View Full Version : Haley Skimmer trigger for Glocks?
Just came across this tonight. Thought it might be worth a posting to see if anyone's tried any early models and what the opinions are? It's evidently something Travis Haley's involved with.
I've never been one to try to "Make a Glock into a 1911" but I do like a nice trigger.
http://shop.glocktriggers.com/The-HALEY-SKIMMER-GT-13.htm
I am curious about the included spring's weights, but aside from their "unique pre-travel reduction modification" I'm not really seeing anything to justify the price over picking up a minus connector and taking the 10-20 minutes to do the polishing and saving $125 or so.
Yeah that's kinda the road I was going down reading it. But I wasn't sure if I was missing something or not.
mkmckinley
12-21-11, 02:33
So they just polish Glock factory parts? I'd like to try one before I make any judgement but if that's the case then they might be asking a little much. The term "polished to a chrome finish" sounds technically inaccurate.
deadlyfire
12-21-11, 03:02
So they just polish Glock factory parts? I'd like to try one before I make any judgement but if that's the case then they might be asking a little much. The term "polished to a chrome finish" sounds technically inaccurate.
I get the sneaking suspicion this is for Travis Haley's undying legion of fans who absolutely must have exactly what he has.
I don't see how any minus connector could ever be compared to a 1911 trigger. I like them, but the rolling break they produce is nothing like any 1911 I have ever shot. The angle on a - connector which creates the lighter pull has to reduce the crispness if the break.
This could be the best glock trigger ever but calling it 1911 like seems misleading.
M4Guru commented on another thread about shooting a modded Glock trigger system from Glocktriggers. I can't remember where it was or which it was. I personally smooth out my triggers by shooting them. Caveat..I have not used this trigger but I do not honestly see where this trigger replacement does anything except empty your wallet. For the price of 2 of these, you can almost buy another Glock.
A Glock trigger is a Glock trigger, it has it's own characteristics that that found on that trigger only. Almost every aftermarket Glock trigger manufacturer has a trigger that they state is "1911-like". It will never happen unless you take the trigger group from a 1911 and squeeze it into a Glock frame. I have 'The Edge' trigger from Glocktriggers.com in my 17 for USPSA and it's a nice trigger but it's nice trigger for a Glock and that's not a bad thing. If you want a 1911 trigger, shoot a 1911...
Another thread on this topic just below this one...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92880
There are some SME comments in that thread as well that may interest you.
Might be ok at half that price....
figure ~40 bucks worth of parts... another 40 for the polishing would still be steep, but worth it to some. 160? ouch.
It's all pretty much what I thought as well. My first year production G26 has had an ungodly amount of rounds through it with nothing but the addition of a - connector in it and I'm quite comfortable with it.
- connectors, polishing, and shooting-shoot-shoot has always been the standard I've ran by on the Glocks. And the biggest dollar factor in that equation is the ammunition...Which is the fun part at any rate.
I'll be the guinea pig. I just ordered one to give it a try.
Wish me luck...
Edit: Holy shit they shipped it out literally 10 mins after I ordered it
Cosmo,
Any chance you can make up a quick video to show the overall throw of the trigger?
Pictures dont really do these kinds of triggers justice.
Im always leery of triggers that say they do away with a large amount of pre travel. It is VERY easy to negate the drop safety in the Glock trigger housing which i absolutely refuse to do no matter how short i want to make my triggers.
Cosmo,
Any chance you can make up a quick video to show the overall throw of the trigger?
Pictures dont really do these kinds of triggers justice.
Im always leery of triggers that say they do away with a large amount of pre travel. It is VERY easy to negate the drop safety in the Glock trigger housing which i absolutely refuse to do no matter how short i want to make my triggers.
Magz,
Sure thing man, only if you tell Randy to hurry up with the Gen 4 extractor fix :p
I'm was planning on doing a side by side photo comparison between the stock components and the HSP (Skimmer) components.
I can do a video as well since I have two stock Glock 19 Gen 4s
There is a pretty good thread about this on Warriortalk and the difference in a glock and 1911 is pivotal trigger vs a straight back pull trigger.
As mentioned in the other thread linked, Vanek does this kind of work where virtually all pre-travel is eliminated. I also do this type of work, but I will not show how it is done on video. Just like I will not show custom work on a stock USGI type trigger. Some things are just best left up to those who do it professionally. And yes, I can greatly reduce pre-travel and get the trigger down to as low as about 1# with an extremely slick feel. Personally with a hinged type trigger with a very low pull weight, I like a little bit of pre-travel. And yes, this will leave all 3 safeties in tact with proper work and fitment. As I said in the other thread, just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done to that extreme. I really would be hesitant to sell a "drop in" kit that was done to certain extreme's.
I am sure in this day in age of the www, the "how to" information is floating around somewhere out there.
Edit, fwiw you are paying for the not just the parts but the expertise and knowledge on how to do it plus the labor. Hard to put a price on knowledge and ensuring things are done correct. I get enough grief from those who might suggest I give away too much information for free as it is.
I'll be the guinea pig. I just ordered one to give it a try.
Wish me luck...
Edit: Holy shit they shipped it out literally 10 mins after I ordered it
Ok, if you can post results in this thread since I'm subscribed to it...Or, if it would benefit more people seeing it as it's own thread, shoot me a PM to let me know where to find what you get in.
With the exception of Vicker's frame products and various replacement sights I'm pretty much a lifetime factory OEM Glock kind of guy so I can't help but be curious to see if there's any benefit to any of this.
Surf, do you require the entire gun be sent in or in the case of something like a Glock do you just need the internals to modify and hone? Then allowing the parts to be reinstalled by the end user?
No interest. Dot connector and call it done for me. I have no need for a slicker trigger on a Glock. If I want perfect triggers I'll shoot 1911's.
Surf, do you require the entire gun be sent in or in the case of something like a Glock do you just need the internals to modify and hone? Then allowing the parts to be reinstalled by the end user?Sorry, I should have been more clear, I do not provide professional services as in a business type of thing. I just don't have the time. However I will say that when doing an "extreme" type of trigger job, I would definitely want the entire and exact weapon, to ensure fitment and proper function. You might be able to get away with using a standard frame and slide from any similar gen Glock with certain levels of trigger jobs, but when going to extreme levels, I would personally require the complete weapon that is getting the actual trigger for fitment and reliability testing. Not sure if I would want any possible variables that might happen from individual weapon to weapon when going with an extreme trigger job. Which is probably why Vanek requires that he does the personal fitment in the actual weapon when he does this with his ultimate trigger jobs.
Again, I am only guessing, but I am pretty sure that the Haley trigger is a not to the extreme that I discuss or what Vanek does in his ultimate trigger job. I guess this because of what others have said about the pull weight and feel of the trigger. I don't care who you are or how familiar you are with a Glock pistol, if you have never fired one that has had this similar type of "extreme trigger job, your jaw will hit the floor when you do shoot one. Which leads me to believe that the Haley trigger is not to those extremes. Even the Vanek "drop ins" are not that wholly impressive.
Also I cannot see selling a "drop in" kit if you are going to an extreme level of trigger job on factory parts. Extreme jobs can work well but there is definitely a lot of craft involved for performing the work and proper fitment. Lesser degrees of trigger jobs can be very successful "drop ins" but the results might not be as impressive. I will say that I have taken them so far that they are almost scary when your trigger finger first makes contact with the trigger safety. Virtually no pre-travel and a 1-1.5# pull on a Glock can be a shocker to say the least. :)
ETA - I should also be clear that the pre-travel is the biggest thing that can cause issues. Depending on method, this part of an extreme type of trigger job is what really requires the proper "hands on" work to ensure functioning safeties. This is not part of a "drop in" set up. Even so, these type of trigger jobs should be range / competition only.
No interest. Dot connector and call it done for me. I have no need for a slicker trigger on a Glock. If I want perfect triggers I'll shoot 1911's.I will say that people either have a love it or leave it attitude when it comes to Glock trigger jobs. I pretty much like a minus or 3.5 with a polish job and standard spring. However an out of the box 5.5 / standard spring is no issue either. Heck it is just a Glock after all. ;)
Travis himself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWEnIJ3VUOQ&feature=g-u&context=G241f892FUAAAAAAAAAA
Travis himself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWEnIJ3VUOQ&feature=g-u&context=G241f892FUAAAAAAAAAA
Interesting. wonder how they accomplished this with OEM parts?
Bowie Tactical
12-22-11, 10:31
This is nothing new. I have done this trigger for over 10 years. It is easily done with modified factory parts. It still has just a little more travel than 1911 but is still very reduced and safe if done right. The thing a lot of people don't like is that a glock is designed to rest at about 1/3 cocked and with this mod. it is more cocked on the striker. Some see this as a litigation attourney's wet dream. I think that is over stated but does need to be considered on a defensive pistol. I Guess I need to start getting on you tube. It seems if is not announced there it never existed before.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts
zombie killer
12-22-11, 10:44
I think you guys should watch the video and let Travis explain before jumping to conclusions about what is meant by the term 1911-like. The trigger was built by glocktriggers.com, Travis put his name on it , I'm assuming because he believes it and shockingly wants to makes some money. He has a name in the industry, because he earned it. I and most likely many of you will never come out with a trigger because no one knows nor gives a crap who I am.
This is nothing new. I have done this trigger for over 10 years. It is easily done with modified factory parts. It still has just a little more travel than 1911 but is still very reduced and safe if done right. The thing a lot of people don't like is that a glock is designed to rest at about 1/3 cocked and with this mod. it is more cocked on the striker. Some see this as a litigation attourney's wet dream. I think that is over stated but does need to be considered on a defensive pistol. I Guess I need to start getting on you tube. It seems if is not announced there it never existed before.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical Concepts
I actually like the pre-travel from a safety perspective. It really only effects your time to break the first shot, and arguably not that much as you can take up that pretravel while the gun is coming up onto target. subsequent shots can be fired with the very short glock reset.
He has a reputation in the industry, because he earned it.
Fixed it for you.
I don't care if he wants to put his name on something and make some money off it it... good for him.
Aftermarket and modified Glock triggers have been around for years. Most people who weren't using them before this came out, won't use them now.
The fan club that wants to know what pants he wears will buy them, and who can blame anyone for cashing in on the fan-boy money?
