View Full Version : FBI is watching you!
I thought you all might be interested in this ! Seems if you like AR's, top quality optics, night vision etc and attend Training classes, buy alot of ammo, your now on there radar as terrorist!:rolleyes:
http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/FBInotice00.pdf
Just more love from out Government.:eek:
That is a real stretch from an advisory flyer. Tin foil getting a little tight?
I thought you all might be interested in this ! Seems if you like AR's, top quality optics, night vision etc and attend Training classes, buy alot of ammo, your now on there radar as terrorist!:rolleyes:
http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/FBInotice00.pdf
Just more love from out Government.:eek:
I got this letter in the Summer. Agent came to my shop and dropped it off.
He told me to be on the lookout for anyone that was interested in "tactical" training. Uhmm no one here interested in that. :jester:
C4
Littlelebowski
12-21-11, 21:57
Sad and ****ing retarded.
Belmont31R
12-21-11, 22:01
A return of the 90's war on "militias" or supposed "anti government" types.
Waiting for a Janet Reno/Eric Holder type raid any day to pump up support against the "right wing".
Dionysusigma
12-21-11, 22:02
Maybe they're jealous and want to get in on the fun... :D
Friend of mine with the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia was one of the people that informed the FBI and related agencies on the existence and intents of Hutaree nutjobs. One of the things the SMVM teaches is cooperation with local authorities and response crews in times of need. Heck, they're more like Grown-Up Scouts than anything else. :)
Lately, every time I look up at that stars I've taken to waving back.
He told me to be on the lookout for anyone that was interested in "tactical" training. ......
Just wait- next thing you know there'll be a whole new round of discussions and restrictions on what constitutes "tactical" training and who should be allowed, or what hoops you'll have to jump through to attend. Can see it now.... :rolleyes:
variablebinary
12-22-11, 00:57
A return of the 90's war on "militias" or supposed "anti government" types.
Waiting for a Janet Reno/Eric Holder type raid any day to pump up support against the "right wing".
Why send one team to raid a location when you can deal guns to Mexican cartels and carpet bomb the whole nation with violence and corresponding reactionary gun laws.
Hi!
(at the camera) :D :meeting:
Moose-Knuckle
12-22-11, 01:15
Nothing "tinfoil" :rolleyes: here, they’re not looking for Middle Eastern males of military age wielding box cutters and taking flying lessons.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/fbiflyer.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
Now that the NDAA was passed it's only a matter of time before we start seeing more Ruby Ridges and Wacos.
arizonaranchman
12-22-11, 06:41
Just a reminder that the greatest threat to you and to this nation is our own Federal Government. When the Feds fear the people that's a big red flag. According to the modern day DHS our founding fathers were right wing extremists who'd have been targeted for daring to believe in small government.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
Top left hand corner: The very fact that they would admit that those who 'defend the constitution' that this nation was founded on and would be anti-current federal government speaks volumes & is almost an admission of knowledge of wrong doing & guilt in and of itself.
I called the FBI and they said that they were not watching me. Also they were kind enough to tell me that my left rear tire was low and I should have it looked at. Nice caring people if you ask me. :sarcastic:
Nothing "tinfoil" :rolleyes: here, they’re not looking for Middle Eastern males of military age wielding box cutters and taking flying lessons.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/fbiflyer.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
Making numerous references to the Constitution make you a terrorist or possible terrorist :blink:
I did get a funny look from the cashier at Dick's last week when 9mm was on sale for around $9 a box and buying 6 of them. Yeah, that will be gone in one or two range sessions.
Just wait- next thing you know there'll be a whole new round of discussions and restrictions on what constitutes "tactical" training and who should be allowed, or what hoops you'll have to jump through to attend. Can see it now....
...and licensing of instructors... Gotta protect the public you know.
Now that the NDAA was passed it's only a matter of time before we start seeing more Ruby Ridges and Wacos.
Sadly, there are people on both sides of the fence who are waiting for that day to come.
I did get a funny look from the cashier at Dick's last week when 9mm was on sale for around $9 a box and buying 6 of them. Yeah, that will be gone in one or two range sessions.
This is why I like Utah (and similar places)... When I didn't have time to load 9mm, and I had a class coming up, I bought 18 50rd boxes of 9 and 2 100rd WWB at Wal-Mart. Guy was happy to sell them and when I told him what I was doing, he was jealous ;-)
devildogljb
12-22-11, 18:45
Making numerous references to the Constitution make you a terrorist or possible terrorist :blink:
I did get a funny look from the cashier at Dick's last week when 9mm was on sale for around $9 a box and buying 6 of them. Yeah, that will be gone in one or two range sessions.
so if a random cop comes up to me and ask me who i am for no reason and i say im not going to give my name, im a terrorist? I make a few references to the constitution im a terrorist ? I take the magpul advanced carbine class im a terrorist ? Who the hell makes this shit up. I want to know what our members who are law enforcement think of this?
Magic_Salad0892
12-22-11, 21:00
The government should be ****ing ashamed.
It's a Goddamn shame that my ancestors came here, fought in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq and Afghanistan and I personally lost a few friends in the sandbox. All so I can be free to be labeled a potential terrorist for embracing the Constitution :suicide2:
VooDoo6Actual
12-22-11, 22:21
I called the FBI and they said that they were not watching me. Also they were kind enough to tell me that my left rear tire was low and I should have it looked at. Nice caring people if you ask me. :sarcastic:
BEST one of the month, thanks.
The most frustrating & irritating part of it is not only is it true, but that SOME LEA/LEO will berate, belittle you as if your not only paranoid but a Tinfoil Hat cart blanche member.
I have never seen this country so jacked or messed up.
I certainly hope this current trend/funk/darkness ends soon as it has made my circle smaller than I ever thought possible.
I have never witnessed such elitism, hypocrisy, double standards, apathy, deceit, evil intent, venality, virulence, corruption in all my travels all around the world.
When people start quoting mainstream media as the only legit viable source of information & it's been proven it's conflicted, corrupted & flat out lying, you know it's time to "pop smoke" & check out of blogs, dialogues, discussions, relationships, friendships etc.
Doesn't look like it's getting better anytime soon either, no DOUBT "Spartan-like AUSTERE" times ahead for most people....If you can't see it by now your deluding yourself w/ the BS you've been infected with....Bad Ju Ju coming....Look at the loss of rights in general since we started seeing the trends more than 1 year ago. Your not being intellectually honest w/ yourself if you cannot see the changes.
Wanna bet how many people will sell out the their Constitutional Oaths for their found "new religions" .... Deus Vult
I know move along folks nothing to see....
HOPLOETHOS
I can not agree more with what you said. :D I like many here have taken that oath and when one takes of the uniform it doesn't end there like I told my very liberal sister, it's for life and for as long as I breath I will defend it!:D
I called the FBI and they said that they were not watching me. Also they were kind enough to tell me that my left rear tire was low and I should have it looked at. Nice caring people if you ask me. :sarcastic:
hahahahhahaaa........................lmfao!! :lol:
HOPLOETHOS
I can not agree more with what you said. :D I like many here have taken that oath and when one takes of the uniform it doesn't end there like I told my very liberal sister, it's for life and for as long as I breath I will defend it!:D
Amen......and i'd say that next to the Israelis we have the largest population of well trained former military civvies in the world. Sure a lot of coutries have 2yr conscript militaries but that's Jr league......
