View Full Version : Sold Out By Our Politicians Again
Congratulations to the President and our Congress for selling out the American people once again. If you thought the Patriot Act was bad, this is even worse.
National Defense Authorization Bill; Here is a little info from an Editorial by the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/politics-over-principle.html?_r=1
ForTehNguyen
12-16-11, 19:46
Error 404 Due Process Not Found
QuietShootr
12-16-11, 19:47
Congratulations to the President and our Congress for selling out the American people once again. If you thought the Patriot Act was bad, this is even worse.
National Defense Authorization Bill; Here is a little info from an Editorial by the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/politics-over-principle.html?_r=1
Awesome!
Belmont31R
12-16-11, 19:51
9/11 has been the best thing to happen for our gov. Long train of abuses wrought out under the guise of "terrorism", and you're a soft terrorist lover if you oppose it! :rolleyes:
I was in the check cashing place the other day, and they had a little add in the window about signing up for their pre loaded debit card program. It said something about in order to combat terrorism the government now requires banks to share information about who is signing up for accounts, and gave a laundry list of information they need on you.
Congratulations to the President and our Congress for selling out the American people once again. If you thought the Patriot Act was bad, this is even worse.
National Defense Authorization Bill; Here is a little info from an Editorial by the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/politics-over-principle.html?_r=1
People wanted change, IG. They got exactly that. Though not necessarily for the better.
Yesterday, December 15, was Bill of Rights Day. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:
The truly sad thing is this is what OBL and AQ and all the rest of them want. They obviously never thought they could physically destroy America, THIS is the kind of shit they are after. Compare this country today to 9/10, it's just awful.
And it's a goddamn shame for the men and women who have given all they could.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-16-11, 20:35
If anybody wants to place this blame on Obama, then take a step back and look at Bush just as hard. The red R's voted for this just the same as the Blue D's. Maybe even go further back to Lincoln's suspension of Habeus Corpus, the internment of the Japanse, the initial NDAA. The democratic republic of these United States died long ago. These bills are nothing more than huckleberries in the coffin.
Read the bill, look at the language. People say it doesnt apply to US citizens, but read the legalese, it says there is no requirement to detain US citizens, it does not say that detaining US citizens is not allowed. Since there are no definers of what is and what isnt supporting terrorism, anyone can be snatched up under this bill. If you dont support the current administration then you are terrorist, I know that seems extreme, but thats what this bill allows.
As our esteemed Senator Graham said in support of this bill, “It is not unfair to make an American citizen account for the fact that they decided to help Al Qaeda to kill us all and hold them as long as it takes to find intelligence about what may be coming next,” says Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) in support of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). “And when they say, ‘I want my lawyer,’ you tell them, ‘Shut up. You don’t get a lawyer.’”
Shut up, you dont get a lawyer. Gents, there will be no revolution. The American people are asleep. There were some Jews in the 1930's that screamed at the top of their lungs about what was about to happen, but the sheeple figured that nothing like that could happen to them. Well, it did.
Go on any other forum and read the discussions about this. Most people say that if this scares you, then you are paranoid. They say if you have nothing to hide, why worry? These are gun people we are talking about here. In my lifetime, Ive seen the 14th, the 2nd, the 4th, and 1st ammendment crushed, and now the whole bill of rights is about to go away too, what a crazy 24 years that was.
If you run outside with your rifle and no one else is out there, go back inside, the revolution hasnt started yet. Its time for a peaceful revolution...until they fire the first shot, then we fire the next 500,000.
Congratulations to the President and our Congress for selling out the American people once again. If you thought the Patriot Act was bad, this is even worse.
National Defense Authorization Bill; Here is a little info from an Editorial by the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/politics-over-principle.html?_r=1
Wish I was suprised
It's really funny how Sheriff Joe is being attacked again here in AZ by the Feds and there are claims of "racial profiling" on behalf of the MCSO.
Yet, DHS can profile and say that people who are missing fingers, stockpiling food, ammo and/or guns could possibly be "terrorists". I don't see how that is any different.
I agree about this and I remember in the early days after 9-11 many argued that some of what we were doing was playingright into the hands of what they wanted.
The truly sad thing is this is what OBL and AQ and all the rest of them want. They obviously never thought they could physically destroy America, THIS is the kind of shit they are after. Compare this country today to 9/10, it's just awful.
And it's a goddamn shame for the men and women who have given all they could.
If anybody wants to place this blame on Obama, then take a step back and look at Bush just as hard. The red R's voted for this just the same as the Blue D's. Maybe even go further back to Lincoln's suspension of Habeus Corpus, the internment of the Japanse, the initial NDAA. The democratic republic of these United States died long ago. These bills are nothing more than huckleberries in the coffin.
Read the bill, look at the language. People say it doesnt apply to US citizens, but read the legalese, it says there is no requirement to detain US citizens, it does not say that detaining US citizens is not allowed. Since there are no definers of what is and what isnt supporting terrorism, anyone can be snatched up under this bill. If you dont support the current administration then you are terrorist, I know that seems extreme, but thats what this bill allows.
As our esteemed Senator Graham said in support of this bill, “It is not unfair to make an American citizen account for the fact that they decided to help Al Qaeda to kill us all and hold them as long as it takes to find intelligence about what may be coming next,” says Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) in support of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). “And when they say, ‘I want my lawyer,’ you tell them, ‘Shut up. You don’t get a lawyer.’”
Shut up, you dont get a lawyer. Gents, there will be no revolution. The American people are asleep. There were some Jews in the 1930's that screamed at the top of their lungs about what was about to happen, but the sheeple figured that nothing like that could happen to them. Well, it did.
Go on any other forum and read the discussions about this. Most people say that if this scares you, then you are paranoid. They say if you have nothing to hide, why worry? These are gun people we are talking about here. In my lifetime, Ive seen the 14th, the 2nd, the 4th, and 1st ammendment crushed, and now the whole bill of rights is about to go away too, what a crazy 24 years that was.
If you run outside with your rifle and no one else is out there, go back inside, the revolution hasnt started yet. Its time for a peaceful revolution...until they fire the first shot, then we fire the next 500,000.
i agree. when some of my less than politically astute friends complain about .gov, I always tell them to vote for the dude who raised less money or at least the other guy. both sen. rubio, one of my senators, and rep. allen west, my rep in the HOR voted for this bill. im quite displeased with these "tea party patriots".
