View Full Version : Okay to call a non Colt AR-15 an M4?
GLP Standard
12-06-07, 03:12
This may be a stupid question. This may have even been discussed before. If it has, I hate to beat a dead horse. Its all a matter of opinion I'm sure. I know my opinion on it, but I want to hear other peoples opinions.
I understand fully the difference between an AR-15, an M16 and an M4. I know that a true M16 or M4 are only made by Colt, are select fire, and have either a 20" (M16) or 14.5" (M4) barrel. I also know that an AR-15 is a pretty general term for any M16 or M4 type rifle made available to civilians, in a semi-auto configuration.
Now, my question is, do you consider it okay to refer to an AR-15, setup like an M4, as an "M4", or is it best to call it an AR-15 to avoid confusion, and to not get flamed by gun gurus who are in the mood to prove someone wrong? By being "setup like an M4" I mean with an M4 stock, and a 16" barrel or shorter. I guess the same could go for an M16. Would it be okay to call an AR-15 with a 20" barrel and a fixed stock an M16?
I don't like to pretend I have something I don't, but calling my rifle an M4 to someone who has never seen it before gives them a pretty good idea of what it looks like without having to describe it. And after all, the only notable differences are its not made by Colt, the barrel is a little bit longer, and its not select fire. I hate the term M4gery, and I just wish there was something else I could call my AR besides AR-15 to better describe its features. Before I got my AR, I told a guy at work that I wanted to get an M4, and he went on to enlighten me with all his vast knowledge, of whats involved in owning a "Class III Weapon" :rolleyes: including getting a "Class III license" which costs "a shitload of money" and involves "tons of paperwork". I really don't see anything wrong with calling an AR-15 with a shorter barrel, and an M4 stock an M4
DANGER CLOSE
12-06-07, 04:14
if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it must be a chicken! i say that a carbine that appears like an m4 can be called an m4, and that a rifle that looks like an m16 can be called an m16. i do for mine.
sometimes i have to refer to my m1a as an m14 so that people can understand me when i am talking about my socom 16. same goes for my para lmtd, which i just call a 1911 and then explain about the wider receiver.
uh-oh, i said all that (sarcasm guys). is every ak considered an ak47, what about the other models and calibers. just because its not select fire and made in russia.
i dont see the big deal in the verbage. we have already lost out to the lefties in regards to verbage regarding assault weapons, gun violence/control, snipers, ied's, terrorists, definition of perjury, inhaling, in god we trust, separation of church and state, etc.
:rolleyes:
Army Chief
12-06-07, 04:28
I suppose this is one of those issues that certain people have strong feelings about, and yes, there have been corporate lawsuits over exactly who can call what an M4, etc.
The common sense rule of thumb in these parts seems to be that terms like M4 are describing a general configuration, and it isn't terribly important whether the weapon was made by Colt or a competitor -- some of the latter being far better than others, of course.
In my mind, an "AR-15" refers generally to a 20" barrelled semi-automatic rifle with a fixed buttstock.
16" barrelled carbines with telescoping buttstocks are probably best described as "AR-15 Carbines," as Colt set this common-sense precedent in their own marketing.
Others may disagree, of course, but when I hear "M4," it calls to mind one of two things: in select-fire configuration, a 14.5" barrelled carbine with the characteristic stepped-barrel for installation of the M-203, or in a semi-automatic configuration, a 16" barrelled carbine with the same barrel profile.
Shorter barrels (NFA guns) are generally referred to by the nomenclatures that Colt established for weapons of this class (i.e. "Commando."), or simply "SBRs."
So, that begs the question: is a LMT or CMT carbine with a stepped-barrel an "M4?" Technically speaking, no -- and that's where terms like "M4gery" are sometimes used -- but in practical terms, the term M4 is accurate enough as a general description. If someone flames you for that kind of basic usage, then they are probably just being elitist and/or unnecessarily disagreeable. It's not a big deal for most of us, so long as the term used correlates to something that we understand on more-or-less baseline terms.
If you want to get really technical, you could always differentiate between A1, A2, A3 and A4 specification weapons with such qualifiers as "Government Carbine" and such, but again, these terms follow Colt's lead. Other vendors will name their models with a wide variety of alternative designations, of course, and most of these are not especially useful unless the masses are likely to have some familiarity with the actual weapon being described (a good example of the latter would be the HK 416, or to a lesser extent, the S&W M&P-15T or Noveske N4).
