View Full Version : New AR Dilemma
First, here is my current situation:
A couple of months ago, my wife (who does all the family budgeting) generously approved the purchase of 2 new AR-15s. In the past we have always gone to at least one or two pistol training courses each year – but last year I bought a basic, no-frills RRA and have really liked it so we are planning on going to a carbine class in the first half of 2008 with these new rifles.
Anyway, it didn’t take too long after the approval to go out and get a couple of lowers, but I’m now a bit overwhelmed on what to do about the uppers. The purpose for both of these is : Range shooting, Training classes, and possibly (though hopefully never) SHTF. I don't plan to use them for home defense.
I’ve currently decided to go with either an LMT carbine or a Sabre Defence mid-length (although other suggestions are welcome). Either way, I would probably get the DD Lite rails.
Here are my main questions and concerns:
1) My wife is in good physical shape, but she’s only 5’9” and I want to get something that is as light as possible so there isn’t a problem with these being too heavy when we go to a carbine class. Also, keep in mind that every time I buy a new firearm I try to get something that she’ll be happy shooting too – that way she’ll keep approving new purchases ;).
2) I’m looking at the mid-length mostly because it seems like it could reduce the recoil and make shooting these more fun for her (although I've never shot one to compare) – but is the additional weight going to be a problem? Would I be better off just sticking with the carbine?
3) This probably sounds dumb, but I really like the idea of keeping simple iron sights on most of my guns because they just feel more reliable and less gadgetty. Having said that, I recently tried out a red-dot sight on a friend’s rifle and really liked it (which is why I’m going with the rails). Would it be a bad idea to put EOTechs on these? If I do, how reliable are the folding sights? I'm thinking about getting a folding rear and fixed front sight and then adding an EOTech later.
4) Finally, I’m a bit surprised at how much these are going to cost. I’m basically looking at ~$1000 for each upper, so any ideas to reduce this cost would really be appreciated :). (I guess I just didn’t expect them to be that much more than the lowers.)
Sorry that this post has run a bit long. I love to shoot, but I’m not an expert at all – so please feel free to offer as much advice as you can:). This is just a huge investment for me so I really want to make sure I do it right.
Thanks.
Failure2Stop
12-07-07, 13:52
Welcome to the site, hope I can help-
First- I really prefer a fixed rear back-up sight with lower 1/3 cowitness with an Aimpoint. Even if you wait and get the Aimpoint later the irons will still be very functional.
Uppers aren't really all that bad, here are a few examples in your given price-range that I either own, am purchasing, or would use personally.
1. Noveske N4 Light Basic (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=873)- complete with a BUIS (thought it isn't my favorite BUIS, it's still workable).
2. Colt 6520 (http://www.fidelisfirearms.com/images/colt/0712304/0712304_1.jpg) from Fidelis Firearms (http://www.fidelisfirearms.com/colt.htm) for $695, 6721 for $795, 6920 for $850.
3. LMT (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/lmt%2016%20urg.htm) from Bravo Company- $610 with charging handle and BCG, handguards for free.
My personal favorite BUIS - LaRue Fixed (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BUIS)- $89. Worth it.
You can easily install the DD Omega rails (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=7.0OR-DD) onto the LMT with the LaRue BUIS for ~$940.
Don't forget a good light and magazines for them.
Thanks! That is all useful information.
So, it sounds like you are dismissing the mid-length gas system and think I should just stick with the carbine-length - is that right?
I think I would feel more comfortable with fixed sights anyway, so I'll probably go with the ones you are recommending. That also gives me the flexibility to just use the iron sights until I have the money to add optics later.
As far as the rail goes. It looks like I can get the LMT upper w/ the DD Omega rail for $724 - or the DD 7.0 Lite rail for $740. Since the price is so close, which rail would actually be a better buy?
Finally, would I be better off getting the CMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG) for $135 or the LMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-LMT) for $129?
Does this look like a reasonable setup:
LMT 16" Upper with Daniel Defense 7.0 Lite Rail (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LMTDD) - $740
LMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-LMT) - $129
LaRue Back Up Iron Sight (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BUIS) - $89
Total: $958
I'm actually pretty paranoid about having enough magazines these days (on rifles and pistols) since there is always the possibility of another AWB. Because of that, I've definitely budgetted for more magazines with this purchase. I haven't previously considered getting a light since it doesn't seem to fit with my purposes - but I'll look into that once I get these put together.