Amen......and i'd say that next to the Israelis we have the largest population of well trained former military civvies in the world. Sure a lot of coutries have 2yr conscript militaries but that's Jr league......
Our population of Magpul Dynamic video owners alone could take out the world's conscript military factions. :D
Littlelebowski
12-23-11, 07:15
Agreed. It's depressing. I just recently had a forum member here challenge me to show any rights we have lost due to the war on terror. He apparently does not think we have lost any......
I'm getting to the point where I can't differentiate which camp is which since they're all spoon fed and toe the party line.
BEST one of the month, thanks.
The most frustrating & irritating part of it is not only is it true, but that SOME LEA/LEO will berate, belittle you as if your not only paranoid but a Tinfoil Hat cart blanche member.
I have never seen this country so jacked or messed up.
I certainly hope this current trend/funk/darkness ends soon as it has made my circle smaller than I ever thought possible.
I have never witnessed such elitism, hypocrisy, double standards, apathy, deceit, evil intent, venality, virulence, corruption in all my travels all around the world.
When people start quoting mainstream media as the only legit viable source of information & it's been proven it's conflicted, corrupted & flat out lying, you know it's time to "pop smoke" & check out of blogs, dialogues, discussions, relationships, friendships etc.
Doesn't look like it's getting better anytime soon either, no DOUBT "Spartan-like AUSTERE" times ahead for most people....If you can't see it by now your deluding yourself w/ the BS you've been infected with....Bad Ju Ju coming....Look at the loss of rights in general since we started seeing the trends more than 1 year ago. Your not being intellectually honest w/ yourself if you cannot see the changes.
Wanna bet how many people will sell out the their Constitutional Oaths for their new found religions.... Deus Vult
I know move along folks nothing to see....
QuietShootr
12-23-11, 07:26
It'll be interesting to see which one of us gets disappeared first under NDAA. And it will be even more interesting to see what bullshit they plant to make the masses cry for that person's blood, or if it'll just be POOF, no more Hoploethos, for instance?
The_War_Wagon
12-23-11, 08:18
Beware groups that travel 'illogical distances' to train?!?!
Welllll... CRAP. There goes our PA/WV/OH group trip to Bermuda, I reckon... :jester:
Moose-Knuckle
12-23-11, 11:46
Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana
“An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our Homeland.” - Adolf Hitler
In response to the false flag op that came to be known as the Reichstag Fire Hitler created the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State.
The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With Nazis in powerful positions in the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the Nazis, and to suppress publications not considered “friendly” to the Nazi cause. The decree is considered by historians to be one of the key steps in the establishment of a one-party Nazi state in Germany.
And we all know how that worked out for them in the end. . .
HOPLOETHOS
I can not agree more with what you said. :D I like many here have taken that oath and when one takes of the uniform it doesn't end there like I told my very liberal sister, it's for life and for as long as I breath I will defend it!:D
Great minds think alike, that is my next tat I drew up awhile ago. "Defense of freedom does not end when one takes off their uniform."
Are you sure you're not a fed hacking into my computer and looking at my ms paint :ph34r:
That and my John Adams quote below.
30 cal slut
12-24-11, 07:44
Hi!
(at the camera) :D :meeting:
oh dear. does my AR make me look fat?
Good stuff gents...Nice to see the 1st ammendment alive and well even with depressing direction our nation is swinging.
Be blessed...
Beware groups that travel 'illogical distances' to train?!?!
Welllll... CRAP. There goes our PA/WV/OH group trip to Bermuda, I reckon... :jester:
Hrmm I don't remember a rolling Gunsite/Frontsite/Thunder Ranch. :sarcastic:
30 cal slut
12-24-11, 10:03
i guess i should stow this subversive contraband somewhere safe. :confused:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/merchandise.jpg
eternal24k
12-24-11, 10:04
shitty thing is that this attitude permeates all aspects of society, I am sick of being judged and forced to defend what should be a no brainer; the concept of being able to defend one's life and the life of others or survive in a SHTF scenario is almost taboo now, yet every day crazy shit happens all over the country, and just look at how much ****ed up shit has happened in the past 100 years.
30 cal slut
12-24-11, 10:25
Beware groups that travel 'illogical distances' to train?!?!
Don't forget the safe houses man, the safe houses.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/cracker_barrel.jpg
Which field office is watching me? My local agents are up to their eyeballs in golf, administrative reindeer games, and oh yeah...violent people-crimes.
In response to the false flag op that came to be known as the Reichstag Fire Hitler created the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State.
The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With Nazis in powerful positions in the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the Nazis, and to suppress publications not considered “friendly” to the Nazi cause. The decree is considered by historians to be one of the key steps in the establishment of a one-party Nazi state in Germany.
And we all know how that worked out for them in the end. . .
it's a bit of a precarious balance you're bringing up. protecting the homeland and then at the same time going after terrorists.
do we not go after terrorists? because as fervently as many are advocating in this thread it sounds like "we" have assumed the cost of liberty, which is that terrorist attacks are a fact of life and an assumed cost of living freely.
btw, i'm not advocating that we give up our liberties. i'm just trying to get a barometer of the times. a few years ago i had similar discussions and concluded that some day, in order to keep our liberties, the public would have to accept that terrorism happens and is a cost of living freely. that official retribution isn't possible without some level of compromise for everyone else. the "extrajudicial killing" of anwar al-awlaki is just one of the examples of how if you let a system run for long enough you'll find all the grey areas that aren't covered in policy and those grey areas when solidified will either compromise freedom or security.
many many say those who will trade freedom for security deserve neither, however many of those same people also supported the war. it's... precarious.
GeorgiaBoy
12-25-11, 00:23
I know that it seems like its the worst today, but you have to keep in mind that government interference and intrusion in our lives has exited forever in this country's history. Its not as if we lived in a fairy tale world were the dual federalism existed peacefully for the first 220 years and then suddenly became corrupt.
- 1789 President Washington sent 15,000 armed militia from 4 different states to crush the Whiskey Rebellion.
-1798 President Adams signs in to law the Alien and Sedition acts, jailing anyone who wrote "false, scandalous or malicious" accusations about the government.
- 1860s, Lincoln authorized arrests of media reporters and editors who did not support the war, closed ports, suspended Habeas Corpus in several jurisdictions.
- World War II and aftermath dawned a new age of conspiracy and government secrecy. As did the progressive era. Communists = terrorists of the time. People were told to watch for their suspicious behavior and report any possible spies, Communists,ect.