In any event, this is why it has become common practice to refer to a Bushmaster carbine with a stepped-barrel as an "M4" in loose terms, even though it is not -- and never will be -- a true M4. If that isn't confusing enough for you, consider that Colt doesn't even refer to their semi-auto M4 as an "M4," but instead calls it the "Law Enforcement Carbine" ... which is why many owners will specifically state that they are talking about a "LE6920" to eliminate any confusion. I'm really out there on the fringes with a LE6920HB. :)
Does any of this really make a difference? Not really, but with so many variants, configurations and manufacturers out there in the AR business these days, we've had to adopt some unofficial de facto standards to communicate effectively, and as stated, the fallback position in all of this has usually been to go with whatever Colt named a given model. (I won't go into the fact that Hartford has long made it their practice to vary things quite a bit even within their own naming conventions.) The overriding point to all of this is simply that the "M4" designation has gone mainstream to the point where it is really a reference an entire class of similar products, much like what has happened with the terms "Kleenex" or "Xerox" over the years.
So, to paraphrase Danger Close, if you've got a carbine that looks like an M4, shoots like an M4 and causes you to spend absurd amounts of money on ammo and accessories like an M4, no one here is likely to split hairs with you if it is has something other than a rampant colt on the receiver. The term "M4-type carbine" may be more useful, but it really depends upon who you're talking to, and what the context of your discussion might be.
Chief
Failure2Stop
12-06-07, 04:34
To me it depends on who I am talking to and their level of knowledge.
Naming something is a method to efficiently transmit information, not confuse the listener. Calling something an M4 may make the conversation easier for someone with a cursory knowledge of the subject, whereas talking to a member of the military or NFA knowlegable civilian may cause confusion if I call it an M4.
Jay Cunningham
12-06-07, 04:46
I use the phrase, "M4 pattern." This works with other platforms as well:
AK-74 pattern
FAL pattern
etc.
Works for me and is fairly precise.
It depends if it's chrome lined! :rolleyes:
Robb Jensen
12-06-07, 08:04
It depends if it's chrome lined! :rolleyes:
Naw dude, it matters if it's 'mil-spec' and has Krylon! ;)
I understand fully the difference between an AR-15, an M16 and an M4. I know that a true M16 or M4 are only made by Colt, are select fire, and have either a 20" (M16) or 14.5" (M4) barrel.
Not to be pedantic, but a true M16 does not have to be made by Colt. FNH has the contract for the current issue M16s. M4s do come solely through Colt at the moment. I believe the government in their mil-specs define each of these weapons.
Chad
toddackerman
12-06-07, 08:51
I use the term..."AR15 Carbine" with those in the shooting fraternity, or to those who are less inclined to be "Open" to "Gun Talk", my "Rifle" to describe my 16" LMT MRP. Any firearm that is shoulder mounted, has a barrel of 16" or longer, and shoots a single projectile is a technically a "Rifle"...isn't it?
I really dislike people calling things by incorrect names, either as a result of sloopiness or deceit. "AK-47" comes to mind....
The M4 is one of them, but the other problem is some Colt semi-auto guns are actually marked "M4" so they are NOT incorrect when they call it an M4.
The M4 is one of them, but the other problem is some Colt semi-auto guns are actually marked "M4" so they are NOT incorrect when they call it an M4.
This is a huge problem. I'm going to write the ATF for an opinion on the matter.
Jay Cunningham
12-06-07, 11:07
This is a huge problem. I'm going to write the ATF for an opinion on the matter.
If I didn't know any better, I would say that you're being a wise-ass now.
;)
I'm sure that you would be cool with calling this an "M4", right?
Olympic Arms K3B-M4 - M4 AR-15 Carbine
http://www.olyarms.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/ar15-carbines/full-k3b-m4.jpg
Words matter, and have meaning. They have correct and incorrect usage. We should endeavor to use them correctly. People may not share that value, but that doesn't render the issue a matter of opinion or preference.
Proper use of nomenclature and terminology is what distinguishes some from others, and helps in assigning measures of credibility, knowledge, and related values.
"M4gery"
I thought that was the term everyone used.
I'm sure that you would be cool with calling this an "M4", right?
Olympic Arms K3B-M4 - M4 AR-15 Carbine
Oh boy! That is uncalled for!
