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[davidjinks]

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[leadsender]

So what was the original problem with the tap?

[davidjinks]

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[BCmJUnKie]

What a nightmare.

So why is it illegal for you to have it?

TAP is the ONLY ammo I use for my HD carbines.

I shoot about 300 through both my M4 and SBR...I have never had a problem aquiring this "Forbidden" ammo.

Thats ridiculous for him to talk to you like that, "Are you LEO?"

I would have said "No Im the CONSUMER!"

[leadsender]

The claimed velocity is from a 24" barrel so it's inherently going to be faster looking at other claims on a SBR on 11" he was getting around 2300 fps. But I agree that their customer service was piss poor. Hope u at least get something back

[BCmJUnKie]

Im not understanding why he said its illegal?

Its not exactly like the hype of Black Talons, not sure why THOSE were illegal either.

I have been buying TAP for over a year now

[Iraqgunz]

The load he is referring to is a 5.56 load (product no. 8126N). Hornady will not generally sell this to the public because it is loaded to 5.56 specifications and they don't want the liability of morons blowing up their .223 crap guns with it.

When I bought mine from Hornady I had to sign a disclaimer.

That is my understanding and that's why you cannot find it.

Black Talon was never illegal and in fact the Winchester Ranger SXT line (IIRC) is the same or similar without the "evil" black coating. It was sensationalized by the media and Winchester pulled it due to PR concerns.


Im not understanding why he said its illegal?

Its not exactly like the hype of Black Talons, not sure why THOSE were illegal either.

I have been buying TAP for over a year now

[Iraqgunz]

My SBR (11.5" and 12.5") were averaging around 2550 FPS when we checked the load last weekend.


I forgot to put that in...

Hornady claims a velocity for this round at 2700 FPS. According the the manager I talked to I should be seeing 2765 FPS.

That's directly from Hornady.

[Iraqgunz]

That is not correct. If you read the Hornady Test Report the 5.56 TAP T2 loading was tested with a 14.5", 16" and 20 inch barrels.

Pages 35-38-ish.

http://www.hornadyle.com/_img/hornady_tap_report.pdf


The claimed velocity is from a 24" barrel so it's inherently going to be faster looking at other claims on a SBR on 11" he was getting around 2300 fps. But I agree that their customer service was piss poor. Hope u at least get something back

[Submariner]

Hornady TAP 75 Gr. .223



What is the part number? What is the lot number?

[davidjinks]

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[davidjinks]

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[bp7178]

Did he actually say it was "illegal" for you to have the ammunition or were you paraphrasing what he said?

Hornady's corporate policy has absolutley nothing to do with criminal code.

I'm losing faith in Hornady more and more.

[Voodoo_Man]

This is not the first time I have heard of this.

Locally its a pain to source any type of HST ammo that says "LE" on it. I have had a few places ask me for LEO ID when I wanted to buy it. No issue since that is my duty ammo, but I am surprised why they would do this and to my best knowledge this cannot be law, but a company policy which they enforce...to a point.

In my opinion its all about liability. They do not want to their 75gr TAP ammo to be used in a crime where a LEO gets killed, or it zips through some sort of hard armor and all of a sudden there is a bill proposed to ban it.

[davidjinks]

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[C4IGrant]

The load he is referring to is a 5.56 load (product no. 8126N). Hornady will not generally sell this to the public because it is loaded to 5.56 specifications and they don't want the liability of morons blowing up their .223 crap guns with it.

When I bought mine from Hornady I had to sign a disclaimer.

That is my understanding and that's why you cannot find it.

Black Talon was never illegal and in fact the Winchester Ranger SXT line (IIRC) is the same or similar without the "evil" black coating. It was sensationalized by the media and Winchester pulled it due to PR concerns.

Right. 5.56 T2 TAP is NOT ILLEGAL, they (Hornady) doesn't want the mass public to get it for the simple reason that they are afraid people will stick it in a .223 chambered gun and blow it up.

While I fully understand their POV on this subject (and yes, there are countless morons that will do that above), most every manufacturer sell some time of 5.56 ammo so they should get over it.



C4

[C4IGrant]

No paraphrase...

