View Full Version : why i will no longer use kydex attachments for any of my holsters
nobody knows
12-23-11, 21:23
This morning like every other morning I woke up took a piss brushed my teeth and put my gun on. this morning I discovered something odd, the holster I have been using for 6-8 months had a broken IWB loop(well c clip) I was snapped 90% of the way through. It was just enough to keep it from falling off. The odd thing is I have no clue how it could have happened, I don't use this holster for any serious training (i use a safariland holster for that)or any other activity that could have caused this. I have been planning on replacing them with soft loops as soon as these broke because of other story's I have herd but didn't think it would happen for quit some time because I don't use this holster for anything that's likely to damage it. Anyway its a kalibancloke(sp?) And I had problems getting the holster to begin with, then wen I did the mag pouch that I got at the same time didn't fit the magazine without some serious grinding with a dremel, I did this because I was told it would be about a month before I could get it replaced. So needless to say I'm not even going to bother trying to go through them. Dose anyone know of somewhere I can get some good soft IWB loops? I would prefer some kind of synthetic or rubberized material but if nothing like that is available I would use leather before I used kydex again. Thanks for any replies. Will get pics up wen I get home. http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0141.jpg http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0140.jpg http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0142.jpg
Voodoo_Man
12-23-11, 21:28
So you used kydex instead of metal for loops to attach to belt?
So you used kydex instead of metal for loops to attach to belt?
I do. I make my own, and holsters. Real easy to work with. I go through 2-3 front and rear belt loops a year. I keep an extra set in my work truck just in case.
knifekits.com and you can by 1'x'1 and 1'x2' sheets in various colors and thickness.
Google "working with kydex" and you will find lots of tips and tricks.
To the OP, should have used a heat gun or hair dryer to fix your magazine fitment issue.
Cross Breed sells various replacement belt clips at a decent price.
Raven sells replacement IWB soft loops with snaps on their site. Bit pricey, but supposedly made with hyper-super-advanced plastics derived from dragon scales with a unicorn semen coating for maximum durability. Attaching them to a holster they were not designed for may require you to break out the Dremel again or some drill. If need be, small stainless nuts, bolts and locking washers from home depot that fit the holster's OEM rivets will do just fine. Fit and cut to proper length, blue if you like with Birchwood Casey Super Blue. More secure than Chicago screws in my experience.
If you take a look through the How to Make A Kydex Holster Tutorial thread's last few pages, youll find some posts by me about using MALICE Clips as IWB soft loops. Short MALICE Clips are available through several online gear retailers, a simple google search will turn up plenty. Again, stainless hardware from the local Home Depot has never let me down and never presented any issues. They work for a cheap, secure and durable IWB loop solution.
Good luck.
nobody knows
12-24-11, 03:04
Thanks for the replies. I will look into raven and cross breed for some replacement soft loops. My main concern was the new loops not matching up with the holes in my holster. Or them not being the same size. Do you have any experience with the soft loops from secret city holsters? They look good but looks don't mean much. Anyways thanks again
For $4.50 to $10.50 depending on color, a utility knife, a drill, correct size drill bit, a sanding drum to fit the drill, and a heat gun or the wife's hairdryer, you can make a lifetime supply of belt loops/clips.
FWIW knifekits.com also sells premade belt loops for their knife sheath kits.
http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/index.php?cPath=41_56
Here is my holster. I camouflaged the front clip with a leather beltloop/key ring holder, and the rear clip is a 2/3 loop, not clip so it will not come off the belt, and the color matches my belt so you have to look to see the clip at the rear, it does not stand out.
I don't print, and my custom holster does not wear holes in my jeans. I wear the holster 15/7.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UwC5Q_bhOBA/STHdvgmbpEI/AAAAAAAAAK8/3YDos1ob9Rc/s640/112908_17071.jpg
Voodoo_Man
12-24-11, 08:16
While kydex is strong enough to hold/holster a weapon and can withstand rigorous usage in that context, most shy away from using kydex as the support loops for belts since metal is easier to use and will hold up a lot better.
StrikerFired
12-24-11, 08:38
Actually, Raven Concealment makes really good hooks/loops for attaching to kydex holsters. I don't know the pattern that your holster is, but if it is close to what might fit on yours you may want to give them a try.
SmokeJumper
12-24-11, 11:44
Try the Raven Concealment soft loops as suggested or the blade Tech soft loops with some hardware and either should work for you.
Plastic, in general, has very poor fatigue properties. Loading the hell out of it with a belt and moving around all day will eventually break plastic loops. Fact of life.
this is a similar reason i went with a tommy theis holster the second time around as opposed to another MTAC. i prefer the metal clips.
