View Full Version : NY Triggers -- (rumor) NYPD brass to cops: stop using Kahr K-9
Somehow I ended up on a "daily" news list called "Tactical Wire". I never subscribed so I don't know where it comes from or anything (have not looked to deeply -- I skim it and delete)
Today there was a little blurb:
---
Around the Water Cooler: Rule 3
The blurb from the New York Daily News read, "NYPD brass to cops: Stop using Kahr K-9 semi-automatic pistol as an off-duty gun; Weapon's light trigger blamed for accidental shootings." This trigger that's "so light it's been blamed for a series of accidental discharges" has a nominal trigger pull of 7 ― pounds. NYPD brass wanted a trigger pull of 13 pounds.
A thirteen pound trigger on a small pistol weighing 23 ounces . . . no wonder they're not concerned about hit percentages of 16%! I think they'd worry if the round hit the proverbial busload of nuns. That 13 pound trigger is practically unmanageable. Since Kahr has trouble making a gun with a substandard trigger pull, NYPD had to come up with an answer.
Their solution is to ban officers from carrying any of the 5,000 Kahr pistols they've purchased for the purpose of carrying off-duty. From my knowledge of the Kahr line, there's a few things I know.
1. They don't go off when dropped.
2. They only fire when the trigger is pulled.
3. Keeping one's finger off the trigger until the sights come onto the threat and you form the intention to fire will prevent unintended discharges.
Seem easy? A few years back, I got an annual report from NYPD. From their projected losses, they expect a total number of officers around 35,000. We had less than 150 per year, reserves included. I can't imagine the cluster that scheduling firearms training could be with 35,000 troops. To our trainers for hire out there, these are in-service troops a large percentage of whom don't want to be there and couldn't care less. NYPD had thousands of officers who never made it to "required annual range qualification and training."
This makes it tough to get simple concepts across.
I imagine my class on gun safety would be met with a veteran who'd say, "Finger off the trigger? If I've pulled the gun out, I'm not wasting time trying to find the trigger when something happens. Gun out of holster, finger on trigger - just like DeNiro!"
Well, it's your manslaughter trial, not mine.
Keep in touch.
That does seem like a pretty stupid article. not to concentrate negativity on the LEO aspect of it much but a Manslaughter trial for a LEO? That doesn't happen that often. ..well not as often as it does for civilians. :mad:
F-Trooper05
12-13-11, 11:19
Are there any other major departments in U.S. that require a 12 or 13 pound pull? If not, then NYPD might want to take that as a clue. Then again, if it were up to Bloomberg I'm sure that their officers would be armed with nothing more than rape whistles.
That does seem like a pretty stupid article. not to concentrate negativity on the LEO aspect of it much but a Manslaughter trial for a LEO? That doesn't happen that often. ..well not as often as it does for civilians. :mad:
Tell that to former BART Officer Merhserle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
This whole thing is a blatant case of a firearm taking the rap for poor training.
Tell that to former BART Officer Merhserle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
This whole thing is a blatant case of a firearm taking the rap for poor training. Absolutely the case. Ever since I can remember the NYPD firearms policies have always been a convoluted excercise in futility and politically motivated all the way back to the sixties.
Allowing NYPD brass to drive defensive handgun specifications is like allowing Iran to pilot U.S. drones. Oh...wait...:rolleyes:
Unforunalty it is usually the brass that make the weapon choices due to policy, budget etc. And most big departments and agencies don't bring their weakest shooter up in skill but instead dumb everyone down to the weakest link. That why it is important for a Leo to train on their own.
