View Full Version : Steel receivers?
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 09:53
I'm looking for just basic, run of the mill, steel (not stainless or aluminum) upper and lower receivers.
Has nothing to do with adding weight for reduced recoil or anything else. Its for a custom build and steel is the best bet for initial testing/proofing.
I'm making initial prototypes and steel is much easier to work with, and is much cheaper, also its much easier to fix mistakes.
Ideal would be AR-15 upper and lower receivers, however; AR-10 type receivers will suffice if available. Would prefer finished products, however 80% forgings will do as well, as I do not have a multi-axis CNC mill capable of complex radius's to make my own, just a standard manual vertical mill.
Or even just receivers made of any material other than 7075. That are not absurdly expensive.
Any info in the right direction is appreciated.
An Undocumented Worker
12-18-11, 10:05
I have never heard of such a thing in the realm of AR-15s etc. This platform was initially designed to be made out of aluminum. I doubt you will find any forged or billet steel upper or lower for an AR.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 10:09
I have never heard of such a thing in the realm of AR-15s etc. This platform was initially designed to be made out of aluminum. I doubt you will find any forged or billet steel upper or lower for an AR.
really? I would have thought someone, somewhere, would offer them as just a really low cost alternative.
Maybe from just an off-brand, not well known start-up company that just got into the game.
that kinda blows
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 10:14
http://ferret50.com/ferret50_conversion.html
they offer a steel single shot lower, although a standard mag fed lower would be much more desirable
Someone ran a steel lower years back. Machining costs make no sense for no gain in performance.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 10:21
Someone ran a steel lower years back. Machining costs make no sense for no gain in performance.
I agree completely, however, my intention is to simply use them only to create/test/proof my initial design. Once all of the bugs are worked out, I would model it and have the production runs made in 7075T6...
Its easier to work with steel in the home workshop with just standard shop tools (welder, vertical mill, lathe, so on and so forth) than it is to try and successfully modify a heat treated aluminum...
its going to cost too much in initial production to try and have custom parts machined in 7075, just to have the design crap out and have to be altered, requiring additional machined replacements... each time costing X amount of dollars.... where as... with steel I can just weld, grind and mill until I'm back to where I started
I guess my best bet would be paying to have a set machined out of untreated 4150 from one of the standard AR15 CAD files floating around
DPMS made a stainless lower years ago. I don't remember if they made an upper in the same material, though.
IndianaBoy
12-18-11, 11:04
If I recall correctly, there are some transferable M16 lowers out there that were made out of stainless steel. So it has been done. I don't know of any commercially available steel receivers though.
I agree completely, however, my intention is to simply use them only to create/test/proof my initial design. Once all of the bugs are worked out, I would model it and have the production runs made in 7075T6...
Its easier to work with steel in the home workshop with just standard shop tools (welder, vertical mill, lathe, so on and so forth) than it is to try and successfully modify a heat treated aluminum...
its going to cost too much in initial production to try and have custom parts machined in 7075, just to have the design crap out and have to be altered, requiring additional machined replacements... each time costing X amount of dollars.... where as... with steel I can just weld, grind and mill until I'm back to where I started
I guess my best bet would be paying to have a set machined out of untreated 4150 from one of the standard AR15 CAD files floating around
agreed for welding steel is much easier, but aluminum is quite a bit easier to machine. Granted it's heat treated, but it will still be quite a bit softer than steel.
I take it the welding thing is a major part of your plan? Perhaps you could fab up a crude version of your idea from steel stock... If you're going to have something fabbed anyway why not give the machinist your cad models and prints to work with rather than having them build a standard receiver first?
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 11:48
agreed for welding steel is much easier, but aluminum is quite a bit easier to machine. Granted it's heat treated, but it will still be quite a bit softer than steel.
I take it the welding thing is a major part of your plan? Perhaps you could fab up a crude version of your idea from steel stock... If you're going to have something fabbed anyway why not give the machinist your cad models and prints to work with rather than having them build a standard receiver first?
