View Full Version : Can Some One Explain This To Me?
devildogljb
12-07-11, 20:18
So im watching Sons Of Guns(yes i know its bull but i find it funny) and a sheriff office is getting a mk 19 along with a m240b. Ok i kind of get the m240b, but the mk 19? What in the hell would they need a mk 19 for?
So im watching Sons Of Guns(yes i know its bull but i find it funny) and a sheriff office is getting a mk 19 along with a m240b. Ok i kind of get the m240b, but the mk 19? What in the hell would they need a mk 19 for?
Most cops now think they are some form of domestic military force. Among those some believe they are some kind of special force. Given this misguided belief they of course need belt feds, Mk 19s and APCs.
Also somebody is sure to come along and suggest the MK 19 could fire LTL rounds, but everyone knows they already have plenty of 37mm devices for that application.
We should also keep in mind the nature of the Bubba SO that we are dealing with. The fact that they deal with RJF and buy nonsense like Thompson "entry guns" shows that they are very much outside of the LE mainstream when it comes to sensible purchases.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the actual intended purpose of the Mk 19 is the July 4 fireworks display.
Can someone explain the point of installing smoke grenade launchers (not the mk19) to the sides of the boat?
Seems a bit pointless for maritime operations.
Most cops now think they are some form of domestic military force. Among those some believe they are some kind of special force. Given this misguided belief they of course need belt feds, Mk 19s and APCs.
I think you're playing it kind of fast and loose with "most" there.
We should also keep in mind the nature of the Bubba SO that we are dealing with. The fact that they deal with RJF and buy nonsense like Thompson "entry guns" shows that they are very much outside of the LE mainstream when it comes to sensible purchases.
The latter part of your post makes a bit more sense.
I didn't catch what county and state this was, but I would be pretty pissed as a tax payer unless there was a very well articulated need. The Coast Guard employs M240Bs in an extremeley limited role. I can't see how on the mainland US you could justify it.
devildogljb
12-07-11, 20:40
Most cops now think they are some form of domestic military force. Among those some believe they are some kind of special force. Given this misguided belief they of course need belt feds, Mk 19s and APCs.
Also somebody is sure to come along and suggest the MK 19 could fire LTL rounds, but everyone knows they already have plenty of 37mm devices for that application.
We should also keep in mind the nature of the Bubba SO that we are dealing with. The fact that they deal with RJF and buy nonsense like Thompson "entry guns" shows that they are very much outside of the LE mainstream when it comes to sensible purchases.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the actual intended purpose of the Mk 19 is the July 4 fireworks display.
I wanted to say something about that but i felt i would be opening up a can of worms i did not want too and i would be branded as anti police or what not. Im far from anti police or what not. But i feel like some departments like you said are becoming a small military force and im afraid later on down the road for me and my future children we are going to have local authorities patrolling in apc's with mk19's mounted (over execrated). Please don't take this as i am disrespecting any of our local and state police officers. Alot of these bills and laws that are being passed or on their way to being passed scares the crap out of me.
devildogljb
12-07-11, 20:44
I didn't catch what county and state this was, but I would be pretty pissed as a tax payer unless there was a very well articulated need. The Coast Guard employs M240Bs in an extremeley limited role. I can't see how on the mainland US you could justify it.[/QUOTE]
Some one can correct me if im wrong but this is being mounted on a sheriff patrol boat in Louisiana
Smuckatelli
12-07-11, 20:54
Can someone explain the point of installing smoke grenade launchers (not the mk19) to the sides of the boat?
Seems a bit pointless for maritime operations.
Obscuration.
It's harder to hit the smoke grenade launching boat if you can't get a clear picture.
The opposing forces know that there is a boat or amtrac in the water but it is harder to draw a bead on them it the target is indistinct or unclear.
But i feel like some departments like you said are becoming a small military force and im afraid later on down the road for me and my future children we are going to have local authorities patrolling in apc's with mk19's mounted (over execrated).
