guns any better-I don't believe so. Did I put it together as well as the employee from Colt? Yes, I did (if I didn't, it wouldn't work). Did I pay more attention to the build process than the guy in the factory--hell yes, it is perfect.
I don't think my rifle is as good as a Colt or Noveske--but I know they are as good as mine, because I made it that way--well, me, BCM, LMT, Mega-Machine. And like others have said, most of us enjoy the research, the details, and the operation of the gun, we don't have the time or resources (or opportunity) to shot like the "operators", but I'm pretty sure their guns could keep up with mine given the same conditions.
Damn. You are going to get hammered for this one but I'll go easy.
Please do not take this personally but about three quarters of what you posted is not even close to the truth here.
"all lowers are made by two or three companies"
(Are you talking forged by, or machined, engraved and finished by?) Either way, not true.
"all LPKs are all pretty much sourced from the same place"
Not true. Not even close.
"Are the parts from the Tier 1 guns any better-I don't believe so."
Not sure what "Tier 1" is but I know what you're trying to say. This is not even close to true.
After all this, you honestly want people to believe you built your very first AR (that you've ever built in your life) better than Colt could have? A manufacturer that holds the TDP and builds thousands per month for the past several decades?
Again, no personal offense here but I'm quite sure Noveske and Colt will have no trouble "keeping up" with your "Hill Country Black Rifles/BCM/LMT-basement special" rifle.
Holy shit man.
Having bought,partial built,complete built,and traded for many AR's from LMT to no names,including several Colts from SP1's to 80's Colt's and building dozens of AR's-I finally built myself the lightest
AR I could as the old bones finally made me pick something that I could fight with without going prone with a bi-pod,,It included a pencil
OLY stainless 16" barrel with a replaced gas block..Yes a OLY-that will shoot as good as any other 16" barrel that I've owned-but having been combat trained by WW2 and Korean EGA pro's-this was my road-I still have several other AR's also,but they are paper shooter's--but this is just a Chevy-Ford debate where there is no winner as we will do what we will and be happy with it !!!
Me personally, I went the build route for a number of reasons, being able to spread the cost out over a period of time, getting exactly what I wanted right off the bat without having to upgrade parts. Also being in CA has the downside of guns are more expensive, less available options and having to travel to get to gun shops that are worth giving my money to.
So far I've been able to collect everything but the upper and front sight, taking advantage of sales, discounts and deals when possible.
Mega Lower with Geissele SSA, BAD A.S.S. ambi, Noveske QD end plate, MOE grip, CTR stock, trigger guard and BAD lever, with RRA (gasp) filling in for the remainder of the lower parts.
Troy BUIS, VTAC MK sling, AFG, DD QD front sling mount, SureFire muzzle brake, BCM auto BCG, gunfighter mod 4 charging handle, to round out the rest, now I just need to get the money together for the Troy front BUIS and BCM 16" mid length BHF with the 13" VTAC handguard (I have long gangly arms)
I have an ACOG that I'll put on the rifle for now, but I also plan on replacing/ supplanting it with a Micro T and add a Surefire light up front, the scout light I have currently is way to big and heavy, need a smaller model.
I wouldn't consider this a custom build per say, but its mine and I think I did a pretty darn good job of researching and picking the parts, I'm confident I'll be able to run it at various carbine courses (which I will do, out of state) in the future without it shitting the bed on me.
I wouldn't consider this a custom build per say, but its mine and I think I did a pretty darn good job of researching and picking the parts, I'm confident I'll be able to run it at various carbine courses (which I will do, out of state) in the future without it shitting the bed on me.
Why would you not consider your build custom? You are putting together most of the parts and getting the parts that you want specifically for your needs. If you get the upper assembly from BCM and pin it on it is still a custom build.
I consider my build custom even though I bought the BCG w/Bolt already assembled.
Why would you not consider your build custom? You are putting together most of the parts and getting the parts that you want specifically for your needs. If you get the upper assembly from BCM and pin it on it is still a custom build.
I consider my build custom even though I bought the BCG w/Bolt already assembled.
Mainly because its just assembling off the shelf parts, I have the ability to fabricate my own parts if I so choose but I didn't, although that may change in the future (80% lower) Its cool having the knowledge and access to CNC machines :)
Mainly because its just assembling off the shelf parts, I have the ability to fabricate my own parts if I so choose but I didn't, although that may change in the future (80% lower) Its cool having the knowledge and access to CNC machines :)
So, when you do fabricate parts, post some pics of 100% custom hand made on your lathe and mill LPK, post pics of a lathed BCG, Barrel, sights, and also pics of your 80% lowers.
