View Full Version : Gun!!!
So, I was at walmart with my girlfriend earlier today. We aren't big gamers but we were looking at uncharted 3 as her semester is almost over and it's a game we like playing together. Well, out of the blue, I hear a woman yell "oh my God, he has a GUN!!!" Scares the crap out of me and I start reaching for my gun as I hear "I'm a cop, I'm a cop!" Well, back to condition orange and it turns out that the off duty officer had a coat on but the woman saw the gun on his hip. He had his badge right in front of his gun but that didn't make a difference. This isn't NYC and people are generally used to the gun culture but this is also a student town so we get people from all over.
My first thought (after I calmed down) was, what if it happened to me? Not being le yet, how would I respond. I generally carry IWB for this reason but it could happen. Has that happened to anyone here? How did you respond?
On the drive home, my girlfriend asked how I would expect her to respond if she saw a gun. I told her that it depends. If I was with her, I told her to just tell me without raising alarms unless something bad was imminent. But even then, I told her I would prefer she not yell and attract attention in our direction. The real issue was in the case that I wasn't there. I told her if she saw someone accidentally expose a holstered gun, all was probably fine (she knew this). But if she saw a gun Mexican carried, maybe make her way out of the store. In the case that someone was holding or (using) a gun, I told her to remain silent and leave the area or if she can't to barricade herself somewhere safe and then contact law enforcement. In short, I gave her the civilian active shooter response breakdown ending with if you have no other option, to fight and use anything at her disposal to win.
My general question is, is it ever advisable to yell GUN? I know it draws the attention of others who need to get away or possible off-duty cops or ccw holders who can act but it also draws the attention of a possible bad guy. I know I can't stop the average liberal from overreacting to the sight of a gun but I do want to be able to give my girlfriend a better answer.
Note: Working on it but she doesn't carry yet.
Thats exactly why cocealed means CONCEALED.
In some states, Fla I believe, you can actually have your CCW revoked for that.
IIRC Fla just changed it a little.
I make serious effort NOT to put myself in that situation.
Dress accordingly. Its YOUR responsibilty
Thats exactly why cocealed means CONCEALED.
In some states, Fla I believe, you can actually have your CCW revoked for that.
IIRC Fla just changed it a little.
I make serious effort NOT to put myself in that situation.
Dress accordingly. Its YOUR responsibilty
I hear you brother and I agree but I think you missed my point a bit. As I said, I am very careful to conceal and it hasn't happened to me but the first question was a what if. Such as what if your shirt hooked on something and the gun was exposed. Sometimes things happen, I was wondering how folks here have or would respond if they were called out loudly by some wingnut.
More to the point, the second question was based on how my girlfriend should react if she sees an exposed firearm under various scenarios. And whether it is ever wise to announce loudly that someone has a gun.
cowpuncher
12-08-11, 21:53
The LEO should have called another, on-duty, officer, and cited the silly twit for disturbing the peace or inciting panic or something.
Voodoo_Man
12-08-11, 22:20
The LEO should have called another, on-duty, officer, and cited the silly twit for disturbing the peace or inciting panic or something.
Bit harsh...
She should have just had a talking to from that officer...screaming GUN can be like screaming FIRE....
I hear you brother and I agree but I think you missed my point a bit. As I said, I am very careful to conceal and it hasn't happened to me but the first question was a what if. Such as what if your shirt hooked on something and the gun was exposed. Sometimes things happen, I was wondering how folks here have or would respond if they were called out loudly by some wingnut.
More to the point, the second question was based on how my girlfriend should react if she sees an exposed firearm under various scenarios. And whether it is ever wise to announce loudly that someone has a gun.
Got ya. I wasnt tryin to single you out. It wasnt your fault.
Personally I think the officer should know better...being a cop or not.
Voodoo_Man
12-08-11, 22:45
Got ya. I wasnt tryin to single you out. It wasnt your fault.
Personally I think the officer should know better...being a cop or not.
Maybe its the way his department tells him to wear his firearm when off duty or maybe he just wears it that way all the time and never thinks anything of it?
I am curious as to what state this was in. What are the laws on open carry there? Here in Utah open carry is fine and if it happened to me I would probably take a second to educate her to the fact that I am one of the "good guys" and that she is safer with me around. I do open carry from time to time and have never had a reaction like that. I have had people politely stop me and ask what I was carrying or compliment me for carrying though. I think it is more common here and people are not freaked out by it.
The more I see things like this happen, the more I get behind the open carry movement. Depending on where you live, I doubt most of the sheeple out there have any idea how many people are carrying concealed firearms. I think they would be quite surprised. Good grief, my 65 year old mom carries a concealed revolver every day. Either way, people need to be educated to the fact that good guys carry firearms too.
Maybe its the way his department tells him to wear his firearm when off duty or maybe he just wears it that way all the time and never thinks anything of it?
Thats fine. Thats his choice and his departments way of doing things.
If I wore a hotdog outfit everywhere I went I would expect to get stared at.
Not everyone is a gun person and you have to take in account that people are going to react like that when they see a firearm.
On a different note, I showed my girlfriend this thread cause I wanted her opinion on what she would do....This is her....
Before I met Dane I was terrified of guns. I would not have acted like the crazy lady, I would have removed myself from what I thought was danger.
Most professionals have learned in a crisis situation to remain calm, in which this lady should have done. If she felt the need to notify someone she could have gone to the front.
It was inappropiate of her to yell like that and scare the others around her. You wonder why the government does not tell us exactly what is going on.... it's because of people like that... they can't handle staying calm when they fear for their life.
