View Full Version : Cloaked UFO near Mercury?
30 cal slut
12-08-11, 07:47
:confused: :eek:
:blink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X96xI1gLdQ&feature=player_embedded
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An Undocumented Worker
12-08-11, 07:51
Watch the second video in this article. It shows both mercury and mars in view, and both appear to have similar effects when the coronal mass ejection reaches them. I tend to think it is some sort of artifact from optics or electronics on the satellite.
http://gizmodo.com/5865808/has-nasas-satellite-captured-an-unidentified-object-near-mercury
This is also from the other satellite used for this project.
The folks at the NRL said it is an artifact created by enhancement of light in the image.
Just about anyone who would say something was actually a "Cloaked UFO", in an attempt to describe something they saw in real life = complete ****ing whackjob.
Sorry.
montanadave
12-08-11, 09:38
Scientists have intercepted hyperspace communications bursts from the cloaked UFO stationed near Mercury's orbit. While translating these messages has been challenging, they were able to decode one portion which states:
"Survey of third planet completed. No intelligent life forms to report."
Just about anyone who would say something was actually a "Cloaked UFO", in an attempt to describe something they saw in real life = complete ****ing whackjob.
Exactly.
Cameron
Reagans Rascals
12-08-11, 14:12
gravitational lensing.. or some type of burst as seen from a quasar or pulsar.
Is it just me or do these people not understand what "cloaking" would entail.... you can observe a blackhole by observing its background distortion.. so you wouldn't just black yourself out... you make yourself not visible by not obstructing what is behind you...
if I had a tv in front of me, and a camera behind me displaying its image on the tv... I wouldn't appear to be there... you would see right through me...
which is why you can put this type of tech on the interior floor and walls of aircraft and are then able to "see" right through the skin of the aircraft, further enhancing SA.
Mauser KAR98K
12-08-11, 14:39
Why Mercury? Its small, too close to the sun, and not much in the way of gravity.
Also to add: if a ship or an object that big was by Mercury, that thing would be affecting Mercury's orbit big time.
Smokin' too much weed, and readin' too many sci-fi paperbacks. Some folks just seem to be desperate that we're not alone in the universe.
FYI, there is no way we're alone in the universe. To think like that you might as well believe the earth is the center of the universe and that the planet is flat!
FYI, there is no way we're alone in the universe. To think like that you might as well believe the earth is the center of the universe and that the planet is flat!
Please tell me about all the other persons in the universe (of course excluding those on the earth, I know about those)? Also where exactly is the center of the universe? Like I said some are DESPERATE!!!
The folks at the NRL said it is an artifact created by enhancement of light in the image.
Just about anyone who would say something was actually a "Cloaked UFO", in an attempt to describe something they saw in real life = complete ****ing whackjob.
Sorry.
Either you are not factoring in the pyramids and "Face of Mars" which are ABSOLUTE AND DEFINITIVE PROOF of life on those planets...or...you are actually part of the massive government conspiracy to cover up that evidence.
Is it just me or do these people not understand what "cloaking" would entail....
I don't think these people understand a damn thing.
For me personally I believe IF a species is advanced enough to engage in interstellar travel, to say nothing of using this kind of stealth technology, we'd certainly NEVER know about it.
There's a radio program on our local Foxnews radio affiliate prior to 5am est that I discovered on the way to work a couple months ago that talk about UFOs and aliens, there are some REAL whackjobs on there.
One caller was talking about some kind of underground lair they have conus, and kidnap women for relations and about special forces raiding it and being completely demolished by them......That story really stuck out in my mind...............
Suwannee Tim
12-08-11, 17:34
Yessiree Bob. That's what it is. A cloaked UFO. That's all it could be. Definitely. No question.
there are millions of stars and billions of planets in the universe. Our minds cannot even comprehend the size of the universe! That is fact......to think that out of all of those millions of starts/galaxies that we "humans" or planet earth are IT, the only living cognizant lifeform is the height of narcissism. IMO......
we might as well go back to counting how many angels will fit on the head of a pin!:dirol:
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-11, 18:22
There are around 50,000,000,000 planets in the Milky Way galaxy. About 500,000,000 are in the habitable zone of their star.
There is an estimated 200,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe. That's not counting one of the more recent computed algorithms/simulations out of Germany that puts a conservative estimate of 500,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe.
So 200,000,000,000 observable galaxies x 500,000,000 habitable planets = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that's ten sextillion) estimated planets in our universe in the habitable zone of their stars.
That's a lot of damn weather balloons! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/spacecraft.gif
there are millions of stars and billions of planets in the universe. Our minds cannot even comprehend the size of the universe! That is fact......to think that out of all of those millions of starts/galaxies that we "humans" or planet earth are IT, the only living cognizant lifeform is the height of narcissism. IMO......
we might as well go back to counting how many angels will fit on the head of a pin!:dirol:
While that is true, it still doesn't mean we've been visited let alone that we have seen a cloaked alien space craft.
There really are aliens out there!!
Didnt anyone see War of the Worlds?
Duh
Watch the second video in this article. It shows both mercury and mars in view, and both appear to have similar effects when the coronal mass ejection reaches them. I tend to think it is some sort of artifact from optics or electronics on the satellite.
http://gizmodo.com/5865808/has-nasas-satellite-captured-an-unidentified-object-near-mercury
This is also from the other satellite used for this project.
so there's TWO UFO'S????
quick, go dig up all those buried SKS's!!!
:haha:
Reagans Rascals
12-08-11, 20:15
mathematically speaking... it is not possible we are alone.
Does this hold any significance as to whether or not my rent will get paid... no
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-11, 20:35
mathematically speaking... it is not possible we are alone.
You mean it is possible? :cool:
Concerning the figures, that does not even take into consideration the possibilities of parallel universes, enter String theory. . .
VooDoo6Actual
12-08-11, 20:56
Seems a bit of a stretch & quantum jump to say the least to explain a artifact/anamoly/aberration as a "Cloaked UFO"...
Also seems narrow minded & flawed in my mind to think or suggest we are alone, however...
there are millions of stars and billions of planets in the universe. Our minds cannot even comprehend the size of the universe! That is fact......to think that out of all of those millions of starts/galaxies that we "humans" or planet earth are IT, the only living cognizant lifeform is the height of narcissism. IMO......
we might as well go back to counting how many angels will fit on the head of a pin!:dirol:
Yeah, nobody responded to your first post.
While that is true, it still doesn't mean we've been visited let alone that we have seen a cloaked alien space craft.
I agree 100% with you. I was addressing those who think we are the only intelligent life in the universe.
From what little I know of astronomy, astrophysics, or xeno biology I would surmise that planet earth and the milky way galaxy is kind of like some fly speck of a town in bummfuk nowhere! Probably not woth the "gas" or time to visit. On the other hand we should be careful what we wish for. I don't think a visit from an intelligent alien species would work out well for humans. Look at the amount of damage we have done to this planet, it's inhabitants, and the resources. I'm not a tree hugger, but it doesn't take one to see that we are effen this place all up!
I could see some alien race coming to the planet looking at the variety of flora and fauna and deciding that humans are a pestilance that needs to be eradicated.
Certain scientists have even floated the idea that the human race is like a virus to habital ecology.
Not my personal opinion, but there is some validity to it.
if one ever got to talk to and/or know some of the Edwards pilots from the early 50s they had some good stories that makes you wonder what else is or could be out their though ?
There are around 50,000,000,000 planets in the Milky Way galaxy. About 500,000,000 are in the habitable zone of their star.
There is an estimated 200,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe. That's not counting one of the more recent computed algorithms/simulations out of Germany that puts a conservative estimate of 500,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe.
So 200,000,000,000 observable galaxies x 500,000,000 habitable planets = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that's ten sextillion) estimated planets in our universe in the habitable zone of their stars.
And that is only based on the inhabitable zone for what we consider normal life. Don't forget life evolves based on the conditions it is in, not the other way around. It is just as likely that life would evolve on a gas giant as it would an earth like planet.
And that is only based on the inhabitable zone for what we consider normal life. Don't forget life evolves based on the conditions it is in, not the other way around. It is just as likely that life would evolve on a gas giant as it would an earth like planet.
and to consider we have areas on this earth like at volcanic ocean vents where scientists used to say would not tolerate life and yet when they finally got their they found life was abundant
Yeah the organisms around the vents that use chemosynthesis are pretty interesting.
As far as alien life being probable I agree that it is, but intelligent alien life coming all this way and keeping it a secret would certainly require an intelligence and psychology quite different from ours. Especially if they are really responsible for the odd crop circles, cattle mutilations and anal probing that gets blamed on them.
Just a Jarhead
12-09-11, 14:20
I don't know if UFO's exist, my feeling is that they probably do given the vastness of the universe & all the mysteries of the ancients and even Columbus in his journal describes seeing them going in and out of the sea on his voyage & the Prophet Ezechiel describes wheels in the sky that sounds very similar to UFO's in the bible. I do know that quite a few Astronauts believe in them unequivocally and have seen them. Few people know that Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin & Michael Collins observed a UFO on Apollo 11 mission.
A list of some of the Astronauts having reported seeing UFO's is not a short one; Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Michael Collins, Scott Carpenter & Gordon Cooper who saw them several times. Hard not to believe these guys.
Here's some video of them and their UFO experiences.
Buzz Aldrin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI
Gordon Cooper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc
Edgar Mitchell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO66afmxWKA&feature=fvst
I have the priviledge of being friends with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14, 6th man to walk on the moon. We are neighbors here in West Palm. He was the pilot of the lunar Module and was accompanied by mission Commander Alan Shepard, 5th man to walk on the moon. We discuss UFO's all the time. Very interesting man. I'm in awe every time I chat with him and around him, which is just about every day unless he's out of town giving a speech or something. These guys were my version of royalty having grown up watching all these flights.
Smokin' too much weed, and readin' too many sci-fi paperbacks. Some folks just seem to be desperate that we're not alone in the universe.
Harsh but hollow words. :rolleyes:
The mathematical odds that we are the only solid body in the universe to contain life of any sort are so minute they are nearly infinitesimally small. To think it's all about us in this unfathomably vast universe gives new meaning to the term short sighted.
Harsh but hollow words. :rolleyes:
The mathematical odds that we are the only solid body in the universe to contain life of any sort are so minute they are nearly infinitesimally small. To think it's all about us in this unfathomably vast universe gives new meaning to the term short sighted.
Oh I could have been a lot more harsh than I was. I could have pointed out the non sequitur of the video. You know, going from observing a strange light near Mercury, and concluding it's a cloaked spaceship, and identify the speaker as a moron. But I didn't do that.
I could also point out that all the talk about probabilities, and alien life is nothing but idle speculation, but I didn't do that either. I hold to another authority rather than scientists. I also learn that all science operates under the handicap of at least 2 logical fallacies, and many dubious assumptions. So I always am suspicious of they're pronouncements.
Also, I would also point out that a corrollary to alien life existing is the notion of spontaneous generation of life. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to the probability of that occurring.
Yeah, Gravity sure is stupid! :D
If people "believe" that there is life out there in the universe, is that any different that your "belief" system? Either way, no matter who is right, there are always logical fallacies.
Doc Safari
12-09-11, 16:40
I figure if there really is a "superior" alien species out there, then they are undoubtedly smart enough to stay the Hell away from humanity.
Yeah, Gravity sure is stupid! :D
If people "believe" that there is life out there in the universe, is that any different that your "belief" system? Either way, no matter who is right, there are always logical fallacies.
What are you babbling about, I never said anything about the reality of gravity.
And yes my epistemology is different than that of the typical atheistic scientist. My presuppositions are definitely alien to materialism, but then everyone has their biases.....don't they. Whatever your presupposition, and this I say with love in heart for you, can you build a coherent true worldview from it?
What are you babbling about, I never said anything about the reality of gravity.
And yes my epistemology is different than that of the type atheistic scientist. My presuppositions are definitely alien to materialism, but then everyone has their biases.....don't they. Whatever your presupposition, and this I say with love in heart for you, can you build a coherent true worldview from it?
Not to stray too far off topic, and you can PM if you want to discuss further, but your post sounded as if you distrust science because it's science and science is evil. May have read a bit too much into that, if so, I apologize.
As far as forming a true worldview, hmmm... well, I see what I see, I touch what I touch and I extrapolate where I can based on scientific consensus. Just like throwing a baseball, you have to make calculations, assumptions about the environment, and until you get better at it, you just have to down right guess how hard to throw it to meet your objective.
Thank you for your post. I do not think science as such is evil. Looked at with suspicious eyes, yes. I think science is good for making things....bridges, AR's, cars etc. but finding some sort of ultimate truth, I don't think so.
As far as our senses go, much could be said about the validity of empiricism, but just for thought.....can you sense your mind, or mathematics, or the laws of logic?
Also, I would also point out that a corrollary to alien life existing is the notion of spontaneous generation of life. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to the probability of that occurring.
If cosmic seeding proves valid that would at least address the transmission of life throughout the universe (assuming it exists).
As for where life first began (regardless of if it was introduced from someplace else) or how that happened....we don't know. We have identified basic building blocks of life but we are still missing a very key part of the equation that has prevented us from duplicating the event or "creating" life.
This question is one of the BIG TWO (the other being where did the universe come from in the first place) that we do not currently have answers for. Science is mans attempt to discover these answers.
Suwannee Tim
12-09-11, 19:28
.....I also learn that all science operates under the handicap of at least 2 logical fallacies, and many dubious assumptions.....
Elaborate please.
I also learn that all science operates under the handicap of at least 2 logical fallacies, and many dubious assumptions.
Ironically, this statement is itself a fallacy and an extremely dubious assumption.
:D
You can hardly be familiar with all science and if indeed something was subject to a fallacy it wouldn't correctly be science.
VooDoo6Actual
12-09-11, 20:37
I hold to another authority rather than scientists. I also learn that all science operates under the handicap of at least 2 logical fallacies, and many dubious assumptions. So I always am suspicious of they're pronouncements.
Also, I would also point out that a corrollary to alien life existing is the notion of spontaneous generation of life. Maybe someone can enlighten us as to the probability of that occurring.
Wow amazing.
And we are going to supposedly going to be operating under One World Governace...
good luck w/ that...
montanadave
12-09-11, 20:40
Pardon the threadjack, but seeing as how we were talking about space images and whatnot, here's a photograph my mom emailed me (yeah, she's 82 but still emails) showing the area around Williston, North Dakota illuminated by drilling rigs working the Bakken Shale play. Back in the days of my misspent youth, I remember standing on the tailgate of my truck at the Dagmar Bar trying to figure out which of the ten or twelve derricks lighting up the area was the rig I was supposed to go to work on. And we thought things were hoppin' and poppin' back then. :smile:
The silver irregular area just right of Glasgow, MT, is the Fort Peck Reservoir on the Missouri River. And if I look real hard, I can just make out my porch light. :laugh:
Hard to say how much oil will ultimately be recovered from the Bakken, but there is some serious money being spent (and made) in the Wiliston Basin these days. I might joke about the intelligence of life on Earth but there's no doubt we are an industrious lot.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6017/outerspacepicture.jpg
Belmont31R
12-09-11, 20:44
The best quote Ive heard on alien life is, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
I believe there is life on other planets. May not be intelligent life but if life could evolve to allow me to type this out on this planet the odds are its evolved on others. As humans we have zero 'scale' or 'proportion' to just how vast things are.
Some of the light we see in the sky at night was emitted before some of us were born.
A friend working as a broadcaster in a radio station in the late 70's was approached by the alleged photographer from the Roswell incident. He gave him 2 glossy b/w prints of the site that was not submitted or whatever the term. A little freaky, burnt body in the wreckage, 2 others in the other photo. Hadn't seen since the 70's.. Looking at the pics with a magnified glass with my dad, we saw a hex nut in the wreckage frame.... Ok game over.. Still though, pretty cool photos. Buddy is going to dig them out over holidays If he can find them and scan them.. Should be interesting to see them again...
Personally, I'm not that interested in this subject, just thought I'd throw this out...;)
Elaborate please.
Sure, be happy to. The first is induction, the conclusion never can follow from the beginning premises. the second is asserting the consequent. P implies Q, Q therefore P. The global climate change scam is a good example of the later. The fallacious assumption would be materialism, you would have to be omniscient to assert such a thing.
The best quote Ive heard on alien life is, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
I believe there is life on other planets. May not be intelligent life but if life could evolve to allow me to type this out on this planet the odds are its evolved on others. As humans we have zero 'scale' or 'proportion' to just how vast things are.
Some of the light we see in the sky at night was emitted before some of us were born.
When I look up I see the hand of Almighty God, and His goodness and omnipotence.....we start from two completely different assumptions.
Ironically, this statement is itself a fallacy and an extremely dubious assumption.
:D
You can hardly be familiar with all science and if indeed something was subject to a fallacy it wouldn't correctly be science.
In answering SuwanneeTim I have given you your answer. Just as a side note the atheistic philosopher Betrand Russell was honest enough to agree that all science operates upon the logical fallacy of asserting the consequent. I also am not trying to destroy science, but pointing out that science can never reveal the true nature of things ( Albert Einstein ) nor reveal the true nature of the past.
Wow amazing.
And we are going to supposedly going to be operating under One World Governace...
good luck w/ that...
I propose no merging of nations. Please explain your statement.
If cosmic seeding proves valid that would at least address the transmission of life throughout the universe (assuming it exists).
As for where life first began (regardless of if it was introduced from someplace else) or how that happened....we don't know. We have identified basic building blocks of life but we are still missing a very key part of the equation that has prevented us from duplicating the event or "creating" life.
This question is one of the BIG TWO (the other being where did the universe come from in the first place) that we do not currently have answers for. Science is mans attempt to discover these answers.
Since nobody has come along yet to give us some info on the probability that life spontaneously generated allow me. I have read (non Christian) that it on the order of 1 chance 10 to the 240th power. Anything above about 1 chance in 10 to the 50th power is generally considered impossible in science. Of course this was one non Christians view, but I believe others would hold a similar view.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 03:37
Since nobody has come along yet to give us some info on the probability that life spontaneously generated allow me. I have read (non Christian) that it on the order of 1 chance 10 to the 240th power. Anything above about 1 chance in 10 to the 50th power is generally considered impossible in science. Of course this was one non Christians view, but I believe others would hold a similar view.
disprove it then?....
The world was not made 5000 years ago, thats a fact .
Human Beings evolved from lower organism's, thats a fact. Regardless of stubbornness. Otherwise explain why we have a gallbladder, appendix and remnants of a tail. Sure they provide some lower-level function, but in many aspects they are considered vestigial organs.
That being said, why do those 2 things have to contradict any religious ideology.... the bible says god created the world in 6 days... that's 6 days on an eternal time scale, so who can say how long that took. The same for "man was made in his image", perhaps we were and it just took time beyond our cognitive perception. And perhaps he used evolution as his manufacturing tool.
