View Full Version : No love for the 10mm?
I just purchased a KKM 10mm drop in barrel for my Glock 21 and a 20 lb recoil spring from Glockmeister. The 10mm doesn't even make the list for "Best Choices of Self Defense Ammo" and there is very little info I can find on Ballistic Gel tests for this caliber.
Can anyone recommend a full power 10mm load for hunting and one for SD? I know Doubletap has some but I have heard they fudge their numbers a bit and I haven't heard good or bad about their quality. It looks like the big ammo manufacturers only have a limited offering and most of them appear to be loaded at .40sw velocities.
How many agencies currently issue 10mm?
For duty/CCW, the Federal 10mm XM1003A 190 gr bonded JHP offers very good terminal performance as does the Federal 10mm LE10T1 180 gr JHP. Winchester made a 200 gr Talon load that worked well, but I have not seen it in a while.
Doc, I have an interest in keeping my Glock 20 hunting handgun in my car (hard mounted). I would stay with the 200-220gr hard cast bullets at 1200-1300 fps. I know that they will dramatically overpenetrate human bodies, but how would they do through intermediate barriers like other cars?
BullittBoy
12-17-11, 15:05
Ryan I have several choices that have worked well for me over the years:
1. Purely home defense I used 135 gr. Nosler or Sierra loaded HP ammo.
CorBon loads it, Double Tap loads it and now a new company "Underwood" loads it hot. This load is freaking phenominal in soft targets and is extrememly accurate, but it is not a "barrier" load, but great in home defense scenario.
2. Gold dot in 155,165,180 grain is a great barrier load. It is loaded by Georgia Arms in 155 @1,375fps and this load is awesome on about anything you could want to shoot it at. Double Tap used to load the 165 and 180, Buffalo Bore loads the 180.
3. Hunting load-175 gr. Silvertip, or 180-200 gr. Hornady XTP.
These loads have all been around for a long time and are accurate and expand well. Barnes makes a 125,140 and 155 "X" bullet loaded by Corbon and Double Tap.
For plinking I use 200 gr. Blazers and 180 grain FMJ from Georgia Arms.
The 10mm is a great "do it all" round and can be used for home defense, hunting and is a geat long range round that shoots very flat out to 100 yards. You can load it .40 S&W all the way to .41 Mag velocities and use 125-220 grain loads I have seen.
packinaglock
12-17-11, 17:18
I use DT 200g. hard cast "Bear Tooth" for hogs and they work great.
I reload 180gn gold dots at 1250fps with Longshot. Thats as much as anyone needs for a home defense round unless you live in brown bear country.
I've been contemplating a custom mold to cast my own 200gn hollow points but thats an expensive mold so its gonna be a while.
BuckskinJoe
12-18-11, 12:32
Ryan I have several choices that have worked well for me over the years:
1. Purely home defense I used 135 gr. Nosler or Sierra loaded HP ammo.
CorBon loads it, Double Tap loads it and now a new company "Underwood" loads it hot. This load is freaking phenominal in soft targets and is extrememly accurate, but it is not a "barrier" load, but great in home defense scenario.
2. Gold dot in 155,165,180 grain is a great barrier load. It is loaded by Georgia Arms in 155 @1,375fps and this load is awesome on about anything you could want to shoot it at. Double Tap used to load the 165 and 180, Buffalo Bore loads the 180.
3. Hunting load-175 gr. Silvertip, or 180-200 gr. Hornady XTP.
These loads have all been around for a long time and are accurate and expand well. Barnes makes a 125,140 and 155 "X" bullet loaded by Corbon and Double Tap.
For plinking I use 200 gr. Blazers and 180 grain FMJ from Georgia Arms.
The 10mm is a great "do it all" round and can be used for home defense, hunting and is a geat long range round that shoots very flat out to 100 yards. You can load it .40 S&W all the way to .41 Mag velocities and use 125-220 grain loads I have seen.
I have bolded statements that interest me.
How did you determine in #! above that the load(s) indentified is(are) great in home defense? You say it has worked well for you. How often do you deploy that load in defense of your home?
In #2 above, you state that 155, 165, and 180 grain Gold Dots are "great barrier loads." Would you be so kind as to share the testing done to determine that? Again, stating that it has worked well for you, perhaps, you can share what you did to come to that conclusion.
How many agencies currently issue 10mm?
For duty/CCW, the Federal 10mm XM1003A 190 gr bonded JHP offers very good terminal performance as does the Federal 10mm LE10T1 180 gr JHP. Winchester made a 200 gr Talon load that worked well, but I have not seen it in a while.
Doc, a google search doesn't turn up much on either of these two rounds. Do you know if Federal still produces them?
The 10mm really doesn't have much support from the mainstream manufacturers anymore. It's too weak to serve as a decent hunting or large predator defensive caliber, and it is a bit too heafty for a self defense caliber. I guess it can be considered a jack of all trades, but master of none. In a defensive situation against a determined attacker who may be incorporating some tactics other than walking straight at me like a dumb s**t, I'd rather use .40S&W with 180gr HSTs. In grizzly country I'd rather be using a .44magnum(or larger) with 300gr Hornady XTPs. So, from my end I don't really have a purpose for the 10mm.
The 10mm really doesn't have much support from the mainstream manufacturers anymore. It's too weak to serve as a decent hunting or large predator defensive caliber, and it is a bit too heafty for a self defense caliber. I guess it can be considered a jack of all trades, but master of none. In a defensive situation against a determined attacker who may be incorporating some tactics other than walking straight at me like a dumb s**t, I'd rather use .40S&W with 180gr HSTs. In grizzly country I'd rather be using a .44magnum(or larger) with 300gr Hornady XTPs. So, from my end I don't really have a purpose for the 10mm.
The drop-in barrel was $165 making it not too much for the price of admission. I go camping in cougar and bear country a few times a year and wanted a little more oomph to my Glock 21. I know there are some 44mag rounds that are well over 1000 ft/lbs but they have significant recoil and only hold 5 or 6 rounds. Comparing the Corbon loadings, 165 gr JHP offerings in both 10mm and 44mag are very close.
Looking at the Hornady 300 gr XTP data, keep in mind the data is for a 7.5 inch barrel. Hornady's 10mm seems to be loaded to .40sw velocities so it is not very impressive, but again, Doubletap and Buffalo Bore seem to give the 44mag Hornady XTP a run for the money and we are talking a 14 round mag.
Also, the Buffalo Bore 220 grain Hardcast moves out about 1200 fps. You don't think this would be a suitable hunting round? I failed to mention I have the 6 inch barrel.
Most any service caliber will work on cougers/mountain lions and do OK against most black bears. Obviously brown bears/grizzlies are an entirely different situation...
I'm a big fan of the Gold dot and Hunting Shack loads up the 10mm with the 180gr gold dot to a respectable 1150fps and has been very reliable for me.
IMO the 10mm really comes into it's own in the heavier 200gr loadings where it can penetrate really well. the WFN hardcast should provide for very good penetration of barriers like cars and Abrams tanks ;)
Some guys like the light fast projectiles but I dont see much advantage to them, however there is a new 135gr lead hollow point that does not fragment and is supposed to expand reliably made by Hunters Supply (http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/index.php?cPath=45&osCsid=c4852f75216e09330bcab79e856a4a3b). that would seem to answer some problems with the typical overdriven lightweights now and may provide the ability to get some TSC if driven fast enough.
I think it's really sad that such a popular caliber (it's the gun worlds dirty little secret. everyone seems to have one. when I sold ammo at gun shows i ALWAYS sold every single round of 10mm I could bring) gets ignored because no law enforcement or government uses it. Thats too bad because thousands of hikers, hunters and sportsmen use it every year and I think that they deserve to have some solid current testing of the most popular bullets like:
-180gr Gold dot
-200gr hard cast WFN
-200gr XTP
-155, 140 and 125gr barnes tac xp bullets (140 looks really promising)
- new 135gr hunters supply pentagon hollow point
-135gr Nosler
we could settle some arguments with some gel testing and maybe put some myths to rest.
frankly I think I know what to expect from most of them (having seen many hunting pictures of wounds and pass thrus), but the 140gr Barnes and the 135gr pentagon intrigue me. I'm curious if we will see decent penetration. I'm also curious just HOW DEEP the 200gr WFN will go.
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Doc, I have a question. what would be the difference terminally (ie stretch damage) between a 180gr gold dot driven at 1150 vs the same driven at 1300fps. is there an advantage to having the extra velocity? What about the 125gr barnes driven to 1500fps?
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For the most part the older factory "LE" loads by companies like winchester and federal are just not available for purchase for the regular guy if they are even still made. But there has been a decent amount of chronograph testing of available smaller company factory loads by enthusiasts (which is all we are left with when everyone else ignores the caliber). For the most part almost all manufacturers of "hot" 10mm overstate thier velocities. Some by as much as 200-300fps and buffalo bore is no exception check out the videos from this guy who's done a bunch of velocity testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGF4-wBXo_M&list=UUYfxghCmdFYV2S3Mro-Cb4g&index=8&feature=plcp
http://www.facebook.com/pages/10mm-ammo/188837037856507
In leiu of gel tests we have to go with hunting pictures (deer and hogs mostly). Almost across the board we see full penetration with the occasional double kill with one bullet. IN spite of claims that it's a nuclear weapon, the wounds all pretty much just look like a heavy, large caliber wound channel to me, with full penetration at ranges under 100 yards. The bullets from hunters seem to follow about what you'd expect:
- 135gr nosler fragments and does fine in deer unless it hits bone then underpenetrates
-180GDhp performs well, penetrating deer fully unless it hits bone then penetrates acceptably. nice wound channels with small entry and exit holes
-200XTP hp almost always passes thru everything with hogs and bone seeming to stop it occasionally. nice wound channels with small entry and exit holes
-200hard cast full penetration is the rule with projectiles almost never recovered and minimal wound channels
If I can get a copy of the spreadsheet I'll post it here.
BullittBoy
12-19-11, 09:23
How did you determine in #! above that the load(s) indentified is(are) great in home defense? You say it has worked well for you. How often do you deploy that load in defense of your home?
In #2 above, you state that 155, 165, and 180 grain Gold Dots are "great barrier loads." Would you be so kind as to share the testing done to determine that? Again, stating that it has worked well for you, perhaps, you can share what you did to come to that conclusion"
In response to #1 I have shot it (135 grain handloads, Cor-Bon, Triton (back when they were around) into wet news pack and phone books wet and dry and compared it to .357 Mag loads and 9mm,.40, and .45 loads and the 135 Nosler or Sierra had excellent expansion and fragmented extremely well. It is a regular soft point bullet so it will not be a great barrier round, but would be a good home defense load where you are concerned about over-penetration. I have shot it out of both my Colt and Kimber 5" Govt. models and it is very accurate as well. I would not want to be hit by it:D
#2 the Gold Dot is a bonded hollow point and does extremely well with barriers. I shot the 155 grain load from Georgia Arms into a 1970's Torino and it did extremely well in comparison to other 9mm and .40 I have tested. Glass penetration and door penetration is what I tested and it went through both extremely well, as did most 40 and 9mm bonded bullets. It is an extremely hot load, and is very accurate as well.
Bad Medicine
12-19-11, 10:39
The 10mm really doesn't have much support from the mainstream manufacturers anymore. It's too weak to serve as a decent hunting or large predator defensive caliber, and it is a bit too heafty for a self defense caliber. I guess it can be considered a jack of all trades, but master of none. In a defensive situation against a determined attacker who may be incorporating some tactics other than walking straight at me like a dumb s**t, I'd rather use .40S&W with 180gr HSTs. In grizzly country I'd rather be using a .44magnum(or larger) with 300gr Hornady XTPs. So, from my end I don't really have a purpose for the 10mm.
The only reason I don't own a 10mm is because the cost of ammo and the ability to find it. The 10mm is everything the .40 claims to be but isn't. It lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45. I wouldn't take a .40 if someone gave it to me, I would stick with 9mm or .45 due to availability of ammo and cost. But don't knock the 10mm it is an awesome round!
Bad Medicine--Your comments that .40, "lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45" is factually erroneous. You may be unaware of this, but our Nation's finest shooters are using .40's in combat with no complaints. In fact there was once a very experienced SOF NCO who posted at LF, a veritable tactical rock star who killed many of our Nation's foes, who had the distinction of having used a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP in combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he move to a unit that used the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:
"Some people want to make up for their training short falls with a gun that recoils less. OK, but at least call a spade a ****ing spade. Ask yourself which bullet you would rather get shot with. You can show up with ANY 9mm platform you want, and I will bring .40 and if you are not master class bad ass, I will burn you down on a shot timer with full power duty ammo. Recoil management is a nice skill to learn. Other wise I would have just taken up eye socket shooting with a .22 magnum. .40 costs an ass load, but if the ammo fairy allows you to train, then .40 should not hold you back on your split times or shot placement...Ballistic tests on 9mm vs .40? Sorry I just can't buy it. That .40 is smoking hot."
Bad Medicine
12-19-11, 11:41
Bad Medicine--Your comments that .40, "lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45" is factually erroneous. You may be unaware of this, but our Nation's finest shooters are using .40's in combat with no complaints. In fact there was once a very experienced SOF NCO who posted at LF, a veritable tactical rock star who killed many of our Nation's foes, who had the distinction of having used a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP in combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he move to a unit that used the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:
I understand where you are coming from Doc, but the numbers don't lie 10mm's penetration is awesome, same bullet as the .40 but the 10mm has more energy with the increased velocity. Also 9mm is cheaper, less recoil, more penetration, higher capacity magazines as well. But that is missing the point, for someone to say that a .40 will cover the short-comings of not using a 10mm is wrong.
before this turns silly and goes downhill, I'll post a list of loads tested for velocity by the gentleman I mentioned in my post above. as you can see there are a LOT of 10mm loads commercially available, but if one plans on using it then you can plan on buying thru the mail/internet rather than locally procuring.
http://uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1324321764&/10MM energy.pdf
In my opinion the 10mm shines in three areas
1-good terminal ballistics with good bullets
2- excellent trajectory for longer shots now feasible with the RDS trend
3-Penetration comparable to magnum calibers
"Also 9mm is cheaper, less recoil, more penetration, higher capacity magazines as well. "
I am not seeing a penetration advantage for 9mm in our testing or those by other organizations. Typically .40 penetrates better than 9 mm, particularly after many common intermediate barriers, especially auto windshields.
Bad Medicine
12-19-11, 13:38
I am not seeing a penetration advantage for 9mm in our testing or those by other organizations. Typically .40 penetrates better than 9 mm, particularly after many common intermediate barriers, especially auto windshields.
After reviewing the numbers I agree that the 9mm and the 40 are pretty evenly matched with tenths of an inch difference with clothing only. I don't know about windshields though and would appreciate some numbers so I can educate myself.
After reviewing the numbers I agree that the 9mm and the 40 are pretty evenly matched with tenths of an inch difference with clothing only. I don't know about windshields though and would appreciate some numbers so I can educate myself.
A good place to start: http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/Pages/ammunition-testing.aspx
Unfortunately, like many other .357sig and 10mm threads this one is going full retard in a hurry.
A lot of assumptions are being made with little data to back up claims. In "theory" a 10mm loaded with a .40S&W JHP bullet "should" exand to equal levels and penetrate more deeply. However, a JHP designed for .40S&W velocities can also over expand the JHP and either shear off the petals resulting in less momentum and thus....more shallow penetration. Or, the JHP can exand beyond it's designed limit causing the petals to flatten out against the bullet truck resulting in less expansion than the .40, or the bullet practically turns inside out diminishing the bullet's sectional density and thus, less penetration. The same thing was observed in previous testing when .38spl bullets were used in the .357magnum.
My guess as to why Dr. Roberts is not jumping on board these boutique ammo manufacturers is because they are using projectiles designed for the .40S&W or they making their own bullets which do not adhere to any testing standards. Less accountability by the manufacturer resulting in a questionable product for the consumer.
I didn't mean to start anything. I was really just wanted to buy some full power 10mm from a reputable manufacturer. It's a bummer there are such limited offerings.
In response to #1 I have shot it (135 grain handloads, Cor-Bon, Triton (back when they were around) into wet news pack and phone books wet and dry and compared it to .357 Mag loads and 9mm,.40, and .45 loads and the 135 Nosler or Sierra had excellent expansion and fragmented extremely well. It is a regular soft point bullet so it will not be a great barrier round, but would be a good home defense load where you are concerned about over-penetration. I have shot it out of both my Colt and Kimber 5" Govt. models and it is very accurate as well. I would not want to be hit by it:D
Fragmentation by a handgun round is never, ever a good thing. It is decidedly a negative. Reducing weight means reducing penetration. Penetration is vital to stopping a determined attacker.
