View Full Version : What happened here?
So first off let me say I have never been in a firefight, Did this guy forget about his Forward Assist?
Is it lack of training? Or just shittin your pants?
The RPG that flies overhead at around 3:00 is pretty crazy!
Maybe some veterans can better explain.
http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/afghanistan-conflict/scouts-ambush-taliban/1323763405001/
Im not saying I would do any better, but its like he forgot how to get his weapon back up.
This is why we train on malfunctions
His gun was jacked up anyway, remembering to use his fwd assist at the end wouldn't have kept it running much longer.
The gun shouldn't have been carried in the condition that it was in (either with worn out parts, insufficient lubrication, or known quality mags to feed it with).
He rode the hell out of his charging handle every time, too. Probably the reason for some of his frustration was his attempted racking not fixing the problem, when letting it slam shut may have.
He rode the hell out of his charging handle every time, too. .
I seen that.
Every time he charged it
ICANHITHIMMAN
12-15-11, 12:47
I dont see anything out of the ordaniry. His weapon went down and he got it back in the fight. Until it looks like it the bolt was stuck to the rear. I would say the only thing he did wrong at all, is not call out he had a malfunction so his team new he was out of the fight. But then again not alot of guys are trained for that either.
where to start?.....
No helmet
His magazines are apparently in poor condition
Rifle not properly lubed or broken....
appears to be placing his mags out in front of him on the ground...
Very unprofessional. Would not be a big fan of being in a unit that allows its folks to act and operate like this.
where to start?.....
No helmet
His magazines are apparently in poor condition
Rifle not properly lubed or broken....
appears to be placing his mags out in front of him on the ground...
Very unprofessional. Would not be a big fan of being in a unit that allows its folks to act and operate like this.
Agree. All sorts of fail to bring up in the AAR.
I agree with whats already been said and want to add that in a regular line infantry unit unless you have a TMLDR or SQDLDR thats big into it or maybe a few gun guys, not nearly enough time is spent on working malfunctions or reloads. For the most part we focus on other things, driven to us from higher, and I think alot of the time we forget that as an infantryman your main weapon system is that rifle, and you should learn as much about it as you can. My guys learn how to clear malfunctons for sure. Problem is, there just isn't that many really knowledgable gun guys...sure you can shoot expert every time, but that doesn't really make you an expert...can you clear a bolt override without tools, in the dark?
Looks like there is more than meets the eye... Really hard to tell what was going on. Seemed like his bolt/extractor shit the bed but I don't think it had anything to do with the FA, it did look like he kept riding the CH a bit so maybe .... Just glad it didn't cost him or his teammates their lives as that shit got real in a hurry.
First of all, we don't know the circumstances of the fight, so to say that it was wrong to have mags in front of him is assuming, same for no helmet etc...alot of units operate light like that. For all we know its semi permanent post and they have mags stacked in and around ammo cans so guys don't have to use their load ammo in case they have to move. We did the same in our vehicles. We used the ammo from bandoliers hanging from the seats if fighting from the vehicle. My point being is that we just don't know.
I agree he rode the CH on every malfunction so there' a obvious training thing going on though. Not sure where the FA came into play either.
As for going to a back up??? What's he going to do pull his pistol out and engage, maybe. But what if the enemy is at 150 200 meters out? Again, don't know that from what we were shown.
The guy did what he had to do to stay in the fight, he kept pulling the trigger until his system shit, then he did what he could to fix it and continued until it shit again.
Obviously there's a issue with that system but I think it's a bit assumptuous to think that it was not maintained properly by the shooter or that the mags are bad. How many did he feed? a few. Again we just don't know what the issue is.
I had to go into Indian country without having the chance to properly test my newly issued system and in one case it could have cost me dearly as I got a bad M4. It was a BRAND NEW M4 and after every few rounds it shit on me, whether shooting semi or full auto. It was also properly lubed and inspected by me before going out the gate and GTG as far as I could tell. It wasn't until a few days later at the range that I learned it was bad after non stop failure to extract and double feeds. What ended up resolving the issue was taking a BCG (no bolt) from a full size M16 and swapping them out. Other than that nobody could tell what was causing the issue.