People say the human eye requires so many parts to all have come along at the precise time and place that it couldn't have been an accident... Who says the "almighty plan" didn't use evolution to do it,
that the supreme being didn't create an overall engineering schematic to get us to where we were using our world and not divine intervention.
Man very well may have been made in his image, but does that state there weren't others perhaps not made in his image.... there are pigs, cacti, and slugs that supposedly weren't but they are still here.
How can one be so blinded by lack of knowledge to think that they know what can and can't be.
If life itself has told us anything, the mere fact that I am sitting here typing this, as a living being, simply proves factually that anything is possible.
And mathematics proves this. Its called game theory.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 03:50
this is the problem with religion as a whole.
It gives individuals a crutch with which to support the very foundations of their lives.
If something comes along that questions or in any way displaces the plight of that crutch, the foundation will begin to crumble. Therefore anything seen as a threat, is disregarded in its entirety.
Every human being on this planet feels empty inside, and questions why we are here, and what we are supposed to be doing, and what will happen to us both in life and in death, and religion offers certain people a way to fill that void. So as they lay there, at night, in the cold, the vastness of the universe won't seem so frightening.
And that is the problem with religion or any type of organization like it, they prey on those who are vulnerable, offering comfort from the rough seas of life. Presenting those who are going through trying times, with the promises of happiness and caring and love.
When was the last time you saw a church choosing to actively help people, not just spread the gospel, but actively help those in need, instead of building bigger churches.
Religion has killed more people in the world, than any disease, famine, or natural disaster in the history of man kind.
We wouldn't be losing men everyday in trashganistan if this was not true.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 04:00
the entire christian church is based around symbolism, metaphors, and anecdotes by which to live your life.
and this is the problem... its all man made. The bible was written by man, who is subject to human emotion.
The entire religion as a whole is impossible to decipher because of the things included and those chosen to be excluded by the church.
The old testament was translated from the Torah, and in doing such there were things lost in translation. Such as "Thou shall not kill." In reality the original text stated "thou shall not murder", however there is no direct translation of murder from the hebrew text, so the word kill was supplanted.
kill and murder are not synonymous
The reason the resurrection of Christ is celebrated in april, and the reason for the inclusion of the egg, and rabbit, is due to the Christian attempt to tame the pagans and make the transition to Christianity easier, so therefore they began celebrating it at the same time as the pagan fertility festival... for which the egg and the rabbit represented being fertile.
Everything is based on lies or symbolism because it comes from man.
So here's an idea...
Lets cut out the middle man, get rid of all the bullshit.. and just be a good person and do whats right.
the golden rule you learn in kindergarten should suffice nicely
disprove it then?....
The world was not made 5000 years ago, thats a fact .
Human Beings evolved from lower organism's, thats a fact.
How can one be so blinded by lack of knowledge to think that they know what can and can't be.
yet you are so blinded yourself to think those things are fact when we know that nobody really knows yet you are willing to suck them down like the lemming running off the cliff ?
funny how that is :)
I am not saying it can or cant be I am saying we really dont know and that is the only fact we have !!!!!
actually no its not fact its pure speculation and nothing has ever proven otherwise ?
the world ? funny thing we really do not know how old it is ? again science is often wrong and carbon dating is not very accurate they are finding
especially after a few things were said to be so old and turned out not ;) YIKES again science is really good at saying they are right until they are wrong
the mt st helens ash thing was a big one when they brought in some stuff buried by mt st helens forgot how many million years old the scientist said it was :)
shroud was another big mess up the list goes on
why cause they asked some other questions and they kinda guess to make it fit their puzzle !!!!!
many other people in science have easily debunked carbon dating
even science itself says radioactive decay is not a constant ? yet they try to use it :) heheheh
also the same reason they are thinking dinosaurs were maybe not as long ago as they thought ? the recent findings of extinct animals and some recent finds of animals that can not be dated as old because of certain decay etc..
heck look at global warming what a big scam that turned out to be :)
I have to laugh at the scientist that try to prove these things as most all of them are like gov people out to prove things etc... get a name etc..
bottom line we dont really know how old the earth is
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 04:19
bottom line we dont really know how old the earth is
its called math... once again
we know how old the universe is
cosmic background radiation, imaging spectral analysis and so on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
that being said, the age of the earth is of little significance, a mere spec of sand on the beach compared to the entirety of the universe
so yes, it is more than safe to say, the world as it relates to earth, was not made 5000 years ago.
Also, if so... where did oil and diamonds come from?
its called math... once again
we know how old the universe is
cosmic background radiation, imaging spectral analysis and so on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
that being said, the age of the earth is of little significance, a mere spec of sand on the beach compared to the entirety of the universe
so yes, it is more than safe to say, the world as it relates to earth, was not made 5000 years ago.
Also, if so... where did oil and diamonds come from?
in Theory yes they think they know or have proven with what they think and thats why its a theory really
proven NO
dis-proven by others and argued by others ? so again nobody knows !!!!
and even some parts of the cobe or whatever it was called team had said their are some big variances and they are finding things that dont really fit wobbles and lumpy things or something :)
OH but the other parts are often left out
its kinda like scientist get a big bag of pieces and put together things leaving others out and say SEE we know this but dont mind those other things they did not fit our theory but this other thing works !!!
again I bet you believe in global warming like al gore ;) cause after all the same top scientist said it was so !!! especially after the emails where they cooked it up were let out of the bag !!!!!
OH NO but yeah you go on believe them when it fits but not when it does not or run off the cliff and follow blindly :)
so are you a global warming guy also ?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 04:30
dear god... this is just Ron Paul drunk college hippie circle talk
by that logic nothing is real or proven, when I shit my pants, it might smell, it might stain my pants, and it might get on my legs and back, but it can't be proven
the next words out of your mouth are going to be "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel"... I just know it... I can feel inside jobber talk coming
the entire christian church is based around symbolism, metaphors, and anecdotes by which to live your life.
since you obviously pick on Christians or those who believe God ? and you obviously believe scientists ? yikes thats scary with how often they are proven wrong !
did you read this on the internet somewhere ? I have friends Mormons Jews Christians etc... a lot of religions and I think everyone will tell you its based on faith and relationship with God not on a symbol or metaphor
while symbols are used and metaphors they are not the basis of Christianity for any of the ones I know ? actually the opposite that you dont worship those things ?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 04:43
I believe in global warming because it ****ing snowed last year in Mobile, Alabama.
Lets start a small internal combustion engine inside your living room and leave it running inside your house for a week with the windows and doors shut, then try and tell me it didn't have any affect on your inside climate, if it didn't kill you.
Now lets take that exact same experiment and blow it up to a global scale... doesn't seem too far fetched that maybe something is going on.
But then again, some people need a to see a fire before they smell smoke
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 04:50
since you obviously pick on Christians or those who believe God ? and you obviously believe scientists ? yikes thats scary with how often they are proven wrong !
did you read this on the internet somewhere ? I have friends Mormons Jews Christians etc... a lot of religions and I think everyone will tell you its based on faith and relationship with God not on a symbol or metaphor
while symbols are used and metaphors they are not the basis of Christianity for any of the ones I know ? actually the opposite that you dont worship those things ?
I never said you pray to these symbols, I said the church is centered around them. Without them there would be nothing to base a church around. The sign of the holy trinity.. oh sorry not a symbol, so you don't use the cross in your church? ok I guess thats not symbolism then... oh and what about transubstantiation... oh yeah thats not symbolism... hmm ok I guess you win
Lets talk about indulgences... oh wait... that's a touchy subject.. or maybe the crusades... oh sorry that's touchy once again... what about the inquisition... oh sorry once again...
dear god... this is just Ron Paul drunk college hippie circle talk
by that logic nothing is real or proven, when I shit my pants, it might smell, it might stain my pants, and it might get on my legs and back, but it can't be proven
the next words out of your mouth are going to be "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel"... I just know it... I can feel inside jobber talk coming
heheheh typical idiot response dont agree bash :) seriously
you are acting like a 5 year old now :)
if I cant have it all I dont want any run away crying !!!!!
we can prove many many things and many things we can not prove ?
I guess for you scientist can prove anything and everything in the world with %100 certainty ?
again nobody has proof man came from some tadpole or whatever you think ? nobody does its a theory !
yeah crap your pants ? sounds like you know form experience :) but yeah its going to stink ?
chop my head off I die ?
again you cant prove everything ! and sadly the ones you want to fit are not proven but you are trying to say they are ? and well they are not !!!!
I believe in global warming because it ****ing snowed last year in Mobile, Alabama.
Lets start a small internal combustion engine inside your living room and leave it running inside your house for a week with the windows and doors shut, then try and tell me it didn't have any affect on your inside climate, if it didn't kill you.
Now lets take that exact same experiment and blow it up to a global scale... doesn't seem too far fetched that maybe something is going on.
But then again, some people need a to see a fire before they smell smoke
so you are a global warming believer :) heeheheh AHHHH OK that explains a lot
not sure how old you are ? but I remember the big we are heading into another ice age scare the scientist tried on us in the 70s
OH DAMN that did not work I KNOW lets try global warming !
OH DAMN we got caught I know lets call it climate change then it can fit whatever we want and get
and yeah warming is why we are having cold spells to :) heheheheh
I guess then the theory of ice ages to you is a impossibility
I never said you pray to these symbols, I said the church is centered around them. Without them there would be nothing to base a church around. The sign of the holy trinity.. oh sorry not a symbol, so you don't use the cross in your church? ok I guess thats not symbolism then... oh and what about transubstantiation... oh yeah thats not symbolism... hmm ok I guess you win
Lets talk about indulgences... oh wait... that's a touchy subject.. or maybe the crusades... oh sorry that's touchy once again... what about the inquisition... oh sorry once again...
you said
the entire christian church is based around symbolism
again churches are not based around symbolism ?
and again yes symbols in religion can be used but they are not what the churches center around ?
most all Christians I know base things around faith cause that is something that is not man made and can not be taken away ?
and I dont have a church ? sorry their I know ya wanted to poke that at me ??
curious if you have kids ?
can you prove your love for them ? or do you just know it in your heart ? or do you need a scientist to prove that love with math or a equation ?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 05:07
the issue is, trying to argue any semblance of logic with those like you results in one big circle.. aka circle talk
you are uber religious, believe the world is less than 5000 years old, believe the heavens are ours and ours alone, regardless of what science or anyone else tries to say
and then, just to "prove" them wrong, you attack a straw man and present an argument that cannot be defended and thus, you supplant the outcome from point b, into argument a, and therefore based on some flawed view you have vicariously won.
case in point:
statement A: the world is x number of years old
rebuttal to A: no one knows how old the world is
rebuttal to rebuttal a: yes they do its right here ______
statement B: nothing is ever certain, it can't ever be proven
rebuttal to B: that makes no sense
transitioning point B into rebuttal A: all they have are educated guess, they'll never really know for sure because it can't be proven
rebuttal to AB corollary: this is a god damn circle talk
inside jobber talk--- they used thermite to down the buildings, we tested thermite and it wont work, well they used super thermite
its just a circle of illogical defense, if anyone is running away crying its you because instead of making valid counter points all you have done is continue the circle
please dispute anything I have written, logically and I will gladly welcome it
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 05:13
and again yes symbols in religion can be used but they are not what the churches center around ?
please explain rituals such as maundy thursday, black friday, palm sunday, easter in general, Lent, and communion, if rituals and symbolism are not the majority of church functioning
e.t.a .--- also please include sharing of the peace, baptism, holy water, and once again... the cross
Lets talk about indulgences... oh wait... that's a touchy subject.. or maybe the crusades... oh sorry that's touchy once again... what about the inquisition... oh sorry once again...
dont get you ? again its like talking to a child ???
curious if you are 20 something ? kinda act like that age of know more than anyone ? dont worry you will grow up realize some things in life you just cant explain ?
but why are indulgences touchy ?
not sure what a indulgence is to you ? me I dont break the law ? dont do drugs cause dont believe in putting that crap in my body to get HIGH ! I can do it by living the life I have diving jumping off cliffs etc..
I dont really drink but like some rum drinks ? being a island boy and lived in the Caribbean :) kinda hard not to like rum
love espresso :)
unless you mean things we do we are not supposed to biblical like a SIN
OH NO yes I think every Christian sins ? its the idea of living a good life and trying not to !
those that go sin and say well its OK I will be forgiven I think are fake Christians myself ? but thats me
the crusades ? man I wished they won by finishing them all off :) then we might not have the issues we have today with muslim terrorists and I think many feel like that
inquisition
I think thats a Catholic thing :) yeah pretty messed up when man decides he holds the power of God and why I dont believe anyone should think that way ? but they answered for it I am sure
anytime some nut case says GOD made me do this and its a bad thing ? sorry God did not tell him to his nut case mind did ? and yes people are nuts thats the great thing about free will :)
or you talking the Romans or the Spanish or the Portugese ? spelling on that ? inquisition ?
could talk about the muslim thing thats a bit screwy and been going on for 1500 years ! and yet they are still doing stupid crap that most figured out was wrong ;)
if I were you I would worry more about them then the Christians :)
please explain rituals such as maundy thursday, black friday, palm sunday, easter in general, Lent, and communion, if rituals and symbolism are not the majority of church functioning
e.t.a .--- also please include sharing of the peace, baptism, holy water, and once again... the cross
uhhhh google rituals maybe ? do your own homework on that one big boy :)
again I am saying Faith is the base and I said their are symbols and their are some rituals but not centered on them
you keep trying to say its centered around symbols and rituals ? and I am saying its based and centered on FAITH
maybe you really want/need it to be symbols !!! so you can have some little satisfaction ? not sure why ?
believe what you want ?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 05:33
dont get you ? again its like talking to a child ???
curious if you are 20 something ? kinda act like that age of know more than anyone ? dont worry you will grow up realize some things in life you just cant explain ?
but why are indulgences touchy ?
not sure what a indulgence is to you ? me I dont break the law ? dont do drugs cause dont believe in putting that crap in my body to get HIGH ! I can do it by living the life I have diving jumping off cliffs etc..
I dont really drink but like some rum drinks ? being a island boy and lived in the Caribbean :) kinda hard not to like rum
love espresso :)
unless you mean things we do we are not supposed to biblical like a SIN
OH NO yes I think every Christian sins ? its the idea of living a good life and trying not to !
those that go sin and say well its OK I will be forgiven I think are fake Christians myself ? but thats me
the crusades ? man I wished they won by finishing them all off :) then we might not have the issues we have today with muslim terrorists and I think many feel like that
inquisition
I think thats a Catholic thing :) yeah pretty messed up when man decides he holds the power of God and why I dont believe anyone should think that way ? but they answered for it I am sure
anytime some nut case says GOD made me do this and its a bad thing ? sorry God did not tell him to his nut case mind did ? and yes people are nuts thats the great thing about free will :)
or you talking the Romans or the Spanish or the Portugese ? spelling on that ? inquisition ?
could talk about the muslim thing thats a bit screwy and been going on for 1500 years ! and yet they are still doing stupid crap that most figured out was wrong ;)
if I were you I would worry more about them then the Christians :)
When you have a discussion, it helps to not use a question mark in every single sentence. Also, it helps to somewhat speak in complete thoughts and to not use emoticons as punctuation.
It is hard to follow you because its very random and has a lot of other things thrown in. It is almost like I am trying to speak with someone that just learned English, and its not very good at it.
And also, what are you even talking about. With every reply you post, you take this conversation all over the place, instead of replying to the issue at hand.
And that issue is, it is not within the human capacity to assert the belief that we have the aptitude to even begin to say that it is not possible there are other beings in the universe.
Think of the universe like the ocean, there are still plenty of organism's at the bottom of the Marianas trench that we have yet to discover, so how can we say they do not exist if we haven't found them yet.
The universe is just one big ocean, that we just haven't explored deep enough yet.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 05:37
I think I really need to break this down further for you.
My original statement was, the entire christian church is based around symbolism.
Do you see the key word there?
The Christian religion is based around faith. The church itself is based around symbolism.
Church and Religion are not synonymous. A Church is an organization of people with similar interests such as a club. A Religion is a system of beliefs.
the issue is, trying to argue any semblance of logic with those like you results in one big circle.. aka circle talk
you are uber religious, believe the world is less than 5000 years old, believe the heavens are ours and ours alone, regardless of what science or anyone else tries to say
and then, just to "prove" them wrong, you attack a straw man and present an argument that cannot be defended and thus, you supplant the outcome from point b, into argument a, and therefore based on some flawed view you have vicariously won.
its just a circle of illogical defense, if anyone is running away crying its you because instead of making valid counter points all you have done is continue the circle
please dispute anything I have written, logically and I will gladly welcome it
heheheheh
again I think you must be 20 something :)
and yet you have to ask me things a couple times even though I keep saying them :)
OK dispute anything I have said WOW see it works the same way you are the one talking in circles or not listening ?
SHOW ME the %100 proof that every scientist believes we came form tad poles or whatever you think ?
show me for sure every scientist thinks the earth X years old and the universe !
you cant and wont ! find them cause not all agree
again theory and reality are not the same !
THEORY AND PROOF are not the same
and again dont be a child yes crap your pants ? sounds like you do this a lot ? yes it will stink ? yes cut off my head I die
blah blah
or you going to act like a school child again :)
OK I never said the earth was 5000 years old ?
OH I get it you thought I must have thought that ?
I said we dont know how old the earth is ? it could be 5000 could be 500000000000000000 we dont really know I am guessing its pretty darn old though :) sorry but I think older than 5000 years :)
sorry dont believe the heavens are all ours at all !
I am actually one of those that think there is other life out their :) sorry again ?
so again since you wont answer this
how old are you ?
do you have kids ?
do you need science to prove love for your kids ?
do you remember or ever heard of the big cold scare of the 70s when scientists told us we were headed into a ice age and they knew this for fact !!!! OOOPPPSSS another big science mistake
and do you really think EVERYTHING can be scientifically proven by a equation or some theory a scientist comes up with ?
and I have nothing against scientists ;) I have a few friends that are its just sadly a few try to play God and try to make a theory fact when its not ! and then sadly simple minded people follow them blindly ?
a lot of science is good and again many things can be proven and many things can not !!!!
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 06:06
heheheheh
again I think you must be 20 something :)
and yet you have to ask me things a couple times even though I keep saying them :)
OK dispute anything I have said WOW see it works the same way you are the one talking in circles or not listening ?
SHOW ME the %100 proof that every scientist believes we came form tad poles or whatever you think ?
show me for sure every scientist thinks the earth X years old and the universe !
you cant and wont ! find them cause not all agree
again theory and reality are not the same !
THEORY AND PROOF are not the same
or you going to act like a school child again :)
OK I never said the earth was 5000 years old ?
OH I get it you thought I must have thought that ?
I said we dont know how old the earth is ? it could be 5000 could be 500000000000000000 we dont really know I am guessing its pretty darn old though :) sorry but I think older than 5000 years :)
sorry dont believe the heavens are all ours at all !