At least NYPD has a choice on off duty weapons. I work for a federal agency where our duty gun is the only off duty approved firearm.
mikelowrey
12-10-12, 00:18
Somehow I ended up on a "daily" news list called "Tactical Wire". I never subscribed so I don't know where it comes from or anything (have not looked to deeply -- I skim it and delete)
Today there was a little blurb:
---
Around the Water Cooler: Rule 3
The blurb from the New York Daily News read, "NYPD brass to cops: Stop using Kahr K-9 semi-automatic pistol as an off-duty gun; Weapon's light trigger blamed for accidental shootings." This trigger that's "so light it's been blamed for a series of accidental discharges" has a nominal trigger pull of 7 ― pounds. NYPD brass wanted a trigger pull of 13 pounds.
A thirteen pound trigger on a small pistol weighing 23 ounces . . . no wonder they're not concerned about hit percentages of 16%! I think they'd worry if the round hit the proverbial busload of nuns. That 13 pound trigger is practically unmanageable. Since Kahr has trouble making a gun with a substandard trigger pull, NYPD had to come up with an answer.
Their solution is to ban officers from carrying any of the 5,000 Kahr pistols they've purchased for the purpose of carrying off-duty. From my knowledge of the Kahr line, there's a few things I know.
1. They don't go off when dropped.
2. They only fire when the trigger is pulled.
3. Keeping one's finger off the trigger until the sights come onto the threat and you form the intention to fire will prevent unintended discharges.
Seem easy? A few years back, I got an annual report from NYPD. From their projected losses, they expect a total number of officers around 35,000. We had less than 150 per year, reserves included. I can't imagine the cluster that scheduling firearms training could be with 35,000 troops. To our trainers for hire out there, these are in-service troops a large percentage of whom don't want to be there and couldn't care less. NYPD had thousands of officers who never made it to "required annual range qualification and training."
This makes it tough to get simple concepts across.
I imagine my class on gun safety would be met with a veteran who'd say, "Finger off the trigger? If I've pulled the gun out, I'm not wasting time trying to find the trigger when something happens. Gun out of holster, finger on trigger - just like DeNiro!"
Well, it's your manslaughter trial, not mine.
Keep in touch.
"Technically" they banned them because Kahr didn't bring the trigger pull to NYPD's standards.
Are there any other major departments in U.S. that require a 12 or 13 pound pull? If not, then NYPD might want to take that as a clue. Then again, if it were up to Bloomberg I'm sure that their officers would be armed with nothing more than rape whistles.
You are right. Unfortunately the people who makes this decisions, sometimes don't even know where they are standing :)
I've got a Kahr K9. I'm not quite sure how you could ever have an AD with a Kahr trigger. The pull is so long you have to put some concentrated effort into making the gun go bang. Poor or non-existent training = bad results.
S. Galbraith
12-10-12, 09:21
You are right. Unfortunately the people who makes this decisions, sometimes don't even know where they are standing :)
Usually the higher ups who select a duty weapon for an agency will never have to carry the weapon. They are either the agency know-it-all, or are grossly incompetent.
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-10-12, 09:55
This whole thing reminds me of what my wifes department is doing right now. Wasting money, 2 years ago they purchased 1k plus new pistols. I told her flat out against me better judgment "they are giving you a piece of shit". That purchase was driven by the former police chief now the mayor. Since then the pistols themselves are falling apart. They are now buying 1k plus new Glock 21 to issue and retrain all officers on again.
The point to all this is these decisions should not be driven from the top down. The instructors collectively selected 2 pistols last time after they performed a very thorough evaluation. The Px4 storm was not selected by the trainers the glock and M&P were.
Tell that to former BART Officer Merhserle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
This whole thing is a blatant case of a firearm taking the rap for poor training.
Yes it was. They left him hanging on that.
mikelowrey
12-10-12, 18:41
Usually the higher ups who select a duty weapon for an agency will never have to carry the weapon. They are either the agency know-it-all, or are grossly incompetent.
Absolutely correct.
JBecker 72
12-10-12, 19:09
Yes it was. They left him hanging on that.
Not really, that guy has been out of jail for over a year. How long do you think an ordinary citizen would have served for having a ND into a guys throat? Probably more than 16 months.
