View Full Version : Range Report...a few LMT monolithic railed ARs
Hi gents, I just can't refrain from sharing my excitement over the first range report with the new MWS .308..and figured the MRP SPR 5.56 might as well tag along. Since this is about .308 and 5.56 ARs, I hope AR GD was the best place for it.
Let me start out saying that besides stretching ARs out at long ranges on steel, I really enjoy shooting precision groupings which I believe is one of the best tools for examining a rifle's accuracy and precision. My normal accuracy evaluations consist of shooting multiple(2-4) groups of 10 rounds a piece, no called flyers, no cherry picking. I shoot from the prone position, supported in the rear, and a bipod up front. Distance is 100yds.
Conditions present over the 3 hrs(30min spent referring a cpl. of new AR owners to M4C:)) I spent during the range session were as follows:
TEMP: 42-47 degrees F
Wind: N @ 6-8mph
Humidity: 43%
Pressure: 30.36 <---
Some pics of the setup and rifles used during the session:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02522-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02523-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02525-1.jpg
Atlas V8 VS. Harris HBRMS...will revisit this at the end.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02526-1.jpg
The ARs used:
LMT MWS....Rock 16" CL .308 1/10....NXSc 2.5-10x24....KAC 2stage Match trigger...ATLAS V8 Bipod
LMT MRP SPR....Rock 18" 5R SS 5.56 1/7...NXSc 2.5-10x32...GA SD-E.....Harris HBRMS Bipod
RESULTS....Groups:
MWS:
The MWS's first ever shots fired and initial sight in...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02528-1.jpg
MWS Federal GMM 168gr. SMK groups....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target75.jpg
On this one I got to show the original target because it's a straight up bughole...unbelievable:cool:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02544-1.jpg
MWS Hornady 168gr. ZMax(Amax) groups....
NOTE: The first group is a "Molon 3rd Special...the subsequent 7rds were fired into the next target:D"
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target78.jpg
Barnes 150gr. TTSX group(way to damn expensive for more than 1 group)....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target77.jpg
________________________________________________________
MRP SPR:
Note: This set of three groups not only contains a nice example of precision shooting per each individual group, but ultimately you'll see on the third group after slightly adjusting the POI after each successive group, I finally had a group that was both precise and accurate(precision/accuracy are two different things:))
Hornady 55gr. ZMax(Vmax)....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target79.jpg
FINAL NOTES FROM THE DAY:
I better be brief in the following....This MWS is absolutely mind blowing in the accuracy dept. I honestly can already sy that this is flat out the most accurate rifle I've ever shot a cpl. mags through. It a straight f**king laser beam. I'm riding a natural high from this rifle that won't end for at least a few days:p
308 ARs make a 5.56 AR look absolutely anemic...don't get me wrong, the 5.56 AR is still the king obviously given it's much more widespread use, overall greater portability, lighter weight, and much greater forgiving nature.
This MWS lets you know for damn sure every single time you pull the trigger....I can shoot my 5.56 ARs all day and not notice a thing, after 60rds through the .308, my shoulder is telling me "enough". To sum it up, the 5.56 ARs of mine simply "kiss" off my shoulder, this MWS straight "thumps" off my shoulder. Oddly, I LOVE IT:)
Note...the lightest .308 ammo was the 150gr. and it was easily the worst performer accuracy wise. The correlation here is that the MWS barrels are 1/10, essentially the equivalent to the 1/7 in a 5.56 barrel.
Oh yeah...FEDERAL, I'm sorry for talking s**t all these years about your over hyped GMM line, sure your GMM .223 69gr. SMK is the biggest paper tiger ever...but damn, already your GMM .308 lineup is simply amazing.
Lastly, but certainly not least....Thank you Ekbearly(fellow member) who so graciously allowed me to truly see the light today in regards to bipods. I can't express how much the Atlas made a difference for this shooter who loves to shoot precision ARs in the prone position. It's just a damn game changer. Without Ekbearly I might not ever have gotten off the fence given I'm heavily invested in full Harris setups and the Atlas costs $275, however today I realized how stupid I had been for not going ahead and buying once, crying once a year or two ago when I first started lusting after the Atlas. To sum it up, no doubt about it...it's worth every penny and then some(even though I didn't have to buy this one;)) I will be buying one for sure now as I've seen the dark side and there isn't any coming back from it!
Very nice!! I've been looking at the Rock barrels for my current .308 build and this just add another notch to making my decision. One quick question, is the barrel black from a spray-on finish or is it melonited?? I am for certain sending whatever barrel I get to be melonited and didn't know if Rock barrels had any opinion on it...
Thanks brother...Rock Creek most certainly has an opinion on it however I hate to admit but you got me stumped until Monday when I can contact LMT. I know the 16" 5R SST(the actual MoD barrel in the L129A1s) is "blackened". I will most certainly get back to you on this even though LMT is playing the whole Rock barrels very close to the vest at the moment. Ive been scared to death for a year now that LMT is going to go in another direction. They assured me it will be at least as good if not better if they do. That said, it's damn tough to find a better builder than Mike and Rock Creek.
Here is a quote from Rock Creek....
"Guys we have had excellent results with the Melonite process.
The accuracy we have seen on our benchrest barrels is outstanding their is no fouling at all from shot one and throat life is greatly extended. I know that one of the Big name gun company's has over 8000 rounds through a .338 Lapua that Joel Kendrick did for them, and it is still going strong. Joel also has 9000 rounds through his 6X44 600yd benchrest rifle and is still shooting it in competition.
Now here is my disclaimer, I will not use anybody but Joel Kendrick at MMI-Trutec for doing this, he is the only one in my opinion that knows what he is doing with firearms, we used a couple different company's that do the Melonite process, but do not seem to know what they are doing with barrels, we had some terrible results from those places. Also if you have a Melonited barrel that is fouling it can be relapped and it will take care of the issue. The Melonite process is not thicker than chrome and is a case hardening and you don't have to compensate your machining for the thickness where as you would have to for chroming.
Paul Tolvstad
Rock Creek Barrels"
Here is the thread that contains it and it should serve your interest well....
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1673958&page=2
Ive owned 7-8 Rock barrels now and I'm effectively ruined:p
Dos Cylindros
12-17-11, 19:12
Oh snap, you bastard.....How I long for an LMT 308 MWS! I really hope one will soon be mine. Congrats on a bad ass rifle, happy shooting.
Thanks pal, I hope to see you with one of these sooner rather than later:)
Awesome guns as usual, Trident! Are you getting one of the 6.5 caliber guns eventually down the road?
Someday I 'll save up enough money to get a MRP. Hey if your Harris bipod ever needs a home, I got a rifle that could use it.
KG_mauserman
12-17-11, 21:39
Your accuracy results pretty much mirror mine. Wait till you can run some handloads through the MWS. Mine loves 175 SMK and 44.7 grains of varget. I was thinking about getting a SS barrel when I first got it but with the accuracy I can consistantly achieve with the CL barrel I just can't justify it. Truly a great rifle.
Awesome guns as usual, Trident! Are you getting one of the 6.5 caliber guns eventually down the road?
Someday I 'll save up enough money to get a MRP. Hey if your Harris bipod ever needs a home, I got a rifle that could use it.
I'm going to get the 6.5cm 20" 5R SS, I've been dreaming of a .260rem barreled precision MWS for well over a yr. or two now but after really weighing it over, I'm completely sold on the 6.5cm over the .260rem. The .260rem might be sexier, however the 6.5cm gives up nothing to it in the LR game and I believe I can acquire 6.5cm factory ammo cheaper and more available than I can for the .260rem. Plus I have always been a fan of Hornady.
I was gonna wait til I could buy the NF F1 together with this barrel, but now I don't think that's a reality.
As soon as I can afford to grab the inevitable 2nd Atlas, I will send you a Harris HBRMS setup pal. You can just send me your addy the moment you see me packing another Atlas:)
The Harris setups have truly served me extremely well, after several years I have no complaints. The Atlas just ruined me instantly this morning. If somebody doesn't love to drive precision gas guns in the prone position, I'm not sure they will have the proverbial "come to Jesus" moment that I and others Ive read about have had. All I can say is that if you really enjoy shooting prone with a bipod, the Atlas is nothing short of amazing and dare I say a true game changer.
Your accuracy results pretty much mirror mine. Wait till you can run some handloads through the MWS. Mine loves 175 SMK and 44.7 grains of varget. I was thinking about getting a SS barrel when I first got it but with the accuracy I can consistantly achieve with the CL barrel I just can't justify it. Truly a great rifle.
Thanks for reminding me I'm a newb that can't reload;) You can bet I'll be saving every last piece of this premium .308 brass though. Hopefully I will get off the fence and start to try and make an effort. I just love shooting so much that I believe the reloading aspect will not only cut into my shooting time, but my shooting allowance until I get going and know what I'm doing. I can only imagine this rifle with a worked up load that is tailored for the particular barrel.
I've shot several .75" and slightly below 10rd groups with my 5.56 precision ARs with TAP T2, BH's 68gr. HPBT and on occasion 55gr. Vmax, but to shoot those two groups with this .308 gas gun that is much harder to "drive" the very first time out leaves me with a smile ear to ear. In my book, I don't believe it can get much better...regardless of barrel material, rifling, worked up hand loads, etc. All day I've been wondering what the hell is the 16" 5R SST capable of:eek: I think the MoD contract would have just as easily been won with this barrel. LMT was late to the game and was a huge underdog, so they rushed to submit a rifle they thought would give them the best chance. My guess is at that time, they hadn't fully tested the 16" CL in comparison to the 16" 5R SST.
Reason I say that especially is that my pal at LMT continually told me to just be happy with the 16" CL 5.56 barrel I was using in my then MRP Recon. I just had to have a real recce in my definition and thus I got the 5R 16" SS 5.56 barrel from him. He has sent me the tested accuracy on both options, and according to LMT's testing....both the 16" 5.56 MRP barrel varieties are sub moa. IIrc the 16" 5R SS was tested at 5/8" @ 100yds....the 16" CL was test at 7/8" @ 100yds.
Well, It looks like by your results I need to spend some money on some decent ammo. My MWS has been ok with Fed 149gr and Hornandy steel match. I need to get some Fed GMM and try that. Nice report. Now its time to stretch the MWSs legs. Please report back when you are out to 800yds or more. Thanks.
Will do brother.
I'm going to be collecting quite a bit more ammo evaluations, chrono-velocity data, then run a cpl. hundred rds. of surplus through it with several different pmags.....and then this dude is doing nothing but LR shooting. I'm going to collect all this data and contain it ultimately in one thread in a month or two, however I just was excited to share the first range report with all my homies on M4C:p
In the next few days I'll be doing the ammo evals on:
1.) Federal GMM 175gr. SMK
2.) Black Hills 175gr. SMK
3.) Hornady LE TAP 168gr. BTHP
4.) Federal 168gr. OTM (M1A)
I tried for like 20min. to get the 35P working this morning, however I'm still getting the hang of it and I'm probably going to let Oehler look at it and completely retrofit it. Its the cadillac of damn chronos....it deserves to be running in tip top shape. Slomo was the MAN for letting me borrow it, now I need to reward him with some great data:)
Holie Shiate!
Taking mine out today with a 100 rounds of Fed 175gr GMM to see how it goes. To bad I don't have a fancy V8 for my testing :(
I am amazed at those results from the 16"CL barrel. That is impressive accuracy to say the very least.
JeepDriver
12-18-11, 08:35
If I could, I would suggest adding Prvi 168 Match to your testing.
I'm sure the FGGM will out shoot it, but I've shot a few hundred rounds of it through my 16"CL MWS and was getting good results.
Amoung the ammo evals that you have listed, are you going to run any handloads? I know its somewhat taboo with autoloaders, just wondering.
Good write-up hoss...
Couple questions:
1) Why 6.5CM over .260Rem? Strictly availability of factory match ammo? I'm debating the same thing now in anticipation of LMT releasing these barrels in the coming months.
2) What is so great about the Atlas? Never really heard of them before.
3) I've heard really good things about the real deal M118LR in these guns - I can never seem to find it to buy though.
Good range report.
If you ever get down Louisiana way let me know, we will do some shooting on my 600m range.:D
JeepDriver....on your recommendation I will reconsider evaluating the PRZI match varieties, however I've heard some really poor reviews on SH. I think the .223 match is solid. In the past the 75gr. ran really slow, but I think that has been fixed now. I got some really nice results when I tested the PRZI .223.
D90...how did it go, are feeling a strong narcotic effect at the moment:D
Ammotogo has already shipped the several boxes of Federal GMM 175gr. SMK I ordered and it would be wild to see it be more accurate if that's possible(100yd eval...not LR) than the 168gr. variety.
I went today and bought the last 6 boxes of that Federal 168gr. SMK with the same lot number....very disappointed that was all I could get. Those are the type of groups where you just want to quit while your on planet 9.
I got 2 more different types of ammo as well today to add to the list above...Federal Vital Shok 165gr. BTSP....Remington 150gr. Corelokt.
Duece71, personally I only buy and shoot commercially avail. factory ammo since I don't reload, but hey...if it's safe to run, I'll test anything.
Spooky, Thanks pal:) If you haven't read this particular article than I highly recommend it. It lays out the facts in regards to your question really well, and when your done reading I bet you come to the same conclusion I did. I really do want that sexy .260rem that has been touted now for years in the LR competitions but if you can't roll your own, your immediately behind the eight ball the way I see it...even though SWammo has started to make some .260 ammo avail. for reasonable prices but SWammo isn't Hornady imho.
6.5 Creedmoor - .260 Done Right? (http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-creedmoor-260-done-right/)
Other than deployment speed, the Atlas v8 is just that much better. If you shoot prone, in precision capacities, it's like cheating. I have to refrain from glowing on this issue as I'm just elated on the improvement that this bipod made upon the moment I loaded the bipod for the first shot I took yesterday. The movement and fluidity is outta this world as well.
I know I posted this pic above but maybe didn't stress why it was posted. This specific picture shows one of the main reasons why this bipod is the game changer that I believe it is.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02525-1.jpg
Panning the legs forward, than adjusting the legs one or two notches to clear the mag, makes loading the bipod and just overall "driving" the rifle almost effortlessly. As you probably already know....loading a bipod correctly is absolutely crucial and very hard to properly do time in and time out, shot after shot.
The M118lr is hanging out with TAP T2 last time I heard:D
RustedAce, thanks brother....what a blast it would be to shoot alongside your super specimen EMC. You already know the way I view that rifle:cool: Luckily I'm not the jealous type;)
Same goes for you if your ever in Bama. Not sure if your a LSU fan but If you are, I hope you guys beat the s**t outta them in the National Champ game. Nothing worse being AU alum than hearing Bama fans run their mouths for a whole yr. We should have cloned Cam.
Glad to see you're enjoying that new beauty Trident. A friend of mine who has several precision rifles also swears by Atlas bipods. He says they're expensive, but worth every penny over a Harris.
Thanks Steve, after you get your very exciting new project to perfection, maybe a .308 AR could be next on your agenda:p
I owned only one other .308/7.62 type AR in the past which was a N6, and unloaded it very quickly as I realized that even though it was a super nice rifle, I needed to fully explore the 5.56 ARs as best as I could.
Were living in the absolute golden age for these rifles, I believe we finally have a handful of .308 ARs that are every bit a reliable as their little brothers, and once that's taken care of....these .308 ARs really bring some impressive things to the table. This starts really a whole new journey and exploration for myself, and that is what I enjoy the most. I'm glad I can share it with all with my friends on M4C, as well as learn from many of them while they are now currently exploring the .308 AR world.