ThirdWatcher
12-06-07, 15:02
I refer to my Colt 6920 as an M-4, and the people that matter to me know what I'm talking about. I couldn't afford to feed a real one anyway.
If I ever tried to sell it (perish the thought!) I would refer to it as a 6920 LE carbine, as I have no intent to defraud anyone.
interesting thread,ive been wondering myself.
....at this point im still so excited about my new baby,that i go ahead and take the time to explain what it is in detail to those interested(and some not so interested).:D
Robb Jensen
12-06-07, 15:59
I sometimes call anything with an M4 profile barrel an "M4".
Anything without an M4 barrel I call an "AR".
I sometimes call anything with an M4 profile barrel an "M4".
Anything without an M4 barrel I call an "AR".
This is more or less what I do, and makes the most sense to me. There are so many different configurations and model numbers that being correct in what you call it doesn't seem very valuable to me. I pretty much call them all AR's, and if someone wants to talk about specs of parts that is fine.
Jhonson and Jhonson is the only company that make's Bandaids.and Colt is the only one who makes M4's . my MT6400c (now 6920 spec) has M4 engraved on the reciever and it is not an M4 due to the large pins and 16 inch barrel, and the shelf and fcg . so even Colt doesn't know what an M4 is .
FNH has the contract for the current issue M16s. .
Chad
That isn't entirely true.
In my mind, an "AR-15" refers generally to a 20" barrelled semi-automatic rifle with a fixed buttstock.
That is deceptive and misleading.
When I hear someone refer to an AR-15 and M16 being different weapons, that is a sign of an amateur.
If it aint Colt it aint...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Afghan%20Take%20II/Kevin078.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Afghan%20Take%20II/Kevin115.jpg
:D
That isn't entirely true.
Care to post details?
The latest SAR had an interview with the head dude at Colt and in that article it said Colt was doing the M4s exclusively and FN had the M16 (maybe not exclusively)
thanks!
Chad
Here is the most correct terminology.
The AR-15 is a family of weapons in which the M16 is apart of along with the M4.
An AR-15 is not a "semi auto only" version of a M16.
The AR-15 family consists of full auto, semi auto, long, medium, and short version of the same gun.
The M4 is not a "carbine version" of a M16. An M4 is a select fire AR-15 variant that is used by the military.
Furthermore, a full auto AR-15 variant does not make it an M16.
The models on Colts website are not M16s or M4s either. They are commercial/export models.
The only variants that are truly M16s or M4s say "Property of the US Government" on the side of them.
Care to post details?
The latest SAR had an interview with the head dude at Colt and in that article it said Colt was doing the M4s exclusively and FN had the M16 (maybe not exclusively)
thanks!
Chad
A common myth perpetuated in the firearms community is Colt no longer makes M16s, only M4s.
Colt has made M16s in continuous batches from 1964 until the present day.
Colt has made more M16A2s than FN.
Colt has made more M16A3s than FN.
Colt has made more M16A4s than FN.
The M4 (920) and M4A1 (921/921HB) carbines and their commercial counterparts (977, 978, and 979) are the modern day descendants of the Colt line of select fire carbine sized AR-15s beginning with the 65X series of carbines in the early 1970s.
Here is the most correct terminology.
The AR-15 is a family of weapons in which the M16 is apart of along with the M4.
An AR-15 is not a "semi auto only" version of a M16.
The AR-15 family consists of full auto, semi auto, long, medium, and short version of the same gun.
The M4 is not a "carbine version" of a M16. An M4 is a select fire AR-15 variant that is used by the military.
Furthermore, a full auto AR-15 variant does not make it an M16.
The models on Colts website are not M16s or M4s either. They are commercial/export models.
The only variants that are truly M16s or M4s say "Property of the US Government" on the side of them.
I agree. I am most certainly out of my league here when it comes to keeping up with the minutae of these things, but the above quote from scottryan pretty well captures how I always understood it. The AR family of weapons, as originally conceived and designed by Eugene Stoner, were designated "Armalite Rifles" - 10, 15, 16 etc. and now have evolved to include not only the original Armalite Co., but Colt as well as many other different makes, types and variants.
I liken it to another well known service rifle, the M1 Garand. My analogy may be flawed, but a U.S. Service Rifle M1 Garand made by Springfield Armory, Winchester, Int'l Harvester, etc is still an M1 Garand is it not? What about a civilian made M1 such as those made by Springfield Inc? For descriptive puposes, they're all Garands to me. Maybe we should call our rifles "Stoners"?
