View Full Version : Dedicated Suppressed AR vs. Standard AR Suppressed Results
Eurodriver
12-13-11, 14:32
I picked up two suppressors today, my M4-2000 and my Pilot 2. I was not expecting a Pilot 2 at all, M3 told me he was selling me an original pilot. Not sure what that shows on his part but I am beyond elated to get the upgraded model that allows disassembly.
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/143/103nb.jpg
I was really looking forward to shooting my dedicated suppressed SBR. I have written about it on here countless times, its a build that has taken since August to complete.
It has a Noveske upper receiver with a DD barrel cut to 10.3". The gas port is 0.058" (I measured it) When I first fired this, it would not cycle unsuppressed regardless of ammo or buffer weight. It just barely ejected the spent case but would not pick up a new one. The rail is a Centurion 9" and currently has an H Buffer with USGI spring.
I checked all three rifles first for concentricity, I just eyeballed it. I trust BCM/ADCO enough that I wasn't very concered with any baffle strikes, but I wanted to at least make sure there wasn't something that was glaringly wrong. I started off with the dedicated suppressed upper.
I had M193, PMC Bronze .223, and PMC XTAC M855 with me. All cycled flawlessly suppressed. M193 would cycle unsuppressed, but barely. Not sure if the rifle is "breaking in" or something, but that was a surprise.
Recoil was non existent. It was very very smooth, there was no gas blowback, and the upper was pretty clean considering the suppressed firing.
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/7303/125vye.jpg
When I picked up the 12.5", I thought that it was perfect. Its barrel was just long enough to justify the ACOG's magnification but even with the suppressor on it it was not unwieldy or front heavy. I was surprised. It felt very very balanced. This is probably my new favorite rifle.
However, it is definitely not comfortable to fire suppressed. With the short eye relief, the increased felt recoil and the "gas face" it was not as fun as the 10.3" (It should be noted that I was not using eye-pro specifically to see if gas would get in my eyes [stupid, I know]. WIth a good set of eye pro there would probably be no issues)
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1382/145ij.jpg
No surprise here, this was the most awkward to fire with the suppressor with 14.5" of barrel. It was still not uncomfortable but hanging 16oz off the muzzle of an already longer weapon made it a bit front heavy.
This too suffered from the same problems the 12.5" AR did. I would not like to fire these weapons suppressed for very long.
I will need to put a Vltor A5 buffer assembly on the 14.5" lower and the 12.5" lower if I plan on shooting suppressed at all. Every shot feels like the buffer is bottoming out on the buffer tube and causing it to beat itself to death. I'm sure it didn't help that I was only using an H buffer.
I'm extremely satisfied with building an upper from the ground up to be shot suppressed. It is a completely different rifle than the other two with the suppressor attached. I'd bet that it feels smoother than most unsuppressed ARs.
I am really going to run it through its paces on Thursday; I'll be firing about 500 rounds through it and I can't wait to see if it can maintain this standard of reliability. Of course, that is more important than felt recoil or gas blowback.
Congrats!
You've got a nice stable of runners built up there.
Does the 10.5" have any other "special" BCG parts like Grant's, or is the only unique feature for suppressed operation the extra small .058" gas port?
Did the DD barrel start out as a 16" CAR gas?
Eurodriver
12-13-11, 14:59
Congrats!
You've got a nice stable of runners built up there.
Does the 10.5" have any other "special" BCG parts like Grant's, or is the only unique feature for suppressed operation the extra small .058" gas port?
Did the DD barrel start out as a 16" CAR gas?
No. I wanted to have Grant tweak it a bit (play around with springs, bolt carriers, buffers, etc) but didn't want to send it in until I had my suppressor because I wanted to shoot it in its original configuration suppressed before I did anything else to it. (That way if for whatever reason it did not work suppressed, I could start eliminating things). Now with Christmas around the corner I will wait until after the new year to do anything, but I do have plans on tinkering with it for optimal function.
Yes.