I've shot my share of tweaked Glock triggers before... never felt compelled to buy one, though. The dot connector is all the trigger modification I care to use.
I actually like the pre-travel from a safety perspective. It really only effects your time to break the first shot, and arguably not that much as you can take up that pretravel while the gun is coming up onto target. subsequent shots can be fired with the very short glock reset.
This. I like the stock, out of the box Glock trigger. I don't see any reason to mess with it.
The nicest Glock trigger I ever pressed was on a G22 used in the armorers course. One of my student guns, and a pebble grip G17, are pretty near thereto. There's a lot to be said for polishing by repetitive operation.
Many years ago, a senior guy in the Glock back-shop opined that the best way to get a great Glock trigger is to swap OEM components until you find a good combo, then shoot the heck out of it. If you must, only a light polish job taking care to preserve edge geometry.
If the "Skimmer" is safe, in-spec, and reliable, knock yourself out. Folks will buy it, the sellers will make money, and it will have served its purpose.
Doesn't seem M4Guru likes it very much...
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/96920244863
Doesn't seem M4Guru likes it very much...
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/96920244863
You can't see Lightfighter links unless you're a member.
There is extreme simplicity behind the engineering of the Glock pistol. There is more than one way to accomplish similar results with a Glock trigger job (some better than others of course) but Glock trigger jobs are nothing new and unless if something earth shattering has hit the scene using stock parts recently then no one is doing anything new. If there is something new than I am all ears.
Every single person that has ever shot my Gen4 G17 shown in many of my video's are usually impressed by the performance of the trigger job, which I would consider pretty average. Give them another one of my highly modified triggers and jaws start dropping and yes this is with stock parts. Guess what? This isn't something new either and if you have the know how and are willing to do the work, it can be done very inexpensive. Again I don't always advocate this work being done by your average DIYer and another thing to consider is that your not paying strictly for the parts either. But by no means am I against offering a quality product for profit. By all means have at it. I am not passing any judgments here either.
I will also like to add, that if any agency etc, has some type of clause about alteration of stock parts, you are screwed if your armorer or smiths have a clue about what they are looking at. Most agencies have a clause about alteration of stock components and it is usually forbidden. These stock components WILL BE MODIFIED, again unless if something earth shattering has hit the market, then I could be wrong. Now I am not giving a opinion on the right or wrong on the topic of having an altered or better triggers, just stating truths about agencies and lawyers.
SpeedRacer
12-23-11, 09:34
I actually like the pre-travel from a safety perspective. It really only effects your time to break the first shot, and arguably not that much as you can take up that pretravel while the gun is coming up onto target. subsequent shots can be fired with the very short glock reset.
Exactly. While watching the video, Travis lost me when he was demonstrating how the stock trigger works by bringing the trigger all the way back out to the point of taking his finger off of it. Really, 1" of trigger travel for each shot? I guess he forgot the most basic fundamentals of working the trigger while filming. :rolleyes:
I know it's salesmanship and all, but considering his skill level and intended audience I found that beyond ridiculous.
Exactly. While watching the video, Travis lost me when he was demonstrating how the stock trigger works by bringing the trigger all the way back out to the point of taking his finger off of it. Really, 1" of trigger travel for each shot? I guess he forgot the most basic fundamentals of working the trigger while filming. :rolleyes:
I know it's salesmanship and all, but considering his skill level and intended audience I found that beyond ridiculous.
.5" from wall to stop
.5" from stop to reset
1" is correct.
Taking your finger off of the trigger is a technique that some people use rather than relaxing only to the point of reset, so that full range of travel could be a consideration to people that subscribe to that.
Taking your finger off of the trigger is a technique that some people use rather than relaxing only to the point of reset, so that full range of travel could be a consideration to people that subscribe to that.
Rob Leatham is one of those people.
I can't imagine a Glock trigger, no matter how tuned, to ever come close to one of my custom tuned 1911 triggers, even when the 1911 triggers are set up for 4.0 - 4.5lbs.
Not a slam on this trigger, just talking about the pure mechanical difference in feel of the Glock and 1911 setups.
Feel is open to interpretation.
I thought his presentation of the IDEA behind why he regards this trigger as 1911 like was decent enough.
Unfortunately, the term Feel encompasses a lot of criteria and he only touched on one, ie the total travel distance of the trigger.
I dont know if his claims are true and i doubt it not because i question him but because of the different mechanics at work between platforms. I FEEL like a well tuned 1911 has an 1/8th of an inch of TOTAL travel. To me, a nicely tuned 1911 feels like it has 1/16th an inch of pre travel, certainly not an 1/8th.
Someone with better mechanical knowledge of the system can probably tell us EXACTLY how much a well tuned 1911's trigger travels.
A short throw trigger in a striker fired system is something i have been chasing for a long time mostly because i am a "flip and press" or "prep and press" kind of guy. I do not shoot to reset, ever. I know where my reset points are but after changing techniques i noticed A LOT less lateral deviation in my shots as i wasnt pushing the gun, i was pressing the trigger with the new technique. After changing technique i stopped worrying so much about pre travel and simply started doing one fingered push ups to build index finger strength...HAR, i wish.
Now, having said that, without getting too far off topic, should one want to exercise proper follow through, hold through the shot and release to reset, this trigger does not change that fundamental one bit.
Im sure its a nice trigger, im sure its reliable having seen GlockTriggers work in person. Should we all run out and spend 160 bones on this thing? Shrug, i know i wont but that doesnt stop me from wanting to try one to see what is is all about. For ME, i know what works and there is no reason to deviate or lighten my wallet.
For someone that is still trying to find what works for them, provided the funds are present and they are not eating into the ammo budget, why the hell not?
Also, for the love of god guys, saddle some of the ire here...Travis never said he created the product, he merely said he created THIS iteration which he most certainly did since it bears his name.
Mr Vickers created the DD signature carbine, same principle.
As I understand the Haley trigger, it eliminates the pre-travel, so you get to trigger break immediately. How is this different from the Apex FSS for the M&P? The FSS gets announced and it's fifteen pages of the next coming for triggers. This gets announced and gets dismissed by some almost immediately. It strikes me as odd as the products, as I understand them, do virtually the same thing. And when others compare the FSS to the 1911 trigger, most seem fine with that, but not this trigger. Perhaps I'm missing something....
As I understand the Haley trigger, it eliminates the pre-travel, so you get to trigger break immediately. How is this different from the Apex FSS for the M&P? The FSS gets announced and it's fifteen pages of the next coming for triggers. This gets announced and gets dismissed by some almost immediately. It strikes me as odd as the products, as I understand them, do virtually the same thing. And when others compare the FSS to the 1911 trigger, most seem fine with that, but not this trigger. Perhaps I'm missing something....
The FSS is its own stand alone product. The first of its kind for the M&P platform, period.
The GlockTriggers Skimmer is repackaged, modified Glock parts. There is nothing wrong with that but its not quite "new".
When you take existing parts and you modify them beyond their design parameters this tends to raise eyebrows in circles where reliability AND performance is paramount.
I have NO doubt in my mind that GlockTriggers makes a good product but as with anything worthy of consideration, the product must prove itself through use.
militarymoron
12-23-11, 14:57
I FEEL like a well tuned 1911 has an 1/8th of an inch of TOTAL travel. To me, a nicely tuned 1911 feels like it has 1/16th an inch of pre travel, certainly not an 1/8th.
just for the sake of information, i measured the trigger travel on my MARS 1911.
pre travel is .04", overtravel is .01"
total travel is .05" (fully forward to fully rear)
1/16" is .0625"
I finally received my package today from Jeff Wilson over at Glocktriggers.com.
Original Discussion: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95151
Rather than reviewing the product, I think it will be better to have a Q&A session as this thread grows.
My initial impression is that this is a very high quality piece of kit and although it's an "aftermarket" kit, it still uses factory parts to keep it consistent with factory reliability.
It does everything Travis had described in his Youtube video so take his word for it guys, this is solid upgrade to those that want to clean up their trigger pull.
Pictures:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6561245063_cf9eb7a565_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6561246397_011a3a5ee2_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/6561248637_8572ba3de4_b.jpg
Old vs. New
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7016/6561249839_53fe4ea0c6_b.jpg
New vs Old
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7012/6561251527_d3d60fc5aa_b.jpg
Old vs New (longer):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7018/6561252991_8f055ec59a_b.jpg
Initial Impressions:
-Absolutely NO pre-travel. Once you depress the trigger safety, the gun is ready to go.
-VERY little creep
-Extremely smooth pull with little or no friction
-Crisp break
-Same reset point
Video Comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0mHmU1DkY&feature=youtu.be
Lets open this up for discussion :)
Pics and discussion is up: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1177382#post1177382
.5" from wall to stop
.5" from stop to reset
1" is correct.
I measure about .100. it's not an easy thing to measure with calipers, but it is nowhere near a half inch.
Just thought I would add a bit of clarification. By no means am I against Haley Strategic and GlockTriggers in coming out with this product. More power to them. Like others here, I know Travis and have nothing but good experiences with him so not hatin here. :)
Again you are paying for the labor and the know how, because if you were to use your own existing parts, you would simply be paying mostly for a minus connector, provided you had some basic tools and the knowledge which isn't rocket science, but many people ruin some parts learning the process, so it might be worth it for many people just to purchase. So I have no problems with what is offered in this package, purely from a functional standpoint and I am not getting into pricing. If it is worth the price, it is up to the individual. In reality, I don't prefer too extreme of a trigger job on the Glock even though I can do these mods and take them even further. I do like a slightly reduced pre-travel but more so I like a slightly lighter pull and the creep (gritty feel) removed which is easily done in a combination of ways.
I have seen some photo's of the kit that show enough for me to say that I am 90% confident of what has been done, which again is nothing new and Travis isn't claiming this either. I cannot view a couple certain angles to confirm a couple other possibilities but the main modifications are obvious if you slightly understand what your looking at and I am not talking about the polish job. There are a lot of people out there, myself included who do these mods, or even go more extreme. I have no doubt GlockTriggers can easily go more extreme also, but then you are finding a balance for a "drop in" trigger, that you won't proclaim to be "range or competition only".