I dunno, but I tend to agree that, even though I'd like to be able to use one simple term to describe the weapons, it really does boil down to who you are speaking with and their level of knowledge in order to avoid confusion. I've tried everything, and usually get the "deer-in-the-headlights" look when I use anything other than the term AR-15 or M16.
To quote St. Ambrose "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". So when I'm speaking with some dizzy-cow liberal, I try to refer to it as my "righteous defense implement" :rolleyes:
Amongst my associates and I, the term "AR" works fine for the most part, and we all know what it means, Colt, LMT or otherwise. If someone asks what kind of AR I have, I will describe it's attributes further (ie. CAR-15, XM177, M4, etc)
Works for me.
DANGER CLOSE
12-07-07, 03:45
whoa, army chief. can you dumb that down for us jarhead grunts. j/k.
btw,
quack quack pow (m4/m16 going off) kind of sounds like the martial art of ching chang pow.:)
Army Chief
12-07-07, 05:33
Yep, I did get a bit verbose there, didn't I? LOL Guess I just didn't want this to digress into a pointless knife fight about who's really got what, and why it's emphatically right/wrong to use any particular term.
Since I'm a former grunt myself, here is the K.I.S.S. version as seen by yours truly:
AR-15(-type) rifle suggests a full length semi-auto.
M-16(-type) rifle suggests an NFA/select-fire AR-15.
CAR-15(-type) rifle suggests a 16" bbl and a telescoping stock.
M4(-type) in civil guise suggests a CAR-15 with a characteristic M203-stepped bbl.
While these are fairly generic, and in some cases, potentially misleading terms, I still think this trifecta covers the majority of what's out there right now. Truth is, if we apply a more limited definition, correct as it may be, then this forum is named for a weapon that relatively few us of will shoot, and none of us will actually own (no, I'm not counting Post-'86 dealer samples for Title II SOTs, since that isn't really ownership).
Now you know why I usually just say "AR carbine." ;)
Chief
Since I'm a former grunt myself, here is the K.I.S.S. version as seen by yours truly:
AR-15(-type) rifle suggests a full length semi-auto.
M-16(-type) rifle suggests an NFA/select-fire AR-15.
CAR-15(-type) rifle suggests a 16" bbl and a telescoping stock.
M4(-type) in civil guise suggests a CAR-15 with a characteristic M203-stepped bbl.
You need to change.:)
Whenever I'm working with somebody, and they have a select fire variant. I will ask to see their AR-15, if they correct me and say its not an AR-15, but an M16, then I know the knowledge level at which the said person is operating at.
I use this tell tail technique to find out how much one really knows.
Army Chief
12-07-07, 08:13
You need to change.:)
LOL You're probably right, but I guess we need to decide if we're talking about broad-sweeping generalities or legitimate hair-splitting among semi-informed peers. I'm referring to purely colloquial/informal/slang usage, but as a matter of employing correct nomenclature, I agree entirely with your position.
Chief
Failure2Stop
12-07-07, 08:14
Whenever I'm working with somebody, and they have a select fire variant. I will ask to see their AR-15, if they correct me and say its not an AR-15, but an M16, then I know the knowledge level at which the said person is operating at.
I use this tell tail technique to find out how much one really knows.
But now that you told the unwashed masses about this, they will be able to deceive you into thinking that they know what they are talking about :eek:
But then, how important is the minutia? Does calling a 6921 an M4 make me ineffective with the weapon? At what point do I cease be helpful and start to be a nitpicky know-it-all?
Is a DPMS an M4? Nope. Nor do I want anyone else to percieve it to be. It is more important that my words convey meaning to the other person more than to satisfy myself that I know more about the TDP and Colt model numbers than he does.
I think that there is a vast gulf between "knowledgable" and "effective", I would rather be considered to be effective;
effective communicator/effective shooter.
Still trying to improve on both.
I sometimes call anything with an M4 profile barrel an "M4".
Anything without an M4 barrel I call an "AR".
Ok..Robb
what should I call my Carbine ?
If it aint Colt it aint...
Showoff! :p
LOL You're probably right, but I guess we need to decide if we're talking about broad-sweeping generalities or legitimate hair-splitting among semi-informed peers. I'm referring to purely colloquial/informal/slang usage, but as a matter of employing correct nomenclature, I agree entirely with your position.