I thought that the correct port size for a 14.5" or 16" barrel on a carbine gas system was .061" and .063" respectively, how is it that the cut down DD barrel has a .058" gas port? Or am I not understanding something?
Eurodriver
12-13-11, 16:11
I thought that the correct port size for a 14.5" or 16" barrel on a carbine gas system was .061" and .063" respectively, how is it that the cut down DD barrel has a .058" gas port? Or am I not understanding something?
Thats the size of the port that is on my rifle. Surf, another member here, has also measured DD carbine gas barrels with similar port sizes.
But you are correct. 0.062" seems to be the standard port size on Colts.
Euro,
I also have a 12.5" and if you run it with an H3 or A5 you will like it. Did you not open the port up on the 10.3"? I think it's a mistake not to in my opinion.
Eurodriver
12-13-11, 18:05
Euro,
I also have a 12.5" and if you run it with an H3 or A5 you will like it. Did you not open the port up on the 10.3"? I think it's a mistake not to in my opinion.
I will eventually. I understand your reasoning and it makes sense. I just wanted to run it suppressed before meddling with anything.
Should I buy an H3 or get an A5? I know your answer here will be to get an A5 but an H3 is significantly less expensive and takes 30 seconds to install. Still get the A5? I know I need something, that recoil impulse is so intense it feels like when the damn BCG bottoms out on the buffer tube that it stays stuck back there for 1/4 of a second before returning to battery!
The A5 may not be for everyone. So just consider getting an H3 and a blue Springco spring. That will make a difference (at least in my experience).
I will eventually. I understand your reasoning and it makes sense. I just wanted to run it suppressed before meddling with anything.
Should I buy an H3 or get an A5? I know your answer here will be to get an A5 but an H3 is significantly less expensive and takes 30 seconds to install. Still get the A5? I know I need something, that recoil impulse is so intense it feels like when the damn BCG bottoms out on the buffer tube that it stays stuck back there for 1/4 of a second before returning to battery!
I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier (not bolt) would do anything to bleed off the gas?
Also, IG, what do you mean when you say that the A5 isn't for everyone?
Some people don't want to spend the money. In that case you use alternate methods. Personally I think the idea is good and so far most of those who I know that use it, like it.
One has to understand and appreciate the versatility.
I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier (not bolt) would do anything to bleed off the gas?
Also, IG, what do you mean when you say that the A5 isn't for everyone?
Magic_Salad0892
12-14-11, 06:13
Did you not open the port up on the 10.3"? I think it's a mistake not to in my opinion.
I think for a dedicated suppressed gun, opening up the port would ruin it's purpose.
IMHO, for a dedicated suppressor host .056''/8'' is perfect, for a SEMI-dedicated host .062'' would be better.
I need to break my other rifles in a little more so the ports erode a bit. Or I might just have 'em opened up a little.
Also, IG, what do you mean when you say that the A5 isn't for everyone?
I'll echo Gunz. The A5 requires a little more money to buy the RE and Buffer/spring. But a simple heavier buffer can help most guys in the short run.
On a defense gun you want to run well over the long haul... a rifle buffer or A5 is the way to go.
Eurodriver
12-14-11, 11:44
Well I will not be shooting the other two ARs suppressed very often, so I think I will go the H3 route. For the price of 2 A5 assemblies I can get another flashlight.
I am not ruling anything out yet though.
I thought that the correct port size for a 14.5" or 16" barrel on a carbine gas system was .061" and .063" respectively, how is it that the cut down DD barrel has a .058" gas port? Or am I not understanding something?
Put it this way:
Given a 14.5" barrel with a certain port size, the same port with a 16" barrel will deliver more gas.
To keep the total gas delivery the same, the 16" should have a smaller port.
If a .0625" port is optimum for a 14.5" barrel, something smaller like .060" will be optimum for a 16".
MikeCLeonard
12-14-11, 21:39
Great post Euro!