#2 the Gold Dot is a bonded hollow point and does extremely well with barriers. I shot the 155 grain load from Georgia Arms into a 1970's Torino and it did extremely well in comparison to other 9mm and .40 I have tested. Glass penetration and door penetration is what I tested and it went through both extremely well, as did most 40 and 9mm bonded bullets. It is an extremely hot load, and is very accurate as well.
Just shooting into barriers doesnt tell you how well a bullet does or doesnt work. Seeing as the quality constructed JHPs of the 3 most common service pistol calibers work very well against common hard intermediate barriers, what is it that the 10mm does better to justify its additional cost, much less its existence?
You may not want to get shot by a 10mm, I dont want to get shot by anything.
I didn't mean to start anything. I was really just wanted to buy some full power 10mm from a reputable manufacturer. It's a bummer there are such limited offerings.
You're not starting anything. Really if you want to have decent loadings in a safer power range you should get into reloading. Once you branch out of the standard service calibers, it becomes harder to get decent(and safer) loadings.
There are a few loads here:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/10mm-hollow-point-ammo
As you can see, the latest and greated JHP designs are not being offered in the 10mm. I'd go with the Hornady 200gr XTP myself.
I didn't mean to start anything. I was really just wanted to buy some full power 10mm from a reputable manufacturer. It's a bummer there are such limited offerings.
did you look at the document I posted with the chrono testing? There are 52 commercially available loads listed on there.
Generalpie
12-19-11, 20:12
I won't specifically get into self defense scenarios with the XTP bullets because I don't have any factual data to back up any claims but the XTP has been fantastic is several calibers on medium game, specifically whitetail deer.
I especially like the 45 caliber version both in muzzleloaders with a sabot and a 45 long colt loaded heavy.
If the .40 works as well as the .357, .429 and .451 loadings it will be a good load all together for hunting medium game.
did you look at the document I posted with the chrono testing? There are 52 commercially available loads listed on there.
Yes I did. I was hoping that Winchester, Federal, Hornady or Speer would have a decent loading but it looks like even the Hornady offerings are more at .40sw velocities. It really looks like from your data, DoubleTap is the way to go. Anyone know what bullet their controlled expansion JHP uses?
The only other one is the Winchester Silvertip. Doc, I seem to remember some negative info on the silvertip. What is your impression of this bullet design?
Yes I did. I was hoping that Winchester, Federal, Hornady or Speer would have a decent loading but it looks like even the Hornady offerings are more at .40sw velocities. It really looks like from your data, DoubleTap is the way to go. Anyone know what bullet their controlled expansion JHP uses?
They used to load the gold dot in the 180 JHP load, but there is a good chance that it's an XTP. a call would solve teh mystery.
Also note that their velocity claims are far from accurate in most cases.
BullittBoy
12-20-11, 11:11
Fail safe-I can tell you have never fired a 10mm, that I am pretty positive of, or you do not own one.
The OP asked a straightforward question about 10mm's I am trying to help answer.
How can you say "fragmentation is bad" when I state the 135 load is a good low penetration home defense load-but yet a lot of folks use 5.56 hp's that fragment to some degree-like the 75 grain Hornady?
According to Double Tap it (135 gr.) goes 12" into ballistics gel, which is still pretty good.
I own and have owned .32, .380, 9mm Mak, 9mm,.40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45 and have shot ALL of them over the last 20 years into various "mediums" from water, wet newspack, phone books, car windshields, and car bodies of OLD SCHOOL cars from the 70's and early 80's. My pop has a bunch of old cars behind his house in the country.
Now I am not a "ballistician" nor do I shoot into ballistic gel but I have fired a lot of different hollow points and FMJ from all the above calibers into different mediums and animals and I can assure you that the 10mm is one of the best auto handgun calibers ever invented.
No it's not the "flavor of the month" but it is an extremely accurate round and it shoots very flat and has the widest bullet selection from 125-220 grains to be able to be used for any number of tasks you could ever ask a handgun caliber to perform.
It is great in the 1911 or Glock formats, and the older Smith 10 series are excellent if you can find one.
I know it is never going to be a "LE" round but to me it is a great round.
Fail safe-I can tell you have never fired a 10mm, that I am pretty positive of, or you do not own one.
The OP asked a straightforward question about 10mm's I am trying to help answer.
How can you say "fragmentation is bad" when I state the 135 load is a good low penetration home defense load-but yet a lot of folks use 5.56 hp's that fragment to some degree-like the 75 grain Hornady?
According to Double Tap it (135 gr.) goes 12" into ballistics gel, which is still pretty good.
I own and have owned .32, .380, 9mm Mak, 9mm,.40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45 and have shot ALL of them over the last 20 years into various "mediums" from water, wet newspack, phone books, car windshields, and car bodies of OLD SCHOOL cars from the 70's and early 80's. My pop has a bunch of old cars behind his house in the country.
Now I am not a "ballistician" nor do I shoot into ballistic gel but I have fired a lot of different hollow points and FMJ from all the above calibers into different mediums and animals and I can assure you that the 10mm is one of the best auto handgun calibers ever invented.
No it's not the "flavor of the month" but it is an extremely accurate round and it shoots very flat and has the widest bullet selection from 125-220 grains to be able to be used for any number of tasks you could ever ask a handgun caliber to perform.
It is great in the 1911 or Glock formats, and the older Smith 10 series are excellent if you can find one.
I know it is never going to be a "LE" round but to me it is a great round.
Fragmentation in a pistol round can't be compared to fragmentation in a rifle round like the 5.56. Velocities are very different.
As noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714), handgun bullet fragmentation is not a desirable characteristic.
As noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714), handgun bullet fragmentation is not a desirable characteristic.
Doc, what do you think of the Silvertip bullet design? Tempe PD was issuing these in .40 15 years ago so I am guessing it is old technology.
As noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887), bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the Silver Tip, old Black Talons, or civilian SXT's.
Doc,
I know that TSC generally starts to come into play in rifle bullets above 2000fps or so. there seems to be a weird area ruled by the heavy magnums in the 1200-1800fps where the usefulness of additional velocity is in question. The way I understand it now there is not much benefit terminally to driving a projectile into this velocity range except for additional penetration. So can you please tell us is there any advantage to additional velocity with pistol bullets of any caliber, in this velocity area.
As an example, does a pistol round like the 10mm 180 gold dot tend to cause a bigger or better wound channel at 1300fps than it does at 1150fps? What about a lighter projectile like the 155gr Barnes at 1500+?
At what point does the extra velocity start causing some other additional wounding than crush/cutting? (ie. 45 colt at 1000fps vs the 454 casull at 1800fps)?
thanks
Fail safe-I can tell you have never fired a 10mm, that I am pretty positive of, or you do not own one.
The OP asked a straightforward question about 10mm's I am trying to help answer.
I have owned several 10mms, the last one a Glock 20 setup as a BUG for feral hog hunting. I bought it because of a garage sale score netted me 27 boxes of 200gr Winchester Black Talons.
The OP did indeed ask for straight forward answers, but you are not giving them to him. You are offering your opinion, not fact.
How can you say "fragmentation is bad" when I state the 135 load is a good low penetration home defense load-but yet a lot of folks use 5.56 hp's that fragment to some degree-like the 75 grain Hornady?
According to Double Tap it (135 gr.) goes 12" into ballistics gel, which is still pretty good.
5.56x45 or .223Rem loads are also traveling twice as fast, enough to make that fragmentation worth while.
The 135gr Sierra JHP in .40Super(which makes 10mm look like a panty waste), doesnt do this, what makes you think a lowly 10mm will? Double Tap unsubstantiated claims said they penetrate 12 inches. Did you see the gelatin? Was it calibrated? Why didnt they do independent testing? Why do practically all of their so-called results end in a .0 or .5? There is a reason why there is a desire for independent testing.
I own and have owned .32, .380, 9mm Mak, 9mm,.40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45 and have shot ALL of them over the last 20 years into various "mediums" from water, wet newspack, phone books, car windshields, and car bodies of OLD SCHOOL cars from the 70's and early 80's. My pop has a bunch of old cars behind his house in the country.
Seriously, thats good for you, and and good for pops. The problem is you can shoot into things, but the results are what the bullet does after encountering those objects. The bullet going through isnt the only thing. Penetration, expansion, deflection are all very important.
Now I am not a "ballistician" nor do I shoot into ballistic gel but I have fired a lot of different hollow points and FMJ from all the above calibers into different mediums and animals and I can assure you that the 10mm is one of the best auto handgun calibers ever invented.
You have no scientific standards or backing to your tests. If I took some 180gr Speer Gold Dots (which are made for .40S&W velocities, Speer doesnt recommend them as a 10mm bullet) and you took some Double Tap with the same bullet, do you think your are going to have better or worse performance? Why?
No it's not the "flavor of the month" but it is an extremely accurate round and it shoots very flat and has the widest bullet selection from 125-220 grains to be able to be used for any number of tasks you could ever ask a handgun caliber to perform.
I never found it to be anymore or less accurate than any of the other common service or hunting rounds. That said, your comments about its bullet weight range is skewed. Those lighter weight bullets are for .40S&W (and they mostly suck for that caliber), but have been loaded into 10mm more as a "lookie-see what we done".
It is great in the 1911 or Glock formats, and the older Smith 10 series are excellent if you can find one.
I know it is never going to be a "LE" round but to me it is a great round.
There is a reason that the Glock 20 and 29 have been basically the only pistols to have lasted in 10mm. Kimber, Colt, STI, etc have all tried various iterations of the 1911 in 10mm, but none of them have stuck around. They come and they go. Sure Colt is making them again, but for how long. When I worked in a gunshop here in DFW, I never sold a 10mm 1911 that didnt come back with problems.
As for being an LE round. It was the caliber for a couple of large agencies. It isnt anymore. Hmmm....
Please dont take my comments as being anything other than being pleasant.
Ned Christiansen
12-20-11, 23:39
It just so happens I'm in the test firing stage on a custom Colt in 10mm. Today I shot it for the first time, I have the following loads (going from memory without all the boxes in front of me):
CorBon 150 JHP
Pow'r Ball 135
Hornady, three different loads, 200 grains on down
Speer Blazer, 200 TMJ
Double Tap using XTP's
Federal Hydra Shok 180
WW Silver Tip 175
A lead-bullet Federal load left over from the last 10mm project
Mag-Safes or Glasers from same
A truncated cone SP from same, mfgr to be determined / remembered
I did not shoot them all today, but those that I did reaffirmed my previous experience with this caliber. Some seldom-considered factors could have a huge effect on your performance-- the Pow'r Ball was considerably louder and flashier than the others. This is typical (but not without exceptions), in my limited experience, with lighter, faster loads in a given caliber. Recoil was a little hard to separate from all the noise but I don't think it was bad. Some of these loads were exceptionally stout in recoil for a 1911.
On the other hand, as before, the Federal Hydra-Shok was noticeably less noisy, flashless, and tame. Dunno how it works on bad guys, but just on the strength of shootability I'd probably prefer it.
In all honesty these factors weigh equally if not more so with me when I'm looking for serious ammo. There is some stuff out there that looks impressive on paper but must be pure hell to shoot at night, in a room, with no hearing protection.
I'll be doing more in the coming days, I might not be providing actual answers to anything but maybe a few bits of info that are not usually brought up when pure terminal ballistic effect is being tested.
This thread should be moved to Glock Talk and forgotten here.
Jack-O: Which has a bigger TC, a projectile fired at 6000 fps or one at 1500 fps?
Hmmm...can't answer that unless we know what the projectile does in tissue.
A very stable solid brass .224" 50 gr projectile that is fired at 6000 fps into soft tissue, but that remains point forward without any upset, yaw, or deformation is going to produce a minimal PC as well as TC. If a projectile fired at 1500 fps happens to be a .45 caliber 400 gr JSP that has an early upset and expands to nearly 1", both a very large PC and TC will result.
Velocity alone tells us very little, much like KE values.
If a JHP handgun bullet is driven faster than the designer intended, the bullet may fragment or the expanded edges may fold back along the projectile shank, decreasing the bullet frontal area thus reducing both PC and TC. As a result, driving .40 cal bullets intended for .40 S&W velocities to high 10 mm speeds can often be counter productive. On the other hand, if a projectile is kept within the velocity range it was designed for, terminal performance will typically be optimized.
Again, as noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714), what the projectile does in tissue is what matters, not velocity, KE, or other less than useful calculations. Likewise, as Ned states above, a load that has perhaps a bit slower velocity may be far more preferable than one that eeks out additional velocity at the cost of decreased reliability, inconsistent terminal performance, reduced accuracy, high pressures, large flash, and concussive blast.
Ned, what is your experience with the 1911 regarding durability with full power 10 mm loads? Can you recommend any tricks to improve the longevity of the pistol?
Jack-O: Which has a bigger TC, a projectile fired at 6000 fps or one at 1500 fps?
Hmmm...can't answer that unless we know what the projectile does in tissue.
A very stable solid brass .224" 50 gr projectile that is fired at 6000 fps into soft tissue, but that remains point forward without any upset, yaw, or deformation is going to produce a minimal PC as well as TC. If a projectile fired at 1500 fps happens to be a .45 caliber 400 gr JSP that has an early upset and expands to nearly 1", both a very large PC and TC will result.
Velocity alone tells us very little, much like KE values.
If a JHP handgun bullet is driven faster than the designer intended, the bullet may fragment or the expanded edges may fold back along the projectile shank, decreasing the bullet frontal area thus reducing both PC and TC. As a result, driving .40 cal bullets intended for .40 S&W velocities to high 10 mm speeds can often be counter productive. On the other hand, if a projectile is kept within the velocity range it was designed for, terminal performance will typically be optimized.
Again, as noted (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714), what the projectile does in tissue is what matters, not velocity, KE, or other less than useful calculations. Likewise, as Ned states above, a load that has perhaps a bit slower velocity may be far more preferable than one that eeks out additional velocity at the cost of decreased reliability, inconsistent terminal performance, reduced accuracy, high pressures, large flash, and concussive blast.
I understand the slower can be better thing. I actually favor it. I know that velocity often comes with a penalty and may not be worth it. I'm just trying to sort out a fuzzy area in my understanding of terminal ballistics. it just happens to fall in between standard pistol calibers and rifle calibers. call it Magnum pistol calibers.
So, in our case of the 45 colt vs the 454 casull, IF my projectile will perform and not fail , then the additional speed/expansion can cause additional wounding effects, namely larger TC (if I understand correctly).
Basically additional velocity in a pistol round is only useful terminally if the bullet can expand and handle the stresses?
Is it possible to see a TC large enough to cause splitting or create additional wound effect to PC in a pistol round like the 10mm if we can drive velocities into the 1200-1700fps range? If so, then at what expansion/velocity point would we start to see that (assuming a projectile can handle it)?
Is there some other useful wounding effect from TC other than splitting?
thank you for helping me with this. I was under the impression that TC splitting did not occur at all until we got over ~2000fps but now I'm understanding that some magnum revolver calibers are able to get it with good projectiles.
This thread should be moved to Glock Talk and forgotten here.
There are a LOT of people in my area (MT near Yellowstone) that carry a 10mm on a regular basis. It's a bit elitist and short sighted to imply that just because they are not in public service that they have no valid need for it or a discussion based in fact about calibers that perform beyond what is needed to stop people.
There are larger, faster, heavier, stronger things on this planet than humans that can kill you. If all of your "shooting" problems can be solved with a 5.56 and a 9mm then great! But I happen to live, work and play in an area where one encounters "problems" that those solutions are not adequate for. I like to educate myself for my own purposes and to assist my customers who may encounter similar problems. This is what I am trying to do here.
Hopefully this can be an informative thread for everyone and shed some light on a dark area ballistically
There are a LOT of people in my area (MT near Yellowstone) that carry a 10mm on a regular basis. It's a bit elitist and short sighted to imply that just because they are not in public service that they have no valid need for it or a discussion based in fact about calibers that perform beyond what is needed to stop people.
There are larger, faster, heavier, stronger things on this planet than humans that can kill you. If all of your "shooting" problems can be solved with a 5.56 and a 9mm then great! But I happen to live, work and play in an area where one encounters "problems" that those solutions are not adequate for. I like to educate myself for my own purposes and to assist my customers who may encounter similar problems. This is what I am trying to do here.