Im really dying for one of these now, I was resisting until I fired one, Now tridents making it hard to forget...
I think its going to eat my precision bolt budget, Does anyone know if one of these can be built up to be accurate enough for a precision rifle course or something on par with that kind of accuracy?
I know the British are using it now, What kind of accuracy are they demanding?
I know the British are using it now, What kind of accuracy are they demanding?
IIRC, the MoD requirements called for 800m torso shots with 149gr Radway ball (from the SS 16" barrel).
Excellent range report, Trident! I'm just about speechless looking at those MWS results....
jonconsiglio
12-19-11, 13:17
Looking forward to sme 1,000 yard videos...
Spooky, Thanks pal:) If you haven't read this particular article than I highly recommend it. It lays out the facts in regards to your question really well, and when your done reading I bet you come to the same conclusion I did. I really do want that sexy .260rem that has been touted now for years in the LR competitions but if you can't roll your own, your immediately behind the eight ball the way I see it...even though SWammo has started to make some .260 ammo avail. for reasonable prices but SWammo isn't Hornady imho.
6.5 Creedmoor - .260 Done Right? (http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-creedmoor-260-done-right/)
Other than deployment speed, the Atlas v8 is just that much better. If you shoot prone, in precision capacities, it's like cheating. I have to refrain from glowing on this issue as I'm just elated on the improvement that this bipod made upon the moment I loaded the bipod for the first shot I took yesterday. The movement and fluidity is outta this world as well.
I know I posted this pic above but maybe didn't stress why it was posted. This specific picture shows one of the main reasons why this bipod is the game changer that I believe it is.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02525-1.jpg
Panning the legs forward, than adjusting the legs one or two notches to clear the mag, makes loading the bipod and just overall "driving" the rifle almost effortlessly. As you probably already know....loading a bipod correctly is absolutely crucial and very hard to properly do time in and time out, shot after shot.
The M118lr is hanging out with TAP T2 last time I heard:D
Here's one for you... I got my original MRP chasis from Zak Smith in either 2003 or 2004 because it didn't shoot good enough for him!
Great article I have read several times - just seeing if you have any other original thoughts on it. I agree with the premise and design of the 6.5 CM - if you don't reload and like to shoot it is the best way to go. If you like to reload and have lots of patience for brass prep, the .260 Rem is very good.
I wonder if Noveske will do another run of their 6.5 CM barrels?
I'll have to learn to shoot prone better to appreciate the bipod I guess. Right now my Harris set up works well enough!
Spooky
this is on the top of my list for .308's. gorgeous.
did you stipple the grip, mag, covers?
Jsop....with your tastes in rifles, I'm pretty sure you could give a nice home to a loving MWS:)
There is amazing accuracy potential that lies within the LMT monolithic chassis, along with the way the barrel hooks up. The sky is truly the limit given one equips them with the right kit for this task, and a shooter is present behind the trigger. The chassis/barrel hookup design is totally unique in the AR world in regards to the total lack of barrel flex/whip, and the vastly superior heat dissipation properties it yields. Having your barrel stay cool while firing numerous rounds, and having no barrel movements exhibited while being firing is kinda advantageous to precision/accuracy;)
Your question in regards to MoD requirements for the contract was already answered above, however this article goes into the details a bit further and makes for a good read.
Crowned: L129A1 (http://lewismachine.net/media/magazines/BookoftheAR-15%20Article_07-20-2011.pdf)
40Arpent...Appreciate the kind words pal.
Jon...Videos of LR steel shooting are coming very soon, perhaps this time tomorrow I might have a little youtubage to post.
My HD/PD ammo for the MWS is the Barnes VOR-TX 150gr. TTSX....
10yd. water test:
Retained weight: 99.5%
Expansion: .6235
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02752-1.jpg
ETA:
The BCGs in these MWSs are really something else...the pic below shows the broken down BCG after this first range session with it.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02551-1.jpg
this is on the top of my list for .308's. gorgeous.
did you stipple the grip, mag, covers?
I don't ever stipple the grips, however all my rifles have stippled panels, and pmags.
If your interested....here's a DIY tutorial I made for folks to use on the panels:
DIY: custom KAC rail panels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8EdCWQif68)
My pleasure:)
So I didn't quite have the time very early this a.m. to hump my steel and LR video setup at the LR locale, and so I figured I would go ahead and do an ammo eval. on the Federal Vital Shok SGK 165gr. BTSP, and then get a solid 200yd zero in preperation for the first LR steel session. I'd be a fool at this point not to consider the Federal GMM 168gr. SMK my most accurate pill for this rifle, and thus that is what I used to get the new 200yd zero.
Extremely pleased with both results this morning...and it's really nice to see the Federal GMM 168gr. SMK produce the same group measurement at 200yd as those two above.
In an attempt to do as many ammo evals with the MWS as I can with premium factory ammo, I'm going with both types of ammo...precision, and hunting. So with that said, I didn't have the highest hopes for this Federal Premium Vital Shok 165gr. Sierra Gameking BTSP load in terms of accuracy. It totally surprised me and I've never had a SP type ammo turn in groups like this stuff.
Conditions:
Temp: 52-54 degree F
Wind: SSE at 6mph
Humidity: 84%
Pressure: 30.01 -->
Elevation: 417ft. (forgot this above in the first report..same above)
Results:
200yd Zero: Federal GMM 168gr. Sierra MatchKing BTHP:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target94.jpg
Unedited pic....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target93.jpg
Federal Premium Vital Shok 165gr. Sierra GameKing BTSP:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target95.jpg
Unedited pic....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02785-1.jpg
Very nice mate.
Thanks for taking the time to share your results.
Cameron
I would never have expected that kind of accuracy out of the SGK!
Keep up the EXCELLENT work, Trident! I am sitting here on my lazy fat ass just consuming and absorbing the info for near-future use. :D
Thanks guys, getting some positive feedback from folks who are real AR guys is all the motivation I need in order to continue sharing my results:)
"The sweet is never sweet, without the bitter".....
Everything I report about can't be positive given there isn't any rifle that is perfect, and so I figured I would share the few, minor issues I've experienced thus far.
1.) The bolt release is quite difficult to release, being a lefty compounds this significantly as well. Damn I miss my beloved IWS lowers on my 5.56 rifles with the miracle ejection side bolt release mechanism....wow has that thing ruined me.
2.) I'm finding this rifle to be very loud at least to my particular hearing. My MRP CQB 10.5"/BAC2.0 never once bothers me. Oh yeah the recoil on that full power Federal Premium ammo is vicious.
Trident,
Thank you for the very informative thread.
I am following it very closely.
An LMT MWS will be my next purchase.
Belmont31R
12-20-11, 20:32
The first few times you fire a significantly higher recoil round you'll come home with bruised shoulders and feel sore there. You'll get used to it, and then the 5.56 stuff is going to feel like a red ryder.
Everything is magnified with the 308 including cheek to stock fit, head position relative to the scope, recoil, everything has to be beefier, ect.
Its probably going to take 500-1k rounds to get into a good grove with the gun and feel comfortable with it. If you're used to shooting a lot 5.56 its quite a leap in terms of being able to go at it with the 308 for a few hours.
Jsop....with your tastes in rifles, I'm pretty sure you could give a nice home to a loving MWS:)
Ah man you just fed my ego... Now im in the market for one :)
Now the fun part, Weeks of research.
You should get some kind of kickback from LMT. Because of you I have stripped CQB upper for when I can build an SBR when I move out of state.
MikeCLeonard
12-20-11, 20:50
Trident,
Have you considered running a break, or battle-comp on the MWS?
Also...how do you feel about the SOPMOD stock for a rifle like this? Do you think a magpul PRS would be a worthwhile addition? I guess that's really just a matter of how specific a role you want the rifle to fill though.
Awesome post btw, and beautiful .308!!!
RD62...I appreciate it, and let me know if I can test or report back on something specific that has particular interest to you.
That goes for anyone as well. Feedback is one thing that I do very much appreciate in the threads I start on here, and enjoy any and all suggestions, or even critiques I receive.
I have been hoping to see some informative replies come to your thread in regards to a precision 6.5CM MWS in the semi auto precision sub-forum, and wish I could reply but can't offer very much other than my opinion. My plan is to just learn on the fly with the MWS 6.5CM setup.
The first few times you fire a significantly higher recoil round you'll come home with bruised shoulders and feel sore there. You'll get used to it, and then the 5.56 stuff is going to feel like a red ryder.
Everything is magnified with the 308 including cheek to stock fit, head position relative to the scope, recoil, everything has to be beefier, ect.
Its probably going to take 500-1k rounds to get into a good grove with the gun and feel comfortable with it. If you're used to shooting a lot 5.56 its quite a leap in terms of being able to go at it with the 308 for a few hours.
Thanks for that reply, it absolutely nailed it.
I know I can't shoot this rifle for more than an hour. After 50-60rds both times out, I really feel that this rifle has beat the shit out of me. This morning was rough, one of the few times that I could make myself quite before I wasted ammo....so many times I get that precision fatique, and still try to shoot a few more groups or rounds than I know I'm really capable of. It's amazing how not only your strength slowly goes down, but your concentration and patience. One of the coolest aspects or to some sickening aspects is just how much everything starts to break down, first it's the muscles, then it's the concentration, then it's the patience, etc.
Again, I'm really glad you posted that as I should have been man enough to fully fess up in my previous reply.
Belmont31R
12-20-11, 21:12
RD62...I appreciate it, and let me know if I can test or report back on something specific that has particular interest to you.
That goes for anyone as well. Feedback is one thing that I do very much appreciate in the threads I start on here, and enjoy any and all suggestions, or even critiques I receive.
I have been hoping to see some informative replies come to your thread in regards to a precision 6.5CM MWS in the semi auto precision sub-forum, and wish I could reply but can't offer very much other than my opinion. My plan is to just learn on the fly with the MWS 6.5CM setup.
Thanks for that reply, it absolutely nailed it.
I know I can't shoot this rifle for more than an hour. After 50-60rds both times out, I really feel that this rifle has beat the shit out of me. This morning was rough, one of the few times that I could make myself quite before I wasted ammo....so many times I get that precision fatique, and still try to shoot a few more groups or rounds than I know I'm really capable of. It's amazing how not only your strength slowly goes down, but your concentration and patience. One of the coolest aspects or to some sickening aspects is just how much everything starts to break down, first it's the muscles, then it's the concentration, then it's the patience, etc.
Again, I'm really glad you posted that as I should have been man enough to fully fess up in my previous reply.
Yes theres nothing to be ashamed of with it. 5.56 is on the bottom end of recoil so a 308 is a big leap. The first time I went out with my MWS I shot a couple hundred rounds and not only did my shoulder bruise badly but I had quite the headache.
Look at the big bore shooters. 20rds through a 416 is no joke. Yes it helps to be used to the recoil of certain rounds but everything certainly takes getting used to. One way to ruin a potential new shooter is to give them a gun way out of their league like these idiots giving women new shooters 300 magnums, 12GA with 3" loads and 500 handgun calibres and then laugh when the gun bites them.
Jsop....that last rifle you listed in the EE made me drool all over the keyboard:p Please keep me updated on the MRP CQB SBR. I hope you join the MWS club and if there is anything I can do to help your research along please feel free to hit me up with it.
Mike....thanks pal, your one of the few that I know to be a true believer in the LMT monolithic rails ARs.
Great questions...especially on the last one considering I spent the 20min. driving home from the range this morning asking myself that exact question....even down to the PRS.
Here is the way I feel on the stock issue...as a few others now have mentioned, the fitment between the LMT MWS RE and the SOPMOD is even better feeling than the long touted normal LMT RE/SOPMOD complete assembly. The combination of the normal LMT RE and SOPMOD literally makes the stock feel "hydraulic"...however, there still is a little play in the stock. With the MWS SOPMOD assembly, you have the exact same "hydraulic" feel, yet it locks down in a position with almost zero movement...damn near UBR territory. This I really like given it's a compact, fully adjustable stock, yet has a really nice cheekweld for precision shooting, and more importantly locks almost completely down in position.
That's the positive, the negative...quite simply, its beating the hell outta my shoulder and it really needs much more padding than what it has.
I never have had an issue bumping the latch on the SOPMOD with my support hand while shooting prone, however many have and this has to been considered on a rifle that will be shot in prone position often.
In regards to the PRS....I really gave it an honest weighing over this morning as I really, really want a damn monopod on this rifle. I hope to see a UBR strike plate type mod with a small rail section on it to mount a monopod. That would be my end all stock for this rifle. It will end up with a UBR no doubt once it goes into a dedicated precision role. Ultimately the PRS is to big for my tastes, I don't need the adjust cheek piece, or the fixed nature of it, and certainly don't need all the weight, but most certainly do need it's ability to mount a monopod.
I got a BABC sitting on my workbench currently that I had difficulties getting on the other night caused by what I think was a bad crush washer. I'm really now on the fence about not using it at least at the moment because the particular report on this rifle to my ears is quite harsh already. This is very strange thus far to me, as I have never had an issue with rifles, and having them hurt my ears. So I'm still thinking on this issue, and will let you know as soon as I figure out what I'm going to do.
ETA: Belmont's last reply about the "headache"...It starts almost immediately upon firing it both times out. Even my teeth hurt. This "headache" is the exact reason I'm on the fence about the BABC or any other comp.
You need a suppressor to knock down the loudness and recoil.:D
Woe to us lefties, my EMC doesnt have the left handed bolt release either.
Belmont31R
12-20-11, 21:42
ETA: Belmont's last reply about the "headache"...It starts almost immediately upon firing it both times out. Even my teeth hurt. This "headache" is the exact reason I'm on the fence about the BABC or any other comp.
EMC (Cough) ;)
Yes theres nothing to be ashamed of with it. 5.56 is on the bottom end of recoil so a 308 is a big leap. The first time I went out with my MWS I shot a couple hundred rounds and not only did my shoulder bruise badly but I had quite the headache.
Look at the big bore shooters. 20rds through a 416 is no joke. Yes it helps to be used to the recoil of certain rounds but everything certainly takes getting used to. One way to ruin a potential new shooter is to give them a gun way out of their league like these idiots giving women new shooters 300 magnums, 12GA with 3" loads and 500 handgun calibres and then laugh when the gun bites them.
The gas system isn't helping too. If he moves to an 18" it would help a lot with the longer gas system. .308 + carbine gas ='s RECOIL. He will get used to it but it's still going to kick like a pissed off mule.
Like you said, it's a jump from 5.56 to .308 but the short gas system isn't helping his cause. It has its benefits but you pay the price in felt recoil. That's one (or another) area where the OBR and EMC really excel. They are much softer shooting.
Great report Trident! The accuracy you are getting is a hell of a testament to your shooting and the rifle. Keep it up.
The gas system isn't helping too. If he moves to an 18" it would help a lot with the longer gas system. .308 + carbine gas ='s RECOIL. He will get used to it but it's still going to kick like a pissed off mule.
Like you said, it's a jump from 5.56 to .308 but the short gas system isn't helping his cause. It has its benefits but you pay the price in felt recoil. That's one (or another) area where the OBR and EMC really excel. They are much softer shooting.
Great report Trident! The accuracy you are getting is a hell of a testament to your shooting and the rifle. Keep it up.
If I am reading this right, the 16" barrel on the MWS has a carbine length gas system and the 18" barrel has a longer gas system? If that is true, then a person would be better off getting a longer barrel to help with recoil, correct?
I definitely would love to be able to get a .308 in the future, whether it would be a bolt action or a semi auto.