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silviacrazed
12-10-12, 19:25
It's amazing how departments put a ridiculously heavy trigger in their guns to make up for poor training. I know a local department with a heavy trigger and have had recent issues with people not shooting well...low and behold they've tested a standard trigger and amazingly enough, their worst shooters passed. How about take the time to train people instead of just hoping your officers don't shoot the wrong person because the can't hit their target with an obnoxiously heavy trigger.
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mikelowrey
12-10-12, 19:34
It's amazing how departments put a ridiculously heavy trigger in their guns to make up for poor training. I know a local department with a heavy trigger and have had recent issues with people not shooting well...low and behold they've tested a standard trigger and amazingly enough, their worst shooters passed. How about take the time to train people instead of just hoping your officers don't shoot the wrong person because the can't hit their target with an obnoxiously heavy trigger.
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That's what happens in a liberal state. They way they think is liability and that's all. They don't like bein the center of the attention in the news that's why they do what they do. Is like I said before, is almost 2013 and NYPD does not carry tasers except supervisor and ESU and don't even mention rifles, ohh lord...
silviacrazed
12-10-12, 19:38
That's what happens in a liberal state. They way they think is liability and that's all. They don't like bein the center of the attention in the news that's why they do what they do. Is like I said before, is almost 2013 and NYPD does not carry tasers except supervisor and ESU and don't even mention rifles, ohh lord...
I'm in the south and a major department here still doesn't issue takers across the board. It's pathetic how cities will constitute a higher risk for officers just to look less aggressive to the civilian population. The sad thing is, they are great deterrents and would save on paying out workers comp claims for officers injured in fights
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mikelowrey
12-10-12, 19:43
I'm in the south and a major department here still doesn't issue takers across the board. It's pathetic how cities will constitute a higher risk for officers just to look less aggressive to the civilian population. The sad thing is, they are great deterrents and would save on paying out workers comp claims for officers injured in fights
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You are absolutely correct, and I totally agree with you. Even the tasers website they show the stats on how many injuries could be avoided to the officer and perp if its used as well as fatalities etc.. etc.. Is just stupid that they want us to look like london or tokio soon....
BTW i didnt mean to hijack the thread with a different topic, I just wanted to highlight the other factors that make this great dept special ...
silviacrazed
12-10-12, 19:50
You are absolutely correct, and I totally agree with you. Even the tasers website they show the stats on how many injuries could be avoided to the officer and perp if its used as well as fatalities etc.. etc.. Is just stupid that they want us to look like london or tokio soon....
BTW i didnt mean to hijack the thread with a different topic, I just wanted to highlight the other factors that make this great dept special ...
I could go round and around about asinine policies in departments....
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mskdgunman
12-10-12, 19:51
I just thank God I don't have to work there. The last time I was in NY to visit the 9-11 memorial, I saw at least three different handguns being carried by diferent NYPD divisions. I saw Glocks, Sigs and I believe some older Smiths. I'm not sure who was carrying what but I thought that was kind of stupid. I'm just glad that for a small agency, mine is fairly progressive when it comes to firearms thanks for a lead firearms instructor/Captain who is pretty sharp. I fail to see how giving a weapon a heavier trigger pull is conducive to better shooting, but as has been pointed out, the admin weenies who make these decisions haven't pulled their firearm in years.
mikelowrey
12-10-12, 19:55
I just thank God I don't have to work there. The last time I was in NY to visit the 9-11 memorial, I saw at least three different handguns being carried by diferent NYPD divisions. I saw Glocks, Sigs and I believe some older Smiths. I'm not sure who was carrying what but I thought that was kind of stupid. I'm just glad that for a small agency, mine is fairly progressive when it comes to firearms thanks for a lead firearms instructor/Captain who is pretty sharp. I fail to see how giving a weapon a heavier trigger pull is conducive to better shooting, but as has been pointed out, the admin weenies who make these decisions haven't pulled their firearm in years.