All we can really comment on IMO are the manipulations we are witnessing, other than than we know nothing of the situation or circumstance to be second guessing a guy that did his best with what he had in what was obviously a bad situation.
I certainly hope he had a conversation with his unit armorer after that fight and rifle performance.
R.
I agree with whats already been said and want to add that in a regular line infantry unit unless you have a TMLDR or SQDLDR thats big into it or maybe a few gun guys, not nearly enough time is spent on working malfunctions or reloads. For the most part we focus on other things, driven to us from higher, and I think alot of the time we forget that as an infantryman your main weapon system is that rifle, and you should learn as much about it as you can. My guys learn how to clear malfunctons for sure. Problem is, there just isn't that many really knowledgable gun guys...sure you can shoot expert every time, but that doesn't really make you an expert...can you clear a bolt override without tools, in the dark?
I agree with this. Poor habits that people train with thinking theyd do it properly when actually needed translate directly to your performance under pressure. I dont think anyone Ive had much interaction with in the military believes its a good idea to keep the bolt wet unless your at the range. Sad right?
It reminds me of a vid I was shown ina combat hunter course of a cop in Georgia I believe during a traffic stop. The man he stops pulls out a gun loads it in front of the officer and proceeds to fire on him. The cop all along yelling drop the gun sir... (along those lines)
The cop misses all his shots emptying the magazine. He was shouting "SHOOT SHOOT!!"pulling the trigger on an empty gun, while The other man(Vietnam Vet) not only was making body hits but also ran dry and reloaded. That police officer was executed on the side of the road.
What was explained to me after being shown the footage was that the training that officer received never covered reloads or how to react underfire.
Can I say Id do it differently? No because one can never know how they'd react in that situation. But when reloads become second nature and taking time to aim is made priority during rapid fire in training you can only hope that would carry over if the skills were needed to save your life.
What could be a worse time to single out your training flaws?
**I dont want to look up the vid because id prefer not to see it again, it bothers me to this day. And they caught the shooter for the record.
First of all, we don't know the circumstances of the fight, so to say that it was wrong to have mags in front of him is assuming, same for no helmet etc...alot of units operate light like that.
R.
Yes, but we do know that he had time to set up a video camera for vanity reasons. My main point is that what we see reaks of unprofessionalism and I am of the opinion that the forementioned unprofessional behavior probably leaked into his care and knowledge of the fighting condition of his gear. I have on occasion placed some extra mags out infront of myself while manning OP's or checkpoints, so while that by itself is not an indicator - when put in perspective of the other behavior shown it paints a pretty clear picture (to me).
I would be lying if I told you I did not do some dumb ass things when I was a young 22 year old Sgt leading troops into combat in Iraq in 03, but I sure cleaned up my act and grew up pretty damn fast. I would just as harshly critique myself if I were to see a video of me acting in this manner. But now I am old enough, experienced enough and wise enough to be ABLE to critique in that manner.
I'm not a military guy, but the concept of carrying a completely unproven rifle into the field is totally foreign to me.
IMO, you should be brought up on charges if you put troops into harms way with equipment which has not been tested and verified with live fire. The same should be true in LE or any arena where you are telling people to trust their life to something they haven't used yet.
Rick, you're telling me you carried a weapon that wasn't even zero'ed?
I don't get how this happens...
I'm betting that that rifle was neglected. Lube, mags, blown gas rings, chipped extractor...no idea. But something tells me that it wasn't maintained properly. Might not be the case, but I think the odds of that are much higher than it being a brand spanking new gun that was busted, or that is had a proven track record for hundreds of rounds and just decided to shit right there and then.