JeepDriver
12-21-11, 06:57
Suppresor :D
When I got the 20" barrel with rifle length gas system it was a noticeable difference in shooting comfort. My next modification will either be a heavier buffer or A2 stock & rifle buffer. Unless I call Vltor and they tell me the A5 works with the MWS, that would be the best solution to me.
Trident82,
Thank you for a great review and discussion about a rifle I'm very interested in, and great shooting!!!
I always look forward to your threads. I never fail to learn something from your threads. You are a definite asset to this site.
Question. I understand the version the Brits use was tuned for the Radway M80 round. I do not know the rifling twist that's used in their setup. Would you know, aside from their barrel being SS vs. CL, is the barrel in your gun setup to the same spec as the Brit rifle, is the twist the same? I'd be curious to see how regular 'ole 7.62x51 M80 FMJ shoots out of your rifle vs the heavier match stuff.
Thanks again!!!
EMC (Cough) ;)
Oh no you DIDN'T!!! :lol:
Trident, are you wearing double earpro (plugs and muffs)? Also, trying using a mouth guard....you might be clenching your teeth without realizing it.
Trident82,
Thank you for a great review and discussion about a rifle I'm very interested in, and great shooting!!!
I always look forward to your threads. I never fail to learn something from your threads. You are a definite asset to this site.
Question. I understand the version the Brits use was tuned for the Radway M80 round. I do not know the rifling twist that's used in their setup. Would you know, aside from their barrel being SS vs. CL, is the barrel in your gun setup to the same spec as the Brit rifle, is the twist the same? I'd be curious to see how regular 'ole 7.62x51 M80 FMJ shoots out of your rifle vs the heavier match stuff.
Thanks again!!!
I really appreciate the kind words friend:)
In regards to your question, I will be speaking with my pal at LMT very soon, and will try to get your question answered directly from the folks who would know the best.
I will volunteer my thoughts and attempt to answer it the best I can. I'm not sure if the L129A1's barrel was specifically spec'd for the MoD contract. More than likely that barrel would exist regardless of the MoD contract since LMT makes a comparable 5.56 version(16" 5R SS 1/7 5.56) for the MRP platform since the inception of them back in the Fall of 2004.
The barrel specs in question are:
16" CL .308 1:10 (MWSE model/the one I currently am using)
16" 5R SST .308 1:11.25 (MWSF model/the one the British use)
Both barrels are cryogenically treated to increase accuracy, barrel life and make cleaning easier.
In regards to the special need to run the lighter radway green M80 ball ammo in the contract specifications....it certainly makes since that the Brit's are running a 1:11.25 twist barrel instead of the 1:10 simply because the 1:11.25 should in theory shoot the lighter bullets better than the 1:10 twist barrel.
The 1:11.25 is kinda like a jack of all trades twist rate, whereas the 1:10 is best shooting the heavier stuff. That said, a 1:10 should really shoot everything well.
D90....I'll keep the reports coming brother, looking forward to hearing your thoughts and results once you start to formulate them on your new MWS.
Tomorrow I will be testing several more types of ammo including:
1. Winchester Supreme 168gr. Ballistic Silvertip...very cool looking stuff
2. Hornady Custom 150gr. SST
3. Hornady 168gr. ZMax...re-testing this stuff as my first rounds ever shot on this rifle were those ZMax groups above. I think I can improve.
It's days like today when you really have the opportunity to truly grow as a shooter, and see what a particular rifle is really made of.
This is one amazingly accurate and true hard use rifle imho, I imagine the British and New Zealand troops know this far better than I do.
The very beginning of today's session....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02800-1.jpg
The very end of today's session where I was literally shooting prone in an inch of water.....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02803.jpg
Conditions:
TEMP: 46 degrees F
Wind: SSW at 13mph
Humidity: 96%
Pressure: 29.82 <--
Elevation: 417ft.
*** Severe T-storm and heavy showers with a Tornado alert :cool:
Results:
Hornady Custom 150gr. SST
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target35.jpg
Unedited pic:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02841-1.jpg
Winchester Supreme Ballistic 168gr. Silvertip:
10rd. Quarter Dot Drill...(I should have smacked the s**t out of the bubba beside me who was spraying and praying with his tactical 10/22, hints the .22 keyholes in my pic.)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02799-1-2.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02847-1.jpg
Hornady 168gr. ZMax with a huge surprise:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target38.jpg
**note that the bullet not counted in the group was the adj. to POI for another group that never happened due to what you'll see below.
Unedited pic...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02843-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02851-1.jpg
I always wondered why military ammo really needs primers that are either sealed, crimped, or both.;) While this might only be a problem in the extremely harsh conditions I was shooting in straight for cpl. hrs. today, I can see why sealed and crimped primers are preferred for fighting rifles that operate in harsh conditions. Sure enough, the primer popped back into the action, and the case ejected as normal....and if I were in a fight, I'd been in a damn tight squeeze. This is the first blown primer I've ever experienced. So I didn't end up doing that second group w/ the ZMax ammo in case you wondered:D
While those 150gr. SST groups are just outside of being sub MOA groups, I honestly believe that its gonna be more accurate than the Federal GMM 168gr. SMK and I fully expect to have it shoot sub MOA next time out. One shot separates both those groups from being very much sub MOA groups. At any rate, this ammo is a straight laser beam in these MWSs and I will be stocking it deep in my stash in the future.
Lastly, hate to admit it....double earpro solved all my problems as I thought it might, it's just a pain in the ass to keep up w/ both of them and then put on both of them. For this rifle, it makes all the difference in the world for me. Odd how sometimes the most simplest of solutions can be the golden ticket.
Nice report and great shooting!
A local gun shop had the MWS with two barrels in stock for around $2900 or so. They dropped the price by a little over $200 after they sold one of the barrels. My first impression was that it's quite heavy and I would think it would take a LOT of training to get used to shooting it unsupported, but it that it would feel pretty solid shooting with a bipod.
The cost of the MWS and ammo to run it has it out of my range for now. I'm thinking an MRP may be possible in the near future. Do you have multiple barrels for the MWS and MRP? I see that you have an 18" SS barrel for the MRP. Did you also get a 16" CL barrel as well?
ETA: I've shot the Hornady Superformance 75 gr in my DDM4 middy and the casings showed signs of over pressure in the expansion of the case webbing in more than 50% of the casings. I later found the article on Hornady's website regarding the use of the Superformance ammo in semi-autos and that it performed better in rifle length gas systems and showed signd of over pressure in carbine and mid-length gas systems. I've contacted DD about this and they indicated that this ammo should run fine in the DDM4, but if I was concerned, to try a heavier buffer spring and/or buffer. Not sure what I will do with the rest of the Superformance ammo that I have left though.
Trident,
What were your impressions of the Winchester 168gr Ballistic Tip?
I used that ammo to great effect hunting whitetail with my Rem700 PSS and it seemed quite accurate when shot for groups (but then it wasn't a detachable mag fed gas gun and had a much longer barrel).
jonconsiglio
12-23-11, 09:51
The gas system isn't helping too. If he moves to an 18" it would help a lot with the longer gas system. .308 + carbine gas ='s RECOIL. He will get used to it but it's still going to kick like a pissed off mule.
Like you said, it's a jump from 5.56 to .308 but the short gas system isn't helping his cause. It has its benefits but you pay the price in felt recoil. That's one (or another) area where the OBR and EMC really excel. They are much softer shooting.
Great report Trident! The accuracy you are getting is a hell of a testament to your shooting and the rifle. Keep it up.
Yeah, I was quite surprised when I first fired one at how sharp the recoil was compared to my SCAR or the SR25. Not that it's unbearable, just noticeable. Some days we'll put a couple hundred rounds through our 308's, so that 18" might be the way to go.
I'd definitely run the A5 on it though with the 16" and that should help, as long as its good to go with the MWS.
Trident, looking good. I'm still waiting on some videos man!
Oh, and this is just my opinion, but I hate to double up on ear pro and usually only wear the Surefire plugs or electronic. I have some seriously loud rifles and I've just gotten used to it. The 308 with a brake is pretty loud (I'll be going back to a flash hider when the Surefire 7.62 Mini finally is available) but I have a couple that are ungodly.
The reason I do it that way is that I shoot with others quite a bit and don't want to get used to doubling up on my own then when there are people around and I need to communicate or I'm hunting with a couple guys (stalking hogs through the woods, for example, so I need to be able to hear) have to deal with the blast and noise I'm not used to.
Just a tip! The blast and the feel of the recoil with both get better and you'll become much more accustomed to it relatively soon.
The Slash CAR-10 buffer with the UBR/ehanced butt-pad has made shooting very comfortable with my MWS. I shot the better part of a day (200+ rounds) with only slight discomfort on the back-end. I think you will enjoy the rifle more once you get the good old UBR on it.
The BABC won't make you many friends at the range, but from behind the gun I have been fine with just my electronic muffs. Getting the Battlecomp lined up and secured properly was a pain... it now has a few small scratches. However, I have been happy with the results so far.
I am having too much fun shooting at steel out to 1,000 to spend the needed time on groups at 100. I know I need to settle down and invest the time. I hope to get some in-action pictures/videos to post tomorrow.
Happy shooting!
Dammit Alex. Ur making me really want to start putting more cash back each check to pick up one of these.....
Can't wait to see what she does at 500+
Dirtyboy333
12-27-11, 21:31
Your accuracy results pretty much mirror mine. Wait till you can run some handloads through the MWS. Mine loves 175 SMK and 44.7 grains of varget. I was thinking about getting a SS barrel when I first got it but with the accuracy I can consistantly achieve with the CL barrel I just can't justify it. Truly a great rifle.
Whats.your.OAL?....I.just.loaded.my.first.loads.for.my.MWS.and.I.started.with.43.1Varget.and.175.SMK.loaded.to.2.815.inches.......Im.shooting.them.tomorrow.but.im.a.litlle.worried.that.theyre.loaded.to.long......
sorry,my.space.bar.just.broke...:mad:
drck1000....thanks, in the past I've owned several different barrels for the MRPs including the 16" CL 5.56 model, however presently I just own three complete MRPs with their associated barrels. I also only own the 16" CL for the MWS currently. I think you would really like a MRP, and if you have any questions in regards to them feel free to pm anytime.
RD62... I had a small amt. of time this morning to run back up to the range to re-test the Hornady 150gr. SST and the Winc. 168gr. Silvertip since last time out I was shooting in such horrible conditions. The results are below. Overall it seems to be quality stuff, however I won't be buying anymore in the future.
Jon...Thanks pal, I got these last few types of ammo evals to do in one or two more range sessions and then it will be nothing but LR shooting and some videos.
Ekbearly....I really appreciate the advice and will be pm'ing you soon about the UBR as I'm getting close to going in that direction. If you weren't having an absolute blast shooting steel @ 1000yds with your particular MWS, I'd request a pulse check on you from your shooting buddies:D In all seriousness you have easily the finest MWS I've ever seen to date. It's just perfect!
JW...I'd love to have you shoot some CMP steel @ LR with me anytime you get down to AL. Just make sure you bring that sweet new signaling attachment for the steel targets. Were gonna be outta audible range:cool:
Winchester Supreme 168gr. Ballistic Silvertip:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target82.jpg
unedited:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03147-1.jpg
Hornady 150gr. SST:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target42.jpg
unedited:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03140-1.jpg
Notes....in regards to the Hornady 150gr. SST, I said after that last session in the worst conditions imaginably that this ammo was extremely impressive stuff and would be true sub moa stuff, and this morning I confirmed that feeling and statement to be an actual fact. I most certainly will be ordering 10 boxes more of this stuff and it will no doubt be one of my few chosen types of ammo when all of this ammo eval. testing is said and done.
Lastly, as you can see in the pic below...I have 5 more types of ammo to do an eval. on than I will be done. Those last 5 types(minus the Rem. 150gr. Corelokt PSP) are very important for myself, and that is the reason I chose to do them last.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03108-1.jpg
Trident,
I think your ammo evaluation is turning out to be quite a valuable resource and I look forward to it's conclusion and eagerly await your updates as you begin to extend the ranges you are shooting the MWS.
Thank you for taking the time to tabulate all this information so thoroughly.
Dirtyboy333
12-28-11, 19:48
Trident,since.the.FGMM.seemed.to.shoot.the.best.out.of.your.MWS.are.you.planning.on.buying.any.more.of.it.or.are.you.going.to.stick.with.your.long.time.favorite.(hornady)?:D
One.day.I.will.get.you.to.give.up.on.that.stuff.and.shoot.SMK....just.kidding.:p
Whenever.you.get.a.chance.can.you.give.me.the.OAL.on.your.175.FGMM?
Again,sorry.about.my.space.bar.but.my.new.keyboard.will.be.here.tommorrow.
Devildawg2531
12-28-11, 21:01
Trident thanks for the in depth eval on the MWS. I'm following it closely and am looking at selling my M1A Loaded and putting that into either an MWS or OBR. What does your MWS weigh loaded with scope but without the bipod? I want sub MOA with least weight possible.
It's my pleasure RD62 and Devildawg:)
The weight on the rifle as configured exactly below minus the pmag is 11.79lbs.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03081-1.jpg
Dirtyboy...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03151-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03148-1.jpg
The BHs load show less variance when measuring several different rounds, on the FGMM...The shortest I saw was 2.804, and the longest I saw was 2.812.
eta...RE: Don't get me wrong, the FGMM 168gr. SMK will be extensively bought and used at long ranges, however the Hornady 150gr. SST shoots a lot cleaner, and with less recoil. I can get away with more when shooting that Hornady load than I can the Federal Premium FGMM load. I really have to lock the rifle down and use a great deal more technique and concentration when shooting the FGMM.
eta...Ok, the weight w/o the bipod is 11.02 lbs
Dirtyboy333
12-28-11, 23:12
Thanks.bud.....your.so.helpful.:cool:
I.got.the.low.down.on.those.flash.targets.as.well......Very.nice!!!....Although,i.already.have.the.steel...
Trident,
Happy New Year, any updates on the last few ammo types?
I'm about to find out what all the "monolithic" hoopla is about.
Cameron
I'm about to find out what all the "monolithic" hoopla is about.
Me too. I'm going to put my deposit down for a 16" LMT MRP this week.
Don't you have a BCM setup similar to your new 16" LMT. Even though your BCM is likely a middy, I would be interested in your thoughts between the two.
Trident,
Happy New Year, any updates on the last few ammo types?
Sorry for the delay friend, I must have missed the post of yours as I been kinda sporadic with my amounts of time of here lately.
The weather last week was very cold, and thus far this week has been very rainy. Trying to get close to ideal conditions for the last bit of testing, but you can count on me to post them up real soon.
CAMERON....F**K YEAH, can't wait to see how your new MRP evolves and how you like it!
Drck1000....Very excited to hear about your upcoming MRP as well since we have discussed it behind the scenes a bit through PMs.
Great stuff guys:)
Sorry for the delay friend, I must have missed the post of yours as I been kinda sporadic with my amounts of time of here lately.
The weather last week was very cold, and thus far this week has been very rainy. Trying to get close to ideal conditions for the last bit of testing, but you can count on me to post them up real soon.
CAMERON....F**K YEAH, can't wait to see how your new MRP evolves and how you like it!
Drck1000....Very excited to hear about your upcoming MRP as well since we have discussed it behind the scenes a bit through PMs.
Great stuff guys:)
You should be sorry! How am I supposed to live vicariously through you while I wait for my own MWS if you aren't posting regular ammo results, range pictures, and long range shooting videos? :D
I know, I know....:D
I'm currently trying to figure out a nighttime LR steel shooting setup....been wanting to do this for a year or two now but never had the balls to go ahead and start playing around with it. Since I've gotten the .308 now with it getting dark so early/getting light a bit later, this has been the thing that I've been daydreaming at work the most about.
