View Full Version : MAGPUL's art of the Precision rifle
Dirk Williams
12-22-11, 12:05
Arrived yesterday, good stuff, especially if your shooting a Horus reticle, and using their PDA.
Anybody seen this and have an oppinion.
Dirk
Check it out here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93910
Dirk Williams
12-22-11, 18:43
After watching all five of the dvd's, I think it's good stuff and helpful. My rifles have PMII's with 4F4 reticles. The mil math kills me Im determined to learn what these guys are teaching.
For me this is a great oppertunity to learn new stuff, without expending 1000's of dollars in travel and training expenses elsewhere.
I also use Bullet Flight mil. The Trag or Horus system is simply over welming for simple mind.
MAGPUL Thank you. I train alone pretty much all the time and this is a great tool to learn from.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Dirk Williams
After watching all five of the dvd's, I think it's good stuff and helpful. My rifles have PMII's with 4F4 reticles. The mil math kills me Im determined to learn what these guys are teaching.
For me this is a great oppertunity to learn new stuff, without expending 1000's of dollars in travel and training expenses elsewhere.
I also use Bullet Flight mil. The Trag or Horus system is simply over welming for simple mind.
MAGPUL Thank you. I train alone pretty much all the time and this is a great tool to learn from.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Dirk Williams
having had used 4 or 5 of the top ballistic handhelds, i can say that Bullet Flight sucks... features and usability....
look at "shooter ballistics" and "Ballistic FTE" both ar 100% more user friendly and have more usability..
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ballistic-field-tactical-edition/id303254296?mt=8
http://shooter.kndy.net/
Dirk Williams
12-26-11, 13:36
What would the top 4 or 5 be?. My scope's are PMII P4F's not a P4P. Educate me, why the other's over my Bullet Flight.
I'd admit that it's a couple years old now but seems to drop bullets right where I need them when I shoot which isn't much since I retired.
Thank you in advance.
Dirk Williams
Dirk Williams
12-26-11, 13:47
I had seen that link , it's typical psyco babble from those who have not reviewed the new training vid. I watched it twice over the holiday I personally think there's alot to learn.
I'd admit it's different then all the schools Ive been to. I think that is why I like it, a different spin on what I love doing, which means another oppertunity to further my learning experience.
Shooting a 308 to a mile is impressive. "Them not Me"
If I had an observation I wish more scope data was incorporated Im not big on Horus, as every school ive attended in the past a fellow students Horus took a dump. perhaps the company has since rectified those break issues.
In fairness I would share that while at a school in Alameda County Ca one of the Horus scopes went down, Jeff Reed called Horus after class and the problem was fixed that evening by Horus who got the parts over to ACSO. That was impressive.
Thanks again for hooking me up with that loop
Dirk
im not knocking the accuracy, it is just as accurate as the others i posted... its the features and usability that sucks for the $$$..
both shooter for 10$ and FTE for 20$ has G7 data built in.. KAC "30$" only has G7 for .mil loads
the "wiz wheel" in KAC is 25y/m jumps... the others can be set to anything you like, IE:5y/m jumps..
the other 2 i can jump from range finding back to the HUD and right back.. KAC, cant do that..
"shooter" can input 5 down range actual dopes to tweek perfection out of the drop charts
http://shooter.kndy.net/img/ios/IMG_0374.PNG
KAC can calculate true BC in the same way, but only for 1 data point. FTE is the same
EDIT:.. this is a issue mostly past 600y shooting...
something i would read is this..
Sources of Ballistic Program Inaccuracies
by Linden B. (Lindy) Sisk
http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/Programs/
thats just a few things..
Dirk Williams
12-26-11, 14:14
Interesting, I had plugged in G7 on my loads and loaded ammo from Brians book. I just checked my 338 lm add on, and it had in fact reverted back to G1.
I'll add the others , are they available in the apple store?.
Thanks for the education.