Hopefully this can be an informative thread for everyone and shed some light on a dark area ballistically
Bigger, heaver, faster, things need a bullet that will penetrate deep and go through heavy bone and the vital organs. That's what I look for in a rifle round for big bad animals. The last thing that I would consider would be the possibility of MAYBE causing TC wounding. I would look for the same in a pistol round. JMO
Bigger, heaver, faster, things need a bullet that will penetrate deep and go through heavy bone and the vital organs. That's what I look for in a rifle round for big bad animals. The last thing that I would consider would be the possibility of MAYBE causing TC wounding. I would look for the same in a pistol round. JMO
that is exactly what I seek. If I can switch from a magnum revolver to an auto pistol, save some weight, gain more rounds but still have some decent penetration and good wounding effect on target, then I'll do it.
BullittBoy
12-21-11, 19:21
OK for all you who feel the 1911 is not a 10mm platform, I live in the Houson area, I have a 1989 Colt Delta Elite with WELL over 6K rounds through it and my Kimber Eclipse with about 2K that I will happily let anyone shoot. They have never malfunctioned, the 10mm is a great "positive functioning" round and is superbly accurate. I have shot 5 shot freehand groups at 10-15 yards of less than .75". Anyone is welcome to come shoot with me.
I feel sorry for all the people who think that a 135 gr .40 hp going 1,400-1,600 fps is a weak round and they will gladly dismiss it. Or a 155 gr bonded .40 round going 1,375 fps. Or a 200 gr. hp from Hornady or Double Tap that goes through 18" of gel at 1,100-1200 fps for hunting and deep penetration.
Like I said I have shot all of them-if shooting in a real car and real glass is not a "barrier" test then please forgive me as I guess I will go hunting for some "gel" to make my life feel complete.
Last I checked bad guys aren't made of ballistic gel, but they do hide behind car glass and auto doors.
Yes I am the minority, I have 9mm, .40 and 10mm pistols I carry, all for different purposes-and I like shooting them all, but you cannot ever dismiss the 10mm as a "dinosaur" cartridge because cops don't carry it.
I guess I will mothball my 6.8 because 95% of cops have 5.56 so it MUST be a better cartridge.
Does anyone else have any actual experience hunting with the DT 200 gr gas checked hardcast bullet?
OK for all you who feel the 1911 is not a 10mm platform, I live in the Houson area, I have a 1989 Colt Delta Elite with WELL over 6K rounds through it and my Kimber Eclipse with about 2K that I will happily let anyone shoot. They have never malfunctioned, the 10mm is a great "positive functioning" round and is superbly accurate. I have shot 5 shot freehand groups at 10-15 yards of less than .75". Anyone is welcome to come shoot with me. OI
Do you ever wonder why Colt quit making Delta Elites, or why Kimber is on/off with their Eclipses? If the 1911 is such s great 10mm platform, why has virtually every .40S&W chambered offering been a dismal failure? Furthermore, of all the quslity and decent 1911 manufacturers, why are only 3 offering them in 10mm(including Colts 2012 resumption of the DE)?
I feel sorry for all the people who think that a 135 gr .40 hp going 1,400-1,600 fps is a weak round and they will gladly dismiss it. Or a 155 gr bonded .40 round going 1,375 fps. Or a 200 gr. hp from Hornady or Double Tap that goes through 18" of gel at 1,100-1200 fps for hunting and deep penetration.
Like I said I have shot all of them-if shooting in a real car and real glass is not a "barrier" test then please forgive me as I guess I will go hunting for some "gel" to make my life feel complete.
I feel sorry for you, the constant ignorance you're displaying here is quite telling. It seems you are confusing external ballistics with terminal ballistics. You have been told by the worlds leading expert on terminal ballistics and others why fragmentation in a pistol round is ALWAYS a bad thing. Furthermore its been explained to you why pushing a bullet intended for a certain velocity past that velocity that terminally the ballistcs are often poorer.
While the 200gr+ are true 10mm bullets, their is no independent testing, but that seems to be ok with you as long as it supports your position. I wonder why. But hey lets not forget, you shot car doors and windshields, but didnt bother telling us the penetration and expansion after the barrier. Nevermind the possible deflection.
Last I checked bad guys aren't made of ballistic gel, but they do hide behind car glass and auto doors.
This "argument" is as tired as you are. There is plenty of correlation between lab testing with ballistic gelatin and real world shootings. You'd know that if you bothered to do any reading and research.
Yes I am the minority, I have 9mm, .40 and 10mm pistols I carry, all for different purposes-and I like shooting them all, but you cannot ever dismiss the 10mm as a "dinosaur" cartridge because cops don't carry it.
I guess I will mothball my 6.8 because 95% of cops have 5.56 so it MUST be a better cartridge.
You are in the minority. Thats a clue. Nobody is saying it should be dismissed on a count of nobody in LE really using it (although that would be another clue), but I will ask what the cartridge truly offers that other service pistols offer?
On another forum the legendary Alaskan guide Phil Shoemaker was asked if the 200gr and heavier 10mm solids were adequate for defense against the big bears and he responded in the affirmative. That satisfies me. Certainly I'd prefer larger but I prefer autos to revolvers and I can't handle a .454 or larger so I will stick with 10mm for the woods and 9mm back home.
When I lived in Idaho I had a Glock 20 for back-country carry. It was a great platform and caliber for what I wanted it for, and used it for but in the end, when I left Idaho, I got rid of it. I don't reload and I found that the more I shot, and at the time I was beginning to shoot a lot, 10mm just wasn't an economical round for 3-400 round range sessions and I ended up moving to .40S&W as a compromise between cost and effectiveness after leaving. If I ever end up going back to Idaho, or start spending more time in Montana, Colorado, or Alaska where I grew up I wouldn't hesitate to get another G20.
BuckskinJoe
12-22-11, 04:40
This thread should be moved to Glock Talk and forgotten here.
Amen!
Don't try to argue with stupid. He'll just drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Ned Christiansen
12-22-11, 08:09
Yesterday I shot this 10 some more. No chrono and no gel, this is test firing and zeroing the sights only.
More 175 Silvertips
More Hydra Shoks (180). Again they were the mildest by far, and the most accurate. I always find this in 10mm and in general have found Federal ammo very accurate.
The previously mentioned SP load. Did not figure out who made it.
96 grain Mag Safe-- advertised at 1800 FPS
46 grain Mag Safe-- 2400 FPS. I did say 46 and I did say 2400 FPS. This is an empty jacket filled with epoxy. Both of these loads are very loud; both cycled the gun just fine and both showed case bulging. None of these other loads have shown any bulging, and some of them seem very hot. Recoil is light with these and honestly I'm surprised they work the gun, but then one shoots so few of them (very expensive) that one would not really be sure if they are reliable or not.
Hornady XTP loads: 155, 180, 200. Stout but not really pegging the ouch-o-meter.
Pow'r Ball, 135 grains. Loud.
Tiro Fijo, I don't have high-volume ownership experience with 10mm but they should last as long as .45 or not as long, depending (as with us) on the diet. Handloading it to a reasonable level for practice or competition, or using some of the milder factory loads, it should be a lifetime gun.
Ned,
of the factory loads I've shot and the boutique loads I've shot I have found that Hunting Shack is probably one of few serious, established manufacturers that are loading the 10mm to it's potential without pushing the envelope or making false claims (although Hornady does a great job of it as well). 1150fps from a 180gr gold dot does not sound like much on paper but it feels like a proper 10 yet is still controllable. It's well worth looking at for your testing. It's my personal go-to round for the 10mm.
best of all, HSM wants less than $.50 per round for the gold dot loaded to 10mm velocities.
Raven Armament
12-22-11, 11:09
I like the 10mm very much, carry one as my carry gun and hunt with it too. All my 10mms are 1911s. I recently sold one Kimber 10mm that had over 40,000 rounds of "full power" (200+ PF) shot through it. Nothing special, springs and FP stop are what matters.
I don't load these peeing match type loads. Just a 135gr @ 1450fps, 180gr @ 1200fps (1100fps for carry) and play with a 225gr SWC at 1050fps. Not sure how they would do against a human but the animals I've hunted with it got their lights shut out quickly.
Jack-O, that's pretty much my thoughts too. Other companies can try to turn the 10mm into a .44 Mag all they want. The people that shoot those loads should give them a serious try in stressed shooting like IDPA and really see how that plays out. I gave it a go when I got into the 10mm years ago and I found a 180gr around 1100-1175fps is plenty for most anything.
I read the thread a lot of bitching no answers HERE this may help you all. I loooked through my books HANDGUN DIGEST 3RD EDITION THE VERSATILE 10MM pg27 (handloaders can realize all the power the 10MM has to offer) and the 2004 HANDGUNS 16th Edition pg120 HUNTING WITH THE SELF-LOADING PISTOL by CHUCK TAYLOR what he said to point is that if factory ammo does not have it HANDLOAD the 10mm . The best bullets would come from HORNADY , BARNES and SPEER GOLD DOT.
I've had a couple of G20s over the years. Meant to use one for deer hunting and woods carry but they changed the rules here and 10mm doesn't meet legal requirements for a deer hunting round.
In watching and doing some actual testing I would use Cor Bon DPX, or the Silvertip if I had no DPX, as my carry load, with Hornady XTP as my deer hunting/carry load for traveling to my deer hunting spot.
Were I to live in places where big animals run around I'd have a solid round chosen as well, one that was reliable. I would prefer somthing is a WFN in hard cast flavor.
I note that some of the barn burners that I have shot in 10mm mimic the slide velocity issues that have plagued the G22 over the years.
I would also buy a a .40 barrel for my gun if I still had a G20
crazymoose
12-22-11, 14:00
The 10mm really doesn't have much support from the mainstream manufacturers anymore. It's too weak to serve as a decent hunting or large predator defensive caliber, and it is a bit too heafty for a self defense caliber. I guess it can be considered a jack of all trades, but master of none. In a defensive situation against a determined attacker who may be incorporating some tactics other than walking straight at me like a dumb s**t, I'd rather use .40S&W with 180gr HSTs. In grizzly country I'd rather be using a .44magnum(or larger) with 300gr Hornady XTPs. So, from my end I don't really have a purpose for the 10mm.
A lot of this is subjective, but for me, 10mm is more pleasant to shoot in many guns because it is usually chambered in heavier, wider framed guns than the .40, which serves to dampen the recoil. A Glock 20 or 29 is more manageable for me than a 22 or 27. Obviously much of this is subjective and there are variable such as hand size, but if you have big mitts, a gun with more real estate for you to hold is advantageous for recoil control. Honestly, I'd love a Glock chambered in 9mm with a frame the size of the original 20/21.
If we make the case, and we certainly do, that the .357sig with a 125gr Speer Gold Dot is not really any better than 124gr Speer Gold Dot in either standard or +P, why arent we doing the same for 10mm versus .40S&W? The .357sig is faster than the 9mm, like the 10mm is faster than the .40S&W, yet there are many of the same negatives placed on the .357sig can be placed on the 10mm. Speer themselves dont recommend bullets designed for a certain velocity range be used in a round that will exceed said range. One could declare its only a 200 fps difference (considering a 180gr bullet is used), but that argument could be flung back by again saying, its only 200 fps difference, whats the big deal? Furthermore it must be noted that Speer 155gr, 165gr, and 180gr Gold Dots are designed for .40S&W velocities.
Having owned a couple of 10mm handguns in my time, I will ask the question I asked years ago when I got rid of them, what does a 10mm really have to offer?
I'd like to see a 180gn Gold Dot fired into gel at 1200-1300fps.
Really, I really, really want to see that gel test. I feel that it would end all this BS taking place in this thread.
ETA: On second thought, a 200gn XTP max velocity test would be nice to see also.
iN MY OPINION...The 10mm really only has two things to offer the shooter
1- Penetration
2- Trajectory
Those are really only available in either FASTER or HEAVIER projectiles or BOTH.
when it comes to sectional density the 10 only beats out the standard auto pistol cartridges when it is loaded with the 200, 220 or 230gr projectiles. As a further drawback, field testing by some shooters and manufacturers has indicated that the 220/230gr hardcast projectiles do better in cut rifling or longer barrels if at all.
the 200XTP might be the load to beat in the 10mm. it seems to do really well in every hunting story or pic I've seen of it.
as to the 357 Sig, wasn't the whole purpose of that design to match the ballistics of the "legendary" 357 magnum 125gr JHP load? didnt it get pretty close to that?
If I had to pick a couple three loads to be tested from the 10mm I'd like to see:
140 barnes @1400
200XTP @1200
Alaskapopo
12-22-11, 23:15
I think the 10mm is at its best as a woods gun where it offers more power than typical service pistols without the weight and reduced capacity of big bore revolvers. Its a compromise that may work for some. I know a few Anchorage Police Officers who do carry them.
In my opinion its all a balance. I prefer the 9mm to the .40 for example. I am not arguing the 9mm does as much tissue destruction as the 40but I can shoot it faster. The trade off is lighter recoil faster repeat rounds on target or more power per round and fewer rounds on target. I think not enough people wrap their head around the simple fact if your in a shooting 1 or 2 shots is not going to finish the fight unless you hit the brain or spine. You need to put a lot of lead in the target as fast as you possibly can. I have never been in a gun fight. I have had to kill more than 5 black bear now at work and 2 were charging. I was using 12 gauge slugs and I am amazed at how long those critters which in most cases were smaller than me could take such punishment. The first one I shot was square in the chest at 7 yards it was up on its hind legs. I expected the mighty Breneke slug to put it down right there it didn't It took a few more follow up shots as I followed the bear through the woods. Now in reality it was only a matter of seconds but thats a long time in a fight. The most scary incident was when I got charged. It was night time and the bear was only 20 feet away when it started. I was not expecting it to charge as black bears usually run or avoid confrontation. I remember running the pump as fast as I could and the first two rounds did not hit well or missed. The 3rd and 4th hit it solid and made it turn from its charge to run past me at which point it was finished with a spine shot by a Trooper who was with me. (there was actually 1 other police officer and 2 troopers with me but only 2 of us go shots off because of how fast everything happened.)
I imagine people who are goal orientied are much the same way and will be able to take a lot of punishment before going down. Plan for that don't expect 1 or 2 shots to bring the threat down. Even in this day and age I still see a lot of trainers teaching double taps and even failure to stop drills as a double tap and one aimed shot to the head. In reality this is not nearly aggressive enough. Start at COM and work your way up to the head with recoil shooting as fast as you can accurately to hit the target.
Pat
Raven Armament
12-22-11, 23:32
iN MY OPINION...The 10mm really only has two things to offer the shooter
1- Penetration
2- Trajectory
Uses a popular bullet diameter.
when it comes to sectional density the 10 only beats out the standard auto pistol cartridges when it is loaded with the 200, 220 or 230gr projectiles.
I don't agree with that. 9mm 115gr XTP SD is .130 and the 10mm 155gr XTP SD is .138.
As a further drawback, field testing by some shooters and manufacturers has indicated that the 220/230gr hardcast projectiles do better in cut rifling or longer barrels if at all.
I've got a 6 inch longslide built on a Caspian frame/slide combo that has killed a 180lb dressed whitetail with one shot in the heart at 147y measured with a rangefinder. Show with my cast 225gr SWC that runs 1250fps in that gun.
the 200XTP might be the load to beat in the 10mm. it seems to do really well in every hunting story or pic I've seen of it.
It does well indeed and used to be my choice for hunting. I since chose to go with the 180gr so I can stock more of one weight than try to stock many different weights.
as to the 357 Sig, wasn't the whole purpose of that design to match the ballistics of the "legendary" 357 magnum 125gr JHP load? didnt it get pretty close to that?
If I had to pick a couple three loads to be tested from the 10mm I'd like to see:
140 barnes @1400
200XTP @1200
The 200gr XTP @ 1200fps is a wonderful load for hunting. For humans, no. If it will exit a broadside deer at close range I think it will also exit a human at self defense distances.
Alaskapopo
12-22-11, 23:39
Uses a popular bullet diameter.
I don't agree with that. 9mm 115gr XTP SD is .130 and the 10mm 155gr XTP SD is .138.
.
Who uses a 115 grain XTP in the 9mm. Not a great choice. I much prefer the 147 grain HST and I can live with the 124 to 127 grain offerings.
Pat
Alaskapopo
12-22-11, 23:41
On another forum the legendary Alaskan guide Phil Shoemaker was asked if the 200gr and heavier 10mm solids were adequate for defense against the big bears and he responded in the affirmative. That satisfies me. Certainly I'd prefer larger but I prefer autos to revolvers and I can't handle a .454 or larger so I will stick with 10mm for the woods and 9mm back home.