I am actually one of those that think there is other life out their :) sorry again ?
so again since you wont answer this
how old are you ?
do you have kids ?
do you need science to prove love for your kids ?
do you remember or ever heard of the big cold scare of the 70s when scientists told us we were headed into a ice age and they knew this for fact !!!! OOOPPPSSS another big science mistake
and do you really think EVERYTHING can be scientifically proven by a equation or some theory a scientist comes up with ?
and I have nothing against scientists ;) I have a few friends that are its just sadly a few try to play God and try to make a theory fact when its not ! and then sadly simple minded people follow them blindly ?
a lot of science is good and again many things can be proven and many things can not !!!!
Honestly, what the hell are you even talking about. Why is this conversation continuing. What is the overall point you are trying to make.
I have listed mine numerous times, it is illogical to say we are alone. If you agree with that, why are you continuing to speak, as to that was the entire basis of this conversation.
Please just stop. You are beginning to ramble on and on about random topics, all running together within the same sentence and statements.
and again dont be a child yes crap your pants ? sounds like you do this a lot ? yes it will stink ? yes cut off my head I die
blah blah
you cannot even insult me correctly. you've mentioned the same thing 3 times now, and still have yet to even realize what I was even referring to.
Please just stop with the incoherent jibber jabber
the entire christian church is based around symbolism, metaphors, and anecdotes by which to live your life.
Everything is based on lies or symbolism because it comes from man.
I think I really need to break this down further for you.
My original statement was, the entire christian church is based around symbolism.
Do you see the key word there?
The Christian religion is based around faith. The church itself is based around symbolism.
Church and Religion are not synonymous. A Church is an organization of people with similar interests such as a club. A Religion is a system of beliefs.
in your wacky world a church is based on what it is built out of ? so cold be cement bricks or wood ?
many just see it as a group or assembly
and nothing to do with any earthly thing ?
so sorry a church is not based around the symbols ?
while Christians have symbols of faith they are not the faith itself and the church is not based around symbols ?
I am glad you agree with me though that Christianity is based on Faith and since the church is a place to gather for that faith even if thats a empty field with nothing its done to worship God and no symbol has to be present etc.. ?
and as you can see many dont think of the church as a building at all so you cant say the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CHURCH is based around symbols now can you ?
but you will you will twist it your way :) heheheeh
silly and sad really
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 06:45
in your wacky world a church is based on what it is built out of ? so cold be cement bricks or wood ?
many just see it as a group or assembly
and nothing to do with any earthly thing ?
so sorry a church is not based around the symbols ?
while Christians have symbols of faith they are not the faith itself and the church is not based around symbols ?
I am glad you agree with me though that Christianity is based on Faith and since the church is a place to gather for that faith even if thats a empty field with nothing its done to worship God and no symbol has to be present etc.. ?
and as you can see many dont think of the church as a building at all so you cant say the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CHURCH is based around symbols now can you ?
but you will you will twist it your way :) heheheeh
silly and sad really
**** just stop. I am done with this. How the **** did you ever get to be a senior member.
And what kind of man, uses the phrase "hehehehe" ever in his life
Honestly, what the hell are you even talking about. Why is this conversation continuing. What is the overall point you are trying to make.
I have listed mine numerous times, it is illogical to say we are alone. If you agree with that, why are you continuing to speak, as to that was the entire basis of this conversation.
Please just stop. You are beginning to ramble on and on about random topics, all running together within the same sentence and statements.
you cannot even insult me correctly. you've mentioned the same thing 3 times now, and still have yet to even realize what I was even referring to.
Please just stop with the incoherent jibber jabber
heehheheh
OH MAN I bet you were that little kid that ran home and cried when he lost :) heheheh
you said dispute it and i will welcome it ? OK I did and you want to shut it down like a kid cant have his way run away shut it down
again you are the one that said certain things are FACT and they are not ?
and you are the one that brought up wrong facts also about religion first :) and again were wrong like your age and origin of man that you say ARE FACT yet are not :)
**** just stop. I am done with this. How the **** did you ever get to be a senior member.
And what kind of man, uses the phrase "hehehehe" ever in his life
hehehe one who is laughing :)
so what man am I ? one that is comfortable in himself one that can laugh ? heck I am that guy that does not mind being goofy with my kid in public and does not have to pretend to be tough :)
this stuff does not steam my twinkies :) I laugh at a lot of stupid stuff this included :)
heck this thread title is funny in itself :)
CLOAKED UFO NEAR MERCURY
think about it that way and that is the only reason I went off :) in the general and about a cloaked UFO :) heheheh OH NO I LAUGHED AGAIN :)
got to admit if you are getting worked up over this you really need to chill big time my friend :)
and how did I become a senior member ? well lets see about 4 years before you did :)
and the first year I kept my mouth shut pretty much and read
the old I have two ears and one mouth used them accordingly kinda thing
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 07:16
Can I have a mod delete the posts starting with my original comment on page 3.
This thread has been derailed completely off topic
Can I have a mod delete the posts starting with my original comment on page 3.
This thread has been derailed completely off topic
Since you want to delete your post, I'll honor your wishes by not giving an answer to your assertions.
Wasn't this thread about an imagined UFO or something of the like? Astounding tanget we've somehow embarked upon.
montanadave
12-10-11, 10:54
Since you want to delete your post, I'll honor your wishes by not giving an answer to your assertions.
Thank you.
These science vs. religion arguments make my ass tired. It's like trying to teach a pig to whistle.
And please don't interpret that comment as disparaging towards one side or the other. I'm merely trying to point out that these discussions invariably end up with folks either preaching to the choir or talking right past one another. I have yet to see anyone shift their position once they engage.
Know what you know. Admit what you don't. Belief what you want. Sooner or later, we'll find out the truth. Or not. :jester:
WTF. What happened to this thread.
While Reagans Rascals is right overall his method of delivery leaves a lot to be desired.
I am often disturbed by the constant attempts to deny or marginalize science. The people who would deny Evolution ignore the fact that there is more evidence of evolution than there is for gravity. Of course I don't see them claiming that we should be floating off.
Same goes for Climate Change. When almost the entire Scientific community is showing you evidence for something you should probably pay attention. Of course I in part blame Al Gore for this one. His attempts to politicize Climate Change has turned it from a scientific issue into a polarizing political one.
Eventually Creationism and denial of Climate change will go the way of Flat Earthers and Geocentrist.
Back to the topic at hand. Obviously the original video is from a loon. But the fact is there is other life out there. Mathematically it is pretty much impossible for it not to be.
Same goes for Climate Change. When almost the entire Scientific community is showing you evidence for something you should probably pay attention. Of course I in part blame Al Gore for this one. His attempts to politicize Climate Change has turned it from a scientific issue into a polarizing political one.
Except that there are lots of scientists who point out all sorts of difficult evidence against anthropomorphic climate change (man made climate change) and they are shot down as being wackos. The science is not on the side of the pro global warming crowd being man made in many cases.
For example, research from CERN shows that the sun is responsible for a large amount of cloud creation which has a much greater affect on temperature than some extra CO2
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/25/cern_cloud_cosmic_ray_first_results/
And the whole "climate gate 2" emails recently released which show falsification of data through ignoring data that does not fit, cherry picking to make data fit, etc.
Except that there are lots of scientists who point out all sorts of difficult evidence against anthropomorphic climate change (man made climate change) and they are shot down as being wackos. The science is not on the side of the pro global warming crowd being man made in many cases.
For example, research from CERN shows that the sun is responsible for a large amount of cloud creation which has a much greater affect on temperature than some extra CO2
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/25/cern_cloud_cosmic_ray_first_results/
And the whole "climate gate 2" emails recently released which show falsification of data through ignoring data that does not fit, cherry picking to make data fit, etc.
"Climategate" is a joke. The new emails are just the old emails. And they were emails where small snippets were pulled out and used out of context. If you read the entire message there isn't much to them. I can think of one exception where someone talked about deleting some information. He was met with near total condemnation by the scientific community for that.
Yes there are a few (very few) scientists who argue against Climate change. they are shot down as wackos. Wcause quite frankly they tend to be. Thier data can almost never make it past peer review.
Finally read what CEarN actually published. It doesn't say what that article claims it does.
"Climategate" is a joke. The new emails are just the old emails. And they were emails where small snippets were pulled out and used out of context. If you read the entire message there isn't much to them. I can think of one exception where someone talked about deleting some information. He was met with near total condemnation by the scientific community for that.
Whatever you say.
Yes there are a few (very few) scientists who argue against Climate change. they are shot down as wackos. Wcause quite frankly they tend to be. Thier data can almost never make it past peer review.
There are a lot more than you want to admit to, and the main reason you do not see as much stuff in journals is that most journals have an embargo against anti-anthropomorphic climate change. They cannot even be submitted for review.
It has taken on a religious fervor.
The non-bandwagon scientists are labeled wackos precisely because they are not on the bandwagon, not because of faults in their science (in the general case -- I am sure there are people with extreme ideas on both ends of the spectrum)
Finally read what CEarN actually published. It doesn't say what that article claims it does.
So, what does it say? There is plenty of other evidence that the sun, cloud formation, etc plays a much larger role than any CO2 does. CERN was not the first to bring up the idea.
And ever increasing amounts of data show that CO2 levels are not high at all compared to historical periods of cold and warm spells.
The climate may be changing some, but human action is not the major driver.
Instead of trying to stop climate change through useless measures and mistaken belief that human action is a major cause, we should embrace it and use the resources spent fighting it to adapt to it instead. You cannot stop nature from doing its thing. It is ridiculous to even think you should try. Why waste all that money on a useless endeavor? Instead research ways of mitigating or adapting to the effects.
Don't have a lot of time Chadbag, getting ready to go to a Christmas party with my GF. I will post more later.
But for now here is some info:
Indexed list of all emails in their entirety:
http://foia2011.org/index.php?id=2
A video covering the newest stuff(A bit snarky but accurate)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OB2prBtVFo
And here are a number of Videos covering the topic in detail. They go into the actual data instead of the spin some media sources are trying to put on it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#g/c/A4F0994AFB057BB8
"Climategate" is a joke. The new emails are just the old emails. And they were emails where small snippets were pulled out and used out of context. If you read the entire message there isn't much to them. I can think of one exception where someone talked about deleting some information. He was met with near total condemnation by the scientific community for that.
Yes there are a few (very few) scientists who argue against Climate change. they are shot down as wackos. Wcause quite frankly they tend to be. Thier data can almost never make it past peer review.
Finally read what CEarN actually published. It doesn't say what that article claims it does.
yet you state scientist have facts of things to prove things and yet facts are in the emails a lot is false yet you decide to deny these facts ? I find that funny in itself that you are ignoring hard evidence !
yet you state scientist have facts of things to prove things and yet facts are in the emails a lot is false yet you decide to deny these facts ? I find that funny in itself that you are ignoring hard evidence !
Huh? Us this English? I assume you are trying to say a lot of things in the emails are false? Like what? And please read them for yourself, don't base your opinion off of what the media is telling you.
again you cant get all scientist to say YES climate change is real ! again many of them are saying no its not happening the way we think etc.. its just part of the earths weather change the same change that brought us ice ages and brought us out of them !
so how did the earth get out of ice age ? wow it had to warm up quite a bit I bet it was all those pre man animals and their cars !!!!!!!!
Chadbag hit the mark with the clouds and such having more problem then our cars ! and yet the vegetarians say its us meat people cause of the cows that kick off all the gases ?
and yet plants need CO2 ? I can see some dumb scientist finally figure out a way to get rid of CO2 and kill everything :)
kinda like how they try to balance nature !!! yeah they have proven to do such a great job of that !!!!!
thoughts for you climate nuts if cows are now putting off more gas than cars ? so what about all the buffalo that were around along with all the other massive amount of animals
again weather man cant really predict very far out with all the science they have and are often wrong yet somehow we can predict the total future ?
and again if science was so powerful and parts of it are :)
how come just a short bit ago they were positive that the earth was going to get super cold and freeze over as we entered another ice age
wow were they wrong !!!!!!
and again they switched to OK we are going into a huge meltdown ! when that got debunked now its just change so they can account for those record cold spells and hot spells
hmmmmmmm makes me wonder for sure and not trust em
Huh? Us this English? I assume you are trying to say a lot of things in the emails are false? Like what? And please read them for yourself, don't base your opinion off of what the media is telling you.
sorry I write bad ? thanks public schools :) I made up for it in other ways :) at least I know my weakness do you know yours ?
then how do you explain what I wrote above about the for sure heading into ice age then the back out of that into meltdown then back out of that now into just climate change ?
Like I said earlier. I am out and writing from my Phone so I can't go into detail now. But you need to read up on the difference between real Climate change and what the media throws around. Scientist have never seriously stated that cows are a the big contributi g problem. That is all media hype. Another great example is that if you look at sun activity it is at a low point. Therefore if it was responsible for the change, we would have a lower average temp. Instead it is higher.
Finally global warming itself is a misnomer put out there to misdirect. Yes the average temp is going up, something Judy is devastating to the world ecology and cant just easily be adapted too. But what that really means is hotter summers. Colder winters. And very short if any spring and fall to transition between the two.
Sure, be happy to. The first is induction, the conclusion never can follow from the beginning premises. the second is asserting the consequent. P implies Q, Q therefore P. The global climate change scam is a good example of the later. The fallacious assumption would be materialism, you would have to be omniscient to assert such a thing.
In answering SuwanneeTim I have given you your answer. Just as a side note the atheistic philosopher Betrand Russell was honest enough to agree that all science operates upon the logical fallacy of asserting the consequent. I also am not trying to destroy science, but pointing out that science can never reveal the true nature of things ( Albert Einstein ) nor reveal the true nature of the past.
****, I'm converted.
I will now subscribe exclusively to notions of snakes with vocal chords and trees that bear fruit which make you aware of good and evil.
Thank you for rescuing me from the idea of science which as you so carefully pointed out can't ever work.
sorry I write bad ? thanks public schools :) I made up for it in other ways :) at least I know my weakness do you know yours ?
Honu how is it such a monumental task for you to write properly? It has been pointed out to you several times, yet you continue to struggle. In fact it seems as though you think it's a big joke for whatever reason.
You intellectually demonstrate what should be the ability to correct your mistakes, but you fail to do so. It has become a tired act here and, like others probably do, I tend to skip over your posts because of it.
Does you no favors my good man.
considering science says their have been 5 ice ages ?
the earth has warmed up and cooled down 5 times !!!!
so the earth warmed up enough to melt off glaciers it managed to cool down enough to form glaciers that's a pretty massive shift and it did it 5 times !!!!!
so this trend they see is small and just part of the earths fluctuations
also again I would ask did you believe them in the 70s when they were positive we were quickly headed into a ice age because of man !!!!!
cause they were wrong then
they were wrong with the massive we are headed into melting the planet ? cause the idea of we are heading toward a melt down and have record colds did not fit so they now just call it change so they can say yeah thats part of it ?
and please read with a smile :) not mad like a good debate cause these things can seem heated :) in all honesty its fun to debate the unknowns cause they are just that unknown for sure
Like I said earlier. I am out and writing from my Phone so I can't go into detail now. But you need to read up on the difference between real Climate change and what the media throws around. Scientist have never seriously stated that cows are a the big contributi g problem. That is all media hype. Another great example is that if you look at sun activity it is at a low point. Therefore if it was responsible for the change, we would have a lower average temp. Instead it is higher.
Finally global warming itself is a misnomer put out there to misdirect. Yes the average temp is going up, something Judy is devastating to the world ecology and cant just easily be adapted too. But what that really means is hotter summers. Colder winters. And very short if any spring and fall to transition between the two.
Honu how is it such a monumental task for you to write properly? It has been pointed out to you several times, yet you continue to struggle. In fact it seems as though you think it's a big joke for whatever reason.
You intellectually demonstrate what should be the ability to correct your mistakes, but you fail to do so. It has become a tired act here and, like others probably do, I tend to skip over your posts because of it.
Does you no favors my good man.
sadly it is at 48 I have tried some things just dont make sense and grammar is one of them for me ?
yet I do pretty well have my own business top in my industry pure genius in some areas on computers and do lots of outside work with that
I am sure there are things you have tried and just cant grasp
everyone has holes in their game so to say ? mine is grammar
again at least I know mine :)
everyone has holes in their game so to say ? mine is grammar again at least I know mine :)
Ok then be responsible and plug your badly leaking hole. You seem a smart fellow, why set yourself back here or anywhere you converse?
thopkins22
12-10-11, 20:24
Aliens, God, global warming. Controversial things that piss what might be otherwise mature and reasonable people off.
Global warming exists. The earth is 0.6 degrees warmer than it was at the beginning of the last century. Humans have effected the climate ever since man first created fire. How much effect exactly? Nobody knows. Termites create an insane amount of CO2 each year just living. And who is to say that we/termites/volcanoes/the sun/whatever aren't making the climate better? Something would be seriously ****ing wrong with the earth if climate was steady...that really would be cause for alarm. But there is an incredible amount of junk science associated with climate change in general...on both sides of the argument.
God might exist. Nobody is ever going to change someone's mind about it. Stop trying. If somebody decides to believe or lose belief, they will do it on their own. Proselytization makes both sides look infantile and it's really annoying.
Aliens almost certainly exist...in some form, somewhere in the universe. Statistically, there is an incredibly strong chance. And a damn near equally strong chance that they would never come here. Our government on the other hand, is beyond inept and there is not a chance in hell that they could have kept a discovery of that magnitude quiet.
BUT...bring on the Alien talk. I dig it...just leave God and whether or not God believes in Chemistry sets at home please.
****, I'm converted.
I will now subscribe exclusively to notions of snakes with vocal chords and trees that bear fruit which make you aware of good and evil.
Thank you for rescuing me from the idea of science which as you so carefully pointed out can't ever work.
Please calm yourself. God is omnipotent, these things are not difficult for Him. I don't convert people, God does that. And lastly I didn't say that science doesn't work. I indicated that it works real well at making stuff, it's highly limited or useless at finding out things like where we came from, what is our purpose, what is moral.
I guess I will ask this now. Since you are an agnostic therefore skeptical about the ultimate issue, how do escape being skeptical about every truth claim. Are you skeptical about all those things you identify in your tag line? Are they just preferences with no real purpose other than they are the accidental firings of your synapses in your brain (the evolutionary model)? When Bertrand Russell was asked whether murder was objectively wrong, he could not answer the question, except to say he didn't know, but that he didn't prefer it. Would you agree?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 22:11
it's highly limited or useless at finding out things like where we came from, what is our purpose, what is moral.
Science has never claimed to have the answers to these things. It has simply sought to possibly find them, or perhaps lead up to something that could.
IN FACT... it was these very questions that lead to the very creation of science and philosophy
but then again, I guess some people are content to watch their house burn down because "it was meant to happen," instead of maybe be a little proactive.
If god made us, made our world, gave us the minds we have and the circumstances with which to use them, it is logically to say that god made science, and therefore god himself presented us with the means with which to discover these questions in life.
if god can make or do anything, can he make a boulder that even he himself cannot lift? If no, then he cannot in fact do anything and everything, if yes, then he can't lift something so once again he can't do anything and everything.