It reminds me of a vid I was shown ina combat hunter course of a cop in Georgia I believe during a traffic stop. The man he stops pulls out a gun loads it in front of the officer and proceeds to fire on him. The cop all along yelling drop the gun sir... (along those lines)
The cop misses all his shots emptying the magazine. He was shouting "SHOOT SHOOT!!"pulling the trigger on an empty gun, while The other man(Vietnam Vet) not only was making body hits but also ran dry and reloaded. That police officer was executed on the side of the road.
What was explained to me after being shown the footage was that the training that officer received never covered reloads or how to react underfire.
.....
**I dont want to look up the vid because id prefer not to see it again, it bothers me to this day. And they caught the shooter for the record.
Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. And I can't blame you for not wanting to see it again. And for the record, his first shot struck the bg in the gut. But that didn't stop the pos. I don't know if he was pulling a dead trigger or what happened with his reload, kinda hard to second guess the actions of a guy with a lot of holes in him. But I will say this, if there is anything to learn from that incident, it is: Do NOT hesitate!. The bg went to his truck, calmly loaded his rifle, and it wasn't until the guy took it out of the truck and pointed it at Deputy Dinkheller that the Deputy stopped yelling at him to drop the gun and opened fire.
The Deputy had more than enough justification to shoot as soon as the bg went back to his truck and started reaching, especially once his rifle was in clear view. But he hesitated, I don't know why, and I am not going to guess and assume. I hate to talk about learning experiences from such an incident but I sincerely hope that if something should ever happen to me once I am on the job, that other officers can learn from it.
I know that videos such these are important for le training and to pass around to other officers so they may learn but that video should NEVER have been made public.
On another note, what is a combat hunter?
I'm not a military guy, but the concept of carrying a completely unproven rifle into the field is totally foreign to me.
IMO, you should be brought up on charges if you put troops into harms way with equipment which has not been tested and verified with live fire. The same should be true in LE or any arena where you are telling people to trust their life to something they haven't used yet.
Rick, you're telling me you carried a weapon that wasn't even zero'ed?
I don't get how this happens...
I'm betting that that rifle was neglected. Lube, mags, blown gas rings, chipped extractor...no idea. But something tells me that it wasn't maintained properly. Might not be the case, but I think the odds of that are much higher than it being a brand spanking new gun that was busted, or that is had a proven track record for hundreds of rounds and just decided to shit right there and then.
Jim,
Actually yeah!!!! I know, I agree with you, but mission tempo didn't allow for me to go to the range and setup things as they should have. It was a big eye opener for me as well, as I'm sitting in a vehicle running around with an untested un-zeroed gun. It was less than a week before I was in the range setting things up but non the less, it was the reality of my world at the time. As you can imagine I wasn't happy about it.
Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. And I can't blame you for not wanting to see it again. And for the record, his first shot struck the bg in the gut. But that didn't stop the pos. I don't know if he was pulling a dead trigger or what happened with his reload, kinda hard to second guess the actions of a guy with a lot of holes in him. But I will say this, if there is anything to learn from that incident, it is: Do NOT hesitate!. The bg went to his truck, calmly loaded his rifle, and it wasn't until the guy took it out of the truck and pointed it at Deputy Dinkheller that the Deputy stopped yelling at him to drop the gun and opened fire.
The Deputy had more than enough justification to shoot as soon as the bg went back to his truck and started reaching, especially once his rifle was in clear view. But he hesitated, I don't know why, and I am not going to guess and assume. I hate to talk about learning experiences from such an incident but I sincerely hope that if something should ever happen to me once I am on the job, that other officers can learn from it.
I know that videos such these are important for le training and to pass around to other officers so they may learn but that video should NEVER have been made public.
On another note, what is a combat hunter?
Im glad he got a hit, do you know what they did to the guy? To be honest i dont know if the vid was made "public" ive never checked.
Combat hunter is a training program in the Marine Corps that incorporates a lot of combat mindset skills. Stuff like tracking, observation, human mannerism study, training concepts. Much more indepth, that's the short list.
When taught by the right instructor its probably the best training ive EVER received.