Voodoo_Man
12-08-11, 23:17
I am curious as to what state this was in. What are the laws on open carry there? Here in Utah open carry is fine and if it happened to me I would probably take a second to educate her to the fact that I am one of the "good guys" and that she is safer with me around. I do open carry from time to time and have never had a reaction like that. I have had people politely stop me and ask what I was carrying or compliment me for carrying though. I think it is more common here and people are not freaked out by it.
The more I see things like this happen, the more I get behind the open carry movement. Depending on where you live, I doubt most of the sheeple out there have any idea how many people are carrying concealed firearms. I think they would be quite surprised. Good grief, my 65 year old mom carries a concealed revolver every day. Either way, people need to be educated to the fact that good guys carry firearms too.
It all depends on where you live, of course. While I agree with the sheeple comment, its a double-edged sword, you do not know either.
Around here if you OC you will get 911'd on, without a doubt, that is the price for living in a left-wing city.
Thats fine. Thats his choice and his departments way of doing things.
If I wore a hotdog outfit everywhere I went I would expect to get stared at.
Not everyone is a gun person and you have to take in account that people are going to react like that when they see a firearm.
On a different note, I showed my girlfriend this thread cause I wanted her opinion on what she would do....This is her....
Before I met Dane I was terrified of guns. I would not have acted like the crazy lady, I would have removed myself from what I thought was danger.
Most professionals have learned in a crisis situation to remain calm, in which this lady should have done. If she felt the need to notify someone she could have gone to the front.
It was inappropiate of her to yell like that and scare the others around her. You wonder why the government does not tell us exactly what is going on.... it's because of people like that... they can't handle staying calm when they fear for their life.
While I agree that her reaction was slightly over-the-top, is that not the response you expect? People like her need to be educated, not punished. Punishment creates resentment while education creates understanding. The difficulty in this is that no one person can do this.
Brimstone - NC. And while I do agree with open carry as a constitutional right, I don't consider it tactically sound. But that is another debate. I don't see much open carry here but it is legal. Of course there is a law that allows you to be charged if you are open carrying and deemed to be carrying to the terror of the public or some dumb crap like that. There need to be two complainants and the officer can be one of them, stupid, I know. And in this case, the gun was concealed but got exposed. I think that in the minds of some people, the fact that you are trying to hide a gun is worse because they figure you're up to no good. Lots of ignorance out there. I'd like to think that a calm explanation would be all that is required but some people are just nutty. I appreciate the feedback.
BCmJUnKie - I agree that remaining calm and getting away from what is perceived to be a dangerous situation and calling le if you feel it is warranted is likely the best course of action. Like your girlfriend, my girlfriend comes from a non-gun background also. But she, like your girlfriend, has the common sense not to start a panic. This world needs more common sense folks. Thanks for your and your girlfriend's feedback.
While I agree that her reaction was slightly over-the-top, is that not the response you expect? People like her need to be educated, not punished..
No definately not. I didnt say punished at all!
Dont get me wrong, I was simply saying that she reacted in an appropriate way for a NON gun person.
I think it was ridiculous either way. But I dont think she should be punished
BCmJUnKie - I agree that remaining calm and getting away from what is perceived to be a dangerous situation and calling le if you feel it is warranted is likely the best course of action. Like your girlfriend, my girlfriend comes from a non-gun background also. But she, like your girlfriend, has the common sense not to start a panic. This world needs more common sense folks. Thanks for your and your girlfriend's feedback.
No problem buddy. I was curious as well to what my girl would have done.
I let her read it and told her to repl;y to it.
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
Voodoo_Man
12-09-11, 08:32
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
I would take a guess and point to programming. We carry a gun, we see videos of shootouts, that is what we think about. When was the last time you saw a video of a person running away from a shooting scenario?
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
Personally, I would rather GTFO with a gun in my hand at the ready, than still in the holster.
If something is going down, and you don't know the specifics of the current threat, being able to effectively react to that threat has value.
That doesn't mean you have to stay and shoot it out, though.
Thats exactly why cocealed means CONCEALED... Dress accordingly. Its YOUR responsibilty
Personally I think the officer should know better...being a cop or not.
Maybe its the way his department tells him to wear his firearm when off duty or maybe he just wears it that way all the time and never thinks anything of it?
There's a tendency among a great many cops to not be as deliberate or cautious about concealment as they ought to be. This is attributable to combinations of not being gun people, following the herd in bad concealment practices, comparatively diminished peril when detected, and being able to badge their way out of exposure problems. There are even those who want to advertise and impress others via "accident." (i.e. "Did I do that? It's okay, I'm a cop. See?")
As I note on other topics, people need to understand the difference between "discreet" and "clandestine", or in this case "concealed." LE struggles with this.
It gets some momentum when we tolerate detectives, SROs, and other plainclothes guys running around either completely exposed, or having a worthless cover garment. My rule of thumb is that if I'm not uniformed, or plainclothes in the confines of a LE-only environment (and sometimes even then), I'm concealed.
Plainclothes SROs running around armed and exposed particularly perplexes me.
Voodoo_Man
12-09-11, 09:46
There's a tendency among a great many cops to not be as deliberate or cautious about concealment as they ought to be. This is attributable to combinations of not being gun people, following the herd in bad concealment practices, comparatively diminished peril when detected, and being able to badge their way out of exposure problems. There are even those who want to advertise and impress others via "accident." (i.e. "Did I do that? It's okay, I'm a cop. See?")
