View Full Version : Open carry with CCW permit?
Reagans Rascals
12-10-11, 23:43
I just recently moved to the state of VA. And I have a question as to whether or not open carry is legal if you have a CCW permit.
I have heard in the past that in some states if you have a CCW, it is illegal to open carry.
I am a bigger guy, and I carry a larger weapon, USP Tactical 9mm with the jet funnel kit and weapon light. So carrying concealed is quite the hassle, and carrying open is preferred. Yes, I could always get a smaller weapon, but that's not the concern at the moment.
I have a CCW permit from PA, which has reciprocity with VA, and I am wondering if I am stuck to strictly concealed carry here.
Also, if I can in fact open carry, is there a law regarding holster retention? I carry in a kydex holster, similar to a raven.
Here are some links:
http://opencarry.org/va.html
http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm
I can't speak for VA, but here in TN it is technically legal to carry open but I would highly recommend against it for a couple of reasons.
First it opens yourself up to be disarmed much easier and the ramifications that come with it.
Second, and maybe more importantly, you will get the attention of LE much faster. There have been a couple of incidents here in the past few years where local LE did not realize the law allows open carry and gave the legally armed citizen a very difficult way to go. Other citizens have called in LE because someone "was armed", you can guess how quickly LE responded.
I personally knew one individual who was involved in such an incident. He went into a gas station and forgot to re-apply his cover garment, LE reacted in a manner you would expect them too when dealing with an unknown armed individual. After the situation was finished he received a letter of apology from the Chief who also promised that all his officers would receive training on the details of the state's CCW laws.
This of course is not meant to knock LE in any manner whatsoever. Just because it may be legal, imo, it is a very bad idea.
However, the choice will be yours. Good luck.
If carrying concealed is a hassle then just don't carry. You might just end up like the poor fellow in this story ( also in Virginia)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2817069/posts
A smart man once said, "Carrying concealed is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable."
Also if it is really that uncomfortable or a hassle maybe you need a better holster. I carry a sig P226 with a X300 in a raven concealment holster OWB if in a button down or IWB if I am just wearing a T-shirt and have no issues with it being hard to hide or comfortable. I also carry a set of cuffs and two mags as mandated by my department and it is not an issue.
But, if all of this is falling on deaf ears and you are still going to open carry for the your safety and the safety of others, please get a good retention holster and practice weapons retention.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 02:11
If carrying concealed is a hassle then just don't carry.
seriously? that is your advice? If something is difficult and a better solution is desired, just forget it all together then?
Going out to a bar to pick up some front-butt is kind of a hassle so I guess its just not worth it at all then right?
Wearing eye protection when I weld is a hassle so I guess I shouldn't weld then right?
There is no law regarding holster retention.
As far as I know there are also no issues carrying openly if you hold a CCW permit. As far as opening carrying just to do it…well it’s your neck with the “shoot me first” sign around it.
I am a bigger guy, and I carry a larger weapon, USP Tactical 9mm with the jet funnel kit and weapon light. So carrying concealed is quite the hassle, and carrying open is preferred. Yes, I could always get a smaller weapon, but that's not the concern at the moment.
That's an awful lot to lug around. Nothing wrong with that, but it definately limits your ability to function normally in your day-to-day activities. A coworker of mine just got out of plain clothes work where he worked narcotics. In all that time he carried a single stacked P239 9mm and one extra mag. He was involved in two shootings where he DRTed the bagguys, and in one of those he took down two of them. He's also pulled his P239 about a dozen times during those nasty narcotics deals. The average citizen doesn't attract very much shit......this guy was a magnet for violent encounters. Just a little perspective on how you can make a particular tool work great for you even when dealing with armed SOBs. Plus, he wasn't impeded by carrying a butt load of equipment around.
As far as open carry goes, you have a MUCH better tactical advantage over a possible adversary if they don't know that you are armed. Conceal carry gives you the element of suprise, and doesn't mark you as a target. There have actually been a number of robberies in recent years in open carry states where a suspect was only interested in stealing the other person's gun. Guns are a valuable commodity on the street.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 06:22
That's an awful lot to lug around. Nothing wrong with that, but it definately limits your ability to function normally in your day-to-day activities. A coworker of mine just got out of plain clothes work where he worked narcotics. In all that time he carried a single stacked P239 9mm and one extra mag. He was involved in two shootings where he DRTed the bagguys, and in one of those he took down two of them. He's also pulled his P239 about a dozen times during those nasty narcotics deals. The average citizen doesn't attract very much shit......this guy was a magnet for violent encounters. Just a little perspective on how you can make a particular tool work great for you even when dealing with armed SOBs. Plus, he wasn't impeded by carrying a butt load of equipment around.
As far as open carry goes, you have a MUCH better tactical advantage over a possible adversary if they don't know that you are armed. Conceal carry gives you the element of suprise, and doesn't mark you as a target. There have actually been a number of robberies in recent years in open carry states where a suspect was only interested in stealing the other person's gun. Guns are a valuable commodity on the street.
I understand completely what you are saying. And while I do agree that carrying concealed does provide you with the element of surprise, doesn't this also make you appear as a weaker target and thus make you more open to those types of situations in the first place? I would think the average thug will target those he knows he can take.... If he see's a 240 lb, 6' male loaded to bear with an HK and 2 extra mags (essentially 55 rounds of 115gr FTX Critical Defense) on his hip, I would hope he would think twice and just move on down the line and find a lesser defended target.