It's really funny how Sheriff Joe is being attacked again here in AZ by the Feds and there are claims of "racial profiling" on behalf of the MCSO.
Yet, DHS can profile and say that people who are missing fingers, stockpiling food, ammo and/or guns could possibly be "terrorists". I don't see how that is any different.
I agree about this and I remember in the early days after 9-11 many argued that some of what we were doing was playingright into the hands of what they wanted.
http://www.ready.gov/food
i guess fema is telling us how to become enemies of the state!
i wonder if i can send this link to big sis?
ForTehNguyen
12-16-11, 21:11
this is why govt is always beating the warmonger drum, they can keep justifying these laws to "protect us"
When I was a kid, when any given situation became intolerable, I could say "**** this noise" and go home and no longer be subjected to whatever it was.
God how I miss that option.
montanadave
12-16-11, 21:57
Just as the Fourth of July is celebrated as America's Independence Day, 9/11 may well be mourned by future generations as the moment in this country's history when we succumbed to fear and surrendered that precious freedom for the sake of an imaginary security provided by ever more intrusive and totalitarian state.
Look on the bright side, some of us might get to retire to a quiet Caribbean island after all.
Look on the bright side, some of us might get to retire to a quiet Caribbean island after all.
What you did there? I see it.
SeriousStudent
12-17-11, 08:22
Look on the bright side, some of us might get to retire to a quiet Caribbean island after all.
For those of us that are the product of public schools, an explanation would be appreciated.
But it would probably deepen my depression over this as well. :(
What do you mean? And thank you.
Re-read the article, think about the geography you learned in school, then I'm sure you'll get it.
For those of us that are the product of public schools, an explanation would be appreciated.
But it would probably deepen my depression over this as well. :(
What do you mean? And thank you.
I think what he was alluding to was, a nice, long stay at Gitmo....3 hots, and a cot..it don't get much better than that..
Guantanamo Bay can be the all expenses paid assisted living retirement center in the Caribbean that is so good that you simply cannot say no to. They'll probably send democrats there too, so they'll get the best of both worlds, real socialism, in Cuba.
Sadly the gov selling me out is about as often as I change my kids diapers ! And pretty much the same stuff in both !
montanadave
12-17-11, 10:18
Guantanamo Bay can be the all expenses paid assisted living retirement center in the Caribbean that is so good that you simply cannot say no to. They'll probably send democrats there too, so they'll get the best of both worlds, real socialism, in Cuba.
And as an added bonus, it's downwind of Haiti! :haha:
What's that old old saying about trading Liberty for Security?
It's really funny how Sheriff Joe is being attacked again here in AZ by the Feds and there are claims of "racial profiling" on behalf of the MCSO.
Yet, DHS can profile and say that people who are missing fingers, stockpiling food, ammo and/or guns could possibly be "terrorists". I don't see how that is any different.
The law and numerous court decisions recognize racial profiling and criminal profiling as different. Criminal profiling is allowed and trained. The difference is criminal profiling is based upon actions/characteristics exhibited by the subject.
Using criminal profiling I can look into the interior of a car legally stopped while travelling on a interstate, ask a few simple questions and know with relative certainty whether it is loaded with concealed cartel dope or not. I have extensive training in this regard and it works.
Taking note that terrorists do x,y, and z prior to an attack is vastly different than...
"That guy is (insert racial identity here) and the last six guys who committed this crime were of that race.
I have not specifically read the legislation in question, so I am unable to offer an informed opinion on it. However, criminal profiling is legal, ethical, and effective.
Reagans Rascals
12-17-11, 15:54
I almost pooped my pants when I read the title.... it sounded like Ralphie looking in the mailbox for his Little Orpan Annie Secret Decoder Pin "...skunked again....."
It would have been surprising had the government not f'ed us over... that's when I'd worry... because that means the most epic of fails is brewing
Moose-Knuckle
12-17-11, 21:38
Read my signature line. . . :help:
It seems to me that lust for power just drives men mad in the end.
Well, I would imagine that our memberships here put us pretty high on the list of dangerous subversives.
Is it too early to call top bunk if I'm cell mates with someone here?
montanadave
12-18-11, 06:50
Well, I would imagine that our memberships here put us pretty high on the list of dangerous subversives.
Is it too early to call top bunk if I'm cell mates with someone here?
Just to be clear, "top bunk" only refers to one's selection of the upper sleeping accommodations in a traditional bunk bed and is not some type of jail house slang, right? :sarcastic:
We have this election thingy coming up in less than a year. Keep this in mind.
Only Ron Paul has come out against this legislation. The Newt and Magicunderwearman are still trying to figure out if they were for it before they were against it.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 09:22
It honestly makes me sick to even think about this election coming up.... god... every single one of them are two faced, flip flopping, side mouth talking, career politicians that honestly have no business leading a cow to the slaughter house, much less a country....
it's honestly sickening to know this is what we have to choose from.... its like last call at the bar, you're not even drunk.... and all you have to choose from is Roseanne, Roise Odonnell, Whoopie Goldberg, and that fat lady from Touched By An Angel... Della Reese.... just plain old ****ed either way you go... how could you consciously, soberly, make that choice.....
better off just going home and going to bed
as Monty Brewster implored us all ..."vote none of the above"
This would void the 6th Amendment for American citizens. Please watch Senator Rand Paul's statement on the subject. http://youtu.be/rghhz_t5POo
It honestly makes me sick to even think about this election coming up.... god... every single one of them are two faced, flip flopping, side mouth talking, career politicians that honestly have no business leading a cow to the slaughter house, much less a country....
All but one....
Ron Paul 2012! :cool:
We have crossed the rubicon. (http://lewrockwell.com/peters-e/peters-e124.html)
How much more straw can the camel handle?
This would void the 6th Amendment for American citizens. Please watch Senator Rand Paul's statement on the subject. http://youtu.be/rghhz_t5POo
This is more of a direct threat to the 6th amendment than the AWB ban or any other bill ever for that matter has been to the 2nd amendment. Scary stuff. The right to due process is pretty darn important and w/o it everyone here plus their loved ones & family can be held indefinitely w/o charge for being a 'threat to the nation' as defined by some unnamed figure & w/o true evidence.