Again if you work for an agency that has policy against weapons modifications and most agencies will not allow ANY modification to trigger components, this trigger will more than likely not fall into a "stock components" category. They are stock components that are modified and re-engineered. This is verboten in most agencies.
I measure about .100. it's not an easy thing to measure with calipers, but it is nowhere near a half inch.
I was more just explaining how they were measuring and much less about the actual amounts...
Now that I'm here at work with a Glock 22gen4 please allow me to be more precise.
From trigger at rest(full forward position) to the stop is darn near .5"
Then from stop to to the full forward position is another .5"
This is where they got the whole 1.0" of movement from.
I neither agree nor disagree that this is the end all be all of Glock triggers. I don't have a dog in this fight.
I was just trying to help, some not all, people here understand what they were talking about.
Thanks for not understanding that and calling me to the floor though. :D
P.S. Buy you stating yours is a total of .1" you just prove that you misunderstood not only what they were talking about but also my feeble attempt at educating those that didn't, don't and probably never will understand.
Shut up Doug and get my guns finished,:shout:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWEnIJ3VUOQ
Sold em, bought beer and whiskey...:dance3:
Do want. Thanks for posting.
So after watching the videos its essentially a trigger where you are shooting from reset all the time?
I know Raven Concealment posted this link on their facebook tonight from the Grey Group on what parts effect the trigger pull. Sounds like it would not be hard to replicate this type of trigger with you standard parts.
http://community.greygrouptraining.com/2011/12/24/the-danger-close-glock-school.aspx
Larry Vickers
12-24-11, 06:48
My advice to all of you would be to simply quote the Simon Golob rule ( a classic line stated by him at an AK class)
'If you try and turn AK into an M4 you bring the M4 problems along with it'
In this case ' if you try and turn a Glock into a 1911 you bring the 1911 problems along with it'
My advice for everyone is get to a place skill wise where you can be effective with stock triggers in any serviceable firearm - this was a moment of clarity I had quite a while back and have lived by it ever since - hence why the vast majority of my weapons have stock trigger setups
Constantly looking for the magic trigger can be a curse with unintended consequences
Be safe
LAV
mike boufford
12-24-11, 09:22
So they just polish Glock factory parts? I'd like to try one before I make any judgement but if that's the case then they might be asking a little much. The term "polished to a chrome finish" sounds technically inaccurate.
I read the same thing. I've been in the tool industry for a long time. Polish levels stop for most non-NASA applications at mirror finish. Most auto headlamp lenses require a polish level of 2 micron diamond paste to get the mirror finish. Chrome is an application, not a polish finish. If you are polishing, you have to polish to a level in which the chrome application will not show blemishes in the polish. Chrome deposit magnifies imperfections in the underlying polish work.
My advice to all of you would be to simply quote the Simon Golob rule ( a classic line stated by him at an AK class)
'If you try and turn AK into an M4 you bring the M4 problems along with it'
In this case ' if you try and turn a Glock into a 1911 you bring the 1911 problems along with it'
My advice for everyone is get to a place skill wise where you can be effective with stock triggers in any serviceable firearm - this was a moment of clarity I had quite a while back and have lived by it ever since - hence why the vast majority of my weapons have stock trigger setups
Constantly looking for the magic trigger can be a curse with unintended consequences
Be safe
LAV THANK YOU Mr. Vickers for that insightful post gleaned from experience.Totally agree.Modify the shooter,not the gun.
Old fashioned skill is where it's at.;)
THANK YOU Mr. Vickers for that insightful post gleaned from experience.Totally agree.Modify the shooter,not the gun.
Old fashioned skill is where it's at.;)
It's so much easier to try and buy skill.
Putting in the work to actually develop it, is well, work. ;)
Guilty = charged :ph34r:
I was more just explaining how they were measuring and much less about the actual amounts...
Now that I'm here at work with a Glock 22gen4 please allow me to be more precise.
From trigger at rest(full forward position) to the stop is darn near .5"
Then from stop to to the full forward position is another .5"
This is where they got the whole 1.0" of movement from.
I neither agree nor disagree that this is the end all be all of Glock triggers. I don't have a dog in this fight.
I was just trying to help, some not all, people here understand what they were talking about.
Thanks for not understanding that and calling me to the floor though. :D
P.S. Buy you stating yours is a total of .1" you just prove that you misunderstood not only what they were talking about but also my feeble attempt at educating those that didn't, don't and probably never will understand.
oh ok. you meant the full travel from slack to fully pulled, yeah that's around a half inch. there's no reason to pull it this far every time (after the first shot), but i gather that you know that already.
This haley trigger could be a benefit to some people no doubt. I'd like to try one out. I don't see myself switching to one though.
Goodness, there would be a lot of hurt individuals in the black rifle world, even on this forum if you try to tell them to learn how to use a stock trigger and that perhaps they might become a better shooter for it.
My advice for everyone is get to a place skill wise where you can be effective with stock triggers in any serviceable firearm - this was a moment of clarity I had quite a while back and have lived by it ever since - hence why the vast majority of my weapons have stock trigger setups
.... except for the HK triggers? I seem to recall you stating in class the HK stock triggers on the P30 and HK45 needed immediate help.
.... except for the HK triggers? I seem to recall you stating in class the HK stock triggers on the P30 and HK45 needed immediate help.
It was my understanding that he (LAV) was talking about modifying the trigger guard so that it did not pinch your finger.
C4
It was my understanding that he (LAV) was talking about modifying the trigger guard so that it did not pinch your finger.
C4
As I recall the discussion was specifically about the trigger action, not the guard. We discussed springs, sending guns off to a 'Smith, etc.
This was in a 1911 class I took with him last year (not through GG).
FTR I'm not trying to start anything by my comment. I was just pointing out what seemed to be an exception to the statement that was made. agree we should all have a high level of competency with the stock trigger on any weapon we carry or use for defensive purposes. That being said, not all modifications are what I would consider chasing unicorns. Besides, EVERYONE seems to mod their 1911s and has since the beginning of time. That is generally regarded as acceptable, right?
As I recall the discussion was specifically about the trigger action, not the guard. We discussed springs, sending guns off to a 'Smith, etc.
This was in a 1911 class I took with him last year (not through GG).
Hmm, can't say that I have heard that discussion before.
Some guns have poor triggers in them and do need a little trigger work done to them IMHO. The Glock isn't one of them. Bone stock, it is very good.
I think there is a HUGE difference between doing some polish work and installing what I would call "Race Gun" components.
C4
Video Comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0mHmU1DkY&feature=youtu.be
Lets open this up for discussion :)
Cosmo,
There's no vid in the link. Anyway you could get that back up? Thanks.
For curiosity's sake, I'm interested how this differs from the the Glockworx Drop-In trigger bar (http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/7_Custom+Parts+%26amp%3B+Accessories/7518_Custom+Trigger+and+Trigger+Bar/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D7%26%26%26page%3D3%26nothumbs%3D%26filter_1%3D%26filter_2%3D%26filter_3%3D%26filter_4%3D) (polished with pretravel reduction mod) which sells for $80?. Or even the complete kit (http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/7_Custom+Parts+%26amp%3B+Accessories/7512_Complete+Drop-In+Trigger+Kit/?return=%3ftpl%3Dindex%26category_id%3D7%26%26%26page%3D2%26nothumbs%3D%26filter_1%3D%26filter_2%3D%26filter_3%3D%26filter_4%3D) for $130?
I think there is a HUGE difference between doing some polish work and putting in what I would call "Race Gun" components.Agreed 100%.
I personally think the kit www.GlockTriggers.com has put together here qualifies more as "polish work" rather than "race gun".
I have discussed the intended use for some of the different kits they produce with the owner as it relates to safety. He will be the first to tell you not to put one of his competition kits in a carry gun. I point blank asked him if he was saying that from a liability standpoint or if he really believed it. He said he really believed it and he would NOT suggest putting the competition kits in a carry gun. He now has a kit he does sell that he considers safe for duty/carry use .... well, not I guess he has two.
Agreed 100%.
I personally think the kit www.GlockTriggers.com has put together here qualifies more as "polish work" rather than "race gun".
I have discussed the intended use for some of the different kits they produce with the owner as it relates to safety. He will be the first to tell you not to put one of his competition kits in a carry gun. I point blank asked him if he was saying that from a liability standpoint or if he really believed it. He said he really believed it and he would NOT suggest putting the competition kits in a carry gun. He now has a kit he does sell that he considers safe for duty/carry use .... well, not I guess he has two.
It could be. Where it becomes questionable is when you start messing with pre-travel on a gun with no safety.
YMMV.
C4
Make no mistake, the skimmer is more than just a polish job. At the minimum from what I can see from the pics that have been posted, the trigger bars are shortened and the trigger pin placement has been moved. Again this is not uncommon or fairly typical when heading down the path of what I would consider a race or range only trigger using factory type components. Just depends on how far you want to go with it. The skimmer from what I can tell and from video is still fairly tame when talking race triggers. The full polish of all surfaces is mostly for looks. Sure is pretty though and I am sure the visual appeal can't hurt sales either. :)
Surf,
Off topic. I saw your video on trigger skills and sadly if you said that to me in person I would pay you $160 vs. getting the Skimmer. :happy:
I just installed this trigger on a customer's gun. Feels the same to me but with less pre-travel. I don't know if that's worth the $150+ in itself. I'm a stock trigger guy when it comes to my glocks and tier 1 AR15s. I guess I just saved me a bunch of money.
Surf,
Off topic. I saw your video on trigger skills and sadly if you said that to me in person I would pay you $160 vs. getting the Skimmer. :happy:Thanks I appreciate the nice comment. Nothing replaces quality instruction in regards to base fundamentals such as trigger control. Unfortunately there are many who would like to believe that a fancy trigger on any weapon, including the AR/M4 is the holy grail to fixing a problem. Instead we should perhaps fix the shooter and not the trigger, which Mr Vickers eludes to above. Instead people throw money at things that will mask their own deficiencies and not really address the base issues of a shooters own skill levels and their knowledge of basic fundamentals and the correct application those fundamentals. Travis H. I am sure would agree on this idea and I am fairly certain that he does not intend this product to be considered a band aid fix to a shooters own fundamental issues, but to enhance a skilled shooter. Unfortunately many go the band aid route, which I blame on our push button, I want it now society. :)
Again thanks for the nice comments and thanks for watching the video's!
