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shark31
12-09-11, 12:03
I thought that I would share what I have learned about what works for me and what doesn't when it comes to precision rifle systems.

My first rifle was a snipers hide build by what was at the time Patriot Arms. I knew nothing about what I wanted, or how its features worked, and just asked for what I saw everyone recommend.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/IMG_3237copy.jpg

It featured:
McMillan A5 with a McMillan thumbscrew cheekpiece and a 'sniper' fill
22" Broughton .308 5c barrel with 1-10 twist in a #7 profile firing the 175 SMK at 2700 FPS
Surgeon 591
Seeking rings
USO SN-3 3-17 ergo with MOA reticle and adjustments and illumination
AAC 762-SD
Harris swivel bipod
Jewel trigger

It was exceptionally accurate (.25MOA) and a great learning tool. I took it out to South Dakota and ran 2,000 rounds through it in a week of prairie dog hunting.

In that week I learned that I did not care for the buttstock of the A5, as I had trouble getting it to ride bags the way that I wanted. I also disliked the cheekpiece adjustment as it was hard to put it back in the exact location every time and would work loose after a bit of shooting.

The scope worked fine, but I did not like having to break my cheek weld to adjust the objective parallax.

The silencer was the biggest frustration as it was an older (pre-circumference welded) 18 tooth design. It would loosen after each shot or two and the accuracy when loose was around 5moa with a 12moa shift.

After shooting the rifle for a total of 5,000 rounds, I decided to send it off to GAP to have it fitted with a Manners T2a, and to have the barrel retreaded to accept a Surefire 762k mount. I also got a Schmidt Bender USMC scope at the same time.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/229.jpg

The stock was great, it rode the bags exactly as I wanted, the cheekpiece was a work of art, returned to zero every time and stayed there. It also was a little lighter.

The scope was also a welcomed improvement. It weighed substantially less, had better ergonomics, and I grew to like the Mil system better as it allowed me more features to use with a mildot master for tac competitions where we ranged with the reticle.

The silencer was a large disappointment. I fired less than 5 rounds through it and determined that the sound reduction was just not good enough as it rang my ears on a 22 inch barrel. I had my 762-SD refurbished to 2007 spec and ran it.

I used this setup for another 2-3,000 rounds before I felt the need to get a new barrel. With the hard firing schedules I put it through I felt like 8,000 rounds was a lot for the barrel to take.

During this time I also found that I wanted to have a bit more magnification and I did not care for the MTC knobs of the scope, so I went to a 4-16x42 Schmidt and Bender. I liked the single turn knob and the P4 reticle much better than the USMC scope, however the tunneling of the Schmidt line at low power had me wanting a better low end FOV.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/SunFeb07202808AmericaNew_York2010.jpg

I eventually ditched the Schmidt and went with the new F1. The new F1 MLR reticle had basically the same features as the P4, but also had no tunneling and was a bit lighter than the Schmidt as I had become more weight conscious with my rifle accessories.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/2010-05-07232820.jpg

Since I had been shooting more competitions and hunting with the rifle, I became acutely aware that I had set the rifle up to be the perfect prone static position rifle, but that was not how I was using it. It was a beast to shoot in other positions and offhand.

Most of the issues I had were with the weight of the barrel. I learned that while the weight itself when carrying the rifle was not all that bad, when deploying it in offhand or awkward positions it would be unbearable and a hindrance.

Also, the stock for-end, while great for riding bags, was just too big for sling shooting (I have smaller hands).

Since I knew that the stock and barrel would be replaced, I started to examine all of my accessories. The goal of the new rifle would be to do a little bit of everything well, but that meant compromise on some of the things that it did excellent.

Since the largest problem I had was the balance and weight of the system I first began to look at the barrel forward.

I determined that a much shorter barrel would be necessary and decided on 18" as the length. Since I still hunted with it I wanted to retain more energy at range, so I looked into other calibers. I decided that the 7-08 firing the 162 AMAX would be about perfect if I could get it above 2600fps. To further save weight I decided to go with a Remington Varmint contour barrel and to DEEPLY spiral flute the barrel to save even more weight.