Moose-Knuckle
12-25-11, 03:39
it's a bit of a precarious balance you're bringing up. protecting the homeland and then at the same time going after terrorists.
do we not go after terrorists? because as fervently as many are advocating in this thread it sounds like "we" have assumed the cost of liberty, which is that terrorist attacks are a fact of life and an assumed cost of living freely.
btw, i'm not advocating that we give up our liberties. i'm just trying to get a barometer of the times. a few years ago i had similar discussions and concluded that some day, in order to keep our liberties, the public would have to accept that terrorism happens and is a cost of living freely. that official retribution isn't possible without some level of compromise for everyone else. the "extrajudicial killing" of anwar al-awlaki is just one of the examples of how if you let a system run for long enough you'll find all the grey areas that aren't covered in policy and those grey areas when solidified will either compromise freedom or security.
many many say those who will trade freedom for security deserve neither, however many of those same people also supported the war. it's... precarious.
After the Reichstag Fire false flag op Hitler created the Gestapo and passed his Protection of People and State decree in order to "protect the homeland".
After 9/11 we created the DHS and passed the Patriot Act in order to "protect the homeland".
As for terrorists, just who are they? The Federal government tells We the People that male Islamic extremist; fifteen from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon carried out the attacks on 9/11. So why do 91 year old American women get stripped searched by the TSA, or toddlers get pat downs and placed on no fly lists?
The DOJ handouts presented in this thread are not targeting the people that we were told terrorized our nation.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
After the Reichstag Fire false flag op Hitler created the Gestapo and passed his Protection of People and State decree in order to "protect the homeland".
After 9/11 we created the DHS and passed the Patriot Act in order to "protect the homeland".
As for terrorists, just who are they? The Federal government tells We the People that male Islamic extremist; fifteen from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon carried out the attacks on 9/11. So why do 91 year old American women get stripped searched by the TSA, or toddlers get pat downs and placed on no fly lists?
The DOJ handouts presented in this thread are not targeting the people that we were told terrorized our nation.
people are searched by tsa because an airplane is a guaranteed amount of casualties should one go down and even more should one go down on an intended target.
there have been homegrown jihadists that are caucasian. a jihadists can look like anyone. so there shouldn't be any discrimination in who gets searched. i'm sure you're not an advocate of racial profiling.
the department of homeland security, to my knowledge, didn't create any new institutions that didn't previously exist. it just relabeled and reorganized a lot of agencies under the premise that we're doing something about homeland security and also under the banner of sharing information between fewer clearing houses of intel so that another 911 doesn't happen due to information that was available not being acted upon.
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
QuietShootr
12-25-11, 10:05
people are searched by tsa because an airplane is a guaranteed amount of casualties should one go down and even more should one go down on an intended target.
there have been homegrown jihadists that are caucasian. a jihadists can look like anyone. so there shouldn't be any discrimination in who gets searched. i'm sure you're not an advocate of racial profiling.
the department of homeland security, to my knowledge, didn't create any new institutions that didn't previously exist. it just relabeled and reorganized a lot of agencies under the premise that we're doing something about homeland security and also under the banner of sharing information between fewer clearing houses of intel so that another 911 doesn't happen due to information that was available not being acted upon.
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
I do not speak for anyone but myself, but I am indeed saying that. Freedom is inherently dangerous, but nearly unlimited government power is far MORE dangerous.
Matter of fact, I believe that a facility like Gunsite or Rogers could easily develop a 'shooting inside an airplane' curriculum that would suffice nicely for an endorsement on a civilian carry license. Requal at your expense twice a year, and rock on. Have the endorsement? Welcome to American Airlines, sir. You don't have the training, sorry, you'll need to check your weapon like everyone else.
The feds' Flying Armed class for LE is a ****ing joke.
Anyway... Yes, I am willing to take the chance of being blown up not to have cameras and relational databases cataloging everything everybody does. The chances of my getting ****ed by someone watching my every move are a lot higher than my getting blown to hell by hajis/nazis/whatever.
montanadave
12-25-11, 12:11
Don't forget the safe houses man, the safe houses.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/cracker_barrel.jpg
:lol:
Yeah, that might as well change the name of that joint to "Seditionists 'R Us."
:lol:
Yeah, that might as well change the name of that joint to "Seditionists 'R Us."
side note, cracker barrel has the best gummy bears
I do not speak for anyone but myself, but I am indeed saying that. Freedom is inherently dangerous, but nearly unlimited government power is far MORE dangerous.
Matter of fact, I believe that a facility like Gunsite or Rogers could easily develop a 'shooting inside an airplane' curriculum that would suffice nicely for an endorsement on a civilian carry license. Requal at your expense twice a year, and rock on. Have the endorsement? Welcome to American Airlines, sir. You don't have the training, sorry, you'll need to check your weapon like everyone else.
The feds' Flying Armed class for LE is a ****ing joke.
Anyway... Yes, I am willing to take the chance of being blown up not to have cameras and relational databases cataloging everything everybody does. The chances of my getting ****ed by someone watching my every move are a lot higher than my getting blown to hell by hajis/nazis/whatever.
have you attended the federal flying armed class?
is flying armed just about training? i think it's about being vetted, vetted to bring the firearm onto an airplane. in the context that anyone can be a jihadist would we want to open this up to everyone? i fully recognize that people in federal law enforcement could be terrorists too, but that policy would have to be very carefully weighed and i think you know how the people would choose...
and for what it's worth, i've met a few air marshals in my life and i don't think their training is a joke, nor is it just about "shooting inside an airplane." i however fully recognize that the training for other federal law enforcement may differ, but would still have a hard time believing it's just about "shooting inside an airplane."
i'm wondering where your concerns about cameras and databases is based on. databases and camera systems existed before the department of homeland security. where do you think these databases come from? are your words not documented right now on this forum? your email, credit card you used over the holiday season, cell phone bill which documents all the calls you've made and received, bank which tracks all your transactions with them, credit rating agency which tracks all your financials, atm cameras you've passed by, security cameras in gas stations and banks and warehouses and business buildings. these are all privately owned systems of information REQUIRED for modern life.
perhaps you're advocating banning the government from accessing this type of information? perhaps you're advocating that it should be illegal for companies to put up cameras or keep records? please help me understand what the idealized world would look like for you.
QuietShootr
12-25-11, 15:37
have you attended the federal flying armed class?
is flying armed just about training? i think it's about being vetted, vetted to bring the firearm onto an airplane. in the context that anyone can be a jihadist would we want to open this up to everyone?
Oh, is 'jihadist' what we're worried about now? Those intelligence flyers that were posted earlier have jack and shit to do with 'jihadists'. If we were really interested in preventing terrorist attacks on airplanes, we'd prohibit Muslims (and I know definitionally that's difficult, but it would be possible) from boarding aircraft. Clearly we don't have the balls for that, and I would have to think about the Constitutionality of such an action, but it would work to prevent almost all the attacks we've experienced to date. Sorry, Abdul, you're going to have to Amtrak it.
i fully recognize that people in federal law enforcement could be terrorists too, but that policy would have to be very carefully weighed and i think you know how the people would choose...