My advice to all of you would be to simply quote the Simon Golob rule ( a classic line stated by him at an AK class)
'If you try and turn AK into an M4 you bring the M4 problems along with it'
In this case ' if you try and turn a Glock into a 1911 you bring the 1911 problems along with it'
My advice for everyone is get to a place skill wise where you can be effective with stock triggers in any serviceable firearm - this was a moment of clarity I had quite a while back and have lived by it ever since - hence why the vast majority of my weapons have stock trigger setups
Constantly looking for the magic trigger can be a curse with unintended consequences
Be safe
LAV
Lots of truth here, and almost anyone in LE can can tell you that's how it goes. I'm grateful my issued pistol has a fantastic trigger (to me anyway, a lot of people bitch about it but I love it).
I am new to the sport, but enjoyed the commentary on this and wanted to add to the discussion.
It would seem that this industry is on built upon making things better to a point where it doesn't become worse. In plate carriers, medical kits and several other items improvements to our ability to bring them into play faster and more efficiently with comfort and a lack of inefficiency is seen as a good thing. Yet with this invention it seems that law suits and the need to use a stock trigger well, override the advancements that this trigger is looking to bring about.
On the point of bringing problems with the 1911 trigger with it, valid point. However this seems to more a matter of bringing the efficiencies of the 1911 trigger forward and not the actual trigger. He states that it is not a 1911 trigger in a glock. He expresses the idea that it is an efficient design and for that reason it is being brought forward into the Glock. It appears based on the video that it accomplishes this task. As a learning point for me, what are the problems that are coming with it?
One of the major reasons that the trigger was designed was to increase speed. Physics tells us that an object moving the same speed over a longer distance will take longer than over a shorter distance. This new trigger was designed to eliminate inefficiency and allow a shooter to reset and fire more quickly with a predictable wall and reset. I am interested in why this is seen as a bad thing and would like to hear some of your opinions in order to learn.
On the topic of lawsuits I don't think that the lack of pre-travel is a problem if you know your trigger. The trigger safety is still there and cannot be fired without your finger depressing it. In fact the trigger is more predictable and there is no slop and unknown break point. If your finger has gone to the trigger and you are on target then you have already made some decisions that will be admissible in court. Some suggested simply making the improvements yourself and it would seem that this would introduce even more liability if you are worried about this. It seems that if you ever have to use it you want to be consistent and efficient with a good probability of hitting what you are aiming at. For the same learning point above why is there such resistance to this idea? It seems that the shooting community mirrors the public Screwels system in that it caters to the lowest common denominator.
In the videos that Travis is part of I have never seen him state that you should not be able to operate different weapons with stock triggers. In his classes he advocates for adaptability and consistency across platforms with a focus on fundamentals. Love to hear your comments and thank you for the great discussion on this product it is helping me to make a buy or not decision.
Robb Jensen
01-01-12, 11:18
I've installed a few of these for customers who brought them to me for installation. The kit has a high polish job, the vertical extension of the trigger bar has been reprofiled for smoothness. The way they take out most of the pre-travel is that there's a non adjustable screw installed in the plastic trigger which limits how far the trigger bar can move forward when it's assembled in the pistol. The trigger safety and firing pin safety are still 100% functional. When a round is chambered the striker is "cocked" more. This percentage of "cockedness" is actually less than it is on an M&P, XD and some P99s but no one is worried about those triggers. The M&P has a sear spring which makes it control when the striker is released, the XD has a sear spring and grip safety which control rearward movement of the trigger bar. The only passive safety which is defeated using a Skimmer is what Glock calls their "drop safety". This is a shelf inside the connector/trigger housing which keeps the trigger bar from dropping and releasing the striker until the slack is pulled out of trigger. It's a redundant safety since the pistol has a firing pin safety. On a Skimmer equipped Glock with the upper off of the frame and the trigger cocked you can press down on the trigger bar and it'll drop which means it would release the cocked striker and if the firing pin safety didn't hold the pistol could/would fire, in other words it could fire if dropped. To me on a match pistol this is of no consequence. With "gamer" match only pistols we do all kinds of HSLD-ninja-race-go fast stuff like pinning grip safeties, have 1-1.5lb triggers and fiber optic sights and such. On a carry gun I would want the drop safety shelf to work. One way to make Skimmer equipped gun safer and less likely to drop the trigger bar would be to use a NY1 trigger spring which exerts upward pressure on the tail end of the trigger bar and why it increases the trigger pull weight.
Drop safety in up cocked position (up)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/5d0536bd.jpg
Drop safety shelf in fired position (aka down)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/5ca0f2d4.jpg
Robb, maybe it is an optical illusion of the pictures in this thread as I cannot see the opposite side of the trigger bar / trigger to see if the pin in the trigger was relocated, but because of the way the pics look like the trigger bar looks like it was shortened on the trigger end which would normally lead to repositioning the pin in the trigger itself, which is a more involved technique. So with the skimmer they are only doing a connector, high polish, springs and a set screw method?
Robb Jensen
01-01-12, 15:17
Robb, maybe it is an optical illusion of the pictures in this thread as I cannot see the opposite side of the trigger bar / trigger to see if the pin in the trigger was relocated, but because of the way the pics look like the trigger bar looks like it was shortened on the trigger end which would normally lead to repositioning the pin in the trigger itself, which is a more involved technique. So with the skimmer they are only doing a connector, high polish, springs and a set screw method?
Those pics are of my stock G22Gen4 to show how the drop safety shelf works on an unmodified Glock. With the Skimmer this passive safety isn't functional anymore. Everything else on the trigger bar is stock as far as i can tell. It isnt like Charlie Vaneks work
. As far as I can tell (as a certified Glock Inc Advanced Glock Armorer) with the Skimmer it has the features all you said plus the vertical extension has been reshaped for a smoother function. It's the cam which unlocks the firing pin.
I shot this set up the other day. It does shoot very well.
I'm used to the pretravel and reset of the glock trigger so I probably would not go for it.
Still - for some it will be a very nice trigger kit.
Singlestack Wonder
01-08-12, 19:28
Those pics are of my stock G22Gen4 to show how the drop safety shelf works on an unmodified Glock. With the Skimmer this passive safety isn't functional anymore. Everything else on the trigger bar is stock as far as i can tell. It isnt like Charlie Vaneks work
. As far as I can tell (as a certified Glock Inc Advanced Glock Armorer) with the Skimmer it has the features all you said plus the vertical extension has been reshaped for a smoother function. It's the cam which unlocks the firing pin.
Robb:
If the Skimmer trigger is using an unmodified trigger bar, with the pre-travel removed, the firing pin safety plunger is also pushed up and deactivated. If the loaded pistol was slammed on the grip bottom, without the drop safety or firing pin safety engaged, there is a high probability of a discharge. Even for competiton, this is risky in the case of a competitor falling on the ground or banging the pistol on a prop.
As a Certified Glock Armorer (me), I would not install this trigger in a customer's pistol due to liability reasons.
The skimmer is using a modified trigger bar...
The skimmer is using a modified trigger bar...
It's not modified, just polished.
Um...
The leg that interacts with the firing pin block IS modified.
The trigger pin hinge point is also relocated so yes, the bar IS modified.
Singlestack Wonder
01-08-12, 21:02
Um...
The leg that interacts with the firing pin block IS modified.
The trigger pin hinge point is also relocated so yes, the bar IS modified.
Would you please post an image of the modified trigger bar showing the modified firing pin CAM so to clear up any confusion?
It's time to see some direct comparison pics. Maybe even a chart with the bars mic'ed out. Who's got one?
If the Skimmer trigger is using an unmodified trigger bar, with the pre-travel removed, the firing pin safety plunger is also pushed up and deactivated. If the loaded pistol was slammed on the grip bottom, without the drop safety or firing pin safety engaged, there is a high probability of a discharge. Even for competiton, this is risky in the case of a competitor falling on the ground or banging the pistol on a prop.
As a Certified Glock Armorer (me), I would not install this trigger in a customer's pistol due to liability reasons.
I thought this was a legit concern so I emailed Glock Triggers - He responded that no safeties are deactivated in the process.
Singlestack Wonder
01-09-12, 11:06
If the Skimmer trigger is using an unmodified trigger bar, with the pre-travel removed, the firing pin safety plunger is also pushed up and deactivated. If the loaded pistol was slammed on the grip bottom, without the drop safety or firing pin safety engaged, there is a high probability of a discharge. Even for competiton, this is risky in the case of a competitor falling on the ground or banging the pistol on a prop.
As a Certified Glock Armorer (me), I would not install this trigger in a customer's pistol due to liability reasons.
I thought this was a legit concern so I emailed Glock Triggers - He responded that no safeties are deactivated in the process.
When I e-mailed him two weeks ago asking about the Drop Safety, (I've seen this issue over the years with many aftermarket Glock competition triggers where pre-travel is removed and the drop and firing pin safeties are disabled) he stated the same thing. Not sure whether or not he truly understands the Glock Safety system, but if one looks at Robb's pics, the drop safety is clearly disabled.
Perhaps you could have Glocktriggers post here and show photo's with diagrams proving that their design does not disable any of the 3 Glock safeties just in case there is something we are missing.
"Perhaps you could have Glocktriggers post here and show photo's with diagrams proving that their design does not disable any of the 3 Glock safeties"
I'll tell him if I see him. I don't have a dog in this fight.
I do compete against Jeff in IDPA and he's a pretty straight up guy.
I just installed the skimmer trigger on my duty Glock 34. My first observations of the trigger bar are that the geometry of the trigger bar has been changed just a bit, The polish job on all the parts are very impressive. Anyone with knowledge a Dremel tool and elbow grease can do it . The trigger system its self is a nice piece of kit. The pre-travel has been reduced (but there still very little left really not noticeably). The trigger break is very clean and crisp, The weight on the trigger is 4.5 lbs as advertised by Travis. It does give you some what of a 1911 feel. But far from a 1911 trigger it self but it is close (two different types of triggers). In my opinion the skimmer is worth having. It will help a good Shooter / Operation become faster with the first shot the reset is still at factory setting . As far as accuracy goes like Travis said as long as you apply good basic fundamentals your groups will get tighter. The system itself won't correct bad fundamentals or habits that ill depend on the individual operator. All of the safety's are fully functional. I read on one of the earlier posts that the drop safety disengages I personally tried pushing it down with the slide off and the trigger bar wouldn't disengage. I went to the range (fired approx. 200 rds) today and the trigger system functioning without a signal malfunction. All in all I am very pleased with the quality and function of the the skimmer and in my personal opinion I would recommend it to anyone.
it really is a nice kit and I'm happy with it so far.