The .308 should smack the sh*t outta that steel so much louder down in my little lake valley than .223/5.56, and hearing that bang..........ding ringing in the night, along with the XM62 LR tracing and then impacting the steel should make for some sensational viewing.
Eric Kozowski
01-11-12, 12:38
Trident, be sure and try the Federal Fusion line, too. My 308MWS really likes the 150 gr. loading. Here's some chrono data from the 16" CL barrel. Note the really low SD:
4200', 80 deg F
Federal Fusion 150gr, BC .414
2699
2717
2706
2722
2719
Avg: 2713 SD: 9.69
Trident, be sure and try the Federal Fusion line, too. My 308MWS really likes the 150 gr. loading. Here's some chrono data from the 16" CL barrel. Note the really low SD
Actually I experienced the same thing with Fed Fusion ammo out of both my DSA FAL and FNH PBR. Federal seems to have the lowest SD out of all the manufacturers I tested in their commercial lines.
Cameron
Eric, thanks very much for the contribution of the additional data points. I will certainly take your recommendation and post the results once I test it out.
I hope it's alright that I add a quote/reply of yours from a thread you started some time ago that I found to be very helpful and informational....it just adds a bit more on to what you had posted above.
Got a chance to chrono some ammo out of my 16" LMT MWS.
Rifle: LMT MWS .308 16" CL bbl
Chrono distnace from muzzle: 15'
Temp: 80 deg F
Elevation: 4200'
1st load: Federal Fusion 150gr, BC .414
2699
2717
2706
2722
2719
Avg: 2713 SD: 9.69
2nd load: Federal Fusion 165gr, BC .446
2509
2551
2516
2547
2569
Avg: 2538 SD: 25.17
3rd load: Hornady 168gr A-MAX, BC .475
2479
2461
2464
2470
2495
Avg: 2474 SD:
I shot 300 rds. of the Federal Fusion 150gr over three days. It held MOA or less groups out to 300yd. I was very, very happy with this load.
I only shot about 40 rds of the Federal Fusion 165gr, but none of it at paper (only steel). It shot well, too, but I don't know how it groups.
I only shot the Hornady A-MAX 168gr across the chrono.
This rifle is already a unforgiving beast given it's .308 gas gun nature, however the fact that I have made it a point to at first run it as bone stock/no frills as possible while evaluating it in terms of accuracy and reliability has really made this rifle one extremely unforgiving, yet super rewarding rifle to shoot. You have to earn it, but when you do, this rifle is a straight laser beam. This rifle in it's current state with the most unforgiving 10x variable powered optic around...the nxsc 2.5-10x24, perhaps one of the worst true precision stocks in terms of prone shooting...the Sopmod, and the factory recoil (i.e. standard buffer/spring/A2 muzzle device) has been a really fantastic challenge thus far, and has refreshed my fundamentals and technique enormously. You can get away with SO MUCH driving a 5.56 precision AR, you can't hardly get away with anything with a .308 gas gun.
So with that said, and after evaluating another 50-60rds of these full powered premium factory loads...especially the Federal premium, and more specifically the Fusion load, I decided to stop with only doing three new ammo evaluations. I did however spend about 1 hr. doing a test that I had long been wanting to do on paper with my MRPs but never got around to it and hopefully some of you will find it helpful or interesting.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03204-1.jpg
Conditions:
Temp: 28 degees F
Wind: S at 4mph
Humidity: 37%
Pressure: 30.48 -->
Elevation: 417 ft.
Federal GMMM 175gr. SMK (7.62 labeled with military brass)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target66.jpg
unedited:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03228-1.jpg
Note: I used almost half a box with the below MWS barrel swap/torque testing, however I will be doing two more 10rd. groups of this and the above group is really just a preliminary one and I believe it can be improved quite a bit.
Federal 165gr. Fusion:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target64.jpg
unedited pic:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03225-1.jpg
Winchester 150gr. Ballistic Silvertip:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/target65.jpg
unedited:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03227-1.jpg
Notes for today:
Ekbearly truly has the finest MWS configuration Ive seen to date...he has a larger objective NXSc, the awesome UBR stock, BABC comp...heavier buffer/spring setup, SD-E trigger, and last but not least a Atlas V-8 bipod. Life would be so much easier doing all this with Eric's MWS vs. mine.
Eric K....thanks for the Fusion tip, and I obviously listened to you and picked up the only variant of it I could find locally. I must say that I'm extremely impressed with that accuracy given its a SP type of bullet....not to mention it's very highly regarded IIrc according to Doc and his .308 LE 16" ammo selection suggestions. That type of accuracy from that lethal of a bullet is making me reconsider using the Barnes Vor TX 150gr. even though I'm an admitted TSX whore. I will however say that this particular variety of Fusion packs one helluva punch in terms of recoil. You certainly know every time you shoot one of these rounds. At any rate, thanks brother...great suggestion.
RD62...I picked up that second type of Winc. Ballistic Silvertip with you partly in mind but as suspected since it's even lighter than the 168gr. tested above....it's less accurate and now I can officially say I won't be shooting or buying any of the Ballistic Silvertip .308 line in the future. It has some serious recoil, however it burns quite clean.
While I certainly already knew the results of this test prior to conducting it given how long Ive observed the conclusions noted in the test below and have been telling folks that the MRP/MWS chassis returns the same barrel back to a dead nuts zero every time, and it's not that torque dependent or sensitive(...as even the LMT engineers will tell you), I thought some might be interested to see the results.
The first group was shot with the previous 140in.lb. torque I used when re-installing the barrel previously prior to this range session. I then removed the barrel, re installed it to 140 in. lb. torque and then shot the second group or target. Then I removed the barrel, re installed it to 130 in.lb. torque, then shot the third group/target........and so forth as you will see in the pic below.
I used a different torque wrench for each different torque measurement/target-group. Testing was conducted at 100yds using the FGMM 175gr. SMK.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03210-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03223-1.jpg
Shooterman017
01-15-12, 13:46
Trident, great shooting brother. Forgive me if I missed the memo, but what barrel were you shooting on the MWS for the torque test?? Am I correct in reading/remembering earlier you have 2 barrels?
I handled a pair of 16" MWSses and I feel that if I ever went with a precision semi .308, it might wind up getting the nod. Those guys keep saying they love theirs.
Thanks brother, currently I only have the one barrel that came with my MWS from the get go which is the MWSE...or the Rock 16" CL 1:10.
This particular MWS within hopefully the next half year or so will be totally configured for LR precision applications....and will feature two different barrels, with the overall rifle's configuration staying the exact same b/t different barrels:
1.) The actual British MoD contract L129A1 barrel(MWSF, or the Rock 16" 5R SS 1:11.25 chambered in .308
2.) Rock 20" 5R SS 6.5cm
I will swap the Sopmod for a UBR/heavier buffer/spring
Replace the NXSc 2.5 with a NXS F1 (3.5-15x50)
The MWS SBR 13.5" is my ultimate fantasy rifle though....I've got a set vision my friend, now if the damn money tree in the back yard will start doing it's job:D
Trident,
Bless you my friend! A little MWS fix to sooth my craving a bit. I went to the local gun show today and if there had been one there it would have come home with me!
Thanks for the update on the Ballistic Silvertip. I had run it previously as a hunting round more for it's terminal effects then utmost accuracy. I was curious how it would perform though, since I still have some of it around.
Interesting to see the results of the barrel torque test too.
Is that a new trigger I spy? One of the ones you IM'ed me about?
I'm also interested to hear what shortcomings you've experienced with the SOPMOD during your testing? I'm not a huge SOPMOD fan (I prefer an EMOD) and wondered for a precision role what you felt would make a better stock, or at least what features or attributes would be preferable over your current stock?
Good questions on both accounts...I figured I already had rambled on enough with that last report above, but both the trigger and sopmod were very important parts of today's particular session.
Over the last few years I've swapped quite a number of different Geissele triggers across all my different ARs...I ran a pair of SSA's, a pair of S2S's, a SD-C, a SD-3G, and that very special particular SD-E you noted in the above pic. I've also run a few LMT 2stagers quite some time ago, and had several KAC 2stage match triggers that came with my IWS complete lowers(sold all of them NIB except one that I kept for myself that was just in the MWS). That SD-E is just a savant in the precision AR role.
Not that it's any big deal, but Bill G was kind enough to actually send me the first SD-E in the wild for T&E. I received it perhaps 2 yrs. ago and made it my mission to try and break it over the last cpl. years. I swap it back in forth between 3-4 rifles constantly. I've never come close to logging as many rounds on a single trigger as this one, and there is no amt. of money I would ever get rid of this one trigger for:p
It made all the difference in the world this morning, and I won't be shooting this MWS again without this SD-E or another one that I buy in the future. It just blows away the KAC 2stage match and LMT 2stage stock trigger that never even got used for a single shot. Just ask Ekbearly about his new SD-E in his MWS;)
In regards to the Sopmod....I think several things make it ill suited for true precision AR work, but to be somewhat brief I will address the main issue it has, and the one I had today with it. Today I really focused on getting my support hand on top of the rear bag better and get a better hold on the rear/bottom of the stock....by doing this today and really applying more prone fundamentals than in the past, the MWS's recoil knocked the Sopmod's latch into my support hand which in return activated the latch release. and thereby right after you break the shot...the stock collapses from the forth position all the way to the first. It throws you for a loop big time . Totally ruins your positioning and setup for the following shots of the groups.
So long story short, the 5.56 AR's recoil when shooting prone with your support hand on the bottom of the Sopmod isn't really enough to cause the gun to recoil into that support hand and thereby releasing the stock's latch.....the .308/MWS's recoil is most certainly enough to cause this problem with the Sopmod when shooting prone. It happened either 3 or 4 times today. Never had it happen in the past. UBR here I come, can't wait!
This is why Kevin from KAC recommends the ACS stock on the EMC or other SR25 variants vs. the Sopmod which the rifles actually ship with.
So the issue is more that the stocks release lever being is of a similar design to the standard M4 stock than an issue of cheek weld or some other aspect of the stock?
I'm sure the ACS is a great alternative it's aesthetics (as dumb as that sounds) just don't suit me. Do you feel the EMOD or IMOD with it's negative toe pitch and butterfly latch would be an equally suitable replacement and why have you decided on the UBR?
Also since you brought up additional barrels, why the 16" SS and not the 18 or 20" varieties with their longer gas systems?
Sorry for the 20 questions, just trying to educate myself properly so that I can plan out my purchases most effectively.
Thanks!
You most certainly aren't bothering me with the questions, especially ones that are well formulated and pertain to a decision someone is thinking about making that involves substantial sums of money:) I only hope I can provide some answers to them that will be sufficient enough to help folks gain a little clarify.
RE: I really love the Sopmod stock when run in conjunct with a real deal LMT RE....moreover the .308 LMT RE and this Sopmod feels beyond "hydraulic" and it locks up so nicely. In terms of the Sopmod as a stand alone stock, it's damn tough to beat and there just isn't much not to like about it given how tough it is, and the truly wonderful cheek weld gained when using it. I never use any storage on any grips or stocks, but perhaps the Sopmod's storage is a bit difficult to access and old fashioned. To me it's my favorite stock still for everything but true precision ARs.
The things that I don't like about for this MWS/precision role is because:
1. First and foremost, prone shooting with it is a true PITA...Ive heard many claim this over the years, and even saw how easily this could theorectically happen, but never had it happen on 5.56 ARs...even when I ran it on my MRP Recce, and MRP SPR which I shot almost exclusivly in the prone position.
2. While not an issue with 5.56 ARs, the actual butt pad is both lacking in material, and the actual material that is there is quite hard. On a .308 gun I'm finding out this is a real detriment. It could use a much more robust and softer made recoil/butt pad for the actual stock.
3. While the cheekweld is perfect by in large for most M4s/Ars that often use irons, or RDSs....Optics with a small objective/E.P. like mine especially on the 2.5-10x24 is not nearly as easy to repeat your same cheek weld from shot to shot like it is on the UBR. WHile the UBR is not nearly as "sloped" in the cheek weld area like the Sopmod, it provides just such a fantastic cheek weld for true powered variable optics and it makes finding and holding the same cheek weld each time a great deal easier.
Basically I'm just a huge believe in running UBR's on long railed, more front heavy, precision type orientated ARs that run variable powered optics. It's not gonna work like a Sopmod on the standard M4, just like the Sopmod won't work like the UBR on a precision gas gun. So it's also a case of not so much what sucks about the Sopmod, but what is so awesome about the UBR for this particular application. It has the option of an enhanced soft butt pad, it's fully adjustable yet locks up every bit as a fixed A2 when in a position. Has a great toe for bedding on a rear bag.....it just needs a damn pic rail sectioned onto it or MP needs to make a sling plate mod that already has a pic rail built onto it.
In terms of barrel selection....much like I believe that 18" is the absolute most one needs for a 5.56 precision AR, and actually most times a Recce 16" over the SPR 18", I believe for 1000yds a highly accurate 16" barrel is all I need in terms of a .308.....if I'm going past 1000yds, it's time to start looking at much better options like a 6.5cm, or a .260rem. in a 20" barrel that will far exceed the .308 envelope regardless of the .308's barrel length. From a 1000-1500yds, I'm taking the 20" 6.5cm/.260 barrel over any length .308 barrel. Essentially if I'm gonna get a 4" longer barrel than the stock 16" model, I want some serious return for that added weight, reduced mobility, and ultimately extra money....the 18" or 20" .308 option won't really give that to me in the face of a highly accurate 16" CL or 16" SST .308 barrel.....a 20" 6.5cm/.260 I believe will give it to me and be worth it given I really try to stretch the distances.
All this combined with the fact that the British troops fielding the 16" SST model have been having some fantastic reports back from the field in terms of the distances they have engaged and taken out enemy.
1300yds with a Rock 5R 16" SST .308 L129A1 is GTG for me:cool:
Dirtyboy333
01-16-12, 09:45
Yeah, I just bought the 18" SS strictly for the gas system. I not to worried about the minimal velocity loss with the 16"
Is the MWS available from the factory with the 18"SS barrel?
Everything I've seen has been the 16"barrel CL.
If I didn't have to hump my LR precision ARs quite often a good ways in hilly terrain, I'd rather have the 18" model for a cpl. of reasons.
1.) I would buy it if I knew I were gonna be doing the vast majority of my shooting in a static/prone position with very little transporting of it. Since I wouldn't have to worry about humping it, the extra 2", IIrc larger contouring in certain areas, and ultimately the added weight of the 18" vs. 16" really makes the rifle that much more enjoyable shooting prone. If anybody read my Battle for light precision supremacy thread.. the Recce 16" vs. the SPR 18"(5.56 rifles), they'd have read where at the end I summarized why I ultimately would lean towards being a Recce man given that my usage of a precision AR is more portable/less static, however on the days that I didn't have to hump much, I most certainly took the 18" SPR rather than the 16" Recce. Once in the FFP, the SPR was always the more enjoyable of the two rifles to actually shoot. As little as it seems, that added weight of the SPR made driving it from shot to shot easier as well due to the reduced movement from recoil after each shot. It all adds up.
