Keeping the support hand planted?

[An Undocumented Worker]

I'm wondering what many of ya'll do to keep your support hand planted on the grip of your pistol under recoil.

I'm using a thumbs foreward grip with the isosceles stance. I don't currently pull back with my support hand, as doing so seems to throw my shots off a bit. However I find my support hand sliding foreward a bit while firing. Glocks tend really highlight this for me with their flat sides on the grip.

So what do I need to change on my grip to counteract this problem, from applying counter pressure, or maybe even looser elbows, just not sure?

[RichDC2]

I find that squeezing harder works for me.

[LHQuattro]

I'm wondering what many of ya'll do to keep your support hand planted on the grip of your pistol under recoil.

I'm using a thumbs foreward grip with the isosceles stance. I don't currently pull back with my support hand, as doing so seems to throw my shots off a bit. However I find my support hand sliding foreward a bit while firing. Glocks tend really highlight this for me with their flat sides on the grip.

So what do I need to change on my grip to counteract this problem, from applying counter pressure, or maybe even looser elbows, just not sure?

couple things....
1. Apply lateral pressure by using your pec muscles to "pinch" the gun between your hands. Its kinda like doing dumbell flys or a pec decs, just really light.
2. counter-rotate the gun in your hands. Try to twist the gun apart, like wringing out a wet tower.

It doesn't take much of either technique for me.

Another thing to watch is how high your elbows get. The higher the better....except that if they get too exaggerated, the hands can start to break apart low on the grip (pinkies come apart in recoil). This probably varies by individual, how flexible your wrists are, etc.

If your still having problems, maybe just a touch of push pull, but don't go full weaver.
You never go full weaver.

[5cary]

couple things....
1. Apply lateral pressure by using your pec muscles to "pinch" the gun between your hands. Its kinda like doing dumbell flys or a pec decs, just really light.
2. counter-rotate the gun in your hands. Try to twist the gun apart, like wringing out a wet tower.


I had the same issue switching from a Sig to an M&P. My support hand grip on the Sig was FAR more stable for some reason. The two methods above worked great for me for awhile.

I was taught to do it by "rolling the elbows up", which pretty much describes #1 above. The only problem is I ended up with a foul case of tennis elbow from it. No kidding.

Now I stick with method #2, and I like the results.

[TANTO]

As one that shot for years with thumbs down and has converted, you are on the right track. For some of us anyways it's a constant battle to keep that left palm from moving on the left grip panel. Try a rubber sleeve or better yet have Bowie or someone put a rough texture on the grips. Thats the biggest help IMO.

While most of us are moving away from 1911's, the ledge at the back of the left grip really helps. It still works with flat grip guns but you can't use a relaxed grip. Your grip has to be full clamp down all the time. Pisses me off personally. Relaxing the grip a bit WAS a good thing, no more with these "modern' guns. Of course the sucky triggers need a full clamp down anyway.

Being an old guy starting with weaver, there are many times when using a weaver (without much push pull as correctly mentioned) is necessary unless you want your elbows shot off.

And you can't go thumbs forward on many of the small pistols. You have to do it all. Shooters starting out today can only do full on isosolys (sp). Being able to keep your lock down thumbs forward grip while going weaver with the arms is a good skill. Sometimes you can't help but to crowd a barricade. JMO.

[skyugo]

maybe try to get your support hand rolled clockwise slightly around the grip, basically getting more of your support fingers around your strong hand if that makes sense. I have kind of huge hands for a guy who's only 5'9... so this really hasn't been an issue for me with glocks. it is something i frequently see people struggle with though.
that should hopefully give you a bit more clamping force with your support hand....

[Striker]

I also would say try a grip sleeve, grip tape or stippling. I have a grip sleeve on my Glock. It works great. I like rubber grips or grip sleeves, but that's a personal choice. The other systems work as well.

If that doesn't help, then you need to tighten your grip as suggested by the others. Though you shouldn't need to have a death grip a pistol to shoot it. I don't know how tightly you grip a pistol now, so it's hard for me to say. Have you had any training? If yes, what did your trainer say about your grip?