The instructor used that video in the portion of the course disusing the "train as you fight" concept. Basically saying that bad habits created in simulating training scenarios carries over in combat.
One of those things thats always bothered me was Search and asses after firing. Don't just turn your head actually look around.
One of those things thats always bothered me was Search and asses after firing. Don't just turn your head actually look around.
The big problem with this is most people that don't have the training don't know what to look at. They think looking at faces is good enough. Training will teach you to look at hands as the main part in the look and asses. The hand is what will kill you, nothing else. The face will give you intentions but hands will kill you.
At the range a good training technique is to hold something in your had and after the shooting string is done ask everyone that "looked and assesed":rolleyes: to tell you what you were holding in your hand. I guarantee 9 out of 10 shooters will miss it.
Im glad he got a hit, do you know what they did to the guy? To be honest i dont know if the vid was made "public" ive never checked.
Combat hunter is a training program in the Marine Corps that incorporates a lot of combat mindset skills. Stuff like tracking, observation, human mannerism study, training concepts. Much more indepth, that's the short list.
When taught by the right instructor its probably the best training ive EVER received.
The instructor used that video in the portion of the course disusing the "train as you fight" concept. Basically saying that bad habits created in simulating training scenarios carries over in combat.
One of those things thats always bothered me was Search and asses after firing. Don't just turn your head actually look around.
Sounds like a hell of a class. And I hear on the scan and assess, 90% of shooters aren't really looking or are looking but their mind is elsewhere so they aren't assessing.
The bg was sentenced to death, still on death row as far as I know.
The vid was leaked out and is on the web. I don't think there is anything wrong with the vid being shared between le/mil/psd/screened civilians but I just don't think it's respectful to his wife and kids to have his execution broadcast around the web. Half the sites on the web are filled with sick pos's who get a kick out of seeing that or are rooting along with the bg. I have no problem with folks like those on this forum who are respectful and would say a prayer for his family and take away a lesson.
I saw it a while back. My first question was why did he wait that long to engage. His front sight should have been on target as soon as he saw that gun and just dropped the guy the second he turned with itun. I mean how does someone charge you with a weapon like that, without you doing an NSR on the guy as he's getting closer.
IMO, maybe if he would have been more aggressive he might be alive today.
I sometimes get the impression that liability is a handicap to LEOs and gets them hurt/killed, and this is an example of it.
I would really be interested to know what the police officer was doing at the back of the car?
That video makes me angry no doubt about that. May he RIP!
I saw it a while back. My first question was why did he wait that long to engage. His front sight should have been on target as soon as he saw that gun and just dropped the guy the second he turned with itun. I mean how does someone charge you with a weapon like that, without you doing an NSR on the guy as he's getting closer.
IMO, maybe if he would have been more aggressive he might be alive today.
I sometimes get the impression that liability is a handicap to LEOs and gets them hurt/killed, and this is an example of it.
I would really be interested to know what the police officer was doing at the back of the car?
That video makes me angry no doubt about that. May he RIP!
I don't think we'll ever know why he hesitated, but fear of liability definitely puts one in a defensive mindset. As far as I'm concerned, he had enough reason to shoot as soon as the bg refused commands and went back to his truck to dig around. Why wait for him to turn around with a weapon in his hands, I am pretty sure that given the circumstances here, you could easily articulate that you felt your life was in danger. After that, the bg took the time to load his rifle at which point there is absolutely not to DRT the pos. I would say, with 99.99% certainty, that the Deputy would be alive today if he hadn't hesitated. But if there is any silver lining, his sacrifice, and others like him, have certainly saved lives. Their stories have deeply affected me and I believe I am and will be safer for it.
As for going to the back of the car, do you mean why he went there or what actions he performed while back there? If you mean why go back there, I wouldn't mind having the engine block between me and a bad guy. As for what he did while he was back there, I wonder too but he had already been hit multiple times in the arms and legs.