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/06/from-warfighter-to-crimefighter/
According to a periodical by the government office in charge of equipping law enforcement agencies with surplus military gear, Fiscal Year 2011 was a record year in property transfers from the US military’s stockpiles to police departments around the nation. The transfers took place under a program that explicitly allows law enforcement agencies to acquire such goods for free. In FY2011, the value of these acquisitions amounted to half-a-billion dollars.
You realize there are over 40,000 SWAT raids a year in America right? There were over 800 Humvees and 27 armored vehicles issued to police agencies in 2011 alone. They're getting armored APC's to patrol American streets and in my eyes that's overkill, unless you're talking Detroit. ;)
First off you have to understand that this whole show is a ****ing joke and everything is staged to make it cool for TV.
My wife was asking me the same question. When I was in the Coast Guard it was pretty standard for us to have M240's mounted on various small boats and ships. In some cases we also have .50's.
The only CG units to have the MK19 was my old unit in Bahrain and the Port Security Units (PSU's.)
They way that they have these set up on the boats is pretty silly and I cannot see them being able to employ them practically. They would have been better off mounting the M240 on the bow.
As for their use of the MK19 I really have to question this. For one where are the police depts going to get quantities of 40MM rounds for the weapon? They are not the same as the rounds used in the M203.
The other thing is the liability factor. Does the sheriffs dept have a written doctrine on how and when the MK19 will be employed? How much training will they have? What about qualification with it?
In this day and age when some depts cannot even buy patrol rifles for their officers/deputies and they are cutting budgets I don't see how they are able to justify and afford a MK19 and M240 machine gun. Not to mention the other issues I have mentioned.
I think you're playing it kind of fast and loose with "most" there.
If it makes you feel better, fell free to substitute "a lot" for "most." But quite honestly, there are quite a few that would not consider themselves civilians, I have even met "more than a few" who have been offended by the notion.
I wish it wasn't the case, I consider myself a supporter of law enforcement.
The latter part of your post makes a bit more sense.
I didn't catch what county and state this was, but I would be pretty pissed as a tax payer unless there was a very well articulated need. The Coast Guard employs M240Bs in an extremeley limited role. I can't see how on the mainland US you could justify it.
Baton Rouge, LA 70814
First off you have to understand that this whole show is a ****ing joke and everything is staged to make it cool for TV.
In fairness, there is a LOT to that in this particular case. Probably can't be overstated.
Can someone explain the point of installing smoke grenade launchers (not the mk19) to the sides of the boat?
Seems a bit pointless for maritime operations.
I agree. Wouldn't a handheld launcher be more versatile?
Additionally, I did not understand mounting the guns on the back of the boat. Do you have to pass a target to engage it? Do you back up to it?
Admittedly I have very limited maritime experience, but I did not get it.
I get the M-240B. You need to be able to disable other watercraft and protect bridges/infrastructure like levees from attack. A Mk-19 does seem over the top.
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/06/from-warfighter-to-crimefighter/
You realize there are over 40,000 SWAT raids a year in America right? There were over 800 Humvees and 27 armored vehicles issued to police agencies in 2011 alone. They're getting armored APC's to patrol American streets and in my eyes that's overkill, unless you're talking Detroit. ;)
The APC's are great for recovering downed officers.
With cartel violence spilling over at an increasing rate, those of us on the southwest border appreciate all the equipment/training we can get.
devildogljb
12-08-11, 00:32
I agree. Wouldn't a handheld launcher be more versatile?
Additionally, I did not understand mounting the guns on the back of the boat. Do you have to pass a target to engage it? Do you back up to it?
Admittedly I have very limited maritime experience, but I did not get it.
I get the M-240B. You need to be able to disable other watercraft and protect bridges/infrastructure like levees from attack. A Mk-19 does seem over the top.
The APC's are great for recovering downed officers.
With cartel violence spilling over at an increasing rate, those of us on the southwest border appreciate all the equipment/training we can get.