2.) In regards to the MWS specifically, no doubt I would prefer to have the longer gas system on the Rock 5R SS 18" model, every little bit of recoil reduction on these .308 gas guns really matters for myself. With that said, any shooter can overcome any amt. of recoil with technique, and concentration, but it does suck to have to work that much harder every single pull of the trigger. So many folks think that certain levels of recoil on certain firearms can't ever be successfully managed, and I believe just the opposite as my main defensive handgun is a USP40c, and a P2000SK in .357sig(absolute f**king hand canon) for my BUG piece. If I had to do it all over again though, I'd prob. have learned with 9mm and gone with HK 9mm handguns.
Damn you and 40ARpent getting brand new Rock 5R SS fine china....I feel left out now, good thing right after I hit submit on this reply, I emailing my pal @ LMT;) Can't wait to hear some reports from you guys with those new awesome barrels. One can only imagine what they will do when the 16" CL is capable of what it is.
ETA: RD62....if you decide to go direct through LMT which really gives one the ultimate security in terms of knowing their gonna receive exactly what they paid for, PM and I will give you some contact info. You can indeed order a MWS direct through LMT with any barrel that is currently in the barrel lineup avail. for purchase at this time(u.s. civilians that is)
old grunt usmc
01-16-12, 10:27
Thanks,Trident for all the info.I have a LMT CQB 16" MRP and love it !! I have not had the chance to put many rds through it yet but my nephew just got back from his 2nd tour in afghanistan (he's in the MARINES) and we plan on having some fun. I thank all of you for all you do for M4CARBINE.NET and the U.S.A. SEMPER FIDELIS !!!!
It's my pleasure brother, I appreciate your nephews service very much...and he certainly deserves some quality trigger time with a MRP when he gets back home:p
It's also great to hear from another very happy MRP user, any man that owns a MRP is a friend of mine for sure. After putting almost 500rds on this MWS now, the MRPs feel heavenly to shoot.....they just "kiss" off your shoulder so nicely. The MWS donkey punches off my shoulder:D
ETA: RD62....if you decide to go direct through LMT which really gives one the ultimate security in terms of knowing their gonna receive exactly what they paid for, PM and I will give you some contact info. You can indeed order a MWS direct through LMT with any barrel that is currently in the barrel lineup avail. for purchase at this time(u.s. civilians that is)
I'll take you up on that sometime after tax time Trident.
Thanks!
Damn you and 40ARpent getting brand new Rock 5R SS fine china....
Damn me nothing....at least you're out shooting your MWS, which is much more than I can say for myself. :mad: And now with work behind me, it'll be at least another couple weeks before I can fire the first round through the Rock 5R SS....I'll be late season duck hunting this coming weekend.
I really wish I had your new barrel sitting already in front of me, beyond just wanting it for my long term game plan with this particular MWS, I would have countless hours of pure fun taking both the 16" CL and 16" SST to the range, and extensively comparing them against one another in order to satisfy the enormous curiosity I have now in regards to this particular comparison. I really hope that the Rock 5R SST will be significantly more accurate in terms of quantifiable differences in groups sizes, however that is one helluva tall order I'm finding out. You have one heck of a fun project ahead of you when ever you have the time.
I guess wading out in freezing swamp waters, and pretending like your a duck tickles your fancy more than letting that badass MWS of yours wow you at the range:D
I would like to see if you ever have the time a great comparative pic depicting the 16" CL side by side with the 16" SST. Is there any contouring difference b/t the two...if not, then the pic won't really be necessary.
Lastly, I've been meaning to get your opinion on running your NXS 2.5-10x24 on your MWS. I have never used an optic anywhere close to as much as I have this particular optic. It spent loads of time on the MRP Recce in which I believe it's perfect for and it was org. bought for, then it's been used to shoot steel @ 600-775yds on several occasions with my MRP CQB 10.5", and now it's being extensively used on top of a .308 MWS in precision capacities. Its my all time favorite optic for ARs, and I still don't think anybody has truly matched what it does in such a small, compact package, however it's SO unforgiving at 10x. I'm certainly used to it by now after a few years, but every time out it reminds me of that unforgiving nature when using it at 10x...be it either 100yd accuracy/ammo evals, or ringing steel out to 900yds on the MRP Recce.
I wouldn't sell it for a million bucks now that its a piece of unobtainium. I also love the fact that it's been used so much by the Seals to dirt nap bad guys
I guess wading out in freezing swamp waters, and pretending like your a duck tickles your fancy more than letting that badass MWS of yours wow you at the range
Born and raised in the swamps of deep southeast Louisiana, it's in my blood...what more can I say? ;)
I would like to see if you ever have the time a great comparative pic depicting the 16" CL side by side with the 16" SST. Is there any contouring difference b/t the two...if not, then the pic won't really be necessary.
I'll give that my best shot. My photog skills suck, so I may have to resort to a mic and written text. LOL
Lastly, I've been meaning to get your opinion on running your NXS 2.5-10x24 on your MWS.....SO unforgiving at 10x....
Truth be told, at my level of inexperience, I'd probably be better served with a lesser optic. No way in hell I'm getting rid of it, but I really jumped into the deep end with this scope, and have a steep learning curve ahead of me.
Dirtyboy333
01-17-12, 12:07
What do you guys mean by "unforging"? Are you talking about the eye relief??? I've never used one I'm just an interested newbie.
Well folks, I popped the MWS's cherry in terms of LR steel shooting this afternoon. The problem was that I had three things that I have been really wanting for some time all happen at the same time...so due to my extreme excitement level, I hardly could do anything but grin ear to ear.
1. I finally found someone to share this awesome activity and sport with, which will facilitate so much more that I/we can do in terms of pushing the limits of our rifles, and our shooting abilities. While my new pal isn't an AR guy yet at least, he is one helluva shooter, and extremely knowledgeable on precision LR shooting. He just goes about it with high dollar bolt rifles, whereas I go about it with MRPs and MWSs. I think both of us bringing something different to the table will ultimately be a good thing as I will be exposed to tactical LR bolt rifles, and he will be exposed to LR precision based AR rifles.
2. After 2yrs + of dreaming not only about owning a MWS, but specifically shooting the MWS at the extreme edges of the AR .308 performance envelope, I finally made it all a reality today. Ultimately I will transition into the 6.5cm MWS true blue LR rifle, however today was the official start in my long range odyssey with this rifle. This has been greatly expedited and enhanced by the third thing that came together on this day for me.
3. A perfectly tailored long range locale with distances up to 1300-1400yds. While I love my other LR locale due to it's picturesque views, it just doesn't have a perfect shooting lane for distances past 1000yds. More over, the shooting lanes are in wide open terrain with no shelter from wind. This new range with a small amt. of work on our part in terms of setting up leveled firing positions, and then bringing in a few new steel target setups for various distances, will yield damn near the perfect locale in which to explore LR precision with our rifles.
I can't believe I even landed some rounds outta the 35 or so that I shot given how jacked up I was at just having this whole setup come together all at once. We also were shooting on way to extreme of a gradient as both of us had one of our legs kicked literally 90 degrees into the hill's slope as our shooting mats were sliding down the damn slope. We won't ever be doing this again, but hell...it was a great learning experience for sure.
So we each only fired about 30-35rds. a piece, and you guys already know the specs on my rifle, but here on the specs on the straight laser beam bolt I was shooting next too:
Remington 700 Action(Blueprinted/Trued by Coleman Rifles)
Krieger 26" 5R SS .308 w/ a #17 contour
HS Precision stock/M24 Vertical Grip w/ adjust LOP and Cheek Weld.
Leupy Mark 4 8.5-25x50 w/ Vortex Cant bubble level, Base and rings are Leupy as well.
Harris bipod
And here are our two rifles playing nicely alongside one another:)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03334-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03329-1.jpg
Youtube video from this afternoons session...did I mention that we had almost perfect conditions for capturing bullet trace, we even captured a few frames of the elusive bullet glint.
Having fun with some .308s on LR steel....MWS 16" CL and a Rem 700 w. Krieger 5R 26" SS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLkGv-vZtfw&feature=youtube_gdata)
Dirtyboy333
01-19-12, 01:30
Im probably hallucinating but in that last picture it looks like your MWS has a UBR on it. Awesome range, day and rifles!!! I'm going to wiki to look up what "bullet glint" is.:p
Nevermind. I see that your stretch MRP is on the left and MWS on the right.
What do you guys mean by "unforging"? Are you talking about the eye relief??? I've never used one I'm just an interested newbie.
I missed this question previously, and I'll defer to Trident for a more "expert" explanation, but yes, for me the most "unforgiving" aspect of the scope is its narrow range of eye relief at 10X. If I am not totally locked in with a perfectly positioned cheek weld, I ain't gonna hit shit. LOL
Dirtyboy333
01-23-12, 12:08
I missed this question previously, and I'll defer to Trident for a more "expert" explanation, but yes, for me the most "unforgiving" aspect of the scope is its narrow range of eye relief at 10X. If I am not totally locked in with a perfectly positioned cheek weld, I ain't gonna hit shit. LOL
Oh ok....I see what you mean. Thanks for the reply
Awesome stuff Trident!! I am glad to see that the MWS can reach out there. Thanks again for all of the info in this thread, I have got some work to do!:D:p
My pleasure duece71:)
40Arpent already nailed the NF question.
Headed back out tomorrow, we'll be launching them between 800-1000yds.
Trident,
Looking forward to your report after tomorrow.
Is that a power line easement or something?
In regards to the 2.5-10 NXS. It has obviously been working to good effect on the MWS. Do you plan to continue to utilize it in that role or are you planning to move to a different scope and if so what? I have been thinking of the 3.5-15x50 NXS (not that I even have the rifle yet).
Thanks!
Yep that's PL easement.
In regards to optics....I'm holding off on picking up a NXS 3.5 F1 a little while longer while I currently debate getting a March Tactical 2.5-25x42 or 3-24x42 FFP. The NXS F1 will be much more forgiving, however the allure of March's incredible magnification range and compact size, along with the clarity of their glass has me very tempted.
jonconsiglio
01-23-12, 21:31
Yep that's PL easement.
In regards to optics....I'm holding off on picking up a NXS 3.5 F1 a little while longer while I currently debate getting a March Tactical 2.5-25x42 or 3-24x42 FFP. The NXS F1 will be much more forgiving, however the allure of March's incredible magnification range and compact size, along with the clarity of their glass has me very tempted.
Try to get your hands on a 25x and get some rounds through it at distance, if you haven't already. I have a S&B 5-25x56 and it's too much for my needs, and I'm shooting Barretts in 338 and 50 on a 2,000 yard range. Though I don't typically shoot at 2,000.
Just wanted to give you a head's up in case you haven't gotten to shoot with one yet. I definitely prefer the 4-16.
I have a very similar set up to Tridents with a NightForce 2.5-10x32 with a NP-R2 reticle. I just ordered a 20" Stainless 5R barrel and I'm wondering if anyone has done any accuracy testing on various ammo?
I'lll post some photos after I get the barrel in and installed.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Hey Jon, thanks for the feedback on the optics topic....I think your right as I haven't been behind a 25x or greater that much at all, and ultimately I believe a 15x will be plenty of max magnification for my purposes which will be capped off at about 1500yds with a 6.5cm/.260rem configuration.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03409-1.jpg
Nothing like this type of shooting, it will ruin you for sure.
I had a rough start due to the two reasons/takeaways from the day, however with the help of a truly exceptional spotter/coach I got this rifle perfectly doped at 800yds this afternoon with a proper type of ammo, and the results were really something else to see. I can't thank my new shooting pal enough for the help and contribution he has already given to me thus far, and what a difference he makes when shooting beside me. The video will speak the rest of my thoughts on today's session:cool:
1.) You can't escape your bullet's B.C. once you reach certain long ranges,...just because a load Shoots well at 100-500yds sub moa groups, doesn't mean it will hold all the way out.
2.) Learn how to deal with LR mirage effects.
Perhaps the best LR footage I've gotten to date....crystal clear bullet trace with lots of bullet glint frames, and the best BANG..............................................DINGs yet.
LMT MWS w/ 16" CL on Steel @ 800yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KXS8i8tFQI&feature=youtube_gdata)
Trident,
In regards to the 2.5-10 NXS. It has obviously been working to good effect on the MWS. Do you plan to continue to utilize it in that role or are you planning to move to a different scope and if so what? I have been thinking of the 3.5-15x50 NXS (not that I even have the rifle yet).
Thanks!
I am currently running the 2.5-10 NF MIL MIL on my MWS, I like it quite a bit. I would prefer the 3.5-15x56 though. 15 is better for LR the HS turrets are more enjoyable to dial up and I prefer to have a focus knob. I may put the 2.5 on my SPR and a larger scope on my MWS. I might try the Bushnell 3-12 FFP 30mm tube scope. Great price and good features.
If you gunna be a bear, be a grizzly. Go big for the MWS. IT DESERVES the glass. I want an 18 SS barrel but I just bought..........and me and Mark have plenty to work on with new cans, win mag loading BS.
Trident,
What did you put on your rifle components to make the finish into that black high gloss. I know LMTs do not come with this finish. Almost looked like you dipped the whole rifle in oil.
porider....I think it has to do with the particular way I have the camera angled, and the amount of natural filtered light that I like to snap pics under.
First attempt at 1k+....specifically 1038yds
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03447-1.jpg
Here is the steel afterwards...if you'll note my hits are the smaller ones, my pals with the Krieger 26" barrel and superformance 168gr. ammo are the larger ones..
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03456-1.jpg
Here are some fragments recovered from that distance...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03460-1.jpg
The ballistics at this distance are simply incredible. Here is the ballastic chart for the load I was using today which was Hornady 168gr. Amax.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03453-1.jpg
LMT MWS 16" CL/Rem 700 w. Krieger 26" @ 1038yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQtP8B03XuM&feature=youtube_gdata)
Dirtyboy333
02-02-12, 23:57
Dude, that is just badass beyond words.....I'm going to range 1k yards tomorrow even if I have to buy a new rangefinder and then return it when i'm done...:D just kidding
Thanks friend-o....Next time the footage should be significantly better due to the fact that my bullet trace/trajectory was way above the 25x 1080p cam's FOV.
The only footage that we captured in the bullet trace was some superformance 150gr. SSTs being launched outta my friend's 26" Krieger. Even his superformance 168gr. amax rounds had too much drop/trajectory to capture. Will have to put the target at the bottom of the picture from now on out.
Your gonna love your MWS out at 1000yds....it kinda ruins you in terms of having fun shooting various other ways;)
Trident, very nice shooting buddy. Those Amax bullets are real nice. Mark and I have shot some of our best groups with the 178's. I dig the idea of doing all this with a 16' CL BARREL.
Very impressive.
Thanks pappa, I'd love to get a hold of some of those 178gr. Amaxs if only I could reload myself. I've got a at least 600-700 pieces of once fired nothing but premium brass waiting to be reloaded. Let me know how those 178s work out at 1k when you guys get a chance. So nice to compare notes with others who own MWSs and shoot to 1k with them:cool:
Today's session had pretty terrible weather conditions in regards to amt. of sunlight and heavy winds at both the muzzle and the target....so it canceled out all bang..........ding noises, as well as being able to capture any bullet trace. Nonetheless I thought I would share the footage with those who care to watch it.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03598-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03595-1.jpg
I did nail two 5" x 10" water jugs @ 994yds after banging a little steel...
LMT MWS 16" CL @ 994yds.....steel/jugs of water (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCfIjl7O8R8&feature=youtube_gdata)
Once again some nice hits. We made some cheap wind flags using $2.00 wood stakes, string and orange duct tape. They help a lot.
That wind kicks our ass. In the middle of the dessert, it changes constantly. Fun to watch and shoot though. I really like how your shots are against a hill, that really helps read your misses. Way too often, we miss, watch the trace, see the desert sand splash, and still can't tell where we missed. Its all pert of the fun.