First he said it was against policy for anyone to sell it and then he followed up with its illegal to have. His words.

I don't believe in any of this crap to tell you the truth.

What's makes this ammo any more special than say MK262 or BH 5.56 TSX?

So you didn't even have the "good stuff" and they told you that it was illegal?? :rolleyes:

When you talk to the guy at Hornady, advise him of the following:

1. When you sell your ammo to EVERY ammo distributor in the US, that means that EVERY gun dealer and their brother has access to it.
2. If TAP ammo is in fact restricted (by the factory), then the ammo distributors that they are selling it to are NOT enforcing these policies.
3. If they want to control who buys TAP ammo, they need to stop dumping ammo via distributors and control which dealers get it.



C4

[Belmont31R]

I rarely buy Hornady anymore. Their policies on "LE" ammo are retarded. At the police supply store here I can buy every other brand but Hornady red box stuff. Even 308 which will work in any modern 308 gun. Its not just them worrying about 5.56 pressure in 223. I can't buy anything from their LE line in the red boxes no matter what caliber.

[davidjinks]

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[davidjinks]

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[Belmont31R]

It wasn't even 5.56. I can almost...almost understand their stance.

But this is .223! It's SAAMI spec ammo!!!



I know thats why I said that. I can't even buy 308 which makes the excuse of them not selling 5.56 because people will shoot it in 223 chambers moot. Its a policy of theirs where they won't sell "LE" ammo...period. Regardless of caliber.

[TAZ]

I think Belmont and I shop at the same cop shop, and Hornady is/was the only ammo I have had a hard time getting out the door, especially the red box stuff. One of the guys who worked there explained that it was a pricing issue and not a civilian vs LEO thing. They were on contract to sell the ammo to LEO at those prices not to everybody. If that is the case, I can understand it to a degree.

As far as the return goes, I think that you're SOL if they choose to not replace it with TAP. In my not so lawyerly opinion they have to do something to address your issue. However, most warranty disclaimers are repair, replace with equivalent or refund at their digression. If they try to stick it to you then you have a case.

[Iraqgunz]

I apologize for the confusion here. I thought that the ammo in question was the actually 5.56 TAP T2 loading.

Now that you have clarified it, it's even more ridiculous as that ammo is readily available in several locations as far as I know.


I want to clarify a couple things.

This is not 5.56 TAP. This is .233 75 Gr. TAP. Hornady claims that they get 2609 FPS at the muzzle from a 16" barrel.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail40ec.html?id=130&sID=141&pID=1

Talking to the Hornady rep he stated that the exact velocity was 2765 FPS, giving a SD of 30 FPS throughout the different LOTS of ammo.

In an 18" barrel I was over a 100 FPS slower than what has been published. Almost 300 FPS slower in a 16" barrel.

If you go by the published data using an actual 16" rifle barrel, I was 150+ FPS slower in my 16" barrel but very close to the published data in my 18" barrel.

EDIT: I chronoed BH 75 Gr. .223 the same day. That averaged 2700 FPS from my Colts. SD was 18 FPS. From my MK12 I was getting an average of 2800 FPS with an SD of 21 FPS.

[Belmont31R]

I think Belmont and I shop at the same cop shop, and Hornady is/was the only ammo I have had a hard time getting out the door, especially the red box stuff. One of the guys who worked there explained that it was a pricing issue and not a civilian vs LEO thing. They were on contract to sell the ammo to LEO at those prices not to everybody. If that is the case, I can understand it to a degree.

As far as the return goes, I think that you're SOL if they choose to not replace it with TAP. In my not so lawyerly opinion they have to do something to address your issue. However, most warranty disclaimers are repair, replace with equivalent or refund at their digression. If they try to stick it to you then you have a case.



I buy a lot of ammo from GT Distributors in Austin, and the red box LE ammo is the only stuff they wont sell to me as a civilian. I can buy Federal, Speer, and a few others no problem.


Thats fine. If Hornady wants to make it so I can't buy 'LE' ammo then I just buy other brands and they lose the money. We have enough BS laws I don't need a private company further restricting me above and beyond the scope of law.