[skyugo]

those rubber or sandpaper style stickers that are pre-cut to fit glocks look like a good way to go...

[An Undocumented Worker]

While I appreciate the comments about griptape,stippling, rubber sleaves etc. I am of the opinion it's a software error and not a hardware error. My support hand is already cocked down and locked with my trigger hand thumb resting on the meat of the support thumb. I'll try changing how I apply pressure to the grip and see what happens.

I appreciate the suggestions, and please keep em coming as I'm sure they'll help others on here too.

[thopkins22]

Do you have small or unusually sweaty hands? I know that when I get sweaty, my support hand can't do nearly as much. I tend to think that the answer is developing stronger hands and the bandaid is to dry them off before each stage or string of fire.

[JHC]

While I appreciate the comments about griptape,stippling, rubber sleaves etc. I am of the opinion it's a software error and not a hardware error. My support hand is already cocked down and locked with my trigger hand thumb resting on the meat of the support thumb. I'll try changing how I apply pressure to the grip and see what happens.

I appreciate the suggestions, and please keep em coming as I'm sure they'll help others on here too.

If you spread your hand out wide, what is the distance from pinkie tip to thumb tip? This is how they measure QB's hands at the combine. In my limited sampling, my sons and a couple of other inexperienced shooters with a shorter span than mine (9") experience the thumbs forward grip much differently than I. Eldest son with freakish strong forearms and grip has no problem. Others more normal cannot push the thumbs forward as far as most "ideal" photos depict it and keep the support hand solidly anchored.

Ken Hackathorn briefly addressed this to our class last weekend. While he likes thumbs forward, he felt you needed to modify it to suit your hands and not force it beyond what your anatomy can actually manage.

[An Undocumented Worker]

If you spread your hand out wide, what is the distance from pinkie tip to thumb tip? This is how they measure QB's hands at the combine. In my limited sampling, my sons and a couple of other inexperienced shooters with a shorter span than mine (9") experience the thumbs forward grip much differently than I. Eldest son with freakish strong forearms and grip has no problem. Others more normal cannot push the thumbs forward as far as most "ideal" photos depict it and keep the support hand solidly anchored.

Ken Hackathorn briefly addressed this to our class last weekend. While he likes thumbs forward, he felt you needed to modify it to suit your hands and not force it beyond what your anatomy can actually manage.

9 3/8s" My hands are big enough, just the heel of the support hand slips foreward. I don't believe my hands are unusually sweaty, and as for strength I wrench on cars for a living and mountain bike regularly. I think I just need to change how I apply pressure.

[Spiffums]

I had the same issue switching from a Sig to an M&P. My support hand grip on the Sig was FAR more stable for some reason. The two methods above worked great for me for awhile.

I was taught to do it by "rolling the elbows up", which pretty much describes #1 above. The only problem is I ended up with a foul case of tennis elbow from it. No kidding.

Now I stick with method #2, and I like the results.

Happened to me building an extension on a carport with a air nailer. I was rolling my elbow up to get a little farther out off the ladder to make the safety nose tip work and it liked to have never gotten better.

[EzGoingKev]

Double tap

[EzGoingKev]

IMO the biggest thing that made a difference was stippling the grip on my Glock. It lets me get a SOLID grip CONSISTENTLY with my primary hand so that is one less thing to worry about.

[Kokopelli]

I don't know what pistol you're shooting and I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking, but I like to talk about pistol shooting. Just my opinions and YMMV... I shoot 1911's and use VZ G-10 diamondbacks (or similar) grips for range pistols. I carry smooth grips and prefer front strap and MSH checkering. From my perspective there's three factors or components in grip mechanics. One is the grip of pistol in the hands, another is the suspension of the arms during recoil and still another is the body reacting to the recoil. Sort of a one, two, three thing. The resistance to the rotational forces of the pistol in the hand is the first thing to get a handle on, a "grip on" if you will. You may want to experiment with different levels of tension, hand position, etc.. and see what the pistol will do. The pistol will most certainly move in the hand, if nothing more that the flesh giving under recoil. Gripping tighter than necessary is of little help and may in fact induce jerking or other unwanted motions. Of course gripping too lightly and/or not having a solid foundation of grip technique will result in excessive movement of the pistol in the hand with the associated loss of control and poor follow through/second shot. Work on your grip mechanics and try to increase/decrease the tension without changing your grip. Shoot a lot of rounds..