We can talk about paradoxes all f'in day... and at the end nothing will have changed
I guess I will ask this now. Since you are an agnostic therefore skeptical about the ultimate issue, how do escape being skeptical about every truth claim. Are you skeptical about all those things you identify in your tag line? Are they just preferences with no real purpose other than they are the accidental firings of your synapses in your brain (the evolutionary model)? When Bertrand Russell was asked whether murder was objectively wrong, he could not answer the question, except to say he didn't know, but that he didn't prefer it. Would you agree?
I think he is skeptical about those things that are not within the human capacity to understand, that meaning, things which have yet to be explained, that are then half-assed explained by things like religion which require no basis in reality other than a good imagination and a hole inside longing to be filled. "Not within the human capacity to understand".. that doesn't mean they will never be explained, or that humans will never have the capacity to understand them. It just means we haven't done so yet.
THE HUMAN MIND LONGS FOR COMFORT AND BELONGING, IT REQUIRES LOGICAL ANSWERS FOR THINGS, AND WHEN THERE IS NO LOGICAL ANSWER, INSTEAD OF SIMPLY SAYING "THERE IS NO LOGICAL ANSWER"... IT TRIES TO RATIONALIZE THINGS WITH LOGICAL ANSWERS TO COMFORT ITSELF, SO AT THE END OF THE NIGHT IT DOESN'T FEEL LOST OR HOPELESS.... ENTER RELIGION
BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE, OR WHY WE ARE HERE, OR WHAT OUR PURPOSE IS, OR EVEN WHAT WILL HAPPEN TOMORROW MORNING, INSTEAD OF JUST TAKING IT AS IT IS, WE INVENT THINGS LIKE RELIGION TO COMFORT US... TO TELL OUR MINDS EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE OK... LIKE A MOTHER COMFORTING A FRIGHTENED CHILD.
INSTEAD OF TAKING THE DEATH OF A LOVED ONE AS A TRAGEDY AND MOVING ON, WE SAY THINGS LIKE "I'LL SEE THEM AGAIN" TO COMFORT OURSELVES
HENCE THE PHRASE.... EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON..... WHY CAN'T THINGS JUST HAPPEN?... WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A REASON?... BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE NEED COMFORT
WATCH THE FILM "THE INVENTION OF LYING" and it'll make things easier to comprehend
Science has never claimed to have the answers to these things. It has simply sought to possibly find them, or perhaps lead up to something that could.
IN FACT... it was these very questions that lead to the very creation of science and philosophy
but then again, I guess some people are content to watch their house burn down because "it was meant to happen," instead of maybe be a little proactive.
If god made us, made our world, gave us the minds we have and the circumstances with which to use them, it is logically to say that god
made science, and therefore god himself presented us with the means with which to discover these questions in life.
if god can make or do anything, can he make a boulder that even he himself cannot lift? If no, then he cannot in fact do anything and everything, if yes, then he can't lift something so once again he can't do anything and everything.
We can talk about paradoxes all f'in day... and at the end nothing will have changed
I think he is skeptical about those things that are not within the human capacity to understand, that meaning, things which have yet to be explained, that are then half-assed explained by things like religion which require no basis in reality other than a good imagination and a hole inside longing to be filled. "Not within the human capacity to understand".. that doesn't mean they will never be explained, or that humans will never have the capacity to understand them. It just means we haven't done so yet.
God doesn't will to do the irrational. I've come to understand God fairly well, He loves to enlighten His children, He's given me His word, and caused me to believe, and understand it. He is most gracious.
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 22:35
God doesn't will to do the irrational. I've come to understand God fairly well, He loves to enlighten His children, He's given me His word, and caused me to believe, and understand it. He is most gracious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFcqGGMPc3k.................good luck with that
Ok then be responsible and plug your badly leaking hole. You seem a smart fellow, why set yourself back here or anywhere you converse?
NO I think I will still say what I want
guess when things dont go your way we know the true colors come out ;)
yeah I dont agree so SHUT UP :) sounds like a bratty kid
pathetic really and if someone wants to judge me on how I write that's fine ? pretty shallow of them actually and I would rather judge on actions and that action alone says a lot about a person on a forum telling others to shut up :)
so again I ask the global warming nuts since its not proven man is responsible ?
to please explain how the earth then has been in 5 ice ages and happen to get cold enough to form glaciers all over and then warm up enough to cool them off ? and now all of a sudden man is responsible ?
maybe we are just on another cycle ? if man was around with no engines nothing in one of those warming cycles would they have called that man made global warming ? since man was not around what do the scientist call this warming and cooling problem ?
maybe they have to learn nature is good at balancing itself and man has nothing to do with it
also again did you believe them in the 70s when they were positive we were headed into a ice age !!!
I do think the earth could be warming ? heck we know its been cold enough to freeze everything and then warm enough to melt all those glaciers and create tropical times ? so if this has happened 5 times already why not just realize its nothing but nature ?
Please calm yourself. God is omnipotent, these things are not difficult for Him. I don't convert people, God does that. And lastly I didn't say that science doesn't work. I indicated that it works real well at making stuff, it's highly limited or useless at finding out things like where we came from, what is our purpose, what is moral.
First, I don't know why you would assume I'm not calm. I think science is currently the best method we have of determining where we came from, I'm not aware of a better method. Do you have a more accurate one that I should be aware of?
Science isn't a method of determining what is moral. That you think science exists for such a purpose suggests you don't have the best understanding of what science is and is not.
I guess I will ask this now. Since you are an agnostic therefore skeptical about the ultimate issue, how do escape being skeptical about every truth claim. Are you skeptical about all those things you identify in your tag line? Are they just preferences with no real purpose other than they are the accidental firings of your synapses in your brain (the evolutionary model)? When Bertrand Russell was asked whether murder was objectively wrong, he could not answer the question, except to say he didn't know, but that he didn't prefer it. Would you agree?
I am only agnostic about issues where truth cannot be determined. On those issues I may have "beliefs" but I recognize the possibility that my "beliefs" could be in error and am ready to modify them if and when necessary.
Most of my signature isn't made up of beliefs. Who says the function of the brain is accidental? You seem to operate under the assumption that everything is random accident or design, that is hardly the case. The evolutionary model is not accidental, that isn't what evolution says at all.
And murder IS wrong, not because of some intelligent design. In fact our evolution as dominant predator gives us a very distinct predisposition for such things. But murder is wrong because as we have civilized ourselves we realize somethings are not acceptable. It is a progression just as slavery is now far less acceptable than it was in biblical times.
But none of this matters, you believe in an omnipotent God which defies all natural laws and makes things like talking snakes and wisdom trees no problem. So with that I will subscribe to the notion of Big Purple Kid. Nothing actually exists, you and I aren't actually having this discussion, there is no universe. Everything, all that we think exists, has existed or will exist is actually nothing more than the daydreams of Big Purple Kid.
And you can't prove otherwise.
It's accidental in the sense that the universes serves no particular purpose. Evolution postulates no real purpose to anything. It would make no difference at all whether anything exists or not. There is no grand plan.
So morality is just what civilization says it is? There is no objective truth? What if my evolutionary path leads me to believe that serial murder is acceptable. Is morality just a matter of 51% of the world believing something is right or wrong? I suppose that since in my part of the world that purchasing new AR's is illegal, and considered immoral by the majority I should just shape up...right? Basing morality on what man thinks it is, is really basing it on shifting sand.
By all means eat, drink, and be merry for soon we will die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFcqGGMPc3k.................good luck with that
You showed me didn't you.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 02:02
It's accidental in the sense that the universes serves no particular purpose. Evolution postulates no real purpose to anything. It would make no difference at all whether anything exists or not. There is no grand plan.
So morality is just what civilization says it is? There is no objective truth? What if my evolutionary path leads me to believe that serial murder is acceptable. Is morality just a matter of 51% of the world believing something is right or wrong? I suppose that since in my part of the world that purchasing new AR's is illegal, and considered immoral by the majority I should just shape up...right? Basing morality on what man thinks it is, is really basing it on shifting sand.
By all means eat, drink, and be merry for soon we will die.
clearly you have no concept of the the term morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
morality is just that, a set code of conduct based upon societal acceptance and implementation.
Mr. Steyr you have converted me as well... all praise Big Purple Kid
pathetic really and if someone wants to judge me on how I write that's fine ? pretty shallow of them actually and I would rather judge on actions and that action alone says a lot about a person on a forum telling others to shut up :)
No one is judging you buddy.
It makes it easier to understand when punctuation is used, thats all.
No one told you "Shut up".
Everyone just breathe. Relax.
Were on the same side guys
thought the plug your leaking hole was telling me to shut up ?
if not what does it mean ? :) kinda stupid childish IMHO or maybe ignorant ?
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 03:42
thought the plug your leaking hole was telling me to shut up ?
if not what does it mean ? :) kinda stupid childish IMHO or maybe ignorant ?
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
Moose-Knuckle
12-11-11, 03:55
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3309/3432896820_8f79a73487.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27061960@N07/3432896820/)
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 05:08
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3309/3432896820_8f79a73487.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27061960@N07/3432896820/)
I think I recall seeing the 2 on the left enjoying a nice Easter Sunday lounging around on their boat... before the Navy came and ruined their pleasant day...
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
-------------------------------------------------
Reagans Rascals--I recommend projectiles that offer the terminal performance characteristics for the intended target. I also recognize the reality of the laws of physics, as well as the basic anatomic and physiological effects caused by penetrating projectiles. You appear to be off base in your comments and reasoning.
bigger rounds make bigger holes.... plain and simple... there is no replacement for displacement... try and argue your way out of that.
and I could care less who I am talking to.... common sense is common sense... I don't care if someones resume` gets your dick hard... I'm not that easily aroused...
--------------------------------------------------
OH MAN !!!!!!
I am sorry for going so badly off topic :)
guess the troll got me this time !!!!
feel like this should be my new sig
The only way the target will be moved from the force of the round, is if the round impacts them directly in the plate... you get hit and fly back..
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 07:02
heheheheh OH MAN !!!!!!
seems you have still not learned the old you have two ears and one mouth you should use them accordingly !
to all the others I am sorry for going so badly off topic :)
guess the troll got me this time !!!! again very sorry
the fact that you actually took the time to read through my entire post history, just to then, repost it in regards to a completely different topic.... just shows how infantile you are, with the grammar skills to match.
It actually makes me laugh, for more than a few seconds, to picture you feverishly searching through my history, looking and looking, for anything, that one post that could change it all, that could pull your battered and bruised ego from the depths.
And it actually flatters me to know I mean that much to you, that you're willing to spend your night thinking about me.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 07:05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
in case you were wondering what that specific, childlike argumentative style/character flaw is called
E.T.A. --- I'm still laughing by the way
"Climategate" is a joke.
200 years ago if it was too hot, or it flooded, or any kind of disaster happened, God was mad at you. You had done wrong in the eyes of the lord, but if you did what the priest said, oh and gave more money to the church they would talk to God on your behalf and make it better. Today again it is your fault but if you do what the gov says and pay more money it will be fixed. Same scam.
The joke is, so many have bought into man-made climate change. what happened to global warming, oh right the earth has cooled some so now we have to call it something else:rolleyes:. Of course the climate changes. It always has and always will with or without us. In fact the earth has been warmer than it is right now and we have had ice ages, all of this long before cars and such, how did happen, must have been all of the cows farting. We are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, people need to realize the scam for what it is. It is a tool for control of the dumb masses (say the last two words faster and it makes more sense).
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 07:17
200 years ago if it was too hot, or it flooded, or any kind of disaster happened, God was mad at you. You had done wrong in the eyes of the lord, but if you did what the priest said, oh and gave more money to the church they would talk to God on your behalf and make it better. Today again it is your fault but if you do what the gov says and pay more money it will be fixed. Same scam.
The joke is, so many have bought into man-made climate change. what happened to global warming, oh right the earth has cooled some so now we have to call it something else:rolleyes:. Of course the climate changes. It always has and always will with or without us. In fact the earth has been warmer than it is right now, long before cars and such, how did happen, must have been all of the cows farting. We are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, people need to realize the scam for what it is. It is a tool for control of the dumb masses (say the last two words faster and it makes more sense).
I do believe in climate change, now whether or not is it man made, or adversely affected by man, I don't know. But I do know, it is a fact, the dust bowl was man made. I would think if a situation as severe as that is capable of being attributed to man, global climate change might be as well, over a long term.
It is more than possible, that the earth is just simply doing its own thing and those in power are jumping on the opportunity to make a buck off of it...
If terraforming is capable of creating an atmosphere around a barren celestial body by consistently emitting greenhouse type gasses, it would be logical to assert that if one were to do the same thing on a planet already complete with an atmosphere, it would simply make it thicker...
I do believe in climate change, now whether or not is it man made, or adversely affected by man, I don't know. But I do know, it is a fact, the dust bowl was man made. I would think if a situation as severe as that is capable of being attributed to man, global climate change might be as well, over a long term.
In the 70's it was all about the coming ice age. The 90's it was "the greenhouse effect". So which is it? Both they tell us now because, now it is simply climate change. Like I said we can prove beyond a show of doubt that the climate changes, it has done so with and without us.
In the 70's it was all about the coming ice age. The 90's it was "the greenhouse effect". So which is it? Both they tell us now because, now it is simply climate change. Like I said we can prove beyond a show of doubt that the climate changes, it has done so with and without us.
I have been saying the same thing about the 70s thing also ? no reply though
also I ask since the world has gone through 5 ice ages the earth in past without man cooled down enough to create glaciers and heated up so much as to melt them ?
yet none of the climate change folks here want to say anything about that :)
by the way what you said above about the priests in the past or the GOV today is dead on
to me its about the people in power trying to use things to scare the others into listening to them for their own gains !!!
the fact that you actually took the time to read through my entire post history, just to then, repost it in regards to a completely different topic.... just shows how infantile you are, with the grammar skills to match.
It actually makes me laugh, for more than a few seconds, to picture you feverishly searching through my history, looking and looking, for anything, that one post that could change it all, that could pull your battered and bruised ego from the depths.
And it actually flatters me to know I mean that much to you, that you're willing to spend your night thinking about me.
did not spend much time about 2 seconds in google with the term
Reagans Rascals troll m4carbine.net
read the first post and only that post ?
man all that knowledge from that ONE post :)
yup I cant write :) thats my bad !
guess we found yours :)
I was curious if others saw you as a troll and YUP so no feverish looking nothing like that ? sorry
it was worth a few minutes of my time to know who I am talking to
something you obviously dont do !!
heheheheh OH man classic though
another classic :)
and yes... taking a round to the plate will knock you back.. I have experience with and without the plate.
on UFOs
anyone talk to pilots that flew or fly jets and are willing to speak about things they have seen ?
most wont say anything to anyone in chance of sounding crazy though especially current commercial pilots
but have to say heard some amazing things that make you wonder from some of them !!!
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 08:11
did not spend much time about 2 seconds in google with the term
Reagans Rascals troll m4carbine.net
read the first post and only that post ?
man all that knowledge from that ONE post :)
yup I cant write :) thats my bad !
guess we found yours :)
I was curious if others saw you as a troll and YUP so no feverish looking nothing like that ? sorry
it was worth a few minutes of my time to know who I am talking to
something you obviously dont do !!
heheheheh OH man classic though
another classic :)
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
Reading this thread has been like watching a Special Olympics relay race.
SWATcop556
12-11-11, 08:59
Reading this thread has been like watching a Special Olympics relay race.
Amen. RR and Honu, knock your shit off. Both of you.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 09:03
Amen. RR and Honu, knock your shit off. Both of you.
excuse you?... I have repeated multiple times, pages before this one, that it was time to drop it.
Was I the one that took the time to search through the post history of honu and then post it on here, when it literally had nothing to do whatsoever with the numerous topics this thread has floated about.
Don't call me out on someone else's b.s. I asked to have all posts deleted by a mod, yesterday, to no avail.
montanadave
12-11-11, 09:36
As I noted in a previous post, discussions of this sort invariably prove unproductive and merely foment animus between forum members.
Move over Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Big Purple Kid's in town! :lol:
On a more serious note, Eric Weiner has an excellent piece in this week's NYT Sunday Review entitled "Americans: Undecided About God?" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/opinion/sunday/americans-and-god.html?_r=1&ref=opinion)
The author makes a very cogent argument for finding a spiritual path (and perhaps a new religion to facilitate the public discussion and expression of that spiritual path) which stakes out a middle ground between the True Believers of traditional religion, with all of its accompanying orthodoxy and dogma, and the Angry Atheists, who categorically reject any possibility of God, much less a personal relationship with such a concept.
Weiner uses the term "Nones" for those people who do not subscribe to a traditional faith but are open to the concept of a higher power, indeed, would welcome the possibility of a relationship with the same. He also notes the disturbing trend towards conflating religion and politics, causing many to reject a religious view simply because they do not want to adopt the political orientation which has been infused into it.
From the article:
"I am not a True Believer. I am a rationalist. I believe the Enlightenment was a very good thing, and don’t wish to return to an age of raw superstition...
We Nones may not believe in God, but we hope to one day. We have a dog in this hunt...
I imagine a religious space that celebrates doubt, encourages experimentation and allows one to utter the word God without embarrassment. A religious operating system for the Nones among us. And for all of us."
While I may not fully subscribe to all of Weiner's positions, I have to say that, overall, the position he outlines in this article reflects my own quite accurately.
excuse you?... I have repeated multiple times, pages before this one, that it was time to drop it...
Don't call me out on someone else's b.s. I asked to have all posts deleted by a mod, yesterday, to no avail.
This is no way to respond to someone who was commenting on your senseless, blatantly obvious back and forth with Honu. Reading through all the flack traded between you two is tedious to say the least. Slamming a mod for commenting on it is idiotic.
And Honu, maybe take the time to re-read my last post, including the part where I quoted you. Suggesting you plug your hole had nothing to do with telling you to shut up.
And Honu, maybe take the time to re-read my last post, including the part where I quoted you. Suggesting you plug your hole had nothing to do with telling you to shut up.
OK sorry then :) sounded like it ?
clearly you have no concept of the the term morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
morality is just that, a set code of conduct based upon societal acceptance and implementation.
Mr. Steyr you have converted me as well... all praise Big Purple Kid
You can blame my lack of comprehension on evolution, it's just the way nature made me.
Question for you. Why would you think that the death of a person is a tragedy? It seems to me that it is just a natural occurrence that happens thousands of times everyday. Nature has ordered it as such. The sun sets, earthquakes happen, bags of rearranged molecules bump into things and go the way of all stuff. Why is something so natural a tragedy?
Just so I'm clear on this. It's not the job of science to set morality, there is no supernatural, no metaphysics, society determines what's right and wrong at any given time. And there is no ultimate truth, except the ultimate truth that there is no ultimate truth. Is that your position, or close to it?
Question for you. Why would you think that the death of a person is a tragedy?