Unfortunately he is not electable. There are not enough people in the voting pool that are willing to take a serious look at him. So are concerned that his views come off as "isolationist" and that it will hurt us more in the international community.
We have this election thingy coming up in less than a year. Keep this in mind.
Only Ron Paul has come out against this legislation. The Newt and Magicunderwearman are still trying to figure out if they were for it before they were against it.
I implore you to read this incredible article on the subject, "Three myths about the detention bill.", here. (http://www.salon.com/2011/12/16/three_myths_about_the_detention_bill/singleton/)
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 14:22
I just view Ron Paul as the college know-it-all hippie cop out..... you know the kind... "we've just spent our first semester at college and our professors really opened our eyes... I have some stuff you should read...lets take down the corporations...." the typical disenfranchised young adult that knows just how the world should work and how much better it would be without the government....
more than once over the past few years have I heard my hippie, pot smoking friends talk about how awesome Ron Paul is... and how he's gonna do away with taxes and bring down the establishment
if anything... I am against him solely because they are so adamant of him.... and their opinions usually revolve around drug legalization, some how getting rid of taxes (how is that going to work?), and letting us all just live together in squalor at a music festival for 300 days out of the year....
"and you know man... like we'll have a guy that like bakes stuff... and then like another guy that looks out for everyone safety... and we'll all just like live together in a commune where we can like exchange goods and services for other goods and services... "
you can't do away with taxes.... I am not going to pay 18-20% sales tax when I buy a car... that is flat out stupid... and then turn around and do it again on my house and other goods every year...
yeah America did just fine without the income tax up until 1913.... but that was no where near even comparable to the America we have today.... running today's military alone for 1 month would dwarf the budget of the entire country in 1913
When Glenn Beck, Dianne Feinstein, Rand Paul and the ACLU all stand on the same side of an issue you know there's something wrong with it for the American people.
thopkins22
12-18-11, 15:01
I just view Ron Paul as the college know-it-all hippie cop out..... you know the kind... "we've just spent our first semester at college and our professors really opened our eyes... I have some stuff you should read...lets take down the corporations...." the typical disenfranchised young adult that knows just how the world should work and how much better it would be without the government....
Then maybe you shouldn't vote. If you don't agree with him, that's fine. But be educated enough to know the difference between a hippie and a libertarian before you write either off. And for what it's worth, his policies are the most favorable to corporations out of anyone in the race. Perhaps not corporations that are where they are thanks to big government though if that's what you mean. But that's not a healthy economy, corporations should be huge for the reasons that Apple, Microsoft, and many oil companies are huge...because they enrich our lives. Not because they have their people all throughout the treasury department.
And for the record, a 1% tax on ALL goods and services with no exemptions would bring in enough money to pay for all services the government provides with the exception of entitlements which apparently you're quite content with.
Also, it's pointless trying to pick out particular policies and saying that they wouldn't work in modern America. You need to read his platform and ideas. But things like doing away with the income tax/theft/slavery and slashing everything else are intellectually honest answers, but often need to be accompanied with other ideas. Without government interference, housing and automobile prices wouldn't be so high to begin with. The military can slash huge amounts of money without touching things like small arms/benefits for service men etc.... Unfortunately, when most politicians are concerned that's where the money is slashed because soldiers don't have lobbyists but Northrop Grumman/GE/Raytheon/whomever else does.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 16:06
Then maybe you shouldn't vote. If you don't agree with him, that's fine. But be educated enough to know the difference between a hippie and a libertarian before you write either off. And for what it's worth, his policies are the most favorable to corporations out of anyone in the race. Perhaps not corporations that are where they are thanks to big government though if that's what you mean. But that's not a healthy economy, corporations should be huge for the reasons that Apple, Microsoft, and many oil companies are huge...because they enrich our lives. Not because they have their people all throughout the treasury department.
And for the record, a 1% tax on ALL goods and services with no exemptions would bring in enough money to pay for all services the government provides with the exception of entitlements which apparently you're quite content with.
Also, it's pointless trying to pick out particular policies and saying that they wouldn't work in modern America. You need to read his platform and ideas. But things like doing away with the income tax/theft/slavery and slashing everything else are intellectually honest answers, but often need to be accompanied with other ideas. Without government interference, housing and automobile prices wouldn't be so high to begin with. The military can slash huge amounts of money without touching things like small arms/benefits for service men etc.... Unfortunately, when most politicians are concerned that's where the money is slashed because soldiers don't have lobbyists but Northrop Grumman/GE/Raytheon/whomever else does.
I was describing those that I know of personally that are completely enraptured with him, which is why I called him the college hippie cop out, as in, they do no research or anything of their own, and simply throw Ron Paul's name out there as the savior of our country because he wants to do away with the tax man.
So now, in addition to sales tax, property tax, and various other taxes, I'm required to pay a 1% tax on every thing I do?
I have to pay a 1% tax on cable tv when I already pay sales tax and other state taxes on it? So I would be paying tax on tax essentially? I would have to pay an additional 1% tax on gas in addition to the other fuel surcharges. That's the alternative? No income tax, but pay tax on every single other thing you buy or use?
Is it just me, or does that not seem like it would result in paying more money per year than income tax? But because its not coming from my income, and is not labeled as a wage/income tax, then its ok because its not a tyrannical government flexing their hold over the lives and labors of its citizens..... its merely me having to pay for every single thing I do.
I think I'd rather pay a set percentage in income tax, than be forced to pay a tax on every single thing I do, buy, or partake of.
Park tax, beach tax, sunny day tax, fart tax, blumpkin tax.... wheres the line?
I love his stance on non-intervention, and I will even go as far as to say that yes, as far as those that are currently in the running are concerned, Mr. Paul would be the best choice, in my opinion. But actions speak louder than rhetoric.
I was describing those that I know of personally that are completely enraptured with him, which is why I called him the college hippie cop out, as in, they do no research or anything of their own, and simply throw Ron Paul's name out there as the savior of our country because he wants to do away with the tax man.
So now, in addition to sales tax, property tax, and various other taxes, I'm required to pay a 1% tax on every thing I do?
