View Full Version : My DDM4 V5 Middy vs New BCM Middy Challenge (Thanks Grant!)
I just picked up a new BCM middy pieced together from a complete upper and lower, both from Grant. The upper consists of a 16” BCM lightweight BFH mid-length barrel with FSP, DD Omega 9.0 rail, and BattleComp 1.0 and standard BCM lower with Tango Down pistol grip. I added a BCM BCG, Gunfighter Mod 4 CH, Tango Down stubby VFG, DD A1.5 rear sight, and Magpul MOE stock to round out the package. I ordered it on Black Friday and had the upper and lower in hand in a little over a week.
Grant was great with answering all of my numerous questions along the way and was awesome in putting my order together. Quick turnaround, even with my particular component requests and fast shipping, which probably cost way more than the shipping charge. Great service and my only complaint is the probable impact on my savings account. :smile:
The primary purpose of this BCM is to answer a lot of my X vs Y features and manufacturer questions. My first AR is a DDM4 V5 with EoTech 512 absolute co-witnessed with Troy BUIS, and Troy rail covers. For my second AR, I wanted to try a BCM, LMT or Noveske, a FSP and fixed rear sight with lower 1/3 co-witness with an Aimpoint RDS, a compensator/brake, and a light-weight barrel. I plan on running it with the iron sights until cash frees up for either a T-1 or other Aimpoint RDS. After I get the RDS, I’m planning on putting these two up against each other in my own Daniel Defense vs. BCM challenge. Definitely not an apples to apples comparison, but I wanted to compare the features that I typically would get feedback like “it basically comes down to personal preference, but you can’t go wrong either way”. I want to try the different features head-to-head and hope to take both to a carbine class sometime next year and figure out what features I like best. I’m still pretty new to AR’s, so this is a very much a learning process for me.
I took both to the range today¸ where I had planned on sighting in the BCM and seeing how it ran with both XM193 and XM855, test it with different magazines, and test out the BattleComp. It ran flawlessly, even with the cheap 10 round metal ProMags that I need to use with the Lead Sled. I had a few malfunctions (FTF) when running the ProMags with my DDM4. Only ran through about 140 rounds, but I’m liking everything about it so far.
I didn’t intend on starting the “Daniel Defense vs BCM Challenge” today since I brought the DDM4 just to run some steel cased ammo through it and see how it did (first time running steel cased ammo through any AR). However, I couldn’t help but start comparing the two. Not an apples to apples comparison, since they both have (or eventually will have) much different components, but just initial/overall impressions. The BCM seemed to run much dirtier than the DDM4. I only went through 140 rounds today and there seemed to be noticably more carbon build-up and in more/different locations than I had noticed on the DDM4. For example, when I pulled the bolt, the curved portion of the bolt behind the gas rings was dry and caked with carbon. I know I lubed that area before shooting. I also noticed a lot of carbon on the buffer and in the buffer tube. I have not noticed that much carbon in the DDM4, particularly on the buffer and in the buffer tube. Neither affected function (I think the Filthy 14 was MUCH worse) and I’ll take it as a warning to be more aware of lube in future use.
I also noticed a difference in the ejection pattern between the two. The DDM4 ejection pattern with XM193 and XM855 was consistently to the 4-5 o’clock position whereas the BCM would consistently eject (with the same ammo) to around 2 o’clock position with dents on the side of the brass in about the same spot. Not sure if the difference in the ejection pattern and seemingly “dirtier” operation of the BCM are related. The BCM functioned just fine, so I assume it’s not a big deal.
I thought my DDM4 was pretty light compared to my friend’s Colt 6920, but the BCM is MUCH lighter than my DDM4. Yeah the DDM4 wears an EoTech and Troy rail covers and the BCM has a light-weight barrel, but still. I’m leaning toward the lighter weight and thinking of replacing the Troy rail covers on my DDM4 with the basic ladder covers. One minor thing that I noticed is that the anodized finish of the DDM4 appears more glossy/smooth and the BCM appears more flat/porous. The finish of the DDM4 seems to keep oil on its surface and the finish of the BCM seems to soak it in. Nothing that would affect function, at least I don’t see how it would, but just something I noticed.