Well to me the m240b makes sense in a way up front of the boat. But don't they have the coast guard for that job there to protect their water ways? I really don't know, ive never been there. And yes a hand held or even a weapon mounted 37mm launcher would work better then those mounted to the boat. But again the mk19 makes no damn sense in the law enforcement world to me any way.
http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/06/from-warfighter-to-crimefighter/
You realize there are over 40,000 SWAT raids a year in America right? There were over 800 Humvees and 27 armored vehicles issued to police agencies in 2011 alone. They're getting armored APC's to patrol American streets and in my eyes that's overkill, unless you're talking Detroit. ;)
I have yet to hear or see where any PD or SO patrols w/ an APC or DRMO humvee.
APC have a place. Humvees are great to have for inclement weather.
I have yet to hear or see where any PD or SO patrols w/ an APC or DRMO humvee.
APC have a place. Humvees are great to have for inclement weather.
What agency could afford the gas and increased maintenance costs from using those types of vehicles on daily patrol? My agency has become down right draconian when dealing with fuel conservation as of recent.
Sheriff Joe allowed Steven "the Douche" Seagal to use an APC when they raided a "cock fight" in AZ. I think it was silly and surely didn't help our image in the media or with those that think we are ignorant hicks.
I have yet to hear or see where any PD or SO patrols w/ an APC or DRMO humvee.
APC have a place. Humvees are great to have for inclement weather.
Sheriff Joe allowed Steven "the Douche" Seagal to use an APC when they raided a "cock fight" in AZ. I think it was silly and surely didn't help our image in the media or with those that think we are ignorant hicks.
I agree. I'm not privvy to that intell or anything but I imagine that the APC probably wasn't required.
What agency could afford the gas and increased maintenance costs from using those types of vehicles on daily patrol? My agency has become down right draconian when dealing with fuel conservation as of recent.
Mine couldn't. The hummer will be a great vehicle to have for the bad weather, and rough terrain in my area, though.
Most cops now think they are some form of domestic military force. Among those some believe they are some kind of special force.
This has not been my experience. Maybe certain agencies, or a few officers, but not most.
I have yet to hear or see where any PD or SO patrols w/ an APC or DRMO humvee.
Here's a few examples of what I was talking about. I realize some of the stuff is about the Bearcat as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4edk5eqxFew
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/north-america/police-tank-greets-occupy-crowd-tampa-florida-115
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyb9kGMaRUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AujiWA81U
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41912754/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/why-do-americas-police-need-armored-tank/
http://uswgo.com/ventura-ca-police-using-armored-vehicles-in-the-streets.htm
http://www.norcalblogs.com/post_scripts/2011/06/tanks-for-police.html
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/st-petersburg-police-chief-city-needs-armored-vehicle-like-other-law/1187370
http://earthhopenetwork.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=2161
Not one of those looks like a vehicle "on patrol".
When people talk about patrol, they are talking about a specific function. Not being seen driving from point A to point B by some guy with a camera who posts in on youtube.
This has not been my experience. Maybe certain agencies, or a few officers, but not most.
Do most cops you know consider themselves "civilians"?
If it makes you feel better, fell free to substitute "a lot" for "most." But quite honestly, there are quite a few that would not consider themselves civilians, I have even met "more than a few" who have been offended by the notion.
I wish it wasn't the case, I consider myself a supporter of law enforcement.
Baton Rouge, LA 70814
I agree that LEOs do not need to be playing with this kind of hardware, especially some of the guy's I know. I cringe at thought of these guys having a pistol!
On the other hand Will clearly stated he was donating this stuff to the dept. He kept saying how the sherrif was the best thing to happen to their county in a long time, etc, etc....... Then he said he was happy to be in a position to give back to the community!
NoveskeFan
12-09-11, 13:06
According to Merriam-Webster:
Civilian:
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b: outsider 1
Most every dictionary mirrors this.
I agree that LEOs do not need to be playing with this kind of hardware, especially some of the guy's I know. I cringe at thought of these guys having a pistol!
I'm all for giving LEO anything and everything that will allow them to do their jobs in a safer and more efficient manner.
With that said though, knowing LE's track record on training and proficiency, I think the above quote holds some truth. How long do you think it will be before some guy let's loose a burst in the wrong direction while charging a 240?