I don't really care what "the people" choose. "The People" got us into this situation in the first place. Unless or until the vote is restored to its intended franchise as originally designed (and please spare me the white supremacist accusations.) we're going to continue to spiral down the shitter. The Peepul (meaning the non-producers) have discovered they can vote themselves bread and circuses....only we're just about out of bread - and the circus that's going to commence when that happens isn't going to be fun for anyone.
and for what it's worth, i've met a few air marshals in my life and i don't think their training is a joke, nor is it just about "shooting inside an airplane." i however fully recognize that the training for other federal law enforcement may differ, but would still have a hard time believing it's just about "shooting inside an airplane."
Have you ever fired, and passed, the FAM qualification under the supervision of someone qualified to give it? I have. That's NOT what I was talking about when I referred to the Flying While Armed course.
i'm wondering where your concerns about cameras and databases is based on. databases and camera systems existed before the department of homeland security. where do you think these databases come from? are your words not documented right now on this forum? your email, credit card you used over the holiday season, cell phone bill which documents all the calls you've made and received, bank which tracks all your transactions with them, credit rating agency which tracks all your financials, atm cameras you've passed by, security cameras in gas stations and banks and warehouses and business buildings. these are all privately owned systems of information REQUIRED for modern life.
perhaps you're advocating banning the government from accessing this type of information? perhaps you're advocating that it should be illegal for companies to put up cameras or keep records? please help me understand what the idealized world would look like for you.
I'm not even going to address that last, except to say that if you don't value personal privacy, which you clearly do not, nothing I say will change your mind, so enjoy your surveillance state.
Oh, is 'jihadist' what we're worried about now? Those intelligence flyers that were posted earlier have jack and shit to do with 'jihadists'. If we were really interested in preventing terrorist attacks on airplanes, we'd prohibit Muslims (and I know definitionally that's difficult, but it would be possible) from boarding aircraft. Clearly we don't have the balls for that, and I would have to think about the Constitutionality of such an action, but it would work to prevent almost all the attacks we've experienced to date. Sorry, Abdul, you're going to have to Amtrak it.
the fliers name several groups. the ones that have to do with airplanes that we know of would be the "islamic extremest."
so you are for profiling whether it be for racial or religious reasons.
I don't really care what "the people" choose. "The People" got us into this situation in the first place. Unless or until the vote is restored to its intended franchise as originally designed (and please spare me the white supremacist accusations.) we're going to continue to spiral down the shitter. The Peepul (meaning the non-producers) have discovered they can vote themselves bread and circuses....only we're just about out of bread - and the circus that's going to commence when that happens isn't going to be fun for anyone.
is this facism that you're advocating for?
I'm not even going to address that last, except to say that if you don't value personal privacy, which you clearly do not, nothing I say will change your mind, so enjoy your surveillance state.
you say surveillance state, but the things that i named are not state sponsored. it's just stuff that is really kept track of that has to do with your daily life and your average person is hard pressed to avoid it.
again what exactly does the idealized world look like to you. it seems you're ok with compromising some people's freedoms based on race/religion. it appears based on that one statement that you are ok with special groups making the rules so that the brainless peons don't get in your way.
it doesn't sound like liberty or even libertarianism. it sounds like anarchistic capitalism, is that about right?
QuietShootr
12-25-11, 17:43
the fliers name several groups. the ones that have to do with airplanes that we know of would be the "islamic extremest."
so you are for profiling whether it be for racial or religious reasons.
Yup. I do it every day, and it works for me.
is this facism that you're advocating for?
No.
you say surveillance state, but the things that i named are not state sponsored. it's just stuff that is really kept track of that has to do with your daily life and your average person is hard pressed to avoid it.
again what exactly does the idealized world look like to you. it seems you're ok with compromising some people's freedoms based on race/religion. it appears based on that one statement that you are ok with special groups making the rules so that the brainless peons don't get in your way.
it doesn't sound like liberty or even libertarianism. it sounds like anarchistic capitalism, is that about right?
I'm not sure why you care what I think an ideal world looks like, but you might read Atlas Shrugged followed by The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, then Starship Troopers. You might begin to understand then.
Littlelebowski
12-25-11, 18:07
people are searched by tsa because an airplane is a guaranteed amount of casualties should one go down and even more should one go down on an intended target.
there have been homegrown jihadists that are caucasian. a jihadists can look like anyone. so there shouldn't be any discrimination in who gets searched. i'm sure you're not an advocate of racial profiling.
the department of homeland security, to my knowledge, didn't create any new institutions that didn't previously exist. it just relabeled and reorganized a lot of agencies under the premise that we're doing something about homeland security and also under the banner of sharing information between fewer clearing houses of intel so that another 911 doesn't happen due to information that was available not being acted upon.
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
Seriously dude, remember that rule about capitalizing the first letter of the first word in the sentence? Makes your thoughts easier to understand.
What rights are you willing to concede to the TSA? Clothing, pocketknives, x amount of liquids, your wife's privacy?
I'm not sure why you care what I think an ideal world looks like, but you might read Atlas Shrugged followed by The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, then Starship Troopers. You might begin to understand then.
well i'm trying to understand a viewpoint that's different from what i've come across so far. if you don't feel a need to be understood there'll be others who think like you that wish to explain i'm sure.
Seriously dude, remember that rule about capitalizing the first letter of the first word in the sentence? Makes your thoughts easier to understand.
sorry.
What rights are you willing to concede to the TSA? Clothing, pocketknives, x amount of liquids, your wife's privacy?
i'm not necessarily willing or unwilling to concede any rights. i mainly wish to understand differing viewpoints. i don't really feel strongly enough about any of the polarizing extremes to be an advocate for any side.
i do however like understanding the reasoning for people's viewpoints, it's interesting. i like to find out how far people have reduced their reasons and if they've covered all their bases. if they have then that lends more credibility to their views and then that viewpoint would seem to have more legitimacy in my eyes.
it would be interesting to find someone who is willing to sacrifice no freedom for the sake of safety and then pick their brain about all the reasons.
QuietShootr
12-26-11, 00:08
sorry.
i'm not necessarily willing or unwilling to concede any rights. i mainly wish to understand differing viewpoints. i don't really feel strongly enough about any of the polarizing extremes to be an advocate for any side.
i do however like understanding the reasoning for people's viewpoints, it's interesting. i like to find out how far people have reduced their reasons and if they've covered all their bases. if they have then that lends more credibility to their views and then that viewpoint would seem to have more legitimacy in my eyes.
it would be interesting to find someone who is willing to sacrifice no freedom for the sake of safety and then pick their brain about all the reasons.
I am willing to sacrifice almost no freedom for the sake of safety. It's because the alternative is far worse.
Have you walked the streets in a Communist country, a real Communist country? I have. I know what this bullshit we're doing now is heading toward, and it's not what America was supposed to be about.
I am willing to sacrifice almost no freedom for the sake of safety. It's because the alternative is far worse.
Have you walked the streets in a Communist country, a real Communist country? I have. I know what this bullshit we're doing now is heading toward, and it's not what America was supposed to be about.
is it a compromise of freedom profile based on race or religion?
i find that most compromises in freedom have to do with some sort of expeditiousness that makes some function "easier," or "cuts to the chase," and while expeditiousness may not itself be a crime against freedom it often is a slippery slope that erodes freedom.
isn't profiling based on race or religion something that would bring us closer to a totalitarian/communist/etc state? i would say that totalitarian/communist/etc regimes are quite expeditious in some respects, like in enforcement of their tyrannical policies.