Yeah man, We currently have 3 type of gun we can choose from, Glock 19, the Sig P226 and S&W 5946. I used to have the Smith but I switch to glock since that specific smith is basically almost out of the window in terms of production. Eventually they will come with the MP but their testing standards are "high" and if Smith does not meet that, then bye bye.
I'm not a LEO, so please correct me if I'm wrong here, but...
NYC, depending on the time of day, can have anywhere between 7-9 million people within city limits. It is the largest city in the US, and is one of the top five largest cities in the world. The NYPD has around 40,000 officers. To put into perspective how large the NYPD is, the LAPD has around 9,000 officers.
It is not surprising to me that there are more NDs in larger departments with more people. A department that has 1 ND a year with a total of 100 officers, IMO, has given its officers the same amount of training as a department that has 400 NDs a year with a total of 40,000 officers.
It is also not surprising to me that they want to limit liability by raising the trigger weight due to having so many employees with loaded guns on their waist. It is probably cheaper to raise the trigger weight and reduce the potential for a ND that way, than to properly train 40,000 people to be perfect with a pistol.
I'm not saying this is right, I'm just looking at this realistically, and how I would imagine the person in charge thinks of it. I think a Glock with a 12+ pound trigger is ridiculous and unnecessary, and I think anyone paid to carry a pistol should be proficient with it.
silviacrazed
12-10-12, 19:57
Yeah man, We currently have 3 type of gun we can choose from, Glock 19, the Sig P226 and S&W 5946. I used to have the Smith but I switch to glock since that specific smith is basically almost out of the window in terms of production. Eventually they will come with the MP but their testing standards are "high" and if Smith does not meet that, then bye bye.
Ours is leaving the M&P. Having issues getting a steady supply of parts and seeing some issues. Rumor is going to the G22. I'm sad to see the M&P go, it's way more comfortable to shoot
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mikelowrey
12-10-12, 20:24
I'm not a LEO, so please correct me if I'm wrong here, but...
NYC, depending on the time of day, can have anywhere between 7-9 million people within city limits. It is the largest city in the US, and is one of the top five largest cities in the world. The NYPD has around 40,000 officers. To put into perspective how large the NYPD is, the LAPD has around 9,000 officers.
It is not surprising to me that there are more NDs in larger departments with more people. A department that has 1 ND a year with a total of 100 officers, IMO, has given its officers the same amount of training as a department that has 400 NDs a year with a total of 40,000 officers.
It is also not surprising to me that they want to limit liability by raising the trigger weight due to having so many employees with loaded guns on their waist. It is probably cheaper to raise the trigger weight and reduce the potential for a ND that way, than to properly train 40,000 people to be perfect with a pistol.
I'm not saying this is right, I'm just looking at this realistically, and how I would imagine the person in charge thinks of it. I think a Glock with a 12+ pound trigger is ridiculous and unnecessary, and I think anyone paid to carry a pistol should be proficient with it.
You hit the spot baby, although the only correction I will say here is that is actually 35,000 instead of 40 but you are correct in every detail you just pointed out, it is actually cheaper for them to just add the 12 pound trigger.
mikelowrey
12-10-12, 20:27
Ours is leaving the M&P. Having issues getting a steady supply of parts and seeing some issues. Rumor is going to the G22. I'm sad to see the M&P go, it's way more comfortable to shoot
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I personally haven't touch a MP yet but I have co-workers who have it just for range shooting and they say they love it. I also have seen people commenting on the issues that are arising with the gun, but hey, is a tool, and tools tend to have problems.
They are "in the testing" process with the gun, and think they have been for the past 2 years, but hey, it is the NYPD.
silviacrazed
12-10-12, 20:33
I personally haven't touch a MP yet but I have co-workers who have it just for range shooting and they say they love it. I also have seen people commenting on the issues that are arising with the gun, but hey, is a tool, and tools tend to have problems.
They are "in the testing" process with the gun, and think they have been for the past 2 years, but hey, it is the NYPD.