Especially after Jason Hornady accused me of having a flinch when his Super Performance 5.56 was shooting near 4MOA groups out of my guns and I was getting popped primers in 308 loadings. I can't even remember the last time I bought Hornady ammo or products since then.

[Iraqgunz]

So much for being restricted.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200rd-case-223-tap-75-grain-bthp-hornady-le-80265

http://www.surplusammo.com/223-75-grain-bthp-hornady-tap-law-enforcement-80265-20-rounds/

http://www.budspolicesupply.com/catalog/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/266/products_id/591

http://eastcoastgunsales.com/product.php?ID=377

http://www.sunflowerammo.com/Hornady-TAP-LE-223-Remington-75-gr-20-rd-Box-HOA80265.htm

http://www.lawmens.net/223-caliber.html

http://discountammosales.com/p-314-hornady-tap-223-remington-ammo-75-grain-jhp-box-of-20.aspx

[leadsender]

That is not correct. If you read the Hornady Test Report the 5.56 TAP T2 loading was tested with a 14.5", 16" and 20 inch barrels.

Pages 35-38-ish.

http://www.hornadyle.com/_img/hornady_tap_report.pdf

I was reading from the web site product list where it was a 24" barrel did not read any test reports

[davidjinks]

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[davidjinks]

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[Javelin]

OH SHIT! Hornady better call the cops. I have 5.56 TAP Ammo. :fie:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3134/blackriflepics651.jpg

[Iraqgunz]

Interesting. I didn't see where they tested the 5.56 TAP T2 in the 24" barrel. Especially since most varmint guns wouldn't be chambered in 5.56.


Both of you are correct.

They use a 24" test barrel as well as using a 14.5, 16 and 20" barrel bushmaster.

Bottom line: if a 16" barrel is shooting 2609 at muzzle but I'm only getting 2450 from a 16"...that's a problem.

[davidjinks]

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[BullittBoy]

The 5.56 stuff is listed on the box flap as tested with a 14.5" barrel.
I don't have it in front of me but I thought it was 2,600 fps, so I would guess that it should be over 2,700 from 16".
The .223 stuff I had shows 2,640 but I believe that was tested from a 20". They use different barrels, the 6.8 stuff I have is 16" barrel tested.
I think all of them should use 16" as this has become 90% of what is sold today.

[warpigM-4]

hell after that I would call and demand a refund or your ammo and let them know you will not be buying any of their products and you would pass the word along .

I have had several people argue with me about all the Winchester Ranger ammo I have for My 45 "you will get in trouble for using it ":rolleyes:

[kartoffel]

OH SHIT! Hornady better call the cops. I have 5.56 TAP Ammo. :fie:

Hey isn't that lower engraved "LE / Military Only" ? Don't worry, you were just playing it safe! Imagine what might have happened if you had tried mere consumer ammo in it....

[kaiservontexas]

Isn't the .223 75 grain TAP and Match identical? I know there is a thread on here where somebody pulled all the rounds and did comparisons, but I cannot find it.

I also know I have boxes of both, and the rounds look identical from what I remember. (I am too lazy to go dive into my ammo cans to find the TAP/Match one at the moment.)

[davidjinks]

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[davidjinks]

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[Docinak]

My buddy send a Bushnell scope back. He was informed it was a Knockoff and they would not send it back to him. He asked for the name of the manager for his police report. As they were basically stealing his scope. They offered him refirbed scope and a greatly discounted price.

Maybe you can try that.

[thopkins22]

My buddy send a Bushnell scope back. He was informed it was a Knockoff and they would not send it back to him. He asked for the name of the manager for his police report. As they were basically stealing his scope. They offered him refirbed scope and a greatly discounted price.

Maybe you can try that.

I think that this is an excellent idea. You acquired the ammunition legally, it wasn't stolen nor is it against the law to own. Their policies can apply to how their distributors/employees behave, but they cannot confiscate your property...that's theft.

I guarantee you that they don't want that headache.