Send me 50 or 100 pieces of brass, some 178 AMAx's/ and Mark said he would work the magic for you. I'll sponsor the powder. Send me pm if you want some laser beams. Markus is wicked good at rollin.
Dirtyboy333
02-14-12, 01:35
Awesome Trident. Man I ordered that 17"x30" CMP steel because i was very concerned i wouldn't be able to hit my 12"x20" (same target in your video) at 1k but you don't seem to have any problem with it. Thats amazing...At least I'll have something a little more forgiving for my first LR experience.
Most likely I'll be shooting 1k this week. I haven't had much time to work up loads so I'm just going to stick with the load that has shot the best so far (even if it was only @100 yards) which is 43.9 Varget, 175 SMK. The problem is that I don't have a chrony so i have no idea what the velocity of this load is and therefor I cant plug it into any ballistics calculator. I'm such a newb to "doping the scope" etc. Does anyone have a ballpark figure of elevation (in MOA) I should be adjusting my scope with 175 SMK's if I'm sighted in at 100 yards? I just need something to get me near the target. Thanks
Pappa, do you think 43.9 Varget is hot enough for 1k shooting or do you think I would substantially benefit from bumping it up to 44.5 or so? Have you ever shot loads that light at 1k?
Once again some nice hits. We made some cheap wind flags using $2.00 wood stakes, string and orange duct tape. They help a lot.
That wind kicks our ass. In the middle of the dessert, it changes constantly. Fun to watch and shoot though. I really like how your shots are against a hill, that really helps read your misses. Way too often, we miss, watch the trace, see the desert sand splash, and still can't tell where we missed. Its all pert of the fun.
Send me 50 or 100 pieces of brass, some 178 AMAx's/ and Mark said he would work the magic for you. I'll sponsor the powder. Send me pm if you want some laser beams. Markus is wicked good at rollin.
Freaking awesome brother....I'll certainly take you gents up on that offer, I'll send you guys 200 pieces of brass and a box or two of the 178gr amaxs. You guys keep 100 pieces of the brass for your trouble and send me 100 rounds of laser beam material:cool: Once I pick up the bullets, I'll shoot you a PM. Again, thanks for such a fantastic offer. I'll also be sure to send a pre-paid UPS shipping label.
Great tip on the flags....me and my shooting pal have been meaning to do just that since day 1 out there. We need to do that asap. We have some wicked mirage out there though that allows us to read the wind pretty well. The problem is as you already know is that the wind is the killer at 1k......but even more of a killer is having totally different winds at both the muzzle and then at the 1k steel target. It's certainly a science that I've yet to master....the most frustrating part of it is the total ON/OFF effect that it has as well. If it would just blow constantly, We'd be all good.
I agree that having an area that allows nice splashes is certainly advantageous for what were trying to do. That's why we lowered the target setup down that hill a bit...the first time out there it was at the crest of that hill, so when we went high, we couldn't get any kinda feedback.
Awesome Trident. Man I ordered that 17"x30" CMP steel because i was very concerned i wouldn't be able to hit my 12"x20" (same target in your video) at 1k but you don't seem to have any problem with it. Thats amazing...At least I'll have something a little more forgiving for my first LR experience.
Most likely I'll be shooting 1k this week. I haven't had much time to work up loads so I'm just going to stick with the load that has shot the best so far (even if it was only @100 yards) which is 43.9 Varget, 175 SMK. The problem is that I don't have a chrony so i have no idea what the velocity of this load is and therefor I cant plug it into any ballistics calculator. I'm such a newb to "doping the scope" etc. Does anyone have a ballpark figure of elevation (in MOA) I should be adjusting my scope with 175 SMK's if I'm sighted in at 100 yards? I just need something to get me near the target. Thanks
Pappa, do you think 43.9 Varget is hot enough for 1k shooting or do you think I would substantially benefit from bumping it up to 44.5 or so? Have you ever shot loads that light at 1k?
Here ya go pal, this should get you close....this is using BH's gold 175gr. SMK through a MWS 16" CL
Elevation: 736ft.
Temp: 55 F
Wind: 5mph
Zero: 100yds
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03601-1.jpg
Great write up. I'm absolutely lusting over the Atlas bipod but I'm going to need to slap together a bolt gun to put it on first. $$$
Thanks pal, I really can't say enough positive things about that Atlas V8....if you'll note in the videos above during the 1x footage you can really see how that Atlas with the forward leg positioning actually dips the rifle straight down and then returns it almost to the exact same positioning prior to firing.
I'm using a little "trick" I've developed by attaching a small "dowel" rod at the end of my shooting mat which allows me to load the bipod off of. I highly recommend doing this for anyone who shoots LR prone off a mat.
Dirtyboy333
02-14-12, 05:04
Damn, thanks for the chart brother. Under "come up clicks" is that for 1/4th MOA or Mils? I guess I could just take the 460 inches drop and divide it by 10 (for 1,000 yards) which would give me 46 MOA. Does that sound right? oh, actually that would give me 184 clicks which is damn close to the 176 listed. So it seems the "come up clicks" are listed in 1/4th MOA and maybe it's a little different because it's the true MOA measurement instead of using 100 yards as MOA.
This could be way off as i've never used these charts before and even when I shot @555 yards I just guesstimated a holdover.:p
Awesome Trident......You never fail to impress!
I'm working on getting a 1,000 yd place to shoot. Hopefully soon.
Thanks pappa, I'd love to get a hold of some of those 178gr. Amaxs if only I could reload myself. I've got a at least 600-700 pieces of once fired nothing but premium brass waiting to be reloaded. Let me know how those 178s work out at 1k when you guys get a chance. So nice to compare notes with others who own MWSs and shoot to 1k with them:cool:
Today's session had pretty terrible weather conditions in regards to amt. of sunlight and heavy winds at both the muzzle and the target....so it canceled out all bang..........ding noises, as well as being able to capture any bullet trace. Nonetheless I thought I would share the footage with those who care to watch it.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03598-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03595-1.jpg
I did nail two 5" x 10" water jugs @ 994yds after banging a little steel...
LMT MWS 16" CL @ 994yds.....steel/jugs of water (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCfIjl7O8R8&feature=youtube_gdata)
Can you say green with envy? Nice shooting.
Dirtyboy333
02-14-12, 23:07
Trident, well I finally got to push my MWS past 100 yards. I went out today in some of the nastiest weather this year. There wasn't much wind but it was raining hard on top of the snow and ice that was already on the ground. All of it was melting and it was so soggy/muddy that I couldn't make it up the hill to my shooting area in my 4WD. I had to hike it :rolleyes: The blue tarp that I shot from last summer was covered in mud and ice so I just went prone on the soggy ground. Needless to say, I was covered in mud and soaking wet.:p
Anyway, I'm not quite set up for the 1k range so the most i could get today was 556 yards on the 12"x20" CMP steel. I used your chart posted above to gestimate my adjustments but since i was shooting 165's today I subtracted a few clicks. Well I got very lucky considering I got a hit on the 1st shot:p. After that it just got boringly easy. It was interesting to see how the .308 "throws" the steel around compared to 5.56. There's no comparison.
The best part of the day was seeing my new MWS take on pouring rain, mud all over, slush and snow from the rounds that i dropped and it just kept on chugging. I wish i would've got a pic of it before i wiped it down:(. She was dirty.
Anyway, it was a very uneventful yet still fun day at the range. I finally got to shoot prone and I think I did a decent job loading the pod for the 1st time since I could see my shots hit. The only problem I had was my scope fogging up with my breath.
I can already see that 556 yards isnt enough for this beast:)
ETA: I forgot to mention that i fired some round at dusk (target was barely visible) and the fireball that shot out the left and right side of the Surefire break was pretty neat even though it's not a good trait to have.
Thanks for the kind words Scoby and Duece.....your gonna love shooting at 1k Scoby, it's right up your alley:)
Fantastic report Dirtyboy...and my apologies about not stipulating what the clicks represented. You already figured out though as each click = 1/4th MOA.
I'd agree that the difference b/t .223 and .308 on steel is night and day....I finally had to use red loctite on my bolt/hook attachment. I'd also agree that it's boringly easy to put the rounds on target at 500-600yds. That will certainly change at 800-1000yds;) Keep us updated on your quest towards the 1k mark.
Thanks for the kind words Scoby and Duece.....your gonna love shooting at 1k Scoby, it's right up your alley:)
Fantastic report Dirtyboy...and my apologies about not stipulating what the clicks represented. You already figured out though as each click = 1/4th MOA.
I'd agree that the difference b/t .223 and .308 on steel is night and day....I finally had to use red loctite on my bolt/hook attachment. I'd also agree that it's boringly easy to put the rounds on target at 500-600yds. That will certainly change at 800-1000yds;) Keep us updated on your quest towards the 1k mark.
I take it you have MOA turrets on your NF?? I have the MIL dot recticle on my NF 2.5-10x32 and am considering getting NF to swap out my turrets for MIL. I forgot to ask what recticle you are using so I suppose it is moot to ask if you are going to change them as well.
I changed one of my NF scopes to MIL MIL with zero stop. I was running both, but when you start getting past 500 yards, MOA slows you down. Many people think in terms of MIL is easier. I am still learning but I do prefer it.
Its quite spendy to get it done.
Dirtyboy/Deuce/Trident/Pappabear,
How many of you are running FFP optics? Or SFP optics?
I saw that Nightforce now has FFP optics. I don't recall them having them a while back, but the FFP models that they now offer are quite a bit more than the SFP models. Not that the SFP models were cheap to begin with.
I currently have a Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 on my bolt gun. It's my first and currently only optic, so that's what I'm learning on.
I have both. And I have a Bushnell FFP Optic that is GREAT for the coin. They are introducing more each day. They have a new line 34mm tubes that are top notch. I have a 24X scope on my LMT, FFP with Green Illum. Its bad ass and half the coin.
On most scopes, Going Mil mil cost more, FFP cost more and Illum cost more. So the Bushnell is a steal IMHO.
I have several NF and several Bushy's.
I take it you have MOA turrets on your NF?? I have the MIL dot recticle on my NF 2.5-10x32 and am considering getting NF to swap out my turrets for MIL. I forgot to ask what recticle you are using so I suppose it is moot to ask if you are going to change them as well.
In my 2.5-10x24 I have the compact mil dot ret...and MOA turrets. While it's certainly not ideal, I bought this optic at my local funstore and it was the last 2.5-10x24 that they would ever see according to the NF rep. For that matter it was one of the last 2.5-10x24s that the civilian world would ever see...as now they are rarer than hen's teeth.
drck1000....my NXS compacts are SFP, and it doesn't bother me in the least as when I use my holdovers and such at distance, I'm always at 10x. If they had higher magnification than just 10x than it might be a problem...for example shooting with wicked mirage conditions meaning that I would want to power down from say 15x, 20x, or 25x in order to alleviate some of the mirage effects.
I have two goals with this particular MWS:
1.) Create a MWS config. that is....(which is what I'm currently doing and nearing the end of.)
a. sub moa capable
b. 1000yd capable
c. sub 12lbs in weight
2.) Create a MWS config. that is dedicated for precision and LR shooting....upcoming goal for this MWS.
This will include....
a. Magpul UBR stock and slash's heavy buffer
b. Nightforce NXS F1 3.5-15x-50 with mil/mil and zerostop
c. 20" 5R SS 6.5cm barrel / 16" or 18" 5R SS .308 barrel
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03606-1.jpg
Dirtyboy333
02-15-12, 20:58
Dirtyboy/Deuce/Trident/Pappabear,
How many of you are running FFP optics? Or SFP optics?
I saw that Nightforce now has FFP optics. I don't recall them having them a while back, but the FFP models that they now offer are quite a bit more than the SFP models. Not that the SFP models were cheap to begin with.
I currently have a Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 on my bolt gun. It's my first and currently only optic, so that's what I'm learning on.
I'm using a SFP as well. I've never used a FFP and i'm sure they're great. I've only had my MWS to 556 yards so far but ive had no problems. Mine is a Sightron SIII 6-24x50. I went with this scope because I kept reading how great the glass was for a scope in its price range and I must say i'm not disappointed. It has the newer MOA-2 reticle and I think I'm going to like it at longer ranges. I'm not a member of LRH.com, 6mmBR.com or opticstalk but i've read a bunch on those sites and alot was mentioned about LR and F class competitors using these scopes and liking them. The adjustments are extremely crisp but they do move too easily. I knocked them off zero just carrying the gun on my back with a sling yesterday. It wasnt that hard to fix though.
I'm interested to hear your opinions on your PST because for 2weeks I was pondering your exact scope and the SIII back and forth. I really wanted your PST because I didnt like the length and I didnt think I would need the 24x of the SIII. The only deciding factor that influenced me to go with the SIII is the reports of so-so glass on the PST. I know glass supposedly isnt a big deal on tactical scopes but I place more weight on it then most I think considering its my most important trait of a scope. So whats your opinions on that PST? PM bc i dont want to derail this thread.
I changed one of my NF scopes to MIL MIL with zero stop. I was running both, but when you start getting past 500 yards, MOA slows you down. Many people think in terms of MIL is easier. I am still learning but I do prefer it.
Its quite spendy to get it done.
A little vague, care to elaborate before I shell out "quite spendy"?
Thanks.
Here ya go pal....all prices are on the Factory Service-Conversion Form:
http://nightforceoptics.com/SERVICE-REPAIR_FORMS/NFO_FactoryService-Conversion--RMA__TLE_03Jan2012.pdf
A little vague, care to elaborate before I shell out "quite spendy"?
Thanks.
I couldn't remember , or maybe I tried to forget :D
And I didn't want to give bad numbers. So according to Tridents attached, and my poor memory, it was $350 plus $30 in shipping.
I got the scope on trade so it didn't hurt too bad. And now its perfecto.
Dirtyboy333
02-16-12, 05:42
So i just got done cleaning my MWS for the 1st time and man that was easy. As odd as it may be this was the 1st time i've cleaned a chrome bore and/or chrome BCG (never cleaned my DD and my 1st AR is unlined). Cleaning the chrome parts was almost effortless and the bore took about 1/3rd of the swabs as my unlined bore. I pulled the barrel out so the chamber was a breeze as well.
Does anyone have any tips on taking the 1/16th hex screw out of the bolt catch? I've snapped 2 allen wrenches already and the thing isn't budging. I cant believe how tight this thing is:eek: I noticed that with the mag out the bolt catch just flips up and down freely. I dont think it was like this before I shot yesterday but it could have been. Isn't it supposed to have a spring behind the lower part of it making sure the catch is disengaged when there's no mag or a loaded mag in place (like an AR15)? I think the spring may be caught on something in there because if i depress the lower half of the catch with some force i can feel a little "spring" reistence. It shouldn't cause the bolt to lock back prematurely unless i'm shooting upside down:p or something so I'm not that worried about it.
Oh I can't wait till I move back to TX in Sept.......The MWS is the first rifle I am buying when I get back.......I keep reading this tread and Love to hear how accurate thay are.
Keep this thread going.........
I think today's range report, and certainly the footage should redeem my last report's footage.
We knew we would be launching into extremely high winds for our neck of the woods today, but took the opportunity to put up some helium balloons at different intervals, and try our best to learn some more on wind reads. We brought in our steel to 800yds, and faced 17-22mph wind continuously while shooting. I wanted to really try and hone in my bullet trace footage as well, and I'm happy with how that went. The bang..............dings thankfully returned as well.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03660-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03654-1.jpg
I shot some Barnes Vortx 150gr. TTSX @ 800yds for the fun of it to see if I could recover a round after it fully expanded on the steel...and I brought home a cool souvenir for sure:cool:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03669-1.jpg
The MRP SPR was taken out today to further test the new ALG ACT trigger....logged quite a bit of rounds on it at 600yds + on steel. I'm uploading that footage after the .308 stuff. The ACT trigger is definitely not your everyday milspec single stager:)
Youtube footage....