I sold my glock to buy one. Much more ergonomic. I'll never leave the platform for a striker fired gun.
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mikelowrey
12-10-12, 20:35
I sold my glock to buy one. Much more ergonomic. I'll never leave the platform for a striker fired gun.
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My choice was the MP instead of the glock if it was available, And I been wanting it since I heard the rumor at the range about the MP, and I thought it was going to come out quick but, 2 years passed and still not here, then decided for the glock, the sig is to big for my hand.
silviacrazed
12-10-12, 20:37
My choice was the MP instead of the glock if it was available, And I been wanting it since I heard the rumor at the range about the MP, and I thought it was going to come out quick but, 2 years passed and still not here, then decided for the glock, the sig is to big for my hand.
I'm really wanting to get the new M&P CORE. I like that Smith is moving towards catering to people who will run their guns hard, but they need to keep production up to support repairs.
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mikelowrey
12-10-12, 20:44
I'm really wanting to get the new M&P CORE. I like that Smith is moving towards catering to people who will run their guns hard, but they need to keep production up to support repairs.
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Yep that gun is very tempting... LOL
StrikerFired
12-10-12, 21:37
Usually the higher ups who select a duty weapon for an agency will never have to carry the weapon. They are either the agency know-it-all, or are grossly incompetent.
AMEN!!!!
mikelowrey
12-10-12, 21:39
AMEN!!!!
LOL. I always thought and still think that in the police force we need to look out for our brothers and sisters but in the situation they looking out for the pockets... Dont get me wrong, I dont mind paying taxes as long as its being used the right way...
its a great thing that we are not authorized to carry the Kahr K9 off duty anymore. Everybody traded their Kahr to the gun shops and got a brand new Glock 26 for $100 for it. Life is beautiful... except for having the 12 pound trigger pull :D
mikelowrey
12-11-12, 17:09
its a great thing that we are not authorized to carry the Kahr K9 off duty anymore. Everybody traded their Kahr to the gun shops and got a brand new Glock 26 for $100 for it. Life is beautiful... except for having the 12 pound trigger pull :D
:lol:
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
12-11-12, 17:38
its a great thing that we are not authorized to carry the Kahr K9 off duty anymore. Everybody traded their Kahr to the gun shops and got a brand new Glock 26 for $100 for it. Life is beautiful... except for having the 12 pound trigger pull :D
Indeed. This is old news to guys still on or were still on with the city within the last 7 years or so. I carried the kahr off duty for about a year or so and sold it to a Brooklyn south cop just before the issues started cropping up and kahr reps were hauled into trailers at Rodman's to overhaul every k9, department wide during quals. Got into a gen 3 glock 26 and never looked back. I believe last I heard there were some accuracy related issues with the Gold dot and the full size 9mm M+P so they're still working with Smith to work that out. No more 5946s will be made so either Smith makes the M+P work or the range guys will be looking elsewhere for a third duty gun option. I believe the gen 4 glocks only recently got approved and it was transmitted citywide through FINEST. As a side note, a decent sized county agency where I work had Smith 9mms much like the 5946, albeit with a much lighter trigger pull. Their commissioner is a city transplant who carried the city mindset over, and all that entails, refusing to allow a change to a .40 caliber duty gun used by the majority of departments in the county. Their union polled all the departments in the county for their duty guns and forced the admins to transition to the MP 40 and they haven't looked back since.
Fat chance things would ever move quickly enough in the city.
mikelowrey
12-11-12, 19:51
I believe the gen 4 glocks only recently got approved and it was transmitted citywide through FINEST.
Yes sir, but only the off duty version. Now, I saw that about 3 months ago, probable from that time to now they must have or should be approving the on duty.
Alaskapopo
12-12-12, 00:08
Not really, that guy has been out of jail for over a year. How long do you think an ordinary citizen would have served for having a ND into a guys throat? Probably more than 16 months.