Dirk
ive been running KAC, FTE and 2 other for 2 years now, just started with shooter.. shooter will only run on IOs5, so wont run on the older ipods, just gen 3/4 ipods and iphones but out of the 3, get shooter.. + its just 10$, so cant go wrong...
ive been running KAC, FTE and 2 other for 2 years now, just started with shooter.. shooter will only run on IOs5, so wont run on the older ipods, just gen 3/4 ipods and iphones but out of the 3, get shooter.. + its just 10$, so cant go wrong...
Is it accurate? Have you tried it at long distances? JMB is pretty good if you give it good data. How does it compare with FTE?
Thanks
if you put 100% the same data in each all will give you about the same data out..but where the other shine is that FTE will auto convert G1's to G7s, and shooter had LITZ G7's built in and with the FTE and shooter HUD's configurable down to 1 y/m if you like, the potential for accuracy is much greater, and the "fine tune" feature
good wright up here..
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/shooter-ballistics-app-for-adroid-os/
quote:
Bryan Litz used the Shooter App on a recent trip to Wyoming: “I shot a Sako TRG42 in .338 Lapua Mag to 2400 yards with Berger’s new 300gr hybrids. The dope from the Shooter App was spot on up to 103 MOA of drop using the G7 BC of .419 for that bullet! At 2400 yards, even at 6,000 ft+ elevation, the bullet is subsonic but remained stable and tracked perfectly with the predicted trajectory from Shooter.
thisis the most expencive software i have... simaler to the atrag in the magpul vid
Field.Firing.Solutions
http://www.precisionworkbench.com/index.htm
200$ + PDA... ill sell it 1/2 off if u want it :)
I had seen that link , it's typical psyco babble from those who have not reviewed the new training vid. I watched it twice over the holiday I personally think there's alot to learn.
I'd admit it's different then all the schools Ive been to. I think that is why I like it, a different spin on what I love doing, which means another oppertunity to further my learning experience.
Shooting a 308 to a mile is impressive. "Them not Me"
If I had an observation I wish more scope data was incorporated Im not big on Horus, as every school ive attended in the past a fellow students Horus took a dump. perhaps the company has since rectified those break issues.
In fairness I would share that while at a school in Alameda County Ca one of the Horus scopes went down, Jeff Reed called Horus after class and the problem was fixed that evening by Horus who got the parts over to ACSO. That was impressive.
Thanks again for hooking me up with that loop
Dirk
They are based across the bay in either San Bruno or South San Francisco. I know one of the guys that works there. He just picked up a very nice OBR. I wish I knew something about precision shooting, but their stuff looks pretty cool.
if you put 100% the same data in each all will give you about the same data out..but where the other shine is that FTE will auto convert G1's to G7s, and shooter had LITZ G7's built in and with the FTE and shooter HUD's configurable down to 1 y/m if you like, the potential for accuracy is much greater, and the "fine tune" feature
good wright up here..
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/shooter-ballistics-app-for-adroid-os/
quote:
Bryan Litz used the Shooter App on a recent trip to Wyoming: “I shot a Sako TRG42 in .338 Lapua Mag to 2400 yards with Berger’s new 300gr hybrids. The dope from the Shooter App was spot on up to 103 MOA of drop using the G7 BC of .419 for that bullet! At 2400 yards, even at 6,000 ft+ elevation, the bullet is subsonic but remained stable and tracked perfectly with the predicted trajectory from Shooter.
thisis the most expencive software i have... simaler to the atrag in the magpul vid
Field.Firing.Solutions
http://www.precisionworkbench.com/index.htm
200$ + PDA... ill sell it 1/2 off if u want it :)
Thanks for the offer, I have an apple product and use the FTE, but I am also a ballistic calc junkie ;)
SecretSquirrel
12-29-11, 12:32
Overall I think the videos are very educational for people just getting into the sport of long range shooting. I think that as previously stated the videos are biased toward Horus reticle and their software. I use Ballistic FTE in the field and it works fantastic. Apparently no one uses a MOA scope because they aren't even mentioned. IMHO i find they are much easier to use than Mil-Dot scopes, the math is just easier. Blast me if you want but it's my opinion and FWIW I own several Mil/Mil scopes. One thing I really liked is that Travis and Chris are very humble. They didn't act like they had all the answers and were know-it-alls. I liked that there where in fact times that they stopped and asked questions. It shows me that these guys are class acts. I hope Magpul continues to pump these training videos out because for someone that cant get to the range they are a great tool. With that said there is no better training than actual trigger time.