I would be VERY curious to know what training will be implemented along with the issuing of these serious weapon systems.
According to Merriam-Webster:
Civilian:
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b: outsider 1
Most every dictionary mirrors this.
Ok so civil servant would be the more correct term.
NoveskeFan
12-09-11, 13:48
Seems there is some debating the "us vs. them". I have never heard a fellow LEO say "All those civilians are...". I have heard "All those gangbangers...", "All those dealers..." etc.
I have heard Soldiers and Marines speak of "Nasty civilians."
Am I a civilian? No. I consider myself a police officer. I am part of a brotherhood. But when off duty, my family comes first.
And police are a domestic force. But the officers I know feel its their duty to put away drunk drivers and get drugs off the street.
Now, do cops need Mk19's and APC's? Maybe just in Los Angles and Detriot.:D
In closing, there are douche nozzles in all professions. Some get more media attention than others.
Devils Advocate- I heard something about giving back, but did he truly pay the cost of the weapons as well as labor, etc...
A real MK19 GMG costs 13,700.00 as of 2005. A real M240 MG costs around 7000.00 IIRC. These are government prices.
I also want to know (as I stated before) where are they going to get appropriate ammunition for the MK19? There are no less lethal rounds available for them as far as I know. There are only HEDP, Practice and Dummy rounds.
I agree that LEOs do not need to be playing with this kind of hardware, especially some of the guy's I know. I cringe at thought of these guys having a pistol!
On the other hand Will clearly stated he was donating this stuff to the dept. He kept saying how the sherrif was the best thing to happen to their county in a long time, etc, etc....... Then he said he was happy to be in a position to give back to the community!
Seems there is some debating the "us vs. them". I have never heard a fellow LEO say "All those civilians are...". I have heard "All those gangbangers...", "All those dealers..." etc.
I have heard Soldiers and Marines speak of "Nasty civilians."
Am I a civilian? No. I consider myself a police officer. I am part of a brotherhood. But when off duty, my family comes first.
And police are a domestic force. But the officers I know feel its their duty to put away drunk drivers and get drugs off the street.
Now, do cops need Mk19's and APC's? Maybe just in Los Angles and Detriot.:D
In closing, there are douche nozzles in all professions. Some get more media attention than others.
OK, first things first. I don't want to turn this into a "us vs. them" cop bash. That isn't how I feel about the LE community and there is enough of that crap already.
That said, there are "more than a few" cops who feel they are much more than a "civil servant" and draw a larger distinction between them and the "civilian population" than they should.
There are of course many in the civilian population that see cops as "something less than people" (again far too many of them) so it is hardly a one sided thing.
And you are absolutely correct with the "douche nozzles" everywhere and in every profession assessment. But in the LE community even the typical percentage is "way too many" and a lot of others buy into the notion on some level and perpetuate it.
Please understand that if I seem to be coming across a little strong on this issue it is because I want ALL COPS to be good cops. I don't want there to be a "us vs. them" mentality on either side.
NoveskeFan
12-09-11, 17:46
OK, first things first. I don't want to turn this into a "us vs. them" cop bash. That isn't how I feel about the LE community and there is enough of that crap already.
That said, there are "more than a few" cops who feel they are much more than a "civil servant" and draw a larger distinction between them and the "civilian population" than they should.
There are of course many in the civilian population that see cops as "something less than people" (again far too many of them) so it is hardly a one sided thing.
And you are absolutely correct with the "douche nozzles" everywhere and in every profession assessment. But in the LE community even the typical percentage is "way too many" and a lot of others buy into the notion on some level and perpetuate it.
Please understand that if I seem to be coming across a little strong on this issue it is because I want ALL COPS to be good cops. I don't want there to be a "us vs. them" mentality on either side.
I know what youre saying. Even I get the "ass pucker" when a cruiser pulls in behind me when I'm off duty. This is because I know there are bad cops out there, and I dont want to be in the news:D
You'd think that with the media and cameras everywhere, these bad cops wouldnt exist. When I went through the academy, they stressed civil rights and to always act like you're on camera.