I would think the principal of M.A.D. would be more beneficial than the element of surprise in these types of situations... as in prevention through the perception of mutually assured destruction... they know they will at minimum, get ****ed up messing with you... where as if they see someone that appears to be unarmed, they may present themselves as vulnerable....?
seriously? that is your advice? If something is difficult and a better solution is desired, just forget it all together then?
Going out to a bar to pick up some front-butt is kind of a hassle so I guess its just not worth it at all then right?
I think the gentleman was simply stating the liability that open carry now has in a gun fearing world. Going out to get front butt may be a hassle but doing so won't have fearful people call the cops, tempted thugs to grab your front butt from you and rob you with it, or law enforcement not know the laws with getting front butt and make your time tougher for it.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 06:37
I think the gentleman was simply stating the liability that open carry now has in a gun fearing world. Going out to get front butt may be a hassle but doing so won't have fearful people call the cops, tempted thugs to grab your front butt from you and rob you with it, or law enforcement not know the laws with getting front butt and make your time tougher for it.
I get what you guys are saying. I guess it would come down to personal appearance, how well you present yourself as far as grooming and dress while you open carry. I would think that if you presented yourself in a professional, disciplined manner, most would view you as an off-duty LEO, and would not be alarmed by it. But if you were dressed in cut off jeans, and a wife beater while mexican carrying in Walmart, that's when suspicions begin to become aroused.
I understand completely what you are saying. And while I do agree that carrying concealed does provide you with the element of surprise, doesn't this also make you appear as a weaker target and thus make you more open to those types of situations in the first place? I would think the average thug will target those he knows he can take.... If he see's a 240 lb, 6' male loaded to bear with an HK and 2 extra mags (essentially 55 rounds of 115gr FTX Critical Defense) on his hip, I would hope he would think twice and just move on down the line and find a lesser defended target.
I would think the principal of M.A.D. would be more beneficial than the element of surprise in these types of situations... as in prevention through the perception of mutually assured destruction... they know they will at minimum, get ****ed up messing with you... where as if they see someone that appears to be unarmed, they may present themselves as vulnerable....?
As for this... Think of it from the average thugs perspective. A new gun with magazines and extra rounds probably looks very valuable to someone that needs quick cash. Him seeing that you are armed may invoke him to come fire two shots to the back of the head before you notice he's in the same area. Which would prevent mutually assured destruction. I would say carrying concealed definitely does not make yourself a weaker target.
Carry concealed, always show an alert posture, and make eye contact with everyone to let them know you're aware of them and anything they're doing.
I understand completely what you are saying. And while I do agree that carrying concealed does provide you with the element of surprise, doesn't this also make you appear as a weaker target and thus make you more open to those types of situations in the first place? I would think the average thug will target those he knows he can take.... If he see's a 240 lb, 6' male loaded to bear with an HK and 2 extra mags (essentially 55 rounds of 115gr FTX Critical Defense) on his hip, I would hope he would think twice and just move on down the line and find a lesser defended target.
I would think the principal of M.A.D. would be more beneficial than the element of surprise in these types of situations... as in prevention through the perception of mutually assured destruction... they know they will at minimum, get ****ed up messing with you... where as if they see someone that appears to be unarmed, they may present themselves as vulnerable....?
I think the last case I remember off the top of my head where an open carrier was robbed the guy was over 6" tall, a biker, and sported a 1911 with extra mags in plain sight. Open carry makes you a target, and unless you plan to have eyes in the back of your head at all times, you'd be better off as just roaming the streets with the image of a big guy who looks like he could kick your ass(but he has a CCW). It's up to you though. I'm just going off of repeated observations in the field.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 06:45
Where does the distinction lie separating open carry and concealed carry, as far as, if I am concealed carrying and the weapon happens to be exposed or prints, that is then illegal? Or could you just simply claim you were open carrying and your shirt became untucked?
Essentially, what I am getting at is, my weapon is large, however I'm not going to swap right now because I am very familiar with my current system. That being said, it does not conceal well with every type of dress, and in some instances, it is more beneficial to open carry with an OWB on-the-hip type holster.
I have looked around, but I am unable to find IWB holsters, or even just retention holsters that will fit a full size USP Tactical with the threaded barrel, night sites, and an M3X light. So I made my own kydex holster after following a thread from here.
Just open carry the pistol. You have every right to do so. If it makes someone else uncomfortable or occasionally causes a LEO to question you then it is a great opportunity to educate them on liberty. You can find lots of information and other people that open carry every day at opencarry.org. I have personally never had an issue with anyone or LEOs while open carrying.
To be honest, I am surprised at so many people on this forum advising you to give up your rights in order to make others feel comfortable or because criminals tend to look for armed people to rob. That doesn't even sound reasonable. If you are living in Compton, sure, but most criminals are looking for a weak target.
There was a case in Georgia recently where a group of guys were going to rob a Waffle House, but they were waiting outside until the person inside that was open carrying left. A police officer found them suspicious and questioned them before they went inside and they admitted everything. How many times does a criminal choose a different target due to a person open carrying? Most criminals don't want to take a chance on getting killed for a few hundred dollars.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 07:30
Just open carry the pistol. You have every right to do so. If it makes someone else uncomfortable or occasionally causes a LEO to question you then it is a great opportunity to educate them on liberty. You can find lots of information and other people that open carry every day at opencarry.org. I have personally never had an issue with anyone or LEOs while open carrying.
To be honest, I am surprised at so many people on this forum advising you to give up your rights in order to make others feel comfortable or because criminals tend to look for armed people to rob. That doesn't even sound reasonable. If you are living in Compton, sure, but most criminals are looking for a weak target.