One side note on the DDM4 and steel cased ammo. I ran 40 each of TulaAmmo 55 gr and 62 gr .223 Rem. On the 55 gr, the bolt failed to lock back after the last round half on half of the 5 round strings. The 62 locked back after the last round on all of the 5 round strings, but I got a failure to extract on the second round on one of the strings. I’ve read where the steel cased ammo tends to start jamming due to build-up of carbon around the casing in the chamber since the steel casing doesn’t expand like the brass casing. Not sure if that contributed to the failure to extract, but I assumed so since a likely cause would be the sticking of the spent casing in the chamber. The spent casing was about a third of the way out and I had a tough time pulling the magazine. I don’t think I will end up running steel cased ammo much, but I wanted to see how it performed. Is there any way to improve how steel cased ammo runs in an AR? At this point I think I'll likely stick with brass cased ammo, but just curious.
Overall, I think it’s going to be very tough for me to decide a “winner” for this challenge. I think it’s going to end up a preference for one of them for a particular application (say carbine training) and the other for another particular application (say USPSA rifle matches). It’s just that I have to try them both to satisfy my curiosity. I’m still curious as to carbine vs middy, trying Colt/LMT/Noveske, and a LMT SOPMOD/B5 stock, so there’s likely another future competitor, or two, for this challenge. :laugh:
The competitors.
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i369/drck1000/IMG_2460.jpg
Dents/marks on brass from ejection from the BCM
http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i369/drck1000/IMG_2467.jpg
Well if you do put an LMT in the mix, if it is like mine, it is boringly reliable. Mine does not have a high round count, 1500 or so, but has never hiccupped once.
Even ran some Wolf steel cased ammo at a relatives house one afternoon and it ran through that just fine.
Really looking at getting a BCM for my son.
Is that DD rear sight on backwards ?
Is that DD rear sight on backwards ?
It is.
I had a few malfunctions (FTF) when running the ProMags with my DDM4
Render them safe with a hammer. You'll thank me later.
Dents in the brass is a sign of strong ejection of the empty case... not a problem in my book.
I doubt you'll have issues with either one. It will likely come down to which one feels better to you.
I can't really tell from the pics, but it looks like that DD has an A2 birdcage. That will be hard to compare with the Battlecomp. If you care about comparing the feel I would use the same flash/comp on both.
I have both examples in your challenge. A DDM4V3 and a BCM 16 LW midlength (on an RRA lower). Both are great rifles and function very well. My DDM4V3 did NOT like Tula. I had many many extraction problems, some which required me to use the mortar method and even more which required a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle to tap out the case. Very disappointing and as a result I will never use Tula in any AR again. I have fired Wolf through both and am happy to say that there were no problems what so ever. Thanks for the report.
If by deciding a "winner" you mean simply liking one of your rifles better than the other, then great.
But if you mean trying to quantify and qualify an assertion that one company is "better" than the other I would caution you against that.
In the end, your preference is likely to come down to the configuration of the rifles; mainly FSB vs longer rail and A2 vs BC.
Also remember what they say about "samples of one."
I'm not knocking your post or your intent, but again, I would caution you against in the future going around saying "X is better than Z" based off of your limited experience with a sample of one.
With your ejection pattern in mind; it sounds like the BCM is over gassed. Brass should be ejecting 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock. Your bolt and other things being dirtier support this. Might be something to play with if it bugs you.
DeltaSierra
12-11-11, 10:46
With your ejection pattern in mind; it sounds like the BCM is over gassed. Brass should be ejecting 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock. Your bolt and other things being dirtier support this. Might be something to play with if it bugs you.
Nonsense....
Read this thread before continuing to spread that nonsense about ejection pattern around....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89083
polymorpheous
12-11-11, 10:56
My experience with DD barrels has been they run their gas ports on the smaller side.
Out of the 3 I used for builds, 2 would short stroke, (among other things), with lower pressure ammo.
Keep in mind that the mid-length gas system does not have a uniform spec for gas port size.