As I note on other topics, people need to understand the difference between "discreet" and "clandestine", or in this case "concealed." LE struggles with this.
It gets some momentum when we tolerate detectives, SROs, and other plainclothes guys running around either completely exposed, or having a worthless cover garment. My rule of thumb is that if I'm not uniformed, or plainclothes in the confines of a LE-only environment (and sometimes even then), I'm concealed.
Plainclothes SROs running around armed and exposed particularly perplexes me.
I agree completely, but would like to add that most officers simply have never been trained or have the mindset of "concealment" programmed into them, over and over. Guys I work with have a tendency to put their duty gun in an OWB holster (serpa or whatnot) and go home like that, not even considering the fact that we get calls for people carrying like that and respond as priority calls.
I hate to fall back on this since its a cliche many times, but it really is training...
I agree completely, but would like to add that most officers simply have never been trained or have the mindset of "concealment" programmed into them, over and over. Guys I work with have a tendency to put their duty gun in an OWB holster (serpa or whatnot) and go home like that, not even considering the fact that we get calls for people carrying like that and respond as priority calls. I hate to fall back on this since its a cliche many times, but it really is training...
Agreed. The only training or guidance most officers get on the topic is what they're allowed to carry off-duty. There's very little in the way of how to do it the way they should...and WHY.
Voodoo_Man
12-09-11, 10:12
Agreed. The only training or guidance most officers get on the topic is what they're allowed to carry off-duty. There's very little in the way of how to do it the way they should...and WHY.
Or more importantly, giving them options to use during a deadly force encounter while they are off duty and carrying.
PrivateCitizen
12-09-11, 10:37
We can talk concealed all day long …
It is going to be statistical reality that someone/somewhere will get a glimpse of someone carrying and overreact at some point.
I think it is great that the take-away here was not a criticism of the carry method or even the "yeller" but rather a focus on how you, and your girlfriend, react.
Personally, calling out "GUN" is a verbal equivalent to a draw on my part if I were the one to say it.
The problem with that is that is that if I saw it … and draw … all eyes in a public place fall on you, NOT THE THREAT.
I am not sure I'd EVER yell it out. Great for the range, not for the mall. Anyone non-uniformed is taking a big jump there.
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
Grabbed her under her armpit with my support hand as I went to my gun with my strong hand while scanning with my head to locate the threat. Have to know where the threat is before moving in my opinion. I can multitask so it doesn't hurt to have gun ready to draw if needed. Wasn't gonna go rambo and leave my girlfriend to fend for herself. You see that behavior in FoF because the student is expecting/waiting for a fight knowing that their or their loved ones life is not on the line.
Who cares if the officer's gun was visible? This is supposed to be a free country and if I want to walk around with a gun that is partly concealed or out in the open, then that it what I am going to do. The lady that panicked needs to be taken aside and have the second ammendment and the reallity of life explained to her and be told sternly to mind her own damn business.
As far as what you tell your girlfriend? if they are carrying in a holster they are probably a good guy. She can get herself a gun to, in fact I would encourage her to do so. "Concealed means concealed" to me means that we are not living in as free country as we should be.
Sorry for the rant, but this is a big part of the reason that I will only live in free states - and the kicker of it is that because of my job, I can carry pretty much anywhere I want to, but I STILL refuse to live in a police state like Kalifornia, NY or IL.
Thats exactly why concealed means CONCEALED.
This. If you are off-duty (or just a regular guy) conceal your damn sidearm.
Edit to address Preliator's post above: This isn't about freedom, it's about doing what is tactically smart. As a LEO, you're not going to do some fool-ass thing just because it's not forbidden. Carrying concealed gives the officer (or civilian) a distinct tactical advantage.
In the end, it IS a free country. Civilians ought to be free to OC, and crazy ladies are free to yell "GUN". As a thinking adult, do you want get yourself outed by a crazy lady if you can help it?
PrivateCitizen
12-09-11, 11:40
This. If you are off-duty (or just a regular guy) conceal your damn sidearm.
NOT "This." Misses the point. It's gonna happen somewhere. Whether it is a wardrobe malfunction or some other circumstance.
In this case it WASN'T EVEN HIS weapon.
Learning how to deal dynamically with situations even when they go bad is the point. Situational awareness and all that …
"You ****ed up" has never fixed any problem I have encountered. How you react and learn and incorporate usually does.
Had the same thing happen to me yesterday. Had my M&P9 in my Raven holster and my hoodie rode up enough when I bent down to lift some stuff from a lower shelf and had a man freak out. When he confronted me about it, my response was, ya, so? I can legally carry anywhere in this state except schools and government buildings.
I just ignored him after that.
The LEO should have called another, on-duty, officer, and cited the silly twit for disturbing the peace or inciting panic or something.
I agree completely with this!!! Typical over-reacting panicky moron!!!
When he confronted me about it, my response was, ya, so? I can legally carry anywhere in this state except schools and government buildings.
I just ignored him after that.
Curious, what did he say to you?
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
Just because you reach for your firearm, doesn’t mean you can’t move… I would much rather GTFO with my firearm extremely accessible (possibly even in hand) if there really was an active shooter. I’ve taken multiple training classes where we practiced that exact thing – grabbing the firearm with the strong hand while moving you and the person with you away from the threat to cover. I think the OP was smart to go to his gun immediately, and then hopefully GTFO at the same time if needed.
