View Full Version : Body armor failure and questions.
My dept recently had an officer get shot. The .40 S&W hollowpoint struck the officers vest approximately 1/4 inch from the bottom of the level IIIA armor panel. The round penetrated the armor and severely injured the officer. He was treated and is doing better. The vest was only 3 years old.
Afterwards we recieved some rating information and it seems that these vests are not tested near the edges. Is it common for rounds to penetrate near the edges?
I also found it concerning that these vests will only stop a 9mm fired from a submachine gun 50 percent of the time.
My department is doing some testing with the vest and others like it to see why it didnt stop a round its rated to stop.
militarymoron
12-07-11, 12:13
moved to terminal ballistic forum.
IIRC, the manufacturer specifies the edge distance that the armour is supposed to be tested, but it cannot be more than 2" from the edge of the panel.
1/4" is pretty darn close to the edge.
There is much more to the ratings than just what rounds they will stop. How close to the edges, how many hits, velocity the ammunition is traveling at etc.
IIRC, the Colorado verification test is one of the better testing methods.
Did the round actually perforate the armor at the impact site, or did it deform or crush the edge enough to allow the round to pass around it?
Did the round actually perforate the armor at the impact site, or did it deform or crush the edge enough to allow the round to pass around it?
That was my thought also.
According to the memo going around it actually penetrated the armor. Any officers that have the vest are being told to let their supervisors know and I think the dept is gonna buy them new ones.
SeriousStudent
12-07-11, 19:35
Prayers sent that the wounded officer makes a speedy and complete recovery.
Body armor is one of those things that isn't very sexy and is often overlooked until you need it. Having experienced the wonders of kevlar I can't overstate how important getting a good vest and proper fit is.
I would take a look a look at the latest testing protocol that DocGKR posted once concerning contact shots, etc... I seem to remember reading something about edge shots. I may be wrong.
Hitting that close to the edge I would expect a failure to stop the bullet.
I too would expect that at the edge effectiveness to be reduced (it still protected the most vital areas), but if the failure modality of the vest is what the rumor mill mentioned above puts it as, then it's hard not to question how a hit elsewhere on the vest would do.
I hope the officer makes a speedy recovery, prayers with him and his family.
Maybe the dept. looking into this will have some positive results too.
Body armor is one of those things that isn't very sexy and is often overlooked until you need it. Having experienced the wonders of kevlar I can't overstate how important getting a good vest and proper fit is.
Agreed 100%. My armor is expired, but I am waiting for a new vendor to get our contract. The current vendor measures us for sports bras.
My wife used to be a C.S. rep in charge of federal contracts for a major body armor manufacturer. When she first saw my "sports bra," she about lost her mind.
The cut of my current armor makes me think I am even more uncovered than I previously believed. I had not given much thought to the vulnerability of edge shots.
Body armor is one of those things that isn't very sexy and is often overlooked until you need it. Having experienced the wonders of kevlar I can't overstate how important getting a good vest and proper fit is.
Agreed 100%. My armor is expired, but I am waiting for a new vendor to get our contract. The current vendor measures us for sports bras. My wife used to be a C.S. rep in charge of federal contracts for a major body armor manufacturer. When she first saw my "sports bra," she about lost her mind. The cut of my current armor makes me think I am even more uncovered than I previously believed. I had not given much thought to the vulnerability of edge shots.
Every body armor manufacturer guideline I've seen for vest fit sucks, in no uncertain terms. I gave up on their forms years ago, and now send tracings of panels I had custom made whenever I need a new vest.
The back and forth to get a truly good fit is worth it. Unless you gain or lose a lot of weight thereafter, you usually will only have to do it once in a great while.
I gave up on their forms years ago, and now send tracings of panels I had custom made whenever I need a new vest.
Who provides this service and what are the prices like?
My dept recently had an officer get shot. The .40 S&W hollowpoint struck the officers vest approximately 1/4 inch from the bottom of the level IIIA armor panel. The round penetrated the armor and severely injured the officer. He was treated and is doing better. The vest was only 3 years old.
Afterwards we recieved some rating information and it seems that these vests are not tested near the edges. Is it common for rounds to penetrate near the edges?
Yes.
I also found it concerning that these vests will only stop a 9mm fired from a submachine gun 50 percent of the time.
I think you may be referring to a "V50" test, where armor is tested to a velocity where 50% of the rounds are stopped, and 50% pass through, often with a 9mm bullet. That figure is the "V50". The higher the number the better.
My department is doing some testing with the vest and others like it to see why it didnt stop a round its rated to stop.
If it was struck within 1/4" of the edge of the vest, it most likely wasn't rated to stop that. Most/all soft body armor isn't. Even the latest NIJ body armor standard uses a 2" from edge minimum. Body armor isn't magic or a force field. Soft armor acts like a net. Get too close to the edge and there's not enough mass to spread out the impact of the bullet.