I can tell you that one of my BCM mid-length uppers has a gas port of .062".
The 2 DD barrels I've worked on that short stroked, the gas ports were in the high .05"s.
Measuring was done with a standard digital calipers.
I fully realize that there are better ways of measuring gas ports.
As far as ejection patterns...
I don't care where it ejects really, I just want to see it eject consistently.
My own experience... YMMV.
Nonsense....
Read this thread before continuing to spread that nonsense about ejection pattern around....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=89083
Overreact much? I said, "Might be something to play with if it bugs you."
Settle down.
polymorpheous
12-11-11, 12:50
Overreact much? I said, "Might be something to play with if it bugs you."
Settle down.
Direction of ejection is a non-issue.
If by deciding a "winner" you mean simply liking one of your rifles better than the other, then great.
Yeah, pretty much that.
But if you mean trying to quantify and qualify an assertion that one company is "better" than the other I would caution you against that.
In the end, your preference is likely to come down to the configuration of the rifles; mainly FSB vs longer rail and A2 vs BC.
Also remember what they say about "samples of one."
I'm not knocking your post or your intent, but again, I would caution you against in the future going around saying "X is better than Z" based off of your limited experience with a sample of one.
Quick response since I have to run. Just thought that I should clarify since I can see how the intentions of my post could be misinterpreted. I see your point and I want to clarify that my intentions are NOT what you are cautioning against.
My primary intent for this challenge is to compare different set-ups, features and components head-to-head against each other and find out what works best for ME or what features I prefer. I figured having them on two ARs so I can shoot them side-by-side would help me more than trying the same AR and swapping out components. I also wanted to try other AR manufacturers/brands, so figured that this was a good opportunity to try out a different brand as I've been wanting to try a BCM, LMT, Noveske, Colt, etc.
My intention is not to establish that one brand, component or feature is "better" than the other in a global sense. Again, just to find out what I prefer. Sure, if someone asks for my opinion on one vs the other, I'll share my opinion based on my experience , which understandibly is a very limited one in both length of time and breadth of experience handling quanity and variety (my two samples of one).
In these types of things, my typical response would be to share what I prefer and what works best for ME and encourage the person to try both out and see for themselves. Just thought I would share my journey through that process. If you are are at the range with me, you can try my rifles to see. If someone is going through the same search as me, maybe some of this will help.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far.
And yes, the DD A1.5 is backwards. The box didn't include instructions and the pic on the box had it oriented that way, but not mounted on a rail. I thought it was pretty obvious. I should've known better as I've been on Daniel Defense's website A LOT lately.
Direction of ejection is a non-issue.
For who exactly? For you? For me? Certainly not for everyone.
I collect my brass when I'm done shooting. Sometimes weather or drive time does not permit me to use an outside range. When I do have to go indoors, if brass ejects forward of the firing line, it's gone. It just happened to me recently with a new gun. I wasn't mad, but I'd like to get it squared away (even if not soon) so I can collect my brass.
Like I said if it bugs him, he can address it. For anyone arguing it's nonsense, leave it alone. You don't have control over all aspects of shooting or when and how a gun will be used.
Sorry for mucking up your thread, drck1000.
Good luck with your experiment and your rifles.
For who exactly? For you? For me? Certainly not for everyone.
I collect my brass when I'm done shooting. Sometimes weather or drive time does not permit me to use an outside range. When I do have to go indoors, if brass ejects forward of the firing line, it's gone. It just happened to me recently with a new gun. I wasn't mad, but I'd like to get it squared away (even if not soon) so I can collect my brass.
Like I said if it bugs him, he can address it. For anyone arguing it's nonsense, leave it alone. You don't have control over all aspects of shooting or when and how a gun will be used.
that's not what you said. you claimed that it was an indicator that the gun was overgassed. this is simply not true...
polymorpheous
12-11-11, 13:34
For who exactly? For you? For me? Certainly not for everyone.
I collect my brass when I'm done shooting. Sometimes weather or drive time does not permit me to use an outside range. When I do have to go indoors, if brass ejects forward of the firing line, it's gone. It just happened to me recently with a new gun. I wasn't mad, but I'd like to get it squared away (even if not soon) so I can collect my brass.