There was a case in Georgia recently where a group of guys were going to rob a Waffle House, but they were waiting outside until the person inside that was open carrying left. A police officer found them suspicious and questioned them before they went inside and they admitted everything. How many times does a criminal choose a different target due to a person open carrying? Most criminals don't want to take a chance on getting killed for a few hundred dollars.
my thoughts exactly
I understand completely what you are saying. And while I do agree that carrying concealed does provide you with the element of surprise, doesn't this also make you appear as a weaker target and thus make you more open to those types of situations in the first place? I would think the average thug will target those he knows he can take.... If he see's a 240 lb, 6' male loaded to bear with an HK and 2 extra mags (essentially 55 rounds of 115gr FTX Critical Defense) on his hip, I would hope he would think twice and just move on down the line and find a lesser defended target.
I would think the principal of M.A.D. would be more beneficial than the element of surprise in these types of situations... as in prevention through the perception of mutually assured destruction... they know they will at minimum, get ****ed up messing with you... where as if they see someone that appears to be unarmed, they may present themselves as vulnerable....?
Rascal;
I'm a career LEO & Vet. I can tell you with 100% certainty that going concealed is your best option. There are PLENTY of fools out there that do not give a shit about your HK or what type of ammo you have in a magazine, or your physical descriptors. "It is not the Size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog" that will win.
I would focus on tactics.......not equipment. Carry concealed unless you're on a range.
Just open carry the pistol. You have every right to do so. If it makes someone else uncomfortable or occasionally causes a LEO to question you then it is a great opportunity to educate them on liberty. You can find lots of information and other people that open carry every day at opencarry.org. I have personally never had an issue with anyone or LEOs while open carrying.
To be honest, I am surprised at so many people on this forum advising you to give up your rights in order to make others feel comfortable or because criminals tend to look for armed people to rob. That doesn't even sound reasonable. If you are living in Compton, sure, but most criminals are looking for a weak target.
There was a case in Georgia recently where a group of guys were going to rob a Waffle House, but they were waiting outside until the person inside that was open carrying left. A police officer found them suspicious and questioned them before they went inside and they admitted everything. How many times does a criminal choose a different target due to a person open carrying? Most criminals don't want to take a chance on getting killed for a few hundred dollars.
I view this less about rights and more about common sense. If you have your CCW Permit/License...use it. Utah is probably a bit different than most of the East or urban areas. I have heard the stories from others who have lived out that way or in Arizona and come back here crying about seeing people with a six shooter on their hip. Communities and society are different out there, I respect that and wish some of those expectations would carry over nationally....but they don't.
Exercise the right of CCW... not open carry where the potential for problems is greater.
In this state, the "Permit to Carry a Pistol" is necessary but it applies to either concealed or open carry. Some states, open carry is legal without a permit.
As to the wisdom of it, that's a personal decision. Some people feel as strongly about the political statement as they do about their personal protection. More power to 'em. Me, I'm a busy guy and wouldn't enjoy the attention that open carry would bring me, nor do I really have the time or the inclination to try to educate the public and/or police officers on the Constitution or the law, especially while proned out with my hands handcuffed behind my back.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with open carry, i do it on occasion, and Virginia is a open carry friendly state. People on this forum seem to be generally against it, but they are also from all around the country. I recommend joining a Virginia specific carry forum and getting more information there about this matter. Nontheless, it is a viable, and perfectly legal option, and there is nothing wrong with it.
I like it when others open carry because it does reduce the chance of violent behavior by the typical criminal. But I do not do it for fear of being taken by surprise.
NCPatrolAR
12-11-11, 08:42
The whole "it's my right to open carry" thing gets rather old. Most people advising against open carry aren't advocate giving up a "right"; they are talking about carrying firearms in what they perceive to be the safest manner possible.
Or could you just simply claim you were open carrying and your shirt became untucked?
No...... but if you have a CCW, that's a moot point. We actually just had some laws changed that addressed that. It was -illegal- to CC in a park but -LEGAL- to OC. So if your shirt came "untucked" you were illegal. But yes, that distinction was and may still be on the books.
You also need to be certain you can open carry here if you are not a citizen. I think you can though.
http://vcdl.org/ go there and ask those guys. Philip Van Cleave is the top guy. They are on top of all this stuff.
I don't know what part of Virginia you are going to but I can tell you, you are going to stick out like a sore thumb with OC. Depending on what you are doing and where you are doing it, someone --will-- call the LEOs. You better hope you are not inadvertently in a no gun zone like a city campus ( that looks no different than a basic residential street )
You just don't see people open carry here. Maybe a small shop owner or something.
But VCDL is who you want to ask Philip knows the laws backwards and forwards. Oh, btw.... it was not all that long ago that someone OCing had the Richmond city LEOs called on him and I believe they may have taken him into custody mistakenly. So don't think that just because VCDL and You know what the actual laws are that every LEO in VA does as well. OCing will place you at the potential mercy of the least educated among us even if that might be LEO. It will then become your job to cooperate and educate ( in that order ).
If you want all that hassle, knock yourself out. It's atypical behavior for a Virginian. Aside from a planned specific setting, it's probably been 20 years since I have seen someone OC and that was in a gun store. Even there, he stuck out like sore thumb. Dual handguns in shoulder rig.
seriously? that is your advice? If something is difficult and a better solution is desired, just forget it all together then?
Going out to a bar to pick up some front-butt is kind of a hassle so I guess its just not worth it at all then right?
Wearing eye protection when I weld is a hassle so I guess I shouldn't weld then right?
What the hell is "front- butt"?