As for the concealment argument, we could debate all day long the tactical advantages or disadvantages of concealed carry vs open carry. Personally, I think many people way overblow the “open carry puts you at a tactical disadvantage” idea, but that’s a whole other conversation. And if someone is conceal carrying and their shirt accidentally rides up and someone sees, SO WHAT. It’s not some big secret that most states allow some form of civilian carry. These stupid liberal dumbasses that think “that guy has a gun in a holster so he’s gonna murder a bunch of people”, need to wake up to reality. There are a LOT of good law abiding civilians who legally and responsibly carry firearms on a daily basis, and it’s about time people start realizing that.
As for the question of how I would handle it if someone freaked out, I would smile and very professionally try and explain to them that I’m just another good law abiding citizen who is legally carrying a firearm for personal safety reasons. Most of the time if you just smile and talk to them like a normal law abiding human being, that is enough for them to realize you aren’t going to shoot anyone. Just my .02 anyway
Grabbed her under her armpit with my support hand as I went to my gun with my strong hand while scanning with my head to locate the threat. Have to know where the threat is before moving in my opinion. I can multitask so it doesn't hurt to have gun ready to draw if needed. Wasn't gonna go rambo and leave my girlfriend to fend for herself. You see that behavior in FoF because the student is expecting/waiting for a fight knowing that their or their loved ones life is not on the line.
You didn't mention that before. Probably because it wasn't relevant to your question. Ignore my side comment then.
You didn't mention that before. Probably because it wasn't relevant to your question. Ignore my side comment then.
No worries brother, you do have a good point. It's usually not smart to be a hero, especially when you have a loved one to protect. Maybe I should have been more specific in my description of the event itself.
Grabbed her under her armpit with my support hand as I went to my gun with my strong hand while scanning with my head to locate the threat. Have to know where the threat is before moving in my opinion. I can multitask so it doesn't hurt to have gun ready to draw if needed. Wasn't gonna go rambo and leave my girlfriend to fend for herself. You see that behavior in FoF because the student is expecting/waiting for a fight knowing that their or their loved ones life is not on the line.
I would have done the same thing. My wife would have also if she were alone or with the kids. She would have quietly turned and left to get a manager. My wife doesn't carry but she does shoot a lot! She can handle my M&P 45 as well as I can. Behaving like this woman did very easily could have made the situation a lot worse.
Voodoo_Man
12-09-11, 15:16
This is a good example of a situation which needed to be planned beforehand.
Take the time to sit down with your significant other and let them know that if/when SHTF or you see something, you will tell them and that they need to follow your commands to the letter and no arguments.
Some teach to have a "codeword" other teach a signal of some sort, I would merely suggest you figure out what works for the two of you. So instead of fighting against your significant other they are on board and are ready to act as soon as you say so.
Edit to address Preliator's post above: This isn't about freedom, it's about doing what is tactically smart. As a LEO, you're not going to do some fool-ass thing just because it's not forbidden. Carrying concealed gives the officer (or civilian) a distinct tactical advantage.
This is open for MUCH debate. :-)
I'm not yelling, "Gun!"
I'll be too busy looking for it and/or a way out of the area.
Guess I'm getting old, but it's all about me and mine these days. If I/we can get out of the area, we're doing it.
Take the time to sit down with your significant other...
Back when I had a wife and some rug rats, we settled on 3 commands:
1. Run = I'd point/turn/shove her in a specific direction.
2. Hide = I'd point/turn/shove her in a specific direction.
3. Fight = She best get her gun out.
The group of cripples I hang around with these days have our own prowords. I'd prefer to keep those to myself.
To try and answer the question:
I think it would be a situation where the best thing said is what you don't say. Non verbal language should be demonstrated first and foremost in this situation such as having a neutral/none threatening stance with the individual (eye contact, body facing her (or him, what ever the situation), hands steady/not making any sudden movements especially at the gun, etc), giving them a look that is not threatening but still in charge and composed, go into questioning mode with "question face", something like that. Verbally do not have a harsh or aggressive voice and instead have a tone that conveys "I am not bad" and then say something to "disarm" their fear which could be something like "Hi, how you doing today". From there depending how they react (provided they have not run away yet) you can explain the situation, apologize (don't have to be "I am in the wrong" apology, but a "I am sorry to startle you"), etc. If someone called the police during this situation then there is that to deal with as well which if found confronted by police, act accordingly.
Bit off topic:
Kind of off topic but I find it interesting that someone yelled "Gun!" and your first instinct was to draw your gun instead of rushing you and your your GF to cover or concealment. I've seen this during FoF scenarios where people choose to participate in a gunfight when they had an opportunity to GTFO. Just something to think about.
I would take a guess and point to programming. We carry a gun, we see videos of shootouts, that is what we think about. When was the last time you saw a video of a person running away from a shooting scenario?
I'll probably get a lot of flak for this but this does bring up a general issue I see a lot, including this forum. To many people either flat out trying to be bad asses or simply not thinking about or acknowledging other aspects of how to protect yourselves or others.
Lots of focusing on how to train to kill multiple armed and skilled individuals in a gunfight. Not so much emphasis on how to avoid danger, prevent injuries to yourself (developing rifle skill to fight 10 men is reasonable but buying body amour in case you ever get in a defensive situation to reduce injury is retarded and mall ninjary, as example), diffuse situations, etc.
I like being ready and prepared for what might be thrown at me and all and do not discourage training to fight for X rare scenario but so much more can be done that is not and at times even mocked that could save ones ass (maybe not even knowing it).
I agree completely with this!!! Typical over-reacting panicky moron!!!