Not to disrespect Mr. Shoemaker but how many bears has he actually shot with a 10mm pistol to make that recomendation. Personally anything feels small when your looking at one of these critters up close. I have them walking through my back yard in the summer.
Pat
I can concur with Alaskapopo. We hear a lot of tales about one shot stops and the power and majesty of certain calibers. Below is a picture of a friend of mine's son. He shot the mountain lion square in the head with a .44mag Revolver loaded with an unknown weight hardcast bullet. The bullet entered just above his nose, bounced off his skull and traveled down his throat. The lion was only knocked out by the round so as Mark got to within a few feet of it, it actually came too and leaped towards him giving him quite the surprise. It ran more than 30 yards into some boulders and took him some time to locate, where it finally had expired from the wound.
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1387/lion00012.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/lion00012.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
lol...
+1 to alaskapopo and swatdude.
having seen how quickly bears move I have my doubts that I would be able to get off many shots at all. The efficacy of those rounds is in serious doubt from ANYTHING i can shoot with one hand.
If/when I see a bear or a moose my plan is to yank my heater immediately and have it out and ready to go. Then start reaching for the spray. it wont be one shot if the gun is the choice, there WILL be shooting until I feel like I have either unloaded my bowels completely or the animal has had a change of heart. :D
FAAAR better to be alert to ones surroundings and avoid confrontations entirely. an ounce of prevention and all that is my Plan A. Lord knows I dont want to be killing things that dont need to be either killed or eaten.
If I wanted to shoot JHP ammo, I would be thinking 9, 40 or 45. For me, someone living in Alaska, the interesting part of 10 mm is the ability to shoot a penetrating 200 grain load out of a lightweight, compact pistol like a Glock 29. Certainly no 12/45-70 or .44 magnum, but it gives you a chance at penetrating the skull of a bear.
The_War_Wagon
12-23-11, 08:10
I carried a Smith 1006 for 12 years as a regular carry piece. 9 years ago, I began standardizing on the 1911 platform in .45. 10mm was in full demise by then - the 1006 was dropped from mfg. I thought it prudent to go with a platform that seemed to be sticking around.
You're certainly not UNDER-prepared with 10mm, but it appears it will remain a niche cartridge for the time being. I don't envy you finding mags, parts, or commerical ammo. Asking why it's not on the 'best home defense' list TODAY though, is sorta like asking why no one drives a Grand Prix in NASCAR anymore, though. Not only are there no Grand Prix's - there's NO Pontiac to make them!
I'd feel solid about using a .41 Magnum, a .41AE, or a .44 Automag for home defense, too. Only problem is, all three owners' clubs could have a reunion in a phone booth - with room for cocktails. This is just what 10mm ownership is like in the 21st century. :(
Microalign
12-23-11, 12:17
I'm new to these forums, but have been studying terminal effects for many years.
I used to be into high velocity calibers like the .357sig and .40 Super. Like Bullitboy, I too did a lot of junkyard testing on my parent's ranch outside of Austin in the 1990s. Naturally, these higher velocity calibers would punch through various materials better than lower velocity calibers with larger caliber diameters. However, this really is a false interpretation of terminal effects. Just a quick read through Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, the concrete truth to handgun terminal effects is that once ideal penetration levels are achieved, the only way to improve terminal effects is to increase the hole size for larger wound volume. Through junkyard testing, one would assume that the .357sig is superior to the .45acp since it will punch through a thicker layer of sheet metal. Or, that the .380acp is a superior choice to 12 gauge 00-buck because the buckshot will not penetrate through old 16 gauge trashcans, but the .380 will.
Back when I owned the .40 Super I did my own test comparisons. Mostly I reloaded the Super with 200gr loads which I chronoed at around 1250-1300fps. In a cinderblock test, both the .40S&W in 180gr, and .40Super in 200gr would reliably punch through one layer of cinder block, but not punch through or crack the second layer. So, shooting at someone hiding behind a cinderblock wall will be no more effective with a .40S&W or .40Super. Another test I did was against a 14 gauge dumpster. With a direct shot and no deflection angle, the .40Super would punch through one layer of the dumpster while the .40S&W would not. At a 45 degree angle, both the .40Super and .40S&W deflected off the dumpster and would not penetrate at all. Either way, if someone was using a dumpster as cover neither caliber would get to them regardless of the shooting angle. Another test I did was the classic water jug test. I hope to get into 10% gel testing in the future. Virtually all standard JHP service calibers will punch through 3 water filled 1-gallon plastic jugs with the projectile resting in the 3rd jug. However, I've never been able to get the .380acp JHP to penetrated through more than two jugs, along with ultra light bullet weights in the other calibers. For instance, I've never been able to get the 9mm 115gr JHP or the .40S&W 135gr to penetrate through more than two jugs. The only load that I've been able to get to penetrate through 4 jugs has been the .45acp 230gr+P. The .40Super 200gr load however was able to penetrate into the 5th jug occasionally, but other times it would remain in the 4th jug. Not that scientific, but for a cheap SOB it gives me a relative estimate for penetration ability for various calibers and loads. Duncan MacPherson mentioned means of jug testing in his book Bullet Penetration.
All that being said, the 10mm does seem interesting particular the 200gr loading at 1000-1100fps which has a sectional density rating greater than the .357magnum 158gr bullet. However, from a practical standpoint why would this be more desireable than a .45acp+P 230gr load which will by all measurable data make a larger hole? For instance, the Federal Tactical Bonded 230gr+P load averages a penetration depth of 16" in bare gel and has similar penetration levels through commonly encountered barriers. Then of course, if you wanted an oddball caliber that was more powerful than the .45acp+P there is the .45 Super which can work in many .45acp platforms with only some slight modifications. I have seen no reliable testing data on the 10mm 200gr JHP.
The thought occurs to me that one would likely be better off in a defensive scenario, and as well off in a large animal scenario, if they went with a Glock 21 or 21SF and carried one of Doc's listed defensive loads for people while keeping some of this sort of stuff on stand-by for critters;
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
The thought occurs to me that one would likely be better off in a defensive scenario, and as well off in a large animal scenario, if they went with a Glock 21 or 21SF and carried one of Doc's listed defensive loads for people while keeping some of this sort of stuff on stand-by for critters;
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
BB lists the ACP +P hard cast load at 925 fps, where the 200 grain 10mm loads from BB, DT and Corbon are listed at 1,200 fps. Reference the large animal defense, while 10mm isn't my first choice, I would rather have 1,200 than 925 fps for trying to penetrate the skull.
On a related note, while I have shot enough of the DT 200 grain load thru my 20's and 29's to assure reliability, multiple Glock 20's of mine have choked on the BB and Corbon 200 grain penetrator loads.
Where I carry my G29, I am much more concerned about four legged threats.
GJM, could you define "choked" ?
Stoppages, through two 20SF's and one 20. A stoppage every other magazine or so through each different pistol, using different magazines and boxes of ammo (BB and Corbon 200 penetrator loads).
That is why I tried the DT, and no stoppages yet through about 500 rounds thru same pistols and magazines.
The thought occurs to me that one would likely be better off in a defensive scenario, and as well off in a large animal scenario, if they went with a Glock 21 or 21SF and carried one of Doc's listed defensive loads for people while keeping some of this sort of stuff on stand-by for critters;
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
I have that. This is what started the post. I picked up a drop in, 6-inch KKM "hunting" barrel in 10mm for my 21gen4.
I have that. This is what started the post. I picked up a drop in, 6-inch KKM "hunting" barrel in 10mm for my 21gen4.
I'm calling it!!
full circle in 71 posts!!
I'm still curious if the 10mm is capable of creating a TSC that causes damage or additional wounding effects other than permanent crush or frag.
Raven Armament
12-26-11, 22:19
Who uses a 115 grain XTP in the 9mm. Not a great choice. I much prefer the 147 grain HST and I can live with the 124 to 127 grain offerings.
Pat
I had the Hornady book within reach, so that's what I went with. The XTP is a good hunting bullet and I've never personally used the XTP in 9mm.
One thing about the 10mm is that you can easily swap a 40S&W barrel into it and use the modern generation of ammo available and still use 200gr bullets at 1300fps (not a typo). For me, the 10/40 with a 180gr bullet simply shoots straight. Good enough for me.
A couple more manufacturers to add to the list: EAA, Fusion Firearms (who makes more 10mm's than anything), Dan Wesson (returning from a slight 10mm absence), S&W (NightGuard and 610 which seem to come and go), Wilson and Springfield Armory (yes, they will make you one).
in addition to Glock, Kimber (it is a regular part of their line), and Colt (mine has also been flawless).
crazymoose
01-10-12, 19:57
Bad Medicine--Your comments that .40, "lacks the penetration of the 9mm and the power of a .45" is factually erroneous. You may be unaware of this, but our Nation's finest shooters are using .40's in combat with no complaints. In fact there was once a very experienced SOF NCO who posted at LF, a veritable tactical rock star who killed many of our Nation's foes, who had the distinction of having used a 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP in combat during various phases of his career. He was a huge fan of the inherent shootability of John Browing's .45 ACP creation, but acknowledged that the plastic commie G19 was easier to carry and quite reliable. Eventually he move to a unit that used the .40 and found it worked very well--lots of bullets that hit hard. He wrote:
"Some people want to make up for their training short falls with a gun that recoils less. OK, but at least call a spade a ****ing spade. Ask yourself which bullet you would rather get shot with. You can show up with ANY 9mm platform you want, and I will bring .40 and if you are not master class bad ass, I will burn you down on a shot timer with full power duty ammo. Recoil management is a nice skill to learn. Other wise I would have just taken up eye socket shooting with a .22 magnum. .40 costs an ass load, but if the ammo fairy allows you to train, then .40 should not hold you back on your split times or shot placement...Ballistic tests on 9mm vs .40? Sorry I just can't buy it. That .40 is smoking hot."
Doc, I agree with your assessment of the .40, precisely because of gel tests and barrier tests. However, the quote you posted seems to run contrary to everything that you and others have emphasized in the development of wound ballistics as a legitimate scientific endeavor. I'm not discounting the opinion of this distinguished solider, but, the bottom line is that well-qualified anecdotes are still anecdotes. There are many fine men (though, sadly, fewer by the day) who put a whole lot of Germans and Japanese in the ground with 1911's and Thompsons. Many of those men would tell you that the .45 ACP would spin a man around and drop him instantly.
To the OP's point, I think the 10mm is a cartridge which has not lived to its full potential because of its limited popularity. It's simple mechanics that more energy in a round means more work (penetration and expansion) can potentially be done. However, without rounds developed to perform at the greater velocity, one often runs into over-penetration or over-expansion/fragmentation. With the right development, there's no doubt that the 10mm could be a truly superior round in terms of terminal ballistics. Sadly, the round's popularity has apparently not justified the necessary R&D for the development of the right bullets. Thus, it's most useful now pushing non-expanding or moderately-expanding bullets to good levels of penetration, useful in shooting through barriers and hunting applications. With development, I think it could be a round with exceptional expansion and the desirable levels of penetration for anti-personnel use. The barrier is the fact that existing bullet technology has pushed the performance of the 9, 40, and 45 into the realm of "good enough."
How much more expansion would a 10mm get even if there were more bullets designed for the caliber? To make it expand more you need to make the bullet longer. Make the bullet longer and you reduce case capacity and hence velocity. You do that and you've got .45acp performance.
Energy is the potential to do more work, but its not penetration or expansion. Those are born of bullet design. Energy increases the TSC in service pistols, and as we know from the past, that just isnt a wounding factor.
Doc, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm half asleep.
Alaskapopo
01-11-12, 01:44
How much more expansion would a 10mm get even if there were more bullets designed for the caliber? To make it expand more you need to make the bullet longer. Make the bullet longer and you reduce case capacity and hence velocity. You do that and you've got .45acp performance.
Energy is the potential to do more work, but its not penetration or expansion. Those are born of bullet design. Energy increases the TSC in service pistols, and as we know from the past, that just isnt a wounding factor.
Doc, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm half asleep.
Momentium helps a lot with penetration and its why heavier bullets do better on windshields and penetrate better in most barriers. Momentium is simply mass times velocity. The 10mm has a large potential to penetrate well with the right bullet.
Pat
Pointshoot
01-11-12, 11:14
Well, I just couldn't resist the temptation of getting in on a 10mm thread :D I like the 10mm and have a 1911 so chambered, and also several G20sf pistols. I spend a lot of the time in the mountains hunting (usually with a bow) and particularly like to carry the 10mm Glock. For the most part, I use ammo from smaller specialty manufacturers and handloads. Favorite bullets used in these various loads include the 200gr XTP and 200gr hardcast and the 220gr hardcast load offered by Buffalo Bore. I carry the 10mm as potential defense against critters up to larger black bears. The odds of actually needing to use your pistol to defend against wild animals is very remote, but not unheard of. I myself and my hunting buddies have been stalked by bears while bowhunting in the backcountry. One was harrassed by a black bear while he was up in a treestand, and another buddy of mine ran into an angry black bear Momma with her cub, while hunting. (Thankfully, he was able to back out of there without incident or needing to hurt the bears.) I read an article in "Bear Hunting" magazine a few years back by an experienced hunting guide who had been on many bear hunts in the Lower 48 & in Alaska, and been called out by local authorities on many occasions to kill trouble bears. (I'm sorry, for the life of me I can't recall the man's name. He and others also reposted his article on numerous forums and I'm sure that anyone that wanted to put in the effort & time to do so, would eventually come across that article from among the numerous 'bear defense' threads out there.) This man related his experience with police officers who he guided that wanted to use their service semi-auto sidearms to hunt black bear . . in 45acp and 40s&w. This guide was less than impressed by the performance in hunting situations which often involved treed bears - conditions less demanding than found in defense. The guide went on to recommend at minimum a 44 mag or heavily loaded 45LC revolver for such work - - with heavily constructed hollow points such as the XTP for black bears and heavy hardcast for griz. (In regards to the latter, he pointed out that a rifle was actually much preferred, of course. He stated that being able to get a CNS hit on a griz was extremely 'iffy' at best.) When in areas where there exists the possibility of running into griz, I carry a revolver in 44mag, 45LC, or 454. - - - I have a S&W 329PD lishtweight 44 mag, but find that I carry the Glock 10mm more often now when in black bear country. Why ? After doing my personal research on the 200gr XTP and heavy hardcast 10mm loadings, I believe them adequate to the task. Suitably loaded 357mag loadings are adequate for black bear, so I'm confident this is true for the 10mm. (If handgun hunting black bear I would only use a 44mag or 45LC). I'm more concerned about stumbling across a hidden drug lab,etc and two legged predators, than bears - - - . So when in black bear country I've traded for higher round capacity and ease of shooting well quickly under high stress. I find it more reassuring to have 16 rounds of 10mm immediately on tap and another 15 rounds in a spare mag when up in the mountains outside of cell phone range. - - I use ammo loaded with 200gr XTP at around 1250fps and the 220gr Corbon hardcast at 1200. - - - - On a different note, its been shown by Doc that all the service rounds will do the job for personal defense against humans when loaded with the appropriate bullets. I find amusing the performance arguments of some folks against the 10mm because its not currently issued by police agencies. (An appeal to authority and/or to common practice.) This may be a practical or economic argument for such organizations or many individuals, but isn't a sound performance argument imo. Because of the lack of police use and the lack of availability, these practical & economic arguments may hold for individuals also. Those who are looking for a defensive pistol to be used primarily as defense against human predators in urban environments are well served by the standard chamberings. Many of us have read that the FBI got away from the 10mm because some agents, particularly those of smaller stature and women, found it hard to control. (And others have argued, including the late Col Jeff Cooper, that this was a training issue.) Just because police agencies dont use the 10mm doesnt mean its a poor performer. Likewise, its not the 'magic round' that some enthusiasts seem to believe. Like everything else, it has its place depending on the user and the conditions encountered.
Momentium helps a lot with penetration and its why heavier bullets do better on windshields and penetrate better in most barriers. Momentium is simply mass times velocity. The 10mm has a large potential to penetrate well with the right bullet.
Pat
I get that. That said 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp all have bullets made for their calibers that achieve what is considered "ideal" penetration. With that in mind, what more would 10mm offer? I suppose in hunting it could make a difference, but there are already 200gr purpose built 10mm bullets.
Alaskapopo
01-11-12, 17:07
I get that. That said 9mm, .40S&W, .45acp all have bullets made for their calibers that achieve what is considered "ideal" penetration. With that in mind, what more would 10mm offer? I suppose in hunting it could make a difference, but there are already 200gr purpose built 10mm bullets.