I would have gone smaller in contour, but I also decided that I would move away from QD silencers and go with a thread on unit, so I needed the shoulder size to be large. One thing that most people don't consider when selecting silencers is the weight of the mount itself. I selected the Cyclone-k silencer due to it being steel and a simple and accurate thread on mount that would eliminate any issues with a mount. Since it only weighs 3oz. more than a typical titanium silencer, I went with it for durability on the short barrel.

For the stock I chose the A1-3 for the forend that would ride bags and sling shoot well and for the higher comb and more traditional grip. I went with standard fill as I wanted a little more weight in the rear to create better balance, an edge stock would save weight but make the balance worse.

I replaced to Badger DBM with a Surgeon unit because I liked he mag fence for leaning into a barricade instead of applying pressure to the magazine itself.

The biggest change for me was the move to a 2.5-10x32 mil/mil NXS. I made the move purely to save weight. The lack of a FFP reticle has not been much of an issue so far, but I have to constantly remember not to use the reticle for hold offs on low power, this almost resulted in a gutshot deer this season that was moving across a field at a trot. The lack of parallax adjustment had me concerned at first, but the eye box is so small that your head has to be exactly right to get a full FOV, so I have found that I stay pretty consistent at range despite to fixed parallax. I would say my biggest complaint with the scope is its light gathering ability, which is pretty poor compared to my previous scopes.

I decided to give the build to RW Snyder as he had a good reputation and was willing to do the work in a short time frame. He did not disappoint. I was able to get the AMAX to 2700fps which blew away my load for my .308 which pushed the 175SMK at the same speed. All in all I think that I am finally at the point with the system that I do not want to change anything about it. While it won't out group a full blown f-class rig, it will do everything that I need it to do exceptionally well, from target shooting in the prone, to hunting, to competitions, I finally have my one 'do-it-all' rifle. The only thing that has not changed is the trigger and action, LOL.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/92479002.jpg

rickp
12-09-11, 12:19
It's interesting how one's setup changes with experience and shooting style/mission.
My first rifle is night and day compared to what I use now. Even to this day I want to make changes to my stick. Eventually they will happen.

R.

darr3239
12-09-11, 12:31
Excellent write-up. I like the fact you have made your rifle a multi-purpose one. Sometimes one can refine themselves right out of real world practicality. I'm not knocking anyone who enjoys making a rifle as functional as they can for one specific application. That's what hobbies are all about, along with the pleasure they bring.

There is just something appealing about a "go to" rifle, that when it's really needed quickly, will do anything you want it to under a multitude of varying circumstances.

orkan
12-09-11, 13:03
If anything, this thread should illustrate just how few forum participants (any precision rifle forum) actually shoot their rifles in anything but the prone position.

His rifle as configured in the first picture is "the" definition of a perfect rifle by "snipershide" standards. Yet, as he soon learned... completely worthless for anything but prone.

I went through a similar progression a few years ago. It's not until you dedicate yourself to several thousand rounds a year, that you realize what works and what doesn't.

Very good and entertaining presentation. Thanks for sharing.

shark31
12-09-11, 14:05
ETA: I also need to mention two important things that I left out:
1. I no longer use a bipod, I use the small bag pictured above as it weighs less and can be carried on a belt. If I have time to shoot in the prone it takes the same amount of time to take the bag off my belt as it does to deploy the bipod legs. This makes a huge difference in the weight and balance department, while making the rifle more streamlined.
2. Target ID is no longer done with the rifle scope and is accomplished with the Zeiss LRF binos. This leads to quicker ID because of the higher resolution, larger field of view, and lighter weight of the observation tool not being connected to a rifle. It also has the bonus of not having to point a loaded rifle at everything I want to look at.

shark31
12-09-11, 14:19
I have had a couple of PMs regarding why I didn't list going to a lower magnification as one of the hindrances to the compact NF. Most people think that they want all the magnification they can get on a "precision" rifle.

I find that the only thing that extra magnification adds is a larger image, but the image itself is the same. In other words, having the image be larger doesn't make you a steadier shot.

As I just mentioned above, I don't use the rifle scope for target ID.

Also, once you shoot enough at distance you will find that follow up shots are going to happen more often than first round hits. If you are zoomed in at 20x you will be less likely to see your impact due to FOV.

If I shot a lot past 1,200 yards I would probably want a higher power scope, but I would probably run a different rifle anyway.

rickp
12-09-11, 14:33
I have had a couple of PMs regarding why I didn't list going to a lower magnification as one of the hindrances to the compact NF. Most people think that they want all the magnification they can get on a "precision" rifle.