I know it's a stressful time, (been there, done that plenty), but your department needs to take a breath, and learn what actually occurred. If you don't have someone on staff that understands ballistics and soft body armor, than they need to seek help from another agency, NIJ, etc., to complete the investigation. They shouldn't be doing any testing on the actual vest in question.
Every body armor manufacturer guideline I've seen for vest fit sucks, in no uncertain terms. I gave up on their forms years ago, and now send tracings of panels I had custom made whenever I need a new vest.
The back and forth to get a truly good fit is worth it. Unless you gain or lose a lot of weight thereafter, you usually will only have to do it once in a great while.
More armor, costs more, so I've seen some manufacturers and vendors undersize, trying to keep costs down. Even most of the ones that do "custom fitting" just try and stick you in a stock size. The first one I got issued looked like it was made for a 10 year old.
More armor, costs more, so I've seen some manufacturers and vendors undersize, trying to keep costs down. Even most of the ones that do "custom fitting" just try and stick you in a stock size. The first one I got issued looked like it was made for a 10 year old.
I once had a manufacturer rep tell me that there was no way I could wear a vest in the dims I brought in to order, and he had to refit me properly. We went around and around for a time, with him pointing out how stupid I was, and how he and his employer knew better.
He hadn't bothered to ask what I was wearing at the time, which was what my new order had been measured and traced from. After showing him, he looked a little sheepish and a lot like he knew he was about to get run over by a truck. I ended up with competitor product.
I once had a manufacturer rep tell me that there was no way I could wear a vest in the dims I brought in to order, and he had to refit me properly. We went around and around for a time, with him pointing out how stupid I was, and how he and his employer knew better.
He hadn't bothered to ask what I was wearing at the time, which was what my new order had been measured and traced from. After showing him, he looked a little sheepish and a lot like he knew he was about to get run over by a truck. I ended up with competitor product.
I've had this crap happen as well.
I always point out that I have been wearing various body armor of some sort almost daily for over 25 years. I then ask them how many days a week they wear a vest.
The STFU message is loud and clear.
I've had this crap happen as well.
I always point out that I have been wearing various body armor of some sort almost daily for over 25 years. I then ask them how many days a week they wear a vest.
The STFU message is loud and clear.
True, too much armor is sold by people who know more about hemming pants than armor.
But the other side of the coin is how the vast majority of cops, don't have even the slightest knowledge about that vest they've been wearing daily for the last 25 years.
We all know (and complain about), how little most of the guys we've worked with know about the gun/ammo they carry. The average knowledge of the body armor they wear is a tiny fraction of that. I remember when my agency issued a level II vest, a bunch of guys I worked with went and bought their own level I T shirt vests, (remember those?). They would brag about how light and comfortable they were, and that they worked "just as good". "They stop .38, 9mm and .45" they would say. When I would point out the velocities listed on their vest, were well below a lot of common rounds, they would just shrug and ignore it. I've seen guys shocked, when they found out the soft level II vest we were issued wouldn't stop rifle rounds. Yet when I was involved in testing vests for my department, trying to engage most guys about it, beyond "comfort", was like pulling teeth.
Armor, like a gun, is equipment, and it's bullshit how few bother to learn anything about either, beyond scuttlebutt at lineup.
Generalpie
12-10-11, 19:23
That is so true on many levels. Vests are a fine line between comfort and protection.
In this case I am not suprised there was a failure that close to the edge.
As bad as it is getting the guys to listen you should try getting the bosses to look at rifle plates. We are mostly rural and every other house has a hunting rifle.
Best wishes and a fast recovery. We are pulling for you brother.
Mine fits for shit, and is really uncomfortably .. especially if I try to sit down. But this thread isn't about that.
Godspeed to the officer, I hope he recovers quickly and fully.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 23:05
I also found it concerning that these vests will only stop a 9mm fired from a submachine gun 50 percent of the time.
that's some good ol' fashioned Anchorman marketing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjvQFtlNQ-M
] The round penetrated the armor and severely injured the officer. He was treated and is doing better.
Wow. I wish him the best.
Where was the armor made?
Skintop911--Good questions. Manufacture and model are very important to know. Likewise, I'd like to see good quality photos of the vest and purported penetration area.
sgtjosh--Armor may no longer be covered under warranty, but it does not "expire".
Inadequate vest coverage due to poor initial measuring is a major problem, as is improper vest wear by officers typically as a result of inadequate knowledge and instruction.
"Any officers that have the vest are being told to let their supervisors know and I think the dept is gonna buy them new ones."
Pending additional information and testing, this is a lame knee-jerk reaction.
C-grunt--As JakesDad notes, ALL armor ever made has a V50 level. V50 is a standard test protocol that is used along with V0 to assess armor capability. JakesDad offers excellent advice; ask someone who knows what they are doing to help assess the armor--I'd recommend contacting the FBI BRF in Quantico...
Where was the armor made?
Frankly, that's the least important question at this stage. If the vest truly was struck within 1/4" of the edge, it in all probability, didn't fail.