[Snake Plissken]

You most definitely should call again to get information for a police report. It is theft. As said before, Hornady's internal policy is not equatable to criminal law. You likely just got someone that is misinformed and ignorant. Call again, ask for names before even beginning dialogue and write stuff down. They will need to replace the ammunition you sent in or deliver monetary compensation in full. If not you need to escalate to authorities. Just because someone is a manager it doesn't mean they know anything crucial. Often they're just going to parrot what little their superiors tell them.

[bp7178]

The Bushnell example doesn't really apply here. In that particular case, you may have a case in civil court, but at first glance, I doub't not returning a fake scope would rise to the level of being a criminal offense.

The company is more than within their rights to protect their intellectual property. I think they can very easily make a case that you can't be in lawful possession of a counterfeit scope.

As to the Hornady example, the manager said he was going to work with the OP. I think this is the case of an employee who really isn't a gun person mis-understanding the situation.

Unless there is some obsecure law within the jurisdiction that Hornady's factory resides, maybe to flash suppressed powder in ammunition etc, I can't imagine its actually illegal. People outside of any legal profession tend to grossly overuse the term illegal.

[davidjinks]

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[markm]

What kind of Chrono?

[kaiservontexas]

My ammo is lose in a can because I emptied my magazines one day. But I found a picture of the two 75 grain .223 Match and .223 TAP side by side.

Both have an open tip:
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h388/wynboniface/DSC01719.jpg

Headstamps are the same:
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h388/wynboniface/DSC01720.jpg

Sorry it took me a day to respond.

[davidjinks]

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[markm]

Ok... I was worried you were taking a Shooting Chrony and trying to get good rifle velocities or something.

[Snake Plissken]

Ok... I was worried you were taking a Shooting Chrony and trying to get good rifle velocities or something.

Contrary to you, Shooting Chrony chronographs work just fine for the vast majority of users. I've heard plenty of complaints about CED chronographs as well so they're not immune to the common errors plaguing chronographs.

[davidjinks]

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[Snake Plissken]

Sounds like you might have been a little short to deal with over the phone. Chill out. It doesn't make Hornady bad.

I think the problem is that you didn't do your homework on that ammo. According to this thread:
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506
The velocities you got seem to be relatively in line. The chronograph 15 feet away does not equate muzzle velocity. You must adjust for the distance using software such as Oehler's suite. Also, this ammo, as stated on the website, is tested in a 1:9" twist barrel and is SAAMI spec ammunition....meaning it was tested in a SAAMI spec 223 Remington chamber. In combination with small altitude and temperature differences...not to mention probable statistical error from your chronograph, it seems there is likely no problem with the ammunition.

He's not going to refund you money because you didn't buy it from them. The only sensible time for them to issue a refund is if you bought it from them and they had a refund policy. You're barking up the wrong tree. All they can do is send the ammo back to you. You criticized someone's product and told them you'd never buy their products again, did you expect a pat on the back and a congratulatory handshake from the owner himself?



So to "destroy" the ammunition after realizing the ammunition is doing exactly what it's supposed to do would be quite childish.



You're quite welcome to send me some of the ammo if you're just going to scrap it. Put it up on the EE.

[Heavy Metal]

Interesting. I didn't see where they tested the 5.56 TAP T2 in the 24" barrel. Especially since most varmint guns wouldn't be chambered in 5.56.

Or have a fast enough twist to stabilize a 75gr round.

[Heavy Metal]

When somebody tells me something obscure is illegal when I know it isn't, I ask them to quote me the relevant statute, rule or please STFU.

[Heavy Metal]

Sounds like you might have been a little short to deal with over the phone. Chill out. It doesn't make Hornady bad.

I think the problem is that you didn't do your homework on that ammo. According to this thread:
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=283506
The velocities you got seem to be relatively in line. The chronograph 15 feet away does not equate muzzle velocity. You must adjust for the distance using software such as Oehler's suite. Also, this ammo, as stated on the website, is tested in a 1:9" twist barrel and is SAAMI spec ammunition....meaning it was tested in a SAAMI spec 223 Remington chamber. In combination with small altitude and temperature differences...not to mention probable statistical error from your chronograph, it seems there is likely no problem with the ammunition.