Got to page 4 and got tired of reading.
I believe they actually move the trigger back on the trigger bar. This would essentially mean the trigger bar is already partially pulled when the trigger is fully reset. I measure that you can get about 1/8" of pretravel removed before the bar hits the firing pin plunger. Attaching the trigger higher means it rotates back out and the trigger safety still works.
So my question is, does the trigger break further forward than stock? I guess this makes sense since my brother's CZ SA only trigger does this.
I modified the part of the trigger bar that depresses the firing pin safety like he does. It really smooths out the pretravel. I also have a standard Ghost 3.5 connector (not rocket). My trigger is very crisp and smooth. I sort of wish I got the Rocket to reduce overtravel, but it is what it is. My limits in accuracy are due to my eyes mostly.
ETA: The problem with removing pretravel in a defensive pistol (which this trigger is advertised for) is that most people will be super hyped up on adrenaline while they're pulling. And most people "tense up" when they're on adrenaline. I don't like the idea of having less time to realize I'm pulling the trigger. And you can say "train" all you want, but most people shoot a couple bullets before carrying. I watched a prison guard put 5 rounds down range at a very controlled rate, and didn't hit his silhouette target once. Yes, I told him to buy snap caps.
I just installed the Glock Triggers Guardian the other day. I had a home polish job and a Ghost tactical bar. I like the Guardian better. Its really crisp and excellent for carry.
I did shoot the Skimmer and it was really good too but I wanted to keep the pretravel because I'm so used to it.
I respect Jeff at Glock Triggers. Not everyone is able or wants to do the polish work and learn all the tricks that he learned over the years. He took his expertise as a shooter and armoror and turned it into a valuableable service to other shooters.
Its been exactly a week since I have installed the Skimmer and over fifty-teen hundred rounds later its still running flawless with zero malfunctions. In fact the trigger even feels a little smoother. The break is still crisp and clean. I truly believe in this trigger system and in my line of work I need equipment that wont fail me. A Glock 34 already a good weapon, add a Skimmer trigger and it takes it to the next level in performance. I recommend it to anyone from the normal citizen to a high level Tier 1 Operator. Jeff and Travis did and excellent job designing and creating this trigger system.
davidjinks
01-18-12, 11:12
Is there any definitive, hard data that states this trigger actually prevents the drop safety/firing pin safety from working?
Has anyone/company/group/creator/manufacturer done an actual drop test?
i don't understand why people think that the internal safeties stop working after installing this kit.
davidjinks
01-18-12, 12:11
i don't understand why people think that the internal safeties stop working after installing this kit.
That's why I asked the question I asked.
A couple posts stated that safeties are deactivated by using this trigger setup. Has there been any testing to prove this?
The people that posted that dont know what they're talking about or you misread it.
Generally speaking, removing pre travel in a CERTAIN method, CAN remove the drop safety in the system.
THIS particular trigger does NO SUCH THING.
Jeff would never, EVER manufacture a product designed for concealed carry or duty use which deactivated factory safeties.
davidjinks
01-18-12, 13:35
The people that posted that dont know what they're talking about or you misread it.
Generally speaking, removing pre travel in a CERTAIN method, CAN remove the drop safety in the system.
THIS particular trigger does NO SUCH THING.
Jeff would never, EVER manufacture a product designed for concealed carry or duty use which deactivated factory safeties.
Relax dude, I didn't misread anything.
Both Robb Jensen and Sigle stack wonder eluded to safeties being deactivated.
I have no dog in this fight. Just wanted to know those that are saying safeties are being deactivated if they've actually done any testing to show it.
David,
Dont misconstrue the caps for yelling. I put it in there for emphasis. :)
I own this trigger kit and to answer everybody's question:
THIS DOES NOT REMOVE THE INTERNAL SAFETIES.
Magz pretty much nailed it.
davidjinks
01-18-12, 13:56
David,
Dont misconstrue the caps for yelling. I put it in there for emphasis. :)
No worries brother.
The people that posted that dont know what they're talking about or you misread it.
Generally speaking, removing pre travel in a CERTAIN method, CAN remove the drop safety in the system.
THIS particular trigger does NO SUCH THING.
Jeff would never, EVER manufacture a product designed for concealed carry or duty use which deactivated factory safeties.
Agreed, he clearly states on some of his products NOT FOR CARRY use.... the guy has a good rep, hes not all of the sudden going to create something dangerous and slap Haleys name on it...
Alaskapopo
01-18-12, 14:47
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97111
I did a review on it in the above thread. I love it.Great trigger.
Pat
Someone drop the trigger kit in a cut-away model. That will tell all.
St.Michael
02-05-12, 09:46
Guys, this is what I don't understand. It's a simple upgrade to add a little extra to a glock pistol. Where is the problem with this? I feel like I am reading a bunch of "it's not needed and not worth it" feedback. MOST of us are here because we love this stuff and this is where we dump our "extra" money. Travis said in the magpul dvds that he loves his normal mil spec triggers right. As stated above it's a polish job. It can be looked at as a nice way to have some custom work into your glock. The glocks are great pistols so why dump on something that might make them a little tiny bit better?
More reviews from people who actually slapped this trigger in would be nice.
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 10:04
I own this trigger kit and to answer everybody's question:
THIS DOES NOT REMOVE THE INTERNAL SAFETIES.
Magz pretty much nailed it.
How did you verify this? How long have you been a Glock Armorer or Glock Advanced Armorer?
To clarify it doesn't 'remove' the safeties, they're still present just non functional. Just like USPSA shooters who 'pin' their grip safeties on 1911s, they're still there just non functional.
Every one of the dozen or so Skimmers I've installed will allow the trigger bar to be pressed down which would release the striker. We're getting a cutaway G17 or 19 soon and I'll make a video to demo it.
Use at your own risk.
St.Michael
02-05-12, 10:08
How did you verify this? How long have you been a Glock Armorer or Glock Advanced Armorer?
To clarify it doesn't 'remove' the safeties, they're still present just non functional. Just like USPSA shooters who 'pin' their grip safeties on 1911s, they're still there just non functional.
Every one of the dozen or so Skimmers I've installed will allow the trigger bar to be pressed down which would release the striker. We're getting a cutaway G17 or 19 soon and I'll make a video to demo it.
Use at your own risk.
Doesn't Travis say right on the video that it has it's safety?
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 10:40
Doesn't Travis say right on the video that it has it's safety?
If he does than he doesn't understand the 3 passive safeties that factory Glocks have. He could say that the moon is made of cheese, however that doesn't make it so.
In my opinion the drop safety is the most important safety a Glock has. Because even if the firing pin and trigger safety are non functional and the pistol is dropped it still won't allow the trigger bar to release the striker. Essentially it would function like a DA revolver, keep you booger hook off the trigger and no loud noises will occur.
FWIW I've owned and worked on Glocks since 1987. I've been a Glock certified Armorer since 2004 and Glock Advanced Armorer since 2010. I needed the certifications since getting into the gun repair business in 2004.
I repeat: Someone drop the trigger kit in a cut-away model. That will tell all.
I got to shoot a friends Glock19C with the Skimmer installed yesterday. I was very impressed with it, and will be purchasing them for my Glocks.
I got to shoot a friends Glock19C with the Skimmer installed yesterday. I was very impressed with it, and will be purchasing them for my Glocks.
IMHO, if you round and polish the striker block, polish and install a 3.5 connector (along with polishing a couple other items) you will have a similar trigger pull/feel.
C4
Littlelebowski
02-05-12, 11:39
Robb Jensen's word is more than enough for me. Pass on the Skimmer.
I have shot this trigger and it is excellent. Its not my choice but I see why a lot of people love it.
I compete in IDPA with Jeff and speak with him once and a while and he says he does not disable the safeties. He also mentioned that they are so popular that he has to expand to keep up.
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 13:35
I have shot this trigger and it is excellent. Its not my choice but I see why a lot of people love it.
I compete in IDPA with Jeff and speak with him once and a while and he says he does not disable the safeties. He also mentioned that they are so popular that he has to expand to keep up.
And Jeff apparently doesn't understand how the drop safety on a Glock works. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Here's my G23 Gen4 with a Skimmer, the striker releases with downward pressure on the trigger bar. Like I've said the drop safety is compromised using a Skimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/c0affc62.mp4
Here's my G22 Gen4 with a standard trigger bar. No amount of downward force on the trigger bar will release the striker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/07e52165.mp4
Here's my G23 Gen4 with a Skimmer, the striker releases with downward pressure on the trigger bar. Like I've said the drop safety is compromised using a Skimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/c0affc62.mp4
Here's my G22 Gen4 with a standard trigger bar. No amount of downward force on the trigger bar will release the striker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/07e52165.mp4
It's my understanding that these aren't marketed for the Gen4 guns. They haven't released them yet.
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 13:42
It's my understanding that these aren't marketed for the Gen4 guns. They haven't released them yet.
The only difference between the two are the trigger (connector) housings. Gen4s have a taper at the back end of the housing. It's the same housings as a 21/30 SF just a different ejector for the applicable caliber.
Ok, I understand then, you changed out trigger housings.
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 13:46
Ok, I understand then, you changed out trigger housings.
Yes. The only modification GlockTriggers.com does to the housing on a Skimmer is an unnecessary polishing on the ejector.
I eventually purchased one of the Skimmer's later on after starting this thread. I noticed the ejector polishing, which I agree, was somewhat confusing to me.
I will say one thing for the polishing that goes beyond necessary contact points. It does clean up easier. But considering how well the Glocks run dirty that's not much to list under benefits of extended shine.
Robb Jensen
02-05-12, 14:10
If they wanted to make this type of trigger safely one would redesign the trigger housing so that the shelf/drop safety was 1/8"-3/16" further back. That way it would still be functional. With that kind of mod you probably wouldn't need the pin/screw in the top of the trigger which is what removes the take up.
