AK decision

[sinlessorrow]

so im looking to get an AK

i plan to pick up a stock, standard arsenal, but my question is what caliber?

7.62x39(SGL-21)
5.45x39(SGL-31)
5.56x45(SLR-106FR)

what would be your choice?

ETA: all my current rifles are ar-15's

[VIP3R 237]

Most recommend 7.62 for a first ak but I personally like the ammo price of the 5.45 which is what I went with, as for the 5.56 I only have ar experience with that.

[sinlessorrow]

Most recommend 7.62 for a first ak but I personally like the ammo price of the 5.45 which is what I went with, as for the 5.56 I only have ar experience with that.

thanks, im really interested in 7.62 since i already have a small caliber high velocity gun, but itd be nice to be able to share ammo as well.

i also updated the OP with the gun models im looking at

[Iceberg]

I'd opt for the SGL31 & it's cheaper 5.45x39 ammo if I could only buy one. The Bulgy Arsenals are nice, but I would rather have a Russian made AK. I have several new model Arsenal (Russian) AKs, SGL20, SGL31 & SGL41 and they are all very well made. I have stocked up on the cheap Russian surplus 5.45x39 ammo for the SGL31 while it is available.
SGL31-61
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll42/ekbergie/Gun%20Collection/007-1.jpg
SGL20-01 (Early version of the SGL21)
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll42/ekbergie/Gun%20Collection/001-1.jpg
SGL41-61
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll42/ekbergie/Gun%20Collection/020.jpg

[DeltaSierra]

I have first hand experience with all the three of the rifles that were mentioned in the original post, and honestly, I don't think that you can wrong with any of them.

You will take a slight reliability hit with the 5.56 AK but if you already have other 5.56 rifles, the logistical aspects would make me lean towards the 5.56 SLR......



I personally don't see any reason to go with one caliber over the other, as they are all quite effective within their operating parameters.

[CumbiaDude]

Either 5.45 or 7.62. 5.56 has the slight aggravation of having to find decent mags. Military 7.62 mags and to a slightly lesser extent 5.45 mags are plentiful, cheap, reliable, etc. Military 5.56 mags are much rarer - basically you're limited to Bulgarian (if I remember right). I wouldn't recommend any non-military mag, they're never as good.

It is only a slight aggravation though, and as DeltaSierra said, if you already have 5.56 rifles, it may be worth the minor one-time hassle of finding decent mags to keep ammo compatibility (really I think you can just go to K-var and buy a bunch of Bulgies and be done with it).

[DeltaSierra]

It is only a slight aggravation though, and as DeltaSierra said, if you already have 5.56 rifles, it may be worth the minor one-time hassle of finding decent mags to keep ammo compatibility (really I think you can just go to K-var and buy a bunch of Bulgies and be done with it).

That is exactly what I did, and I can't complain. I won't buy any other magazines now that I spoiled myself with the Bulgarian mags....

[sinlessorrow]

thanks for all the reply's

if i got the 106 i would def buy a bunch of those bulgi K-Var mags....the clear ones:D

im really leaning towards it for ammo availability, is it reliable with steel cased ammo? its about all i run for range use

[Peshawar]

im really leaning towards it for ammo availability, is it reliable with steel cased ammo? its about all i run for range use

Yup. The current crop of 106's are very reliable. You should be pretty well set up with that rifle. If SLR's were legal in CA I'd have one myself.

[2-BPM]

5.45 is the one i would pick. The ammo is super cheap, and more accurate than 7.62 in my experience. This is based off firing multiple 5.45 Aks next to 7.62 guns, multiple types of both ammo and rifles. If you already own a AR, you will end up burning that ammo in the proper 5.56 platform, so I wouldn't bother. 5.45 is insanely cheep, buy 1k of ammo and never buy ammo again. The 7.62 is easier to find at the gunshops (and around the world) but costs more to train with. I own and shoot both. I will never buy a 5.56 AK. My advice is 5.45, "the poison bullet". It never has failed to impress me with Its lethality and accuracy.

[BillR]

the 5.45 x39 is boring, stick with AR15 . Get the 7.62x39, its the classic AK , like the 1911 it will always be around.

[RepeatDefender]

the 5.45 x39 is boring, stick with AR15 . Get the 7.62x39, its the classic AK , like the 1911 it will always be around.