Curious, what did he say to you?
said that your license makes you have to conceal it.
I said back that Indiana is a PERSONAL PROTECTION LICENSE, not a Concealed Carry. I can open carry in plain view if I so please.
He mumbled, scoffed, said it should be illegal and your just a redneck if you think you need a gun.
I just replied with yep, uh huh, you keep thinking that and walked away.
I wasn't in the mood to make any more of a scene than he was already making. I half expected cops to show up but none never did.
said that your license makes you have to conceal it.
I said back that Indiana is a PERSONAL PROTECTION LICENSE, not a Concealed Carry. I can open carry in plain view if I so please.
He mumbled, scoffed, said it should be illegal and your just a redneck if you think you need a gun.
I just replied with yep, uh huh, you keep thinking that and walked away.
I wasn't in the mood to make any more of a scene than he was already making. I half expected cops to show up but none never did.
He sounds like a nice and polite individual, every bit worthy of giving out such criticism :sarcastic:
suthrncop66
12-09-11, 20:44
I agree that the best thing for the girlfriend to do is distance herself from any danger, and you too if you are with her....Of course if it is a definate active shooter scenario she is safest if you stay with her and you both leave the area together....I won't get into the whole if people are getting killed should you be the hero or stay with her debate....but if it is a truly deadly scenario and she does not have the opportunity to leave make sure that she understands the difference between cover and concealment..it sounds like common sense but it is very important to make sure that she really understands that just because they cant see her doesnt make her safe!!
This is a good example of a situation which needed to be planned beforehand.
Take the time to sit down with your significant other and let them know that if/when SHTF or you see something, you will tell them and that they need to follow your commands to the letter and no arguments.
Some teach to have a "codeword" other teach a signal of some sort, I would merely suggest you figure out what works for the two of you. So instead of fighting against your significant other they are on board and are ready to act as soon as you say so.
This is a good idea, I do need to sit down with her and make a better plan. From my look and tone, she does sense if something is wrong and doesn't fight me even if she has no idea what was going on. This has happened once in a pretty hairy situation for us and she reacted perfectly, although she, at the time, though I had kicked a homeless guy - we were in fact being assaulted by three individuals. PM if you want or care for details (persec concerns). Since then however, she is hypervigilant about body language. If I'm "creeped out" (her words) by some behavior, she picks up on it immediately and asks what is wrong.
She knows to walk on my support side and when she is feeling mushy and wants to hold my hand, and we're not at a hardware store :), she knows to go gor my support hand. When we're shopping or getting groceries, she knows we are not getting much more than I (of course I'm holding all the crap) can fit in my bag and support hand before we make a trip to the car to drop off. Similarly, at restaurants, she knows that I'll be wanting to face as many entrances as possible and that I prefer sitting further to the rear of the restaurant if possible.
What we do need though is a pre made plan as you suggest in case of active shooter and probably a few other scenarios. The code or distress word is a good idea also. I'll work on getting that sorted out over Christmas. Thanks for the idea.
I agree that the best thing for the girlfriend to do is distance herself from any danger, and you too if you are with her....Of course if it is a definate active shooter scenario she is safest if you stay with her and you both leave the area together....I won't get into the whole if people are getting killed should you be the hero or stay with her debate....but if it is a truly deadly scenario and she does not have the opportunity to leave make sure that she understands the difference between cover and concealment..it sounds like common sense but it is very important to make sure that she really understands that just because they cant see her doesnt make her safe!!
Sound advice, thanks brother. She does understand the difference between cover and concealment in theory but I think maybe I should spend some time with her actually pointing it out when at stores to create familiarity. Theory is great, but showing her will probably go a long way. I'll throw that on the Christmas break to-do list.
The thoery and practice difference was made amazingly clear to us when she started carrying the ASP palm defender. We set her keychain up so she could also use it as a flail. I showed her to carry it in her strong hand (since she doesn't carry) with her thumb indexed on the safety and neck index to deploy. We discussed how to respond in case of an attack, including verbal commands (help, fire, back off, etc ...), when verbal commands were absolutely not appripriate (in case of an attack in progress, suspected ambush, etc...), and when not deploying the asp was in her best interest (gun pointing at her). We practiced the motions for a while and then I set up some moderatly planned FoF scenarios (after letting the neighborors know). Total shitshow! I had presented her with a lot (too much) informarion and while she absorbed it, reality was far different from practice. So it was back to the drawing board and we built up her responses with simplified, straightforward exercises building up to actual FoF. We also spent time while at malls, stores, parking garages, etc... building the habit to look for exits so she knows where to run to if attacked.
Note: She shoots and is looking into carrying but that is still a ways off I think. I don't push people to carry unless they have the proper mindset and she doesn't yet, in my opinion. When she is ready, I'm more than happy to go there.
Thanks for the useful posts folks, I'm building a small list. Thank you.
Voodoo_Man
12-09-11, 21:18
To address two points at once:
situational awareness is key, since based on how quickly you can track a threat, wwhile acting on that threat and not making yourself a high priority target (by contacting the threat).
Making a plan, codeword, preunderstood and trained set of actions which you will require of your SO during a situation which requires your action is very important. You are not going to be able to do what needs to be done if you are constantly thinking about your SO/kids and if a threat targets you for whatever reason then you will depend on preplanned actions to occur so that you do not have to focus, even slightly on two things, one being a threat.
Practical applicaton of this is far more difficult since once you introduce the concept of heartrate and which "condition" you and your SO may be in, that is why it needs to be trained.