I watched Atlas Shrugged this weekend.....it made me want to scream with frustration. It was a snapshot into the progressive's ideal future!:help:
I got this letter in the Summer. Agent came to my shop and dropped it off.
He told me to be on the lookout for anyone that was interested in "tactical" training. Uhmm no one here interested in that. :jester:
C4
Damn. Why am I never in a shop when something like this happens? I would have loved to look him dead in the eye and ask if the FBI was going to do training classes as a way to generate revenue. Of course add "if the price is right" I'm in.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-26-11, 10:46
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
Like all the TSA stuff guarantees that planes won't go down? The only thing that has stopped active plots on planes has been the passenger next to the muslim extremist opening up a can of whooop-ass before the meeting with Alah can be arranged.
QuiteShooter:
I don't really care what "the people" choose. "The People" got us into this situation in the first place. Unless or until the vote is restored to its intended franchise as originally designed (and please spare me the white supremacist accusations.) we're going to continue to spiral down the shitter. The Peepul (meaning the non-producers) have discovered they can vote themselves bread and circuses....only we're just about out of bread - and the circus that's going to commence when that happens isn't going to be fun for anyone.
trinydex
is this facism that you're advocating for?
So you equate individual property rights with facism? If I want to keep the fruits of my labor that makes me a Nazi. Dude, that's some twisted logic.
If you say that you don't have any aquantinces that think like QuietShooter, I think you A) need to hang out with more real gun guys and B) get some time away from the Occupy campsite for a dose of reality.
While not a puncuation and spelling Nazi (just a real one because I like my stuff I guess ;) ), it's pretty rude not to follow common customs, especially when you are called out on it. It shows a lack of respect for those taking the time to contribute to the thread and frankly I think shows a lack of self-respect. Unless you are e.e. cummings' descendant, show us that you are coordinated enough to hit two keys at the same time.
If you think the TSA is only involved in airport screenings you need to read a little more. TSA VIPR teams set up random checkpoints when and where they want.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220,0,3213641.story
TSA officials say they have no proof that the roving viper teams have foiled any terrorist plots or thwarted any major threat to public safety. But they argue that the random nature of the searches and the presence of armed officers serve as a deterrent and bolster public confidence.
Another good article. http://www.examiner.com/homeland-security-in-chicago/vipr-tsa-extends-policy-that-preys-on-the-innocent
TSA officials said the statewide "VIPR" operation, as well as all other VIPR operations - have not been in response to any particular threat.
Civil rights advocates believe that the government is steadily increasing the unconstitutional VIPR program in order to test how much the American public is willing to tolerate before the line is drawn.
Moose-Knuckle
12-28-11, 01:35
people are searched by tsa because an airplane is a guaranteed amount of casualties should one go down and even more should one go down on an intended target.
Our 4th amendment rights be damned!
there have been homegrown jihadists that are caucasian. a jihadists can look like anyone. so there shouldn't be any discrimination in who gets searched. i'm sure you're not an advocate of racial profiling.
The PC race card bull shit doesn't work on me and the Israelis have been pretty successful in preventing these cowards from blowing their airliners up because of it.
the department of homeland security, to my knowledge, didn't create any new institutions that didn't previously exist. it just relabeled and reorganized a lot of agencies under the premise that we're doing something about homeland security and also under the banner of sharing information between fewer clearing houses of intel so that another 911 doesn't happen due to information that was available not being acted upon.
The DHS itself was the new institution that was created that didn't previously exist. More power for an ever growing federal government = We The People loose.
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
Why let the people in to begin with? You want your safety you have to profile not strip away the very rights of your citizens.
You cant have a battle of the wits, with an unarmed person.
Some really are like trolling, and need to give it up. If they don't want rights, then get their a$$ over to a 3rd world country, and stop supporting turning the USA into one. It's like some people have "Blinders" on and are fully into the BS they are fed. Drink the BS, and lose your/our rights, then cry foul when it happens to you, and you go WTF just happened.
Some sheople just like to respond with, "Propaganda, it's all propaganda, these things are there for our protection". "Lead me to slaughter PLEASE"!
Think OUTSIDE the box, as well as inside.
It's ALL about "POWER". Power over you and me. Do you want to become a slave?
VooDoo6Actual
12-28-11, 09:01
people are searched by tsa because an airplane is a guaranteed amount of casualties should one go down and even more should one go down on an intended target.
there have been homegrown jihadists that are caucasian. a jihadists can look like anyone. so there shouldn't be any discrimination in who gets searched. i'm sure you're not an advocate of racial profiling.
the department of homeland security, to my knowledge, didn't create any new institutions that didn't previously exist. it just relabeled and reorganized a lot of agencies under the premise that we're doing something about homeland security and also under the banner of sharing information between fewer clearing houses of intel so that another 911 doesn't happen due to information that was available not being acted upon.
but all this is neither here nor there, are we conceding that we can let airplanes go down every once in a while to live freely? or are we not saying that?
While I understand your points, here is the reality.
If our current system is so efficacious what's to prevent anyone or facading as family members from entering the airport ambulating weaponized, have multiple boosters inside luggage at the airport as carry-on luggage from detonating at the airport NOT on a plane ?
Or weaponized vehicle facading as pickup someone at terminal.
Terrorist's adapt to protocol's, systems, TT&P's, tactics etc. Hence asymetrical/guerilla/unconventional tactics etc....
Seems to me a terminal is a far greater efficacious Target rich environment than a single 250+ person plane.....
I look for TSA type checkpoints to be pre-screening at Airports' Entry (ingress/egress) in not too distant future.
Causing big delays, more frustration etc.
Wonder how many people will still want to fly as there entire vehicle gets tossed / delayed etc.....
Why buy the milk when they can have the whole cow....
Bank on it......
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-28-11, 10:50
While I understand your points, here is the reality.
If our current system is so efficacious what's to prevent anyone or facading as family members from entering the airport ambulating weaponized, have multiple boosters inside luggage at the airport as carry-on luggage from detonating at the airport NOT on a plane ?
Or weaponized vehicle facading as pickup someone at terminal.
Terrorist's adapt to protocol's, systems, TT&P's, tactics etc. Hence asymetrical/guerilla/unconventional tactics etc....
Seems to me a terminal is a far greater efficacious Target rich environment than a single 250+ person plane.....
I look for TSA type checkpoints to be pre-screening at Airports' Entry (ingress/egress) in not too distant future.
Causing big delays, more frustration etc.
Wonder how many people will still want to fly as there entire vehicle gets tossed / delayed etc.....
Why buy the milk when they can have the whole cow....
Bank on it......
And you just move the kill zone farther out? And what about our free states where I can have guns and 10lbs of ammo per person to check in luggage, let alone CCW guns if they are kept in the car? I've always wondered what the TSA will do at roving checkpoints considering not just CCW, but that some people carry a lot of gear in their cars.