Boring hell!! The 5.45 is the most fun I've had in a rifle in a LONG time. My father, with his arthritis and my girlfriend, with her aversion to recoil; highly enjoy the 5.45 AK, it's accuracy and lack of heavy recoil. This is one of the best firearms investments I've ever made. She's even thinking of taking a carbine class with the 5.45 AK...now that is results! :D

[sinlessorrow]

Whats the recoil like on the 5.56 AK?

[Jay Cunningham]

Whats the recoil like on the 5.56 AK?

Unbearable.



Okay it's not bad.

[sinlessorrow]

Unbearable.



Okay it's not bad.

I mean how does it compare to 5.45?

[Moose-Knuckle]

so im looking to get an AK

i plan to pick up a stock, standard arsenal, but my question is what caliber?

7.62x39(SGL-21)
5.45x39(SGL-31)
5.56x45(SLR-106FR)

what would be your choice?

ETA: all my current rifles are ar-15's

Your first AK should be 7.62x39 and if you are only going to have one, again it should be 7.62x39.

SGL-21 is the winner.

[DeltaSierra]

thanks for all the reply's

if i got the 106 i would def buy a bunch of those bulgi K-Var mags....the clear ones:D

im really leaning towards it for ammo availability, is it reliable with steel cased ammo? its about all i run for range use


No, don't get the clear ones.... They tend to crack, and not last as well as the black Circle 10 magazines....


My 106 has run fine with Brown Bear and Wolf. I have had exactly one malfunction, and that was when I was shooting some Wolf Black Box last year, and got a stuck case, which was easily fixed with the heel of my boot applied to the cocking handle.....:D

[Ratfink]

7.62 im a big fan of it never let me down

[BaronFitz]

No, don't get the clear ones.... They tend to crack, and not last as well as the black Circle 10 magazines....


My 106 has run fine with Brown Bear and Wolf. I have had exactly one malfunction, and that was when I was shooting some Wolf Black Box last year, and got a stuck case, which was easily fixed with the heel of my boot applied to the cocking handle.....:D

What he said about the clear Circle 10 5.56 mags. I have quite a few myself, and they're lots of fun, as well as practical for being able to tell ammo remaining at a glance, but they do crack. If you get some, do so with the understanding that they're fun toys, and get plenty of black ones that will last.

I have an SLR-106F and an SLR-105R. Love both of them. The 106 AK-100 type folding stock is in my opinion the apex of AK folders out there, but it's really too long a pull when wearing armor. The 105 has a Magpul CTR stock on it, and adjusts much better, but doesn't fold up ridiculously compactly like the 106.

The 5.45 gun will have the edge over the 5.56 gun in inherent reliability, because the 5.45 cartridge is much more tapered than the 5.56, and will feed more reliably. The 5.56 gun requires a proper feed ramp, or you'll have failures to feed (like I did before having work done on my 106).

You ask if steel case will be fine in the 106...in my opinion, it actually enhances feeding reliability because the case is more rigid than brass cased. My 106 is 100% reliable, but it does tend to ding and dent brass casings.

I find the recoil of both to be comparable, with the 5.45 slightly softer, as expected.

Not going to tell you what to get, but for ballistic commonality, you can zero both the 5.56 and 5.45 to a 50/200 yard zero fairly easily, and remember your hold overs from shooting an AR. The 7.62 isn't as flat shooting.

A side note you won't see mentioned too often around here is that the 5.56 and 5.45 aren't legal deer rounds in some states (like VA), whereas you could conceivably hunt with a 7.62 if you were thinking of pulling double duty with it, as long as the muzzle velocity meets requirements.

[sinlessorrow]

I want to thank everyone for all their input.

Ive decided to get the 7.62x39 AK, i feel itll be something different than my AR's

[anthony1]

Get the 762, isnt that the best reason to get the AK? Unless you just wanna blast away for cheap and if thats the case 22lr is cheap as shit.

Dont get me wrong, l own both a 762 and 545. The only thing the 545 has going for it is cheap surplus ammo. It sucks compared to even 556. It could be great, IF, and thats a BIG IF- somebody would start making bullets for it! Seriously, get a 223/556, pick between hundreds of factory loads and whatever you can come up with, 545 is limited to surplus or some type of golden or silver animal.