I've been interested in doing a similar project for quite some time now. I really like the idea...but I'm still a little concerned I would run into issues unless I was running full-powered Ammo and the suppressor all the time. My plan was to only cut to 11.5", use the A5, and the enhanced carrier though. It was my line of thinking that this would allow me more leeway for running unsuppressed, and .223 powered loads.
I'd be very curious to see how an A5 buffer system and LMT enhanced carrier would factor into your dedicated upper's performance.
I wonder if the LMT Enhanced Carrier (not bolt) would do anything to bleed off the gas?
Also, IG, what do you mean when you say that the A5 isn't for everyone?
Yes, it will bleed off some I think.
C4
Yes, it will bleed off some I think.
C4
I'm thinking of a similar build as his (12.5" suppressed with standard GP size) and was wondering if the LMT Enhanced carrier + Vltor A5 would make it a much smoother shooting gun without sacrificing reliability?
I'm thinking of a similar build as his (12.5" suppressed with standard GP size) and was wondering if the LMT Enhanced carrier + Vltor A5 would make it a much smoother shooting gun without sacrificing reliability?
It certainly wouldn't hurt, but would NOT be the same as using a Noveske SB or a dedicated (suppressed) barrel.
C4
It certainly wouldn't hurt, but would NOT be the same as using a Noveske SB or a dedicated (suppressed) barrel.
C4
Gotcha. Didn't think it would, but I wouldn't want to go dedicated on the 12.5" anyway. I've decided on the Ops Suppressors, and I hear they don't cause as much backpressure as end mount suppressors...don't know if that's true or not?
As an alternative to a dedicated upper, what about a dedicated suppressed BCG to go along with the suppressor?
The special BCG would offset the increase in gas drive caused by the suppressor.
The combination of the special BGC and suppressor would be able to drop into most standard uppers and retain the same cyclic rate.
As an alternative to a dedicated upper, what about a dedicated suppressed BCG to go along with the suppressor?
The special BCG would offset the increase in gas drive caused by the suppressor.
The combination of the two would be able to drop into most standard uppers and retain the same cyclic rate.
I'm assuming by "special BCG" you mean the LMT Enhanced...
And I assume by "combination of the two" you mean LMT Enhanced + A5? (In reference to my post?)
Is this speculation or theory on your part, or have you tried this?
I'm assuming by "special BCG" you mean the LMT Enhanced...
And I assume by "combination of the two" you mean LMT Enhanced + A5? (In reference to my post?)
Its along the same lines as your post.
Special is not exactly the LMT. I mean a BCG specifically calibrated to offset the suppressor.
The "combination" is suppressor + special BCG. They get installed together. When you take the suppressor off, you also remove the SBCG and replace it with the old BCG.
The existing buffers, etc could be left as-is in the various uppers.
Its along the same lines as your post.
Special is not exactly the LMT. I mean a BCG specifically calibrated to offset the suppressor.
Can't say I've ever heard of such a thing??
Eurodriver
12-15-11, 06:37
I'm off to the range. I'll get pics and video. I've only got 300 rounds, but Im taking it out again Christmas Eve to run another 500 rounds.
Great post Euro!
I've been interested in doing a similar project for quite some time now. I really like the idea...but I'm still a little concerned I would run into issues unless I was running full-powered Ammo and the suppressor all the time. My plan was to only cut to 11.5", use the A5, and the enhanced carrier though. It was my line of thinking that this would allow me more leeway for running unsuppressed, and .223 powered loads.
I'd be very curious to see how an A5 buffer system and LMT enhanced carrier would factor into your dedicated upper's performance.
That is the point of a dedicated suppressed upper though. You will not be shooting it unsuppressed. If I had any intentions of shooting this unsuppressed at all I wouldnt have gone through the trouble. I'm not calling you out, this isn't directed toward you at all. But I have seen a few people on here try to make "dedicated suppressed" uppers and then complain when it won't cycle unsuppressed. My rifle intermittently cycles full power M193 unsuppressed. Firing .223 turns it into a straight pull bolt action. But I don't care because it cycles everything from weak Korean .223 to M193 suppressed smoothly and reliably.