I know what youre saying. Even I get the "ass pucker" when a cruiser pulls in behind me when I'm off duty. This is because I know there are bad cops out there, and I dont want to be in the news:D
You'd think that with the media and cameras everywhere, these bad cops wouldnt exist. When I went through the academy, they stressed civil rights and to always act like you're on camera.
Well sadly, so long as they continue to hire "people" there will always be "bad cops."
And while I'm all for giving a guy that an agency has invested time, money and training into some benefit of the doubt and room to learn, I also know that in any organization people have connections and sometimes get away with things they shouldn't.
I don't know a single cop who has been working more than a year who can't name a dozen people who should be "let go." Obviously it is worse in some places and better in others.
The main issue at hand is the general population (those who don't have a anti LE agenda or kids who "din't do nuffin") wants those who police them to police themselves as efficiently. I also think the LE community needs to realize that they aren't "above the law" and in fact will be held to a "higher standard."
It seems LE once understood that (certain corruptions exempted) for the most part and weeded out most who didn't hold to the standard. Perhaps the problem is a perception that they no longer enjoy the support of the community like they once did. Maybe they feel they have had the ability to do their jobs effectively taken away from them by a system that is too favorable to the offender.
Certainly problems exist on both sides. And please be reminded again, my criticisms are exclusively reserved for those "bad cops", I might fail to mention them from time to time, but "good cops" are not the problem, they have my complete support and are as a result exempt from my sometimes generalized criticisms. I only wish there were many, many more of them.
But one could say that for the population in general so we are back to the original problem of "cops are people."
did anyone noticed No one shot the M240 correct?
I was taught 7-9 second Burst, Not Lay on it till you run out :rolleyes:Good way to Burn out the barrel fast .
the Rounds on the MK19 were the Same Practice rounds I used At Knox the Blue "Powder Puffs"as we called them Not a HE .and something was up with the Barrel it didn't look like a true MK19 Barrel :confused:remember he had a Kit in the passed .
I could not see a local Police Dept being able to Afford Ammo for either of these weapons to get officers up to speed on these Platforms .
Mounting the M240 on the back of the Boat was about the Dumbest crap i have seen .
a local PD close to me has a old M113 APC but about the only time you see it is during the christmas parade and they stopped doing that about 3 years ago because it broke down and they can't afford to repair it.
that show is a joke But I watch just to laugh at the stupid
Well sadly, so long as they continue to hire "people" there will always be "bad cops."
And while I'm all for giving a guy that an agency has invested time, money and training into some benefit of the doubt and room to learn, I also know that in any organization people have connections and sometimes get away with things they shouldn't.
I don't know a single cop who has been working more than a year who can't name a dozen people who should be "let go." Obviously it is worse in some places and better in others.
The main issue at hand is the general population (those who don't have a anti LE agenda or kids who "din't do nuffin") wants those who police them to police themselves as efficiently. I also think the LE community needs to realize that they aren't "above the law" and in fact will be held to a "higher standard."
It seems LE once understood that (certain corruptions exempted) for the most part and weeded out most who didn't hold to the standard. Perhaps the problem is a perception that they no longer enjoy the support of the community like they once did. Maybe they feel they have had the ability to do their jobs effectively taken away from them by a system that is too favorable to the offender.
Certainly problems exist on both sides. And please be reminded again, my criticisms are exclusively reserved for those "bad cops", I might fail to mention them from time to time, but "good cops" are not the problem, they have my complete support and are as a result exempt from my sometimes generalized criticisms. I only wish there were many, many more of them.
But one could say that for the population in general so we are back to the original problem of "cops are people."
Speaking of holding them to a higher standard, I just watch the news and a officer just got busted passed out drunk in his cruiser and others tried to cover it up.
A few months ago another group while on duty got drunk at a south beach bar and then one of them ran over a girl with his ATV on the beach. By the time it was all said and done I think 3 of them got canned. What a dumb way to piss away your career.
R.
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