I have to pay a 1% tax on cable tv when I already pay sales tax and other state taxes on it? So I would be paying tax on tax essentially? I would have to pay an additional 1% tax on gas in addition to the other fuel surcharges. That's the alternative? No income tax, but pay tax on every single other thing you buy or use?
Is it just me, or does that not seem like it would result in paying more money per year than income tax? But because its not coming from my income, and is not labeled as a wage/income tax, then its ok because its not a tyrannical government flexing their hold over the lives and labors of its citizens..... its merely me having to pay for every single thing I do.
I think I'd rather pay a set percentage in income tax, than be forced to pay a tax on every single thing I do, buy, or partake of.
Park tax, beach tax, sunny day tax, fart tax, blumpkin tax.... wheres the line?
Ron Paul 2012!
curious for Ron Paul fans what you think when he says maybe we should just try to be friends with Iran and it will be OK and its OK they have nukes !!!!
those things alone make me wonder ? I like other things about him but those ???? not so much
thopkins22
12-18-11, 16:27
I was describing those that I know of personally that are completely enraptured with him, which is why I called him the college hippie cop out, as in, they do no research or anything of their own, and simply throw Ron Paul's name out there as the savior of our country because he wants to do away with the tax man.
So now, in addition to sales tax, property tax, and various other taxes, I'm required to pay a 1% tax on every thing I do?
I have to pay a 1% tax on cable tv when I already pay sales tax and other state taxes on it? So I would be paying tax on tax essentially? I would have to pay an additional 1% tax on gas in addition to the other fuel surcharges. That's the alternative? No income tax, but pay tax on every single other thing you buy or use?
Is it just me, or does that not seem like it would result in paying more money per year than income tax? But because its not coming from my income, and is not labeled as a wage/income tax, then its ok because its not a tyrannical government flexing their hold over the lives and labors of its citizens..... its merely me having to pay for every single thing I do.
I think I'd rather pay a set percentage in income tax, than be forced to pay a tax on every single thing I do, buy, or partake of.
Park tax, beach tax, sunny day tax, fart tax, blumpkin tax.... wheres the line?
I love his stance on non-intervention, and I will even go as far as to say that yes, as far as those that are currently in the running are concerned, Mr. Paul would be the best choice, in my opinion. But actions speak louder than rhetoric.
I'd also be relatively okay with a flat tax, but in my opinion a tax system that rewards savings and allows people to accrue wealth instead of being suffocated back into your current income bracket is a good thing. A consumption tax and usage fees are far more fair. I don't want to pay for something I don't use, I don't have to. A hell of a lot better than being forced to pay for things I don't use, and possibly don't even believe in.
curious for Ron Paul fans what you think when he says maybe we should just try to be friends with Iran and it will be OK and its OK they have nukes !!!!
those things alone make me wonder ? I like other things about him but those ???? not so much
Is he perfect? Nope. Is he MUCH better in just about every topic then every other candidate put forth? Yep.
When Glenn Beck, Dianne Feinstein, Rand Paul and the ACLU all stand on the same side of an issue you know there's something wrong with it for the American people.
And Keith Olberman :eek:
We have a 2012 presidential election thread. This thread is a very important issue and shouldn't be clouded by these issues and arguments.
variablebinary
12-18-11, 16:53
There is only a handful of politicians committed to idea of expanding personal freedoms and curtailing government.
Ron Paul is one of them. Good luck with anyone else.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 18:18
I'd also be relatively okay with a flat tax, but in my opinion a tax system that rewards savings and allows people to accrue wealth instead of being suffocated back into your current income bracket is a good thing. A consumption tax and usage fees are far more fair. I don't want to pay for something I don't use, I don't have to. A hell of a lot better than being forced to pay for things I don't use, and possibly don't even believe in.
right now, you pay property tax which sends other peoples kids to school regardless if you have kids of your own, you pay into social security regardless of the fact that we will never be able to draw out of it when its our time, you pay EMS tax regardless if you'll ever need an ambulance, you currently pay income tax that goes to so many different sources its undefinable as to what it actually pays, a short list just for instance; posti-vac dick pumps for limp men on medicare, unemployment and welfare so those on it don't have to work, student aid so kids that aren't your own and people that aren't yourself can get a degree from Remington College in Cosmetology, and the lap band system so morbidly obese people can lose weight without actually working out, as well as hair plugs for those that need them through medicare....
all of those things we are all currently paying for with our taxes, not even the tip of the iceberg of the superfluous spending this country engages in.
I doubt simply eliminating income tax will do away with the corrupt and blatantly wasteful programs those in power have deemed "necessary" for the public well being.
Why are pilots, who have more than 2000 lives in the average day put in their charge, required to pay their own way through flight school, accruing upwards of $80,000 in debt through high interest private loans and home refinancing, while an "under privileged" minority is allowed to draw low interest government backed loans to attend dental tech or hair dresser school.....
Is it just my severely damaged moral compass, or is air travel not of vital importance to this country's infrastructure, considering the 2 million + souls who depend on it each day.
However, those 2 million lives are entrusted to men and women that are in $40-80k worth of debt, while only making around $18,000 a year on average at the regional level.... paying for their own training yet still expected to maintain the utmost safety...
But I guess the government views getting your teef fixed or your hair did more important when it comes to educational financing laws....
once again, its not the taxes, its the morbidly misplaced priorities of this country we need to focus on
Mauser KAR98K
12-18-11, 18:33
At least our gun rights have been loosened for a while. Might come in handy.
At least our gun rights have been loosened for a while. Might come in handy.
Without the 6th amendment protecting those of us with firearms, the means to use them and the intelligence to know right from wrong I'm not sure how much good that would do.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 18:52
I don't think non-US citizens detained throughout the world as suspected terrorists should have ever been provided the rights a citizen of this country are entitled to, due process being one of them. **** them... sucks to be you... maybe you shouldn't have been buying so much electrical wire, batteries, and nails to send to your cousin in Kabul to help "fix his tv".... I concede that not all of our swift justice is valid, but more times than not it is....
However, its absurd to claim that a US citizen is to be detained indefinitely, with no trial, and no formal charges. I don't see how congress will ever let this continue, if so, this is a conspired ****-up of such monumental proportions that we haven't seen anything yet.....