If people want a more mild setup for part time unsuppressed use, then yeah, maybe cutting the barrel to 11.5" or even 12.5" with the 0.058/0.062 gas port size would help with that but its a toss up as I'm not aware of anyone who's ever done it.
I have no plans on putting an A5 on this rifle, only on the rifles with the original gas port/barrel lengths. This does not need an A5. I may run an LMT enhanced carrier and play around with springs to try and get solid reliability unsuppressed but that won't be for a while if I even try it at all.
As an alternative to a dedicated upper, what about a dedicated suppressed BCG to go along with the suppressor?
The special BCG would offset the increase in gas drive caused by the suppressor.
The combination of the special BGC and suppressor would be able to drop into most standard uppers and retain the same cyclic rate.
Are you talking about manufacturing your own bolt carrier? Because even an LMT enhanced carrier with an A5 assembly will not make an overgassed carbine with a suppressor shoot as smoothly as shrinking the gas port size will.
I'm not sure anyone makes anything like that.
Let us know how the H3 works at smooting out the recoil on the 12.5" when you suppress it. I'm really surprised at how bad you described the recoil...
Great info. Keep us informed on your results.
This thread is very helpful. I just got my lower & it's ready to get SBR'd. The forms will go out in a week or so & I've been looking harder into what all I need to get so the 10.5 will work well suppressed.
This thread is very helpful. I just got my lower & it's ready to get SBR'd. The forms will go out in a week or so & I've been looking harder into what all I need to get so the 10.5 will work well suppressed.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I want to do a suppressed 10.5" AR, but I want the option of removing the suppressor and having the rifle still function properly. The Noveske switchblock seems promising for this, but it's pricey. A local shop had the complete DD MK18 a few days ago for $1229. The complete Noveske switchblock 10.5" AR was about $1000 more. It's kind of hard to ignore that. I was thinking that maybe if I got the DD and added an A5 kit and an LMT enhanced carrier that it might give me what I'm looking for. I know it wouldn't be the same as a barrel with a suppressed-only custom gas port, but I don't think that would give me what I'm looking for anyway.
On the other hand, it's hard to ignore the fact that adding an A5, 51T Blackout (or Breakout), LMT enhanced bolt carrier, and sights that I'm well over halfway through the cost difference between the two rifles. I'm guessing the Noveske wouldn't benefit much (or as much) from the LMT enhanced carrier if it has the switchblock, but I don't know that for sure. Same with the A5. I'd be curious to hear some opinions from those more experienced about these options/parts combinations.
Eurodriver
12-15-11, 16:19
Let us know how the H3 works at smooting out the recoil on the 12.5" when you suppress it. I'm really surprised at how bad you described the recoil...
I will not be shooting the 12.5" suppressed very often, so I will be keeping the H Buffer in it. However, I will pick up an H3 soon just for tinkering and report back.
I cannot overstate the extreme difference in felt recoil and gas blowback between the 12.5" suppressed and the small gas port 10.3" suppressed. (See below)
This thread is very helpful. I just got my lower & it's ready to get SBR'd. The forms will go out in a week or so & I've been looking harder into what all I need to get so the 10.5 will work well suppressed.
I feel like this cannot be said enough: My rifle will not work unsuppressed. If you want to run a suppressed and unsuppressed SBR I highly recommend the Noveske Switchblock.
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9691/imgp0446i.jpg
We took some vids today.