I think open carry had it's place in the Wild West, but today it just makes anti gun people more aware of the amount of guns out there , not to mention loosing a tactical advantage to a potential threat, the shoot me first sign, and advertising something that a criminal would want. CCW just has too many advantages vs. open carry .
I would look for a more concealable weapon set up JMHO.
The decision to open carry should in large part take into consideration where you live and the atmosphere. I never had an issue with open carry in NC, LA(including NOLA), SC, GA, or WV. I have spent lots of time out west and in states such as AZ, ID, UT, WY, etc., the citizens are generally gun friendly and a responsible citizen open carrying won't be an issue. Or, you could run into the local liberal douche that may make a scene.
For me, open carry isn't an issue. One has to decide whether where they live also fits the description. NYC=no open carry, for example. The libs surrounding you would cry, shout, moan, and tremble while calling the SWAT team.
It's legal here in VA, but as others have said, I'd advise against doing so, especially in more urban/suburban settings.
Heavy Metal
12-11-11, 11:14
When I am in the woods, I sometimes Open Carry. It's a tool in the toolbox. Those who say never open carry are just as foolish as those who argue to always open carry. What works for the Jefferson National Forest and Wal-Mart are two differing things.
It is like life, situational.
Travelingchild
12-11-11, 12:43
...
You also need to be certain you can open carry here if you are not a citizen. I think you can though...
Not to be an ass but you mean "resident"
Example In Wyoming (Where I reside) any U.S. Citizen who is resideding in the U.S. who is legally permitted to own a firearm may Openly carry.
But only a Resident of the State Of Wy. may carry concealed without a permit.
http://attorneygeneral.state.wy.us/dci/pdf/6-8-104effective07012011.pdf
Just open carry the pistol. You have every right to do so. If it makes someone else uncomfortable or occasionally causes a LEO to question you then it is a great opportunity to educate them on liberty. You can find lots of information and other people that open carry every day at opencarry.org. I have personally never had an issue with anyone or LEOs while open carrying.
To be honest, I am surprised at so many people on this forum advising you to give up your rights in order to make others feel comfortable or because criminals tend to look for armed people to rob. That doesn't even sound reasonable. If you are living in Compton, sure, but most criminals are looking for a weak target.
I don't get this argument. No one is advising anyone to "give up their right." In literal terms, the argument has been to "consider not exercising that right" for a variety of reasons. There is no constitutional argument here.
Open carry is usually not tactically sound. If you can't recognize the nearly unanimous consensus here, you are probably set in your ways and will grasp at any example or idea that seems to support your view even though there is an abundance of counterexamples and experienced folks telling you otherwise. That is fine, you are free to "exercise your right."
Open carry makes people nervous and you may have more hassles with law enforcement. This is a fact. Cry all you want about how people should respect your right to open carry and how wrong they are to not respect your rights, it is still going to happen, especially in certain parts of the country. It's not fair but unless you do something wrong, you won't have any legal issues. If these hassles are acceptable to you, "exercise your right."
In NC, we have a rarely enforced law (still on the books I think) where you can be charged with carrying to the terror of the public or something like that. The charge requires two signatures and the officer can be one of them. The only time I heard this being used in Raleigh was at a restaurant where some knucklehead got into a argument with the owner over his right to carry in the establishment. The owner had asked him to leave the gun in the car, he refused, he went to jail. Stupid on the owners part, yes ... do I agree with that crap, no. But that is the world in which we live.
More than anything else, you open carry folks need to relax. You collectively get your panties in a bunch everytime you perceive an attack on your rights. Most of the time on forums such as these, people are suggesting you not exercise that right, they are not trying to take that right away from you.
I know the whole "rights not exercised are lost" saying and I believe that every individual has the responsibility to make their own decisions regarding issues such as these. If exercising your right is more important to you than the drawbacks discussed, do it and you have my support.
The one thing I have not seen brought up that might very well make this entire thread silly in terms of covering legal bases is the fact you have a PA permit and now a residence in VA, if I got the original post correctly. Not an issue if all your going to do is OC since there is no restrictions there to needing a permit or not being able to do it if you have a CC permit, but when it comes to any issue with CC in VA for you they may not respect another states permit if you are no longer a resident of that state and now a resident of theirs even if they have reciprocity with PA and that is to say if your PA permit is even valid once you leave.
Its like driver's license where moving states you are required to get a license for the new state of residence within X time frame unless you have a justifiable reason like temporary residence (mainly .mil).
Not an expert on VA or PA gun laws but here (OH) you have to notify of a change of address if you move somewhat locally where if you move to a county not touching the one you got your license from then you need to apply for a new one all together in your new county of residence or one touching it.
Not saying I know for sure and someone can correct me if I am wrong but your PA permit may not fly anymore with changing of residence, if push comes to shove.
Anyhow when it comes to advantage of OC vs CC, specifically with being a target of criminals or not. Keep in mind there is also the fear of the unknown where if a situation is clear and obvious then they could be less afraid and more willing to victimize someone then if they are not sure of the situation and putting a gun in plain sight is like saying "here is what I bring to the table if you rob me" letting them know where they stand as well as planning accordingly. Acting accordingly brings up what others have said with element of surprise, if they know you have a gun and decide for the "pay day" then they will probably be in condition orange or red while robbing you and there isn't much you can do with risk of them jumping at your move and they might even react to a presumed action even if you comply (might also bring some buddies to help when they otherwise wouldn't of). If your CC and just demonstrating other behavior that says "not someone to mess with" then they might be just to unsure the situation and if you are targeted one day then it could involve them being in condition white and "just robbing some guy for his I-pod".
Just my thoughts.