[mkmckinley]

Congrats on spending the money to get it right the first time by getting a good AK. I'd say it depends on what you're going to do with the weapon. If you're going to train with it a hell of a lot the 5.45 would be great because you'll save a lot on ammo. I think it was Rob_S awhile back that totaled up the costs and found the 5.45 would save quite a bit over time. I believe shoots a metric shit ton though. 5.45 isn't necessarily a bad defensive round but I'm pretty sure there are better alternatives. If you're planning on using an AK as a primary defensive weapon you might consider 5.56 for the selection of modern bullets, capacity, and recoil manageability. Obviously 5.56 might be a little more expensive if that's an issue. You'll also always be able to find 5.56 but that may not be true of 5.45. I'm pretty sure it's all imported. If you like the 7.62 it's a good cartridge round too, inexpensive and effective. It's also produced domestically if I'm not mistaken by Hornady among others.

Personally I chose 7.62X39 for both of my AKs. I wanted to train with a weapon similar to one I might encounter overseas so I bought an SGL-21. The only problem was the SGL eventually turned into a state of the art AK "build" and I had to buy a Hungarian to keep stock and use for training.

[96 SS]

Ah the endless AK must be XXX caliber argument.

I'll tell you what - you go stand down range and we will fire YYY at you and you can tell us if it is good enough.




/RANT

[DeltaSierra]

Look, we all know that 7,62x39, 5,45x39 and 5,56x45 are effective anti-personnel rounds...

The issue here is not the calibers (why should someones first/only AK be 7,62 or 5,45??) as all the calibers in question are known to be quite effective.


If the OP has a reason to go with one or the other, that is his choice, but I see no reason why any of the above calibers are "better" than the next one, unless he is considering the logistical aspects....

[Moose-Knuckle]

It could be great, IF, and thats a BIG IF- somebody would start making bullets for it! Seriously, get a 223/556, pick between hundreds of factory loads and whatever you can come up with, 545 is limited to surplus or some type of golden or silver animal.

Hornady 5.45X39 60 gr V-MAX™ (http://www.hornady.com/store/5.45X39-60-gr-V-MAX-Steel-Case/)

[DeltaSierra]

Hornady 5.45X39 60 gr V-MAX™ (http://www.hornady.com/store/5.45X39-60-gr-V-MAX-Steel-Case/)

Thanks for posting that link.

I didn't realize that Hornady was selling this stuff, so I'll have to pick some up to try in my Arsenal 5.45 rifles.....

[Moose-Knuckle]

Thanks for posting that link.

I didn't realize that Hornady was selling this stuff, so I'll have to pick some up to try in my Arsenal 5.45 rifles.....

Glad I could be of assistance. I find it for $19.99-$29.99 per 50 round box.

[DeltaSierra]

Glad I could be of assistance. I find it for $19.99-$29.99 per 50 round box.

I have questions for you about this ammo, but I'll send you a P.M. rather than hijack this thread with my somewhat off topic and irrelevant ramblings....

:p

[CumbiaDude]

The only thing the 545 has going for it is cheap surplus ammo. It sucks compared to even 556.I used to think so too ("5.45 is just 5.56 that never fragments"), but then I learned some more. Turns out the 5.45 is much better when yawing than 5.56. Sure, 5.56 can fragment and in that case it's better than either 7.62 or 5.45 FMJ, but at longer range (or even close up with the lower velocities of a very short weapon) the 5.45 will be better than the non-fragmenting 5.56. The 5.45 will yaw around 90°, then continue on sideways for a considerable distance. It doesn't just flip tail-first like most spitzer rounds, it actually crushes through on its side.

Here's one example of what even surplus 5.45 will do. (http://www.brassfetcher.com/545x39mmBulgarian53grFMJ.html)

[Redmanfms]

I prefer 5.56mm. I have several SLR-106s including 2 SBR AK-102 clones. They have all proven to be excellent weapons. The first rifle I bought has approaching 25,000 rounds through it. The original Bulgarian finish is toast, rubbed off, flaked off quite a while ago, but the rifle shoots very well.

I've never had a failure of any sort with any of the 106s using Bulgarian magazines.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I used to think so too ("5.45 is just 5.56 that never fragments"), but then I learned some more. Turns out the 5.45 is much better when yawing than 5.56. Sure, 5.56 can fragment and in that case it's better than either 7.62 or 5.45 FMJ, but at longer range (or even close up with the lower velocities of a very short weapon) the 5.45 will be better than the non-fragmenting 5.56. The 5.45 will yaw around 90°, then continue on sideways for a considerable distance. It doesn't just flip tail-first like most spitzer rounds, it actually crushes through on its side.

Here's one example of what even surplus 5.45 will do. (http://www.brassfetcher.com/545x39mmBulgarian53grFMJ.html)

During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the Mujahideen dubbed it the “poison bullet” due to its wound cavitation.