This is my buddy shooting, I am filming. Kind of had a weird thing going on (my arm was over his shoulder) but its a nice camera angle.
http://youtu.be/Ndy-441xCRU
I hope this doesnt devolve into a "You suck at pulling the trigger." debate. This goes back to what I was saying above regarding the gas blowback.I was not looking forward to getting gas in my eye. I sort of just slapped the trigger without really aiming as the purpose of the video was to compare the sound, not get rounds on target. The eye relief on the ACOG is pretty short and requires me to get in close. Its very uncomfortable with the extra gas from the can, every shot makes my eyes water. With that said, check out the difference in sound with the can mounted. The video almost sounds like its editted. The M4-2000 rocks.
http://youtu.be/XI2cOtoW7hY
The suppressor is AWESOME. I don't know what you guys are talking about, even on the 10.3" this rifle is hearing safe. It only gets quieter as the barrel length increases. I think this may have to do with being on an outdoor range without trees. When I shot this the other day it was definitely louder but I was in a heavily wooded forest and the supersonic crack might have contributed to that. With hearing protection standing off to the side it sounds like a very quiet "thoosh". I love the tone, I love the mounting system (It did not stick to the mount at all) and I love the suppressor.
But I only love it on the 10.3" with the small gas port. It is really that bad with the OEM 12.5" gas port however that may just be because I have the small gas port to compare it to. I'm sure if I shot my 12.5" suppressed by itself without having ever shot the 10.3" it would not be that bad. But just to make my point even clearer, when firing the 12.5" suppressed I could feel the gas rushing through my hair. It was like someone was blowing compressed air at my hair line with every trigger pull. I would not like to shoot this left handed.
A few final notes:
Contrary to the videos, I did shoot these out to 200 yards. The 12.5" did exceptionally well and grouped around 1.5 MOA with 10 rounds of M193 at 200. The 10.3" has a T1 but I still got a 5" 10 shot group at 200 yards. I am satisfied.
I wouldnt mind shooting the 12.5" suppressed, but its not something I would do often. It is way worse than the small gas port upper, but it is not at all unshootable. As I said, it may just be that I am spoiled having a dedicated suppressed upper to compare it to. The short eye relief of the ACOG is a definite issue with the gas blowback and I could see myself developing a flinch or closing my eyes while I pull the trigger due to that.
And if anyone is curious, my buddy couldn't hit an 8" circle at 200 yards with his .338LM. He was pissed my little SBRs were outshooting him.
I feel like this cannot be said enough: My rifle will not work unsuppressed. If you want to run a suppressed and unsuppressed SBR I highly recommend the Noveske Switchblock.
I'm with ya. I wasn't necessarily talking just about yours though. I've taken notes on it not functioning unsuppressed. I appreciate your info, and all of the other good info as well.
Would this setup work with an AAC M4 mini or would that not supply enough backpressure gas?
I might have missed it, but is the GP size on the 10.3?
C4
Eurodriver
12-17-11, 14:16
0.058" +/- 0.001
0.058" +/- 0.001
Ok. That might be a bit small (assuming you want the gun to run, but not lock back without the can on).
Are you using an LMT Enhanced Carrier?
C4
Eurodriver
12-17-11, 15:41
Ok. That might be a bit small (assuming you want the gun to run, but not lock back without the can on).
Are you using an LMT Enhanced Carrier?
C4
Negative, everything is completely USGI.
I must be just barely off the money because when firing unsuppressed it will eject the spent case but not go far enough to pick up a new one.
Are you talking about manufacturing your own bolt carrier? Because even an LMT enhanced carrier with an A5 assembly will not make an overgassed carbine with a suppressor shoot as smoothly as shrinking the gas port size will.
Yes, the LMT EC is not designed to compensate for a suppressor.
Negative, everything is completely USGI.
I must be just barely off the money because when firing unsuppressed it will eject the spent case but not go far enough to pick up a new one.
I have to wonder if the LMT EC would allow it to cycle without the can on.
C4
Eurodriver
12-17-11, 17:10
I have to wonder if the LMT EC would allow it to cycle without the can on.
C4
Me too. I have enough spare cash to justify buying an EC if it works, but I'm concerned I'd drop the $200 for no improvement and then I'm stuck with it. (Thats a tax stamp!)