Chief
Yes I agree that most of this is being fast and loose with the terminology and I do that myself.
However, an informed person such as ourselves shouldn't be thinking an AR-15 and M16 is a different weapon in their head.
But now that you told the unwashed masses about this, they will be able to deceive you into thinking that they know what they are talking about :eek:
But then, how important is the minutia? Does calling a 6921 an M4 make me ineffective with the weapon? At what point do I cease be helpful and start to be a nitpicky know-it-all?
Is a DPMS an M4? Nope. Nor do I want anyone else to percieve it to be. It is more important that my words convey meaning to the other person more than to satisfy myself that I know more about the TDP and Colt model numbers than he does.
I think that there is a vast gulf between "knowledgable" and "effective", I would rather be considered to be effective;
effective communicator/effective shooter.
Still trying to improve on both.
I know what you mean. I operate with the fast and loose terminology most of the time.
What I have a problem with is people who can't understand that an "M16" is an AR-15.
Failure2Stop
12-07-07, 10:06
I know what you mean. I operate with the fast and loose terminology most of the time.
What I have a problem with is people who can't understand that an "M16" is an AR-15.
Understood and appreciated.
I have been guilty of incorrect mental separation of the two. I viewed the AR as a descendent of the M16, though as you point out, it is the other way around. So technically, it is even more of a sin to refer to anything other than a Gov Prop M4 as an M4 than I previously felt.
Maybe this all started with the identifiaction of a series of weapons as "civilian-legal AR-15s", where suddenly the series was percieved as entirely civilian legal if it was an AR-15, whereas it is really a civilian legal series of AR-15s.
Maybe we should just go back to calling them all "guns"?
However, an informed person such as ourselves shouldn't be thinking an AR-15 and M16 is a different weapon in their head.
They can be though. I have a "Colt M16" and a "Colt AR-15" (says so right on the side, as well as the paperwork), both are factory guns and they are very different. They both descend from the same lineage. It is also possible to have a "Colt AR-15" and a "Colt M16", and they are the same identical gun.
The problem is the terms are used so loosely by both the MFG that they have lost some meaning.
They can be though. I have a "Colt M16" and a "Colt AR-15" (says so right on the side, as well as the paperwork), both are factory guns and they are very different. They both descend from the same lineage. It is also possible to have a "Colt AR-15" and a "Colt M16", and they are the same identical gun.
The problem is the terms are used so loosely by both the MFG that they have lost some meaning.
By that reasoning, then what is a M16 that also says AR-15 on the side of it?
How is an M16 "very different" than an AR-15? An AR-15 is not descended from anything. It is an all encompassing term, an umbrella, not a specific model.
Most "M16s" that people own are not M16s, they are commerial/export versions or SP1 conversions. It doesn't matter what it says on the side of the lower or the paperwork.
Like I said, the guns on Colt's military website are not M16s or M4s even though they say that on the side of the lower. The only reason why they say that is advertising. An M16 is not a Colt specific gun. It is a US military designation.
Maybe we should just go back to calling them all "guns"?
I just call them rifles and carbines.
HolyRoller
12-07-07, 11:27
According to http://www.colt.com/law/legal.asp , Colt Defense LLC has registered the following trademarks or service marks with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office: AR-15, HBAR, MATCH TARGET, COMMANDO, CAR, M16, M203, XM177E2. Colt Defense LLC has rights under a licensing agreement with New Colt Holding Corporation and Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC to the following trademarks or service marks: COLT, COLT (Stylized C), NONE (Rampant Colt Design), COLT AR-15, COLT AR-15 AND DESIGN. Registered with the European Union are: COLT M4, COLT M16, COLT M203.
So not only all M4s, but also all AR-15s and M16s, either come from Colt or from somebody who pays royalties to Colt for licensing their trademark. You can build something that resembles an M4, M16, or AR-15, but you have to call it something else, sort of like "Gnarnia" in Epic Movie.
Whenever I'm working with somebody, and they have a select fire variant. I will ask to see their AR-15, if they correct me and say its not an AR-15, but an M16, then I know the knowledge level at which the said person is operating at.
I use this tell tail [you mean "telltale"] technique to find out how much one really knows.