High winds & .308s....LMT MWS / Rem 700 @ 800yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNQT7LsdQk&feature=youtube_gdata)
Cool..dig the sigs and jug
Positive Displacement
02-23-12, 06:46
Hi gents, I just can't refrain from sharing my excitement over the first range report with the new MWS .308..and figured the MRP SPR 5.56 might as well tag along. Since this is about .308 and 5.56 ARs, I hope AR GD was the best place for it.
Let me start out saying that besides stretching ARs out at long ranges on steel, I really enjoy shooting precision groupings which I believe is one of the best tools for examining a rifle's accuracy and precision. My normal accuracy evaluations consist of shooting multiple(2-4) groups of 10 rounds a piece, no called flyers, no cherry picking. I shoot from the prone position, supported in the rear, and a bipod up front. Distance is 100yds.
Conditions present over the 3 hrs(30min spent referring a cpl. of new AR owners to M4C:)) I spent during the range session were as follows:
TEMP: 42-47 degrees F
Wind: N @ 6-8mph
Humidity: 43%
Pressure: 30.36 <---
Some pics of the setup and rifles used during the session:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02522-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02523-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02525-1.jpg
Atlas V8 VS. Harris HBRMS...will revisit this at the end.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC02526-1.jpg
The ARs used:
LMT MWS....Rock 16" CL .308 1/10....NXSc 2.5-10x24....KAC 2stage Match trigger...ATLAS V8 Bipod
LMT MRP SPR....Rock 18" 5R SS 5.56 1/7...NXSc 2.5-10x32...GA SD-E.....Harris HBRMS Bipod
Trident, you covered everything exceptionally well in your range report, I read everything again and googled the Atlas V8. It's on my list as well as the LMT MWS .308. Very nice setup and I'm sure you're enjoying the hell outta it!
Ultra nice rigs Buddy. Always good to see em in action.
Man, I feel bad for not being a part of this from the beginning Brother. Glad to see you finally got your MWS and it took me a few hours to get through all the posts.
Congrats on the new (old now) Boomstick..
Thanks guys for the kind words:)
Send me 50 or 100 pieces of brass, some 178 AMAx's/ and Mark said he would work the magic for you. I'll sponsor the powder. Send me pm if you want some laser beams. Markus is wicked good at rollin.
So today I received a box of the Hornady 178gr. AMAX (100ct.) to send to you guys, and just wanted to see if there was one type of once fired brass of mine better than the other. I got quite a bit of 4 main types.....
The below are ranked from the most abundant to the least:
1.) Hornady .308 Match (labeled: Hornady .308 WIN Match)
2.) Federal Premium brass (labeled: .308 WIN FC)
3.) Winchester Supreme brass (labeled: Winchester .308 WIN)
4.) Hornady .308 Match (labeled: Hornady .308 Match...with silver looking primers)
Various others in less qty. include 2 more types of Federal...one labeled: FC 11 (FGMM 7.62 175gr. SMK IIrc), and then the FC M1A 7.62 ( Federal M1A 168gr. SMK).
At any rate, if Mark or you have an opinion on which brass I should send you guys for these rounds(also the same amt. of brass for you guys to hang on to), just let me know and that's what I'll send.
1300yds or bust with these....little tribute to the Brits:cool:
Send the Federal first and horn match 2 nd choice. One thing to consider, when you shoot them, don't mix them for groups. They can shoot different.
Just an FYI, you can run the AMAX BULLETS in your gas gun, but they Will not fit the mag. They don't even fit our rm700's. You will have to load each shot. Not a big issue, just an FYI.
I have trimmed the red nose off to make them fit if you really want.
PB
Dirtyboy333
02-27-12, 10:37
Just an FYI, you can run the AMAX BULLETS in your gas gun, but they not fit the mag. They don't even fit our rm700's. You will have to load each shot. Not a big issue, just an FYI.
I have trimmed the red nose off to make them fit if you really want.
Damn im glad an email popped up in my inbox from your reply just now.....I was in the process of ordering 175 SMK's and 178 AMAX from Midway. Think I'm just gonna stick with the SMK's now. Thanks for the info
The AMAX bullets shoot lights out. Trident, I can swop a few for you if you want. To give you some of both. That way you could try SMK's and AMX. Just let us know.
Dirtyboy333
02-27-12, 11:06
The AMAX bullets shoot lights out. Trident, I can swop a few for you if you want. To give you some of both. That way you could try SMK's and AMX. Just let us know.
Ok....well i ordered both anyway. I wanted to try something else besides SMK's bc thats all I have used in my MWS.
Just an FYI, you can run the AMAX BULLETS in your gas gun, but they Will not fit the mag. They don't even fit our rm700's. You will have to load each shot. Not a big issue, just an FYI.
I have trimmed the red nose off to make them fit if you really want.
PB
That sucks, I didn't think that would be an issue....I'd shoot bolts if I was into hand feeding singles. Maybe I'll pick up some 175gr. SMKs to send your way, at any rate I really appreciate the offer:)
Looking for a weather window over the next cpl. of days to do my next project that I've been planning for sometime now. Hopefully unlike anything you've every seen.
Here's a small teaser:p
Looking for a weather window over the next cpl. of days to do my next project that I've been planning for sometime now. Hopefully unlike anything you've every seen.
Here's a small teaser:p
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03687-1.jpg
Niiice!!! Really looking forward to this!
That sucks, I didn't think that would be an issue....I'd shoot bolts if I was into hand feeding singles. Maybe I'll pick up some 175gr. SMKs to send your way, at any rate I really appreciate the offer:)
Looking for a weather window over the next cpl. of days to do my next project that I've been planning for sometime now. Hopefully unlike anything you've every seen.
Here's a small teaser:p
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03687-1.jpg
I can feel a night shoot coming! Trident, if you want, just send those AMAX bullets and I will trade them out for you.
We try to keep 500 , give or take 1000, on stand by. You will not be disappointed.
Hopefully I won't disappoint you guys:) PB...your mighty kind, and once I get a box of the 175's, it's on like donkey kong.
I wanted to do a long range steel night shoot for a yr. or two now, it's so much more peaceful at night, and the sounds will carry amazingly clear and loud.
One more teaser, exploding glow water:cool:
Dirtyboy333
02-28-12, 21:22
Well i finally got to try out my awesome 1k yard range!!! I didnt get nearly the hit rate as you Trident (even with a bigger steel target) but it only took 7 shots to get on target without a spotter or knowing my load velocity.
Hearing those rings at 1k sure is addicting!!!:p
I'm shooting off of an old makeshift folding kitchen table (as seen in the video) and the whole time i'm shooting my reticle is wobbling left and right very quickly and i'm just anticipating when it gets to the center of the target. I wasn't thinking it would be a big deal since the "wobble" doesn't quite move the reticle off the edges of the target but i really dont know what kind of effect it's having. It's interesting though because all my misses are either left or right (within 3 feet of the target) with no pattern (randomly hits left or right). This seems like something the "wobble" may be able to cause.:confused: My best was 6 hits of 10 shots but that wasn't the usual.
Anyway, i had a TON of fun for my 1st time.:D When i look across with the naked eye i just cant believe i'm making hits or even missing by the small amount that I am.
BTW: I just got some FGMM 175's and Prvi match 175's in the mail today. I've had good results with .223 Prvi but i've read some bad reviews on their 308 so I decided to try some for myself. BAD idea.....This ammo shot so badly at 100 yards that I thought I somehow damaged my barrel from cleaning it the other night ;). I was literally getting 4-5 MOA 5 shot groups. Next I shot the FGMM and my confidence was instantly restored with easy MOA accuracy. Although, I don't feel they're as accurate as my handloads.:p
Nice job DirtyBoy!
Trident... No way you'll dissapoint... Exploding glow water at night.. is an absolute win!!! Looking forward to the pics!! video? :)
^^I appreciate your confidence, however I've been known to screw some shit up in the past:D^^ I'm dying to do this, and the weather just sucks.
Dirtyboy, post up one or both of those videos you sent me that put such a big smile on my face earlier....those really made my night:) Great report, keep em' coming.
I knew you would have great success at that!
eta..."It's interesting though because all my misses are either left or right (within 3 feet of the target) with no pattern (randomly hits left or right)."
I call that "dancing" around the target....assuming your doped/holding correctly this could be reflective of flight instability caused by the bullet passing through the transonic region. Typically with the 175gr. SMK, you can remain stable though. The 168gr. SMKs go stranger on you once they enter transonic flight.
Dirtyboy333
02-29-12, 01:47
Here's the links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-wYsI_ljiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2znadMvBlao
pretty boring videos though.:o They were set at private bc I originally only inteneded to make you suffer through them.:D
Here's a small teaser:p
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03687-1.jpg
Nice actual stick?:D..Looking forward to this one. I assume you're going to place a barricaded camera up close?
Well i finally got to try out my awesome 1k yard range!!! I didnt get nearly the hit rate as you Trident (even with a bigger steel target) but it only took 7 shots to get on target without a spotter or knowing my load velocity.
Hearing those rings at 1k sure is addicting!!!:p
I'm shooting off of an old makeshift folding kitchen table (as seen in the video) and the whole time i'm shooting my reticle is wobbling left and right very quickly and i'm just anticipating when it gets to the center of the target. I wasn't thinking it would be a big deal since the "wobble" doesn't quite move the reticle off the edges of the target but i really dont know what kind of effect it's having. It's interesting though because all my misses are either left or right (within 3 feet of the target) with no pattern (randomly hits left or right). This seems like something the "wobble" may be able to cause.:confused: My best was 6 hits of 10 shots but that wasn't the usual.
Anyway, i had a TON of fun for my 1st time.:D When i look across with the naked eye i just cant believe i'm making hits or even missing by the small amount that I am.
BTW: I just got some FGMM 175's and Prvi match 175's in the mail today. I've had good results with .223 Prvi but i've read some bad reviews on their 308 so I decided to try some for myself. BAD idea.....This ammo shot so badly at 100 yards that I thought I somehow damaged my barrel from cleaning it the other night ;). I was literally getting 4-5 MOA 5 shot groups. Next I shot the FGMM and my confidence was instantly restored with easy MOA accuracy. Although, I don't feel they're as accurate as my handloads.:p
Nice job dirtboy, don't under estimate the wind. Did you post up and flags or such. How much were you holding off for wind? 1 -2 mil's?
Here's the links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-wYsI_ljiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2znadMvBlao
pretty boring videos though.:o They were set at private bc I originally only inteneded to make you suffer through them.:D
Those are great! Thanks for posting!
You guys are doing a great job in this thread with pics, video and range data. I have no doubt that this is helpful to many other shooters including myself who are getting into the long range side of shooting. Hats off! :thank_you2:
Thanks for all the info, it also appears that all MWS seem to love 175GMM :cool: I need to find a place to shoot out to 1k, I am limited to 550yds at my club and its so easy with the MWS and NF 3.5-15 MLR that its getting boring.
D90, I hear you. We have a range we use that goes 500m, all you can do to keep from total boredom is smaller targets. We sit a headshot piece of steel beside our regular steel to keep us honest. 500 is still pretty good considering what many folks have to deal with.
That NF MLR pure sweetness. That thing will make you want to crank on the turrets.
Dirtyboy333
02-29-12, 15:16
Nice job dirtboy, don't under estimate the wind. Did you post up and flags or such. How much were you holding off for wind? 1 -2 mil's?
Thanks for the compliments guys....I'm very new to this so I feel I can get a much better hit rate when I get some good ole' experience. :p
Pappa: Yeah your right about the wind. It's a BI%CH!!! I have a MOA scope and I think the chart Trident posted worked out to be about 5 MOA hold off for every 5 MPH of wind at 1,000 yards. Now, I'm definitely not a good judge of the wind but I do remember holding left on a shot about 7 MOA (which seemed like I was aiming off the target by like 10ft. guesss it only would have been 70") and I made a nice hit. That was pretty exciting.:thank_you2: I have a flag on the top of the target stand and I had an extra so I just placed it in the ground at the foot of the stand. The wind was changing directions constantly and plenty of times the flag on top was blowing the opposite way of the flag 4 ft below it:confused: I have no clue why that would happen. The problem with this range is that I can't place any flags in the middle of it bc its an 800 yard valley.
Dirtyboy333
02-29-12, 21:36
So i just got done cleaning my MWS for the 1st time and man that was easy. As odd as it may be this was the 1st time i've cleaned a chrome bore and/or chrome BCG (never cleaned my DD and my 1st AR is unlined). Cleaning the chrome parts was almost effortless and the bore took about 1/3rd of the swabs as my unlined bore. I pulled the barrel out so the chamber was a breeze as well.
Does anyone have any tips on taking the 1/16th hex screw out of the bolt catch? I've snapped 2 allen wrenches already and the thing isn't budging. I cant believe how tight this thing is:eek: I noticed that with the mag out the bolt catch just flips up and down freely. I dont think it was like this before I shot yesterday but it could have been. Isn't it supposed to have a spring behind the lower part of it making sure the catch is disengaged when there's no mag or a loaded mag in place (like an AR15)? I think the spring may be caught on something in there because if i depress the lower half of the catch with some force i can feel a little "spring" reistence. It shouldn't cause the bolt to lock back prematurely unless i'm shooting upside down:p or something so I'm not that worried about it.
I just wanted to update on this: I shot 30 rounds at the 100 yard range yesterday as i was testing FGMM and Prvi before I take them to 1k. Well, all of the sudden my bolt catch spring is placing tension on the bolt catch again. So, it fixed itself... :p
^^^ .308 recoil isn't always a bad thing:p ^^^
RE: Wind reads.....
2 things to help you out
1.) Use this guide to help you read wind based purely on the environment your shooting in:
0-3 mph: Wind hardly felt, but smoke drifts
3-5 mph: Wind felt lightly on the face
5-8 mph: Leaves are kept in constant movement
8-12 mph: Raises dust and loose paper
12-15 mph: Causes small trees to sway
Note in my last report and video....the trees behind my target were swaying quite dramatically at times. I was shooting in 17-22mph winds, and that amt. of wind caused medium sized trees to sway just to take that guide above a bit further.
2.) Turn a weakness into a strength....Learn to identify, and understand mirage in order to read the wind. I've found this can only be mastered/utilized through experience actually doing it. It's almost impossible to relate how crazy mirage looks through an optic, much less describe how to interpret what it's relaying in terms of wind/speed. Nonetheless, don't overlook this valuable natural tool when trying to read wind for LR shooting. I've spent 30min + each of the last 4-5 trips out just watching the mirage through my glass.
Tomorrow night I'm thinking it's on like donkey kong.
Dirtyboy333
02-29-12, 23:58
^^^ .308 recoil isn't always a bad thing:p ^^^
RE: Wind reads.....
2 things to help you out
1.) Use this guide to help you read wind based purely on the environment your shooting in:
0-3 mph: Wind hardly felt, but smoke drifts
3-5 mph: Wind felt lightly on the face
5-8 mph: Leaves are kept in constant movement
8-12 mph: Raises dust and loose paper
12-15 mph: Causes small trees to sway
Note in my last report and video....the trees behind my target were swaying quite dramatically at times. I was shooting in 17-22mph winds, and that amt. of wind caused medium sized trees to sway just to take that guide above a bit further.