Well if a man could choose his problems,thats certainly one I would want to have:p
Failure2Stop
12-08-07, 07:13
So, it sounds like you are dismissing the mid-length gas system and think I should just stick with the carbine-length - is that right?
Not really. I like midlength systems, but I don't mind carbine systems. I prefer 14.5 barrels w/ a perm FH for the 16" tax/paperwork avoidance. I am really only personally interested in the higher-end middies- LaRue/Noveske, or building one from high-end components. I simply gave drop-in options that would give you a good product under the $1000 mark.
16" middie or 14.5" pinned/welded are the best of the GP concept, with individuals making compelling arguments for either. I like the weight and balance of 14.5" guns better than 16" middies, and in my use I find 16" carbine length system guns closer in handling/performance to 14.5" than 16" guns.
As far as the rail goes. It looks like I can get the LMT upper w/ the DD Omega rail for $724 - or the DD 7.0 Lite rail for $740. Since the price is so close, which rail would actually be a better buy?
The DD Omega can be easily installed without having to do anything other than remove the handguards. With the Lite Rail you will have to completely pull the barrel down to individual components, which will require that either you buy the tools required or send it off to someone who will want to be paid.
The Omega is the cats meow.
Finally, would I be better off getting the CMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG) for $135 or the LMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-LMT) for $129?
If you get it from G&R it will be right, but I would personally get the LMT as they are individuallt MPId and test fired. There have been some rumblings about a shipment of LMT bolts recently, but I have full confidence that if Grant sells it to you it will be 100%.
Does this look like a reasonable setup:
LMT 16" Upper with Daniel Defense 7.0 Lite Rail (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LMTDD) - $740
LMT BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-LMT) - $129
LaRue Back Up Iron Sight (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BUIS) - $89
Total: $958
Looks good.
It took me years to get to that setup, I wish I been able to do it right the first time.
I haven't previously considered getting a light since it doesn't seem to fit with my purposes - but I'll look into that once I get these put together.
I usually recomend that people put a light on their guns before any other accessory. It one of those things that you don't realize how important they are until you are trained on them. But seriously, if you aren't going to attach a light, the DD Omega is unnecessary. That's a considerable amount of cash that could be pushed toward ammo.
Hope this helps, I am sure others will chime in with their preferences. Don't take my word as gospel, everyone has unique needs/wants, and yours might not fit with mine.
I'd bag the rail and go with regular HG's, but admittedely I think most people that get rails don't need them. You can mount a light on regular HG's using just a small section of "bolt on" rail. If going to classes you'll also need slings. If weight is a factor for your wife, I'd go as light as you can.
Well if a man could choose his problems,thats certainly one I would want to have:p
I'm definitely not complaining:) - but I still feel like I want to spend my money wisely. I've never spent this much on firearms in one shot before.
Not really. I like midlength systems, but I don't mind carbine systems. I prefer 14.5 barrels w/ a perm FH for the 16" tax/paperwork avoidance. I am really only personally interested in the higher-end middies- LaRue/Noveske, or building one from high-end components. I simply gave drop-in options that would give you a good product under the $1000 mark.
16" middie or 14.5" pinned/welded are the best of the GP concept, with individuals making compelling arguments for either. I like the weight and balance of 14.5" guns better than 16" middies, and in my use I find 16" carbine length system guns closer in handling/performance to 14.5" than 16" guns.
I would love to get a 14.5" carbine - but the idea of a permanently attached flash hider seems a bit messed up to me. On the other hand, that does seem like it could offer some advantages if I never end up needing to remove the front sight post (which I probably won't).
The DD Omega can be easily installed without having to do anything other than remove the handguards. With the Lite Rail you will have to completely pull the barrel down to individual components, which will require that either you buy the tools required or send it off to someone who will want to be paid.
I was actually talking about getting an upper with the Lite rails already installed for $740. The main advantage of the Lite rails to me seems to be that they are a couple of ounces lighter once they are installed. But part of that would actually be lost by having to get a sling swivel attachment which the Omega rails have built in. I also like that I can remove the Omega rails to clean under them more easily.
I usually recomend that people put a light on their guns before any other accessory. It one of those things that you don't realize how important they are until you are trained on them. But seriously, if you aren't going to attach a light, the DD Omega is unnecessary. That's a considerable amount of cash that could be pushed toward ammo.
Attaching a light seems like a great thing for home defense, but I just don't feel comfortable using this as an HD gun just yet - I'm far more comfortable with my pistols which are also easier to make quickly accessible and still keep them out of reach of the kids.