Yes, I once thought this was supremely important myself. I also used to get quite irate when people called MP38/40 submachine guns "Schmeissers" or AKMs "AK-47s" or Tec-9s "Uzis" or M1911 pistols ".45s" or single-shot shotguns "single-barrels" or any lever-action rifles ".30-30s" or didn't know that .38s are really .357s or didn't know that Dirty Harry admitted to loading his .44 Magnum with .44 Specials or pronounced "Garand" to rhyme with LeGrand instead of Errand.
Then I entered the 10th grade. I also have discovered that time on the range is better spent looking at my front sight instead of everybody else's selector markings.
I refer to my S&W M&P-15 as an M4gery around my Army friends, which always gets them to laughing hysterically. I explain that it's like an M4 except for no full-auto and a slightly longer barrel. Few non-gun people outside the military have any idea what an M4 is, because it's not a household word like M16 or AK47 or .45 even Schmeisser.
In common usage, at least among those of us old enough to remember when Colt wasn't a hostage to politics and didn't call everything a Sporter or Target or Match rifle, M16 means a select or burst fire rifle because that's what the Army called it, and AR-15 means a semiauto only rifle meant for civilian sale because that's what Colt called it, even if the M16 is marked AR-15 and built by Harrington & Richardson.
And now, like all of you need to do instead of arguing about ridiculous crap like what is an M4, M16, or AR-15, I'm going out to actually train with my, uhh, whatever the thing is in the trunk that eats up all my 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Remington ammo.
Army Chief
12-07-07, 11:34
[wild applause]
Well said, HolyRoller.
Chief
According to http://www.colt.com/law/legal.asp , Colt Defense LLC has registered the following trademarks or service marks with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office: AR-15, HBAR, MATCH TARGET, COMMANDO, CAR, M16, M203, XM177E2. Colt Defense LLC has rights under a licensing agreement with New Colt Holding Corporation and Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC to the following trademarks or service marks: COLT, COLT (Stylized C), NONE (Rampant Colt Design), COLT AR-15, COLT AR-15 AND DESIGN. Registered with the European Union are: COLT M4, COLT M16, COLT M203.
You don't think I've ever seen this before. :rolleyes:
So not only all M4s, but also all AR-15s and M16s, either come from Colt or from somebody who pays royalties to Colt for licensing their trademark. You can build something that resembles an M4, M16, or AR-15, but you have to call it something else, sort of like "Gnarnia" in Epic Movie.
The phrase "M16A1" or "M4" is not a trademark of any company. It is a US military designation.
Yes, I once thought this was supremely important myself. I also used to get quite irate when people called MP38/40 submachine guns "Schmeissers" or AKMs "AK-47s" or Tec-9s "Uzis"
An AKM and an AK47 are different variations of the same gun.
A Tec 9 is not in any way related to an UZI.
In common usage, ... M16 means a select or burst fire rifle because that's what the Army called it, and AR-15 means a semiauto only rifle meant for civilian sale because that's what Colt called it,
I never argued otherwise if talking about common usage or slang..
By that reasoning, then what is a M16 that also says AR-15 on the side of it?
How is an M16 "very different" than an AR-15? An AR-15 is not descended from anything. It is an all encompassing term, an umbrella, not a specific model.
Most "M16s" that people own are not M16s, they are commerial/export versions or SP1 conversions. It doesn't matter what it says on the side of the lower or the paperwork.
Like I said, the guns on Colt's military website are not M16s or M4s even though they say that on the side of the lower. The only reason why they say that is advertising. An M16 is not a Colt specific gun. It is a US military designation.
You are confusing the fact that both the DOD and Colt lawfully and correctly use the "M16" term. Colt has a trademark on the terms "AR-15", "M16", so yes they are "AR-15", " M16". Thus you need to specify which entity you mean. If Chevy decides to make a truck and call it "M16", then it IS an M16. The "AR-15" below is a descendant of the Colt "M16", which is a descendent of the original "Armalite AR-15".
http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/Info/SillyPeople/CopWithAR.jpg
HolyRoller
12-07-07, 12:52
Wow, thanks, ArmyChief. I try to stay on the good side of all warrant officers, as I learned from the time I tried to steal a CWO-4's girlfriend. That did not turn out well.
Scott, I know a Tec-9 is in no way related to an Uzi (also a registered trademark), which is why I got so annoyed when people called it an Uzi. Yes, an AK-47 and an AKM are two models of the same gun, but an AKM is not an AK-47, there are differences, and that's why I got so annoyed when people called an AKM, Chinese Type 56, Yugo M70, etc. etc. an AK-47. But it's not as important to call things exactly the right designation as it is to learn to hit with them and win fights.