And I'm with you, the video pisses me off. I have a lot of thoughts on what could have been the reason for the long hesitation but I'm not going to speculate on an open forum, just seems wrong somehow. You know what the bg said when asked why he killed the Deputy? "Because he let me." **** him and **** instructors who have trainees so terrified of liability that they keep them from acting when they should.
Sorry for the hijack OP.
I don't think we'll ever know why he hesitated, but fear of liability definitely puts one in a defensive mindset. As far as I'm concerned, he had enough reason to shoot as soon as the bg refused commands and went back to his truck to dig around. Why wait for him to turn around with a weapon in his hands, I am pretty sure that given the circumstances here, you could easily articulate that you felt your life was in danger. After that, the bg took the time to load his rifle at which point there is absolutely not to DRT the pos. I would say, with 99.99% certainty, that the Deputy would be alive today if he hadn't hesitated. But if there is any silver lining, his sacrifice, and others like him, have certainly saved lives. Their stories have deeply affected me and I believe I am and will be safer for it.
As for going to the back of the car, do you mean why he went there or what actions he performed while back there? If you mean why go back there, I wouldn't mind having the engine block between me and a bad guy. As for what he did while he was back there, I wonder too but he had already been hit multiple times in the arms and legs.
And I'm with you, the video pisses me off. I have a lot of thoughts on what could have been the reason for the long hesitation but I'm not going to speculate on an open forum, just seems wrong somehow. You know what the bg said when asked why he killed the Deputy? "Because he let me." **** him and **** instructors who have trainees so terrified of liability that they keep them from acting when they should.
Sorry for the hijack OP.
I know why he went back there (more mass between him and BG) what I meant was what was he doing? Especially when the BG rushed him. Some rounds were exchanged so was he reloading during the BG rush? I didn't know he was hit before the POS rushed him. IMO, i think if he would have been as aggressive as the POS he might have won the engagement.
I'm not sure about shooting the guy after he went back to the car, but certainly taser the guy, especially after non compliance and his little dancing around.
Regardless its a true shame. I really do hope departments and supervisor take something away from that.
R.
.....
IMO, i think if he would have been as aggressive as the POS he might have won the engagement.
I'm not sure about shooting the guy after he went back to the car, but certainly taser the guy, especially after non compliance and his little dancing around.
R.
I agree 100% on the aggressiveness, bg's have a knack for picking up on a lack of it.
As for when to shoot, I don't want to veer out of my lane. As I've stated, I will be going into le shortly, I am not on the job yet. But I will say that I believe given the circumstances, deadly force would have been acceptable as soon as he started digging around the truck. He had been aggressively challenging the Deputy, moved aggressively toward the Deputy (causing the Deputy to back up and create distance), said something about fearing for his life right before moving to his vehicle against commands, and then reached into the vehicle. If the same guy had reached into his waistband, I think you would agree that that furtive movement would be cause for deadly force (especially given the circumstances). This, in my opinion is no different. He reached into a place where the Deputy had limited visibility and where guns are frequently hidden. Given the entirity of the situation, that's a GO for me. But regardless, as soon as the Deputy recognized he was loading up, it was time to shoot rather than command bg to drop the gun a dozen times.
Maybe some guys who are currently le can offer their more informed opinion.
Edit to remove "don"
If I remember correctly the officer in question had either 1) just been reprimanded regarding use of force, or 2) had just been subjected to a training session that revolved heavily around liability in a shooting...
Most of the gunfights I have been involved in I felt pretty comfortable. But the one fight where we were ambushed, outgunned and out numbered I really had to fight a moment of panic down. If this officer had not been in a deadly force encounter before, it is quite possible that he succumed to that moment of panic. Either way - it is a good illustration of how we need to train and prepare ourselves mentally so we dont become victims ourselves at the moment of truth.
I agree 100% on the aggressiveness, bg's have a knack for picking up on a lack of it.