I guess we'll assume you are talking about someone dying of an age related issue late in life. This because you surely wouldn't be foolish, misguided and callous enough to regard the untimely death of a child as anything other than a tragedy. Or that of a person who is murdered, or that of a family who perishes in a house fire.
Take a trip to your local Children's hospital and see tragedy unfolding everywhere around you, unless perhaps your interpretation of a tragedy is losing your wallet.
It's accidental in the sense that the universes serves no particular purpose. Evolution postulates no real purpose to anything. It would make no difference at all whether anything exists or not. There is no grand plan.
So morality is just what civilization says it is? There is no objective truth? What if my evolutionary path leads me to believe that serial murder is acceptable. Is morality just a matter of 51% of the world believing something is right or wrong? I suppose that since in my part of the world that purchasing new AR's is illegal, and considered immoral by the majority I should just shape up...right? Basing morality on what man thinks it is, is really basing it on shifting sand.
By all means eat, drink, and be merry for soon we will die.
I agree that all things man made such as civilization and related morals are artificial. Before that we were little more than clever animals and murder was no more significant than when a predator takes down a prey or another animal killed to defend territory.
Murder is a distinction "we" recognized.
It very well could be there is no grand plan, no watchmaker and that we simply live for a time and cease to exist forever. Or we could all simply be the daydream of Big Purple Kid.
I would also suggest that if "belief in God" is all that is preventing somebody from murdering somebody else, that person is hardly a "moral" person. If your religion was somehow conclusively proven to be man made, would you really cease to be a good person? With no higher power to judge your soul, would your actions become uncivilized?
You can blame my lack of comprehension on evolution, it's just the way nature made me.
Not correct, evolution has advanced you sufficiently to have a choice about some things.
Question for you. Why would you think that the death of a person is a tragedy? It seems to me that it is just a natural occurrence that happens thousands of times everyday. Nature has ordered it as such. The sun sets, earthquakes happen, bags of rearranged molecules bump into things and go the way of all stuff. Why is something so natural a tragedy?
Nature is without conscience, It is merely a force, it is not for the good or bad. Man on the other hand does have a conscience and has evolved a civilization and has recognized distinctions between good and bad. We recognize that the lion must kill the gazelle to survive, but we still sometimes pity the gazelle. Would it be more good for the lion or the gazelle to live?
Just so I'm clear on this. It's not the job of science to set morality, there is no supernatural, no metaphysics, society determines what's right and wrong at any given time. And there is no ultimate truth, except the ultimate truth that there is no ultimate truth. Is that your position, or close to it?
It is NOT the job of science to set morals for society. Science must conduct research under the rules of morality but that is a different discussion.
We have no evidence of supernatural currently. It may or may not exist.
Metaphysics predates science and is nothing more than attempting to answer the same questions via philosophy.
There may or may not be an "ultimate truth", there may or may not be a "grand plan." We very well could be a cosmic joke. Or it could be no more than something to amuse Big Purple Kid.
Currently...we don't know.
Would it be more good for the lion or the gazelle to live?
I think you meant "more gooder". :D
While we disagree on some things, I completely agree with you here. Tom and others like him are so certain that the Lord controls all that they will often say things like when a child dies horribly it is God's will. He didn't specifically state that, but I could read between the lines because I know others who think as he does.
Personally I find it to be desperate justification for something that simply can't be justified. I do believe in God, but in order for me to respect him I have to believe he doesn't have the capacity nor desire to inflict such massive amounts of pain as a matter of routine procedure.
I give this 24 hr or less before it is locked
I agree that all things man made such as civilization and related morals are artificial. Before that we were little more than clever animals and murder was no more significant than when a predator takes down a prey or another animal killed to defend territory.
Murder is a distinction "we" recognized.
I actually disagree with this a bit. If you look at higher functioning animal societies like other Apes besides humans or even pack animals like wolves, they do indeed have a basic structure of "laws" in place. It isn't a conscious decision like ours is but more a function of survival and evolution. Chaos isn't conducive to the continuation of the community. So if an ape kills another ape it harms the group as a whole (unless that individual was already doing something against the greater good of the community). It is the natural order of things. Our base morals and ethics have evolved from the basic needs for our species to continue.
We have indeed attached more meaning to it and penalties without our society. But the base instinct to protect other members of our species isn't unique to humans. Nor are many of the other activities we partake in. Ants, other great apes, and many species have been observed going to war for protection or to take territory.
When it comes down to it, we are just slightly more evolved apes, and we act pretty much the same.
Personally I find it to be desperate justification for something that simply can't be justified. I do believe in God, but in order for me to respect him I have to believe he doesn't have the capacity nor desire to inflict such massive amounts of pain as a matter of routine procedure.
This is why I'm usually dismissive of Yahweh specifically. I would like to think there is an afterlife and a plan and somebody at the wheel. There is no evidence for that at all, but it would be nice if true.
But if there really is some kind of creator, I really hope it isn't Yahweh because he is a savage and flawed deity.
I actually disagree with this a bit. If you look at higher functioning animal societies like other Apes besides humans or even pack animals like wolves, they do indeed have a basic structure of "laws" in place. It isn't a conscious decision like ours is but more a function of survival and evolution. Chaos isn't conducive to the continuation of the community. So if an ape kills another ape it harms the group as a whole (unless that individual was already doing something against the greater good of the community). It is the natural order of things. Our base morals and ethics have evolved from the basic needs for our species to continue.
We have indeed attached more meaning to it and penalties without our society. But the base instinct to protect other members of our species isn't unique to humans. Nor are many of the other activities we partake in. Ants, other great apes, and many species have been observed going to war for protection or to take territory.
When it comes down to it, we are just slightly more evolved apes, and we act pretty much the same.
Well until proven otherwise we are the only species capable of abstract thoughts, logic and reasoning. But that doesn't mean I subscribe to the religious notion that all other animals are not capable of the kinds of intelligence you referenced.
Many species are certainly capable of emotions and things like that. But where the line is drawn is kind of hard to pin down. Animals can exhibit structure, hierarchy and act for the greater good, but I'm not sure I'd call that civilization just yet.
I agree that all things man made such as civilization and related morals are artificial. Before that we were little more than clever animals and murder was no more significant than when a predator takes down a prey or another animal killed to defend territory.
Murder is a distinction "we" recognized.
It very well could be there is no grand plan, no watchmaker and that we simply live for a time and cease to exist forever. Or we could all simply be the daydream of Big Purple Kid.
I would also suggest that if "belief in God" is all that is preventing somebody from murdering somebody else, that person is hardly a "moral" person. If your religion was somehow conclusively proven to be man made, would you really cease to be a good person? With no higher power to judge your soul, would your actions become uncivilized?
Your use of the word artificial is telling here. If morality is artificial it would seem very difficult to hold anyone to it in any sort of consistent way. IMO the USA is undergoing this now.
Since evolution is driven by chance, I don't see how a choice can have any meaning one way or the other. Whether one chooses murder, or helping orphans has no ultimate meaning.
I don't look to science to prove much of anything really. I wouldn't go to a physics book or a book on sociology to find out that George Washington existed, or what he believed. So I go to the Bible to see what the eyewitnesses of this person Jesus said and did. I just so happen to believe it is accurate.
I think you meant "more gooder". :D
While we disagree on some things, I completely agree with you here. Tom and others like him are so certain that the Lord controls all that they will often say things like when a child dies horribly it is God's will. He didn't specifically state that, but I could read between the lines because I know others who think as he does.
Personally I find it to be desperate justification for something that simply can't be justified. I do believe in God, but in order for me to respect him I have to believe he doesn't have the capacity nor desire to inflict such massive amounts of pain as a matter of routine procedure.
The Bible and metaphysics does require it. I take the death of anyone very seriously, since God takes the subject of death very seriously. I just don't see how death can be counted a tragedy under the theories of materialistic evolution. It's nature at work, and happens everyday, it's common.
Your use of the word artificial is telling here. If morality is artificial it would seem very difficult to hold anyone to it in any sort of consistent way. IMO the USA is undergoing this now.
All civilization is artificial. It is a thin veneer of rules we agree to only up until the point where they are no longer mutually beneficial.
Since evolution is driven by chance, I don't see how a choice can have any meaning one way or the other. Whether one chooses murder, or helping orphans has no ultimate meaning.
Your use of the word "chance" is very telling. Evolution is not driven solely by chance. Many things drive evolution, too many to explain to someone not really interested in knowing.
And of course there is meaning in choices, otherwise you are basically saying were it not for you religion you would be a murdering rapist who eats orphans for dinner. I really hope there is more than just belief in the supernatural keeping you from being that person.
I don't look to science to prove much of anything really. I wouldn't go to a physics book or a book on sociology to find out that George Washington existed, or what he believed. So I go to the Bible to see what the eyewitnesses of this person Jesus said and did. I just so happen to believe it is accurate.
So you accept religion and philosophy as the best means of understanding the truth but reject science for that purpose. Your choice.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 22:21
Once again, one big stubborn circle talk.
Questions like is it more divine for the lion or the gazelle to live, are the reasons these discussions turn out the way they do.
That's just basic circle talk. I had a roommate in college who actually argued the position that my idea to pay for transplants at St. Jude's if I had won the Powerball, was evil. And he defended his position by referring to Ishmael, and saying if god chose to let the eagle live by killing the rabbit, then this is evil on behalf of the rabbit, however if he chooses to let the rabbit live the eagle will starve, once again being evil on behalf of the eagle.
That's basic bullshit circle talk by attributing everything equal parts of good and bad. There is no bad associated with giving a dying child a kidney.... oh but what if that kid grows up and becomes a murderer, I have then facilitated that persons death by the gift of a kidney so in the end it is evil.......
its all b.s.
I heard a quote once that is very fitting:
a person will do outrageous things when they believe in cause, they'll do even more when they just plain believe...
Once again, one big stubborn circle talk.
Questions like is it more divine for the lion or the gazelle to live, are the reasons these discussions turn out the way they do.
That's just basic circle talk. I had a roommate in college who actually argued the position that my idea to pay for transplants at St. Jude's if I had won the Powerball, was evil. And he defended his position by referring to Ishmael, and saying if god chose to let the eagle live by killing the rabbit, then this is evil on behalf of the rabbit, however if he chooses to let the rabbit live the eagle will starve, once again being evil on behalf of the eagle.
That's basic bullshit circle talk by attributing everything equal parts of good and bad. There is no bad associated with giving a dying child a kidney.... oh but what if that kid grows up and becomes a murderer, I have then facilitated that persons death by the gift of a kidney so in the end it is evil.......
its all b.s.
I heard a quote once that is very fitting:
a person will do outrageous things when they believe in cause, they'll do even more when they just plain believe...
Actually, if you read it again, my lion/gazelle example pretty much agrees with the points you are making. The only good or evil associated with the event depends upon if you are the lion or the gazelle.
All civilization is artificial. It is a thin veneer of rules we agree to only up until the point where they are no longer mutually beneficial.
Mutually beneficial is an arbitrary requirement, maybe it's only beneficial to me, or my group. And of course people are fickle aren't they?
Your use of the word "chance" is very telling. Evolution is not driven solely by chance. Many things drive evolution, too many to explain to someone not really interested in knowing.
How do you know I'm not interested. What is the other engine?
And of course there is meaning in choices, otherwise you are basically saying were it not for you religion you would be a murdering rapist who eats orphans for dinner. I really hope there is more than just belief in the supernatural keeping you from being that person.
And that meaning is invented, and subjective to that person. It's nothing but a preference, having no broader significance to others if that's their preference.
Being a vicious criminal is possible, but not inevitable option. But if there is no objective standard, the opinion of the majority being the only measure, it would be an acceptable option. Who knows tomorrow murdering folk might be acceptable in any given part of the world....that could happen right?
So you accept religion and philosophy as the best means of understanding the truth but reject science for that purpose. Your choice.
I believe revelation is the only way to understand ultimate things. Like where we came front, what is our purpose, where are we going, what's right, what's wrong etc.
Again, I do not hold that there is no knowledge in science, but that it is complete in any sense. Through science we can build an airplane, but darn if the things don't fall out of the sky. Science has brought us medicine that helps treat cancer, but sometimes that same type of cancer in another person doesn't respond to that same medicine, and scientists aren't sure why. We don't even know the exact boiling point of water in any ultimate sense, since you would have to be omniscient to factor in every variable, some of which scientist may not even be aware yet. If things were known completely, why the need for multiple experiments, isn't it because the knowledge gain is never, ever complete? Like I said before even an unbelieving scientist, Albert Einstein, expected all his theories to be proved false in the future, and that we will never be able to know the true nature of things.
I messed up the post, but I think you can see my answers ok.
polydeuces
12-11-11, 23:11
What happened to the little green guys with cloaking devices?
This thread is so ****ed with theoligeoumetaphysciencebullcrap and wasting such stupendoes bandwidth in the cybernetic mutiverse its beyond redemption and salvation (pardon the pun) so please someone please put it out of it's misery...please....
Not trying to be rude, but you could just not look. There must be some interest, there are over 2200 views.
polydeuces
12-12-11, 00:55
So you feel that getting 2200 views validates this somehow as being a contribution to this forum?
Me wonders if its "interest" or voyeurism.
Seriously, this thread is so derailed and hyjacked it needs shutting down.
Reagans Rascals
12-12-11, 01:55
Actually, if you read it again, my lion/gazelle example pretty much agrees with the points you are making. The only good or evil associated with the event depends upon if you are the lion or the gazelle.
I am using your post as a reference to the way these people argue, I'm with you, not against you
Moose-Knuckle
12-12-11, 02:28
There must be some interest, there are over 2200 views.
And those are all for a Cloaked UFO near Mercury. . .
:suicide:
Again, I do not hold that there is no knowledge in science, but that it is complete in any sense. Through science we can build an airplane, but darn if the things don't fall out of the sky. Science has brought us medicine that helps treat cancer, but sometimes that same type of cancer in another person doesn't respond to that same medicine, and scientists aren't sure why. We don't even know the exact boiling point of water in any ultimate sense, since you would have to be omniscient to factor in every variable, some of which scientist may not even be aware yet. If things were known completely, why the need for multiple experiments, isn't it because the knowledge gain is never, ever complete? Like I said before even an unbelieving scientist, Albert Einstein, expected all his theories to be proved false in the future, and that we will never be able to know the true nature of things.
I messed up the post, but I think you can see my answers ok.
What the heck are you talking about. You are showing your ignorance of science and how it works. They know exactly how planes work and 99% of the time why they don't when they fail.
They also know for the most part how different body chemistries can impact medicines. This is like saying science is fake because it can't cure the common cold, when the cold is a different strain every year.
And yes scientists know the boiling point of water. And they can tell you how adding certain chemicals can change that. Or how pressure/altitude can change it.
And you need multiple experiments because that is how it works. You need to discount variables. Was there an outside unknown that changed the results? Lets do it again to see. A good scientist is open the possibility of being wrong. That is the pretty much whole premise of science. If you can't see the benefit of that then no there isn't much hope you will understand.
Just a Jarhead
12-12-11, 05:09
This is why I'm usually dismissive of Yahweh specifically. I would like to think there is an afterlife and a plan and somebody at the wheel. There is no evidence for that at all, but it would be nice if true.
But if there really is some kind of creator, I really hope it isn't Yahweh because he is a savage and flawed deity.
Please tell us of your search for truth in determining whether or not God exist? It's clearly evident you've read all the anti-god and science books. Have you read or studied and pro- GOD related books at all Steyr? I'll take a wild guess and say the bible was probably not one of them. You can look for gold all day long but unless you look and search in the right spot, you're going to dig until you hit china and come up empty handed. Many of you are looking in all the wrong spots!
When it comes to Jesus and his claims to be the Messiah, we only have 3 possible choices;
1). He was a lunatic
2). a liar
3). Or he was exactly who and what he said he was.
Most religions of the world claim that Jesus was a good man, even so far to say he was a prophet, but not the messiah. However they talk out of both sides of their mouth because if they really examined his claims to deity (No man comes to the Father except through me, the same is a thief and a liar etc etc.) (pretty bold claims wouldn't you say? Hard to dimiss or overlook hunh?) they would be forced to say he was either #1 or #2. They have to completely dismiss his repeated and varied claims to state he was a good man or prophet.
The bible tells us that "the path is wide and the gate is narrow, few who enter in". We're getting a good glimpse of that narrow gate here. I'm amazed constantly how many non-believers I come across on a daily basis.
But if there really is some kind of creator, I really hope it isn't Yahweh because he is a savage and flawed deity.
With all due respect, those of us believers who are listening to you say "that's because you suffer from a lack of understanding. A lack of knowledge on the subject." If you were all loving, kind God and wanted to reach out and save as many people as you possibly could, you would make it as easy as possible. He couldn't have made it any easier. You don't even have to do anything except accept the FREE gift of salvation by accepting Christ died for you. How can it get any easier?? Any more loving? Sure he as the architect could have he designed the plan from the beginning with out you having a free will, no ability to choose right or wrong, good or evil. He chose you having a free will was more important than creating you a mindless drone, knowing how many would choose to reject him in advance. But it's all about having a free will. Choosing to find him and love him ...or not.
Yet like any gift, if I buy you a birthday gift and say here is your gift, it is not yours until you reach out and take it for yourself. The gift is only yours once you reach out and take ownership of it. This is how Christianity is separated from every other faith in the world. There is nothing else like it.
Perhaps the best little concise book I've read for solid evidence in belief in God & Christ as the Messiah is http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Faith-that-Makes-Sense/dp/0842305351 However most people don't really want to know the truth. There's that narrow gate again!
montanadave
12-12-11, 06:08
It's Monday morning, gentlemen.
Church let out yesterday. :stop:
Just a Jarhead
12-12-11, 08:06
It's Monday morning, gentlemen.
Church let out yesterday. :stop:
I was 17 in USMC bootcamp in 1977. My Senior Drill Instructor was the baddest M'F@cker I have met, even to this day, and I've known some pretty bad dudes in my life growing up in Philly and in the Corps. Strong, smart, 3 tours of Viet Nam, 0311, Force Recon, Jump, Scuba, Drill Instructor for Drill Instructor school, you name it he did it all. A Marines Marine.
I recently wrote to him & thanked him after 30 years for the strong influence he had on my life as a young lad in many ways. One way was that on Sunday's he would get pissed & yell at those not attending some sort of worship service saying, "you may be on a battle field someday and may need that man upstairs". Up to that point I never had a man in my life that openly talked about God (other than the Catholic School Priests), and here was the baddest Mother F@cker I ever met, a man's man if there ever was one, proud and not ashamed of God in the least and yelling at us for being heathens.
That one small comment & action made a huge influence on my life.
His recent response to my thanking him was emotional to say the least. Staff Sgt.Timothy Soboleski (Sgt. Mjr. retired), any fellow Marines that know him, know the badass he is. if you're reading this Sgt. Mjr....Thanks again!
So you feel that getting 2200 views validates this somehow as being a contribution to this forum?
Me wonders if its "interest" or voyeurism.