High Altitude
02-05-12, 19:33
Thanks for posting the videos. No doubt the Skimmer trigger system bypasses the drop safety in your pistol.
And Jeff apparently doesn't understand how the drop safety on a Glock works. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Here's my G23 Gen4 with a Skimmer, the striker releases with downward pressure on the trigger bar. Like I've said the drop safety is compromised using a Skimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/c0affc62.mp4
Here's my G22 Gen4 with a standard trigger bar. No amount of downward force on the trigger bar will release the striker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/07e52165.mp4
St.Michael
02-05-12, 20:08
I don't know shit about being an armor. BUT I do know I learned a shit ton from you guys on this site. So even the mention that this could mess with the safety makes it a no go on my end. Thanks for the post.
The thing about Glock triggers, is they are GTG, right out of the box, imo.
Alaskapopo
02-05-12, 20:42
The thing about Glock triggers, is they are GTG, right out of the box, imo.
They are ok but not great. A 1911 trigger is a great.
Pat
Heavy Metal
02-05-12, 20:46
I can't see removing the pre-travel unless it is to make a crutch for those who won't or can't learn where the reset point is. It makes zero sense to me.
Aren't you essentially making a two-stage trigger into a single-stage one?
They are ok but not great. A 1911 trigger is a great.
Pat
Does the Skimmer achieve a 1911 trigger pull?
I can't see removing the pre-travel unless it is to make a crutch for those who won't or can't learn where the reset point is. It makes zero sense to me.
Aren't you essentially making a two-stage trigger into a single-stage one?
I like the small amount of pre travel, thats present, with a stock Glock trigger, for the 1st pull. Just for safety's sake. After the initial pull, there is no travel at reset, and the reset is forceful. Perfect.
Heavy Metal
02-05-12, 21:00
I like the small amount of pre travel, thats present, with a stock Glock trigger, for the 1st pull. Just for safety's sake. After the initial pull, there is no travel at reset, and the reset is forceful. Perfect.
I find it a non-issue. I remove the pre-travel as I am pressing out as soon as my eyes hit the sights. By the time I am ready to break the shot, it is history.
I find it a non-issue. I remove the pre-travel as I am pressing out as soon as my eyes hit the sights. By the time I am ready to break the shot, it is history.
Agree.
St.Michael
02-05-12, 21:29
They are ok but not great. A 1911 trigger is a great.
Pat
+1. Glock triggers are easy to work with for sure. But nothing better then a 1911
Polishing the ejector is not unnecessary, at least from the marketing standpoint. Same goes for the complete polish of all the parts. For the uninitiated all of the "bling" when you take the parts out of the tube helps to justify the cost. Does everything need to be high polished? No it doesn't. Does it look cool and "special"? Yes it does and that helps the marketing price point. In reality and as has been mentioned a very simple and inexpensive "tune" of the trigger that pretty much anyone can do, will give very similar results in what the majority of shooters will actually notice.
Alaskapopo
02-05-12, 23:39
Does the Skimmer achieve a 1911 trigger pull?
No but its better than any other Glock trigger I have tried.
Pat
I wanted to post a followup to my experience with this trigger.
The kit you receive includes a new firing pin spring as well as other parts. I went ahead and installed the full kit and over several hundred rounds I made it to some Winchester white box. I realize this ammunition is considered sub par in some ways anymore but just to note I started getting a number of misfires. Basically I ran about six to seven failures to fire out of 50 and previously was getting two to three misfires out of about 50.
Since I had experienced similar problems with Glocks back in the early 90's when I installed some lower powered Wolff striker springs my mind went immediately back about 20 years.
I stripped the pistol's slide out last night and re installed the factory original striker spring and ran it today. 100% reliability resumed.
While I'm still happy overall with my purchase, I felt it might be worth posting so others could test out some various ammo and see what results they obtain.
Again, this problem didn't rear it's head until several hundred rounds through.
I have no idea what spring this is that came with the kit. If it is just a new Glock spring or if it's a variant thereof. Trigger pull didn't feel any different going between the two springs.
rockmyglock
03-13-12, 17:29
And Jeff apparently doesn't understand how the drop safety on a Glock works. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Here's my G23 Gen4 with a Skimmer, the striker releases with downward pressure on the trigger bar. Like I've said the drop safety is compromised using a Skimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/c0affc62.mp4
Here's my G22 Gen4 with a standard trigger bar. No amount of downward force on the trigger bar will release the striker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/07e52165.mp4
Robb, thanks for this info with video!
snakedoctor
04-03-12, 08:03
I drank the Kool-Aid and ordered one. I figured if I don't like it I'll just return it.
Any mention of messing or possibly messing with the safeties on a Glock has me as a no-go for this trigger. That's just scary to me.
As a few have said in here I find the take up on my 19 to be just fine the way it is.
My advice to all of you would be to simply quote the Simon Golob rule ( a classic line stated by him at an AK class)
'If you try and turn AK into an M4 you bring the M4 problems along with it'
In this case ' if you try and turn a Glock into a 1911 you bring the 1911 problems along with it'
My advice for everyone is get to a place skill wise where you can be effective with stock triggers in any serviceable firearm - this was a moment of clarity I had quite a while back and have lived by it ever since - hence why the vast majority of my weapons have stock trigger setups
Constantly looking for the magic trigger can be a curse with unintended consequences
Be safe
LAV
I'll be honest. I was going to get one of these until I read this post and a lightbulb went off for some reason. I standardized on 9mm and .223 and have just been shooting thats it.
I still am curious as to how this feels, but at this point my issue is more with the gen 4 glocks overall than anything else, the trigger doesn't even bother me anymore.
Even when I got my new rifle, fought the urge to start swapping things out...just froglubed it and shoot shoot shoot. The results have been better than any piece of "kit" I have purchased. Although it is hard, as I love new toys.
I took a hint from the design and rounded and polished the top of my trigger bar. Makes the takeup and creep a lot more smooth.
Any mention of messing or possibly messing with the safeties on a Glock has me as a no-go for this trigger. That's just scary to me.
I personally think it's irresponsible to market it as a "carry trigger", with those facts in mind.
That said, he's probably laughing all the way to the bank with the amount of people who've bought this thing because of who's name is on it.
I personally think it's irresponsible to market it as a "carry trigger", with those facts in mind.
That said, he's probably laughing all the way to the bank with the amount of people who've bought this thing because of who's name is on it.
Have not been keeping up with this thread but didn't the owner of the company making these state that no safeties are compromised?
Have not been keeping up with this thread but didn't the owner of the company making these state that no safeties are compromised?
There is video proof that contradicts the claim that it doesn't.
That's all I need to know.
Have not been keeping up with this thread but didn't the owner of the company making these state that no safeties are compromised?
Read post #109 of this thread and click on the videos.
High Altitude
04-04-12, 01:36
In reality and as has been mentioned a very simple and inexpensive "tune" of the trigger that pretty much anyone can do, will give very similar results in what the majority of shooters will actually notice.
I bought a gen4 34 to shoot in IDPA/SSP. Previously, on my other glocks, I have only done the basic polish/change connector type trigger work, and have been contemplating buying a complete trigger from glocktriggers or Vanek.
After asking around, talking to other comp shooters etc........they are telling me exactly what you are saying. Polish it up, use a connector you like, try out an overtravel stop or different springs if you want to and go shoot. Worry more about technique/skills instead of trying to find that magic trigger.
Dakota Glock Guy
11-12-12, 09:32
I pulled up a picture of the Skimmer online and saw something interesting.
If you look at this picture, you'll notice the cam surface on the top of the vertical extension of the trigger bar is rounded, but on the top and bottom. I've circled the part of it I've been asking about.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d51/bmikel4/HaleySkimmerTrigger-1.jpg
Note: I am NOT talking about the "dimple" on the side, which is a gen 4 (and some gen 3's, like my G30SF) addition. I am ONLY talking about the rounded top and bottom of the vertical extension.
Since I've never seen this part rounded off before, I was wondering:
1. What does this accomplish, and
2. Will the safety be compromised in any way/shape/form because of this modification??
***NOTE: I missed this post earlier, but I think JonnyVain just gave me the first part of the answer!!! ***
I took a hint from the design and rounded and polished the top of my trigger bar. Makes the takeup and creep a lot more smooth.
I have looked around and can not find a skimmer trigger for a 45 cal glock. Was wondering if anybody had heard if they were going to release one?
I have it into carry 19. I've tried a few different triggers in Glock's over the years and like this one the best. There's still a about 1/4-1/3 the take up the stock trigger has and I like that. I've done avert thing I can to get the the striker to slip from dropping the gun(the Internet acts like this is a serious issue), banging the gun on my work bench in all sorts of different manners and angles. So hard the stock rear sight broke off (was about to install new ones anyway)... So say what you will about this trigger but everyone that has shot this gun, now wants this trigger
Robb Jensen
09-01-13, 06:35
I have it into carry 19. I've tried a few different triggers in Glock's over the years and like this one the best. There's still a about 1/4-1/3 the take up the stock trigger has and I like that. I've done avert thing I can to get the the striker to slip from dropping the gun(the Internet acts like this is a serious issue), banging the gun on my work bench in all sorts of different manners and angles. So hard the stock rear sight broke off (was about to install new ones anyway)... So say what you will about this trigger but everyone that has shot this gun, now wants this trigger
It's not a big deal, it's the equivalent the removing the seat belts or airbags from your vehicle.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-01-13, 10:04
I think a person would be better off taking that $159 and buying some ammo, hitting the range, and learn to shoot the pistol with all the safeties still properly functioning.
It's not a big deal, it's the equivalent the removing the seat belts or airbags from your vehicle.
What I meant was that I don't feel, that it harmed or stopped any of the safeties from functioning properly... This was a big concern of mine and I even called GT to discuss the "hearsay" issue of this trigger group causing failure to any of the safety features.