Now the issue with attempting to descalate a situation which involves anyone other than yourself is obvious enough. I would suggest that simply walking away from a bad situation can make it worse and no action is worst yet. Interpersonal skills are not something everyone needs, nor is it something that can be taught (with any type of specific result), it can only be learned. While many would say any situation can be brought down a notch, there some situations which cannot.
My personal take on the matter is the leaf eater vs. meat eater concept. When you walk into a room, do you consider how and who you will need to kill first to get yourself to safety or do you just relax and wait for a threat to present itself, then raise your personal threat level? Most of the guys I work with (le) are leaf eaters they wait for the threat to present itself then react accordingly. As we all know someone on the defense will always have the disadvantage. On the other side you have those who will look at every situation considering what factors bring down the threat...always being on the offensive. Its a bit more complicated but I'm not going to go in depth.
Some of this stuff will draw flack and wrong or improper, that's fine, its all just my opinion anyway.
When it comes to having a significant other with you and something is going down I have been playing with the idea of something along the lines of saying something like "take my shirt" which is followed by them grabbing the part of the shirt around the small of the back and getting directly behind. Theoretically will let you keep tabs of where they are without having to make eye contact so can focus at navigating to safety, if backing away they can also provide some guidance of where to step, stuff like that. I see some possible issues such as stumbling over each other, can constrict a shirt preventing access to ammo reserves, etc which depending on the situation may or may not be an issue (if you are actually fighting someone then its best they not around anyway). Criticisms are welcomed since this is just something I more or less hatched myself.
If your actively engaged with a threat it would probably be best just to have them flee when your the focus, unless the plan is to have them part of the fight it is probably best they just take off and go get help the second you start shooting. If its only an eluding to something bad about to happen then you can also probably just take them by the arm and lead them to best possible safe area.
When it comes to having a significant other with you and something is going down I have been playing with the idea of something along the lines of saying something like "take my shirt" which is followed by them grabbing the part of the shirt around the small of the back and getting directly behind. Theoretically will let you keep tabs of where they are without having to make eye contact so can focus at navigating to safety, if backing away they can also provide some guidance of where to step, stuff like that. I see some possible issues such as stumbling over each other, can constrict a shirt preventing access to ammo reserves, etc which depending on the situation may or may not be an issue (if you are actually fighting someone then its best they not around anyway). Criticisms are welcomed since this is just something I more or less hatched myself.
I prefer the under armpit grab for protecting a vip, in this case my girlfriend. I can guide her easily and still have my gun at high port (not high ready) while I move her. Thing about grabbing shirts and such is when people get amped up, they pull really fricking hard without noticing. That can easily cause her or you to loose balance or fall to the ground. With the armpit grab, you can guide her pretty well and aggressively. Also, she can maintain a head up position so that she can see where she is going which facilitates proper and efficient movement and keep in mind that people tend to go where they are looking (ex. old school psd with the folding up method where the vip is staring at the ground and often ends up there). As for her grabbing my shirt as a guide, I am totally against that idea. I have the gun, I have the training, she is my girlfriend, I am going to protect her and I need to be in control to do that effectively.
Note: Also, I want her in front of me. We're moving away from the threat, I want to continue to be able to get a clear rear scans as we move (quick scans as focus is primarily on where we are moving to) and in the worst case scenario, to be a backstop for any bullets coming our way (to protect her, not because I like getting shot).
Edited to add a lot.
Not always, but reactions from people that see someone armed are not necessarily an instinctual "Oh shit!" Many times it will depend on who is seen to be carrying. Clean cut, in shape, with a no-nonsense demeanor...people will generally not even blink if I am armed. Got your hat turned around backwards and your pants around your ass? Diff. reaction.
I also live in WV right now so the gun culture is alive and well. I also had no issues carrying in NC, GA, or (gasp) NOLA.
I may be wrong depending upon if there is a liberal douche looking to make a statement, but how a person looks and carries themselves is a main determinant in how another will react upon seeing this person armed.
Not always, but reactions from people that see someone armed are not necessarily an instinctual "Oh shit!" Many times it will depend on who is seen to be carrying. Clean cut, in shape, with a no-nonsense demeanor...people will generally not even blink if I am armed. Got your hat turned around backwards and your pants around your ass? Diff. reaction.
Good observations.
One of the easiest ways to avoid scrutiny by LE, security, and the public at large is to look neatly groomed, neatly dressed, and boringly middle-class.
I prefer the under armpit grab for protecting a vip, in this case my girlfriend. I can guide her easily and still have my gun at high port (not high ready) while I move her. Thing about grabbing shirts and such is when people get amped up, they pull really fricking hard without noticing. That can easily cause her or you to loose balance or fall to the ground. With the armpit grab, you can guide her pretty well and aggressively. Also, she can maintain a head up position so that she can see where she is going which facilitates proper and efficient movement and keep in mind that people tend to go where they are looking (ex. old school psd with the folding up method where the vip is staring at the ground and often ends up there). As for her grabbing my shirt as a guide, I am totally against that idea. I have the gun, I have the training, she is my girlfriend, I am going to protect her and I need to be in control to do that effectively.
Note: Also, I want her in front of me. We're moving away from the threat, I want to continue to be able to get a clear rear scans as we move (quick scans as focus is primarily on where we are moving to) and in the worst case scenario, to be a backstop for any bullets coming our way (to protect her, not because I like getting shot).
Edited to add a lot.