I find that the only thing that extra magnification adds is a larger image, but the image itself is the same. In other words, having the image be larger doesn't make you a steadier shot.

As I just mentioned above, I don't use the rifle scope for target ID.

Also, once you shoot enough at distance you will find that follow up shots are going to happen more often than first round hits. If you are zoomed in at 20x you will be less likely to see your impact due to FOV.

If I shot a lot past 1,200 yards I would probably want a higher power scope, but I would probably run a different rifle anyway.

One of the biggest mistakes new shooters make when putting together a stick is getting glass with magnification that is WAY too high for the type of shooting they'll be doing.

At a certain point very high magnification actually makes it harder to shoot. All it does is magnify mirage and makes it very difficult to get a clear target image. Also when shooting from alternate positions (other than prone) high magnification magnifies the perceived movement of the rifle. To add to the list, same goes for shooting movers.

It's nice to have the glass but IMO a lot of shooters don't understand the shortcomings of it as well and when to dial it down. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it.

R.

orkan
12-09-11, 14:55
Shark and Rick hit the nail on the head as far as too much magnification is concerned. It takes an accomplished shooter to maintain composure at 25x. The increased visibility of those micro-movements makes one naturally want to fight against them using muscle power. Huge mistake.

The pic below illustrates a few stages in my progression. First it was long heavy barrels for max velocity. Then it was short thick barrels for best harmonics and most tolerance to heavy suppressors. Then it was where I am now. A completely different rifle system to address all the issues of weight, length, and balance.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/thor/IMG_5186.JPG

Am I done? Nope. Never. I will always take advantage of new developments that bring the "perfect" rifle system closer to my grasp.

rickp
12-09-11, 15:04
My next main change on my rifle is a shorter barrel. Since I run a suppressor I find my current setup to be a little too long.

The other change I would like to dabble into is a stock change. I shoot an AW but I like the new stock on the AX model or the after maket Viperskins. I feel the stock is a bit more streamlined or less bulky as opposed to the typical AI stock.

R.

Belmont31R
12-09-11, 20:13
I had the same feelings about the dismal 2.5x10 NF during low light. I really think a 10X top end needs at least a 40MM objective if not 50MM+. No matter how good the glass is its hard to get good light through that ratio.

OutlawDon
12-10-11, 01:00
Great write up and timeline of your evolution.

Those are all sweet rifle setups in their own right, but it's good to know you found the best blend of compromise and practicality for your current needs and roles.

MOA
12-10-11, 12:54
I think you invested the rounds to figure out exactly what you need. Me, I would have built 2 rifles. One for comp and one for hunting. At least thats what I keep telling my self as I lug a 13# rifle with a 26" barrel thru the woods. When I replace this barrel I will be going down to 22". Only other change would be glass.
Buy the way nice rifle thru the whole thing.

Pappabear
12-11-11, 03:07
Shark and Rick hit the nail on the head as far as too much magnification is concerned. It takes an accomplished shooter to maintain composure at 25x. The increased visibility of those micro-movements makes one naturally want to fight against them using muscle power. Huge mistake.

The pic below illustrates a few stages in my progression. First it was long heavy barrels for max velocity. Then it was short thick barrels for best harmonics and most tolerance to heavy suppressors. Then it was where I am now. A completely different rifle system to address all the issues of weight, length, and balance.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/thor/IMG_5186.JPG

Am I done? Nope. Never. I will always take advantage of new developments that bring the "perfect" rifle system closer to my grasp.

Whats your caliber of choice?

orkan
12-11-11, 09:27
Depends on what I'm doing. ;)

If I'm just having fun shooting steel... 308. For sure.

It's the hardest to use, thus teaches me the most. If I must hit what I'm shooting at... then 338LM.

mkmckinley
12-21-11, 07:47
Thanks for the writeup I liked reading it a lot. It's refreshing to see someone go out, use a rifle, and adapt it in a way that works for them. I think your experiences are similar to mine in terms of weight. I've found giving up a little weight for shootability really pays dividends. Anyway congrats on your build. How do you like the Cyclone K all said and done? If you had it to do over would you get something else like a TBAC 30P-1? Do you use the Cyclone on other weapons?

shark31
12-21-11, 13:16
How do you like the Cyclone K all said and done? If you had it to do over would you get something else like a TBAC 30P-1? Do you use the Cyclone on other weapons?