Seriously, this thread is so derailed and hyjacked it needs shutting down.
I'm not trying to justify anything. Someone is interested, and to call it voyeurism is to sully the motives of people. Those that control this forum can pull the plug anytime they want, I don't have a problem with that. Now just walk away.
And those are all for a Cloaked UFO near Mercury. . .
:suicide:
Really, I must have missed those posts after the first page. But if you're still interested in the cloaked spaceship post away.
Yes, yes we need to get back on track. Here's my last contribution on the cloaked spaceship subject.....it must be Rommulans or maybe Klingons.
What the heck are you talking about. You are showing your ignorance of science and how it works. They know exactly how planes work and 99% of the time why they don't when they fail.
They also know for the most part how different body chemistries can impact medicines. This is like saying science is fake because it can't cure the common cold, when the cold is a different strain every year.
And yes scientists know the boiling point of water. And they can tell you how adding certain chemicals can change that. Or how pressure/altitude can change it.
The point is that science can't build a perfect plane or medicine or gun, because the scientist's knowledge is never complete and never will be, many scientists admit this. My post has nothing to do with whether science has a reasonable grasp of aerodynamics.
They don't know the exact boiling point of water. Do they have a close, useful boiling point yes. And that has been my point from the beginning. And variables change from scientist to scientist many times because of their bias, since none of us can know for sure that every variable is in play. Scientist pick the variables for an experiment they think best to suit their purposes. Since most of us haven't actually done all the science that scientists do we just many times take it on faith that they know what they are talking about. I just don't take it on faith that evolutionists, and astrophysicists know what their talking about.
And you need multiple experiments because that is how it works. You need to discount variables. Was there an outside unknown that changed the results? Lets do it again to see. A good scientist is open the possibility of being wrong. That is the pretty much whole premise of science. If you can't see the benefit of that then no there isn't much hope you will understand.
Multiple experiments are required because the knowledge gained is never complete. Again my point from the beginning
I honestly don't understand why some on this forum are so opposed to this discussion, politics is ok , but religion is taboo? How about we just call it "What's a person's worldview have to do with life anyway?". Over 90% of this website deals with what's the best doohicky for my AR kind of stuff, some for serious stuff, and some for not so serious stuff, and that's more than good enough me, I enjoy reading that stuff as much as the next guy. But in the end if I'm expected to unite with some group of people for some moral cause, I would like to know what they really believe. General Discussion seems to be that place on this forum.
Just a Jarhead
12-12-11, 12:31
I honestly don't understand why some on this forum are so opposed to this discussion, politics is ok , but religion is taboo? How about we just call it "What's a person's worldview have to do with life anyway?". Over 90% of this website deals with what's the best doohicky for my AR kind of stuff, some for serious stuff, and some for not so serious stuff, and that's more than good enough me, I enjoy reading that stuff as much as the next guy. But in the end if I'm expected to unite with some group of people for some moral cause, I would like to know what they really believe. General Discussion seems to be that place on this forum.
Because it makes them nervous as hell. Because man is still a rebellious creature and remains in rebellion to God. Nothing has changed since the beginning of time. To admit to belief in a God means they would have to submit to someone, something greater than themselves. And that just isn't going to happen for many. They'd rather go down in a blaze of glory. Or better to just ignore the subject all together.
This is a very typical confession of Atheists on their death beds."O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."
In their hearts they know beyond any shadow of doubt that there is a God, heaven, and hell. The bible tells us in many places that God put eternity and the truth into the hearts of men and they cannot get it out. This is why all men will worship something, whether it be the true and living God or some other creature, heavenly object, graven images or man himself as the Atheists/Evolutionists/Humanists do. Even the biggest atheist or non Christians most common curse word is "Jesus-Christ". Ever notice this? This is because in their hearts, subconsciously they know it is the only name in the world that has any meaning.
How do little children know right from wrong not having matured to know God? They lie, cheat, steal cookies etc. and know it is wrong immediately upon doing so, because God put eternity and truth into their hearts, that's why.
Psalms 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
And they'll hate us for even discussing all of this.
Because it makes them nervous as hell. Because man is still a rebellious creature and remains in rebellion to God. Nothing has changed since the beginning of time. To admit to belief in a God means they would have to submit to someone, something greater than themselves. And that just isn't going to happen for many. They'd rather go down in a blaze of glory. Or better to just ignore the subject all together.
This is a very typical confession of Atheists on their death beds."O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul."
In their hearts they know beyond any shadow of doubt that there is a God, heaven, and hell. The bible tells us in many places that God put eternity and the truth into the hearts of men and they cannot get it out. This is why all men will worship something, whether it be the true and living God or some other creature, heavenly object, graven images or man himself as the Atheists/Evolutionists/Humanists do. Even the biggest atheist or non Christians most common curse word is "Jesus-Christ". Ever notice this? This is because in their hearts, subconsciously they know it is the only name in the world that has any meaning.
How do little children know right from wrong not having matured to know God? They lie, cheat, steal cookies etc. and know it is wrong immediately upon doing so, because God put eternity and truth into their hearts, that's why.
Psalms 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
And they'll hate us for even discussing all of this.
Thank you. I must admit I was holding back on the points you have here. It's pointed, and true, and I agree.
How do little children know right from wrong not having matured to know God? They lie, cheat, steal cookies etc. and know it is wrong immediately upon doing so, because God put eternity and truth into their hearts, that's why.
So how did society survive for thousands of years before the idea of the Christian god came about? How about cultures that don't practice Christianity? They all get along just fine and known that lying, stealing, etc is bad.
Just a Jarhead gave the answer. The Bible teaches that the law of God is written on the hearts of men to one degree or another. All men know innately that murder etc. is wrong. The conscience of man bares witness to this, but man can not even live up to what his conscience tells him, let alone the perfection that God requires (Romans ch2).
The Bible teaches that the God of the Bible has been there from the beginning, but men suppress that truth in unrighteousness.
The history of man shows from the beginning to now year after year of war, and destruction, etc. and not getting along at all or not very well, not only on a national level, but also on a personal level. True liberty has been the exception rather that the rule, even in our own nation tyranny knocks at the door year after year.
So how did society survive for thousands of years before the idea of the Christian god came about? How about cultures that don't practice Christianity? They all get along just fine and known that lying, stealing, etc is bad.
the idea of God would be when some tribe somewhere thinks WOW this creation must be by some greater being ?
on the people are good to each other ? UMMM look at history again
yeah the Romans were just such wonderful people to their neighbors :) they reached out a olive branch to all
and the Persians were also lovely people embracing their neighbors !!
the Mayans a great bunch of people never hurt anyone not even their own !
the pyramids were built by volunteers :) happy people
American Indians were one big happy family never fighting amongst other groups
actually look at many early or tribal cultures cut off their idea of compassion etc... is not nearly the same as ours especially toward people outside of their own tribe
again man has always fought with each other before the idea of Christ is not as known ? but in the cultures we do know many were quite brutal and the Christian ones were often better toward others but far from perfect cause again man is far from perfect and man has always struggled with power issues
but the US being based on this Judeo Christian beliefs has done more than any country for others in history that is proof enough
the idea of God would be when some tribe somewhere thinks WOW this creation must be by some greater being ?
No that is not the idea of god. At least not the Christian God.
on the people are good to each other ? UMMM look at history again
yeah the Romans were just such wonderful people to their neighbors :) they reached out a olive branch to all
Nope but at least they didn't burn people at the stake.
and the Persians were also lovely people embracing their neighbors !!
the Mayans a great bunch of people never hurt anyone not even their own !
So true. They also didn't cause the dark ages and treat technology and science like the hand of the devil.
the pyramids were built by volunteers :) happy people
Slavery that continues to be condoned in the bible to this day and by most "Christians" till the 1800s.
American Indians were one big happy family never fighting amongst other groups
Till they were almost wiped out by... You guessed it Christians.
actually look at many early or tribal cultures cut off their idea of compassion etc... is not nearly the same as ours especially toward people outside of their own tribe
And Christian Ideals in the bible are very different than they are now. Hell Christians today can't even agree on what they believe.
again man has always fought with each other before the idea of Christ is not as known ?
Yep there has always been war. I never claimed otherwise. I said that things didn't suddenly change under Christianity. Although I guess technically that is not true. If anything they got worse. The world of the Abrahamic God has been used for the justification to kill more people than all other wars combined.
but in the cultures we do know many were quite brutal and the Christian ones were often better toward others but far from perfect cause again man is far from perfect and man has always struggled with power issues
See above. If anything it got worse. The crusades, Islamic Terrorism, the Inquisition. All in the name of the same deity.
but the US being based on this Judeo Christian beliefs has done more than any country for others in history that is proof enough
Except we are not. If we were based on Christian Ideals we would be a christian country. However we are not one. And the words of our founding fathers back up that we are not.
Yeah...
Reagans Rascals
12-12-11, 19:00
the issue with religion comes with being indoctrinated from the time of birth.
How can you make your own decisions, as a competent adult, when you have been raised from birth to be believe in a very specific thing, in a very specific way.
How can you decide which political party is best suited for you, if you were raised around a staunch democrat, who filled your brain with it from the time of your conception, you will be a democrat.
The same goes with religion. If you are raised around uber christian parents, Sunday school, bible study, baptism, confirmation, communion, church every Wednesday and Sunday, you are going to be uber religious as well, having never even had the ability to question what you believe, or even if its an organic belief of your own or if its just mimicking that of your parents.
Having religion is fine and dandy if that's your cup of tea..... but raising your children into it right from their birth is ridiculous..... would it not be better to raise a child to be good hearted and in the end let them make their own decision, when they have the cognitive, unbiased ability to do so?
Would Rudy have been so dead set on going to Notre Dame if it hadn't have been such a big deal to his father?.... I think not
Kwelz those are your thoughts ?
Many do say people look to the heavens knowing that something greater than them created this that is God ?
Maybe not what you want to hear but many Christians feel this is true ?
Slavery still alive and well in non Christian countries at least we learned and we US Christian people were not the only ones doing this live in the Caribbean talk to the blacks down their whole other view than what US kids were brought up with !
They hate the Spanish a lot of their ships were used and they treated them worse than whites they say they hate some other blacks for selling their own out and some whites that treated people bad but they say some treated us good and why we live on the same island with them today !
And they don't go around with a chip on their shoulder over it ! In their words the black USA folks need to get over it realize how good they have it and the opportunities they have !
Yeah a few were burnt at the stake sadly but again burned or stoned to death or set on fire by other means or other ways of being killed still goes on to this day in non Christian countries !
Look at Muslim countries they still butcher and kill people all the time for silly things
The constitution is based on Jude's Christian values but the country has freedom of religion
They knew rights came from God and not gov most of the men were Christians again basing on does not mean you have to be a Christian or it was the religion of the country
kaiservontexas
12-13-11, 00:56
So it is an optical illusion right? Seriously, a death star sized ship would be pretty neat, but I doubt it is what some say it is . . .
Apologetics is not this forums strong suit.
Please tell us of your search for truth in determining whether or not God exist? It's clearly evident you've read all the anti-god and science books. Have you read or studied and pro- GOD related books at all Steyr? I'll take a wild guess and say the bible was probably not one of them. You can look for gold all day long but unless you look and search in the right spot, you're going to dig until you hit china and come up empty handed. Many of you are looking in all the wrong spots!
Actually, like most people I once simply assumed there was a God, and in my mind that was the Judeo Christian God. Like many I picked up my doubts about this or that along the way, but what really sealed the deal was when I actually read the entire Bible.
Also I haven't determined God doesn't exist, that is why I'm agnostic and not atheist. Lacking any real evidence one could hardly say there is no God. And personally it would be rather nice if there was a plan and something did happen after you die, but that takes quite a bit of faith as there is no evidence so I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket.
But if there is a creator, I really don't think it is going to be Yahweh and I'd be very disappointed to discover that to be the case.
Because it makes them nervous as hell. Because man is still a rebellious creature and remains in rebellion to God.
And they'll hate us for even discussing all of this.
Oh for ****s sake.
Start a SERIOUS POST about how the Greek Gods real and you will get the same dismissive answers. And it isn't because we are scared as hell of Zues and Apollo and it isn't because we are in rebellion about Mt. Olympus.
You genuinely believe all this stuff. Wonderful. Go with God, I'm personally happy for you and I suspect you have great piece of mind. I wish I actually believed "for sure" that something happened after death, just ONE PROBLEM...I don't believe that.
So "at best" all I could be is a false believer and according to your religion that gets me nothing. And IF there really is a God, and he is all knowing then he knows what I would need to buy into this stuff. Hasn't happened yet, Gods plan or he isn't there...doesn't matter - same result.
But can you please stop making assumptions about my beliefs and motivations. It's insulting. If you want to know just ask, I'll tell you. Not everyone thinks like you, for some of us God is about as relevant to our daily lives and core beliefs as the Easter Bunny.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 01:49
So it is an optical illusion right? Seriously, a death star sized ship would be pretty neat, but I doubt it is what some say it is . . .
Apologetics is not this forums strong suit.
time lapse photograph, what you are seeing is a gap where Mercury was at the beginning.
They layered multiple photos together and this is what occurs when objects move, and that movement isn't taken into consideration when they layer photos.
Naval Research Lab and the Naval Observatory proved it.
Moose-Knuckle
12-13-11, 03:20
I honestly don't understand why some on this forum are so opposed to this discussion, politics is ok , but religion is taboo?
Who said it was taboo?
M4C mods usually keep threads on track or deep six theme all together. Why this one has not been locked by now is beyond comprehension. If you who want to debate your religious beliefs or the lack thereof then by all means start a thread specific to the subject matter and let the phallus measuring commence.
Just a Jarhead
12-13-11, 03:22
Oh for ****s sake.
Start a SERIOUS POST about how the Greek Gods real and you will get the same dismissive answers. And it isn't because we are scared as hell of Zues and Apollo and it isn't because we are in rebellion about Mt. Olympus.
You genuinely believe all this stuff. Wonderful. Go with God, I'm personally happy for you and I suspect you have great piece of mind. I wish I actually believed "for sure" that something happened after death, just ONE PROBLEM...I don't believe that.
So "at best" all I could be is a false believer and according to your religion that gets me nothing. And IF there really is a God, and he is all knowing then he knows what I would need to buy into this stuff. Hasn't happened yet, Gods plan or he isn't there...doesn't matter - same result.
But can you please stop making assumptions about my beliefs and motivations. It's insulting. If you want to know just ask, I'll tell you. Not everyone thinks like you, for some of us God is about as relevant to our daily lives and core beliefs as the Easter Bunny.
Since you're content to go through life, live & die (at any moment) in the world not exactly knowing what you believe or don't believe (you stated you're agnostic), I will respect your right to such and your position. You have a "free will". Personally, I would be tormented & I could not go through life this way but to each their own. Seems some of us develop a quest for truth and some could care less if they ever find it. Maybe that's just predestination. (of course there's ground in the middle too). Sounds like you've done some searching, you still have MAJOR unresolved questions since your agnostic and don't know what you believe. Your search is far from done. But it sounds as if you quit. Maybe you just were't ready yet.
At one point, many years ago, I threw out everything I had been taught and started my search over again. I wanted to know the truth. Was there even any truth to be found? Was I brainwashed or was all I was taught true? I was amazed what I found and my search didn't start with Christianity. I'm thankful someone pointed me in the right direction to search. I was initially digging for gold in the wrong spot. Most of what I know today my Catholic schooling never taught me. (I will add there is much I disagree with Catholicism about. Just as Martin Luther did. Just as when Guttenberg created the printing press and people were able to read the bible for the first time themselves. I'm not bashing Catholocism, I'm just saying it doesn't always square with the bible completely.) But my search ended with Christianity once I rediscovered what it was all about. I couldn't stop searching until the issues were resolved.
If you ever decide to search for some concrete truth in your life here's an interesting website. http://www.godandscience.org/ The bible tells us "seek and ye shall find", knock and it will be opened". Desire knowledge and truth like a man in the desert desires water. You will be floored how the door is opened and what your eyes will see once you truly begin to seek. I remember getting on my hands & knees in my family room, utterly confused at all the religions of the world to choose from. All, if not most diametrically opposed to each others teachings. A tear in my eye begging (praying) for truth. I desired truth badly. I didn't knock, I kicked the door in and demanded answers! Problem is most people don't truly seek answers, and never knock until they're facing a grave illness or on a battlefield or some other life altering calamity. That's just the nature of man. They certainly don't desire truth & knowledge like a man in the desert craves water. They could care less. I for one am not surprised they're eternally separated from God for eternity. If you don't care about your soul why should he? He's the perfect gentleman and won't intrude in your life. He'll wait for you to invite him in.
Eternity is a long time my friend and if the decisions we make here and now affect our eternal destiny (and they do, although you and many others agnostics & atheists just don't know it yet), it might not be a bad idea to stop living in limbo (as an agnostic) and do some searching until we have concrete answers, one way or the other. Death could come knocking for you or me today. At which point our fates are sealed for eternity. But it's your life and you're free to live (and die) as you decide. There's that free will thing again. Me & others just try to warn and open your eyes. Not out of hate, but out of love. We're not just tryng to "prove" we're right. You finding, or not finding truth has absolutely no bearing on my life. But nothing would make us happier than for you to find what we have. Truth & inner peace. That's the only reason we share our stories and what we have come to know.
Also as I mentioned on the previous page this book ($4.99) really hits the subject head on asking all the obvious and not so obvious questions we all go through. I can tell you I have read many books and this little book is perhaps the best single book I've read. http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Faith-that-Makes-Sense/dp/0842305351/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323767846&sr=1-2
No hard feelings, I wish you well and nothing but good!
montanadave
12-13-11, 06:45
Not everyone thinks like you, for some of us God is about as relevant to our daily lives and core beliefs as the Easter Bunny.
Now just a goddamned minute! :stop:
I can put up with sanctimonious bible-beaters and godless atheists and just about everything in between, but I gotta draw the line when folks start talking smack about the Easter Bunny! :nono:
What's next? Santa Claus? :shout:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel we have crossed a dangerous line.
VooDoo6Actual
12-13-11, 07:07
shame, not even the "Tooth Fairy" made the grade...
Who said it was taboo?
M4C mods usually keep threads on track or deep six theme all together. Why this one has not been locked by now is beyond comprehension. If you who want to debate your religious beliefs or the lack thereof then by all means start a thread specific to the subject matter and let the phallus measuring commence.