It would be a good rural law enforcement round where larger animals could be encourtered as well as greater range for shots. It could also be better at defeating barriers like car bodies and windshields. The trade off of course is increased recoil and weapon size.
Pat
The thing is would it defeat car bodies and windshields better than what is already out there? Like I said, increase the bullets weight means you increase length, which in turn means you decrease case capacity and thus velocity.
Need to dispatch a injured animal? Take a longarm. Have you not seen the documentary Me, Myself, and Irene? Need to make long distance shots? Take a longarm. Have you not seen Lethal Weapon?
:D
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 02:11
The thing is would it defeat car bodies and windshields better than what is already out there? Like I said, increase the bullets weight means you increase length, which in turn means you decrease case capacity and thus velocity.
Need to dispatch a injured animal? Take a longarm. Have you not seen the documentary Me, Myself, and Irene? Need to make long distance shots? Take a longarm. Have you not seen Lethal Weapon?
:D
Trust me I know that its best to use a long arm whenever possible and I have had to kill my share of bear. However there are times when your not expecting to see a large critter and there it is. I am just saying its a valid argument. A 180 grain 10mm load at 1100 fps would make a good general duty load. The 10mm is popular here in Alaska.
Pointshoot
01-12-12, 07:03
Trust me I know that its best to use a long arm whenever possible and I have had to kill my share of bear. However there are times when your not expecting to see a large critter and there it is. I am just saying its a valid argument. A 180 grain 10mm load at 1100 fps would make a good general duty load. The 10mm is popular here in Alaska.
I can't speak in detail to the requirements of police, since thats not my profession - - but I think you make some very good points. Jeff Cooper thought that a 200gr load at 1000fps would make a good general duty round. And, reality isn't the movies. Defensive - (not hunting) - sidearms are carried in order to have quick access to a weapon in an emergency. A suitable long arm is almost always preferred. But I doubt that cops will be going about their day constantly slinged up with rifles. Many of us who spend a lot of time in the great outdoors have found the 10mm (especially in the Glock) to be a good compromise in terms of having a reasonably compact, lightweight, controllable, and high capacity pistol with the power necessary to deal with many larger animal threats. Greater case capacity means the potential for greater velocity and penetration - important with tough, big boned animals. Buffalo Bore makes a 220gr hardcast load going 1200fps in 10mm, I've never found that in a 40. But given that most of the country lives in big cities and this is a specialized application, I doubt that the 10mm will ever become generally used by law enforcement now.
I love the 10mm - I have three Delta Elites, one of each size Glock, and a Smith.
It has become a hunting or self defense cartridge for someone who wants deeper penetration than 45. I only use it with 180 or 200 grain bullets, as if I wanted more shallow penetration, I would just use a 45.
Ned Christiansen
01-12-12, 09:19
Did somebody say Delta Elite?
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/11012012/17752527971.jpg
Check out the one I bought, literally 5 minutes ago:
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8942/65707303.jpg
Ned Christiansen
01-12-12, 10:22
I guess you ARE a 100 fan. More info on the FRAG'd one here--
http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9013
As far as the popularity argument goes I's relay my limited experience in selling ammo at Montana gunshows over the course of almost 2 years. almost without exception Ii would sell out of ever single box of 10mm I could bring, regardless of bullet choice (including some 125gr Frangibles).
If I were to rate the popularity of calibers in this area (based on qty of ammo sold) it would be
1-45acp hands down
2-9mm
3-40 but almost equal with the 9mm
4-10mm
5-45 colt and 44mag
6-357/38
note: I did not sell 380 but it would lie between the 9 and 40 for sure.
this is a subjective evaluation tho and based only on sales totals not number of buyers.
-----
We appear to have grasped that the 10 requires a bullet that can handle the extra velocity. From hunting pictures it appears that the XTP bullets in 180 and particularly 200gr are what we have right now for expanding bullets.
In wild places where one would consider a 308 duty rifle, the 10mm pistol would seem a natural fit.
I have long considered a long barreled 10mm Glock 20 fitted with a red dot sight and a 20 round extended mag to be a very capable back up weapon if one is carrying a sniper weapon or in a situation where a secondary capable of accurate hits out to 100 yards where weight and bulk is a concern. The faster 10mm provides less trajectory to account for yet still delivers enough potential energy on target to be effective terminally and penetrate light cover. that is something the standard pistol rounds cannot lay claim to.
The extended magazine allows for more shots with little change in size envelope. While this setup does not carry the punch or capacity of a carbine or SBR it does not carry the weight, bulk or additional suppport gear overhead either. It is still smaller than even a subgun type setup and has shorter lighter mags to boot giving up only capacity. Because of it's red dot it retains the accuracy potential of of at least an iron sighted subgun. If one desires the additional stability of a stock, then you could add one from Mako with an SBR stamp and carry that as a detatched accessory when not needed.
So in a situation where ones primary weapon is poorly suited to deal with close range threats or multiple threats, the RDS LS enhanced capacity 10mm would seem to provide some answers.
I submit the above for your review and consideration.
For a 1911, the 10mm only holds 8 rounds - same as 45 - so I don't see as much reason to want a 10mm 1911 (even though I keep on buying them). But in a Glock - you get an increase in capacity over 45 - so it starts to make sense again.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 12:55
For a 1911, the 10mm only holds 8 rounds - same as 45 - so I don't see as much reason to want a 10mm 1911 (even though I keep on buying them). But in a Glock - you get an increase in capacity over 45 - so it starts to make sense again.
For starters there are 9 round 10mm mags for the 1911 from Wilson. Second the 10mm is more powerful. If you want your pistol for protection against 2 legged threats then the 45 is a preferred choice heck I prefer the 9mm. But if you add animals in to the situation like bear then the 10mm is a much better choice than the 45 acp.
Pat
I've always been curious about the actual penetration of some loads, .40S&W 180gr FMJFP and the hotter 10mm loads made for penetration specifically.
I have carried a .40 loaded with FMJ in areas where we had black bear, and always thought a 10mm would be good to have.
I know that folks think the 10mm is "mo better", but has anyone actually tested that assumption outside of the FBI police duty loading type ammo?
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 14:26
I've always been curious about the actual penetration of some loads, .40S&W 180gr FMJFP and the hotter 10mm loads made for penetration specifically.
I have carried a .40 loaded with FMJ in areas where we had black bear, and always thought a 10mm would be good to have.
I know that folks think the 10mm is "mo better", but has anyone actually tested that assumption outside of the FBI police duty loading type ammo?
What type of tests would you like to see done? I got a Glock 20 Gen 4 for Christmas. (its not here yet but its coming) I would be happy to do some penetration tests.
Pat
Trust me I know that its best to use a long arm whenever possible and I have had to kill my share of bear. However there are times when your not expecting to see a large critter and there it is. I am just saying its a valid argument. A 180 grain 10mm load at 1100 fps would make a good general duty load. The 10mm is popular here in Alaska.
What is a 180gr 10mm traveling at 1,100fps going to do better than a 180gr .40S&W bullet traveling at 1,000fps?
I can't speak in detail to the requirements of police, since thats not my profession - - but I think you make some very good points. Jeff Cooper thought that a 200gr load at 1000fps would make a good general duty round.
That was back in the day. Seriously, there have been major advances in ammunition that put the old "200/1,000" thoughts to bed.
And, reality isn't the movies.
I was attempting to make this discussion a bit more lighthearted.
Defensive - (not hunting) - sidearms are carried in order to have quick access to a weapon in an emergency. A suitable long arm is almost always preferred. But I doubt that cops will be going about their day constantly slinged up with rifles.
However in the instances which Alaskapopo presented, those are times for a rifle or shotgun, not a handgun. Even in Dallas, TX, DPD will use longarms to put animals down.
Many of us who spend a lot of time in the great outdoors have found the 10mm (especially in the Glock) to be a good compromise in terms of having a reasonably compact, lightweight, controllable, and high capacity pistol with the power necessary to deal with many larger animal threats.
I have used 10mm in the past to take animals. I have also used .357sig and 9mm. With good bullets and shot placement, they all work.
Greater case capacity means the potential for greater velocity and penetration - important with tough, big boned animals. Buffalo Bore makes a 220gr hardcast load going 1200fps in 10mm, I've never found that in a 40.
While the 10mm has greater case capacity, as I've said before, the heavier you make the bullet, the less case capacity to take advantage of.
So you havent seen a 220gr Hardcast loaded at 1,200fps. Gotcha! That said, that bullet is still making a 10mm/.40 diameter hole. Indeed it might penetrate more, as I dont profess to know what a 180gr TCMJ will do in comparison.
However in the past when someone has asked why the military doesnt switch to FMJs in .357sig, Doc has asked what will a faster bullet with FMJs do that a 9mm wouldnt. I think you can draw the same comparison with 10mm and .40.
The faster 10mm provides less trajectory to account for yet still delivers enough potential energy on target to be effective terminally and penetrate light cover.that is something the standard pistol rounds cannot lay claim to.
Its not energy that makes a bullet terminally effective or not. Its the penetration and expansion of the bullet. That comes from design. Take a crappy bullet and drive it to higher velocities, its still a crappy bullet.
Standard pistol calibers will all penetrate light cover easily when you use a good bullet.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 16:51
Its not energy that makes a bullet terminally effective or not. Its the penetration and expansion of the bullet. That comes from design. Take a crappy bullet and drive it to higher velocities, its still a crappy bullet.
Standard pistol calibers will all penetrate light cover easily when you use a good bullet.
Bullet design is great but you can only do so much with it. For people a 180 grain JHP at 980 (typically not 1000) is just fine. But for critters that are made up of denser muscle tissue and bone more is better. Also that extra 100 fps gives you more range. A good bullet at a higher velocity (assuming its designed for that velocity) will do better than a slower one designed for a slower velocity. The trade off is recoil and shots on target in any given amount of time. But there is no disputing that there is greater tissue damage and the ability to punch through heavier bones.
Pat
Microalign
01-12-12, 17:19
What is a 180gr 10mm traveling at 1,100fps going to do better than a 180gr .40S&W bullet traveling at 1,000fps?
Looking at my Speer Reloading Manual #14, the general starting load for all 180gr projectiles out of the 10mm is around 1100fps. Maximum loads from this published data are close to 1300fps. In .40S&W the maximum load for 180gr is around 1000fps.
So I guess the question is whether that 300fps difference is worth it.
What type of tests would you like to see done? I got a Glock 20 Gen 4 for Christmas. (its not here yet but its coming) I would be happy to do some penetration tests.
Pat
What I'd really love to see are gel tests comparing the .40 180gr FMJFP against one of the specialty 10mm penetration loads to see how much extra you actually get, and against 9mm NATO as a base line.
As far is the extra penetration that the 10mm is presumed to give, and comparing that to .mil 9mm NATO vs .347Sig;
Against a human target such penetration would be wasted, but we are talking bears and such as well, in which case a bullet that goes four feet in tissue instead of only one or two would be the better choice.
Bullet design is great but you can only do so much with it. For people a 180 grain JHP at 980 (typically not 1000) is just fine. But for critters that are made up of denser muscle tissue and bone more is better. Also that extra 100 fps gives you more range. A good bullet at a higher velocity (assuming its designed for that velocity) will do better than a slower one designed for a slower velocity. The trade off is recoil and shots on target in any given amount of time. But there is no disputing that there is greater tissue damage and the ability to punch through heavier bones.
Pat
If you want to go with the .40S&W 180gr being 980 fps instead of 1,000fps fine. It still isnt going to make a lick of difference terminally when both are firing the same diameter and weight bullet.
I doubt an extra 100 fps gives the shooter any more range. I rang gongs on a steel silhouette at 100 meters with both 147gr TMJ and 115gr FMJ. I didnt change my POI between either round.
I've seen several very large feral hogs here in Texas taken with 9mm, .40, and .45acp from handguns. The thick cartilage, dense muscle, and heavy bones were no problem. Placement won the day.
What type of tests would you like to see done? I got a Glock 20 Gen 4 for Christmas. (its not here yet but its coming) I would be happy to do some penetration tests.
Pat
Are the Gen 4 20's out there yet? I recently handled a Gen 4 21, and it had the best trigger of any stock Glock I have handled.
Back on the caliber question, if I wanted to shoot JHP ammo, I would use a .40 with the HST or Ranger loads. For penetration, I prefer the 10mm, and use the 200 grain DT penetrator load, as it runs in my 10mm handguns.
Looking at my Speer Reloading Manual #14, the general starting load for all 180gr projectiles out of the 10mm is around 1100fps. Maximum loads from this published data are close to 1300fps. In .40S&W the maximum load for 180gr is around 1000fps.
So I guess the question is whether that 300fps difference is worth it.
I was going off of Alaskapopo's own words.
But ok, 300fps.
Keep in mind folks, a .38spec wadcutter will completely peentrate a 20 inch block of gelatin. Its only running 650 fps.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 18:26
If you want to go with the .40S&W 180gr being 980 fps instead of 1,000fps fine. It still isnt going to make a lick of difference terminally when both are firing the same diameter and weight bullet.
I doubt an extra 100 fps gives the shooter any more range. I rang gongs on a steel silhouette at 100 meters with both 147gr TMJ and 115gr FMJ. I didnt change my POI between either round.
I've seen several very large feral hogs here in Texas taken with 9mm, .40, and .45acp from handguns. The thick cartilage, dense muscle, and heavy bones were no problem. Placement won the day.
It gives you more power at range you can't argue that. It starts faster and its going to be traveling faster when it reaches 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards etc. I also agree that shot placement is key but having more power is also a good thing when you have to break through large bones and huge masses of muscle and fat. Bears up here are a bit bigger than the hogs you see in the second largest state in the USA. (Texas). Again I am not knocking any choice when it comes to calibers. But when you make that choice you need to look at an honest ledger sheet. Power does mean something.
You can load a 10mm hotter than I noted. But for general carry I personally felt a 180 grain bullet at 1100 fps would be a good balance of recoil to power. Just my opinion.
Mandatory Disclaimer I carry a Glock 17 at work. I feel its a great balance of power and recoil when people are the only threat to be considered.
Pat
When people start denying the basic laws of physics in an effort to prove the 10mm is a waste, then things are starting to leave reality.
facts:
-a bullet going 1200fps at the muzzle will have more energy at 100 yards than the same bullet going 980fps at the muzzle
-a bullet with more velocity and more energy at 100 yards will have the energy available to apply to expansion and penetration
-a poorly placed shot will have a poor effect on target.
-the 10mm is still a pistol round and subject to the rules as such.
-Until a better projectile is figured out, the 10mm probably wont create a much larger wound channel in PEOPLE than a 40, in spite of it's 200+ FPS advantage.
not facts:
- no-one needs a 10mm
- the 40 provides the same wounding potential as a 10mm (assuming bullet design can take advantage of extra energy potential)
- nobody uses the 10mm
- shooting anything with a 10mm will destroy it completely everytime.
I would point out that the very fact this thread has gone on vigorously for 6 pages and over 3 weeks is proof in itself that there is sufficient interest in the 10mm.
Pointshoot
01-12-12, 19:39
Jack-O
Isnt it interesting that those pointing out the benefits of the 10mm (not claiming that its some kind of 'magic', just that it has its applications) include those from Montana, Alaska, and hardcore wilderness outdoorsman types ? I suppose if youre from L.A. or NYC or some other urban area, and the meanest critter is a crack head home invader, you may not see any advantage. I get that. - - Properly constructed bullets at higher velocity (200gr XTP @ 1250fps and Buffalo Bore 220gr HC @ 1200fps) shoot flatter and penetrate deeper on big boned potentially dangerous animals - (despite what some may imagine, bears arent the same as people or piggies. And even some black bears can grow pretty large.) Pretty simple.
When people start denying the basic laws of physics in an effort to prove the 10mm is a waste, then things are starting to leave reality.
When people start talking physics, wounding factors in handgun rounds, but have yet to read the papers that are the foundation of terminal ballistics, well....see Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
facts:
-a bullet going 1200fps at the muzzle will have more energy at 100 yards than the same bullet going 980fps at the muzzleAnd that would mean something if muzzle energy was a factor in wounding.
-a bullet with more velocity and more energy at 100 yards will have the energy available to apply to expansion and penetrationAnd that would mean something if muzzle energy had anything to do with penetration and expansion
-a poorly placed shot will have a poor effect on target.Uh-huh!
-the 10mm is still a pistol round and subject to the rules as such.It is.