He's not going to refund you money because you didn't buy it from them. The only sensible time for them to issue a refund is if you bought it from them and they had a refund policy. You're barking up the wrong tree. All they can do is send the ammo back to you. You criticized someone's product and told them you'd never buy their products again, did you expect a pat on the back and a congratulatory handshake from the owner himself?



So to "destroy" the ammunition after realizing the ammunition is doing exactly what it's supposed to do would be quite childish.



You're quite welcome to send me some of the ammo if you're just going to scrap it. Put it up on the EE.

No, the whole 'illegal' nonsense is pretty much what makes them asshats in all this. They have done all the beclowning to themselves.

Too boot, it's the SAMMI spec stuff that doesn't even violate their own tard policies.

[davidjinks]

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[davidjinks]

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[P2000]

I tried a box of that exact same ammo (223 75gr TAP) out of my SR-15. This is a totally unscientific statement, but it seemed to barely cycle. It shot softer than PMC bronze. I could feel the BCG moving slow. It was weird, I haven't bought more. I wish I could have chronographed it.

[Snake Plissken]

No, the whole 'illegal' nonsense is pretty much what makes them asshats in all this. They have done all the beclowning to themselves.

Too boot, it's the SAMMI spec stuff that doesn't even violate their own tard policies.
The word of a single person in a supposed managerial position does not represent an entire company.



davidjinks,

Everything so far has been based off of what your single chronograph has reported. Only now have you brought up the downrange precision of the load.

If you want to carry on with this anti-Hornady demeanor and have some factual basis for it, I highly suggest finding someone else locally with a different chronograph, use a control load, and document each rifle for chamber, barrel length, and muzzle device. Not to mention altitude and temperature. Other than that you have no case against them really. One random misinformed "manager" doesn't mean Hornady sucks. Your chronograph can easily be assumed to be inaccurate as there isn't a control load to establish that it is performing optimally.

[davidjinks]

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[Bimmer]

I asked if he was going to replace the 10 rounds they tested with TAP and he said he can't. He did say though he would give me a full box of replacement non-TAP ammo.

His answer was they, Hornady, doesn't know what pressure the other companies load their ammo at. They could be loading it to SAAMI max but Hornday is conservative.

This hardly seems unreasonable.

You're really torqued because they offered to replace 10 rounds of TAP with 20 rounds of something else?

And if they tested it, and it met their spec, then what did you expect them to do?

Or are you saying that you think they're lying to you, and they didn't really test it?

Or that they're lying to you about the results of their testing?



I told him I'll never use Hornady again.


Sounds like you might have been a little short to deal with over the phone.

Even from your own description of the conversation it sounds like you were a "little short."



The velocities you got seem to be relatively in line. The chronograph 15 feet away does not equate muzzle velocity.

What about this?

Like the guy from Hornady told you, how their ammo compares to brand X is irrelevant.

If it meets their spec at the muzzle, then it's not defective.



So to "destroy" the ammunition after realizing the ammunition is doing exactly what it's supposed to do would be quite childish...

Put it up on the EE.

Amen. If you're this dissatisfied with it, then just sell the ammo and get over it...

You'll take a small loss, but not enough to lose sleep over.

[Snake Plissken]

Thank you for posting the rest of the pertinent information. The Hornady ammunition is performing as it should. I don't think you're keeping it in mind that this is 223 SAAMI spec ammunition and not the 5.56 NATO pressure stuff. There is nothing wrong with it.

You have a good day, too. I suggest dropping the passive aggressive attitude you've developed --it's bad for your health.

[Submariner]

Molon had a good thread on 75 gr. Hornady ammo here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57872

[sheepdog1]

wow that was a barn burner! The majors test all ammo in very controlled conditions with rifles but more likely a pressure gun . All humidity, and temps are controlled. They will load for a pressure and a velocity. Your rifles might not like that ammo , or you got a bad lot . Im not defending anyone or thing. So conditions and barrel length , every inch less barrel you have equals about -30 to 50 FPS. every 15 or so degrees in temp + or - will effect MOA at range. the biggest difference between 223 and 556 is the chamber dimension the latter being bigger .SAMMI CUP is also different that PSI. ;) Nice thread Merry Christmas