In hind sight I am shamed for not thinking about the very high possibility of pulling way to tight or even a tug of war match of sorts, guess I went about it a little bit to much on the "best case" end of things.
NOT "This." Misses the point. It's gonna happen somewhere. Whether it is a wardrobe malfunction or some other circumstance.
In this case it WASN'T EVEN HIS weapon.
Learning how to deal dynamically with situations even when they go bad is the point. Situational awareness and all that …
"You ****ed up" has never fixed any problem I have encountered. How you react and learn and incorporate usually does.
In over 15 years of daily carrying a concealed handgun, I have never had a situation where someone was able to notice my gun, much less be able to cause a scene. That's because I put as much thought and effort concealing it as I do into perfecting my shooting skills.
I control my actions and I take responsibility for ensuring that my gun doesn't become visible. As a Texas CHL Instructor, I make sure that my students understand this concept. Blaming wardrobe malfunctions or other circumstances won't carry any weight in court.
If you wanna Open Carry and are legal to do so, go for it. Being sloppy and careless when carrying concealed is just being sloppy and careless.
Gringop
In over 15 years of daily carrying a concealed handgun, I have never had a situation where someone was able to notice my gun, much less be able to cause a scene. That's because I put as much thought and effort concealing it as I do into perfecting my shooting skills.
I control my actions and I take responsibility for ensuring that my gun doesn't become visible. As a Texas CHL Instructor, I make sure that my students understand this concept. Blaming wardrobe malfunctions or other circumstances won't carry any weight in court.
If you wanna Open Carry and are legal to do so, go for it. Being sloppy and careless when carrying concealed is just being sloppy and careless.Gringop
EVERYTHING you said.
This is what I was trying to say.
I back this up 100%.
In hind sight I am shamed for not thinking about the very high possibility of pulling way to tight or even a tug of war match of sorts, guess I went about it a little bit to much on the "best case" end of things.
Hell, no shame buddy. At least you're thinking which is more than what most folks do. And frankly, if no one is thinking, no new tactics come about. And keep in mind that for every 10,000 new ideas/tactics, only a dozen of so will stand up to scrutiny. And out of those, MAYBE one will withstand the test of time. As long as you are open to your new ideas being honestly vetted, you're on the right path in this life. Keep thinking brother.
In over 15 years of daily carrying a concealed handgun, I have never had a situation where someone was able to notice my gun, much less be able to cause a scene. That's because I put as much thought and effort concealing it as I do into perfecting my shooting skills.
I control my actions and I take responsibility for ensuring that my gun doesn't become visible. As a Texas CHL Instructor, I make sure that my students understand this concept. Blaming wardrobe malfunctions or other circumstances won't carry any weight in court.
If you wanna Open Carry and are legal to do so, go for it. Being sloppy and careless when carrying concealed is just being sloppy and careless.
Gringop
While I agree 100% that we should do everything in our power to insure we stay concealed till the balloon goes up, I don't think it's realistic to say that something goofy won't happen and someone will see you're carrying. A guy wearing a badge next to his gun is not being sloppy, most probably he is following his departmental regs for off duty carry or plain clothes duty. Every plain clothes cop here in the Austin are does it this way. That stupid deuche bag would be having a daily heart attack around here. IMO she should have been cited for creating a panic. She is an idiot and should be held accountable for her idiocy.
NOT "This." Misses the point. It's gonna happen somewhere. Whether it is a wardrobe malfunction or some other circumstance.
This sounds dangerously like the mistaken notion that if you handle guns long enough, an ND is inevitable. We know that the latter does not have to be the case. Why then, the former?
I am curious since its around the direction of being detected and whether it is, should, or shouldn't be a possibility. Been wondering about what is the reasonable cut off because although its very easy to not have a full gun print, grips being exposed, etc I find it hard to not have some sort of print at some time unless carrying in such a way that is a major issue to actually using the weapon, puny gun, cannot do normal actions such as sitting/bending over, uncomfortable, extreme wardrobe, etc.
I am curious since its around the direction of being detected and whether it is, should, or shouldn't be a possibility. Been wondering about what is the reasonable cut off because although its very easy to not have a full gun print, grips being exposed, etc I find it hard to not have some sort of print at some time unless carrying in such a way that is a major issue to actually using the weapon, puny gun, cannot do normal actions such as sitting/bending over, uncomfortable, extreme wardrobe, etc.
If I understand your post correctly, this applies:
Most folks overestimate both how visible their gun and gear is when concealed. They also overestimate the ability of others (including LE) to detect it. This is especially true in the modern era of smart phones, blackberrys, and belt mounted miscelanea.
This sounds dangerously like the mistaken notion that if you handle guns long enough, an ND is inevitable. We know that the latter does not have to be the case. Why then, the former?
Bad, bad example. A shot fired negligently and a firearm accidentally exposed are not on the same page, chapter, or even book. I know good folks who have accidentally had their gun exposed when their jacket snagged on something. And remember, concealment and accessibility are inversely proportional. Take a breath guy.
I usually don't get into the ND issue since people have strong and stubborn opinions on the issue but here goes...
I don't believe that ND's are inevitable but they can happen to good people. With people who shoot a lot, especially under stress and when learning/applying advanced tactics, ND's are more likely than the guys who heads out to a square range from time to time but these ND's are usually in a less severe form (I'll explain what I mean). I know solid guys with SF backgrounds who have had an ND. The severity of an ND is usually left out of the discussion. At the lowest level, shooting a hostage in a shoothouse is an ND as you broke rule 2 (finger off trigger until acceptable sight pic) and rule 4 (SA, here, knowing your target and what is around it).