Magic_Salad0892
12-17-11, 20:10
I have to wonder if the LMT EC would allow it to cycle without the can on.
C4
If it works on my .056'' it should work on a .058''.
My KAC carriers will not cycle unsuppressed at all.
My LMT will. 5.56mm. M855, M193, Mk. 262.
Does anyone suspect I will have problems swapping between a suppressed 11.5" BCM upper and an unsuppressed 10.5" Noveske. I would be using the same lower with an H2 buffer?
Eurodriver
12-20-11, 16:27
Does anyone suspect I will have problems swapping between a suppressed 11.5" BCM upper and an unsuppressed 10.5" Noveske. I would be using the same lower with an H2 buffer?
No problems.
Eurodriver
06-21-22, 06:48
What do you guys think about this method? Still viable in 2022? Or are gas blocks, tubes, and BCGs a better way to go?
Chopping a barrel down still works, but is largely unnecessary these days.
Quality barrels are available with small gas ports, such as our 11.5 HFCL SUPP (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-11-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-Suppressor-p435168298).
Our EZTUNE gas tubes also allow tuning on an existing barrel.
Both of these can duplicate the performance characteristics of a cut down barrel for dedicated suppressed use.
What do you guys think about this method? Still viable in 2022? Or are gas blocks, tubes, and BCGs a better way to go?
Other than some BCG designs, your list is just a different way to get a smaller gas port. My dedicated 10.5” is still super soft shooting and reliable.
I don’t think there is a better or simpler way than just having a barrel with a smaller gas port, but cost and quality of your barrel shop is probably a big variable.
There are also lower back pressure silencer designs these days to consider.
Five_Point_Five_Six
06-22-22, 14:26
What do you guys think about this method? Still viable in 2022? Or are gas blocks, tubes, and BCGs a better way to go?
$300 BCGs, vented charging handles, and smearing silicone all over the back of the charging handle are just bandaids and not real solutions. The easy button is to buy whatever barrel you want without having to worry about what gas port size they use and throw in one of Clint's EZ Tune gas tubes.
A dedicated reduced gas port barrel is probably the best option, and will likely be the next route I take when I need to rebarrel one of my uppers. The BRT gas tubes are working marvelously for me in the mean time.
The BRT gas tubes are working marvelously for me in the mean time.
The tube is a solid solution.
$300 BCGs, vented charging handles, and smearing silicone all over the back of the charging handle are just bandaids and not real solutions. The easy button is to buy whatever barrel you want without having to worry about what gas port size they use and throw in one of Clint's EZ Tune gas tubes.
Allow me to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment. For a part-time suppressor host or for one that the possessor does not want to/can’t change a gas tube, the Bootleg carrier actually works very well. Much better than I expected. Much better than the LMT or Lantac BCGs in that role. Of course, I started out with a reasonably ported barrel that was advertised as a silencer barrel. But I wouldn’t call it a band-aid, because it works so well, although I don’t think that’s the one you were talking about.
I absolutely agree that the EZ Tune or simply a properly ported barrel is the best first-line solution to the full-time suppressor host, which is of course the topic at hand. I put the gas tubes on almost every rifle I have, and so do some of my friends.
The tube is a solid solution.
Yes. Made a huge difference for me and no drawbacks. They will be my default moving forward.
I have two 10.5 SBR's that are gassy that I am taking out Saturday and trying to decide if I want adjustable gas block, (which I have at home) or try one of Clints tubes which have been fabulous with my MWS guns.
BRT is a legit option.
PB
sandsunsurf
06-24-22, 00:03
I’m coming back around to the idea of piston guns. I got a great deal on a Superlative Arms adjustable bleed piston system and after installing it and shooting it I found it’s an amazing way to reduce gas to the face. So I bought a PWS MK111 Mod 1 and I really like that one, also, though it is a tad more gassy, it’s super easy to switch. At this point I’m only shooting my AR for fun, training, and the one in a million chance of shtf so I’m more free to screw around with different builds.