Nice job fellas!
Dirk Williams
12-29-11, 14:13
Secret, I agree with your observation. Im also a MOA guy, The whole shooting team was very humble, the one fella was clearly a shooter from some branch of the service .
Dirk
Im actually watching it right now. While Hodnett has sold me on the utility of the Horus reticle, he is obviously a frikkin' genius with calculations and his self-prescribed "cowboy" personna isnt fooling me one bit! He is literally light years ahead of anywhere I could ever hope to be with the numbers. Honestly with the material Hodnett was covering I was really overwhelmed. Im gonna have to watch his segements several more times before I can grasp what he is talking about.
Disc 3 with Magpul's Caylen Wojcik was really helpful for me to understand the basics of Mils, MOA,and ranging with reticles, etc. I would highly recommend folks watch Disc 3 before any of theother discs if you are completely new to the precision game like I am. Wojcik seems like a very competent dude who gets his points across extremely well.
I just got through watching the series myself. While educational, I felt a bit overwhelmed with the "milling". Honestly I just need to take the time to read up on it and learn.
SeriousStudent
12-31-11, 09:20
I just got through watching the series myself. While educational, I felt a bit overwhelmed with the "milling". Honestly I just need to take the time to read up on it and learn.
Something I found to be very beneficial was to go back to my roots as a squad leader. I borrowed a friend's laser ranger finder, and lased about a dozen objects from one of my second story windows. I made up a range card, and recorded those precise distances for those objects. I'd watch the DVD on a laptop, pause it, then test my Vortex mil/mil scope.
That was very helpful, and I picked it up much faster. I also created a cheatsheet from the formula's section on the last DVD.
Just walk through it a half-dozen times like that. Get your paper, pencil, calculator and cheatsheet. Record your targets on a range card or sketch map. And now you have stuff for that new data book, too! Woot!
I would recommend having some light gauze curtains on the window, and not hanging the rifle out like some Hollywood goofball. Best not to get the local SWAT team involved. ;)
Dirk Williams
12-31-11, 09:55
Objective feed back is what I was seeking. Thanks for your frank reviews, it helps. The instructor is very very good, doing the math in his head like that amazes me. Im simply not capable of doing the math in my head, I still have to range it, load the dope into my Itouch then shoot it.
I purchased Brian Lutz's book right after it came out which is referenced in this magpul series, by far the single best book on long range shooting Ive seen, to recently be published.
I also would love a pair of the range finders the boys were using, impressive accurate ranging is im my humble oppinion top of the list for data going in.
I have a set of Leica Geovio 10x42 HD's that I love as they are duel purpouse as eyes and a very good range finder out to say 1400 y.
Not nearly as good as the range finders they were using.
Nick, you mentioned that your impressed with the Horus reticles. Im wrestling with that, I have to be able to justify the cost of changing out 3, 5x25x56 PMII S&B reticles. Realistically I can't afford the switch, Im also very happy with the scopes and reticles I already have.
Long range shooting is beig pushed to the cutting edge like many other sports, Im simply amazed at the distances these guys are shooting and hitting anymore.
Happy New Years to all
Dirk Williams
I got a chance to shoot the Horus reticle and I found it to be exactly how Todd described it in the video initially, a little busy but very beneficial once you get use to it . I shoot a S&B PMII P4F (mil MIL) reticle so I'm use to a clean scope view, so shooting the Horus takes a little getting use.