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-11, 19:13
I don't think non-US citizens detained throughout the world as suspected terrorists should have ever been provided the rights a citizen of this country are entitled to, due process being one of them. **** them... sucks to be you... maybe you shouldn't have been buying so much electrical wire, batteries, and nails to send to your cousin in Kabul to help "fix his tv".... I concede that not all of our swift justice is valid, but more times than not it is....
..
Wow. "You aint a US city-zen, so that means my country can detain you forever with no rights for any reason!! But, if you is a city-zen, then God save us all if theys starts-a-detainin' you, you be a human being and you gots your rights!!"
Take that ignorant bullshit somewhere else. No one in the world should be robbed of due process, no matter what their nationality. Justice is blind to borders, the guilty shall be tried with the innocent, and the verdict shall determine the outcome.
You seem to be a fan of oppressive government regimes, as long as it doesnt affect you. Dont deny, its already in writing.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 19:39
Wow. "You aint a US city-zen, so that means my country can detain you forever with no rights for any reason!! But, if you is a city-zen, then God save us all if theys starts-a-detainin' you, you be a human being and you gots your rights!!"
Take that ignorant bullshit somewhere else. No one in the world should be robbed of due process, no matter what their nationality. Justice is blind to borders, the guilty shall be tried with the innocent, and the verdict shall determine the outcome.
You seem to be a fan of oppressive government regimes, as long as it doesnt affect you. Dont deny, its already in writing.
I don't recall denying anything, in fact I recall overtly stating that simply being human, does not guarantee anyone to anything. Men died to provide those in this country with the rights they have, not for anyone and everyone in the world. So I guess by your logic, anyone anywhere in the world should be provided with every single right and privilege we are given here in this country? So I guess Mahatmanod in Pakistan should be allowed to get get student aid from the US? What about unemployment?
If they are not a US citizen, they are not entitled to US rights as a citizen. Just as I'm not entitled to the protection and rights provided to a German or a British citizen.
Justice is not blind to borders, if you believe that you are severely disillusioned. Otherwise, why do we require extradition orders to be approved by the harboring nation before we can try that individual in the US? Justice is geographically blind, so in the name of justice we can go in and take them right?
I never said they are not entitled to protection from their home nation, or that they are not allowed to be tried within an international court. I said they should not be given the rights of a US CITIZEN.... BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT A US CITIZEN.
Due process is a framework of OUR constitution, provided under the blanket of protection to US CITIZENS once again, not foreign citizens.
If they would like due process under our laws, the number for ICE is easily attained just as form N-400 is.... or perhaps its just easier to not get caught setting up IED's?
Armed Combatants detained from the battlefield should never even get to that step to begin with. When they made the conscious decision to take up arms against us, they did that fully aware of the consequences of their doing so, therefore they've publicly affirmed their intentions, waving all rights to due process, just as they intended to deprive our soldiers of...
I am a US citizen, and I have never taken up arms against my nation, therefore I am provided the rights my constitution has established shall be mine. If I do something to warrant those rights being revoked, then its my own fault. If I drink and drive, its my countries prerogative to revoke my license. I can't expect Jordan or Denmark to give me the same rights I have here if I'm caught drinking and driving in their country. Just as a Jordanian cannot expect the inverse.
But when a modern government attempts to deprive its own citizens of the rights by which they themselves were elected, based on long established national framework and doctrine, that is unacceptable.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-11, 19:56
Assorted words put together to form sentences.
Good job. You pulled alot of nonsense out of your ass and claimed that had anything to do with what I was saying.
I'll say it again, no one in the world should ever be indefintely detained by any Government, ESPECIALLY the US Government, until they recieve due process. I will stand for my government indefinately detaining foreign nationals because we "think" they might be guilty. You can rant and rave about student aide and immigration somewhere else, because you are the only discussing that. I wont watch my fellow citizens being detained and held for no reason, and I wont the United States to do it to innocent people of other nations. What makes that so disgusting to you? Do you think our forefathers died so we could hold Tommy Canada or Billy Australia for no ****ing reason other than "his suspicious involvement in something"?
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 20:17
Good job. You pulled alot of nonsense out of your ass and claimed that had anything to do with what I was saying.
I'll say it again, no one in the world should ever be indefintely detained by any Government, ESPECIALLY the US Government, until they recieve due process. I will stand for my government indefinately detaining foreign nationals because we "think" they might be guilty. You can rant and rave about student aide and immigration somewhere else, because you are the only discussing that. I wont watch my fellow citizens being detained and held for no reason, and I wont the United States to do it to innocent people of other nations. What makes that so disgusting to you? Do you think our forefathers died so we could hold Tommy Canada or Billy Australia for no ****ing reason other than "his suspicious involvement in something"?
Did those forefathers die to provide Mr. Jihadist with a public defender and a swift trial after he blew apart US soldiers?
how did you become disillusioned to the fact that Tommy Canada and Billy Australia are entitled to US rights? They are entitled to Canadian and Australian rights. Whats the point in being a citizen if it doesn't provide anything I can't get otherwise without paying taxes, in fact... we could all just go live in the Bahamas, never pay taxes again, but still have every single right and privilege we have right now with no loss whatsoever and just call up the US whenever we're having problems
and if you'll actually read my prior statements, I never said its fine to detain anyone indefinitely, I simply stated foreign citizens are not entitled to US rights, and Due Process as defined is a US right afforded to its citizens.
That doesn't mean they are not entitled to a trial internationally or within their home nation. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, but I think you'd skin your own a little differently than the stray down the street.
sounds like you're in the school of thinking torture is never an option, regardless of how many lives are at stake.
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... and if you happen to be in the few... sorry... life's a bitch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process
"....it has always been applicable to any entity with the legal power to deprive one of life, liberty, and property within the jurisdiction of the United States..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_treatment
"....Under national treatment, if a state grants a particular right, benefit or privilege to its own citizens, it must also grant those advantages to the citizens of other states while they are in that country. In the context of international agreements, a state must provide equal treatment to those citizens of other states that are participating in the agreement.
we have no agreement with Afghanistan or the majority of other middle eastern countries
VooDoo6Actual
12-18-11, 20:58
There is NO bright side when/to losing liberty or freedoms...EVER
variablebinary
12-18-11, 21:06
No one in the world should be robbed of due process, no matter what their nationality.