It would be interesting to compare the "gas to face" from an otherwise identical DI upper configured with a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block to the piston version.
A properly setup dedicated suppressed DI AR has virtually no gas and can be very pleasant to shoot.
I’m coming back around to the idea of piston guns. I got a great deal on a Superlative Arms adjustable bleed piston system and after installing it and shooting it I found it’s an amazing way to reduce gas to the face. So I bought a PWS MK111 Mod 1 and I really like that one, also, though it is a tad more gassy, it’s super easy to switch. At this point I’m only shooting my AR for fun, training, and the one in a million chance of shtf so I’m more free to screw around with different builds.
Setup one with the AGB and one with an EZTUNE gas tube.
Shoot 'em side by side and share your experience.
I have two 10.5 SBR's that are gassy that I am taking out Saturday and trying to decide if I want adjustable gas block, (which I have at home) or try one of Clints tubes which have been fabulous with my MWS guns.
BRT is a legit option.
PB
Yes, the adjustable carrier does work to reduce bolt velocity, however there are a couple side effects.
#1 the adjustment mechanism leaks and reduces the gas drive in the "normal" setting.
We tested this back to back with a BCM BCG.
The mil-spec BCG produced 2:30 ejection and the adjustable BCG produced 4:00 ejection and notably slower bolt velocity.
When sizing EZTUNE gas tubes, we go up one size to compensate and get the same level of Gas Drive.
This isn't a huge deal, but isn't exactly expected either.
For over gassed uppers, this leakage could actually be considered a benefit.
#2 the gas venting in the suppressed setting is directly adjacent to the shooter's ear and extremely loud.
Again, we tested it in the full suppressed setting without a suppressor attached.
The bolt didn't move or eject the brass, as expected.
What wasn't expected was the notable ear ringing / discomfort in one ear through the usual Surefire EP4 (https://www.surefire.com/products/earpro/ep4-sonic-defenders-plus/) hearing protection.
Again, this was without the suppressor attached, so it should represent the minimum level of ejection port noise produced.
The EP4 are admittedly not "heavy duty" hearing protection, but are completely sufficient for all other shooting.
#3 It requires a tool to adjust.
This may be a minor quibble, but Murphy's Law is in full effect whenever you're in the field.
In summary, the adjustable carrier is a viable solution.
However, in many cases it's simpler and easier to setup an upper for 50/50 suppressed use and (optionally) just swap in a heavy buffer when suppressed.
Allow me to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment. For a part-time suppressor host or for one that the possessor does not want to/can’t change a gas tube, the Bootleg carrier actually works very well. Much better than I expected. Much better than the LMT or Lantac BCGs in that role. Of course, I started out with a reasonably ported barrel that was advertised as a silencer barrel. But I wouldn’t call it a band-aid, because it works so well, although I don’t think that’s the one you were talking about.
I absolutely agree that the EZ Tune or simply a properly ported barrel is the best first-line solution to the full-time suppressor host, which is of course the topic at hand. I put the gas tubes on almost every rifle I have, and so do some of my friends.
Yes, the adjustable carrier does work to reduce bolt velocity, however there are a couple side effects.
#1 the adjustment mechanism leaks and reduces the gas drive in the "normal" setting.
We tested this back to back with a BCM BCG.
The mil-spec BCG produced 2:30 ejection and the adjustable BCG produced 4:00 ejection and notably slower bolt velocity.
When sizing EZTUNE gas tubes, we go up one size to compensate and get the same level of Gas Drive.
This isn't a huge deal, but isn't exactly expected either.
For over gassed uppers, this leakage could actually be considered a benefit.
#2 the gas venting in the suppressed setting is directly adjacent to the shooter's ear and extremely loud.
Again, we tested it in the full suppressed setting without a suppressor attached.
The bolt didn't move or eject the brass, as expected.