So after 500rds through my tried and true Gen 3 Glock 17 with the new trigger I wanted to share my experiences with the forum. First a little admin background, to this point I have never messed with a stock trigger on any of my handguns. After attending an Adaptive handgun course I was intrigued by the potential of the Haley Skimmer trigger and after watching and reading many reviews decided that I would give it a shot. The amount of controversy surrounding an item usually only heightens my interest in it and this was no different. Reviews ranged across the board from love to hate and the controversy drew me into the ring.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=697&pictureid=3385
Before purchasing the trigger I did spend a significant amount of time not only researching this trigger, but also a wide array of other triggers that had similar attributes. This trigger got my money due to Travis' design input and backing. That said Jeff Wilson at Glocktriggers.com was also tremendously helpful and the trigger from the time of purchase to doorstep was three days. This was my first experience with glocktriggers.com, but it will not be my last. They are a quality operation and answered my emailed questions immediately. Customer service is hard to find these days in the industry.
The kit come with the following:
Smooth Trigger w/ Trigger Bar / OEM / Modified to Reduce Pre-Travel & polished
Trigger Housing w/ Ejector / OEM polished
Minus Connector / Optional 5.5 lb. standard connector / OEM polished
Trigger Spring / OEM polished
Firing Pin spring / OEM polished
Firing pin safety spring / OEM polished
Firing Pin Safety / OEM polished
Spring cups / OEM
(I went with the standard 5.5 connector)
Trigger feel:
The primary difference in this trigger vice the stock trigger is the predictable take up from the initial press to the wall. The trigger gives you a predictable and repeatable take up every time and delivers a consistent wall. From the wall to break is not like an icicle, but more like a carrot. What is not there is the mushy feel of the take up on the stock trigger with an inconsistent arrival at the wall. My experience with the stock trigger has been one of love and hate. I love the break and reset and hate the take up to break. The trigger does not necessarily feel lighter than the stock trigger. Rather it is smoother and more predictable. The safeties inherent in the stock trigger are still present and to this point I have experienced no failures with the safeties. Many people have cited that messing with the inherent safety of the Glock is a bad thing and I agree. There is nothing that I have seen different about this trigger compared to the stock trigger and again have experienced no problems with the safety being compromised.
My accuracy has improved with the trigger pull, not monumentally, but enough that it is noticeable. The consistent pull and smoothness of the trigger are benefits that seem to only help with being able to break the shot consistently. The price is high, but the quality of the trigger along with the refresh of many of the worn down parts in my Glock was well worth the price of admission. For the record I did not install this trigger. While I have done many trigger swaps on my rifles I have never messed with a handgun trigger and therefore went to a qualified gunsmith. It took him approximately 25 minutes to complete the install. Please let me know if you have any questions and I hope that this helps some who are considering this product.
Interesting thread thus far with a lot of intensity, I like it!! That said I have had a great experience with the Skimmer trigger. It seems that those who have posted have identified that both Glocktriggers and Travis have stated that there have been no changes to the safety features with this trigger kit. So here is where it gets interesting.
Travis has stated that he will not even comment on a products effectiveness without a minimum 10,000 rounds through the system and many more before he would consider endorsing one to the public. His knowledge of the Glock system comes with many more rounds than that put through the system. Mr. Wilson has produced thousands if not tens of thousands of Glock triggers.
With their combined knowledge it is hard to believe that they wouldn't know exactly what was happening with this trigger. An earlier post commented perhaps tongue and cheek that Jeff must not understand how the drop safety works in a Glock. If not tongue and cheek that is an exceedingly unlikely claim. Which leaves us with this reality, if it is true that this drop safety feature is compromised than one or both Travis and Jeff have misrepresented the product. Not just any product, but one that is used to take or save lives. A product that they have tied their names and reputations to and to which they are legally liable for in the event that it fails. Make no doubt about the fact that you are stating that both these men are either ignorant as to the function of their product or they are lying about it. There is no in-between ground here to be occupied. That in and of itself is a monumental claim unless someone here has in fact heard or received a message from one of them stating that they are aware that the drop safety was compromised. No safety recall has been issued or disclaimers made to indicate that either has noticed this significant failure in the product design that I have seen on either of their websites.
Color me a skeptic at this point, but if it is true and a recall is issued for a misrepresented product then I will be the first to send mine back to the factory for modifications. Also perhaps I missed it since this thread is almost 9 pages deep, but has anybody alerted Jeff or Travis to this thread and requested a response? Has anybody attempted to verify their thoughts regarding the claims being made as to their reputations or products? It would seem that some have spoken with Jeff and he has answered them that no changes were made to the factory safeties or especially changes that would result in a drop safety failure (correct me if I am wrong on this point). I for one am very interested in their opinions and thoughts and if not already done will email both with the link to this thread in order to see if they will respond.
I have trained with Travis and have a tremendous amount of respect for him and his opinions on products and have had great experiences ordering from Jeff with no failures to this point in his products. This is a big enough problem if true to not simply rant about it on a forum without seeking a resolution that will correct the issue with this trigger kit if it exists.
I thought that the skimmer just made the Glock "pre-cocked" ala M&P and PPQ?
Great Review! It's always neat to see what the person who actually uses a product thinks.
I know Jeff pretty well. I'll ask him about the safeties.
FYI Jeff is an excellent master level competitive shooter and a Glock Armoror Instructor.
I have shot this trigger and it's nice.
Jeff has been great with both customer service and product design/delivery. The trigger has been awesome and I will be getting another. I am definitely interested in hearing his thoughts and have no doubts about the trigger.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 21:36
It's not a big deal, it's the equivalent the removing the seat belts or airbags from your vehicle.
Ok then the same applies to all those carrying 1911 without firing pin safeties. Seems those folks have not had much of a problem.
Pat
Does no one know how to pick up a phone anymore. I keep seeing "I'd like to get Jeff's answer on the question"... Do what I did, call him up, ask him. I did that way back before I even ordered the trigger, asked him about THIS specific "issue" and his words were "no safeties are compromised on this design and that THOROUGH testing and hard abuse had been out through it with no "safety" issues"
DreadPirateMoyer
09-05-13, 21:59
Ok then the same applies to all those carrying 1911 without firing pin safeties. Seems those folks have not had much of a problem.
Pat
I tend to agree with the sentiment, but don't 1911s have firing pin springs to help prevent NDs, whereas Glocks do not?
Does no one know how to pick up a phone anymore. I keep seeing "I'd like to get Jeff's answer on the question"... Do what I did, call him up, ask him. I did that way back before I even ordered the trigger, asked him about THIS specific "issue" and his words were "no safeties are compromised on this design and that THOROUGH testing and hard abuse had been out through it with no "safety" issues"
I think we get that. We know what's been claimed about the trigger. The issue is that a very well respected staff member here who knows his way around a Glock (as well as many other guns) has said that he has installed them and they do compromise a safety. What motivation does he have to contradict the maker's claim? None other than providing a public service.
Does no one know how to pick up a phone anymore. I keep seeing "I'd like to get Jeff's answer on the question"... Do what I did, call him up, ask him. I did that way back before I even ordered the trigger, asked him about THIS specific "issue" and his words were "no safeties are compromised on this design and that THOROUGH testing and hard abuse had been out through it with no "safety" issues"
Not the answer that's needed. Robb posted his video to a public view. I personally have no deep understanding how Glocks work, but I have seen the video and it looks compelling. I actually have little doubt in integrity of all parties involved, Robb's, or Skimmer's developers. However, a resolution here is not a statement of "we've tested it" but an explanation why Robb got results that he got, whether expressed privately over the phone or online. Until it is done that way, it is their word vs his video, and we know that one picture is worth thousand words.
P.S. it is beyond me why my post is preceded by a grin.
kantstudien
09-05-13, 22:53
Ok then the same applies to all those carrying 1911 without firing pin safeties. Seems those folks have not had much of a problem.
Pat
Not really analogous. If you have a Series 70 1911, then you never had a firing pin safety in the first place.
Completely different situation from removing/disabling safety mechanisms that were specifically designed for a particular firearm.
Not saying that this Skimmer trigger does (or doesn't), just commenting on the analogy.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 23:02
Not really analogous. If you have a Series 70 1911, then you never had a firing pin safety in the first place.
Completely different situation from removing/disabling safety mechanisms that were specifically designed for a particular firearm.
Not saying that this Skimmer trigger does (or doesn't), just commenting on the analogy.
From a practical stand point its the same. Is it possible for the guns to fire if they are dropped on their muzzle with the 1911 the answer is yes with the Skimmer perhaps as I have not seen any tests. So far mine has not given me any lost sleep. I understand peoples concern but I fell its mostly academic.
Pat
Not the answer that's needed. Robb posted his video to a public view. I personally have no deep understanding how Glocks work, but I have seen the video and it looks compelling. I actually have little doubt in integrity of all parties involved, Robb's, or Skimmer's developers. However, a resolution here is not a statement of "we've tested it" but an explanation why Robb got results that he got, whether expressed privately over the phone or online. Until it is done that way, it is their word vs his video, and we know that one picture is worth thousand words.
P.S. it is beyond me why my post is preceded by a grin.
And i have a major respect for Robb! His knowledge of Glock's has been a HUGE help to me through tons of reading through his previous posts! I guess I read wrong but when I called Jeff before ordering mine I simply told him that i read that the drop safety was compromised and he assured me it was still functional. I First installed this on a beater 19 I have and dropped the gun multiple times, threw it, slammed it into my workbench etc doing all could to get the safety feature to fail and had no luck which was enough for me to trust it. However I would like to see more video demo of this issue from both ends
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 23:26
And i have a major respect for Robb! His knowledge of Glock's has been a HUGE help to me through tons of reading through his previous posts! I guess I read wrong but when I called Jeff before ordering mine I simply told him that i read that the drop safety was compromised and he assured me it was still functional. I First installed this on a beater 19 I have and dropped the gun multiple times, threw it, slammed it into my workbench etc doing all could to get the safety feature to fail and had no luck which was enough for me to trust it. However I would like to see more video demo of this issue from both ends
Thanks for doing those tests.
pat
From a practical stand point its the same. Is it possible for the guns to fire if they are dropped on their muzzle with the 1911 the answer is yes with the Skimmer perhaps as I have not seen any tests. So far mine has not given me any lost sleep. I understand peoples concern but I fell its mostly academic.
Pat
One has a course of action with 1911, which is a titanium firing pin and extra strength spring. This is a well tested option. While I am sure there are titanium pins for Glocks, I don't think they are well tested, and striker fired pistols already tend to hit primers slightly weaker than hammer fired guns.