Once you get comfortable with the grip thing, pay close attention to the angles of your arms and how they absorb the recoil. Vary the degree of the triangle by bringing the pistol in closer to the body and try to find that "best distance/angle". Next concentrate on where the recoil is resisted/absorbed and try to feel the recoil pulse moving from wrist to shoulder. You should be able to isolate the majority of the recoil on the wrist, elbow or shoulder. Like a body builder isolating muscle groups. Try and find the most comfortable and workable dampening. Shoot a lot.

When you get all that working for you, the last part of the formula is what the body does with the recoil pulse from the shoulders to the feet. You can lean in and take it all in the upper body or you can use the entire body to absorb the pulse. In theory you should use every part of the stance to spread out the recoil. Try hips forward, weak hip forward, leaning in more and leaning in less. shoot a lot.

IMO.. This will help you locate any issues with grip as well as learning how your body responds to recoil dynamics. Cheers.. Ron

[Magic_Salad0892]

Squeezing harder with the firing hand, and wrapping my support hand around my master hand a little more works for me.

Also having my elbows just a little higher helps.

If you sqeeze with your support hand too much, you'll throw shots, so try to maintain 70% of your pressure or so with your master hand.

It works well for me.

[glen]

I had my own problems in this area and did the following, which is helping so far:

First, I figured I needed to increase the surface area of my left hand that engaged the grips. Analyzing my grip, the lower part of my left palm was not engaging the grip enough, and I made the conscious effort to have as much of my left palm engaging the grip panel as possible.

Second, I worked to increase my left hand grip strength. Just left a grip exerciser in the car and worked out my left hand on the drive to and from work everyday.

Third, I tried to "shrink wrap" my left hand over my right hand. For me, less space between gun and hands equal less gaps for shifting to occur.

[d90king]

You are 100% correct in your approach. Work on software instead of hardware first. That's not to say that using RTF Glock frames etc,etc won't help with a more positive purchase but that is only part of the solution. To often we get wrapped up in trying to take short cuts or finding some easy way out. The bottom line is that it takes work and a lot of it on solid fundamentals.

Work to try and have an even grip surrounding the pistol. With even pressure on all four corners.

Here are a couple pics of my grip from both sides that illustrate how I do it. This grip allows me to run the gun hard and fast.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/340003_10150514136784186_503914185_11174646_847576460_o.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/326150_10150514141754186_503914185_11174691_1784562519_o.jpg

Notice the cant on my support hand which helps manage recoil and where my fingers fall on my strong hand. You can also see that I use the ledge on the Glock to create downward pressure to manage recoil.

Hope it helps.

[JHC]

9 3/8s" My hands are big enough, just the heel of the support hand slips foreward. I don't believe my hands are unusually sweaty, and as for strength I wrench on cars for a living and mountain bike regularly. I think I just need to change how I apply pressure.

That'll do! I agree with Magic Salads's last post and that is also how I approach it after some experimentation.

[TANTO]

One thing of interest i noticed when i used to shoot dipstick way back was that fat fingers really help. With my medium sized hands i accidently found that if i do a moderate hand exercise routine the day before i shoot, my fingers being slightly swollen helped my grip SO much, even though my hands are quite strong and i consider my grip technique perfected as much as it can be. It's not the strength, it's just the slight swelling firms up the overall "unit". My hands are the same size as LAV. He mentioned in a class that you may only get around 150 good rounds before fatigue occurs. IMO those of us with smallish hands have to clamp down hard. Those with larger/fatter hands can likely go much longer and keep a more relaxed grip. Consider grip reductions. They really help me on the Glock.