Like I said if it bugs him, he can address it. For anyone arguing it's nonsense, leave it alone. You don't have control over all aspects of shooting or when and how a gun will be used.
If collecting brass at an indoor range is important, you can buy different buffer weights to achieve your desired result.
It takes 1 minute to change out the buffer.
uncommon commoner
12-11-11, 15:24
If collecting brass at an indoor range is important, you can buy different buffer weights to achieve your desired result.
It takes 1 minute to change out the buffer.
Or this.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR033-7.html
polymorpheous
12-11-11, 15:34
Or this.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR033-7.html
That's just asking for a malfunction.
That's just asking for a malfunction.
A agree. I find using the largest mesh tarp I can get with a pin or weight in each corner and centered on each side works well for most types of shooting I do.
<joke>But, don't you get tired of having guns that run 100%? Why not get some malfunctions going? Make life interesting :D </joke>
All else being equal, a smaller gas port helps the recoil of an AR feel "softer" while a larger gas port helps ensure positive extraction. Instead of the BCM being "over-gassed" it's possible the DD with a smaller port is "under-gassed".
drck1000, this sounds like a fun comparison. The only way you'll know for sure what works and what doesn't is to shoot. I wish I had the funds available to compare various ARs side by side!
Or this.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR033-7.html
That's just asking for a malfunction.
Indeed.
I just used one today when sighting in a rifle. I would never ever ever use this thing if you plan on moving around with your rifle, or significantly manipulating it in any way.
That being said- if your taking your sweet time shooting from a bench and check carefully that it's not out of alignment and rolling the cases back into the receiver, then it does do it's job. Takes all the fun out of hunting for your brass in the grass though. :p
I'll second the tarp method, although if your brass is hot enough it may melt onto or through a standard tarp. Something like a drop cloth might work better.
Well if you do put an LMT in the mix, if it is like mine, it is boringly reliable. Mine does not have a high round count, 1500 or so, but has never hiccupped once.
Even ran some Wolf steel cased ammo at a relatives house one afternoon and it ran through that just fine.
Really looking at getting a BCM for my son.
My local dealer mentioned that they can probably get a good deal during the upcoming Shot Show on LMTs, so that's got me interested in the MRP with the mid-length gas. I've only seen an upper with mid-length gas on one online dealer's website, so not sure on their availability.
Render them safe with a hammer. You'll thank me later.
I've heard that before. They are the only mags that I have that fit when I use the Lead Sled when sighting in, so I don't use them very often.
I will eventually have to get a few of the Magpul ones with the 10 round limiters since one of the local shooting clubs doesn't allow magazines with capacity greater than 10.
Dents in the brass is a sign of strong ejection of the empty case... not a problem in my book.
I doubt you'll have issues with either one. It will likely come down to which one feels better to you.
I can't really tell from the pics, but it looks like that DD has an A2 birdcage. That will be hard to compare with the Battlecomp. If you care about comparing the feel I would use the same flash/comp on both.
Not really worried or concerned about the dents in the brass. Just something that I noticed that didn't happen with the DDM4. I don't reload, but I go collect the spent brass to sell to a recycler. I could use the money for more ammo.
I don't expect any issues with either and believe that they are both high quality. It was very close between DD and BCM for my first AR, so this could have very well gone with a BCM Recce first and DDM4 V1/V3 second.
Yeah, the DD has the stock A2. That is actually one of the comparisons that I wanted to try head to head (A2 vs compensator or brake). I was initially leaning toward the FSC 556, but decided to go with the BC first due to a number of good reviews and feedback here. I was thinking of eventually trying the FSC on the DD. Yeah they are different weights and the BCM has a light weight barrel, so a little bit of apples vs oranges.
I have both examples in your challenge. A DDM4V3 and a BCM 16 LW midlength (on an RRA lower). Both are great rifles and function very well. My DDM4V3 did NOT like Tula. I had many many extraction problems, some which required me to use the mortar method and even more which required a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle to tap out the case. Very disappointing and as a result I will never use Tula in any AR again. I have fired Wolf through both and am happy to say that there were no problems what so ever. Thanks for the report.