Alaskapopo
09-05-13, 23:48
One has a course of action with 1911, which is a titanium firing pin and extra strength spring. This is a well tested option. While I am sure there are titanium pins for Glocks, I don't think they are well tested, and striker fired pistols already tend to hit primers slightly weaker than hammer fired guns.
I am happy with the fact mikeith tested the hell out of it and it did not fire.
Pat
Robb Jensen
09-06-13, 06:45
Ok then the same applies to all those carrying 1911 without firing pin safeties. Seems those folks have not had much of a problem.
Pat
Your comparison is illogical. John Browning didn't invent a firing pin safety on the 1911. Gaston Glock DID design his pistol with 3 passive safeties not 1 not 2 BUT 3.
Adding a firing pin safety to a 1911 is like adding air bags to a 57 Chevy. The 57 Chevy doesn't have the co-engineered crumble zones and shoulder retraints to aid in the usage of airbags. Gaston didn't design his safeties to be optional.
There's an old saying "there is no free lunch". In the case of the Skimmer Trigger it has compromised a safety to shorten the trigger stroke. Buyer beware.
It's just a matter of time before I get a subpoena to testify in court as a SME as to how the Glock safeties work and how defeating them is irresponsible. I have 26yrs of experience using them and the certification of Glock Advanced Armorer in my bonafides folder.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 10:20
Your comparison is illogical. John Browning didn't invent a firing pin safety on the 1911. Gaston Glock DID design his pistol with 3 passive safeties not 1 not 2 BUT 3.
Adding a firing pin safety to a 1911 is like adding air bags to a 57 Chevy. The 57 Chevy doesn't have the co-engineered crumble zones and shoulder retraints to aid in the usage of airbags. Gaston didn't design his safeties to be optional.
There's an old saying "there is no free lunch". In the case of the Skimmer Trigger it has compromised a safety to shorten the trigger stroke. Buyer beware.
It's just a matter of time before I get a subpoena to testify in court as a SME as to how the Glock safeties work and how defeating them is irresponsible. I have 26yrs of experience using them and the certification of Glock Advanced Armorer in my bonafides folder.
I respect your view and your experience. However what I care about is if the gun is safe to carry or not. If a 1911 is safe to carry with no firing pin safety then so is a Glock. Disabling safety devices is only an issue if you are in a shooting and you hit the wrong target. People have carried 1911's for years with pinned grip safeties with no issues. Simple solution is to hit what your aiming at and the Skimmer trigger makes that easier.
Pat
Robb Jensen
09-06-13, 11:12
I respect your view and your experience. However what I care about is if the gun is safe to carry or not. If a 1911 is safe to carry with no firing pin safety then so is a Glock. Disabling safety devices is only an issue if you are in a shooting and you hit the wrong target. People have carried 1911's for years with pinned grip safeties with no issues. Simple solution is to hit what your aiming at and the Skimmer trigger makes that easier.
Pat
The 1911 "was" a service pistol. I carry a Glock 19 concealed and a Glock 17 at work.
Alaskapopo
09-06-13, 11:20
The 1911 "was" a service pistol. I carry a Glock 19 concealed and a Glock 17 at work.
I carry a Glock 17 and 19 like you do as well but the 1911 is still used as a service pistol by a lot of folks. So its still a service pistol.
Pat
Robb Jensen
09-07-13, 09:17
I carry a Glock 17 and 19 like you do as well but the 1911 is still used as a service pistol by a lot of folks. So its still a service pistol.
Pat
I shot the Quantico WTBn Combat Shooting 3GN match this spring with some MARSOC trigger pullers. Everyone knows they signed a contract with Colt for a 1911. Two of them beat me in the match, neither were shooting a keep-a-2112-employed 1911...
They were shooting issued guns, no 1911s present that day. And no they weren't shooting M9s or M9a1s either.
I shot the Quantico WTBn Combat Shooting 3GN match this spring with some MARSOC trigger pullers. Everyone knows they signed a contract with Colt for a 1911. Two of them beat me in the match, neither were shooting a keep-a-2112-employed 1911...
They were shooting issued guns, no 1911s present that day. And no they weren't shooting M9s or M9a1s either.
Curiosity is killing me. What were they shooting?? HK? Sig?
Robb Jensen
09-07-13, 11:38
Curiosity is killing me. What were they shooting?? HK? Sig?
Neither of those and they own several hundred with Trijicon night sights.
Neither of those and they own several hundred with Trijicon night sights.
Now that you bring it up, I'm guessing a glock. Haley & G-Code posted this T&E report on the INCOG and a Glock 19.
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz267/edmateo50/1378573571_zps16356816.jpg
If I recall, Glocks were purchased to help our instructors train security forces in the Middle East.
Robb Jensen
09-07-13, 13:56
Ding ding ding!
Gen3 G19s but I recall Safariland ALS holsters.
Ding ding ding!
Gen3 G19s but I recall Safariland ALS holsters.
Sweet. ALS is a great choice for general issue. I'm sure the INCOG was just a T&E holster or a small amount were purchased for a very specific job. Thanks for info.
Now back on topic. Has anyone blown their junk off with the skimmer trigger yet?
Well I didn't blow my junk off, but I did end up taking it out. It was not near as smooth as I would have thought for the price. I will be leaving my stock trigger in for carry.
Well I didn't blow my junk off, but I did end up taking it out. It was not near as smooth as I would have thought for the price. I will be leaving my stock trigger in for carry.
The stamped metal pieces have not been made flat, then it will never be much to any smoother than a factory setup.
C4
skullworks
12-26-13, 10:09
From a practical stand point its the same. Is it possible for the guns to fire if they are dropped on their muzzle with the 1911 the answer is yes with the Skimmer perhaps as I have not seen any tests. So far mine has not given me any lost sleep. I understand peoples concern but I fell its mostly academic.
Pat
First off, sorry for being late to the party.
From Robb's video we can see that the drop safety can be disengaged by force on a Skimmer trigger. What is as of yet unknown is the amount of force (or from what height drop) we're talking about to incur the same amount of force that Robb incurred using the Glock Armorer's Tool. From a safety standpoint the Glock still has a Firing Pin Safety that will prevent the Firing Pin from contacting the primer unless the trigger is being pulled at the same time. Thus, again, from a safety stand point this is not optimal, but it is satisfactory as the weapon cannot inadvertently be made to fire without manipulating the trigger.
However, from a usage standpoint - ESPECIALLY from a carry standpoint - this is unsatisfactory as a drop could render the firearm temporary inoperable. If the drop safety is disengaged as Robb showed in the video it requires you to reset the trigger pin behind the trigger bar by pulling the slide to the rear (otherwise you will get a mushy trigger and no PEW!)
I would like to stress the fact that the only question that needs answering is how much force it takes to disengage the drop safety - and what that amount of force would equal in a real application; are we talking a drop from 3 feet, 10 feet, 30 feet, or more?
jukeboxx13
12-06-14, 11:26
Your comparison is illogical. John Browning didn't invent a firing pin safety on the 1911. Gaston Glock DID design his pistol with 3 passive safeties not 1 not 2 BUT 3.
Adding a firing pin safety to a 1911 is like adding air bags to a 57 Chevy. The 57 Chevy doesn't have the co-engineered crumble zones and shoulder retraints to aid in the usage of airbags. Gaston didn't design his safeties to be optional.
There's an old saying "there is no free lunch". In the case of the Skimmer Trigger it has compromised a safety to shorten the trigger stroke. Buyer beware.
It's just a matter of time before I get a subpoena to testify in court as a SME as to how the Glock safeties work and how defeating them is irresponsible. I have 26yrs of experience using them and the certification of Glock Advanced Armorer in my bonafides folder.
Glad I found this thread before deciding to buy a skimmer.
I'll pass.
MountainRaven
12-06-14, 14:08
Since we're necro'ing and I've been looking at the Skimmer....
First off, sorry for being late to the party.
From Robb's video we can see that the drop safety can be disengaged by force on a Skimmer trigger. What is as of yet unknown is the amount of force (or from what height drop) we're talking about to incur the same amount of force that Robb incurred using the Glock Armorer's Tool. From a safety standpoint the Glock still has a Firing Pin Safety that will prevent the Firing Pin from contacting the primer unless the trigger is being pulled at the same time. Thus, again, from a safety stand point this is not optimal, but it is satisfactory as the weapon cannot inadvertently be made to fire without manipulating the trigger.
However, from a usage standpoint - ESPECIALLY from a carry standpoint - this is unsatisfactory as a drop could render the firearm temporary inoperable. If the drop safety is disengaged as Robb showed in the video it requires you to reset the trigger pin behind the trigger bar by pulling the slide to the rear (otherwise you will get a mushy trigger and no PEW!)
I would like to stress the fact that the only question that needs answering is how much force it takes to disengage the drop safety - and what that amount of force would equal in a real application; are we talking a drop from 3 feet, 10 feet, 30 feet, or more?
It seems to me that if you drop your pistol, pick it back up, get a mushy trigger with neither click nor bang, that an immediate action drill should clear it up. Which is what you should probably do any time you get the mush trigger with neither click nor bang, anyway.
As far as factory safeties being disabled: It seems to me that lots more people have disabled the magazine disconnect safeties on their Browning Hi-Powers and the grip safeties on their 1911s (there's supposed to be a 1911 at the Texas Ranger museum that has the grip safety tied down) than on their Glocks. And I've never heard of anybody getting in trouble for any of these issues.
I think in my not very highly educated opinion, that the most likely to be true thing lies between Jeff and Robb: Which is to say that the Skimmer doesn't completely disable the drop safety but renders it much more easily disabled during the normal operation of firing the weapon. Thus producing the results that Robb has seen with the trigger while Jeff and Travis can also truthfully say that the trigger has been thoroughly tested without issue. In essence, that they're both correct.
Slammed my G19 on the carpet as hard as I could throw it. It landed on the back end and out 8 slams I got it to disengage the drop safety twice. So I pulled the trigger and got a light click with no fire. So I guess I wonder if a round was in the pipe would it have fired or would it have just gave me a lame trigger where I would have to tap rack. Thats too bad because this trigger really makes a difference.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.