Not calling you out, but even with some of us being machinists, I assure you that literally almost no one minus a few complete nut heads have actually made every piece of their gun in their own shop.
Having access to a CNC makes what, a few parts on an AR. Having access to stoves, lathes, mills, and basically a full machine shop at the very least is required. But even with that, I doubt anyone would ever go as far as making their own springs. So by your definition of custom, basically something not 100% hand made is not custom. *scratching head*.
So, when you do fabricate parts, post some pics of 100% custom hand made on your lathe and mill LPK, post pics of a lathed BCG, Barrel, sights, and also pics of your 80% lowers.
Not calling you out, but even with some of us being machinists, I assure you that literally almost no one minus a few complete nut heads have actually made every piece of their gun in their own shop.
Having access to a CNC makes what, a few parts on an AR. Having access to stoves, lathes, mills, and basically a full machine shop at the very least is required. But even with that, I doubt anyone would ever go as far as making their own springs. So by your definition of custom, basically something not 100% hand made is not custom. *scratching head*.
Its all good, I probably didn't phrase my last reply in the best way, I didn't mean that its not custom unless everything is hand made, rather something, anything to give it that custom touch rather than just bolting everything together in a semi unique manner, not that there's anything wrong with that either.
Taking a few thou off the shoulder of the muzzle threads so your brake indexes correctly without needing a crush washer, thats a good touch. Another example, for 1911's, the process of dehorning and giving it that melted look.
But I do plan on doing an 80% lower soon, I have the prints so I'm going to write up the mastercam code and do it in the Haas. Still doing the research and trying to decide if I want to do the anodizing myself to or send it out. Eventually I would like to try and write the program for a complete lower, 0%
patriot_man
12-11-11, 00:57
I just buy a rifle and sell off parts I don't need. Find that I get just about the same amount of money back that I put in. For example a plan for my upcoming build:
Colt 6920CA $1115 shipped - Didn't need the barrel w/ handguards or the rogers stock or carry handle - Planning to sell those for $340, $80, and $80 respectively which puts it around $615 which would've been the cost of buying a complete Colt lower + the Surefire FA556 215 flash hider that comes with the upper. In the end I have all the parts I need: Lower, Upper, BCG and I can put on my desired parts.
I've built my own rifles before... Thought it was special at first but I find it more cost effective building from a base rifle.
I built my last rifle from scratch(outside of actually machining the parts). It was trial and some error, pure enjoyment though. I'm in the the process of another build and lovin it. I've got so many "top tier" parts to choose from and many more that may not be considered top notch here but I can choose them for my own reasons.
I firmly believe that I can put together properly a damn good rifle and feel good about using it now that I've had some experience with it, no I haven't built a hundred rifles but it starts with one. I was never concerned with the resale value of a "frankengun" as I intend to use them thoroughly, besides I've had no problems selling off individual parts in the past.
buckshot1220
12-13-11, 14:03
Not sure if anyone brought this up yet, and I apologize if they did as I haven't read every single post.
I originally got into "building" back when I lived in a ban state (a state that still has the AWB). I had gotten into AR's and regrettably bought a Bushmaster (2005 or so). After shooting it and becoming quite impressed with the AR platform I wanted more and began researching. That's where the problem arises. If you live in a ban state, it is very tough to get anything even close to what your are looking for. Many companies (especially at that time) did not offer pin/weld services for the muzzle brake,pinning the stock or removing the bayo lug. The rifles that you could get shipped in were all sub-par Bushies/Armalites/RRA's etc.
The only real option for those in ban states to get their hands on a quality rifle is to order the parts and assemble to meet your state's AWB. BCM's/LMT's/Noveke's etc would not exist in NY/NJ/CA etc if it weren't for people willing to order the parts and assemble rather than buying sub par commercial carbines with Y/Gill/AK-brakes from the 90's and A2 stocks
Personally, as already noted by others, being able to buy parts as funds become available is pretty invaluable.
Also, once you start assembling your own, if you are like many, you will accumulate extra parts. As those spare parts increase, they start beckoning to be turned into another complete carbine/rifle.
Plus it's just fun.
.
One option that I have used on many gun purchases to help ease the lump sum by spreading payments out is a lay-a-way.
Generally, you can only go 3-months. At some stores where I was a good customer, I have asked and was granted lay-a-ways uo to 6-months.
Just an option...
.
I would have to say I like custom builds best because I have actually never owned a factory rifle. I idea of building my own rifle has always appealed to me more. I even built my first ar, too picky I guess for factory. No factory rifles here!