The whole "it's my right to open carry" thing gets rather old. Most people advising against open carry aren't advocate giving up a "right"; they are talking about carrying firearms in what they perceive to be the safest manner possible.
I agree completely. (And I also know that some that open carry do it as a political statement, rather than what's best for self-protection, though they may not admit. That's another thread, though.)
To the OP -- as others have said, some criminals don't care how big you are and they may not consider you a hardened target. Why lose the element of surprise or, perhaps more importantly, make yourself a nice target by open carrying?
Lose some weight, get a concealable pistol and ditch the weapon-mounted light. (You should EDC a flashlight anyway, and will use one that is not attached to your pistol much more often.)
Don't know if this was already posted. Open carry backfired on this person.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...ns-ar-1510369/
The 16-year-old accused of killing two people in less than seven hours last week in Richmond has several felony convictions, including one for a violent crime.
Toby Smith Jr. is accused of stealing Blaine Tyler's gun inside a gas station last week and fatally shooting him after Tyler chased Smith inside the store.
The Richmond teenager also is accused of fatally shooting Pierre Walter "Pete" Cosby hours later in an attempted robbery in the Oak Grove neighborhood in South Richmond.
Smith, who was arrested Monday and charged in last week's two killings, was convicted in 2010 of malicious wounding, grand larceny and burglary, according to court papers filed in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.
Tyee Marquel Hamiel, another 16-year-old Richmonder, also faces charges in Tyler's killing but not in Cosby's. Hamiel's criminal history includes convictions in 2007 of grand larceny and malicious wounding, according to court records.
Smith and Hamiel also were convicted of attempted grand larceny on the same day in August of this year, the records show.
"This isn't the first time that they've been in trouble together," said Richmond Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Andy Johnson.
Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the suspects' prior cases because they involve juvenile records, including what sentences they received.
The court records were filed this week as part of the discovery process for the current cases against Smith and Hamiel. The documents do not list sentencing information or details about the crimes.
Judge Marilynn C. Goss of Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court denied a motion by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter to view portions of the case files for the previous convictions. She ruled that the prior hearings were closed and that the information on the cases, including any sentences handed down, would remain confidential.
Johnson, speaking generally about juvenile cases, said it is rare in Richmond for a juvenile to be sent to detention after his or her case is adjudicated.
"Our goal is to try to get through to these kids before they become adults so we don't automatically lock them up every time they do something wrong," he said.
However, in the cases now pending against Smith and Hamiel, prosecutors will try to have the teens tried as adults and, if the suspects are convicted of murder charges, they could face up to life in adult prison.
Smith's attorney, Robert D. Shrader Jr., and Hamiel's attorney, John G. Lafratta, declined to discuss the cases against their clients.
No one answered the door Friday at the home of Smith's mother in the 300 block of East 11th Street in the Blackwell neighborhood in South Richmond. Court papers list that address as the home of Smith but also give another address for him.
A woman who answered the door Friday at Hamiel's mother's home at the Midlothian Village Apartments in South Richmond said she would have no comment. No one came to the door at the home Hamiel shared with a sister in the 2400 block of Atwell Lane near Jefferson Davis Highway and Bellemeade Road.
Authorities say last week's homicides both involved a robbery or attempted robberies, but it was unclear why or how each victim was selected. Also unknown is whether either suspect knew either victim.
Tyler, a customer at the BP station, was killed about 8:15 p.m. Friday, Nov. 25, inside the store. According to court papers, Smith and Hamiel arrived at the BP together on a single scooter and followed Tyler into the store.
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.
"The suspects walk in and one immediately reached for Mr. Tyler's gun," Johnson said. Tyler did not draw his weapon.
According to court papers, Smith took Tyler's gun during a struggle and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith inside the store. Authorities said they could not confirm that Tyler was killed with his own gun until they get the results of forensics testing. They also are awaiting test results to show whether the gun used to kill Tyler was the one used to shoot Cosby.
Cosby, 32, was sitting with a woman in a car in the 1700 block of Edwards Avenue about 2:30 a.m. last Saturday, when Smith walked up and tried to rob them, according to court documents. The woman hurried out of the car and heard gunshots as she ran. Police found Cosby dead in the vehicle.
Smith faces 17 charges, including two counts of murder in the deaths of Tyler and Cosby, along with robbery of Tyler and two counts of attempted robbery in the Edwards Avenue slaying. Hamiel faces eight charges, including murder and robbery of Tyler.
Preliminary hearings for both teens are set for Jan. 30.
And if you insist on open carry, then please have some level of retention. It is absolutely foolish not to.
Lose some weight, get a concealable pistol and ditch the weapon-mounted light. (You should EDC a flashlight anyway, and will use one that is not attached to your pistol much more often.
Not to nitpick but I don't completely agree with this. A weapon mounted light doesn't add too much bulk in a good holster and is very useful under the right circumstances. A handheld light is essential and should be on your person whether your gun has a light or not. I carry a glock 26 during summer months IWB and a glock 19 w/ weaponlight IWB or OWB concealed (depending on attire) during the winter months. I much prefer having a weapon with a light attached. It is a distinct advantage when used appropriately.
Note: I maintain the same position of carry regardless of IWB or OWB and move cover garments in the same fashion (t-shirt, shirt, or jacket) so my draw is reasonably consistent.
I agree on getting a more concealable pistol although I don't understand why, at least during cold months, it is too difficult to OWB conceal a full sized pistol in VA. A good jacket is pretty good for concealment. Summer is a different story.
As for losing weight, I do believe in maintaining a high level of fitness (per age group). Some folks here would probably be better off going for a run than sitting in front of the computer. But some guys are built big and even is a guy has got extra weight on them, that is not a reason to not carry. There are solutions to most weight related carrying issues but just as with designer clothing, these things work better for people who are in shape.