Detention until the end of hostilities is perfectly legal under the rules of war.
All nations hold POW's until victory or defeat. The only difference is some nations have death marches, mock trials and decapitations, and others have beach resorts in Cuba.
Take your pick.
However, there are laws on our books that apply to our citizens, and we certainly cannot detain an AMERICAN citizen without "due process"
Detention until the end of hostilities is perfectly legal under the rules of war.
The problem is that the "War on Terror" is never ending just like the War on Drugs/Poverty/Illiterasee, etc.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 21:34
I find it impossible to hold the belief that a conscious human being, of sound mind, who cognitively sits and plans out the murder, as in the malicious killing of another individual not of self defense, fully aware of his actions, should be afforded due process.
The only due process that individual has an inalienable right to is the process of transitioning from living tissue into biomass in the stomach of a worm...
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-11, 21:35
The problem is that the "War on Terror" is never ending just like the War on Drugs/Poverty/Illiterasee, etc.
Exactly. I have no problems with legitimate POW's being held, especially in wars with an end. We will be fighting the "Global War on Terror" for the rest of our lives, and our childrens lives.
To those who continue to shout about US law not applying to other countries, well duh. Does that make it right to capture a citizen of another country and hold them forever without any legal proceeding simply because we suspect they did something?
I'll bow out of this one, the ignorance is astounding in here. I enjoy M4C too much to be banned over this thread.
Read Matt Bracken's book, "Enemies Foreign and Domestic". Its a good novel, and although it was written about 10 years ago, its coming true today.
"...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."
American soldiers died to construct a government that would secure those rights. That is not to say that any men of foreign nationalities should be be denied those rights.
Due process is "our way" of doing things and, no, foreigners are not entitled to that process. They are, however, entitled to what a reasonable person would deem fair and just treatment.
I find it impossible to hold the belief that a conscious human being, of sound mind, who cognitively sits and plans out the murder, as in the malicious killing of another individual not of self defense, fully aware of his actions, should be afforded due process.
That is an extremely irrational and un-American statement. The purpose of due process is to PROVE that "a conscious human being, of sound mind, cognitively [sat] and [planned] out the murder, as in the malicious killing of another individual."
Our justice system operates under the fundamental idea that we would rather let a guilty man go free that put an innocent man in prison.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 21:57
Due process is "our way" of doing things and, no, foreigners are not entitled to that process. They are, however, entitled to what a reasonable person would deem fair and just treatment.
And I agree, within reason. I would not deem cutting the heads off our troops to be fair and reasonable treatment, and therefore although I may not present those individuals responsible with the same outcome, I'm surely not going to provide them with the same rights as the men they dishonored.
There is a complete difference between what is right and wrong, and what is acceptable behavior based on conditions, contexts and circumstances, on all fronts. That meaning, although it is a war and bad things happen and are usually tolerated, atrocities such as decapitation and mutilation are still not acceptable.
So are the men that commit those atrocities still guaranteed human rights and civil treatment? How can you provide someone a benefit when they themselves show such a blatant disregard for those same benefits of others?
Would you rather just do away with those people and be done with it? Or would you rather pay for them to stand trial and then live a life without want in a US facility? Under US protection and hospitality?
I agree that holding presumed innocent non-combatants without charge, indefinitely is morally and ethically wrong, however where is the line drawn as to the benefit of the doubt? The presumption of their innocence?
Is a man discovered laying IED's in the road, without compunction as to who it maims or kills, be it US soldier or just a child from their own village, still to be presumed innocent? Is he still allowed to stand trial, at which he could possibly be released, free to return to continue killing once again?
...Our justice system operates under the fundamental idea that we would rather let a guilty man go free that put an innocent man in prison...
We just can't risk that anymore, not it today's times
There has to be some measurable innocence degree, we cannot simply allow those that are truly guilty to go free, back to their lives of murder and martyrdom, the stakes are simply too high this time around, there are too many lives at risk.
All within reason, if someone is "suspected" of engaging in terroristic activities, with no clear cut evidence or no first hand accounts of them doing it, then yes their guilt has to be proven. However; if I see that man laying those IED's in the road, why do I or anyone else for that matter owe him anything?
Until there is a better system, what else can we do? We can either kill them, continue to hold them, or let them go.... which decision are you willing to risk our and every other persons life on?
thopkins22
12-18-11, 22:06
I find it impossible to hold the belief that a conscious human being, of sound mind, who cognitively sits and plans out the murder, as in the malicious killing of another individual not of self defense, fully aware of his actions, should be afforded due process.
The only due process that individual has an inalienable right to is the process of transitioning from living tissue into biomass in the stomach of a worm...
And yet civilian courts have been more successful in trying terrorists than the tribunals have been. The system works, and it also happens to be part of what makes us better than them.
ETA:The world has never been a safer place to live in the recorded history of mankind. You have never before been less likely to die of violence(as a random person on the planet) than right now. I refuse to be afraid.
DeltaSierra
12-18-11, 22:27
ReagansRascals,
You fail to understand a very basic idea here...
These people that you hate so fervently for daring to kill US troops, are only doing the exact same thing that any true patriot would do if there were foreign troops patrolling our streets, and randomly killing unarmed civilians for things like selling black market gasoline.
How can these people be so evil, when they believe that they are only defending their country, and their way of life?
When the US went into Iraq, one of the first things that was done, was to force Iraqi farmers to use Genetically Modified seeds, bought from Monsanto. That is one of the key reasons why there are Iraqis that are willing to fight against what they believe to be an invading army.
With your line of thought, George Washington should have been executed for daring to fire on troops sent by his lawful government to suppress what the English considered to be an insurrection...
Being caught red-handed is one thing. In a truly black and white scenario where the man laying IED's is seen by many people and perhaps even videotaped, have the observing individuals go on record and make a formal report. After proper authorization, take him out and execute him behind a storage shed. In a case like that there is no need for a several-month-long trial nor is it worth the expense of incarcerating the individual.
When it comes the gray areas, I am not willing to assume guilt and I strongly emphasize the presumption of innocence; whether it be a US citizen being tried under domestic law or a foreign POW. Penalizing innocent men is what we can't risk, no matter how dangerous the times.