Time spent worrying about model numbers is time you're not on the range. In the time you spent writing that post, I did dryfire drills, standing to kneeling at 50 and headshots at 25, as part of working toward passing the MEU(SOC) M4 qual. Time I'm spending writing this is time I'm not getting to the gym so I can go standing-kneeling-prone without having an asthma attack. Not to mention time not doing anything that makes money so I can live-fire more.
How about this: M16, M4, M203 are BOTH military AND Colt designations, and now let's step away from the keyboard and go do something that makes us into the fearsome warriors that all free men should be.
Army Chief
12-07-07, 12:56
... I try to stay on the good side of all warrant officers, as I learned from the time I tried to steal a CWO-4's girlfriend ...
Well, I'm a CW4, but my wife won't let me have a girlfriend, so you've nothing to fear on my account. ;)
Chief
You are confusing the fact that both the DOD and Colt lawfully and correctly use the "M16" term. Colt has a trademark on the terms "AR-15", "M16", so yes they are "AR-15", " M16". Thus you need to specify which entity you mean. If Chevy decides to make a truck and call it "M16", then it IS an M16. The "AR-15" below is a descendant of the Colt "M16", which is a descendent of the original "Armalite AR-15".
I'm not confused about anything.
The AR-15 in that ad is the beginning of Colts line of semi auto AR-15s based of the original Armalite AR-15.
Time spent worrying about model numbers is time you're not on the range. In the time you spent writing that post, I did dryfire drills, standing to kneeling at 50 and headshots at 25, as part of working toward passing the MEU(SOC) M4 qual. Time I'm spending writing this is time I'm not getting to the gym so I can go standing-kneeling-prone without having an asthma attack. Not to mention time not doing anything that makes money so I can live-fire more.
Ok :rolleyes:
http://www.texassmallarmsresearch.com/Info/SillyPeople/CopWithAR.jpg
does that poor guy have his thumb stuck in the front sight
BushmasterFanBoy
12-08-07, 18:25
I don't really like calling anything an M4, it's like calling a WASR 10 an AK47; it's slang and lacks description. I generally use the barrel length as an indicator of what gun I'm talking about, (ie a 14.5, a 16, or a 20 "incher") with "AR" used as something of a suffix. (like "Hey I saw this 20 inch AR, and man was that thing unwieldy!") I like this especially so since the variety of accessories used in the civilian shooters world means that no gun really seems to be an "exact" M4.
However, if I must speak in broad generalities (I hate doing that) then I use the term "AR 15". I think this term should be used to describe the whole family of weapons, as M16 is a govt. weapon made with a specific set of requirements that many times are not applicable to civilian rifles with varying accessories, barrel lengths, etc. The same can be said for the term "M4". While AR 15 is a Colt icon, and one could argue that like the terms m16, and M4, it is a specific product, I find the term should apply to all weapons of the Stoner DI platform, since it has become part of the lexicon of civilian gun owners, and clarifies that the weapon in question is a Stoner DI weapon, but also not a military issued weapon.
Why sure. I don't really have a problem with that. I think of M-4 as a type/or stle of weapon platform.
For those that know black rifles, I generally refer to my guns as "AR's" which is a pretty straightforward and comfortable usage. For my other friends and the uninitiated (non-gun people), I generally refer to them generally as M-16's as they most likely wouldn't know what an AR-15 is. This is usually in response to "What kinda guns do you own?" Most people seem to know what an M-16 looks like.
Of course it's wrong, but they don't know the difference!:)
Alpha Sierra
12-13-07, 06:07
Regardless of what Colt or some of its fans think, the designation M4 did not, does not, and will never belong to Colt. It belongs to the US Department of Defense.
Therefore I will call anything that looks like an M4 so. Hell, I'd do it even if Colt had a trademark, copyright, and patent on the name.
This thread really needs to be moved to TOS...
It's reached maximum stupidity.
Army Chief
12-13-07, 08:55
Concur.
I tried to take the thinking-man's approach early on, but I think the original question been asked, answered, and to beaten an unrecognizable state.
Clearly, there are a couple of divergent schools of thought here. That said, who really cares to split hairs any more? I certainly don't.
Call your (fill in the blank) whatever it says it is in the owner's manual it came with. That ought to do nicely.
Chief
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