I was going thru security and I was really late so I had to actually go thru the microwave scanners instead of getting my usually pat down massage. After getting out of the microwaver they have you stand there before you are cleared. Great plan, if someone does have a bomb, what the **** are you supposed to do then?? Ask them to come back to an office? Guess who triggers it right there in the middle of the security area? So we have the person in a machine that could be made to better contain or direct and explosion, but in the name of getting more people thru, we let them out of the machine before we get the all clear. Pure stupidity based on getting a better 'checked' rate rather than actually having a system that could deal with a real bomb.
This is what I worry about with the TSA VIPER stuff is that is just a first step towards more secuiriy sweeps. We have pretty permissive CCW rules here and I can see some nationalization of limits on CCW to make the TSAs job easier.
Interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2079283/Tweeting-word-drill-mean-Twitter-account-read-government-spies.html
VooDoo6Actual
12-28-11, 15:54
And you just move the kill zone farther out? And what about our free states where I can have guns and 10lbs of ammo per person to check in luggage, let alone CCW guns if they are kept in the car? I've always wondered what the TSA will do at roving checkpoints considering not just CCW, but that some people carry a lot of gear in their cars.
I was going thru security and I was really late so I had to actually go thru the microwave scanners instead of getting my usually pat down massage. After getting out of the microwaver they have you stand there before you are cleared. Great plan, if someone does have a bomb, what the **** are you supposed to do then?? Ask them to come back to an office? Guess who triggers it right there in the middle of the security area? So we have the person in a machine that could be made to better contain or direct and explosion, but in the name of getting more people thru, we let them out of the machine before we get the all clear. Pure stupidity based on getting a better 'checked' rate rather than actually having a system that could deal with a real bomb.
This is what I worry about with the TSA VIPER stuff is that is just a first step towards more secuiriy sweeps. We have pretty permissive CCW rules here and I can see some nationalization of limits on CCW to make the TSAs job easier.
Yes exactly regarding KZ.
I use to travel extensively. I'm aware of the different TT&P's at different airports. Even look at the DNA health ramifications (some evidence of shredding/unraveling DNA strands) of TeraHertz scanners
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/.
IF it continues two progress the direction it's going it will be more invasive. Whether it's Train/Bus/Airports/Stadiums etc. Large venues of people will always create a target rich environment & ways to harden the target for better threat mitigation.
I have been consulting for some time & on several/many occasions we have commented to various agencies on the evolving tactics and what will be necessary for threat mitigating etc.
As we can all see the Overton window has been moved more than ever before. More on the way in time most likely unfortunately.....
Interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2079283/Tweeting-word-drill-mean-Twitter-account-read-government-spies.html
An excerpt from the article.
'The initiatives were designed to gather information from 'online forums, blogs, public websites, and message boards,' to store and analyze the information gathered, and then to 'disseminate relevant and appropriate de-identified information to federal, state, local, and foreign governments and private sector partners,' the group said in a court filing.
Like all the TSA stuff guarantees that planes won't go down? The only thing that has stopped active plots on planes has been the passenger next to the muslim extremist opening up a can of whooop-ass before the meeting with Alah can be arranged.
i didn't claim that all the tsa stuff guantees that planes don't go down. i cited a reason for those procedures existing. i fully believe that in whatever system there will always be a method for terrorist attacks to happen, whether that be in the airplane or elsewhere.
So you equate individual property rights with facism? If I want to keep the fruits of my labor that makes me a Nazi. Dude, that's some twisted logic.
not at all and please explain to me where you got that. there was not talk of individual property rights in what i quoted of the poster. he was talking about overruling what "the people" want in the interest of some other agenda. he didn't give a full explanation, but i think that is at least in part leaning towards a system of rule where elitism is the way of law. do correct me if i'm wrong, perhaps you can explain what he was getting at.
If you say that you don't have any aquantinces that think like QuietShooter, I think you A) need to hang out with more real gun guys and B) get some time away from the Occupy campsite for a dose of reality.
what makes you think i'm from the occupy movement?
does this comment mean that people are tiring of my questions? i seriously am just trying to understand. i don't know why there's this hostility. this discussion would fall under the topic of politics and people tend to get defensive quickly. i'd like to avoid that. if there were someone who weren't personally attached to this view of politics i would question the hell out of them to get all the information without any of the offense.
While not a puncuation and spelling Nazi (just a real one because I like my stuff I guess ;) ), it's pretty rude not to follow common customs, especially when you are called out on it. It shows a lack of respect for those taking the time to contribute to the thread and frankly I think shows a lack of self-respect. Unless you are e.e. cummings' descendant, show us that you are coordinated enough to hit two keys at the same time.
sorry. i have my reasons for typing this way, they're personal. if someone wants to ban or discipline me for it, they can do so.
Take a look at these articles relating to the FBI's PATCON (OKC bombing) and foiling their own terrorist plots. The first one is written by the guy who has brought a lot of the F&F information into the light. The other 2 are about the FBI and the "terrorist plots" that they stop from happening.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/11/ssi-exclusive-hiding-mass-murder-behind.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038
http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/29/fbi_terror/singleton/
Our 4th amendment rights be damned!
there was a point in recent american history where our second amendment rights were encroached upon and citizens took it up to the supreme court where the ruling was made in favor of the people.
if tsa procedures are an infringement on our fourth amendment rights and the fruit of that compromise is far outweighed by the encroachment, the people should be looking for a perfect case to take all the way to the supreme court so we can reclaim our rights.
the legislation that the tsa derrives its authority from can be amended or revoked all together and we can go back to traveling like we did previous to 911, but with a new citizenry that is more vigilent. what's wrong with that picture? wouldn't that be a solution that is within the capabilities of the united states judicial system? doesn't such resilience and capability within the judicial system deserve some credit?
sure it could be viewed that the encroachment on our rights should never have happened to begin with. that sucks, it does, but we have a way to reclaim them. if we so choose we should work actively towards such.
The PC race card bull shit doesn't work on me and the Israelis have been pretty successful in preventing these cowards from blowing their airliners up because of it.
the israelis have a very militaristic state. one that i don't believe anyone here would be comfortable with. is this not correct? i have to speculate that the israelis have worse things than the tsa screenings, no system is 100% accurate so what happens to those that are wrongfully accused? is that what you are advocating for?
The DHS itself was the new institution that was created that didn't previously exist. More power for an ever growing federal government = We The People loose.
which new agency was created within dhs? border patrol already exsisted, customs and border protection already existed, ins turned into uccis, customs turned into homeland security investigations, detention and removal turned into immigration enforcement, this is all the same stuff just relabeled. there was a new secretary created to be the face of all this. i suppose that is a representation of government growing.
Why let the people in to begin with? You want your safety you have to profile not strip away the very rights of your citizens.
well as i mentioned before, there are jihadists that are home grown and look like caucasians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homegrown_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleen_LaRose
she is one example i can remember.
my point is that even profiling won't work that well. why compromise freedom of those who will undoubtedly be wrongfully accused or profiled? so once again i would ask, as a citizenry of a country that is free (or is aspiring to become more free) are we willing to say that terrorism is an unfortunate byproduct of vulnerability in a free nation and we have to take the good with the bad and not let the bad ruin what good we have?