I find it impossible to hold the belief that a conscious human being, of sound mind, who cognitively sits and plans out the murder, as in the malicious killing of another individual not of self defense, fully aware of his actions, should be afforded due process.
The only due process that individual has an inalienable right to is the process of transitioning from living tissue into biomass in the stomach of a worm...
And I agree, within reason. I would not deem cutting the heads off our troops to be fair and reasonable treatment, and therefore although I may not present those individuals responsible with the same outcome, I'm surely not going to provide them with the same rights as the men they dishonored.
There is a complete difference between what is right and wrong, and what is acceptable behavior based on conditions, contexts and circumstances, on all fronts. That meaning, although it is a war and bad things happen and are usually tolerated, atrocities such as decapitation and mutilation are still not acceptable.
So are the men that commit those atrocities still guaranteed human rights and civil treatment? How can you provide someone a benefit when they themselves show such a blatant disregard for those same benefits of others?
Would you rather just do away with those people and be done with it? Or would you rather pay for them to stand trial and then live a life without want in a US facility? Under US protection and hospitality?
I agree that holding presumed innocent non-combatants without charge, indefinitely is morally and ethically wrong, however where is the line drawn as to the benefit of the doubt? The presumption of their innocence?
Is a man discovered laying IED's in the road, without compunction as to who it maims or kills, be it US soldier or just a child from their own village, still to be presumed innocent? Is he still allowed to stand trial, at which he could possibly be released, free to return to continue killing once again?
We just can't risk that anymore, not it today's times
There has to be some measurable innocence degree, we cannot simply allow those that are truly guilty to go free, back to their lives of murder and martyrdom, the stakes are simply too high this time around, there are too many lives at risk.
All within reason, if someone is "suspected" of engaging in terroristic activities, with no clear cut evidence or no first hand accounts of them doing it, then yes their guilt has to be proven. However; if I see that man laying those IED's in the road, why do I or anyone else for that matter owe him anything?
Until there is a better system, what else can we do? We can either kill them, continue to hold them, or let them go.... which decision are you willing to risk our and every other persons life on?
I've tried to read what you're posting here and it's making me ill. You need to stop hanging out with loser hippie potheads and go back to school. You don't understand economics, the US tax code, good governance, the Constitution, or freedom. You sound like some shrill soccer mom who stopped thinking the day she punched out her first kid, and simply vomits out whatever flits across her daytime TV addled brain at the moment.
Seriously, it's embarrassing. :(
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 23:18
I've tried to read what you're posting here and it's making me ill. You need to stop hanging out with loser hippie potheads and go back to school. You don't understand economics, the US tax code, good governance, the Constitution, or freedom. You sound like some shrill soccer mom who stopped thinking the day she punched out her first kid, and simply vomits out whatever flits across her daytime TV addled brain at the moment.
Seriously, it's embarrassing. :(
you nailed it
I appreciate someone of your stature, a Quintuple PhD. in Economics, Tax Code, Governing, The Constitution, and Freedom, taking the time to educate the peasants
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 23:31
ReagansRascals,
You fail to understand a very basic idea here...
These people that you hate so fervently for daring to kill US troops, are only doing the exact same thing that any true patriot would do if there were foreign troops patrolling our streets, and randomly killing unarmed civilians for things like selling black market gasoline.
How can these people be so evil, when they believe that they are only defending their country, and their way of life?
When the US went into Iraq, one of the first things that was done, was to force Iraqi farmers to use Genetically Modified seeds, bought from Monsanto. That is one of the key reasons why there are Iraqis that are willing to fight against what they believe to be an invading army.
With your line of thought, George Washington should have been executed for daring to fire on troops sent by his lawful government to suppress what the English considered to be an insurrection...
I don't recall Mr. Washington attacking public areas filled with non-combatants, with the sole intention of inflicting as many casualties as possible.
Perspective is one thing. However we are not discussing Hossein Fahmideh fighting back against the evil invaders to protect the homeland, we are discussing individuals who have declared all those not within the scope of their narrow religious contexts to be targets, men women and children.
I've never once said detain any random person we want, lock them up, and just never think about them again.
If you'd read back over the previous comments you'd realize I am all for due process for those that are deemed deserving.
However, you cannot provide all suspects, innocent or guilty, with the same rights. There are many shades of grey. Precisely as I've stated multiple times.
This entire argument is a battle of semantics. I originally stated that due process is solely defined as being provided by the constitution for US citizens, not anyone and everyone.
That doesn't mean there is no international standard from the UN or NATO or the EU. And I never said foreign citizens are not entitled to the idea of due process, I said they are not entitled to US rights. Just as I am not entitled to Italian rights.
How is all of this that hard to understand?
and since when is the motivating factor driving a combatant even taken into consideration during war? Explain the difference when they are fighting the evil invaders to defend their home or simply trying to kill people... I don't think its that easy to decipher while being shot at. This is not WW2 with troops being forced to fight a war regardless of their own personal convictions, and then returning home once the war is over. This is religious ideology that will have no end, and is on total choice. And those sons that fight because the Taliban have forced them, you would think they would welcome US intervention in extinguishing the Taliban and Al Qaeda presence, freeing them of the constant fear of death and allowing them to return to their prior lives.
I don't recall Mr. Washington attacking public areas filled with non-combatants, with the sole intention of inflicting as many casualties as possible.
Perspective is one thing. However we are not discussing Hossein Fahmideh fighting back against the evil invaders to protect the homeland, we are discussing individuals who have declared all those not within the scope of their narrow religious contexts to be targets, men women and children.
I've never once said detain any random person we want, lock them up, and just never think about them again.
If you'd read back over the previous comments you'd realize I am all for due process for those that are deemed deserving.
However, you cannot provide all suspects, innocent or guilty, with the same rights. There are many shades of grey. Precisely as I've stated multiple times.
This entire argument is a battle of semantics. I originally stated that due process is solely defined as being provided by the constitution for US citizens, not anyone and everyone.
That doesn't mean there is no international standard from the UN or NATO or the EU. And I never said foreign citizens are not entitled to the idea of due process, I said they are not entitled to US rights. Just as I am not entitled to Italian rights.