Speaking of fitness, I should probably stop yapping and go for a run myself :)
Not to nitpick but I don't completely agree with this. A weapon mounted light doesn't add too much bulk in a good holster and is very useful under the right circumstances. A handheld light is essential and should be on your person whether your gun has a light or not.
You have a good point, Sboza. I should rephrase it. Ditch the weapon mounted light if that's what prevents you from carrying concealed. If you can carry a weapon mounted light concealed, do so, but you should have another flashlight as well, since there will be many times you need to illuminate something that you can't muzzle.
(Part of my point was you need a EDC flashlight independent of your weapon, and another part was don't use a bulky weapon light as a reason to not carry concealed.)
Regarding fitness - maybe I should have said don't use extra rations you are carrying around as an excuse not to carry concealed. That's why I said lose some weight. (I take it that being fat makes IWB carry harder. But that doesn't make concealed carry impossible. )
I don't really care if people open carry or not. I do sometimes because it is convenient, but most of the time I don't. Not because it is tactically unsound or anything, but because I think I look like a mall ninja wearing an exposed firearm.
From about 1995-2010, VA had a silly law that wouldn't let you conceal in most restaurants. Thus I got a lot of experience open carrying. (Tucking your shirt behind your carry gun as you entered a restaurant became known as the VA Tuck.) M4carbine.net is about relating personal experience, not opinion and heresay.
I've never had an issue. Only comments have been "Excuse me I'm thinking about buying a gun..." or "What kind of pistol is that." The police departments in my area are generally very professional... I've witnessed no drama when LEOs and those open carrying have been in the same place, and that includes restaurants, the state capitol legislative offices, city council meetings, hundred+ person picnics, etc.
Some say open carrying is a target, some say it's a deterrant. There are isolated examples of each, but I suspect neither side will prove dominant. I'll call it a wash.
I'm glad when citizens choose to carry (conceal or open) for self defense. Regardless of which you choose, I encourage you to train, and maintain your situational awareness.
If you choose to carry openly, I recommend you talk to people who have actually done it in your area. I also recommend a retention holster (I use a Safariland ALS). I'd also ask you to remember that while the reason for carrying is self-defense, you've also become a representative for gun owners, and would request that you practice good manners.
Oh, and as this forum is the go-to place for serious AR carbine usage, the forum at www.opencarry.org serves that purpose for those who chose to open carry.
Be safe.
NCPatrolAR
12-11-11, 20:47
In addition to a retention holster; people carrying a firearm, not just OC'ers, should have a some weapon retention training. All holsters can be defeated so a person shouldnt depend on a piece of equipment to retain the weapon alone.
Reagans Rascals
12-11-11, 21:39
Lose some weight, get a concealable pistol and ditch the weapon-mounted light. (You should EDC a flashlight anyway, and will use one that is not attached to your pistol much more often.)
ummm how about no. I have a 55" chest, 36" waist, 17% body fat, and benchpress 380 pounds. Simply "losing weight" is not an issue. I am a big guy, that means just that, a big guy.
As I stated earlier, I am not changing my weapon to suit the needs of the public. I am very proficient with my current setup. That's the end of it.
Not having a weapon mounted light is asinine, the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip is not productive whatsoever. All that does is take away a free hand that could have be otherwise utilized for other tasks.
It seems that this forum, more times than not, turns into a smelting pot of opinions, hypotheticals, and monday morning quarterbacking.
I asked a simple question. That had a simple answer. It did not need to evolve into a multipage discussion regarding rights vs. scared grannies at Walmart.
so at this stage in the game, I have the information necessary to make a sound decision, so lets all say good night.
ProShooter
12-11-11, 22:26
First, welcome to Virginia.
You may certainly OC or carry concealed at your choosing. The permit does not force you to do one or the other. It remains your choice.
You may be interested in a class that we do that will break down some things about carrying in Virginia. - http://proactiveshooters.com/general-course-information-2/intro-to-concealed-carry-in-va/
.....
As I stated earlier, I am not changing my weapon to suit the needs of the public. I am very proficient with my current setup. That's the end of it.
Not having a weapon mounted light is asinine, the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip is not productive whatsoever. All that does is take away a free hand that could have be otherwise utilized for other tasks.
It seems that this forum, more times than not, turns into a smelting pot of opinions, hypotheticals, and monday morning quarterbacking.
I asked a simple question. That had a simple answer. It did not need to evolve into a multipage discussion regarding rights vs. scared grannies at Walmart.
so at this stage in the game, I have the information necessary to make a sound decision, so lets all say good night.
Brother, no one is telling you to change your weapon for the needs of the public, they are merely suggesting that you consider another weapon system for YOU. And the thing about opinions, experiences, and discussion from folks is that it creates a base of knowledge that this forum is known for. You posted a question about the law in the "training and tactics" section, you must have figured that people would analyze your question from that point of view. Not to mention, you fell right into doing the same type of speculation that you are condemning (starting your 3rd post). And frankly, even though you are set in your way, which is fine, there are folks who read these forums and do a balancing act in their own head about these issues and use it to shape their decision making.
Sometimes threads veer too far and the mods bring it back or shut it down. The way this thread progressed just didn't seem to go that way. Folks who could answer your question from the legal point of view did, those who had practical input on carrying open in VA did, and those with cautionary info/experience/opinions shared and argued their point of view. Just my opinion buddy, for what little it's worth.