Now with that said, I think it's incredibly useful when shooting long ranges and having a specific reference spot on the reticle to hold for not only elevation but wind as well.
Inherently people don't like change. So for many, if we're use to a certain reticle it will probably take some time to convince ourselves to change or get use to the change someone made for us. It's just human nature. But IMO, more times than not these changes are later appreciated and we admit to ourselves it was a good move. It just takes a little time.
One who has had to shoot long ranges with a typical reticle and knowing what it's like to hold in dead space, for lack of a better word, can see and understand the benefits of that reticle.
I don't think I would go as far as calling Todd a genius, I just think he's a SME that has a hands down complete understanding of the subject and has been doing his job for a very long time and is extremely good at it.
There's nothing magical about mils, it's actually an incredibly simple and effective system to use. IMO its also the reason MOA is not mentioned in the DVD, also because it's what the military uses at that level. Everything Accuracy 1st is teaching is for military operational guys, not for the hunter or the civilian enthusiast. What they teach can be used for the latter 2 groups mentioned, but it's not their focus. Unlike MIL/MOA (reticle/knob) systems there's no math involved. Your reticle is your tape measure and what you see is what you get. Meaning, whatever correction you see you need to make in the reticle is the correction you dial, or hold, whatever you're doing. It's all about simple executionN, little to no math and rapid engagements.
I found the DVD's to be great. I found most of the information to be valid, interesting and to be of great use to any new shooter looking to get into precision shooting.
Honestly with the material Hodnett was covering I was really overwhelmed. Im gonna have to watch his segements several more times before I can grasp what he is talking about.
Yeah. Hodnett is impressive. I saw a few segments of the video the other day. NOT what I was expecting at all for a MagPul video.
As someone who is new to long range, and without the benefit of having had any hands on instruction...I'm very impressed.
Within the 1st DVD The amount of things I noted I have been doing wrong/guessing at was both shameful and illuminating. For the veteran shooters, I can see how much of this could be fundamentals. For me however, I need to develop those same fundamentals, and in that respect...this series is well worth the investment!
There's some good material. I just wish they didn't push that reticule/software so much, felt like an infomercial.
There's some good material. I just wish they didn't push that reticule/software so much, felt like an infomercial.
Except from the truing part, everything could be done with a non-horus reticle and software. Premier gen2xr, Vortex EBR2, and any x-mas tree reticle will work for on the fly wind dope. As for the PDA; Shooter, Ballistics FTE and Bulletflight all have the G7 data from Brian Litz and can calculate the true BC from the drop. Same thing for spin drift and coriolis effect.
Except from the truing part, everything could be done with a non-horus reticle and software. Premier gen2xr, Vortex EBR2, and any x-mas tree reticle will work for on the fly wind dope. As for the PDA; Shooter, Ballistics FTE and Bulletflight all have the G7 data from Brian Litz and can calculate the true BC from the drop. Same thing for spin drift and coriolis effect.
I know, I also know that it comes down to making money and companies know who to attach their names too, to do so. I just can see people running out and spending a bunch of money to get a set up they see in this dvd which is not needed.
But all in all entertaining while being educational.
I know, I also know that it comes down to making money and companies know who to attach their names too, to do so. I just can see people running out and spending a bunch of money to get a set up they see in this dvd which is not needed.
But all in all entertaining while being educational.
Yes, that I agree 100%. You don't need to spent for a 3000$ scope with a 500$ extra for the horus reticle and another 1000$ for the PDA. You could start with any quality .mil turret mil reticle scope (hint SWFA SS) and a 10$-20$ ballistic program on your ios/android/windows mobile phone/pda and go shoot long range as long as you have the fundamentals. I wish they would have proposed alternatives instead of pitching the Horus system.
Interesting that Hodnett likes the 1 piece detachable scope mounts on a bolt gun.