What wasn't expected was the notable ear ringing / discomfort in one ear through the usual Surefire EP4 (https://www.surefire.com/products/earpro/ep4-sonic-defenders-plus/) hearing protection.
Again, this was without the suppressor attached, so it should represent the minimum level of ejection port noise produced.
The EP4 are admittedly not "heavy duty" hearing protection, but are completely sufficient for all other shooting.
#3 It requires a tool to adjust.
This may be a minor quibble, but Murphy's Law is in full effect whenever you're in the field.
In summary, the adjustable carrier is a viable solution.
However, in many cases it's simpler and easier to setup an upper for 50/50 suppressed use and (optionally) just swap in a heavy buffer when suppressed.
Which ones have you tested? I only have the Bootleg.
1)it’ll run unsuppressed in the unsuppressed setting on a Hodge .0625” 12.5”, so I’m surprised to hear about the leakage.
2)no, it sounds exactly like its sister 12.3” with one of your 0.059” tubes on setting 3, and on setting 2 like its other sibling 12.5” with one of your mixed-use tubes. The design appears to cut off gas, not increase venting. Perhaps I’m wrong and it’ll do what you’re describing on a different barrel.
3)yes, it does require a tool, such as a screwdriver through the ejection port. The rim of a cartridge will work if you pull it out of the receiver. I’d consider it to be less reliant on tools than some other approaches.
Do these things come in different flavors? I’ll admit, I was skeptical at first.
Eurodriver
06-29-22, 08:43
I have the Gemtech on a 10.3” Centurion and a Gemtech on a 12.5” Noveske and a Gemtech on a 16” BCM and a Gemtech on a 11.5” BCM.
With the unsuppressed setting on and without a can there is absolutely a reduction is carrier velocity/felt recoil on all of them. This has never resulted in a failure however. I wonder how it would be with some weak .223 Tula in the cold though.
4 position Bootleg.
Tested only on setting 1 (U) and 4 (S).
Settings 2 and 3 may perform some kind of restriction and act differently than setting 4(S), which definitely vents gas.
Which ones have you tested? I only have the Bootleg.
1)it’ll run unsuppressed in the unsuppressed setting on a Hodge .0625” 12.5”, so I’m surprised to hear about the leakage.
2)no, it sounds exactly like its sister 12.3” with one of your 0.059” tubes on setting 3, and on setting 2 like its other sibling 12.5” with one of your mixed-use tubes. The design appears to cut off gas, not increase venting. Perhaps I’m wrong and it’ll do what you’re describing on a different barrel.
3)yes, it does require a tool, such as a screwdriver through the ejection port. The rim of a cartridge will work if you pull it out of the receiver. I’d consider it to be less reliant on tools than some other approaches.
Do these things come in different flavors? I’ll admit, I was skeptical at first.
My opinion is a quality adjustable gas block is the best option but it cost a lot more and takes a bit more work setting up. Both putting on the barrel and working up the perfect setting at the range. Clint's tubes are very simple and effective.
PB
It would be interesting to compare the "gas to face" from an otherwise identical DI upper configured with a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block to the piston version.
A properly setup dedicated suppressed DI AR has virtually no gas and can be very pleasant to shoot.
Cyclic rate and how fast extraction happens plays a big role. A huge amount of the gas to face comes through the bore.
Some piston designs actually increase the cyclic rate suppressed much more than DI.
I think the LMT enhanced carrier with it’s longer cam pin slot should delay extraction and might reduce gas to face. I haven’t bothered trying it out because your last point is so true. Reducing the gas on a standard DI system makes them pleasant to shoot suppressed.
And finding LMT Enhanced carriers is unicorn territory. I was fortunate to have had a LGS that kept them in stock for quite a while. I snatched a bunch overtime. But the two 10.5’s we shot this weekend had A5 buffers with LMT EBCG and gas was no issue but they felt snappy as fck. It was a windy day so gas was blown away, but I remember it being an issue.
And there is more to the EBCG than just gas control.
PB
No, the LMT solution is not a full solution.
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