2.) Turn a weakness into a strength....Learn to identify, and understand mirage in order to read the wind. I've found this can only be mastered/utilized through experience actually doing it. It's almost impossible to relate how crazy mirage looks through an optic, much less describe how to interpret what it's relaying in terms of wind/speed. Nonetheless, don't overlook this valuable natural tool when trying to read wind for LR shooting. I've spent 30min + each of the last 4-5 trips out just watching the mirage through my glass.
Tomorrow night I'm thinking it's on like donkey kong.
Dude, thanks for that awesome guide!!! Based on what you just said I think I may have been underestimating the wind (like Pappa mentioned;)) I'm thinking now it was around 10-12mph but the wind at the target was always blowing a different direction. Who knows what that big valley is causing in terms of wind. Here's a vid from the same day and time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKYb4XMErxc
Watch the pine trees in the background starting after the 1st shot. I'm still not sure what mirage is so i'm going to look it up. I have noticed that the target seems a little blurry one minuet and then clears right up the next but i have no idea if that's related.
Here's a cool screenshot followed by my target setup.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/LMTMWS1k00244-10.jpg
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/IMG_0663.jpg
Oh, just got my 178 AMAX in today. Think i'm going to load 50 for myself and 50 for my uncles 300mag (he wants to try the 1k shot as it was basically unheard of in his small hunting circle :rolleyes:))
Dirtboy, I made some flags out of that orange tape too. I tied strings to my targets then clamped tape together to make flags. Looks like what you did. Nice video. Keeps the thread interesting.
I'm no expert as I have said before, so in the name of learning let me suggest that you work on follow through with your trigger. You appear to be breaking the trigger pretty hard and coming right off of it. Consider, breaking the trigger and holding back. When your ready for your next shot, release trigger slowly till it clicks or resets. Watch your video and watch your trigger and you might see an area for possible improvement. Since you don't have someone over your shoulder, you can get feedback with video which is cool.
Pm me if I'm not clear. Even if you want more time between shots, release trigger after you watch it hit, then reset or come off trigger.
Nice shooting.
Dirtyboy333
03-01-12, 00:56
Dirtboy, I made some flags out of that orange tape too. I tied strings to my targets then clamped tape together to make flags. Looks like what you did. Nice video. Keeps the thread interesting.
I'm no expert as I have said before, so in the name of learning let me suggest that you work on follow through with your trigger. You appear to be breaking the trigger pretty hard and coming right off of it. Consider, breaking the trigger and holding back. When your ready for your next shot, release trigger slowly till it clicks or resets. Watch your video and watch your trigger and you might see an area for possible improvement. Since you don't have someone over your shoulder, you can get feedback with video which is cool.
Pm me if I'm not clear. Even if you want more time between shots, release trigger after you watch it hit, then reset or come off trigger.
Nice shooting.
Yeah but actually those are some actual 2"x3" flags with a flimsy steel pole that came i a 25 pack (or so) at Lowes. The reason the flag on top of the target is longer is because I cut off like 3 or 4 flags and melted them with a lighter together as one. Now that you mention it, tape would have been much easier :D. That reminds me: I told the Lowes worker what they were for when checking out and he said that he was always watching guys in his unit shoot 1.5" groups @1,000 yards with the M21 .308. :p To be exact he said "groups like this" then took his thumb and index finger and made a circle. I dismissed anything he had to say after that. He was probably 23 and didn't seem like a mil guy.
Thanks for the tip on the trigger. Hopefully I can try that today. Yeah, i'm completely open to suggestions/tips. This is all new to me and I have 0 experience in it. Think i've learned more off this site in the past 1.5 years then I did in 17 years of school. I cant even have an interesting convo with a gunshop salesman anymore because they have no idea what i'm talking about:p
Tomorrow night I'm thinking it's on like donkey kong.
Pregnant with anticipation.
D90, I hear you. We have a range we use that goes 500m, all you can do to keep from total boredom is smaller targets. We sit a headshot piece of steel beside our regular steel to keep us honest. 500 is still pretty good considering what many folks have to deal with.
That NF MLR pure sweetness. That thing will make you want to crank on the turrets.
Clays are fun and challenging enough to keep your head in it. :cool:
Well let me first apologize for not bringing the proverbial goods on the night shoot stuff...I planned it all week, and we went Sat. night and "did it":suicide2:
It "worked", however none of the 4 jugs actually exploded and the steel really isn't cool at all. Long story short, it seemed to be way cooler in my imagination than it was in reality. Live and you learn.
Now for some of the best news of the thread for MWS owners/future ones....as well as a small report on easily one of the most challenging and educational long range shooting sessions thus far for myself.
1. My shooting pal finally allowed me to achieve the third vital category for highly successful LR shooting...which is the ability to create the perfect pill for your particular rifle/barrel. Hopefully the shooter, and the rifle have been there for some time now, but never have I had the ammo part nailed. My pal just took matters in his own hands to faciliate this for me, and did all the work. The LR pill he brewed up is exactly what I needed, and it didn't require any "work up" given the parameters of the bullet I was using in conjunct w/ COL.
Let me stress this now....MWS 16" CL owners can shoot 178gr. AMAX hand loads in normal magazine feed S/A operation.
The recipe is:
Once fired Hornady match brass
FGMM primers 210m
43.9g Varget powder
178gr. AMAX
COL: 2.805
We only had a handful of test rounds of this, so I put a 5rd group @ 100yds, and then a few at 845yds just for the hell of it....little did we know that it would produce such dramatic and awesome results almost instantly.
2. Today we found out how to truly read wind, and shoot through very strong, and constantly shifting winds. It was honestly a Eureka moment for both of us. You can see what were doing different now in the video update for this session below. Also for those wanting to know what a very, very strong mirage looks like while shooting LR....you'll see it perfectly in this video. Personally, it's looks like bubbling gas.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03701-1.jpg
Wicked mirage/strong winds.....@ 845yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcL_xuKccok&feature=youtube_gdata)
Nicely done as always. Did you try to shoot a group at 100 to see how they grouped, or do you just let em rip?
Let me stress this now....MWS 16" CL owners can shoot 178gr. AMAX hand loads in normal magazine feed S/A operation.
The recipe is:
Once fired Hornady match brass
FGMM primers 210m
43.9g Varget powder
178gr. AMAX
COL: 2.805
We only had a handful of test rounds of this, so I put a 5rd group @ 100yds, and then a few at 845yds just for the hell of it....little did we know that it would produce such dramatic and awesome results almost instantly.
Wicked mirage/strong winds.....@ 845yds [/SIZE][/B][/URL]
It looked like your hit ratio was similar before and after Amax. How are you able to gauge improved results? 5shot result?
Thanks as always for the video. Crazy winds
Nicely done as always. Did you try to shoot a group at 100 to see how they grouped, or do you just let em rip?
See tridents post. Curious as to results as well
Dirtyboy333
03-05-12, 09:10
SWEET!!! Thanks for the load info...I already have the 178's and my powder meter is already set for 43.9 grains from my SMK load...perfect :p
ETA: Pappa...I shot 1k again the other day and i worked on my foolow through like you suggested. I did much better... Now, it could just be that i'm reading the wind a lil better or a combination of the two etc....it was interesting though.
Of course, March winds in SWPA are always bad:(
Dirtyboy333
03-07-12, 04:45
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/a71e7ffa.jpg
100 rounds of 178 AMAX over 44.4 Varget...cant wait!!! I originally thought my powder measure was set to 43.9 (like Tridents load) but half way through loading I checked and it was 44.4...owell. I loaded these to 2.815"
I dont think i'm going to make it to 1k today. I'm going to shoot a few groups @100 and then go to 555 yards.
Pappa; Whats a good accurate "ball powder" alternative to Varget? Varget has been metering like shit for me lately. I'll get 4 consitent loads and then it throws one out thats .5 grains high:confused: Is this acceptable? I know that W748 meters perfectly but i've only used it for .223.
ETA: I tried a new formula in the ultrasonic and as you can see the brass looks like crap.
MWS day is always a blast!!!
It looked like your hit ratio was similar before and after Amax. How are you able to gauge improved results? 5shot result?
Thanks as always for the video. Crazy winds
See tridents post. Curious as to results as well
Good questions.....
We only had a handful of the new 178gr. AMAXs....so I first fired a 5rd group, and then checked the brass for signs of pressure, etc. The group was under MOA, and all brass looked perfectly fine. Lastly we put the remaining 178gr. AMAX loads on steel and almost immediately had success with them.
I'm about to go test another 60rds of them at 1k-1100yds in an hour and will have a much better idea of how they shoot.
Can't wait to hear your results dirtyboy, those look sweet:)
Trident,
PM sent.
Thanks!
Dirtyboy333
03-07-12, 16:34
Well sorry Trident...i slept through my whole day off:p I always work Thursday through Sunday 8pm-8am so my sleep schedule is all messed up.
I'm gonna try to get out tomorrow morning before bed...
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/a71e7ffa.jpg
100 rounds of 178 AMAX over 44.4 Varget...
Pappa; Whats a good accurate "ball powder" alternative to Varget? Varget has been metering like shit for me lately. I'll get 4 consitent loads and then it throws one out thats .5 grains high:confused: Is this acceptable? I know that W748 meters perfectly but i've only used it
MWS day is always a blast!!!
could try Ramshot TAC. But Dude, Varget is King! Go chase down some money, and buy a RCBS CHARGEMASTER and it will rock Varget rounds faster than a mofo.
.5 of charge is a different round, so yes it matters. Could change accuracy and POI.
GOOD LUCK.
Dirtyboy333
03-07-12, 23:39
could try Ramshot TAC. But Dude, Varget is King! Go chase down some money, and buy a RCBS CHARGEMASTER and it will rock Varget rounds faster than a mofo.
.5 of charge is a different round, so yes it matters. Could change accuracy and POI.
GOOD LUCK.
Yeah i was pretty sure that a half grain is pretty substantial. I like to keep my loads +/- .1 grains. When loading .223 with W748 I can hold that tolerance without issue but Varget is giving me trouble. Of course, if I want ultra-consitent rounds I just weigh each charge to exact weight but that's just too damn time consuming.:rolleyes:
Thank you for the recommendation bc i'm really not interested in using anything other then Varget. I'm using a 30-40 year old Lyman that my grandfather used. Next payday i'll buy that RCBS.
http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee498/Dirtyboy333/7fa32496.jpg
That CHARGEMASTER will just astound you. It will cut your loading time way down. And the loads will be perfect.
LoneWolfRonin
03-10-12, 11:37
Nice write up! I was looking at LMT for my next carbine. Nice pics as well.
Trident - Checked in with the LGS last week and it appears that my MRP shipped end of last week and should be in middle of this week sometime. It's been about 6 weeks, so not too bad. Looking forward to it.
I also stopped by another LGS this past weekend and they said that they have a shipment of LM8 in 5.56 that is supposed to come in middle of next week as well. They also mentioned that they have the CQB length and the rifle length rail coming in for the LM8. I'll definitely be by to check those out. Just as I'm getting my MRP in and the LM8's are starting to come in, and one in a rifle length rail too! Damn, this could be an expensive month! Haha.
Thanks lonewolfronin:) Can't wait to see your MRP drck1000, you've patiently waited your time.
VELOCITY EVALS:
I finally got the Oehler 35P up in action, and as always many thanks to fellow member Slomo for his very generous gesture of allowing me to borrow the 35P. I'm gonna add several more Velocity Evals for popular factory loadings, but figured I would start with my new mainstay....the hand loaded 178gr. AMAX. I also shot off a string of Remington 150gr. Corelokt to compare against.
I didn't have much of the hand loaded 178gr. AMAX, so I had to shoot the single group I collected off the bench with very little support while trying to still shoot the chrony. Nonetheless, I'm super impressed with the velocity data and accuracy of this new LR handload.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03821-1.jpg
Conditions:
Temp: 77degree F
Elev: 481 ft.
Hum: 59%
Pressure: 30.21 <---
Oehler 35P Proof Screen Chronograph..........Screen to muzzle = 10ft.
Remington CoreLokt 150gr.
1 - 2616
2 - 2625
3 - 2676
4 - 2598
5 - 2660
6 - 2667
+ 2676
- 2598
E 78
M 2640
S 31
Custom LR 178gr. AMAX
1 - 2461
2 - 2486
3 - 2474
4 - 2481
5 - 2474
6 - 2483
7 - 2476
8 - 2481
9 - 2481
10 -2478
+ 2486
- 2461
E 25
M 2477
S 6
10rd group @ 100yds (this stuff will most definitely shoot smaller 10rd groups when shot in prone with rear supported)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/targetp1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03824-1.jpg
True Dope for a MWS 16" CL barrel with 178gr. AMAX - 1200yds :cool:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03831-1.jpg
Dirtyboy333
04-07-12, 12:50
Shot the MWS @ 553 yards the other day at my 12"x16" target. Of course, the results were great (this gun and trigger make it pretty easy):o
Its hard to believe how much effect velocity change+ wind have on a bullet. I'm getting about 85% hit rate @ 553 on a 12x16. Now, my 1,000 yard target is 17x26" (not including the neck) which has well over twice the surface area as my 12x16. I'm also shooting more than half of 1,000 yards. So, in a perfect world (no wind) I should be getting a higher hit rate on the 1k target but of course this isnt nearly the case. At 1k i'm feeling great if I get a 40% hit rate. I realize there are some other factors at play like transonic stability etc. but the wind is the major factor. I'm thinking that there's some weird wind phenomenon taking place in the valley that i shoot across at the 1k range. :confused:
Anyway, here's a vid. If you cant hear the hits i went 17-20 with the first 12 shots all hitting. Remember, I shoot kinda slow:happy: And yes, i know that i'm always wearing that old sweater. It's just so comfy to shoot in:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeSBZu01aDQ
Here's a quick vid of the impact at the target with 175 SMK's @ 553 yards. Not only does it throw the target around alot more than .223 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETu18wZ8nlg)but the sonic crack on the misses seems much louder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-n7WJJhrlc
My 18" SS is in route...
ETA: Over 700 rounds since I last cleaned this gun and I dont even notice. I've only lubed it like 3 times since I got it.
Great report Dirty, thanks for continuing to share with us:)
I believe I have thoroughly evaluated this MWS, and now that I feel I have done so, I'm gonna put some more money where my mouth is and order up a LM8 MWS hopefully this week sometime:p
I will continually study minor aspects like exterior ballistics with regards to this rifle, however I'm concluding the major evaluating of the rifle's mechanical accuracy/reliability, it's overall design, quality, and lastly fit/finish.
The numbers:
1260rds fired....
0 rifle malfunctions....one ammo malfunction(Hornady Zmax blown primer)
1038yds....repeatable max effective range/longest distance successfully engaged.
.819 MOA....10rd group avg. with factory loaded match ammo
5.... the number of pmags that have been flawless thus far, each one has at least 100rds through it, and my original one has well over 500rds through it. What a blessing it is to continue to use pmags exclusively in all my ARs.
Anyways, most of all the ammo evaluation targets are included in this thread, but some may be missing. Here are the last several targets from this morning's session, and then my overall Factory ammo evaluation spreadsheet.
BH's 175gr. SMK Red box
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/targetnew3.jpg
unedited pic...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC04974-1.jpg
Federal/AE M1A 168gr. SMK
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/targetnew2.jpg
unedited pic...
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC04979-1.jpg
LMT MWS 16" CL factory ammo evaluation chart
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC05042-1.jpg
Dirtyboy333
04-10-12, 11:10
Damn, looks like i need to try some 168 SMK's...I have only shot the 175's but i've been well pleased.
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