Taking a rifle course

[TheJRK]

Hello everyone! I'm looking to take a rifle course in a few months and was trying to decide between two AR's to purchase to use for the course. I'm not new to AR's (8 years prior military) but I currently only own a SIG 556.

I saw this rifle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/bravocompanyusa/EAG%20Tac%20CARBINE/BCMEAGTACCAR800straigh.jpg

for $1871. It has everything I would put on a rifle (minus a RDS).

But I also like the DDM4V7:

http://clydearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/clyde_armory_daniel_defense_m4v7lw.jpg

I calculated that I could put everything I would want on it:
Magpul CTR stock
Magpul stubby vertical grip
Magpul MOE grip
VCAS sling
Light
Gunfighter charging handle

for $1772.

I'm thinking that the DDM4V7 is much lighter which would be beneficial during a rifle course. Is my logic flawed? Does anyone have experience with either of these 2 rifles?

Thanks.

[BaronFitz]

Welcome to the board.

You would be well served by either rifle... they're both top shelf manufacturers.

A few thoughts about these two rifles:

BCM--
Looks like it comes with pretty much everything already there, except for a red dot. It does have a fixed front sight that will always be there, if you find such things distracting. There's also the gap on the rail between the barrel and receiver if you were dreaming of putting your RDS right there. I've found that the Tango Down pistol grip on there is too narrow for my hands, since I have long fingers.

-- The BCM rifle is a mid-length gas system (9" vs 7" carbine), and it looks to me like that barrel is a 14.5" with a perm attached A2X flash suppressor. The perm attachment limits your options on muzzle attachments unless you're willing to SBR. Also, (and you'll find some vigorous debate on this point if you use the orange search button) some have asserted that a mid-length gas system on a 14.5" barrel is on the hairy edge of reliability, especially with under-powered ammo. I think you'll have less risk of reliability issues with middy on a 16" barrel like the DD. That said, Pat and the guys at EAG know what they're doing, and 1.5" of steel off the end of the barrel does lighten things a bit.

DD--

-- Looks like you'd need to buy some more rail sections if you wanted to mount anything other than at the end, though you do have an unbroken top rail there.

-- Some would assert that the lightweight barrel will lose some accuracy once heated up, but I doubt that will be an issue at typical carbine course distances... and I don't think anybody using a rifle ever wanted it to weigh more.

-- It does look like you'll need to spend some more coin to add irons, a decent pistol grip, and the other things you mentioned that the BCM already has.

The important issue to be aware of, I think, is the barrel length issue, but as long as you're aware of the benefits and drawbacks, either will work well for you.

[Littlelebowski]

Get the DD.

[thopkins22]

Get the DD.

Agreed. If the comparison was between two nearly identical rifles from BCM and DD it would be a tossup/whichever you preferred...but it's not a comparison between two identical rifles. It's a comparison between a very lightweight base gun that you can set up as you please, and one that's set up to someone else's preferences which you can't change certain things without expensive gun smithing.

I also don't think there's a need to toss the MOE stock, unless you absolutely need a QD at the end of it. Hell, I'd hold off on the VFG until you decide whether you actually want/need one.


ETA: Who's course are you planning on taking?

[TheJRK]

Thanks for all the good information guys... As for the rifle course, I was planning to sign up with FPF Training. I'm still relatively new to the DC Metro Area, so if there are other training opportunities nearby that someone can recommend, I'm all ears. I'd like to take a Larry Vicker's course but with a new kid it's a little tough for me to travel outside the DC area.

[JSGlock34]

As said before, they're both good rifles, though they are quite different. How did you narrow it down to these two? The DD rifle is much lighter, uses a tube style handguard and rail mounted sights, whereas the BCM rifle is heavier, uses a quad rail handguard and has a fixed front sight. What features are you looking for? All things being equal, I prefer lighter rifles.

The Bravo Company carbine is the EAG rifle designed by Pat Rogers. It comes with a certificate for $200 of training from EAG Tactical (http://www.eagtactical.com/index.asp), and Pat Rogers has been known to teach classes in Culpeper (a touch more than one hour outside of DC). I haven't seen any EAG classes listed for Virginia yet in 2012, but keep an eye on their schedule (http://www.eagtactical.com/courseschedule.asp). He talks about the carbine in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_-9cICE9cg&feature=player_embedded).

Be aware that the permanently attached muzzle device will limit your options in the future...better be sure you like this configuration as it'll be difficult and costly to make any changes to the handguard.