-Until a better projectile is figured out, the 10mm probably wont create a much larger wound channel in PEOPLE than a 40, in spite of it's 200+ FPS advantage.It will still produce a permanent crush cavity, the only wounding factor with handgun rounds, the size of a .40. You cant really make it bigger.
not facts:
- no-one needs a 10mmWho said that?
- the 40 provides the same wounding potential as a 10mm (assuming bullet design can take advantage of extra energy potential)I said that muzzle energy has nothing to do with it. Science supports that.
- nobody uses the 10mmWho said that?
- shooting anything with a 10mm will destroy it completely everytime.Who said that?
I would point out that the very fact this thread has gone on vigorously for 6 pages and over 3 weeks is proof in itself that there is sufficient interest in the 10mm.This thread is proof tht ATK, Winchester, Hornady should dump millions of dollars into a cartridge that may not do much of anything better? I think you are overestimating the value of this thread. ;^)
That said I have, and will continue to, to keep my responses cordial and professional.
Jack-O
Isnt it interesting that those pointing out the benefits of the 10mm (not claiming that its some kind of 'magic', just that it has its applications) include those from Montana, Alaska, and hardcore wilderness outdoorsman types ? I suppose if youre from L.A. or NYC or some other urban area, and the meanest critter is a crack head home invader, you may not see any advantage. I get that. - - Properly constructed bullets at higher velocity (200gr XTP @ 1250fps and Buffalo Bore 220gr HC @ 1200fps) shoot flatter and penetrate deeper on big boned potentially dangerous animals - (despite what some may imagine, bears arent the same as people or piggies. And even some black bears can grow pretty large.) Pretty simple.
Sigh.
Its interesting to me when people underestimate another person opinion based on what they think they know about another. Its also interesting when people put their own words in someone elses.
However do you have any data, any real world hard data to support your claims?
It gives you more power at range you can't argue that. It starts faster and its going to be traveling faster when it reaches 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards etc.
How does that translate to wounding factor? Velocity doesnt mean the hole will be bigger or deeper.
I also agree that shot placement is key but having more power is also a good thing when you have to break through large bones and huge masses of muscle and fat.
What are you equating to power the energy or penetration and expansion? The latter two have nothing with the first.
Bears up here are a bit bigger than the hogs you see in the second largest state in the USA. (Texas).
I know they arent, but they manage to maim and kill many people every year, and they have the adrenaline to make your day miserable. Plus their cartilage "shields, dense bones also wrapped in cartilage create quit a challenge.
Again I am not knocking any choice when it comes to calibers. But when you make that choice you need to look at an honest ledger sheet. Power does mean something.
I know you're not, which is why we can have an excellent discussion.
However you havent defined power, or what its a product.
You can load a 10mm hotter than I noted. But for general carry I personally felt a 180 grain bullet at 1100 fps would be a good balance of recoil to power. Just my opinion.
I know you can. That said the bullets in that weight arent designed for those higher velocities. Even if there was a bullet in that weight designed for higher velocity, I still dont see what its going to do better.
Mandatory Disclaimer I carry a Glock 17 at work. I feel its a great balance of power and recoil when people are the only threat to be considered.
Pat
I agree. That said I've also killed several nasty feral hogs with it. I know a gentleman personally that has used a supressed full auto 9mm AR to kill hogs in excess of 400lbs. All the while people told him the minimum should be a .357mag, yet those 147gr WWB TCMJ make nice clean holes through 30 inches of flesh, muscle, bone, cartilage, and organs of various densities
Pointshoot
01-12-12, 23:00
Fail-Safe - - I think you ask some good questions that help clarify thinking though.
On thinking further about my own decision process in choosing the 10mm for some outdoor applications you reminded me of a few things. The fellow who I mentioned that wrote the article on the use of handguns on bears went by the name of JJHACK. He had guided for hundreds of black bear & mountain lion hunts in WA state, guided on brown bear hunts in Alaska, and moved to Africa to guide on big game hunts. He had also been called out to put down many bears by local authorities. The data we have is limited. We cannot ethically create a controlled lab experient where we shoot a statistically valid quantity of wild bears to see what happens. We can only combine learning from the experiences of others, such as this professional & others- - and our own much more limited experience with the much smaller number of bears that we have dealt with on hunts. We go by our own observations of how they act when hit, and by examining the carcass to see what our bullet or arrow did, and try to extrapolate from that. The 'difference factor' with bears is that they have hide, fat, and bone (including their skulls) which are much more formidable than that of humans. They do not have minds capable of creating the words telling them theyre dead when theyve been fatally shot. They won't just fall down, like many people would. They will keep going unless there is a CNS hit or till they bleed out, and they can do a lot of damage till then. With this information and the uncertainty of the conditions we'll face, including the angle at which a shot may enter - - we decide to want to have as much going for us a possible given the limits as what we will practically carry in terms of weight and bulk in the backcountry given the limited possibility of ever needing to use the pistol for this purpose. (Most of the time, black bears head the other direction when they identify you as human.) We want to protect ourselves, and we owe the animal as quick and certain a death as possible. This latter factor is more important to me than the possibility of being 'overgunned', so I don't consider the 40 for this use. Another question to ask is 'Do you have data and evidence to support the contention that standard 40 loads would be just as effective as higher velocity/higher weight heavy 10mm loads in stopping large black bears?' The decision process may not have lab precision, but it is based on practical experience and reasoning. Sometimes thats the best we have.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 23:04
I am defining power as momentum(the amount of force or resistance required to bring a moving object to a rest) more than energy. (Power factor bullet weight times velocity) The 10mm has more raw power to drive the bullet deeper into a hard target than does the 40sw. Granted you need to have a bullet that is designed to handle that extra velocity to make it worth while. Right now there are almost no bullets designed with the 10mm in mind specifically. But there are a few good choices like the 200 grian Hornady XTP which has a good track record as a hunting bullet. Its almost impossible to drive it too fast. Basically I would want a bullet that can go deep and expand moderately. The more power you have the deeper you can push an expanded bullet.
The simple fact is that the study of terminal performance is more of an art than a science at this point. Meaning there is more we don't know than what we do.
pat
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 23:09
All the while people told him the minimum should be a .357mag, yet those 147gr WWB TCMJ make nice clean holes through 30 inches of flesh, muscle, bone, cartilage, and organs of various densities
If you chronoed those 147 grain loads out of his AR you would probably find they are going close to the same speed as a 158 grain 357 mag. At least I noticed a 200 to 300 fps gain in velocity with the loads I fired when I owned a RRA AR in 9mm.
Pat
Failsafe
Since I'm still having fun discussing this I'll address a point you seem to be missing. I understand what you are trying to argue against here, but I'm not making that argument. There seems to be a disconnect between what you are calling "muzzle energy" and what a bullet can do with it's "potential energy".
energy potential is the amount of force an object can potentially use to do work. With a bullet it is generally used to do at least 4 things
1-fly
2-expand
3-penetrate
4-create stretch cavity
since we are talking about a pistol round that is at best on the threshold of creating a TSC we will ignore the TSC and say that it is not a factor. I'm sure we all agree on that for now at least.
energy potential is only useful when it can be converted to some sort of wounding mechanism or flight. It seems like you want to ignore that fact. See, I'm not talking specifically about Torque NUMBERS, I'm talking about potentially useful forces that a bullet has. The LATTER have A LOT to do with how a bullet performs.
Plain old fashioned physics from WAAAY back in Newtons day says that an object in motion tends to stay in motion.
If we extrapolate this to our two identical bullets I spoke of above, we can be assured that a bullet that starts out faster will STILL BE FASTER when it reachs 100 yards.
Now why is that important? Well, it's important because it means it gets there faster thus dropping less, and retains enough momentum to BOTH expand to a decent diameter and penetrate to a decent depth. And as you know already, minimum depth is important to hit critical structures.
Now sure a 9mm can make a hit at 100 yards, no problem, but the energy potential it has when it gets there when combined with the design of the bullet will most likely give minimal expansion, thus giving us a smaller wound cavity.
See, this really is as simple as momentum and the ability of a bullet to do work (AKA "energy"). when we combine a bullet designed to handle the additional forces generated by the 10mm (perhaps it can be made to expand to a larger diameter by using the additional energy available) we get a round with the potential to do more damage where more damage can be had (probably not going to be useful in humans tho unless there is cover involved).
So, as we've been telling you. we dont really care about what it can do in shooting humans. We know it will make a 40 caliber hole and probably go all the way thru, just like it does on deer with boring regularity.
Where it becomes useful is when a person wants
-deeper penetration (particularly with the 200gr+ loads)
-flatter trajectory
-enhanced wounding at longer ranges when compared to standard pistol rounds at the SAME range(9,40,45)
It really is that simple and frankly I'm amazed that this is even in dispute here. The 10mm is to the 40, what the 357mag is to the 38 special
Failsafe
Since I'm still having fun discussing this I'll address a point you seem to be missing. I understand what you are trying to argue against here, but I'm not making that argument. There seems to be a disconnect between what you are calling "muzzle energy" and what a bullet can do with it's "potential energy".
Potential Energy is the amount of force an object can potentially use to do work. With a bullet it is generally used to do at least 4 things
1-fly
2-expand
3-penetrate
4-create stretch cavity
since we are talking about a pistol round that is at best on the threshold of creating a TSC we will ignore the TSC and say that it is not a factor. I'm sure we all agree on that for now at least.
potential energy is only useful when it can be converted to some sort of wounding mechanism or flight. It seems like you want to ignore that fact. See, I'm not talking specifically about Torque NUMBERS, I'm talking about potentially useful forces that a bullet has. The LATTER have A LOT to do with how a bullet performs.
Plain old fashioned physics from WAAAY back in Newtons day says that an object in motion tends to stay in motion.
If we extrapolate this to our two identical bullets I spoke of above, we can be assured that a bullet that starts out faster will STILL BE FASTER when it reachs 100 yards.
Now why is that important? Well, it's important because it means it gets there faster thus dropping less, and retains enough momentum to BOTH expand to a decent diameter and penetrate to a decent depth. And as you know already, minimum depth is important to hit critical structures.
Now sure a 9mm can make a hit at 100 yards, no problem, but the potential energy it has when it gets there when combined with the design of the bullet will most likely give minimal expansion, thus giving us a smaller wound cavity.
See, this really is as simple as momentum and the ability of a bullet to do work (AKA "energy"). when we combine a bullet designed to handle the additional forces generated by the 10mm (perhaps it can be made to expand to a larger diameter by using the additional energy available) we get a round with the potential to do more damage where more damage can be had (probably not going to be useful in humans tho unless there is cover involved).
So, as we've been telling you. we dont really care about what it can do in shooting humans. We know it will make a 40 caliber hole and probably go all the way thru, just like it does on deer with boring regularity.
Where it becomes useful is when a person wants
-deeper penetration (particularly with the 200gr+ loads)
-flatter trajectory
-enhanced wounding at longer ranges when compared to standard pistol rounds at the SAME range(9,40,45)
It really is that simple and frankly I'm amazed that this is even in dispute here. The 10mm is to the 40, what the 357mag is to the 38 special
Seriously?
I'm not suggesting we go out and burn books, but enough with this thread. Are we Glock Talk now?
Jack-O, if you go to GT, you will be the man! You will have a whole group of people that will join in and hug you until you can't breath.
You may also want to read THIS (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/u5l1b.cfm). That's as simple as it gets.
Alaskapopo
01-13-12, 04:55
Seriously?
I'm not suggesting we go out and burn books, but enough with this thread. Are we Glock Talk now?
Jack-O, if you go to GT, you will be the man! You will have a whole group of people that will join in and hug you until you can't breath.
.
Was that post really needed. I hope your other 11 posts in the last 2 years were more constructive.
Pat
BullittBoy
01-13-12, 09:31
I think the 10mm is great for several types of applications and several types of folks.
If you are a 1911 fan and have a .45 or several in this platform the 10mm is an excellent hunting backup or hiking pistol as in you are very familiar with the platform you just stepped up in range and power for defense against 4 legged threats. I take my Kimber with me when I go for long walks outdoors and hunting and it makes me warm and fuzzy:D
Also for home defense if you like the .45 the 10mm can be loaded with a myriad of rounds from 125-220+ bullets and actually it holds 9 rounds if you put it in a Wilson .45 mag, and yes I have tried it it works flawlessly.
If you are a Glock fan and have hands big enough the model 20 is an awesome weapon for outdoors duty and the 29 is an excellent concealed carry gun.
My Kimber shoots way flatter at 100 yards than any other 9mm, .40 or .45 and is superbly accurate. The 10mm is an inherantly accurate round compared to the .40 as a general rule, most people may have overlooked this.
I almost forgot the 1006,1076 from Smith, they are built like tanks and are very accurate as well-
Is it a duty round and weapon for the masses-no, but it definately has a place in handguns and is probably one of the most mal-aligned cartridges of all time.
And one last thing-every single person who has shot my 10mm likes it, and in fact I have even convinced a couple folks to get one. Most negativity comes from people who have not used it.
You may also want to read THIS (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/energy/u5l1b.cfm). That's as simple as it gets.
I wasnt trying to use a physics term per se. the correct physics term for the energy used by a moving bullet would be "kinetic energy" .
I was trying to make a point that a bullet can only do work if environmental, velocity, design, and target factors allow it. thus the use of the word "potentially"
A bullet can potentially do work if all the other factors allow it.
Pointshoot
01-13-12, 12:12
IMO there is value in the discussion we're having beyond trading opinions. This includes examining the basis for our judgements, and the costs of our decisions.
Is gel testing and barrier testing protocols which give us a way of precisely controlling conditions and offer repeatability always relevant ? What assumptions must be made when those models are constructed and tests conducted ? Do testing protocols which offer a good standard comparison when dealing with the vast majority of situations, (dealing with human beings) apply when dealing with animals with a different physiology and 'pyschology'? Why or why not ? When dealing with actually dangerous animals (such as the big bears, etc) stopping their ability to move by breaking down big bones - shoulder area - is recognized as desireable, - - is this experience relevant ? My point is that just because one can make precise measurements, doesn't mean the results are applicable to other circumstances. This is even more so, when it comes to trying to compare across other species such as bears and pigs, where we are dealing with two variable subjects. - - This should encourage us to understand, question, and refine as needed the assumptions in our models. This also gets to the question of the nature of empirical data "information gained by observation or experimentation". Note that personal observation is not excluded from this definition. We can't rely on a few campfire stories of a limited number of highly varied situations, of course. But, the more precise measurements done under controlled conditions to apply toward humans may not apply at all. - - Finally, we get to the costs involved. I suppose it might be possible to theoretically build a more controllable experimental testing procedure to determine this in regard to bears, but it seems hardly worth the effort & costs given the extremely limited and specialized nature of the application. As an individual who goes into the mountain backcountry, there is little extra cost to me if I'm actually 'overgunned' with the 10mm. (My own personal experiences with larger calibers/arrows & hunting bears contributes to my judgement that I am actually minimally equipped for the task.)
As an individual who goes into the mountain backcountry, there is little extra cost to me if I'm actually 'overgunned' with the 10mm. (My own personal experiences with larger calibers/arrows & hunting bears contributes to my judgement that I am actually minimally equipped for the task.)
Not picking on your post, because it makes sense, but I would argue any handgun, particularly a semi auto, is very much "under gunned" when it comes to stopping a bear. The argument for the 10mm is it is the best penetrating, available cartridge in a appropriate semi auto handgun. Given that I have access to 10mm penetrating ammo, and appropriate, reliable 10mm semi auto handguns, I would never choose a .40 over a 10mm if animals were my primary concern. That said, in a four inch revolver, for use around dangerous animals, 10mm seems silly, since a .44 magnum or .45 long colt with hard cast bullets can be launched from the same form factor revolver.
BIG bears need a 12 ga or .45-70, even .44 mag is wanting...small black bears, cougars, wolves and the like tend to go down with common service calibers...
Not picking on your post, because it makes sense, but I would argue any handgun, particularly a semi auto, is very much "under gunned" when it comes to stopping a bear.
BIG bears need a 12 ga or .45-70, even .44 mag is wanting...
Very much truth. One only needs to see a real bear or real moose in the wild to realize how small that bullet is compared to the animal. this is the reason I reach for the spray first. That is a mindset changer for the animal in most cases where a single bullet has the chance of making it much worse for me.
That said, the G20 with 15-20 rounds firing a burst of capable projectiles would seem to have a mindset changing effect all it's own, AND it's light and easy to carry. I have the option of a 454/45 if I need it, but my ability to deal with recoil of the 454 leaves a lot to be desired and 6 rounds go by very quickly. That is what I carry now tho, while waiting for my 10mm project to be completed.