There were posts by some who indicated such, that this was somehow an unacceptable thread drift, and let's get back to the serious subject of cloaked spaceships so let's get off this religion subject. I made a tongue in cheek comment at the beginning, but others took exception to the implications, and so the thread changed, IMO for the better. Some recommended a stop to this because it would divide us, the sad truth is that Americans have always been severely divided for a whole host of reasons, and unity is tenuous at best. And then there are those that equate this discussion about why, what, and the consequences of our beliefs, a serious discussion I believe, to phallus measuring, it's all just a big waste of time, and I just have to tell you because I love you so much, or some other pure motive no doubt.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 10:46
There were posts by some who indicated such, that this was somehow an unacceptable thread drift, and let's get back to the serious subject of cloaked spaceships so let's get off this religion subject. I made a tongue in cheek comment at the beginning, but others took exception to the implications, and so the thread changed, IMO for the better. Some recommended a stop to this because it would divide us, the sad truth is that Americans have always been severely divided for a whole host of reasons, and unity is tenuous at best. And then there are those that equate this discussion about why, what, and the consequences of our beliefs, a serious discussion I believe, to phallus measuring, it's all just a big waste of time, and I just have to tell you because I love you so much, or some other pure motive no doubt.
I believe the correct word would be humans... not simply Americans
Humans in general have more than struggled with the concepts of unity, simply because we are subject to uncontrollable emotions, and not just logical thinking.
hence the reasons for the way most good hearted endeavors have transpired, such as socialism.... which in theory is a blessed thing... however in practice its not so easily attained.
If you were put in charge of making an "unbiased" list of those who will get a new apartment currently being built, and there is a limited amount, with a 3 year wait.... and it is going to be a brutal winter.... would you not abuse your power and put the names of your family and friends at the top of that list?.... of course you would... and anyone who says they would not is a bullshit liar.... and thus lies the fallacy of "unbiased governing"
I don't have a problem with that, humanity it is.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 10:57
I don't have a problem with that, humanity it is.
well we all finally agree on something..... this is start we needed
also, not to provide the "enemy" so to speak... with exculpatory evidence... I believe this would be of some use throughout your future conversations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
There is debate within my tradition (Reformed) as to the usefulness of Pascal's Wager in apologetics. It seems to me that it might be an argument that pulls on the emotions too much, I'm not sure. For me this discussion was about what our first principle consist of, and implications, and consequences resulting. I usually don't try to prove that God exists, because I believe people already know that He does, and I know you don't believe this. My fundamental axiom is "the Bible is true", from this I can build a complete (informing every sphere of life, ethics, politics, personal) world view. My hope for this thread, is that you would do, or have done, the same for your fundamental axiom of atheism.
Also in regards to Pascal's Wager, Sunday night I sat down to think about my motives for engaging in this discussion. Am I just trying to win an argument, or do I really care about what happens to you. Since I am a sinner I'm never quite sure. I believe there is the most profound loss for the man who rejects Christ, exchanging Him for the most profound emptiness of the grave. Man seems to desperately seek an utopia on earth, but it recedes ever farther into an endless horizon.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 11:36
There is debate within my tradition (Reformed) as to the usefulness of Pascal's Wager in apologetics. It seems to me that it might be an argument that pulls on the emotions too much, I'm not sure. For me this discussion was about what our first principle consist of, and implications, and consequences resulting. I usually don't try to prove that God exists, because I believe people already know that He does, and I know you don't believe this. My fundamental axiom is "the Bible is true", from this I can build a complete (informing every sphere of life, ethics, politics, personal) world view. My hope for this thread, is that you would do, or have done, the same for your fundamental axiom of atheism.
My belief is somewhat opposite of you. I believe there is something greater than myself, now whether or not that is an omnipotent being I don't know.
I am here, that is a fact, so therefore that proves beyond all doubt that there is something else out there, some missing piece of the puzzle, something that created me. My being is tangible evidence of this, so therefore yes I do believe in a god-like figure.
However; I do not believe in things such as the bible because once again they were written by man, regardless of those who try and say otherwise, man wrote it down in the very least. Man is subject to fall, and therefore the fragility of mans psyche, coupled with the way things have transpired (things removed from the bible, certain dates chosen to help other "non-believers" transition to Christianity, certain things chosen to be forgotten by the church, and other issue of the like) have made me view texts such as the bible, and stories of people like Jesus, as unnecessary, as to their validity cannot be deciphered due to no real chain of custody along the way....
As in, the bible has come from so many sources, involving so many people, and so many years, that to me personally, it is not reliable.
So therefore, I have simply chosen to cut out the middleman/middlemen and simply just be a good person, do whats right, believe that there is something greater than myself, and try not to subscribe to anything that came from man.....
I can write an instruction booklet for a microwave.... and by the time its been passed on by word of mouth, through 30 languages, and billions of people, I'm sure it won't simply tell you how to make popcorn or set the clock.... thus the issue with things like the bible.... too many people... no chain of custody....
and I've never considered myself an atheist.... I am a realist.... they say there are no atheists in a foxhole... but that works both ways... for you and your foe will both be praying.... but someone has to lose.....
when tragedies occur , they say we cannot blame god, when miracles occur, they say we should praise the lord... .how can it work both ways?
If a child dies before he is baptized, based on cut and dry text, he would not be allowed into heaven, but most would say well god would know and let him in, how can it be yes and no and little of some.... its yes or no... or then there is no clear cut set NO... so in that case why would he not make exceptions to homosexuals or those that commit a cardinal sin?
If no sin is greater than the other.... then we are all the same... so therefor we cannot cast judgement on others for being gay or having an abortion or choosing a different life style because we have all sinned... and in that case... we are all subject to the same judgement
CarlosDJackal
12-13-11, 11:46
How anyone could be so convinced that what they are seeing in this video is a "cloaked" UFO is beyond me. Could it be a UFO? Who the hell knows.
But the fact that this idiot commenting on this video is convinced that one shape is such is about as dumb as those morons who are convinced that Sasquatches hunt a particular type of game in a particular manner even though they or anyone else have never observed them to do so.
I'm not saying that there aren't such things as Sasquatches or UFOs. I'm just pointing out how so-called Scientists tend to believe what they see with minimal evidence just because they want to believe but are willing to dispel others even in the face of quantitative evidence (IE: the effect of suppressing the RKBA on crime).
ADDED: As for the religious arguments above, there are things of this world that we mere mortals have not and probably can never explain or put into mathematical equations. I have found the biggest frustrations with atheists and agnostics is the fact that some of us still believe in God and have FAITH that he has allowed us humans to practice free will. I have had enough of my prayers answered that there is absolutely nothing that anyone can ever say to convince me otherwise. I personally don't care if you do not believe of believe in another way as long as you do not try to force your way on me or those like me. Banning us from being able to read the Bible on school grounds or taking offense when we say "Merry Christmas" or "May God Bless" is just that. When someone wishes me a "Happy Hanukkah" or blesses me "in the name of Buddha"; I cannot see how I should take that as an insult.
Now if you were to insist that I should take Allah as my "master" or thank him for all my blessings; I'll tell you to kiss my ass. JM2CW.
Rascals,
While I agree with some of what you posted, I'd like to point out that the Bible isn't an instruction booklet and shouldn't be read as such.
It's a guideline, in my opinion of course. I've read the bible a few times and each time, it meant something different to me based on where I was in my life at the time.
For the most part, boiled down, at least for me, it says "Don't suck at being nice".
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 11:56
Rascals,
While I agree with some of what you posted, I'd like to point out that the Bible isn't an instruction booklet and shouldn't be read as such.
It's a guideline, in my opinion of course. I've read the bible a few times and each time, it meant something different to me based on where I was in my life at the time.
For the most part, boiled down, at least for me, it says "Don't suck at being nice".
And I completely agree with you, when the Bible is viewed a collection of anecdotes and positive "suggestions" on how to live a decent life, then yes it is more than a valuable tool. Almost like a "Chicken Soup for the Soul" type of book.
However, for most it is not viewed liked that, it is viewed as the ultimate be-all/end-all as to how we are COMMANDED to live our lives. And anyone who does not follow it, is subject to the most brutal of eternal outcomes.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 12:06
Banning us from being able to read the Bible on school grounds or taking offense when we say "Merry Christmas" or "May God Bless" is just that. When someone wishes me a "Happy Hanukkah" or blesses me "in the name of Buddha"; I cannot see how I should take that as an insult.
Now if you were to insist that I should take Allah as my "master" or thank him for all my blessings; I'll tell you to kiss my ass. JM2CW.
I completely agree with you, 100%.
I may not have the same belief structure as you, or anyone else, but you should be free to do whatever you like, if thats prayer in school then so be it, if that's reading a religious text in public then so be it, if that's burning the religious text of someone else's faith then so be it, but when it becomes forcing of one specific faith on others, that's where the line is.
As well as blowing yourself up in the middle of an outside market.
All or none, not some of one and little of another. All or none. There should be no Mosque by ground zero, just as there should be no synagogue or church. It should be a place free of that, because of so many different people and faiths, that lost their lives there, on that day.... became united based on more than their chosen faiths.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 12:18
I believe there is the most profound loss for the man who rejects Christ, exchanging Him for the most profound emptiness of the grave. Man seems to desperately seek an utopia on earth, but it recedes ever farther into an endless horizon.
This is my main issue.
There are countless religions, many of which are thousands of years older than Christianity.
All say do this, or don't do that, believe in this or this will happen, act this way or this will happen.
Throughout the world, Christians only make up 25-33% of the worlds population..... so what happens to the other 66-75% of the worlds inhabitants? They just got it wrong? So too bad for them? Even if they were generally good hearted people, who offered help to all those that needed it? Simply because they did not believe in Christ?
What if their god, by another name, is the same as the Christ?
So, because of all of this disparity, I have chosen to cut out all of the believe in this person, or pray to this person, and have simply chosen to be a good person, cut through all of the crap, and go straight to the man in charge.
Why would I be refused entrance to heaven, if there is indeed one, simply because I believed in god, was a good person, and helped others, but I didn't believe in his son Jesus?
Isn't god himself the end result, not Jesus? Jesus is a means to an end..." no one shall get to the father but through me"
Why can't I just believe in the father? And leave all the rest behind.....
Since you're content to go through life, live & die (at any moment) in the world not exactly knowing what you believe or don't believe (you stated you're agnostic), I will respect your right to such and your position. You have a "free will". Personally, I would be tormented & I could not go through life this way but to each their own. Seems some of us develop a quest for truth and some could care less if they ever find it. Maybe that's just predestination. (of course there's ground in the middle too). Sounds like you've done some searching, you still have MAJOR unresolved questions since your agnostic and don't know what you believe. Your search is far from done. But it sounds as if you quit. Maybe you just were't ready yet.
No hard feelings, I wish you well and nothing but good!
Actually it's more like this.
There are the things I believe. There are the things I know for sure. I recognize that many of the things I believe we don't know for sure.
I find it completely likely that all religions are the invention of man, we live, we die and then cease to exist at all. Based upon that belief I try and live my life with as much meaning as possible because I do not believe there will be another one.
But, while that is what I believe, I know we don't know for sure. And I'm not gonna present belief as fact simply because it seems most likely to me.
Eternity is a long time my friend and if the decisions we make here and now affect our eternal destiny
Honestly if I die today, if some supreme being finds me unworthy because I didn't worship him properly, well that will be that. You run exactly the same risk should you ever find yourself facing Amaterasu, Amun, etc.
That will be my fate same as not being born higher, not cultivating powerful connections and all the other things which have influenced my life from time to time.
But should I find myself in Hell, it will be Heaven. It will mean we do go on, there is a meaning and many of the people I love (who I care about far more than myself) won't actually be dead and gone. But while that is a nice thought, it seems very unlikely.
And while it's supposedly really hot I won't have nerve endings because I won't have a body so I shouldn't feel it too much. Can't be much worse than FL in the summer.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 12:35
And while it's supposedly really hot I won't have nerve endings because I won't have a body so I shouldn't feel it too much. Can't be much worse than FL in the summer.
Touche`salesman... I too have an Uncle
Just a Jarhead
12-13-11, 13:01
However; I do not believe in things such as the bible because once again they were written by man, regardless of those who try and say otherwise, man wrote it down in the very least. Man is subject to fall, and therefore the fragility of mans psyche, coupled with the way things have transpired (things removed from the bible, certain dates chosen to help other "non-believers" transition to Christianity, certain things chosen to be forgotten by the church, and other issue of the like) have made me view texts such as the bible, and stories of people like Jesus, as unnecessary, as to their validity cannot be deciphered due to no real chain of custody along the way....
I believe God created the universe and everything in it. Therefore, it would be absolutely foolish and ludicrous of me to think that this supreme being could create the universe yet lacked the power to provide an instructional manual exactly as he wanted it. That he lacked the power to inspire approx 40 men to to get it exactly right? Even Sony provides a Users Manual. Would not a loving, all knowing, all powerful God who can hang stars in the sky be capable and provide his creation a User Manual? It would defy logic to think not. If there is a God, I have to believe he would not just plop us down here to flounder and figure it all out on our own. Even you and I are more loving, considerate and more kind than that. And God is all loving, all kind, all knowing.
As in, the bible has come from so many sources, involving so many people, and so many years, that to me personally, it is not reliable.
This actually solidifies that it is a miraculous book. Here's a good explanation. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html
So therefore, I have simply chosen to cut out the middleman/middlemen and simply just be a good person, do whats right, believe that there is something greater than myself, and try not to subscribe to anything that came from man.....
Does this mean you’re good as compared to Jeffrey Dahmer or Hitler or , or that you don’t take paper clips or pens from your place of employment, or that you’ve never held onto angry feelings towards another, had sex outside of marriage or lusted after nearly every attractive female you encounter 100x's a day on a daily basis like most men? The definition of “good” is a relevant term apart from the Bible where God’s absolute standards are defined. He's perfect. Therein is the dilemma. In order for us to see our standard as lacking we must be willing to consider there is a higher standard, a perfect standard, God’s standard. We're all bad and sinners using God's standard. God is perfect and cannot look at sin. and all men have sinned. Therefore the need for an intercessor became necessary to bridge the gap between God & man. God provided that lovingly through his son...Jesus. This explanation could go on for pages but that's the jist of it. Actually soem of the hardest to convince they need a savior are the cleanest of living. They see no need for one. It's often some of the worst sinners who readily recognize thee need and are the most thankful. That's why the bible tells us we'll be surprised who made it to heaven and who didn't. The sweet little old lady next door or the repenting prostitute.
when tragedies occur , they say we cannot blame god, when miracles occur, they say we should praise the lord... .how can it work both ways? Most of this can be explained by free will. God gave it to you just as he did the murderer. He has a free will to commit murder & sin. He will not intervene in the murderers free will just as he won't yours. He won't interfere in the teenager getting drunk and getting killed hitting a tree and killing himself etc. He doesn't cause war or sickness or disease but he allows it to happen. It is in these circumstances that most people begin to seek him. As you said more men have come to know God on a battlefield than anywhere else. When we have a pocket full of money and things are going our way we have no need for him for the most part. The nature of man. Also God is much more concerned about the eternal destiny of yoru soul than your physical body.
If a child dies before he is baptized, based on cut and dry text, he would not be allowed into heaven, but most would say well god would know and let him in, how can it be yes and no and little of some.... its yes or no... or then there is no clear cut set NO... so in that case why would he not make exceptions to homosexuals or those that commit a cardinal sin?First, there is no incident of infant baptism in the bible. Not one. That's a Catholic thing. The bible says one is to be a believer first, then baptized. A person proclaimed Christ as their savior then they were baptized announcing to the world their new life in Christ. ow can an infant proclaim anything? They can't. Catholocism believes the pouring of water over a baby's head has some miracle powers. They then have the child reaffirm this at their confirmation around 7-8 years old. Really still too young to know what's going on and what you believe IMHO. Only one thing saves someone from eternal damnation and that is accepting Christ as your savior. That said, God is a righteous God. All loving. He will judge us on what we know or were exposed to. Not what we don't know or never were exposed to. Condemning an infant or child? That wouldn't be a loving God no would it?
If no sin is greater than the other.... then we are all the same... so therefor we cannot cast judgement on others for being gay or having an abortion or choosing a different life style because we have all sinned... and in that case... we are all subject to the same judgementYou're exactly right. We're all sinners & without a savior we're f@cked. It's not that we're judging. God has already judged all of these acts saying they are sinful, an abomination etc etc. We just say what God has already judged. The reason Christians believe abortion is murder because the bible says "the life is in the blood". When there is blood there is life. http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/08-0005.htm
This is too long to explain but like it or not, understand it or not, when man sinned he required a sacrifice, the shedding of blood from a lamb or bull. Christ became the ultimate sacrificial lamb shedding his blood once and for all.
These are abbreviated answers. Each one could take pages.
Reagans Rascals
12-13-11, 13:09
Were Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, Gacy, so on and so on, sick? Did they have some type of physical ailment to make them not of sound mind?
If so, how could they be held accountable for what they did, is it not reasonable to assume that Mr. Dahmer and Mr. Hitler, could very well be in "heaven" right now, soaking it up?
and none of those answers, explains what happens to the other 66-75% of people that do not believe in a Christian god.
And explain, how I personally, me as an individual, was born into sin. I think that if god really didn't plan on Adam eating the fruit and fornicating, he wouldn't have given the man an apple, a boner, and smokin hot broad hangin around his pad all day..... he simply would not have made any of it. The mere fact that he made those things, shows he already knew the outcome. And if the argument is, he made the "tree of knowledge" and gave man "free will" to test him, he already knew the answer... you know... because he is omnipotent and knows whats gonna happen and all that....so therefore.... all of this was already predestined, and therefore, no sacrifice is necessary because I did not decide to be born into sin, of my own free will, it was thrust upon me, by my dads balls and moms snatch.... so therefore.... I don't require anything in terms of a savior because God put me here.... and therefore he owes me a pass if I was truly "born into sin"
or does he just like getting a pat on the back?
If I build a race car... and sell that car to you, and you end up winning every race you compete in... I cannot take credit for winning those races simply because I built the car with which you won them. That is some type of backwards, vicarious tagalong logic. You won the races of your own "free will," therefore any ups and downs you face are yours and yours alone.
And if heaven truly exists, a world with unlimited happiness, where you'll never shed a tear and all of your dreams will have come true... whats the point of trying in this life? Why go to college or get a job or have kids? Why buy cars or watch football or collect guns? Shouldn't we just be in a hurry to get this shit over with to get to the good stuff? Considering most of us will never reach their ultimate goals and dreams, here in this life.... if we're going to get that G650 jet in the afterlife whats the point in becoming that big CEO and working my ass off to get one here in this life? We could just as easily just work at Waffle House for the rest of our lives, comforted by the fact that none of this shit matters, and the good stuff is coming...
unless what you're getting at is:
God is hosting the "after party" back at his place.... we're all invited.... but we still gotta pay a cover to his kid at the door
Born and raised Catholic, Latin masses, Catechism, the whole nine yards, but I've had my faith shaken at times, but even with all the ups and downs in my life... a bumper sticker I saw one time really brought it all together for me. It said...
"If you don't believe in God, you'd better pray you're right!"
Anyways, back to the "Genesis" of this diversion... Science and religion can be reconciled. It's just not most peoples preferred method.
Just a Jarhead
12-13-11, 16:04
Were Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, Gacy, so on and so on, sick? Did they have some type of physical ailment to make them not of sound mind?