Kickin-Ewoks
01-12-12, 18:56
I would have to say I like custom builds best because I have actually never owned a factory rifle. I idea of building my own rifle has always appealed to me more. I even built my first ar, too picky I guess for factory. No factory rifles here!
It seems like everytime I decide to buy a factory rifle I end up building one instead. My buddy is a MMS stocking dealer so when I go in there to order a rifle I see the Mega stripped lowers and I change my mind.
It seems like everytime I decide to buy a factory rifle I end up building one instead. My buddy is a MMS stocking dealer so when I go in there to order a rifle I see the Mega stripped lowers and I change my mind.
I love MMS!! They look and fit together great. Can't go wrong with a Mega lower/Mega mono upper. I like the Gen 2 mono's a lot better. Damn, since I got on here this week I have talked to 3 or 4 people about MMS as aposed to about 3 or 4 from the other forum in a year's period of time. I am still waiting on my Noveske Afghan for my MMS build. Damn I wish it would get here!
Most companies offer tons of options now and you can get pretty much exactly what you want. Its basically like getting a custom rifle.
On a bolt gun i see it differently though, it seems like custom is the way, and if you buy a gun from the factory you immediately spend 2k on a stock, action etc.
On a bolt gun i see it differently though, it seems like custom is the way, and if you buy a gun from the factory you immediately spend 2k on a stock, action etc.
Huh? Generally people don't ever custom build bolt guns. A trigger/fcg is one thing but everythng else??? I never ever do a 100% custom bolter but then again I'm not buying 400$ bolt guns. If you buy a 1200$ bolt gun the only thng you would ever need to change is the trigger. And replacing stocks... what kind of bolt guns are you buying that immediately need a new stock lol....
wetidlerjr
01-14-12, 15:16
...what kind of bolt guns are you buying that immediately need a new stock lol....
I don't see anything funny in replacing bolt gun stocks. There is more than one rifle out there that has a great action/barrel combo that doesn't have a stock that suits the use you may have for it. Many Savage bolt guns come immediately to mind. :cool:
ennbeegunny15
01-28-12, 18:16
I am sitting here on my couch looking at my almost complete first build. As I type I am waiting for the UPS truck to show up to deliver my last parts. They need to be signed for and I will be going to work soon! The clock is a ticking.
I am building my AR for many reasons. I started out looking for a complete rifle but money was a issue. Lay o way was an option but the rifle wasn't really exactly what I wanted. Funny thing is I didn't know anything about ARs except I wanted a chrome lined barrel and the one I wanted to put on lay o way wasn't. I have been shooting for many years but was never interested in AR until recently. So I picked up a few catalogs and started to look for something that would fit my needs. Well all that did was confuse me. All the 1:7, 8, 9 twist along with mid length, rifle and carbon length systems did nothing but confuse me even more.
I spent about 3 weeks looking and researching everything AR and discovered there were many poor companies and many great companies out there and I also discovered BCM. Buy the time I discovered BCM they were out of stock on the major parts I need for my build. I still couldn't afford to buy a complete rifle so I decided to do a build so I will have exactly what I wanted. Since BCM didn't have the parts that I needed in stock I started to order other parts and I needed to do more research. I still waited on BCM for about 4 to 6 weeks all together for my barrel but I was tired of waiting and went with a Noveske.
If UPS shows up before I go to work that will be a great start to my day! Come on UPS!!
I don't know why any one would want to dump their AR build unless they needed the money or they didn't do their build with quality parts and found that out later. I did my research and built my rifle with all quality parts. Funny thing is I didn't even consider a Colt. Not that I think Colt isn't a Quality AR but remember I didn't know anything about ARs and I didn't find anything on them on Youtube and even my local venders didn't have Colts.
I know that people can get factor build quality if they do there research, and use quality parts. I did my build for many reasons but the biggest factor was the money. That being said, I spent about $600.00 more then I really wanted to spend. I could have bought a complete Noveske, LMT, BCM, Colt to name a few, for the money I put into my first build.
Would I do it again? You all know the answer to that question! Will I sell my first? That would be like selling my first kid!
Still waiting on UPS!
well said, my 1st build/assy. was a bcm 14.5 mid, runs like a top. other than my own bad reloads and some neutered mag issues(i'm in cali, so the blocked pmags have issues.) it's been a good rig. i can't see myself selling it.
p22shooter30
01-28-12, 19:40
i will take the two rifles i built over two factory rifles any day of the week. even though my wife's has pink furniture. ;)
...even though my wife's has pink furniture. ;)
I'm all for curing breast cancer, but that's just wrong for an AR15/M4... :D
~Dan
I built my AR and I built my home PC (one and two years ago respectively) and am very glad I did. I have more of a 'connection' if you will, with something I built myself. On top of that, both run flawlessly and neither has given me any trouble at all. That said, I bought my upper receiver as one full unit so that could be why I've had no issues with it.