I've read a few reports on how the DD mid-length gas doesn't do well with Tula, particularly the 55 gr version. But that was the only steel cased ammo that the local dealer has in stock, so I figured I'd give it a chance and see for myself. Answered that question and maybe it's time to try Wolf or other steel cased ammo.
How is your BCM configured? FSP? What do you find that you use each for?
<joke>But, don't you get tired of having guns that run 100%? Why not get some malfunctions going? Make life interesting :D </joke>
I guess I could make life interesting and run more steel cased ammo. :D
I thought about trying to run one of these through 2-3k rounds before cleaning to prove it to learn how to run them dirty and to get more of a comfort level letting it get that way. I clean most of my gear after use. Golf stuff, fishing gear, etc. So it's a habit with me to clean the gear before putting them away.
All else being equal, a smaller gas port helps the recoil of an AR feel "softer" while a larger gas port helps ensure positive extraction. Instead of the BCM being "over-gassed" it's possible the DD with a smaller port is "under-gassed".
drck1000, this sounds like a fun comparison. The only way you'll know for sure what works and what doesn't is to shoot. I wish I had the funds available to compare various ARs side by side!
I've gotten feedback that if the DD is having trouble extracting steel cased after less than 100 rounds, it may be under-gassed. The DD works just fine for me with XM193 and XM855, which I primarily shoot, so that all that matter to me. As for ejection pattern, as long at it runs and the brass isn't hitting me in the face, I'm good.
I am very much looking forward to when I can get a RDS for the BCM and run both in carbine classes. I guess I am always curious on what is on the other side of the fence. This AR was an early Christmas present. Otherwise, it will likely be a while before another competitor gets added to the mix.
As far as ejection patterns...
I don't care where it ejects really, I just want to see it eject consistently.
My own experience... YMMV.
That's pretty much how I feel about it. Both eject pretty consistently, but I haven't put that many rounds through the BCM yet.
Again, just something that I noted differing between the two. One of the reasons why I noticed the ejection pattern for the DDM4 was that it wasn't throwing brass directly at the shooter in the next stall at the range. I've since gotten a net to catch the brass (not the one that is mounted on the upper receiver), so I need to figure out where to put it.
Your observations on the gas port sizes are interesting though. I have read about the mid-length not having a standard.
Not sure what buffer you are running but IIRC BCM suggests a H2 in midlengths when running milspec type ammo and a carbine buffer when using lower power stuff.
Mine functions but sluggishly with PMC which is pretty mild ammo. Wolf functions fine in my gun. I suspect your problems with Tula are more due to under powered loads than steel case.
uncommon commoner
12-12-11, 09:14
Indeed.
I just used one today when sighting in a rifle. I would never ever ever use this thing if you plan on moving around with your rifle, or significantly manipulating it in any way.
That being said- if your taking your sweet time shooting from a bench and check carefully that it's not out of alignment and rolling the cases back into the receiver, then it does do it's job. Takes all the fun out of hunting for your brass in the grass though. :p
I'll second the tarp method, although if your brass is hot enough it may melt onto or through a standard tarp. Something like a drop cloth might work better.
1. Apologies to the O.P. for continuing a thread hijack and getting off topic.
2. Brass catcher was mentioned for a reply about having to pick up/ not being able to pick up brass at an indoor range. It was a suggestion for that purpose alone. It was an alternative to farting around with (and dropping more dough on) different buffers for a very limited application.
Not sure what buffer you are running but IIRC BCM suggests a H2 in midlengths when running milspec type ammo and a carbine buffer when using lower power stuff.
Mine functions but sluggishly with PMC which is pretty mild ammo. Wolf functions fine in my gun. I suspect your problems with Tula are more due to under powered loads than steel case.
Both have H buffers that came with them. I will run the new one for a while more and see how it does. I may experiment with other buffers just to see how they function with say carbine and H2 buffers, but not really to change how it ejects. I'd like to keep the variables to a minimum, otherwise I'll end up with more AR's to try the different components. :p
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