While I understand your points, here is the reality.
If our current system is so efficacious what's to prevent anyone or facading as family members from entering the airport ambulating weaponized, have multiple boosters inside luggage at the airport as carry-on luggage from detonating at the airport NOT on a plane ?
whatever systems are in place, a new method of attack will be devised. beceause the nature of protection is reactive, the damage will already be done before we concede to yet more procedures designed to protect us.
some will say they will concede to this. some will say that's utter bullshit that we would even consider. like i said earlier, i am looking for a barometer of the times. i want to know if most of us here are no longer willing to concede, or if we have really struck a healthy balance between safety and security.
Or weaponized vehicle facading as pickup someone at terminal.
Terrorist's adapt to protocol's, systems, TT&P's, tactics etc. Hence asymetrical/guerilla/unconventional tactics etc....
Seems to me a terminal is a far greater efficacious Target rich environment than a single 250+ person plane.....
the nature of terrorist attacks has always been asymmetry. you are right, it will only get more advanced in asymmetry. this could be interpretted as conventional asymmetric warfare, as oxymoronic as that sounds. i see the next evolution as the mumbai style of attacks. very low capital, very low manpower, devastating results in target rich environments. leveraging emergency response against itself again, just like in the 911 attacks.
I look for TSA type checkpoints to be pre-screening at Airports' Entry (ingress/egress) in not too distant future.
Causing big delays, more frustration etc.
Wonder how many people will still want to fly as there entire vehicle gets tossed / delayed etc.....
Why buy the milk when they can have the whole cow....
Bank on it......
at some point the people tell the government to stop. when and how will we do it?
SeriousStudent
12-28-11, 18:52
While I understand your points, here is the reality.
If our current system is so efficacious what's to prevent anyone or facading as family members from entering the airport ambulating weaponized, have multiple boosters inside luggage at the airport as carry-on luggage from detonating at the airport NOT on a plane ?
Or weaponized vehicle facading as pickup someone at terminal.
Terrorist's adapt to protocol's, systems, TT&P's, tactics etc. Hence asymetrical/guerilla/unconventional tactics etc....
Seems to me a terminal is a far greater efficacious Target rich environment than a single 250+ person plane.....
I look for TSA type checkpoints to be pre-screening at Airports' Entry (ingress/egress) in not too distant future.
Causing big delays, more frustration etc.
Wonder how many people will still want to fly as there entire vehicle gets tossed / delayed etc.....
Why buy the milk when they can have the whole cow....
Bank on it......
The Chechens agree with you.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-24/world/russia.airport.explosion_1_suicide-bomber-moscow-police-moscow-during-rush-hour?_s=PM:WORLD
Interesting article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2079283/Tweeting-word-drill-mean-Twitter-account-read-government-spies.html
this reminds me of those burglars that log onto facebook and then get caught for doing so.
http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/29/fbi_terror/singleton/
this sounds like really fishy reporting. on the one hand i have to ask myself... if i were told or funded to bomb some target within the united states... would i do it? could i be "convinced?"
the first thing i would do is find some alphabet soup agency to report that kind of crap to. the mere fact that these people went through with it screams guilty to me.
VooDoo6Actual
12-28-11, 21:34
whatever systems are in place, a new method of attack will be devised. beceause the nature of protection is reactive, the damage will already be done before we concede to yet more procedures designed to protect us.
some will say they will concede to this. some will say that's utter bullshit that we would even consider. like i said earlier, i am looking for a barometer of the times. i want to know if most of us here are no longer willing to concede, or if we have really struck a healthy balance between safety and security.
the nature of terrorist attacks has always been asymmetry. you are right, it will only get more advanced in asymmetry. this could be interpretted as conventional asymmetric warfare, as oxymoronic as that sounds. i see the next evolution as the mumbai style of attacks. very low capital, very low manpower, devastating results in target rich environments. leveraging emergency response against itself again, just like in the 911 attacks.
at some point the people tell the government to stop. when and how will we do it?
You are correct that a new method will be devised. Tactics evolve as the mission changes, & the mission dictates the gear... Evolution/change is the nature of things in the universe.
Traditionally & generally Law Enforcement work has been reactive to or after the incident. Perhaps that is your Protective reference. That has always been the weak link & frustration for Law Enforcement. However, that paradigm & footprint/landscape is changing currently & I'll elaborate further below.
However, Protection work however is not reactive. Indulge me to clarify.
Protective mantra's & Protective doctrines for some time have been Pro-Active. There generally is a whole Threat Assessment/Analysis Matrix.
In the circles I run & operate in, we do Advances, Site Surveys, Route Analysis, Threat Detection, Threat Mitigation by avoidance and Pro Active "other" measures (OPSEC) etc. Prepare, Prevent Protect (Deter, Detect React etc.). Notice 2 full procedures before we ever get to the "Protect" phase.
However, current LE/Mil tactics are evolving as we speak. We are engaged in a technocracy of evolutionary changes currently. A geo-political agenda coupled w/ a "SKYNET of Drones" capable of Pro-Active & real time surveillance/monitoring/reconnoitering our entire planet. This is something unprecedented that has never been done before. So in this regard LE is now evolving w/ Pro-Active tactics. The capability and potential is stellar. However, with that comes loss of privacy, personal rights & abuses of power potentially etc.
As an example, Currently the GOA has constant UAV's/Drones monitoring the Pirates movements now via Global Hawk/Sentinel et alia. By contrast, when I deployed on Anti-Piracy missions for D0D in 09' & 10' we were real time and had no Pro-Active ability to monitor their positions or movements. Other than other ships/planes radar pinging or visually queuing their locations etc.
The other issue is False Flag Ops to further political agendas for politicians serving their masters etc. That's a whole other animal & topic.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-28-11, 22:30
not at all and please explain to me where you got that. there was not talk of individual property rights in what i quoted of the poster. he was talking about overruling what "the people" want in the interest of some other agenda. he didn't give a full explanation, but i think that is at least in part leaning towards a system of rule where elitism is the way of law. do correct me if i'm wrong, perhaps you can explain what he was getting at.
.
The point the other poster was taking was that the 51% can vote themselves just about anything they want now that the Commerce Clause has become the govt Santa Claus. You seemed to be saying when I disagree that people do not have a claim on my property makes me a right wing Nazi, that is point of contention.
what makes you think i'm from the occupy movement?
does this comment mean that people are tiring of my questions? i seriously am just trying to understand. i don't know why there's this hostility. this discussion would fall under the topic of politics and people tend to get defensive quickly. i'd like to avoid that. if there were someone who weren't personally attached to this view of politics i would question the hell out of them to get all the information without any of the offense.
.
Some of your points and your lack of puncuation made it seem that you could be a troll.
sorry. i have my reasons for typing this way, they're personal. if someone wants to ban or discipline me for it, they can do so.