Something to note is that there is a lightweight version of the EAG carbine coming out - believe it is a mid-length with a lightweight profile barrel and the Magpul MOE handguards. Should cost less too. Might be worth a call to Bravo about.

Both of these are quality rifles - so you can't go wrong with either choice. However, I can't help but wonder if you would be better served with a more conventional set up for your rifle (the recent deals on Colt 6920s springs to mind) until after you've taken a class and formed some opinions about what you're looking for. Good luck with your selection.

[Treehopr]

Thanks for all the good information guys... As for the rifle course, I was planning to sign up with FPF Training. I'm still relatively new to the DC Metro Area, so if there are other training opportunities nearby that someone can recommend, I'm all ears. I'd like to take a Larry Vicker's course but with a new kid it's a little tough for me to travel outside the DC area.

As already mentioned, the EAG BCM Carbine comes with a coupon for $200 for training with EAG Tactical. Pat Rogers teaches several classes a year in VA, usually in Culpepper and Harrisonburg, both less than 2 hrs away from NoVa.

Echo Valley Training Center (High View, WV) outside of Winchester has numerous classes throughout the year at their location. Check the Grey Group website for specific dates and classes.

The EAG BCM gun was designed as a fully capable system out of the box. If you want to "assemble" your own gun than go with the DD or another BCM.

[TehLlama]

The EAG is only an outstanding value if you can attend one of the courses. Still an excellent well thought out rifle, but you can clone it through SmartGunner and have more budget for a red dot and more compact weaponlight.

Among factory rifles, the DD V5LW and V7 are great options, though I'd look towards the BCM Blemished Lowers, then a DD Upper (or something very similar). If factory complete rifle, also consider the Colt 6720 with Centurion C4 Cutout rail.


CTR, MOE, or STR stock is great, the VCAS Sling and VTAC G2LED/Mount combo is amazing. The V5 adds the option of being able to run the CTR and OmegaX rail as sling mounts for the VCAS-QD.
Aimpoint PRO or the Aimpoint H1 for the optic - both are the best in each price range

[nimslerpon]

Both are great manufacturers. I wouldn't say one is any better or worse than the other, it just depends on what you want out of the rifle. Either one will likely be a great choice.

[Littlelebowski]

A certain Bronze Star awarded moderator on this forum has a carbine class in NoVA coming up very soon.....

[jc000]

A certain Bronze Star awarded moderator on this forum has a carbine class in NoVA coming up very soon.....

Are the details posted anywhere yet or is this still in the planning stages?

[Littlelebowski]

Planning stages, coming soon.

[TheJRK]

I was Googling firearms courses and the link for EAG came up, obviously advertising their rifle. Like someone mentioned, it seemed to have almost everything you would need right out of the box, plus it had the voucher to go towards training. The only issue I had was that I might not need quad rails (could end up just being a lot of wasted space) and maybe I wouldn't like the fixed front sight, which is why I started looking at the complete other end of the spectrum and found the DDM4V7.

The parts I listed in my original post was just me trying to find the same (or comparable) items to stick on the DD and see what the overall price difference would be... i.e. what would the DDM4V7 cost if it had all of the same stuff the BCM had.

On a side note, has anyone ever shot at this range? https://peacemakernational.com/Home_Page.html

[BaronFitz]

A certain Bronze Star awarded moderator on this forum has a carbine class in NoVA coming up very soon.....

I'd be very interested, depending on what time it might be.

[C4IGrant]

Your two weapon choices are excellent, but I will give you two more LW options.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94621

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6720




C4

[TheJRK]

Thanks for listing those other options Grant.

Thanks to everyone else for listing other training opportunities.

[C4IGrant]

Thanks for listing those other options Grant.

Thanks to everyone else for listing other training opportunities.


You are welcome.


C4

[TheJRK]

Just an update... I've got a DDM4V7 on the way. Listened to everyone's advice and didn't go too nuts on the accessories. Gonna just shoot it, and then figure out what I might want to put on it before attending the course.

Used a bunch of Amazon gift cards I got for Xmas to buy some BUIS. I did get a sling and charging handle from Grant though.

[MudPuppy]

We're are you taking the rifle course?

[Punisher1336]

I have decided to take a tactical rifle course ( prior 11B) and ended up building a new AR for the class. Either of those rifles will get the job done / don't forget accessories such as mags and carriers. I got HSGI taco mag holders for rifle and pistol combo rig.