How is all of this that hard to understand?
When terrorists rack up a body count approaching that of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and various other officially sanctioned governments have, I'll worry more about giving the military power over Americans on American soil. Till then, how about we use them to keep the bad guys out of the country, and us civvies will worry about any of them that are already here?
Is that hard to understand? :rolleyes:
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 23:43
When terrorists rack up a body count approaching that of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and various other officially sanctioned governments have, I'll worry more about giving the military power over Americans on American soil. Till then, how about we use them to keep the bad guys out of the country, and us civvies will worry about any of them that are already here?
Is that hard to understand? :rolleyes:
I don't understand what you are getting at.... I've never once throughout the entire breadth of this conversation said the military, or our government for that matter, should be allowed to do anything to US citizens....
I've said exactly what you just did, multiple times tonight....
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-18-11, 23:44
you nailed it
I appreciate someone of your stature, a Quintuple PhD. in Economics, Tax Code, Governing, The Constitution, and Freedom, taking the time to educate the peasants
Well, look at your previous posts. You sound like you really love freedom, as long as it only applies to yourself.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 23:53
Well, look at your previous posts. You sound like you really love freedom, as long as it only applies to yourself.
here's a correction, feel free to quote me:
I love my AMERICAN FREEDOM, as it applies to AMERICAN CITIZENS
Rights and Freedom are not synonymous
Everyone should have freedom, but the rights of US citizenship should belong to US citizens.
Illegal immigrants living in California should be allowed to get drivers licenses, use government funded health care, earn money, all the while paying no taxes? simply because they are people too?
there's a right and wrong way to do things, you aren't vicariously provided rights simply because you exist. If someone wants US rights, they can apply to be a US citizen.
If I want to take advantage of the universal health care in Canada, I need to apply to become a Canadian citizen and then pay my fair share of taxes... its literally that simple.
if you want membership benefits... you become a member... that's all there is to it
thopkins22
12-19-11, 00:02
here's a correction, feel free to quote me:
I love my AMERICAN FREEDOM, as it applies to AMERICAN CITIZENS
Rights and Freedom are not synonymous
Everyone should have freedom, but the rights of US citizenship should belong to US citizens.
Illegal immigrants living in California should be allowed to get drivers licenses, use government funded health care, earn money, all the while paying no taxes? simply because they are people too?
there's a right and wrong way to do things, you aren't vicariously provided rights simply because you exist. If someone wants US rights, they can apply to be a US citizen.
If I want to take advantage of the universal health care in Canada, I need to apply to become a Canadian citizen and then pay my fair share of taxes... its literally that simple.
Drivers licenses and healthcare are not rights. The things listed in the Bill of Rights are in fact rights, and it's written as such. It lists things the government cannot do...not things that citizens can.
Rights are not granted from the government, the government can't grant them, because they never owned them in the first place. Rights are inherent in our humanity, or if you're religious then they are granted to us by God. I'm fine with "membership benefits" in the sense that illegal aliens shouldn't be taking advantage of services we provide...that's committing fraud and is stealing from Americans who paid for them.
The Declaration of Independence makes it quite clear.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Note that says "among them." A thought that is finished(albeit imperfectly,) in the Bill of Rights.
variablebinary
12-19-11, 00:04
With your line of thought, George Washington should have been executed for daring to fire on troops sent by his lawful government to suppress what the English considered to be an insurrection...
Cornwallis would agree ;)
Reagans Rascals
12-19-11, 00:06
Drivers licenses and healthcare are not rights. The things listed in the Bill of Rights are in fact rights, and it's written as such. It lists things the government cannot do...not things that citizens can.
Rights are not granted from the government, the government can't grant them, because they never owned them in the first place. Rights are inherent in our humanity, or if you're religious then they are granted to us by God.
The Declaration of Independence makes it quite clear. Note that says "among them." A thought that is finished(albeit imperfectly,) in the Bill of Rights.
and those rights are further established in the Bill of Rights, in a document called the Constitution of the United States of America, not the World Constitution.
And it pertains to those living within her borders. Under her rule. Not everyone everywhere.
how can any of you even begin to argue that US rights are for everyone that wants them, anywhere in the world, and not just those that live within the United States, abiding by its laws and contributing to its being by producing and consuming goods, and paying taxes.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-19-11, 00:18
EDITED BY ME: Nevermind, Im not being nice here. Its christmas time, and the big man upstairs wouldnt be happy with my attitude.
Lets just try to remember that God, not the USA, gave rights to man, and any Governing body that attempts to take those away should be no friend of ours. Freedom is a right, a drivers license is a privelege. Freedom or death. Merry Christmas.
...........
Gents, there will be no revolution. The American people are asleep. There were some Jews in the 1930's that screamed at the top of their lungs about what was about to happen, but the sheeple figured that nothing like that could happen to them. Well, it did.
Go on any other forum and read the discussions about this. Most people say that if this scares you, then you are paranoid. They say if you have nothing to hide, why worry? These are gun people we are talking about here. In my lifetime, Ive seen the 14th, the 2nd, the 4th, and 1st ammendment crushed, and now the whole bill of rights is about to go away too, what a crazy 24 years that was.
If you run outside with your rifle and no one else is out there, go back inside, the revolution hasnt started yet. Its time for a peaceful revolution...until they fire the first shot, then we fire the next 500,000.
Given the way things are in the first two paragraphs there, "we" may not even get 1. Yes, I'm feeling a little extra pessimistic tonight, but the way I figure, anything that goes down will be such a surprise that by the time anyone is in a position to unf*** things it will be to late. So much of "that can/would/will never happen here" floating around it's sickening.
Just figured I'd pour a little extra Christmas cheer on the fire here.
It seems to me that lust for power just drives men mad in the end.
"...I have both held and beheld unlimited power and of it I know but one thing- it drives men mad"- Alexander the Great
On the original topic- Gee really? What a surprise. :rolleyes:
Well this turned into a train wreck of epic ****ing proportions. Good job. I posted this to hopefully make others aware of the dangers and instead certain members turned rabid and attacked each other.
The dangers of this legislation are real. Take the time to read it. As someone else mentioned; when people like Feinstein, Glenn Beck, the ACLU and other conservatives see a problem then you know something is wrong.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.