I am starting to think that I should just get the standard handguards - but if I skip the rails, that money won't go toward ammo :(. Since I got the approval to buy these guns, that's all I can really buy - ammo comes out of a different part of the budget since it's such a regular expense. If I skip the rails it will just be to keep the cost of the uppers down.
I'd bag the rail and go with regular HG's, but admittedely I think most people that get rails don't need them. You can mount a light on regular HG's using just a small section of "bolt on" rail. If going to classes you'll also need slings. If weight is a factor for your wife, I'd go as light as you can.
Maybe my thinking on the rail is a bit off. I've shot my RRA at the range quite a bit and I notice that the handguards start to get pretty hot even with the relatively slow shooting that I'm doing. It seems like that would start to be a problem in a carbine class and I was assuming that the rails would run a bit cooler since they seem to have better ventillation. I was originally just looking at the double heatshield handguards, but that seems like it could actually make the system hotter in the long-run by insulating the barrel.
I also like having the option to attach things if I need to - but truthfully I'm just not a gadget person so I probably never will (except maybe an optic or a light). I do have to admit that I like the looks of the rails with covers - but I'm trying not to let that influence me :o.
I actually have the slings covered already.
Failure2Stop
12-08-07, 11:13
Well, sounds like you have a good idea on what direction to go.
The rest is going to be your personal preference. You might want to contact G&R directly for advice, since it looks like you are going to buy everything from them in one shot.
Now go for it!:D
Here are my main questions and concerns:
1) My wife is in good physical shape, but she’s only 5’9” and I want to get something that is as light as possible so there isn’t a problem with these being too heavy when we go to a carbine class.
Is that a typo? I ask for clarification, because I am only 5'0", 5'9" is a fairly tall woman.
Is that a typo? I ask for clarification, because I am only 5'0", 5'9" is a fairly tall woman.
No, that's right - but I'm 6'7" and weigh close to 100lbs more than her so I guess she's small in comparison.
Well, sounds like you have a good idea on what direction to go.
The rest is going to be your personal preference. You might want to contact G&R directly for advice, since it looks like you are going to buy everything from them in one shot.
Now go for it!:D
I do need to just buy something and get it over with. My wife approved this purchase in September and I'm just having a hard time nailing down exactly what to get. There are so many options compared to just buying a new Sig or Glock - or even my RRA for that matter.
I suspect these AR-15s form some kind of addiction once you get one - maybe I'd be better to just admit I'm an addict and stop now before I get too deep:).
Failure2Stop
12-08-07, 13:42
I suspect these AR-15s form some kind of addiction once you get one...
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
You didn't know that? It has it's own name- BRD. Black Rifle Disease.
More fun than Herpes at least.
No, that's right - but I'm 6'7" and weigh close to 100lbs more than her so I guess she's small in comparison.
I do need to just buy something and get it over with. My wife approved this purchase in September and I'm just having a hard time nailing down exactly what to get. There are so many options compared to just buying a new Sig or Glock - or even my RRA for that matter.
I suspect these AR-15s form some kind of addiction once you get one - maybe I'd be better to just admit I'm an addict and stop now before I get too deep:).
I thought I might be able to offer some insight, if she was as short as me. I have a few ARs. My husband has built all of them, with input from me on a couple, i.e. "I want an old school AR with iron sights."
The best thing she can do, if she's specifically concerned about going to a class, is lift weights and do cardio for endurance regularly for a few months before she goes. I hope to go to some training in late winter, and I'm concerned about being able to handle the physical part of it.
I'll ask for some input from gotm4 about what he suggests.
Ladies I see identify priorities as short LOP at the rear and light weight out front. Optics are popular, VFGs are not.
The AR6520 is a very popular carbine with them. One group thought that a 6520 with an Aimpoint Micro on it was the cats meow.
I'm not a fan or mid-lengths in general, so I'll leave that to others.
When well instructed, ladies haven't complained about recoil. Their only complaints are that the ammunition is gone or others aren't loading mags fast enough.
HTH
Robb Jensen
12-09-07, 11:09
For an upper here's what I would recommend, though it will likely make them more than $1K each.
If you're going the NFA route:
LMT 10.5" upper assy w/A2 flash hider or Vortex flash hider.
BCM or LMT M16 BCG and CH.
LaRue or Daniel Defence Lite Rail 7.0".
LaRue BUIS or Troy flip up rear.
Aimpoint T1 Micro w/tall LaRue mount.