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Same circumstances probably the same time served or less. Also an ordinary citizen is not placed in these type of situations at near the same level of frequency. Ordinary citizens are given the benefit of the doubt more because they are not expected to have the same level of training.
Pat
I would much rather see a handgun with a good trigger thatīs conductive to accurate shooting in the hands of Police officers. I never understood the whole deal with the heavy triggers for the NYPD and similar departments.
Usually the higher ups who select a duty weapon for an agency will never have to carry the weapon. They are either the agency know-it-all, or are grossly incompetent.
Thatīs most likely the reason for those kinds of decisions. Itīs the same here in Luxembourg. I guess our "higher ups" know better than pretty much the rest of the world, thatīs why we are still stuck with S&W 686/620 revolvers:rolleyes:
Ned Christiansen
12-12-12, 08:58
Given the culture in the higher echelon, I'm curious about something. If a street cop were to seek out his own training, let's say on a regular basis, and it came to the attention of the higher-ups, would they look at that with suspicion and concern? Would their reaction be, "Hey, WE decide to what level you will be trained. WE think it's better for everyone that you don't get too good at this. The last thing we need here is people that know how to shoot. If you learn how to shoot, there might be a shooting! By learning how to shoot better than WE want, you are on the edge of violating policy."
Bulldog7972
12-12-12, 11:19
I just thank God I don't have to work there. The last time I was in NY to visit the 9-11 memorial, I saw at least three different handguns being carried by diferent NYPD divisions. I saw Glocks, Sigs and I believe some older Smiths. I'm not sure who was carrying what but I thought that was kind of stupid. I'm just glad that for a small agency, mine is fairly progressive when it comes to firearms thanks for a lead firearms instructor/Captain who is pretty sharp. I fail to see how giving a weapon a heavier trigger pull is conducive to better shooting, but as has been pointed out, the admin weenies who make these decisions haven't pulled their firearm in years.
I don't understand the point of your post. So what if they have different weapons. Why do you think its stupid?
mikelowrey
12-12-12, 15:27
Given the culture in the higher echelon, I'm curious about something. If a street cop were to seek out his own training, let's say on a regular basis, and it came to the attention of the higher-ups, would they look at that with suspicion and concern? Would their reaction be, "Hey, WE decide to what level you will be trained. WE think it's better for everyone that you don't get too good at this. The last thing we need here is people that know how to shoot. If you learn how to shoot, there might be a shooting! By learning how to shoot better than WE want, you are on the edge of violating policy."
You can get training on your own. However, wen you go to the range and you start doing some funny stuff not being done in the range they will call your attention and tell you that they didn't teach you that, if you say you learn it somewhere they gonna answer to leave at home and do it their way.
S. Galbraith
12-12-12, 16:36
Given the culture in the higher echelon, I'm curious about something. If a street cop were to seek out his own training, let's say on a regular basis, and it came to the attention of the higher-ups, would they look at that with suspicion and concern? Would their reaction be, "Hey, WE decide to what level you will be trained. WE think it's better for everyone that you don't get too good at this. The last thing we need here is people that know how to shoot. If you learn how to shoot, there might be a shooting! By learning how to shoot better than WE want, you are on the edge of violating policy."
On the Federal side, we are free to train outside of the agency, but sometimes what we teach others comes under scrutiny. Federal is all about standardization across the board. In some ways we are more strict than state/local agencies, and in some ways we are more liberal.
Just to throw some info out there;
Rich Grassi is the editor of the Tactical Wire. He is retired LE, a noted firearms instructor and gun writer, and a very solid dude. He has served as an expert witness several times in defense of police officers being sued.
He IS NOT anti LE in any way.
He is VERY anti LE leadership that make stupid choices, many of which can effect the ability of the troops to do their jobs.
Ned,
I have taught at several schools in the past where NYPD guys were attending on their own. A few times they were there shooting ammo provided by the job so I assume someone blessed them being there.
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