As Doc points out, reacting before the verified data is known, is lame and knee jerk, and it causes officers to doubt their equipment needlessly. We had one shooting on my department where the officer was struck in the side, before we started issuing vests with side coverage. The immediate rumor mill said the vest "failed". 5 or 6 years later, I'd still hear guys talking about "that vest that got penetrated".
Don't even get me started about the shootings we had where the scuttlebutt said our ammo "failed", when the crook wasn't hit, or was hit in an extremity.
Buford Boone
12-14-11, 08:14
C-grunt: If you will call me at 703-632-1753, I'll be glad to see if there is any way we can assist you.
Call today, if possible. I've got a busy day tomorrow and AL to burn after that.
Buford Boone
FBI BRF
If the article in the Phoenix paper is correct, the vest was made by a manufacturer no longer in business.
CAT was the armor side of DBT; DBT has subsequently merged with First Choice Armor and are still in business: http://dbtarmor.com/.
Should have figured they got it wrong...
PatrolRifleGroup
12-14-11, 22:52
My department's armor contract is coming back up for bid, so the regional Safariland reps brought in one of their techs for an explanation of the new NIJ 06 standards. The new testing standards are impressive to say the least.
Based on what I've read here, if the bullet struck 1/4 inch from the edge, it never stood a chance of being stopped. One of the older standards included random hits 2" from the edge of the vest. The NIJ increased the standard for 06 to multiple random hits along 1" from the edge of the vest. I don't think at 1/4 " there was enough material to catch/absorb/stop the bullet.
There was a ton of useful information on the new standards. I believe the biggest thing you'll see with the new NIJ 06 will be the elimination of your mom and pop armor shops. It used to be that the manufacturers could submit any size panels for testing, and that testing was around $5000.
As it was explained to me, manufacturers could alter the size of the panel enough to get super thin armor to pass. Now the panel sizes are standardized, and each manufacturer must submit a set number of them. Bottom line is that the cost to get an armor package certified jumped from $5000 to roughly $28000, per package that needs to be tested. Only the bigger manufacturers will be able to afford the testing.
At the end of the day, any armor that passes the new NIJ 06 standards is high quality stuff.
My department's armor contract is coming back up for bid, so the regional Safariland reps brought in one of their techs for an explanation of the new NIJ 06 standards. The new testing standards are impressive to say the least.
Safariland's sizing calculations and resulting fit have been a matter of some angst and frustration with agencies. What are they doing with you guys?
Safariland's sizing calculations and resulting fit have been a matter of some angst and frustration with agencies. What are they doing with you guys?
Paraclete, our vendor de jour, seems to have the same issue with the vast majority of the armor we are receiving being sent back for alteration because of poor fit. I placed an order for new armor this week. It'll take damn near a fiscal quarter before I see my order but I am anxious to see the cut, as I spent quite a bit of time to ensure that I measured correctly.
PatrolRifleGroup
12-18-11, 00:01
Safariland's sizing calculations and resulting fit have been a matter of some angst and frustration with agencies. What are they doing with you guys?
They're currently using a few different sizing vests for their measurements. We've used these in the past, with mixed results. Safariland has taken it one step further and is actually using kevlar in their sizing vests. We'll have to see if it makes a difference.
In my opinion, half the problem with sizing errors lies partly to blame with the Officers themselves. As you are probably aware, no one is more picky than the individual Officer. I think the troops in general got used to some of the more thin vests made of the ultra lightweight materials a few years back. You know, the ones that ultimately failed over time.
The new standards and materials, while much safer, are also much heavier. Guys don't like it. I personally had one of the thinner vests that was recalled, and never liked the feel of it. I never really felt secure in it, and it had a tendancy to roll at the edges. I like my armor to feel like, well, armor. I don't mind if it's a little stiff or hot at times, it's keeping me safe. I was issued new IIIa armor in 2010 manufactured under the NIJ 05 interim standards. Using the sizing vest, it came out just fine. I like the fit and it's as comfortable as it should be.
Hey guys sorry for the long delay its been kinda crazy at my house. Just an FYI for you guys, Im not in any sort of position to be in the know about how my department is handling this. Im just a lowely patrol guy who was curious about the edge hits. They havent realeased any more info to us and because its part of an ongoing shooting investigation I doubt I could get any info anyways.
Hey guys sorry for the long delay its been kinda crazy at my house. Just an FYI for you guys, Im not in any sort of position to be in the know about how my department is handling this. Im just a lowely patrol guy who was curious about the edge hits. They havent realeased any more info to us and because its part of an ongoing shooting investigation I doubt I could get any info anyways.
Hopefully they'll investigate it without trying to make it a press event. The media loves body armor stories, and some Chiefs/Sheriffs love to feed them. That's gotten more guys killed than any body armor issues, imho.
Hopefully they'll investigate it without trying to make it a press event. The media loves body armor stories, and some Chiefs/Sheriffs love to feed them. That's gotten more guys killed than any body armor issues, imho.
They havent yet and with the current stuff going on with Sheriff Joe Arpiao here, the news has bigger stories to go after.
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