For your lower I'd recommend a Magpul CTR stock with a VLTOR receiver extension (buffer tube), w/standard rate buffer spring and a H2 buffer.
OR
If you're going the non-NFA route:
16" midlength Sabre Defence Gov't profile barrel w/FSB.
Daniel Defense forged A4 upper receiver.
LaRue or Daniel Defence Lite Rail 9.0".
BCM or LMT M16 BCG and CH.
LaRue BUIS or Troy flip up rear.
Aimpoint T1 Micro w/tall LaRue mount.
Primary Weapons FSC556 flash hider/compensator.
For your lower I'd recommend a Magpul CTR stock w/VLTOR receiver extension (buffer tube), w/standard rate buffer spring and standard CAR buffer.
Thanks again for all the info, this is exactly the type of input I was looking for.
I still have a couple of questions that this thread has raised for me:
1) If I were to go with a 14.5" barrel w/ a permanently attached flash hider - is it possible to remove that later without damaging the barrel?
2) I can see why you are recommending the Aimpoint Micro since it is so small and light weight - but it's also close to twice the price of the EOTech. Is it really worth that additional cost?
I was completely against the pinned flash hider idea, but I'm starting to think that it would probably be a reasonably good option for me if I could still have the option of replacing it later. The only reason I can think of to get it replaced is if I ever decide to get a sound suppressor.
Failure2Stop
12-10-07, 03:19
A permanently attached flash hider can be removed, but I would not do it myself. I would definately use the expertise of someone like Randall at AR15barrels.com. Some suppressors attach to a standard A2 FH, or you could buy something like the DTNC, which will also allow you to mount certain suppressors, thus not necessitating removal of your perm FH.
EoTechs are ok as a close-range optic that you don't really expect to stay on a long time and are ok if they turn themselves off at random times during your training. The only EoTech I would put on a serious gun is the 553, which is in the same price area as an Aimpoint with mount.
I just thought I'd let you guys know that I went ahead and made my purchase this afternoon - a Noveske 14.5" upper with an Omega rail.
I think I'm going to get one of the Aimpoint Micro sights to try it out too - but I may end up having to trade/sell one of my existing guns if I want to get 2 of them.
My goal is to have these be the last AR-15s that I get - we'll see how that goes... (Hopefully that isn't a decision that's enforced after the next election.)
Hopefully they'll get here soon so I can try them out :).
The info in this thread + the comparison chart that you guys have were both very helpful.
Failure2Stop
12-10-07, 17:14
Excellent, congratulations, you beat me to my next purchase.
Really happy for you man, have fun!
Hope you both enjoy the rifles, let me know what your wife thinks.
I just got the new Noveske upper this afternoon and I thought I should post a couple of pics. The lower is from Anvil Arms and has our family coat of arms etched in it. It turns out that the color on the upper and lower are a perfect match (which I wasn't necessarily expecting).
This new carbine weighs in at 6.8 lbs as shown, compared to 7.6 lbs for my RRA - so I'm happy about that too. The only things missing are the AimPoint Micro with the Lurue mount (which I haven't gotten yet), and the sling.
I should also put in a plug for the people at both Rainier Arms (http://www.rainierarms.com/) and Anvil Arms (http://www.anvilarms.com/) since the service, support, and quality from both companies has been above and beyond.
Thanks again for the help on this, I can't wait to get to the range tomorrow to start breaking it in:D .
http://www.mediacentermagic.com/gunpics/AnvilArms_Noveske.jpg
http://www.mediacentermagic.com/gunpics/aa_lower.jpg
Oh dude, that coat of arms idea is the SH!T!!!
I'm gonna copy you...just so you know.
Though I'll use my own coat of arms, not yours.:D
Did you get the receiver specially made with the etching, or did you have it done after the fact?
VERY :cool: !
Oh dude, that coat of arms idea is the SH!T!!!
I'm gonna copy you...just so you know.
Though I'll use my own coat of arms, not yours.:D
Did you get the receiver specially made with the etching, or did you have it done after the fact?
VERY :cool: !
Thanks! :D
Jon at Anvil Arms will do that on any lower receiver that you buy from him for free. I think he'll also do it on other lowers, but I'm not sure what it costs. He has a laser etcher and can do pretty much any design you want.
Thanks! :D
Jon at Anvil Arms will do that on any lower receiver that you buy from him for free. I think he'll also do it on other lowers, but I'm not sure what it costs. He has a laser etcher and can do pretty much any design you want.
Thanks!
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