Great question.

The TBAC30P-1 weighs 16oz. and the Cyclone K weighs 18.5oz.

So there is only 2.5oz. difference between the two, however as I mentioned before weight and balance are two totally different things. Since the extra weight is at the end of the muzzle, it matters more to me than say scope weight or stock weight.

Let me first disclose that I used to work for AAC, and that my particular silencer is actually a custom unit that is a SPR/M4 tube with all inconel baffles that has two more baffles than the factory K can. It still weighs the same as the K can, but is MUCH more durable and slightly quieter.

That being said, I have a good bit of knowledge when it comes to silencers. The titanium silencers have their place, but in my opinion, they need a muzzle brake mount to prevent erosion of the blast baffle, especially on a rifle that is as short as mine. When you add the weight of a brake, it would weigh much more than the Cyclone.

As I am NOT a fan of QD silencers of any type for bolt guns, the Cyclone K is the lightest thread on silencer that is steel/inconel that is available.

If I was trying to build a similar lightweight rifle with more range, I would build a 20" .338 Lapua. On that gun it would make sense to run a titanium QD silencer because of the weight saving with the larger 338 cans. The TBAC 338BA would be my choice for that rifle.

mkmckinley
12-22-11, 05:25
Do you experience any cold bore/first shot POI shift? That's one of the touted benefits of the TBAC. For 2.5 ounces I tend to agree that the added durability of inconel baffles are probably worth it.

shark31
12-22-11, 11:16
Do you experience any cold bore/first shot POI shift? That's one of the touted benefits of the TBAC. For 2.5 ounces I tend to agree that the added durability of inconel baffles are probably worth it.


I have not experienced that as an issue with any silencer.

Do you mean POI shift from suppressed to unsuppressed? If so, I would say that with all silencers there is a POI shift, with exceptions being isolated incidents.

The solution is to carry two sets of dope, no more problem.

Zak Smith
01-05-12, 00:10
Hi,

We haven't seen any erosion of the first baffle on the 30P-1's out there so far, including ones shot primarily on 7mm RM/WSM's and .300WM's. They are most popular on bolt guns but I know we have some on OBR's and REPR's too.

regards
Zak

hunt_ak
01-05-12, 01:50
I assume RW Snyder did the barrel fluting as well? What were the estimated weight savings on the fluting?

M4Fundi
01-05-12, 02:14
Fantastic read! I wish we had more posts like this.

shark31
01-06-12, 11:38
Hi,

We haven't seen any erosion of the first baffle on the 30P-1's out there so far, including ones shot primarily on 7mm RM/WSM's and .300WM's. They are most popular on bolt guns but I know we have some on OBR's and REPR's too.

regards
Zak

As in none at all? That is pretty amazing. My silencer has blast baffle erosion and it's all 718 inconel.

That's good to hear, but I have seen Grade 5 Titanium thread on silencers exhibit much more rapid erosion on the blast baffle when compared to inconel. This was on destructive analysis tests.

I said earlier that the Cyclone K weighs 18.5 oz. and your silencer weighs 16 oz., when run on a short barrel I believe that a sacrificial brake is necessary on titanium silencers. When I add the weight of the mount (which I assume is over 2.5oz.) I would lose any weight savings of going with the titanium can.

The weight of the QD mount is always overlooked by silencer consumers because it is not advertised. When people talk about the NT4 being so heavy and the M4-2000 being so light I laugh a little inside as they are practically the same weight when both use their respective FH mounts, the Blackout is a HEAVY (4.3oz.) flashhider.

That said, if I was in the market for a titanium silencer, the Thunderbeast would be at the top of the list (but it would be the BA version). I still say that you and Ops Inc. have the hands down best 'muzzle device attachment' in the industry, however the Ops cans are just too heavy IMO.

Please don't take this as a slight to Thunderbeast, I just think that for this particular rifle a thread on inconel silencer fit the bill based on weight and material selection.


hunt_ak I assume RW Snyder did the barrel fluting as well? What were the estimated weight savings on the fluting?


I believe that he farmed out the fluting to Kampfield, but I am not sure. I would estimate that it was close to 8oz. or so.