This is off the top of my head but here is a quick breakdown on my view of severity.
ND severity:
Low - ND in a safe direction at the range but only toward the berm, in a shoothouse but only while following preset scan range to teammates rules, or in any other training area so long as the ND was in a direction approved for live fire. This has no legal consequence but should be a big wake-up call to the shooter.
Medium - ND in a safe direction for all scenarios NOT covered in the low category. This category, of course, includes ND's as a result of administrative actions at home, work, vehicle, etc... Clearing barrels aren't an exception as they are not supposed to be shot. There can be legal consequences to this ND. The key here is safe direction.
Note: With medium severity, only the shooter knows if he was being SA or if he was just lucky. If he was lucky, this ND counts as severe in my book. Unfortunately no one but the shooter knows which is the case. If you have this ND and know you got lucky as to direction, self analyze whether you should have a gun.
Severe: An ND in an unsafe direction where no human being was harmed. This can very possibly have legal consequences and the shooter has earned them. Oftentimes a result of complacency in experienced shooters and ineptness in amateur or stupid shooters. You probably shouldn't be around firearms but there are some good people who have ended up here out of complacency and they may deserve a second chance. But it'll take a long time to rebuild any trust in that individual.
Note: A second ND makes it a severe ND in my book regardless of whether it falls in the low or medium category. If you don't learn from your mistakes, I don't want you around me.
Unforgivable: A severe ND in which a human being (including the shooter) is injured. This is actually close to severe in my opinion in that the only that is difference is luck. But outcome influences consequences and while the action may have been the same, the outcome certainly was not. I don't think these people should carry a gun but again, there are exceptions. There are a couple of folks here that have shot themselves. They are good people and I don't think they will ever do it again. Remember, legal consequences are likely and you deserve it.
Just a rough breakdown. I think some folks need to get off their pedestal and acknowledge that there are degrees of severity. If a person can't see grey area, there is no hope of getting through to them.
All of this said, keep in mind that most ND's happen to folks who are utter morons, not the average member of this board. Usually college kids trying to be macho or impress, gangstas, people who know everything about guns because they grew up with them, people drinking to inebriation and playing with guns, people who are lax about gun safety, etc... These people shouldn't be playing with guns (I don't mean this in a constitutional sense) to begin with so my judgement on them is appropriately harsh.
Note: For the record, I have not, to date, had an ND and have never been outed for carrying a concealed gun.
Note: Sorry for bad spelling/grammar, this is a long post and I'm being lazy.
Edit to add: Skintop911, I didn't mean to single you out here. A lot of people have a very black and white view on ND's and I think we can be a bit more broad minded. I don't want to come across as if I am picking a fight with you. And on another note, I totally agree with you that a well groomed appearance will keep you flying under the radar as far as concealed carry goes.
PrivateCitizen
12-11-11, 00:16
In over 15 years of daily carrying a concealed handgun, I have never had a situation where someone was able to notice my gun, much less be able to cause a scene. That's because I put as much thought and effort concealing it as I do into perfecting my shooting skills.
I control my actions and I take responsibility for ensuring that my gun doesn't become visible. As a Texas CHL Instructor, I make sure that my students understand this concept. Blaming wardrobe malfunctions or other circumstances won't carry any weight in court.
If you wanna Open Carry and are legal to do so, go for it. Being sloppy and careless when carrying concealed is just being sloppy and careless.
Gringop
It seems it is coming in that I am saying it is inevitable and that is not at all what I getting at.
I didn't say it would happen to you, to me or anyone specifically. But it can … and clearly does happen … based on the OP.
The general course of discussion around here is about learning, preparing and dealing. To not acknowledge that this is a possibility … even remotely … strikes me as arrogant.
It doesn't matter if you are a CHL instructor or whatever … things can and do go wrong. You can do everything possible to prevent it. But in the end it just might …
That you'd considered the possibility and have a course of action you are already ahead. That's my point.
This sounds dangerously like the mistaken notion that if you handle guns long enough, an ND is inevitable. We know that the latter does not have to be the case. Why then, the former?
Apples/Oranges. Whole different tier of 'gone bad'
But I'd wager to say if you are around ranges enough it is likely you'll see one happen (to someone else, not you).
Again, the point isn't so much control of your own sphere, it is are you prepared to deal with those around you losing control of theirs.
If I understand your post correctly, this applies:
Most folks overestimate both how visible their gun and gear is when concealed. They also overestimate the ability of others (including LE) to detect it. This is especially true in the modern era of smart phones, blackberrys, and belt mounted miscelanea.
Yep, exactly what I was trying to get at. Seen statements related to being detected as unacceptable but have always seen that possibility of being detected since a lot of the time you can make something out in the mirror especially when trying to make it happen where there is that one in a million chance someone else can spot it as well although it will most likely never happen due to reasons mentioned by you.
I figured most would take into account something reasonable like a 1" rather obscure line that prints when bending over where being figured out could be more or less considered a fluke to the nature of CC but wanted to double check.
The general course of discussion around here is about learning, preparing and dealing. To not acknowledge that this is a possibility … even remotely … strikes me as arrogant.
........
Again, the point isn't so much control of your own sphere, it is are you prepared to deal with those around you losing control of theirs.
Thanks for bringing this back to my original question, it's so easy to stray off topic. I reduced your quote in my post, I don't know if there are rules on that but I don't think I altered your original meaning. Let me know if you feel otherwise.
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