As for when to shoot, I don't want to veer out of my lane. As I've stated, I will be going into le shortly, I am not on the job yet. But I will say that I believe given the circumstances, deadly force would have been acceptable as soon as he started digging around the truck. He had been aggressively challenging the Deputy, moved aggressively toward the Deputy (causing the Deputy to back up and create distance), said something about fearing for his life right before moving to his vehicle against commands, and then reached into the vehicle. If the same guy had reached into his waistband, I think you would agree that that furtive movement would be cause for deadly force (especially given the circumstances). This, in my opinion is no different. He reached into a place where the Deputy had limited visibility and where guns are frequently hidden. Given the entirity of the situation, that's a GO for me. But regardless, as soon as the Deputy recognized he was loading up, it was time to shoot rather than command bg to drop the gun a dozen times.
Maybe some guys who are currently le can offer their more informed opinion.
Edit to remove "don"
We used this as a training video at both academies that I have attended. The point was that with what he said to the officer "i got something for you" and his non compliance, along with the military decals he had on his truck would leave any reasonable person to believe that they had to defend themselves with deadly force and that this was a pretty clear case of use of deadly force.
If I remember correctly the officer in question had either 1) just been reprimanded regarding use of force, or 2) had just been subjected to a training session that revolved heavily around liability in a shooting...
I didn't know about that. I hate politics.
I saw that video years ago when I was going thought the academy. Several times I have been on a vehicle stop not going so well when I get a flashback of that video. As soon as that pos had the means, opportunity and intent it should have been game over for him. And as stated before, the stickers on the truck and failure to follow commands should have clued him in to the fact he wasn't reaching for a birthday cake.
You can't fix that with all the training in the world, experience matters. 100% agree with this statement.
Edit: But training will give you the proper tools that hopefully you will fall back on.
We used this as a training video at both academies that I have attended. The point was that with what he said to the officer "i got something for you" and his non compliance, along with the military decals he had on his truck would leave any reasonable person to believe that they had to defend themselves with deadly force and that this was a pretty clear case of use of deadly force.
Thanks brother, good to have informed feedback (you too yellow50).
Tiny Killer Robot
12-30-11, 03:06
I will not point out errors made in that stop. There are many videos of of the same. Having gone through the Academy young (23), I can tell you that the average officer/deputy does not train like their life depends on it. You get taught procedures for routine and felony stops, what to watch for, what to do, where to be... A year down the road when something goes bad fast, you don't remember a bit of it. Natural instinct (which is often wrong) kicks in and you go into mental vapor lock. Training, experience, and maturity counter this, but like I said, often training is neglected. The SO I worked for had maybe 10% of the personnel who actually shot more than was required and had an interest in firearms and tactics.
The Marine Corps was much the same way. Train to the standard and then chase tail.
I will pass along one thing and then I am out as I don't like these threads.
Whether it is a gun fight, knife fight, or fist fight with someone who truly wants to do you harm, you can never show fear or weakness. Imagine that the bad guy just slaughtered your whole family and you have to have a burning hatred/desire to end him. If you shown weakness, you give them a morale/momentum boost and it emboldens them. If you have to yell, scream something like, "COME ON MOTHER F@#$ER!" Deal with the fallout (if there are witnesses or video) later.
I have seen the Dinkheller video, and if memory serves, they POS kept prairie dogging (popping up from cover, firong a shot, and immediately dropping) and when the Deputy started yelling and freaking out, you can see the guy get bold and come out to shoot at him.
RogerinTPA
12-30-11, 08:59
Poor manipulation (as mentioned by others) and weapon not maintained properly due to poor training. It appears he made the problems worse, turning a double feed, into a bolt over base/bolt override, when he finally couldn't get the weapon back up = Leadership failure.
Agreed on this too but I will say that it has to be different being on your own with no buddies you can count on.
Sboza, you are absolutely correct. Grossman talks about how group dynamics, a solid leader and distance from the enemy enable men in combat to more easily overcome the natural hesitation at pulling the trigger. Being young, on your own and outgunned leaves you at a very distinct disadvantage - it takes a very large amount of training, maturity for your age level, and will to fight to over come that disadvantage.
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