Come'on dude, shut the porn off in the other window. I've heard of multitasking, but that is sick ;)
I do think you are dead on with the assymetrical comments. Everything is getting assymetrical from warfare to business. There seem to be very few peer-to-peer engagements. I think this is going to be a halmark of the 21st century. Thru commiditization, common sourcing and fast capability copying, going toe-to-toe with a near-peer is suicide.
However, with that comes loss of privacy, personal rights & abuses of power potentially etc.
Do ya think that is what "We The People" are getting bent about? That is what the thinking of the "Raping Leaders" of this country are doing, so they can gain control of what will verrrry soon be the "US Peasants". I think this is going to spawn a "Revolution" of some sort, AND the leaders of this once great nation know this, and are willing to use force against it's people/peasants. Why do you really think these things are being set into motion? They know they can only push so far, and "Bang". The leaders know they are getting close to a "Bang". I wonder what it is that will turn people of this nation that they rub elbows with, to turn against their neighbors/friends. Is it "Power" for them too? Do they not realize they are just pawns in the scheme, and can/will be disposed of too when the time comes?
VooDoo6Actual
12-28-11, 23:19
Do ya think that is what "We The People" are getting bent about? That is what the thinking of the "Raping Leaders" of this country are doing, so they can gain control of what will verrrry soon be the "US Peasants". I think this is going to spawn a "Revolution" of some sort, AND the leaders of this once great nation know this, and are willing to use force against it's people/peasants. Why do you really think these things are being set into motion? They know they can only push so far, and "Bang". The leaders know they are getting close to a "Bang". I wonder what it is that will turn people of this nation that they rub elbows with, to turn against their neighbors/friends. Is it "Power" for them too? Do they not realize they are just pawns in the scheme, and can/will be disposed of too when the time comes?
Yes, I do.
Gramps I feel ya Lima Charlie.....
Moose-Knuckle
12-29-11, 01:45
there was a point in recent american history where our second amendment rights were encroached upon and citizens took it up to the supreme court where the ruling was made in favor of the people.
if tsa procedures are an infringement on our fourth amendment rights and the fruit of that compromise is far outweighed by the encroachment, the people should be looking for a perfect case to take all the way to the supreme court so we can reclaim our rights.
the legislation that the tsa derrives its authority from can be amended or revoked all together and we can go back to traveling like we did previous to 911, but with a new citizenry that is more vigilent. what's wrong with that picture? wouldn't that be a solution that is within the capabilities of the united states judicial system? doesn't such resilience and capability within the judicial system deserve some credit?
sure it could be viewed that the encroachment on our rights should never have happened to begin with. that sucks, it does, but we have a way to reclaim them. if we so choose we should work actively towards such. ?
Really, how about the NFA of 1934? Or the GCA of 1968? Or the FOPA of 1986? Or the AWCA of 1989? We have lost such a foot hold on the 2nd at this juncture there in no regaining any ground.
the israelis have a very militaristic state. one that i don't believe anyone here would be comfortable with. is this not correct? i have to speculate that the israelis have worse things than the tsa screenings, no system is 100% accurate so what happens to those that are wrongfully accused? is that what you are advocating for??
And we don't? That is the purpose of threads like this. Concern of the ever growing American Police State.
As for wrongfully accused, maybe we shouldn't wrongfully search and seize people? Just ask the mother of 16 year old Ashton Lundeby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9zGhYSIAP8).
which new agency was created within dhs? border patrol already exsisted, customs and border protection already existed, ins turned into uccis, customs turned into homeland security investigations, detention and removal turned into immigration enforcement, this is all the same stuff just relabeled. there was a new secretary created to be the face of all this. i suppose that is a representation of government growing. ?
Did DHS (not the "re-labeled" alphabets under it's umbella) exist prior to 9/11? And yes, this as they say is a clue to growing governmental powers.
well as i mentioned before, there are jihadists that are home grown and look like caucasians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homegrown_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleen_LaRose
she is one example i can remember.
my point is that even profiling won't work that well. why compromise freedom of those who will undoubtedly be wrongfully accused or profiled? so once again i would ask, as a citizenry of a country that is free (or is aspiring to become more free) are we willing to say that terrorism is an unfortunate byproduct of vulnerability in a free nation and we have to take the good with the bad and not let the bad ruin what good we have?
When did I ever mention a particular "race". If it's Jihadists that keep you up at night then it's obvious who you profile is it not? The catch phrase here is religious extremists.
Traditionally & generally Law Enforcement work has been reactive to or after the incident. Perhaps that is your Protective reference. That has always been the weak link & frustration for Law Enforcement. However, that paradigm & footprint/landscape is changing currently & I'll elaborate further below.
However, Protection work however is not reactive. Indulge me to clarify.
Protective mantra's & Protective doctrines for some time have been Pro-Active. There generally is a whole Threat Assessment/Analysis Matrix.
In the circles I run & operate in, we do Advances, Site Surveys, Route Analysis, Threat Detection, Threat Mitigation by avoidance and Pro Active "other" measures (OPSEC) etc. Prepare, Prevent Protect (Deter, Detect React etc.). Notice 2 full procedures before we ever get to the "Protect" phase.
i guess what i'm referring to is the fact that there will always evolve a new way to attack. there is never going to be a way to predict the exact next type of attack, because the nature of an evolving system. given enough time there will always be a weakness exposed. many times those weaknesses in systems manifest themselves in the same traditional ways (people, complacence, etc.).
also failures are never the result of just a single point of failure, it's always the combination of failures that brings about big catastrophes. whether it's 9/11 or a space shuttle crashing, or a nuclear power plant getting flooded, there's always multiple failures that bring about a major disaster. my point is even if there are measures in place to mitigate the risk, those measures can and do fail. only after such failures can you evaluate more measures and apply lessons learned.
the question remains, where or what is the cost benefit analysis on lessons learned and new measures put in place when it comes to the discussion of security and freedom?
Really, how about the NFA of 1934? Or the GCA of 1968? Or the FOPA of 1986? Or the AWCA of 1989? We have lost such a foot hold on the 2nd at this juncture there in no regaining any ground.
why wouldn't we use the judicial system to deregulate those acts? why not attack the batf? pull all its authorities by challenging and canceling the documents that it derives its authority from.
And we don't? That is the purpose of threads like this. Concern of the ever growing American Police State.
As for wrongfully accused, maybe we shouldn't wrongfully search and seize people? Just ask the mother of 16 year old Ashton Lundeby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9zGhYSIAP8).
i'm not sure of what solution you're proposing. you're saying let's not wrongfully search people but the solution your proposed includes wrongfully searching at least some people. help me out here.
Did DHS (not the "re-labeled" alphabets under it's umbella) exist prior to 9/11? And yes, this as they say is a clue to growing governmental powers.
i don't understand how it's growing is it's all the same agencies, just under an umbrella. the authorities haven't expanded. the patriot act isn't specific to dhs, but i would fully agree there that it created some major expansions of authority. i just don't see dhs as a hallmark of government growth. there are other markers of how the government is growing.
When did I ever mention a particular "race". If it's Jihadists that keep you up at night then it's obvious who you profile is it not? The catch phrase here is religious extremists.
how do you profile a religious extremist? especially if you do not mention a particular race. is there a way to do that?
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