Edit to add: I prefer a weapon mounted light but to say that to carry a gun without one is asinine is itself an asinine statement. The three finger thing you mention (Rogers or syringe grip I assume) is one of many techniques available. The grip doesn't work well with all hands but can be very effective. It sounds like you could benefit from some formal low-light training. I am not trying to be an ass, that kind of training really helps. But I do agree that a weapon mounted light has many advantages: True two hand shooting with light possible, you can use your free hand for something else (phone) and still keep the light on the threat, quicker access to light when needed, etc... But it the only way to carry? No, not as long as you have training in whatever method you choose based on you needs.
In addition to a retention holster; people carrying a firearm, not just OC'ers, should have a some weapon retention training. All holsters can be defeated so a person shouldnt depend on a piece of equipment to retain the weapon alone.
+1 on this. I can't even begin to express how important this is. I think this is the second time NCPatrolAR has mentioned training in retention if carrying open. This should include some degree of shooting from retention since if someone is trying to defeat your retention of the gun, you'll be close enough to smell his breath an your shooting technique needs to reflect that.
Edit to add: I see that NCPartolAR actually said weapon retention training for both OCers and and concealed carriers. I do agree, however, I would say that an OCer has a much more pressing need for such training.
Not to be an ass but you mean "resident"
Correct. We use the terms interchangeably here. Most often it's heard and written as "citizen of the Commonwealth" or "resident of Virginia".
NCPatrolAR
12-12-11, 07:23
As I stated earlier, I am not changing my weapon to suit the needs of the public. I am very proficient with my current setup. That's the end of it.
No one is telling you to change your weapon in order to appease the public. People are pointing out that your chosen weapon and setup is on the large and that you could have more options if you went with something different. No need to get so defensive over it (or anything else thats been said so far).
Not having a weapon mounted light is asinine,
In my book; having a weapon mounted light is nice to have, but it isnt essential. The handheld light is essential though. The handheld permits you to do a greater number of things such as general searching/illumination use, able to use different angles to light, etc.
the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip is not productive whatsoever.
I would call being able to identify and accurately engage a threat in a period of reduced illumination productive. Handheld lighting techniques enable a shooter to do that very thing. Have you spent much time working different handheld lighting techniques and compared them to what you can do with the weapon mounted light?
It seems that this forum, more times than not, turns into a smelting pot of opinions, hypotheticals, and monday morning quarterbacking.
I asked a simple question. That had a simple answer. It did not need to evolve into a multipage discussion regarding rights vs. scared grannies at Walmart.
This is an internet forum where people discuss things. Most threads are going to experience thread shift to some degree and this one was no different. If you dont like that, you might want to re-examine participating in forums.
NCPatrolAR
12-12-11, 07:29
You posted a question about the law in the "training and tactics" section, you must have figured that people would analyze your question from that point of view.
Actually it started in the Handgun section, but I moved it here due to the nature of the topic.
Edit to add: I see that NCPartolAR actually said weapon retention training for both OCers and and concealed carriers. I do agree, however, I would say that an OCer has a much more pressing need for such training.
People that OC would likely benefit more but I was trying not to offend any OCers with sensitive feelings :nono:
ummm how about no. I have a 55" chest, 36" waist, 17% body fat, and benchpress 380 pounds. Simply "losing weight" is not an issue. I am a big guy, that means just that, a big guy.
Not having a weapon mounted light is asinine, the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip is not productive whatsoever. All that does is take away a free hand that could have be otherwise utilized for other tasks.
55-36= 19" of overage. I'm at a similar ratio and it makes concealing IWB without imprinting easier since the contact point for even t-shirts will be your upper half.
As for having a handheld light... I understand situations that you are speaking of. However, having a light source that isnt fixated to your line of bore can be beneficial if you're somehwhere with a possible attacker and other people are entering the low lit area and you would like to illuminate them to see if they're a secondary or someone such as an LEO who is investiating the commotion. Or possibly coming upon someone injured in an accident at night and you're searching for wounds. The situations abound.
Actually it started in the Handgun section, but I moved it here due to the nature of the topic.
My bad brother, I didn't realize that. I see why you brought it here since tactics quickly came into question. I should leave the officiating to the officials. :suicide2:
People that OC would likely benefit more but I was trying not to offend any OCers with sensitive feelings :nono:
:lol:
55-36= 19" of overage. I'm at a similar ratio and it makes concealing IWB without imprinting easier since the contact point for even t-shirts will be your upper half.
Yep. Big, fit guys have an easier time concealing. I know fat people don't like IWB because it digs into their love handles, but I don't know why the OP implied the fact that he was a bigger guy was a detriment to carrying concealed. Oh, well. He's not interested in our thoughts.
I am going to throw in my .02 Eurocents here.
I love how these threads go downhill and turn into a steaming pile of shit.
OP,
I know you asked about the law, etc.. but to be quite honest regardless of what you hear here. I would be doing some research on the law myself. The internet is a wonderful tool and I bet you can find VA laws online.
Now for the rest. You may be a big guy, but your choice of firearm may not be the greatest. Let's face it. We carry pistols because carrying a long gun is probably not practical, possibly illegal and certainly inconvenient. It also allows us to keep it hidden (aka concealed) to allow us to go about daily life without attracting attention to ourselves. Personally I would love to walk around with my SBR at the store, but it ain't going to happen (even though it is 100% legal).
The only time I open carry is when I am going to our shoot spots. Other than that I carry concealed and I try to keep it as concealed as possible. Even in Arizona open carry will get you looks. When I see goofballs walking around the stores (Walmart, Cabelas, etc..) and they are open carrying I move as far from them as possible. Quite simply I consider them to be mediocre gun owners. Especially when their holster is bouncing around on their hip or worse.