Except from the truing part, everything could be done with a non-horus reticle and software. Premier gen2xr, Vortex EBR2, and any x-mas tree reticle will work for on the fly wind dope. As for the PDA; Shooter, Ballistics FTE and Bulletflight all have the G7 data from Brian Litz and can calculate the true BC from the drop. Same thing for spin drift and coriolis effect.
you can do "truing" with all those apps... u just need to know how... its not hard..
Interesting that Hodnett likes the 1 piece detachable scope mounts on a bolt gun.
if you want to buy 1 high end scope over a few cheep or mid range and swap between guns, it can be handy..
if you want to buy 1 high end scope over a few cheep or mid range and swap between guns, it can be handy..
Yeah.. I understood his coment on that. Interesting was his repeatable zero test.
Yeah.. I understood his coment on that. Interesting was his repeatable zero test.
to be honest.. i have heard mixed reviews on the repeatable testing... some people say hey are good to under 1 moa shift.. others, not so much.. there was a big wright up on snipers hide on it..
to be honest.. i have heard mixed reviews on the repeatable testing... some people say hey are good to under 1 moa shift.. others, not so much.. there was a big wright up on snipers hide on it..
I would take info from the Hide on this particular subject with a grain of salt. ;) The Hide is a great resource for info but in this case the conflict of interest seems to be driving a lot of negative comments... Always consider your source before forming an opinion. Better yet, check it out on your own and go from there...
Fortunately I don't have enough bolt guns or money for it to be an issue! :D
We have 1,000 yards of private range in West Central Florida that now needs a community of supporting users. Please check out my website. Lots of new images and information to come.http://floridashootingresort.com Please sign up on our mailing list if you want to stay informed.
We have 1,000 yards of private range in West Central Florida that now needs a community of supporting users. Please check out my website. Lots of new images and information to come.http://floridashootingresort.com Please sign up on our mailing list if you want to stay informed.
if u havent already, go post that on sniperhide....
Thx for that suggestion @Ring. On your recommendation I've joined that site. Waiting on word back from Admin as to how and what I can post without violating the rules. Fine line I've found between being a member that operates a business and being a business that operates on the boards strictly for marketing purposes. Better to get permission in this case than forgiveness. Hard to get over a bad first impression. :suicide2:
We have 1,000 yards of private range in West Central Florida that now needs a community of supporting users. Please check out my website. Lots of new images and information to come.http://floridashootingresort.com Please sign up on our mailing list if you want to stay informed.
Wow!! We now have two 1K ranges in Manatee County.:D
We do things a lot differently than over at MGAC. Access is open only to those enrolled in formal instructional classes conducted by our partners such as Grey Group Training, Costa Ludus, Haley Strategic and OpSpec Training.
We have 1,000 yards of private range in West Central Florida that now needs a community of supporting users. Please check out my website. Lots of new images and information to come.http://floridashootingresort.com Please sign up on our mailing list if you want to stay informed.
That place looks outstanding! Looking forward to taking a class down there. Congrats on an outstanding job on the project.
We have 1,000 yards of private range in West Central Florida that now needs a community of supporting users. Please check out my website. Lots of new images and information to come.http://floridashootingresort.com Please sign up on our mailing list if you want to stay informed.
Holy hell, that looks nice.
My wife's family is in Clearwater so this may be a good reason to visit the in-laws..... :p
Thanks for the compliment. There are some very big things underway and we are working hard to make this *the* place to go for a firearms training/vacation destination. We have a cottage at the beach that is also available for rent to keep the family happy for a couple days while you play at Rocky Creek too.
Holy hell, that looks nice.
My wife's family is in Clearwater so this may be a good reason to visit the in-laws..... :p
Thanks for the compliment. There are some very big things underway and we are working hard to make this *the* place to go for a firearms training/vacation destination. We have a cottage at the beach that is also available for rent to keep the family happy for a couple days while you play at Rocky Creek too.
I already sent her over to look at the pictures you have of the lodge. She is already on board... We may have to drop the kids of at the Grandparents and have a date on the range.:D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.