If so, how could they be held accountable for what they did, is it not reasonable to assume that Mr. Dahmer and Mr. Hitler, could very well be in "heaven" right now, soaking it up?Anything is possible. Especially in Dahmers case. He was one sick puppy. But then again there is a thing called evilcaused by Lucifer/Satan. I'm inclined to suggest say Hitler was pure evil to the point of being a madman. Ted Bundy who raped and killed women said his all started with pornography. He said if you wanted to stop men like him, find a way to eminate porn. So he wasn't so much crazy as consumed with temptation & evil. We're responsible for succumbing to temptation and even letting it fester to that point I would imagine. But none of us knows their heart, mind and how God judged them in the end.
and none of those answers, explains what happens to the other 66-75% of people that do not believe in a Christian god. I think this explanation explains my views best and for the sake of space http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html
Based on my understanding of the bible, I believe God judges on what we know and have been exposed to. Not what we have never heard. So if someone hasn't been exposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ then I'm sure God will judge them righteously. But for those who have heard it and rejected it..they're gonna burn baby burn! I equate to if jumped on a genade to save my fellow soldiers and gave my life for them and they trivialized or rejected my act how would my parents feel about them. Except I didn't leave the eternal bliss of heaven to come down to sin infested earth be persecuted, spit on, stuck with a spear and hung on a cross to bleed out an agonizing death. I think it shows a condition of the heart, a total lack of thankfulness and appreciation for his unbelievable unselfish loving act and an arrogance to not think any of us need a savior. Obviously God doesn't take too kindly to rejecting his son. The bible is full of warnings.More importantly it is how sin is atoned for. Sin requires a life. If you don't accept his sons death as bridging the gap between you and Gap, what will bridge it? Nothing.
And explain, how I personally, me as an individual, was born into sin. I think that if god really didn't plan on Adam eating the fruit and fornicating, he wouldn't have given the man an apple, a boner, and smokin hot broad hangin around his pad all day..... he simply would not have made any of it. The mere fact that he made those things, shows he already knew the outcome. And if the argument is, he made the "tree of knowledge" and gave man "free will" to test him, he already knew the answer... you know... because he is omnipotent and knows whats gonna happen and all that....so therefore.... all of this was already predestined, and therefore, no sacrifice is necessary because I did not decide to be born into sin, of my own free will, it was thrust upon me, by my dads balls and moms snatch.... so therefore.... I don't require anything in terms of a savior because God put me here.... and therefore he owes me a pass if I was truly "born into sin" or does he just like getting a pat on the back?
First, God is omniotent as you've stated. He knows the end from the beginning. His plan to send his son to die and pay for our sins was in place from the beginning. We sin everyday, mutiple times a day. To us it's no big deal. However to God in his perfection, any sin is so aggregious the only way to cover it is with a life that is sacrificed. It's hard for us to fully comprehend how ugly sin is to God since we do iton a daily basis. Sin also thwarted God's plan temporarily. His plan was for us to live in the garden of eden and him fellowhip with us.
And yes, it comes down to free will. But it wasn't to test mankind as you suggest at all. God knew by giving us a free will many/most people would reject him. But he knew some of us would seek him out and come to know him and ultimatley love him. It gives no parent joy to have a toy doll sit on their lap, pull the cord in the back and listen to the doll in it's imitation human voice say "I love you". But have a child sit on that parents lap, look up at them with those innocent eyes and on their own say "I love you mommy", or "I love you daddy" and you know they really mean it. Every parent melts. It makes all the pain in the ass of parenting worth it. He didn't want mindless robots hence the necessity of a free will. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.
As far as you being born into sin, Adams fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature being passed to his descendents. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ," (Rom. 5:12).
But in Rom 5:18 it continues "Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. And it really doesn't matter if you were born into sin because the moment you got old enough to sin you were there sinning like a champ like the rest of us. You're as guilty as Adam. Every one of us are. That beguiling Satan! We're all his prey.
If I build a race car... and sell that car to you, and you end up winning every race you compete in... I cannot take credit for winning those races simply because I built the car with which you won them. That is some type of backwards, vicarious tagalong logic. You won the races of your own "free will," therefore any ups and downs you face are yours and yours alone.
And if heaven truly exists, a world with unlimited happiness, where you'll never shed a tear and all of your dreams will have come true... whats the point of trying in this life? Why go to college or get a job or have kids? Why buy cars or watch football or collect guns? Shouldn't we just be in a hurry to get this shit over with to get to the good stuff? Considering most of us will never reach their ultimate goals and dreams, here in this life.... if we're going to get that G650 jet in the afterlife whats the point in becoming that big CEO and working my ass off to get one here in this life? We could just as easily just work at Waffle House for the rest of our lives, comforted by the fact that none of this shit matters, and the good stuff is coming...I'm convinced that is precisely why we're not told more about heaven then we have been. We'd all be jumping in front of busses to get there quickly. You've really managed to trivialize the afterlife here..LOL. Life shouldn't be about how much material items you can collect anyhow. It's really not " he who has the most toys wins". And you should working hard and wanting nice things and trying to achieve your maximum potential, so long as your material items don't become your god. I wouldn't plan on getting that G650 in the afterlife though. Life is a journey. We all have much to learn. Some more than others. It takes some longer than others as well. Some of you guys outta be thankful as hell you've gotten as long as you have because it looks like it may take some time for you to get it..LOL. Here's a perspective on what heaven may be like I find interestinghttp://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/heaven.html
*****
Ted Bundy who raped and killed women said his all started with pornography. He said if you wanted to stop men like him, find a way to eminate porn.
So how does one explain all the murder and rapes that existed before modern media and porn? Or do you blame cave drawings of hot chicks for all that carnage?
I personally believe that more people have killed for holy books than all the Hustlers in the world combined. One only needs to look at theocracies where porn is banned to see how well it prevents rape.
But I agree that we should "eminate porn."
em·a·nate/ˈeməˌnāt/
Verb:
Issue or spread out from (a source): "warmth emanated from the fireplace"; "she felt charm emanating from him".
Originate from; be produced by.
Maybe by eminating porn, the world can become a better place.
:D
Just a Jarhead
12-14-11, 03:59
So how does one explain all the murder and rapes that existed before modern media and porn? Or do you blame cave drawings of hot chicks for all that carnage?
I personally believe that more people have killed for holy books than all the Hustlers in the world combined. One only needs to look at theocracies where porn is banned to see how well it prevents rape.
But I agree that we should "eminate porn."
em·a·nate/ˈeməˌnāt/
Verb:
Issue or spread out from (a source): "warmth emanated from the fireplace"; "she felt charm emanating from him".
Originate from; be produced by.
Maybe by eminating porn, the world can become a better place.
:D
You're messed up dude. One sick puppy..LOL (not on par with Dahmer as a sick puppy (at least I hope not) but a sick puppy none-the-less) Obviously it was a typo and was ELIMINATE. But you knew that!
You can bet God loves a sense a humor too and obiously has one too. Just look at all the creatures of the earth. From the elephant, orangutan, ant eater, penguin, peacock, not to mention all the strange and colorful insects, fish (hammerhead shark) etc. There is a VAST array of them. It's absolutely amazing and often quite amusing and funny. "The proof of God which the skeptic so smugly demands is staring him in the face every day." All of nature screams he exists. Interesting read on this http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/without.htm
You're an intelligent guy Steyr. That's obvious. I read your posts on here. People like you often just need a little extra evidence. It has to make logical sense to you before you take that leap of faith,which isn't that big a leap at all in the end there is so much evidence for all of this. If all the evidence was presented in our modern court system, there would be so much overwhelming evidence that it would be ruled true beyond a reasonable doubt. All we're asked to do is examine the evidence, weigh it, and make your decision. It was the same for me. Eventually the lightbulb went on and it all made perfect sense. At one point all of the pieces off the puzzle start coming together if you keep at it. No one becomes a master guitar player by playing a few times! Anyone who wants to master it knows it usually takes 10 solid years of diligent learning and practice. But you have to search and want answers. If you do search, you'll be amazed at what you end up learning and find. It just doesn't fall in your lap, by design. The things we value and appreciate most in life are usually the things we had to work the hardest to acquire!
But then again, not everyone gets it in the end. Sadly most don't in the end. "The path is wide & the gate is narrow, few who enter in". But it doesn't have to be that way. God's desire is that every man be saved and that no one perish. That's why he made it so friggin easy. Just reach out and accept that free gift. Claim it for yourself! Lack of interest, laziness but too often in the end it is usually man's PRIDE that condemns him. He is too prideful to accept that he even needs a savior, too prideful to accept the FREE gift of salvation. And as men were taught to be self sufficient. To need no one. To be strong and rely on ourselves. We have 2 strikes against us going in trying to understand all of this and make sense of it. Pride is probably the ugliest sin because it does so much damage.
Reagans Rascals
12-14-11, 05:56
if gods love is truly endless and abounding, the unconditional love of a parent, why would he require a sacrifice to give us that love?
that makes no sense.
A parent does not require their child to slaughter a lamb to receive their love, it is unconditional, and never ending. Regardless of merit, or warrant.
If God made us, he put us here, and he knows what we are and what we will do before we do it, therefore, he would never be as callous as to "require" anything to give his love, he would give it freely. And no, that does not mean "he does give it freely to all those who believe in his son/self." That simply means, no matter what it is there, even if I forsake it, he still abounds me with it.
And if he views us as "born into sin," and that every person on earth is this egregious, horrible sinner, and he is so perfect, he would look at us in disgust, as a pestilence and hate our being. So why would he offer love to that he finds revolting?
I was never given the "free will" to choose if I wanted to be "born into sin". It simply happened. So what you are saying is God is holding shit I didn't even do, or choose to do willingly, against me? That's b/s. If that's the case he sounds childish. And if God is perfect, he is not childish, and he cannot be "a jealous god" because jealousy is a human emotion, not perfection.
I guess I'm required to pay reparations for what someone I didn't even know did, countless years ago? Ummmm yeah that makes sense.
So all of that being said, I have still not heard a valid explanation as to why we are considered as evil sinners and the only way to cleanse that is to be born again into Christ.
God views us as disgusting sinners, and so to "clean us", he sends his son here (which is really himself) to specifically die, on purpose, so he could then say "If you don't recognize the sacrifice my son, which was really me, made on your behalf, then you get nothing." It was all his own construct, he wouldn't sacrifice his son/self for us when he is the one that has the problem with us. If I don't like the way someone is using my tools, I don't go over and smash all of my own tools.
If I know my friend will eat the entire plate of brownies if I leave them out, I can't get mad when he does exactly what I already knew he would do. And I can't then require him to do something in return for my love because he betrayed me and ate the brownies, I already knew he would and therefore by leaving them sitting out, I contributed to it, and as such I can't remain in this deadlocked fury of betrayal. I already knew it was coming, I expected it, so I've already gotten over it. And also, I wouldn't then go and cut my foot off to "save" my other friends, and then require them to acknowledge that I cut my foot off for them, to allow them to have my love again, because the friend before them ate the brownies..... I simply wouldn't leave the plate out.... plain and simple..... there's no way you can argue your way out of that
As the great Doug Stanhope said:
That's like saying "I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your mortgage"....
Just a Jarhead
12-14-11, 09:16
Much of this I've already explained or provided links for Rascal. It will take work on your part other than just asking questions. Reading and researching will be required on your part. Spoon feeding stopped when you ceased being an infant. It's great to have questions and often as some are answered 10 more will pop up. But one by one you should be able to address them sufficiently. Most of us all went through the same thing except I admit I wasn't hostile toward God. Even though there was much I didn't understand and I had a million questions, my attitude wasn't hostile as I sense yours may be to the subject. I don't think much is accomplished in anything in life if you go about it with hostility and not an open mind. Attitude as they say is 90% of the battle.
If you seriously and truly want to learn the mind of God as much as us humans can, you're going to need to adopt a different attitude in my humble opinion. If you want to succeed at a new company you don't go in saying the boss' or owners rules are all ****ed up. It's his company, he made the rules. Maybe you should try as hard as you can first to try and understand why they have these rules in place. There's probably a damned good reason. As much as you may not like it, you're not in control here, you didn't create the universe. When you do, you get to create the rules. Some of the rules you may not like 100% or agree with at first until your understanding and knowledge broaden, such as why does God require a sacrifice of a life for the atonement of sin. In his perfection, sin is so egregious to God as I've tried to explain. So much so that you and I cannot fully comprehend.
I guarantee you if you don't understand something or agree with it, it is not because God is evil or mean or his rules suck. It is 100% because in your humanness, your finite wisdom, your inability to understand and your lack knowledge...you just don't understand. I doubt you even understand Quantum Physics. Can you explain time for us? The time space continuum?? Can you explain to me how in the hell the universe goes on and on forever and ever. No end?? At least no end that we can see? Or maybe you know where it ends?? Most of us couldn't if we tried. Yet you think you can fully understand the mind of God who created all of this and the things I just mentioned?? You're going to argue with the creator that he is ****ed up and you're way is much better? LOL How absurdly arrogant to do such. How prideful. How incredibly egoistical. I see, you're right...the creator is all ****ed up & wrong. He should do it your way hunh? You pinhead little human being. You pimple on the earth, not even a spec in time you are. Do you actually hear yourself? Stop assuming God or the creator is ****ed up and start assuming you're the ****ed up one with extremely limited knowledge and understanding and try to learn. Humility goes along way to understanding God. Put your fist down is my first advice. Shaking your fist at God is absolutely a losing battle. I don't mean that being hostile to you it's just my honest advice. My suggestion for someone who sincerely wants to know God and wants answers is to get on your knees, cry out to him that you crave answers and that you ask for help to understand all of these questions of yours. That in itself will be nearly impossible for many to do! They just can't do it because of...Pride.
As far as all loving, God is. But he is also a just God and cannot just overlook sin. He must deal with it if he truly is a just God.
I can suggest lots of reading material. The rest is up to you. Let your journey begin if you care to http://www.godandscience.org/
I can't recommend this book enough for just ($4.99) http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Faith-that-Makes-Sense/dp/0842305351/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323881939&sr=1-1
I've enjoyed the conversation gents.
Reagans Rascals
12-14-11, 10:59
Much of this I've already explained or provided links for Rascal. It will take work on your part other than just asking questions. Reading and researching will be required on your part. Spoon feeding stopped when you ceased being an infant. It's great to have questions and often as some are answered 10 more will pop up. But one by one you should be able to address them sufficiently. Most of us all went through the same thing except I admit I wasn't hostile toward God. Even though there was much I didn't understand and I had a million questions, my attitude wasn't hostile as I sense yours may be to the subject. I don't think much is accomplished in anything in life if you go about it with hostility and not an open mind. Attitude as they say is 90% of the battle.
If you seriously and truly want to learn the mind of God as much as us humans can, you're going to need to adopt a different attitude in my humble opinion. If you want to succeed at a new company you don't go in saying the boss' or owners rules are all ****ed up. It's his company, he made the rules. Maybe you should try as hard as you can first to try and understand why they have these rules in place. There's probably a damned good reason. As much as you may not like it, you're not in control here, you didn't create the universe. When you do, you get to create the rules. Some of the rules you may not like 100% or agree with at first until your understanding and knowledge broaden, such as why does God require a sacrifice of a life for the atonement of sin. In his perfection, sin is so egregious to God as I've tried to explain. So much so that you and I cannot fully comprehend.
I guarantee you if you don't understand something or agree with it, it is not because God is evil or mean or his rules suck. It is 100% because in your humanness, your finite wisdom, your inability to understand and your lack knowledge...you just don't understand. I doubt you even understand Quantum Physics. Can you explain time for us? The time space continuum?? Can you explain to me how in the hell the universe goes on and on forever and ever. No end?? At least no end that we can see? Most of us couldn't if we tried. Yet you think you can fully understand the mind of God who created all of this and the things I just mentioned?? You're going to argue with the creator that he is ****ed up and you're way is much better? LOL How absurdly arrogant to do such. How prideful. How incredibly egoistical. I see, you're right...the creator is all ****ed up & wrong. He should do it your way hunh? You pinhead little human being. You pimple on the earth, not even a spec in time you are. Do you actually hear yourself? Stopping assuming God or the creator is ****ed up and start assuming you're the ****ed up one with extremely limited knowledge and understanding and try to learn. Humility goes along way to understanding God. Put your fist down is my first advice. Shaking your fist at God is absolutely a losing battle. I don't mean that being hostile to you it's just my honest advice. My suggestion for someone who sincerely wants to know God and wants answers is to get on your knees, cry out to him that you crave answers and that you ask for help to understand all of these questions of yours. That in itself will be nearly impossible for many to do! Pride.
As far as all loving, God is. But he is also a just God and cannot just overlook sin. He must deal with it if he truly is a just God.
I can suggest lots of reading material. The rest is up to you. Let your journey begin if you care to http://www.godandscience.org/
I've enjoyed the conversation gents.
I was never questioning god, I was questioning the Christian point of view.... which is not the only one by the way, and is not the end all be all of religions and the only one to have gotten it right.
Its not hostility towards god you detect in my tone, its hostility towards man, and their stance that their way is the only true way....
just like we here in America say this is the greatest country in the world, just because we think so... doesn't mean I can't show you 100 other people that disagree... and would fight to the death that their country is better than ours.
Its all perspective.
And I don't need to read your copious amounts of online literature, that will simple reiterate every single point you have already tried to make, without answering a single question I have posed.
I think if god were truly interested in saving my soul, he would have already called by now, in some way shape or form.... but let me guess... that's because I haven't been listening with an "open heart" right?
With all do respect, you've said time and time again that God is perfect. If he is perfect there is no way our brains could ever comprehend him, so therefore, things like the Bible, will never ever be valid or relevant, or even true in the slightest, considering you are trying to translate perfection into not-perfection. The 2 do not translate. You cannot translate perfection into human emotion, the 2 are not synonymous, meaning you cannot use words like LOVE or JEALOUS or ANGER or any other descriptive context because those relate to HUMANS.... and HUMANS are not perfect....so therefore NOTHING ANYONE HAS OR EVER WILL SAY REGARDING GOD IS ACCURATE....THEREFORE ANY ATTEMPT TO DO SO... SUCH AS THE BIBLE, IS PURE FALLACIOUS CRAP THOUGHT UP BY MAN TO BETTER HIMSELF AMONG HIS PEERS OR TO MAKE SOCIETY BEHAVE IN A CERTAIN WAY
God cannot be ALL-LOVING, or JEALOUS, or have UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, or PARENTAL LOVE, because every single one of those terms is geocentric around the human psyche.... how can you describe sounds in terms of color? you cant..... GOD CANNOT BE DESCRIBED BY HUMAN MEANS...
all of this meaning: WE'VE ALL GOT IT WRONG... CHRISTIANS AND THEIR BIBLE INCLUDED
the only difference is..... I'm willing to admit that I can't read a f'n book written by man and understand it all
SWATcop556
12-14-11, 11:16
Finally made it back around to checking on this thread. Since we have 10 pages that had nothing to do with the topic and limited bandwidth around here you can take this one to PMs gentlemen.
The thread finally dies.
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