I kinda want to keep it under wraps until it is completed and working properly... just to be honest.
Not to mention, its going to be a lot of trial and error of what works and what does not, and that being said, its just easier starting with a standard lower and then just cutting and welding as needed... If I had access to a great computer and Solidworks with flow analysis I'd try to knock out as much as I could with that... but the seat of the pants style I'm stuck with right now lends itself easier to steel and just welding and milling.
The main issue is 7075 Aluminum is not structurally sound once welded. It welds fine, however it can't be relied upon due to a very high probability of corrosion stress cracking do to altering the molecular structure of the treated material surrounding the weld.... not to mention the zinc components affects on the weld itself.
That being said, I am unsure as to the amount of forces imparted on the receivers during firing, so I really don't want to take the chance of this thing coming apart because I messed up with the stress predictions.... I know there is relatively no force subjected upon the lower, but the upper on the other hand.... I can see that going bad fast...
http://de.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/help/article.asp?PID=994
7075 receivers would be fine if I could get them before they are heat treated and coated....
I deal with some steel where I work. Its a monsterous PITA to even think of what I think you your trying to do. With the correct cnc machinery, which I never have had the pleasure to own, it wouldnt be so bad. What do you have access to?
Honestly, I think its a cool idea, but I hope what your trying to do is worth the assache its gonna be. Keep us informed.
EDM arms in hurricane utah makes a steel ar10 style lower.
If I recall correctly, there are some transferable M16 lowers out there that were made out of stainless steel. So it has been done. I don't know of any commercially available steel receivers though.
They were by Group Industries
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 18:27
I deal with some steel where I work. Its a monsterous PITA to even think of what I think you your trying to do. With the correct cnc machinery, which I never have had the pleasure to own, it wouldnt be so bad. What do you have access to?
Honestly, I think its a cool idea, but I hope what your trying to do is worth the assache its gonna be. Keep us informed.
in the process of getting a TIG to replace my busted MIG, and just a standard lathe, vertical mill, shop press, and just various grinders and etc....
no CNC's or any of that fancy stuff
Number one... If you are prototyping firearms I would hope that you are not spending a great deal of time welding and grinding... grind to fit and "eye balling" tolerances is how you get very hurt. I don't want to squash your dreams, but this isn't a back yard hobby.
You will find it easier to machine aluminum than steel. There is no cheap way to prototype. 6061 alloy is weldable.
Check this website- http://www.cncguns.com/
I'm neither a metallurgist or an engineer, but I'm struggling with how a steel receiver is beneficial here?
I believe Brownell's carried both a stainless upper and lower several years ago (early - mid 90's). They don't now but someone must have bought one. I don't understand the necessity for a steel AR receiver, but I'm not a gunsmith or an engineer.
Reagans Rascals
12-18-11, 23:13
custom build
steel is weldable
7075 aluminum is not
that's all
you may want to check if one of the billet lower manufacturers can mill you a receiver in something other than 7075, the chance of them going to a non ferrous metal, or even straying from their normal procoss is slim.. I would say draw something up first then use something easy to prototype like wax or nylon (non working prototype obviously) then have some one forge you a blank and then final machine. This isnt cheep, so your best bet is draw somthing up and show some one important.
Reagans Rascals
12-19-11, 00:53
I've thought of the wax/wood/plaster prototype, but its honestly not that hard to just mill sections out and weld in what I want and test it, and if it needs tweaking just mill, weld and grind some more until its where it needs to be.
I just need a material able to be worked in those ways.
I'll try and see if I can find someone that makes one in 6061 or perhaps could sell me a set in 7075 before they heat treat them
Essential Arms made a small run of steel lowers when they first came back into the ar lower buisness. They were not stainless just some type carbon steel. According to the owner he sold me the last one he had at the time. You may check and see he may have made some since then.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.