Pointshoot
01-13-12, 16:18
Not picking on your post, because it makes sense, but I would argue any handgun, particularly a semi auto, is very much "under gunned" when it comes to stopping a bear. The argument for the 10mm is it is the best penetrating, available cartridge in a appropriate semi auto handgun. Given that I have access to 10mm penetrating ammo, and appropriate, reliable 10mm semi auto handguns, I would never choose a .40 over a 10mm if animals were my primary concern. That said, in a four inch revolver, for use around dangerous animals, 10mm seems silly, since a .44 magnum or .45 long colt with hard cast bullets can be launched from the same form factor revolver.
I agree with you and Doc's statement following your post above.
I use the 10mm in the Glock platform for the same reasons that you mention, - when I'm in black bear country. I use the Glock for the reasons I stated earlier regarding capacity and my ability to shoot it well - when in remote places outside of cell phone range. Its far more likely that there be problems with human predator types than bears. I've personally set the 10mm as my minimum for black bear defense, not hunting.- - - The very experienced guide that I also mentioned earlier, found service pistol rounds to be very unimpressive, even when used on smaller black bears. (There can be a great deal of variation in the size of black bears. In some areas they grow to the size approaching that of inland grizzlies, in other areas they go a bit over a couple hundred pounds or so.) Regarding the bear hunting guide experience, these were hunting situations where most of the bears eventually died, (a few were lost), but it took far more shots & time than the guide would have liked. When in griz country I carry revolvers chambered in 44mag, 45LC, or 454 for defense. I'll also likely have a rifle or shotgun with slugs around, but the wheel-gun is carried on my person all the time. (Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, - - but I'm not really interested in a 10mm revolver which has the same bulk/weight/round capacity as a 44mag or 45LC.) - - - Hunting situations are different than animal defense situations. Youre in cover, postitioned properly in regards to the wind, perhaps in an elevated tree blind. The animal is unaware of your presence and not excited before the shot. I've hunted in areas that didn't allow the use of dogs or placing of bait. You either stalk the bears in areas they frequent such as berry patches, or use a predator call simulating a wounded animal to attract them to come to the sound. I would not use any handgun for calling in bears, even smaller black bears. Sometimes you run across a black bear much bigger than average in the mountains. I don't want to deal with an excited bear coming in my direction, only armed with a handgun. - - As to big bears defense, handguns are likely of minimal value - though better than a rock in a last ditch effort I suppose. But this is just speculation on my part; I have never had to shoot a big bear in defense with a handgun, and hopefully never will have the opportunity to add to my store of personal empirical data when it comes to such events. Regards, - -
Fail-Safe - - I think you ask some good questions that help clarify thinking though.
This is how good discussions continue. However it was poor form to assume because I live in a major metropolitan area that I havent spent my fair share of time out in the bush/boondocks/prairie.
The data we have is limited.
We go by our own observations of how they act when hit, and by examining the carcass to see what our bullet or arrow did, and try to extrapolate from that.
I agree it is, and thus questions still need to be asked. For instance, how many bears have been shot with 10mm? With that answered, the next question is; with which rounds?
The 'difference factor' with bears is that they have hide, fat, and bone (including their skulls) which are much more formidable than that of humans. They do not have minds capable of creating the words telling them theyre dead when theyve been fatally shot. They won't just fall down, like many people would. They will keep going unless there is a CNS hit or till they bleed out, and they can do a lot of damage till then
So they really arent that much different than humans after all. The human skull is tough object to penetrate with a pistol round. While humans do have minds that are capable of telling themselves the fight is over, we've seen numerous accounts were natural and artificial chemicals in a human override that thought process.
With this information and the uncertainty of the conditions we'll face, including the angle at which a shot may enter - - we decide to want to have as much going for us a possible given the limits as what we will practically carry in terms of weight and bulk in the backcountry given the limited possibility of ever needing to use the pistol for this purpose. (Most of the time, black bears head the other direction when they identify you as human.) We want to protect ourselves, and we owe the animal as quick and certain a death as possible. This latter factor is more important to me than the possibility of being 'overgunned', so I don't consider the 40 for this use.
The thing I'm getting at is "more with less" or even "par with less". If the 10mm, even with a 180gr bullet designed for 1,100-1,300fps, a non expanding 220gr at 1,200fps, etc. still provides an almost identical wound channel as a .40 with similar bullets, then what good has it done? I will even concede taking a pistol shot at long ranges, but then ask; why use the pistol at long ranges when the handgun has already been declared a backup gun in this very thread?
So in keeping with the idea that the pistol is secondary, a .40S&W is going to have less recoil, flash, blast, etc than 10mm. Its in a smaller, lighter handgun. In a Glock, or God forbid an XD, there are magazines available with many more rounds available (I'm not a Glock guy, and I cant remember what that long G22 mag has in capacity, something like 22-25rds?). Ammo will be inherently lighter, but not by much. Ammo will be far cheaper, and not rely upon loaders of dubious quality (thats directed straight at Double Tap and Corbon). You can easily draw a comparison to the .357sig/9mm debate or even a .357mag/.38spec debate.
Another question to ask is 'Do you have data and evidence to support the contention that standard 40 loads would be just as effective as higher velocity/higher weight heavy 10mm loads in stopping large black bears?' The decision process may not have lab precision, but it is based on practical experience and reasoning. Sometimes thats the best we have.
With boutique companies like Double Tap who take a bullet designed for .40S&W velocities and drop it in a 10mm case, jack the velocity up you can have two things happen, neither of which are good. The first is that the bullets over expand, which will reduce penetration. The other is that the petal of the JHP fold backward and increase penetration. The first thing universally is bad news, no matter the intended target. The second option is bad news for a human, not for a game animal. The problem is you dont get to choose what will happen.
So instead of using a JHP, lets look at a non expanding projectile. Now no one to my knowledge has fired these two rounds in gel simply because gel costs money, takes skill to mix, and its not a priority. However, if you take a .40S&W with a 180gr TCMJ at close 1,000fps, and a 10mm 180gr Hunter at close to 1,300fps, once in flesh, the momentum is still the same. There might be slight differences as the Hunter round isnt going to have the same cutting surface the TCMJ will. You can even put the 200gr and 230gr 10mm gas checks against that lowly .40S&W TCMJ because that TCMJ will have a sharper shoulder than the lead of the gas checks which could lead to cutting versus pushing aside.
I am defining power as momentum(the amount of force or resistance required to bring a moving object to a rest) more than energy. (Power factor bullet weight times velocity) The 10mm has more raw power to drive the bullet deeper into a hard target than does the 40sw. Granted you need to have a bullet that is designed to handle that extra velocity to make it worth while. Right now there are almost no bullets designed with the 10mm in mind specifically. But there are a few good choices like the 200 grian Hornady XTP which has a good track record as a hunting bullet. Its almost impossible to drive it too fast. Basically I would want a bullet that can go deep and expand moderately. The more power you have the deeper you can push an expanded bullet.
The simple fact is that the study of terminal performance is more of an art than a science at this point. Meaning there is more we don't know than what we do.
pat
Agreed. Kinda.
My question still is that even with proper loads for 10mm, will it still be enough of an increase in performance to just its additional expense, shooting ability, the cost of a new firearm (should we be talking about a new to the caliber shooter),
I still believe it isnt speed that makes something penetrate deeply and expand as it is bullet design. I'm willing to bet that a slow bullet with a good JHP can penetrate deeply and still have good expansion.
If you chronoed those 147 grain loads out of his AR you would probably find they are going close to the same speed as a 158 grain 357 mag. At least I noticed a 200 to 300 fps gain in velocity with the loads I fired when I owned a RRA AR in 9mm.
Pat
Actually, there is really isnt much of gain at all, with or without the suppressor. Mostly less than 100fps when compared to his G17.
Then again its a truncated cone, in a metal jacket. That thing could be putt-putting along at 800fps and still bore a nice hole in a target. I hate to bring it up, but again, the .38spec TWCs at 650fps will completely perforate a full 20 inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin.
Failsafe
Since I'm still having fun discussing this I'll address a point you seem to be missing. I understand what you are trying to argue against here, but I'm not making that argument. There seems to be a disconnect between what you are calling "muzzle energy" and what a bullet can do with it's "potential energy".
energy potential is the amount of force an object can potentially use to do work. With a bullet it is generally used to do at least 4 things
1-fly
2-expand
3-penetrate
4-create stretch cavity
5-Create heat
I havent used the term muzzle energy. Thats all you. I have responded to your use of kinetic energy with what is essentially "so what" because science has completely dispelled kinetic energy as having anything to do terminal ballistics.
since we are talking about a pistol round that is at best on the threshold of creating a TSC we will ignore the TSC and say that it is not a factor. I'm sure we all agree on that for now at least.
Pistol rounds like 9mm, .38spec, .357mag/sig, .40, 10mm, .45acp, etc are not on the threshold of using TSC as a wounding factor. But, yeah.
energy potential is only useful when it can be converted to some sort of wounding mechanism or flight. It seems like you want to ignore that fact. See, I'm not talking specifically about Torque NUMBERS, I'm talking about potentially useful forces that a bullet has. The LATTER have A LOT to do with how a bullet performs.
No, they dont. While velocity gets the bullet where its going, it is bullet design and construction that do the work of penetration and expansion. Its why a lowly 148gr HBWC in .38spec at 660fps will penetrate more than a .45acp using a modern JHP. Its why in the 1950's, when the US Military noted that a 130gr .38spec FMJ out penetrated a 230gr .45acp FMJ.
If we extrapolate this to our two identical bullets I spoke of above, we can be assured that a bullet that starts out faster will STILL BE FASTER when it reachs 100 yards.
Now why is that important? Well, it's important because it means it gets there faster thus dropping less, and retains enough momentum to BOTH expand to a decent diameter and penetrate to a decent depth. And as you know already, minimum depth is important to hit critical structures.
Not necessarily. I dont think the one that leaves the barrel faster will get there faster or drop less. I also dont believe that the bullets will have enough of a terminal performance gap to justify the difference.
Now sure a 9mm can make a hit at 100 yards, no problem, but the energy potential it has when it gets there when combined with the design of the bullet will most likely give minimal expansion, thus giving us a smaller wound cavity.
Maybe. Maybe not. This again comes down to bullet design and construction. Having read the varied email by Paul Nowak at Winchester, the 147gr Ranger T is designed to still penetrate and expand at very low velocities. As low as 700fps.
See, this really is as simple as momentum and the ability of a bullet to do work (AKA "energy"). when we combine a bullet designed to handle the additional forces generated by the 10mm (perhaps it can be made to expand to a larger diameter by using the additional energy available) we get a round with the potential to do more damage where more damage can be had (probably not going to be useful in humans tho unless there is cover involved).
It wouldnt matter if the bullet was designed to handle the additional velocity, you still have to make due with the material that is there. It isnt going to get much, if any, bigger than what one at slower speed. If that bullet expands to .70, there is going to be an inherent issue with the drag of flesh.
So, as we've been telling you. we dont really care about what it can do in shooting humans. We know it will make a 40 caliber hole and probably go all the way thru, just like it does on deer with boring regularity.
Where it becomes useful is when a person wants
-deeper penetration (particularly with the 200gr+ loads)
-flatter trajectory
-enhanced wounding at longer ranges when compared to standard pistol rounds at the SAME range(9,40,45)
It really is that simple and frankly I'm amazed that this is even in dispute here. The 10mm is to the 40, what the 357mag is to the 38 special
The argument your making doesnt jive with physiccs. it seems you arent applying them correctly.
-Penetration is still on par, or at best VERY close to on par
-Flatter trajectory isnt as important because as you and others have said, this is a backup gun while hunting.
-Enhanced wounding at longer ranges is moot if this is a BUG for hunting, again, which it has been stated over and over that that is what its for. Even if its used as primary, it still wont offer "enhanced wounding" capability over a .40S&W at longer ranges. There's no proof.
Gotta love this thread. Nobody is really getting too far off tangent.
Now, this thread is really cutting into my Pac-Man time, gots to go!
Failsafe,
thank you so much for clarifying your position and views on this matter. I understand where you are coming from and cannot argue with your logic.
Have a GREAT day!! :)
jack
Alaskapopo
01-14-12, 03:40
Actually, there is really isnt much of gain at all, with or without the suppressor. Mostly less than 100fps when compared to his G17.
Then again its a truncated cone, in a metal jacket. That thing could be putt-putting along at 800fps and still bore a nice hole in a target. I hate to bring it up, but again, the .38spec TWCs at 650fps will completely perforate a full 20 inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin.
That has not been my experience. Not sure of your friends barrel length but I got a 200 to a 300 fps gain in my 16 inch 9mm RRA over my Glock 17. As for the comment about ballistic gelatin it has its limits its supposed to simulate swine muscle tissue nothing more. The human body and critters bodies are not made of pure muscle. They have bone, fat, air, etcs. There are also cases in actual shootings where .38 RNL has not penetrated suspects skulls. Momentium and velocity does mean something if it did not big game hunters could simply use Air guns in big bores vs calibers like the .458 Winchester Mag. I can slowly push my finger through a gelatine block.
Pat
Alaskapopo
01-14-12, 03:42
Agreed. Kinda.
My question still is that even with proper loads for 10mm, will it still be enough of an increase in performance to just its additional expense, shooting ability, the cost of a new firearm (should we be talking about a new to the caliber shooter),
I still believe it isnt speed that makes something penetrate deeply and expand as it is bullet design. I'm willing to bet that a slow bullet with a good JHP can penetrate deeply and still have good expansion.
That question can only be answered by the shooter. But given the choice in my area I would much rather go walking around in my back yard where brown bears routinely also walk through, with a 10mm vs a 40. I would rather have a long gun over either. But bigger and faster is better when your dealing with big and fast threats.
Pat
Pointshoot
01-14-12, 09:02
Fail Safe - - thank you for outlining your opinion in detail. I've stated my experience & views on the subject.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Regards, - -
Microalign
01-14-12, 12:29
As for the comment about ballistic gelatin it has its limits its supposed to simulate swine muscle tissue nothing more. The human body and critters bodies are not made of pure muscle. They have bone, fat, air, etcs. There are also cases in actual shootings where .38 RNL has not penetrated suspects skulls. Momentium and velocity does mean something if it did not big game hunters could simply use Air guns in big bores vs calibers like the .458 Winchester Mag. I can slowly push my finger through a gelatine block.
Pat
This has also been my experience with shooting larger game. Shoot enough white tail and mule deer and you end up with enough skulls to do some target practice with. Without a doubt, higher velocity bullets do much better at punching through a skull than heavier, slower velocity bullets. Especially when there is a steeper deflection angle. Whether you want to call it impact velocity, momentum,.....what ever. Sometimes we just don't have the formula to attach to a field observation. Adding another 300fps to a .40S&W via the 10mm auto will help it to more reliably tackle these hardened barriers and steep deflection angles.
Also, from all the reading that I have done on the subject, the ballistic gel test was never meant to be a measure of a bullet's effect on the human body. It was meant to simulate the hydraulic and retardant forces of tissue in order to test the expansion and penetration properties of a bullet. Once a particular caliber and load was determined to have good expansion and penetration properties in actual OISs, that load was testing in gel and its performance measured. Fackler and the FBI guys also did quite a bit of dead swine testing to refine the 10% gel solution standard. Since this particular load seemed to be ideal in OISs, how it performed in ballistic gel becomes a standard by which all other calibers and loads are measured. Naturally, there are a whole host of anatomical structures that the 10% ballistic gel test does not address, particularly in animals that are not of the two-legged variety.
Ned Christiansen
01-14-12, 12:47
For what it's worth, if anything (and probably nothing)-- I used to have a metal tub, made from a 250 gallon oil tank. I just torch-cut one end off of it, making an oblong tub 2' deep, 42" long. The old filler hole was about halfway up that 2'. This became my "ballistic comparitor" if you will.
I would put a paper cup in the filler hole to block it, and fill the tub. then you could shoot through the cup and into the water. Set the gun down, rush up and put a new paper cup in place, and check the results. I had painted a scale on the bottom so I could note how far different bullets and calibers went.
I shot many different pistol-caliber loads into it.... .45's, 9's, even .454 Casull (wear a raincoat). One gave me quite a surprise when it went all 42 inches and dented the far side-- 10mm truncated cone FMJ.
So here is the scenario -- you are out hiking today, unfortunately separated from your 870/Guide Gun, and you encounter a grizzly bear. The bear charges, and by the time you have fired a warning shot trying to turn the bear, and determined it is not a bluff charge, the bear is inside 20 yards closing fast. You will have one or at most two shots to penetrate the upper CNS encased in the skull, and stop the attack. Your choices are, unfortunately, a .40 S&W, 9mm or .45 acp with any load available or a 10mm with a 200 grain penetrating bullet at 1,200 fps. Is there any informed person that would not choose the 10mm?