Not to the light. Having a weapons mounted light is great if you are on a SWAT team or in the military. I am not so sure for the average civilian going to Starbucks or whereever. The only time you can use it is if you are involved in a potential shooting. Drawing your weapon to use your light isn't going to be very practical is it?
You would be much better with a handgun without all of the stuff in a good holster under a sweater, jacket, etc...
YMMV.
Not to the light. Having a weapons mounted light is great if you are on a SWAT team or in the military. I am not so sure for the average civilian going to Starbucks or whereever. The only time you can use it is if you are involved in a potential shooting. Drawing your weapon to use your light isn't going to be very practical is it?
You would be much better with a handgun without all of the stuff in a good holster under a sweater, jacket, etc...
YMMV.
I think this is the first time I disagree with you brother ... somewhat. While I think a weaponlight has more usesl in an offensive application, I believe that it also has legitimate defensive uses (if the shooter is trained and can effectively conceal it).
You are right, the only time a civilian should make use of a weaponlight is a situation in which it is appropriate to draw a firearm in the first place. A weaponlight is not a substitute for a handheld flashlight. A flashlight is always essential, a weaponlight is an extra tool for in the toolkit. Proper training is key.
The thing a lot of people with weaponlights don't ever consider is the need to train in flashlight/gun techniques (rogers, harries, neck index, fbi, etc...). They figure that they are covered in a gunfight since they have a light on the gun. Trouble is, as you implied, you aren't going to do an initial scan (if you get spooked) with a weaponlight, you will use a flashlight. If the situation warrants you drawing your gun, you are not going to take the time to draw the gun, put the flashlight back, activate your weaponlight, and then engage. You will engage with the flashlight in your hand so proper training is necessary. Reagans Rascals would be well advised to get trained in, in his words, "the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip" and other techniques which facilitate flashlight/gun shooting even though he has a weaponlight.
But in situations which immediately warrant the weapon to be drawn, the weaponlight is a significant tactical advantage as it allows a fast draw and solid, albeit slightly modified, 2 handed grip on the gun. Even if you use a flashlight/gun technique to engage the threat, post engagement, I would rather put the flashlight away and use the weaponlight thus freeing up my support hand to call 911 (or whatever). Not essential, but makes life easier under the appropriate circumstances.
I agree with you that a weaponlight without a backup flashlight is unacceptable. In addition, a shooter with a flashlight who wants to carry a weaponlight must, in my opinion, make it a priority to learn and become proficient with flashlight/gun techniques.
I think we agree more than disagree but just my .02 cents brother, probably not worth quite as much as your .02 Eurocents :laugh:
Edited to add stuff and change the word illegitimate to legitimate ...OOPS.
Edit to add: And I agree with everything else in your post, especially regarding the OCers walking around with bad holsters flopping around. Scares the shit out of me.
As a certified low-light instructor I agree that it has its uses. But, I think one has to balance that need out. In personal situation having a handheld and being able to carry concealed are more important.
I think this is the first time I disagree with you brother ... somewhat. While I think a weaponlight has more usesl in an offensive application, I believe that it also has legitimate defensive uses (if the shooter is trained and can effectively conceal it).
You are right, the only time a civilian should make use of a weaponlight is a situation in which it is appropriate to draw a firearm in the first place. A weaponlight is not a substitute for a handheld flashlight. A flashlight is always essential, a weaponlight is an extra tool for in the toolkit. Proper training is key.
The thing a lot of people with weaponlights don't ever consider is the need to train in flashlight/gun techniques (rogers, harries, neck index, fbi, etc...). They figure that they are covered in a gunfight since they have a light on the gun. Trouble is, as you implied, you aren't going to do an initial scan (if you get spooked) with a weaponlight, you will use a flashlight. If the situation warrants you drawing your gun, you are not going to take the time to draw the gun, put the flashlight back, activate your weaponlight, and then engage. You will engage with the flashlight in your hand so proper training is necessary. Reagans Rascals would be well advised to get trained in, in his words, "the 3 finger pistol/flash light grip" and other techniques which facilitate flashlight/gun shooting even though he has a weaponlight.
But in situations which immediately warrant the weapon to be drawn, the weaponlight is a significant tactical advantage as it allows a fast draw and solid, albeit slightly modified, 2 handed grip on the gun. Even if you use a flashlight/gun technique to engage the threat, post engagement, I would rather put the flashlight away and use the weaponlight thus freeing up my support hand to call 911 (or whatever). Not essential, but makes life easier under the appropriate circumstances.
I agree with you that a weaponlight without a backup flashlight is unacceptable. In addition, a shooter with a flashlight who wants to carry a weaponlight must, in my opinion, make it a priority to learn and become proficient with flashlight/gun techniques.
I think we agree more than disagree but just my .02 cents brother, probably not worth quite as much as your .02 Eurocents :laugh:
Edited to add stuff and change the word illegitimate to legitimate ...OOPS.
Edit to add: And I agree with everything else in your post, especially regarding the OCers walking around with bad holsters flopping around. Scares the shit out of me.
As a certified low-light instructor I agree that it has its uses. But, I think one has to balance that need out. In personal situation having a handheld and being able to carry concealed are more important.
Agreed brother.
I posted earlier that I always have a flashlight on me but I winter carry a g19 w/weaponlight and summer carry a g26 w/o weaponlight. I do this for the exact reason you mention here. I prefer the g19 w/weaponlight but during the summer, I would have to sacrifice concealibility to carry it.
Like you said, "one has to balance the need out."
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