[Redmanfms]

During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the Mujahideen dubbed it the “poison bullet” due to its wound cavitation.

Actually, the translation has been mangled to imply that it had significant lethality. The direct translation from pashto is something more like "stinging bullet" in that they were comparing it to a wasp sting.

The terminal performance of the 5.45mm is no more significant than the 5.56mm and the rumors of its "poison bullet" effect are much like the Vietnam-era myths about the M-16 blowing off legs and "ricocheting" inside peoples' bodies.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Actually, the translation has been mangled to imply that it had significant lethality. The direct translation from pashto is something more like "stinging bullet" in that they were comparing it to a wasp sting.

I never interpreted that way.

The story I always read (flawed as it maybe) went something like . . .

Before the Soviets invasion the rounds that were commonly encountered were .303 British and 7.62x39. They were used to treating people with wounds made by those rounds. Due to the 5.45x39’s tendency to yaw the wounds that people historically healed from were now fatal due to the infection that set in areas inside the body that they could not get too. Poison for infection as it were.

[bondmid003]

I bought an SGL 21-61. I figured if I'm only going to get one AK it might as well be in 7.62. She shoots like a dream, you honestly can't go wrong as long as its an Arsenal

[ryr8828]

I used to think so too ("5.45 is just 5.56 that never fragments"), but then I learned some more. Turns out the 5.45 is much better when yawing than 5.56. Sure, 5.56 can fragment and in that case it's better than either 7.62 or 5.45 FMJ, but at longer range (or even close up with the lower velocities of a very short weapon) the 5.45 will be better than the non-fragmenting 5.56. The 5.45 will yaw around 90°, then continue on sideways for a considerable distance. It doesn't just flip tail-first like most spitzer rounds, it actually crushes through on its side.

Here's one example of what even surplus 5.45 will do. (http://www.brassfetcher.com/545x39mmBulgarian53grFMJ.html)


Your link doesn't show a comparison to 5.56. I saw an episode of one of Vicker's shows that I thought proved that the 5.45's superiority to the 5.56 was pretty much a myth.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Thanks for the thread. Sometime in three weeks I'll be getting a SGL-31. Already have a SKS for the 7.62, and like it was said before, those AK's a re very plentiful. As Larry Vickers said in his AK segiment with U.S. Palm, "My grandchildren will be seeing this rifle on the battlefield..." (well, something akin to that).

I['m going for the 5.45 while the ammo is cheap, the rifles are here.

Anyone have any experience with Tombstone Tactical?

[CumbiaDude]

Your link doesn't show a comparison to 5.56.It does if you click on .223.... It's the one right above 5.45 on the left there....

Here's M855 [[link]] (http://www.brassfetcher.com/M855bareblock1.html)

Here's the rest of the .223/5.56 [[link]] (http://www.brassfetcher.com/223REM.html)

Comparing the two results, the 5.45 crushes tissues sideways for its track between 2.5" and 8.8", and again between 9.0" and when it exits the rear of the block at 16".

The M855 flipped at 1.9" then continued 'til 14.1".


I saw an episode of one of Vicker's shows that I thought proved that the 5.45's superiority to the 5.56 was pretty much a myth.Here's the video you refer to. [[link]] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y7RHbWLLpQ&t=9m31s)

All he's doing is looking at the rounds themselves and how they're both squashed in similar ways. He doesn't at all look at the permanent cavity or talk at all about what the round itself did. Hardly proof of anything.

Also, I never said 5.45 was superior to 5.56. I said 5.45 was better than 5.56 that doesn't fragment (or are you disputing that a bullet traveling sideways can crush more tissue than the same bullet going base first? :confused:)

[discreet]

Boring hell!! The 5.45 is the most fun I've had in a rifle in a LONG time. My father, with his arthritis and my girlfriend, with her aversion to recoil; highly enjoy the 5.45 AK, it's accuracy and lack of heavy recoil. This is one of the best firearms investments I've ever made. She's even thinking of taking a carbine class with the 5.45 AK...now that is results! :D

Wait, because your father with arthritis and your girlfriend who fears recoil have fun with something, it makes it a hoot to shoot for others? And an AK recoiling hard? :lol: They don't recoil much harder than an AR IMO. At least from my opinion though. Of course this is from the standpoint of target shooting with slower semi. Now if your cranking on the trigger, or using full auto, I can see the recoil adding up quickly.


Glad I could be of assistance. I find it for $19.99-$29.99 per 50 round box.

:eek: That's the same price as the overpriced stock 5.7 rounds!