Another issue is that i torque the right hand down while resisting that by twisting the left hand up into the trigger guard. This is carryover from the weaver days and i attempt to only do this at the minimum required level. While the amount of force put into these opposing forces varies with the gun and somewhat with the type distance and speed, this concept does tend to try to twist my left palm on the left grip. Need monster texture at this point. I"m trying to provide the left opposing force by more of the left index finger and less actual left hand torque keeping the left palm planted better.

For my grip, my left hand is doing 70% of the work. In fact the only part of my right hand that is clamping with any authority is my right thumb pushing hard into the frame.

[An Undocumented Worker]

You are 100% correct in your approach. Work on software instead of hardware first. That's not to say that using RTF Glock frames etc,etc won't help with a more positive purchase but that is only part of the solution. To often we get wrapped up in trying to take short cuts or finding some easy way out. The bottom line is that it takes work and a lot of it on solid fundamentals.

Work to try and have an even grip surrounding the pistol. With even pressure on all four corners.

Here are a couple pics of my grip from both sides that illustrate how I do it. This grip allows me to run the gun hard and fast.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/340003_10150514136784186_503914185_11174646_847576460_o.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/326150_10150514141754186_503914185_11174691_1784562519_o.jpg

Notice the cant on my support hand which helps manage recoil and where my fingers fall on my strong hand. You can also see that I use the ledge on the Glock to create downward pressure to manage recoil.

Hope it helps.

That is roughly the grip I use, except my support hand index finger wraps all the way around into the webbing of trigger hand between the index and middle finger. Infact the tip of my support hand index finger just touches the opposing side of the mag release.

I almost thinking I may have to try squeezing my elbows closer together to get more clamping force on the lower part of the grip.

[d90king]

That is roughly the grip I use, except my support hand index finger wraps all the way around into the webbing of trigger hand between the index and middle finger. Infact the tip of my support hand index finger just touches the opposing side of the mag release.

I almost thinking I may have to try squeezing my elbows closer together to get more clamping force on the lower part of the grip.

I have seen guys that have fingers as long as yours actually end up torquing the gun to the left by applying to much pressure with their support pointing finger. If you are shooting left that could be the culprit....

I would try bring your elbows up and try to apply even lateral pressure. Without seeing your shooting grip and positioning its hard to offer helpful advise. Just taking a couple stabs at it.

[An Undocumented Worker]

I have seen guys that have fingers as long as yours actually end up torquing the gun to the left by applying to much pressure with their support pointing finger. If you are shooting left that could be the culprit....

I would try bring your elbows up and try to apply even lateral pressure. Without seeing your shooting grip and positioning its hard to offer helpful advise. Just taking a couple stabs at it.

Yep, thrown shots always go left of the bullseye, damn near never to the right of it.

[d90king]

Yep, thrown shots always go left of the bullseye, damn near never to the right of it.

I'd put money on that your torquing the pistol with your support finger near the trigger guard. Move that finger down or consciously reduce the tension there and see what happens. Money says that it brings you back closer to center.

If you run your grip dry agains a back drop that allows you to track the gun you can see how easy it is to do especially with long fingers. You are probably tightining your grip as you are releasing the shot and the extra pressure is coming from your support top finger near the trigger guard.

It's why I focus on trying to capture that finger primarily on my strong hand and keep it from touching the firearm except for strong contact under the trigger guard.

Give it a try maybe it will help.

[An Undocumented Worker]

I'd put money on that your torquing the pistol with your support finger near the trigger guard. Move that finger down or consciously reduce the tension there and see what happens. Money says that it brings you back closer to center.

If you run your grip dry agains a back drop that allows you to track the gun you can see how easy it is to do especially with long fingers. You are probably tightining your grip as you are releasing the shot and the extra pressure is coming from your support top finger near the trigger guard.

It's why I focus on trying to capture that finger primarily on my strong hand and keep it from touching the firearm except for strong contact under the trigger guard.

Give it a try maybe it will help.