Doubt any of them would work in that scenario absent a great deal of luck...
In such a situation, being lucky may be better than smart, especially since getting caught with a 10mm isn't especially smart. That said, I am curious why a 200 grain penetrator load at 1,200 would necessarily be worse than, for example, the Garrett Defender load of 300 something at 1,020 out of a .44 magnum, or the Federal Cast Core of 300 grains at 1,200, if the requirement is to penetrate the skull and reach the CNS?
Alaskapopo
01-14-12, 14:42
So here is the scenario -- you are out hiking today, unfortunately separated from your 870/Guide Gun, and you encounter a grizzly bear. The bear charges, and by the time you have fired a warning shot trying to turn the bear, and determined it is not a bluff charge, the bear is inside 20 yards closing fast. You will have one or at most two shots to penetrate the upper CNS encased in the skull, and stop the attack. Your choices are, unfortunately, a .40 S&W, 9mm or .45 acp with any load available or a 10mm with a 200 grain penetrating bullet at 1,200 fps. Is there any informed person that would not choose the 10mm?
You don't have time for warning shots. You take every second God gave you to hit the damn bear. The bear that charged me (last year) moved so damn fast. I could not believe how fast they can move until I saw it. I was at the ready with my shotgun loaded with slugs too. If I had to use my pistol from the holster I doubt I would be here today. I also never throught I could unload an 870 pump so fast.
The argument for handguns for bear defense is that you may be able to shoot the bear as its mauling you if your lucky enough to have your gun hand free. Hopefully that will discourage it enough to leave you alone. A better scenario is you get lucky on the charge and the bullet hits the right spot and goes deep enough to hit the CNS. Don't bother with warning shots in a charge its suicide.
Pat
I choose bear spray and bells tied to my boots over 10mm.
I see the irrational fear of bears has now carried over from GT too.
I bet most of the people that make up these bear scenarios have only seen a bear on television.
Where do we go if we can't visit this forum to escape "this vs. that" and make-belive physics?
Alaskapopo
01-14-12, 14:48
I choose bear spray and bells tied to my boots over 10mm.
I see the irrational fear of bears has now carried over from GT too.
I bet most of the people that make up these bear scenarios have only seen a bear on television.
Where do we go if we can't visit this forum to escape "this vs. that" and make-belive physics?
Irrational! Excuse me but you have no clue!
Frankly bear spray is not worth trusting your life too. Its better than nothing but there are plenty of dead people who relied on bear spray. About the only reliable way to stop a bear is a big bore rifle. Also don't preach to us who have been there!
Pat
Irrational! Excuse me but you have no clue!
Frankly bear spray is not worth trusting your life too. Its better than nothing but there are plenty of dead people who relied on bear spray. About the only reliable way to stop a bear is a big bore rifle. Also don't preach to us who have been there!
Pat
Was I talking to you?
Real productive thread here...
Pointshoot
01-14-12, 15:13
Thanks GJM - - you reminded me to order some more Garrett 44mag and 45-70.
If I recall correctly, JJHACK, the bear hunting guide, recommended using XTP hollow-points for the initial shot when handgun hunting black bears. They tend to swat at the wound like at an intense hornet sting. It helps grab their attention & hold them relatively in place. This sets them up for a finishing shot. If a hardcast bullet doesn't hit heavy bone, it tends to just zip through the animal with little immediate effect. They would run to cover creating a potential hazard for his dogs. (Anyone who has hunted big game has experienced an animal running quite a ways after the shot. I've found that arrows tend to work quicker on body shots.) So, he thought the XTPs generally of greater utility when used against black bears. - - As to larger bears, forget the hollow-points. In a handgun he said you needed a heavy hardcast, flat meplat bullet and tons of luck & prayer in the hope of make a CNS hit through skull or spine. Not a happy prospect.
Sorry - Its been a long time and I can't find the links to the bear guide's article I read, but thought I'd put this up in case someone else recalls. More observational input to chew over.
P.S. - - - this is absolutely no disrespect to anyone or their opinion, but I would think that those who find this thead useful will read it - and those who don't would move on ?
Alaskapopo
01-14-12, 15:16
Was I talking to you?
Real productive thread here...
You made a foolish statement about bears and I called you on it. What is not productive in this thread has been your posts. They have just been jabs and insults at other members. Is it too hard for you to show others respect and agree to disagree?
Pat
Thanks GJM - - you reminded me to order some more Garrett 44mag and 45-70.
If I recall correctly, JJHACK, the bear hunting guide, recommended using XTP hollow-points for the initial shot when handgun hunting black bears. They tend to swat at the wound like at an intense hornet sting. It helps grab their attention & hold them relatively in place. This sets them up for a finishing shot. If a hardcast bullet doesn't hit heavy bone, it tends to just zip through the animal with little immediate effect. They would run to cover creating a potential hazard for his dogs. (Anyone who has hunted big game has experienced an animal running quite a ways after the shot. I've found that arrows tend to work quicker on body shots.) So, he thought the XTPs generally of greater utility when used against black bears. - - As to larger bears, forget the hollow-points. In a handgun he said you needed a heavy hardcast, flat meplat bullet and tons of luck & prayer in the hope of make a CNS hit through skull or spine. Not a happy prospect.
Sorry - Its been a long time and I can't find the links to the bear guide's article I read, but thought I'd put this up in case someone else recalls. More observational input to chew over.
yeah, I read that post as well and it significantly changed the way I thought about things. It's good to hear from a person who has a large amount of experience actually shooting bears, it's a very rare thing to have the perspective available.
Heres (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/21810798?r=43810798#43810798) the link to one of the forums that he posted on.
Heres the post:
JJHACK
Posted 09 April 2003 04:25
This post was from another web site which I put up a long time ago. I thought it might have some relevence to this topic.
I worked for much of my life in a bear damage management program in Washington state. My job week in and week out seasonally was to provide supplimental feed and to remove problem bears from a 380,000 acre tree farm which was bordered by an enormous wilderness area with a seemingly endless supply of black bears. I am currently the Western editor of bear hunting magazine, and a Professional Hunter in the country of South Africa. This past season in Africa my 19 clients shot and killed 117 big game animals in 8 weeks of hunting. That was just one season!
I mention these things so you realize my experience level with big to "HUGE" game is significant. A person needs a bit of resolution in his experience. One or two animals or even a dozen does not make the averaage guy an expert in all that can happen or go wrong. A real authority in the way bullets perform in living tissue needs to see hundreds of big animals shot to study the results and the reactions. From archery, to shotguns and rifles crossbows, and handguns or Muzzle loaders. I have killed or been involved in the direct harvest of hundreds of bears including Brown and grizzly while guiding in Alaska.
When you read this post which follows Remember I'm not just blowing smoke, I've been there! The .44 magnum with a good load will fold up and kill any black bear alive with ease! I don't know who the fellow was that gave the presentation( a previous post stated a .44 magnum was not enough for a black bear) but my guess is that he is baised in some way against handguns, or has little faith in the average user(most likely). I have shot many dozens if not over a hundred with a 44 magnum and never lost a single one. As far as I'm concerned it's nearly the perfect gun for black bear hunting over bait or for as far as 75 yard shooting, maybe further!
Here is my other post:
I might be able to save you some grief and give you a reliable and proven solution. I have had to kill several hundred bears in my life. Many were not in a very happy mood and quite a few would have had my hide torn off PDQ had it not been they were in a foot snare. My Job as a bear hunting guide and as a wildlife manager for many years gave me insight into some conditions regular folks might only see once in a hundred life-times!
First the .44 magnum is plenty of gun for black bear self defense. Not for brownies or grizzly!
Next we have to consider the difference between hunting bears and stopping or imobilizing bears instantly. There is enough difference between the two that many folks get confused when they talk about the ammunition they are suggesting for the gun your asking about. If I were hunting bears a heavy hard cast bullet would be a fair choice. It leaves two .430 diameter holes and usually enough blood to follow to the trophy. The key part of that phrase is "follow to the trophy" !
You will be following the bear because the heavy hardcast bullets will in every case whistle through at a handgun hunting distance broadside shot. This impact is about the equal to a field tipped arrow. The bear has very little reaction except to hunch up for a brief moment and spring forward running as fast as possible often times covering 100 yards and remaining alive for another 30 seconds to a minute or more. Sometimes requiring a follow up shot.
Now consider the bear who is a threat to you. Broadside is out, and bears do not attack while standing. So you have an animal coming at high speed with his head only inches from the ground. If you shoot at his head while the distance is closing you will hit him in the guts without proper lead. That is not an easy thing to do without significant practice and training. If you have the foresight to concentrate while in a panic and shoot at the ground in front of his head you might make a neck or head shot, feel lucky? If you're using hardcast bullets and miss the spine or brain you're getting hit and knocked silly before you even realize what is going on. It's happened to me so I speak from first hand experience on this.
The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made. The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice. Bears are soft and usually small for such a bullet. Those bullets should be used for really big animals with difficult to break bones like elk moose bison and brown bears. Nothing over 400 pounds really needs bullets with that heavy "zip through" construction that a 300 plus grain hard cast construction offers with the exception of wild hogs which have a very thick heavy gristle plate that can prematurely stop softer hollow point bullets.
The reactions I have seen first hand to dozens if not over 100 bears has given me these feelings, not just a bear here and there with random shot placement. Many of the bears shot while hunting are calm and relaxed, the reaction when they are hit is by a significant margin different then when a bear that is agressive and charging you. When we had bears snared that were hit in the chest with a hardcast bullet they continued to pull on the cable to get at us. When bears were shot with the 220-250 grain hollow points most if not all recoiled back and bit at their wound. They always stopped fighting and realized they had bigger trouble then the human they were attacking. The reaction was much different and very consistant. Consider the difference between hitting a deer with a 375HH solid with 4500 plus FPE and shooting that same deer with a 130 grain soft point from a .270, the bigger bullet hitting the deer will allow him to run quite a distance. The Smaller but very explosive 130 grain bullet with only about 2600 FPE will likely fold up the deer on the spot. This is very much like the 240HP VS the 300HC decision. I for one will always carry 240 grain hollow points in my .44 mag revolver and never worry about having enough stopping power for black bears.
JJHACK
Posted 15 April 2003 02:43
I have killed a whole pile of bears with the 300's but from a revolver at longer distance they shoot much like a hardcast bullet. I have recovered so few that I would not expect them to have much mushrooming or impact effect when compared to the faster lighter bullets.
I have one sitting right here on my bullet recovery board( I have a sick fascination with recoverd bullets) This one in particular was shot into a black bear from above and slightly angling away. My hunting partner shot this bear. The distance was about 30 feet away from a treestand. He was using a 7.5" ruger redwawk with 21 grains of 296 and this 300 grain XTP bullet. By most standards this would be considered a very hot load!
The bullet entered just off side of spine between the shoulder blades of the bear and exited the belly. The bear spun around and bolted out of sight with no indication of a hit. I climbed down from my stand and walked over to see a huge crater in the clay like mud. I said I think you missed? He was in stunned amazment he could miss this shot with a scoped revolver!
I dug the bullet out of the mud about a foot deep and rinsed it off in a pool of water. I looked and had blood on my fingers. I though the jacket cut my skin. However I could not find where I cut myself and looked close at the bullet and saw blood in the jacket!
I was about to say to my partner he must have hit the bear when we heard him let out a loud bawling sound. Several steps into the woods showed us a lot of blood. This trail continued for about 150 yards or so and we found the bear dead as a rock.
This bullet has massive expansion and looks like a magazine add. I cannot say for 100% certian what was cause by the bear an what was caused by the mud? My guess is that much of this was caused by mud because of the condition of the lead and the mud under the folded jacket. It's difficult to say for sure. Since it's one of very few recovered my experience is limited with the expansion of the 300 grain bullets. All the others recovered from game have shown the hollow point of the huge 300 grain XTP was opened very little and the mass of the bullet was mostly in the same shape it left the gun.
Jacketed bullets cannot achieve the same velocity with the same pressure that a hardcast bullet can. My XTP's were slower then the lead hardcast were. My opinion:
These bullets are good for the 444 and maybe lever guns in .44 mag which can get them to go over 1500fps. MV's of under 1500fps or impacts of under 1200FPS will likely not allow them to function as a HP bullet but more like a Hardcast bullet at lower velocity. From a handgun the 240's can be driven fast enough to expand well. Heavier then that it's a bit difficult to get consistant expansion in tissue. The 240's will still break bones of game under 400-500 pounds with no problem.
To my way of thinking if I'm after bone crunching power for the larger big game of the world. Hardcast bullets are the rule. If anything less is needed then a 240XTP is without equal in my personal experience.
As an in between load 240 Hardcast bullets are nice for practice and 240 grain or 250 grain softpoints would be a good choice on the thick gristle plate of big wild hogs. I would not hesitate to use a 240 XTP on a big hog within a reasonable distance. That gristle plate will really screw with a bullet though and must be a serious consideration when hunting bigger hogs.
You made a foolish statement about bears and I called you on it. What is not productive in this thread has been your posts. They have just been jabs and insults at other members. Is it too hard for you to show others respect and agree to disagree?
Pat
You made a foolish statement about bears and I called you on it.
What did I say about bears?
What is not productive in this thread has been your posts.
And your war stories are?
You would fit in better over on GT with your argumentative nature.
They have just been jabs and insults at other members. Is it too hard for you to show others respect and agree to disagree?
Kettle meet pot.
You don't have time for warning shots.
Pat
Pat, it sounds like you have a lot of interesting experience with bears. That said it is important to distinguish between your experience and your opinion versus a fact. Having first harvested a grizzly in 1992, recreated around them since then, lived in Alaska for the last ten years, taken the Gunsite bear course twice, and having harvested multiple grizzly bears, I also have some experience and a different opinion on this.
Over multiple occasions, including as recently as with a moose last winter, and a sow and two large cubs in September, I have found a warning shot to cause the animal to discontinue the charge. Since my goal is to stop the attack, my preference is for the bear to go away -- and if a warning shot does that, it is a very efficient and effective use of a single cartridge.
Like people, bears come with a wide range of personalities, and in my experience, charges come in different flavors. Certainly there are instances where you have time for just one shot to the brain, and a warning shot would be a bad use of time available. There are also instances where there is time for a warning shot, and both you and the bear are better off for a different outcome. As a result, it would be wrong to tell someone that they never have time for a warning shot, just as it would be wrong to tell them a warning shot always makes sense. Same with the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of bear spray, or any particular caliber. As an Alaskan, I am sure you know that when the three troopers responded down in Katmai, where the bear had eaten Treadway and his girlfriend, unfortunately the one trooper armed just with a Glock 22 got ahead of the two with shotguns, and he stopped/killed that man-eating bear with .40 S&W as his two shotgun carrying colleagues watched from behind him.
This is a photo taken by my wife not long after I fired a warning shot that turned a sow and two cubs while caribou hunting. At the shot, the bears went running for their lives.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/3bearsgone.jpg
Pointshoot
01-14-12, 18:10
Jack-O
Thank you sir ! :) I couldnt find the link, or the issue of Bear Hunting magazine where he wrote about the subject. Your help is much appreciated. In the magazine article he wrote about his experience guiding for police officers who wanted to use their service pistols to hunt black bear. He was using hounds to tree the bears, and was not impressed at all by the results. Maybe I'll eventually find the magazine, I havent seen that actual article posted anywhere online yet.
It was interesting to find out the views of someone who had been involved with taking down so many bears. One's personal experience with a relatively few number doesn't provide enough information alone.
As for a warning shot for incoming brown bears, maybe it comes down to the distance and time you have? There was a video not too long ago of an Alaskan hunting guide who was charged by a brown bear. It was open country. That bear was out a bit (500yds+, I don't recall exactly). The guide waved his arms to identify the hunting party as human, but it still came running in. He got off one warning shot in the dirt in front of the bear, before she came rushing in anyway. Its amazing how fast the bear moved. As I recall, he had to put several shots into her with a 375 rifle to bring her down (mighta been something bigger bore). You can hearing the guide cussing during and after the shooting. He didn't want to have to shoot that bear, but was forced to do so. Watching that reminds you of how puny any handgun is for the task, even given the advantage that youre more likely to have it on you all the time. That guide was one cool headed professional.
GJM - beautiful country ! Alaska is one of the best places on the planet IMO :)
Regards, - - -
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