To many people "Build" AR's without having fired a single round out of one. They simply do not know what they don't know and once they do know, they realize that what they built isn't what they want or need.
This is why you see a lot of them for sale.
It is always better to buy a stock rifle (with generic furniture), shoot it at a class or two, shoot other peoples guns and then choose.
C4
My custom build makes me happy on several different levels.
1. I got to help out a friend who just started marketing his own brand of stripped lower.
2. I got to make "matching" rifles with my work partner, and spending a morning with her was a fun social event. We no longer work together on a day to day basis, so we often have to kluge time together.
3. I saved maybe $50. I have 100% confidence in my ability to assemble an AR from parts, though, as this was like my 10th build.
Originally Posted by Freedoooom
Quote:
The pistons more sealed use of gas allows for a stonger action and on top of that the BCG doesn't get as hot causing it to expand.
Reply With Quote
God, I hope I never say anything stupid because mocking people seems to be the norm around here rather than helping them unlearn what they think they know. Do the rules we all agreed to mean nothing? :confused:
I've been well pleased with my first build. It has run great for a few thousand rounds now. I also used top shelf components.
Did I save any money? Maybe only a marginal amount at best. But I got just exactly what I wanted.
Are you truly happier with your custom build than with a factory rifle?
Yes, all of my "assembled from individually purchased parts" rifles.
God, I hope I never say anything stupid because mocking people seems to be the norm around here rather than helping them unlearn what they think they know. Do the rules we all agreed to mean nothing? :confused:
Thick skin is required sometimes. Most don't have it and is why we have so many "lurkers" and very few "posters" for 50,000K membership.
With that said, if you see something totally out of line, hit the report button the thread and a mod should appear.
C4
I think I purchased 3 or 4 ARs before I started my first build (I received a free blem Noveske lower and figured that it was time to learn).
There really is no substitute in the knowledge that you gain by doing it yourself. Unless, of course, the knowlegdge that you gain is that you weren't smart enough to do it in first place and you have a catastrophic failure that results in a serious injury.
To many people "Build" AR's without having fired a single round out of one. They simply do not know what they don't know and once they do know, they realize that what they built isn't what they want or need.
yet defend it to the death regardless...:jester:
I have seen firsthand guys that make poor choices at "build" time that in turn have trouble using their finished "build" the way they actually use it, but that will insist that it's "the best" regardless. and just because something is expensive, or well regarded, or the best for some applications, doesn't necessarily mean it's best for everyone.
I feel quite confident and pleased with the rifles and carbines I have assembled. I used quality parts from reputable manufacturers and didn't end up with a box or bin of parts that I didn't want or need.
God, I hope I never say anything stupid because mocking people seems to be the norm around here rather than helping them unlearn what they think they know. Do the rules we all agreed to mean nothing? :confused:
There's other sites that coddle stupidity. That's what sets this site apart... most of the time anyway... :p
I've never owned an AR, or any other rifle for that matter. I'm "building" my first right now; a BCM middy. I know what I want, so I don't feel the need to shoot others.
I'm not going all "tacticool" from the start. I almost purchased a quad rail but after some serious thinking and debating; it's going to be a LW middy w/ fixed irons, Magpul handguards, etc. I'll eventually maybe get a quad rail and optics but I feel this is a good starting point for anybody.
Why would you not be satisfied with a custom build over a factory rifle? You can build it exactly like a factory, or better, so why regret it? I don't get it. Mine is almost complete and it's going to be 100% BCM, not a frankengun!
I trust my handloaded ammo more than factory ammo because it is loaded to my specs and has proven more reliable and accurate than factory ammo. Same principles apply to the rifles I have built.....I know exactly what's in them and know that they were properly assembled from high quality parts
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
...
Why would you not be satisfied with a custom build over a factory rifle? You can build it exactly like a factory, or better, so why regret it? I don't get it. Mine is almost complete and it's going to be 100% BCM, not a frankengun!
Maybe you ought to define, or at least give your definition of "Frankengun" before you toss that term out there.
Maybe you ought to define, or at least give your definition of "Frankengun" before you toss that term out there.
I assume he is referring to a rifle assembled using parts from various companies since he compared it to his 100% BCM build.
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