Thanks, I'll try that out at the range next time.:)

[ER_STL]

A few thoughts:

1. How are you applying your support hand to the gun? I've found that if I overlay my strong-hand fingers with my support-hand fingers first before wrapping the hand around onto the gun that it locks the grip in tighter. If I bring the hand onto the gun first and then overlay the fingers, the grip "swims" more.

2. Look at how your hands fit the gun. Long, skinny fingers plus average-sized grip equals little room for the support hand on the gun. I have average but skinny hands and I actually prefer the fatter G21/30 sized grips.

3. Think about trying to press the meat of your palm / thumb-joint against the gun in addition to just clamping down with the support hand. Most (including myself) accomplish this by bring the elbows out rather than down. My support side elbow is a little higher than my strong side and this helps me mash the thumb-meat of my support hand against the gun. I run my Glocks naked and can keep my hands in place with my 127gr +p+ carry ammo without any problems.

4. Strengthen your grip. I'm realizing benefits overall to having a stronger grip in addition to just shooting. I can close a CoC #2 gripper twice per hand in each "set" and the added strength has helped my shooting.

5. Add a slight push-pull when you find your hands to be dry, slippery, etc.

[An Undocumented Worker]

Another question I may have is, how much pressure should be exerted on the grip, firm yet comfortable, or as much as one can reasonably apply without inducing shakes?

And I already cant my support hand down, but do you apply a downward rotational force with the support hand aswell, or leave that aspect neutral?

[ER_STL]

All things being equal, a stronger grip can only help control the gun. The problem of course is that all things rarely ever are equal. I’m finding that when I want to run say a Bill Drill that I really crush down with my support hand. My strong hand is firm yet relaxed enough to keep dexterity in the trigger finger. I tend to relax a little more for shots that require more precision.

I’ve never bought into the 60/40, 70/30, 74.32/25.68 thing. I try and grip firmly enough to run the gun the way I want it to run. That sounds overly simplistic but sometimes it helps to just shoot rather than think about it so much. Again, if I can avoid sacrificing accuracy and speed, a stronger grip will only help.

Regarding the cant of the support hand wrist, I’m finding it more important to line up the support hand fingers over the strong hand fingers and let the wrist angle sort itself out. My support hand wrist is canted but not so much that it’s hyperflexed and at the limit of its range. Rather, it’s in the position that best allows it to apply thumb-meat to the grip and keep the fingers lined up. Guns like the Glock with a more aggressive grip angle will lead to a more canted wrist; others like the M&P will lead to less. I’ve played around with really canting the wrist forward and I’ve found that it decreases the strength of my support hand grip and it doesn’t offer enough of a benefit over what I’ve described above to make a difference.

The best thing to do IMHO is wring it all out at the range. Play around with a variety of grip configurations until you determine what best works for you. Once you do find the right combination, try it out by running your carry ammo through your carry gun when you first get to the range (and are cold, so to speak). I too like to solicit the advice of others as I learn but in the end I’ve had the best benefit by shooting frequently and observing what does and does not work.

[d90king]

Another question I may have is, how much pressure should be exerted on the grip, firm yet comfortable, or as much as one can reasonably apply without inducing shakes?

And I already cant my support hand down, but do you apply a downward rotational force with the support hand aswell, or leave that aspect neutral?

Dependent on the type of shooting you are doing... If your burning bills you're pressure will be different than if you are running the 700 at 25yds...

The canted support hand will be suffice. That's why it's canted to begin with. It will allow the sights to return back on target faster. Don't fight the gun, run it. If I'm really trying to run fast I use my thumb on the ledge to create downward pressure... Pretty sure it was Defoor that that little nugget came from...

I would work slow and build on your grip, then slowly increase to speed drills when you have fixed the lefts. Start there and build off of that....

[Magic_Salad0892]

Work to try and have an even grip surrounding the pistol. With even pressure on all four corners.


Notice the cant on my support hand which helps manage recoil and where my fingers fall on my strong hand. You can also see that I use the ledge on the Glock to create downward pressure to manage recoil.



I should have mentioned even pressure, and using the pistol to balance the pistol.

This will make a dramatic difference.

I totally forgot.