Plastic, in general, has very poor fatigue properties. Loading the hell out of it with a belt and moving around all day will eventually break plastic loops. Fact of life.
Very material specific. Certain polymers work well, and others don't work as well.
There is a reason the vast majority of our attachment options are made of materials other than Kydex.
Correct. Kydex also needs to be used correctly, which most aren't.
Correct. Kydex also needs to be used correctly, which most aren't.
Orionz for the win on that one. There's a misconception that what doesn't work for one company is impossible to work for others, which is way too vain for me to subscribe to.
I think anyone claiming their kydex loops break should post pictures and material info (if the customer knows it). The issue comes from blanket statements being applied to those who know what they are doing.
A good example I like to use was a Border Patrol agent telling me "I won't run custom kydex because holstering pushes the slide out of battery". Because one company chose not to remove the ejection port indentation, this person has been soured completely to a proven design by all makers. The same can be said of loops. Most people don't know the grade of kydex used, thickness used, and manufacturing process used on their loops. There's an assumption that all kydex belt loops are created equal.
Polymer is certainly a better choice, especially from the manufacturer's point of view. But kydex loops when made properly are perfectly suitable and durable. It's making mountains out of mole hills to say otherwise. In the age of the Internet, there's really no reason to take a gamble on wether a shop knows what they are doing. Word spreads quickly, especially when it's bad news.
It's always interesting to see who are the ones preaching against Kydex belt attachments, because they generally have a dog in the fight. Which is perfectly fine (it's called Marketing), but we've all heard a myth or two in our lives. That's why I'm selling my AR-15s... I hear they are pellet guns that have more malfunctions then any other rifle out there - so the jokes on you if you don't dump yours for the superior M14. ;-)
Merry Christmas Eve everyone.
OP - I have a set of scuffed up BladeTech soft loops. If you shoot me an email, I'll send them out as a Christmas gift. They will fit your KC holster. Cheers.
nobody knows
12-24-11, 17:10
I want to be clear about how I feel about kydex belt loops. I understand that kydex can be a good option if done right, but I'm not going to test fate to find a company that dose it right wen i can go with a different material and not have to worry if the kydex is of the proper grade or if the grain is running in the direction it should. I have nothing against kydex itself or I wouldn't own any kydex holsters,mag pouches,sheath's or any other kydex product. I just think there are better materials for the high stress area's such as the belt loops, its as simple as that. Thanks to everyone for the replies I'm going to take a few pic's of the clip and holster.
nobody knows - I feel your frustration. I went through belt clips fairly quickly until I designed the correct shape and used thicker stock (.125 from .080). I hope that you find a suitable replacement for your holster that works well, and does not draw attention.
FWIW I am a field service technician for a concrete paving company. Office dwelling desk jockey, I am not. My 60+ hour weeks consist of climbing, crawling, rolling around, hanging upside down...2-3 loops a year is expected and I daresay phenomenal for what I subject my holster and loops to. As it is I am on my third shell since 2007 and second leather backing.
I want to be clear about how I feel about kydex belt loops. I understand that kydex can be a good option if done right, but I'm not going to test fate to find a company that dose it right wen i can go with a different material and not have to worry if the kydex is of the proper grade or if the grain is running in the direction it should. I have nothing against kydex itself or I wouldn't own any kydex holsters,mag pouches,sheath's or any other kydex product. I just think there are better materials for the high stress area's such as the belt loops, its as simple as that. Thanks to everyone for the replies I'm going to take a few pic's of the clip and holster.
I can understand that, but it just illustrates my point. You have companies who devote a lot of time understanding the source material and companies who are content just making something - no matter the end result. So when something isn't made properly, it turns someone off completely.
What you are describing is an Overhook. There aren't a ton of options here. You can go with Crossbreed's metal clip - which will deform and no longer grip the belt over time. Then you have kydex, which is nearly impossible to make a durable Overhook because being open ended stresses the kydex to fatigue.
I'm a huge fan of Overhooks though. I greatly prefer them to Soft Loops. But I won't sell anything knowing there's a good chance it will break. Holsters hold tools to take lives, so the consequences are serious. Our solution was to reinforce the weak points. The results were great. They are heavy on the human labor part, but at least I can offer a durable Overhook that won't deform like metal.
There are plenty of examples of kydex Holsters and mag carriers breaking as well. I think anyone who is an actual kydex workman will say the same thing - the craftsmanship matters much more then materials. In time, design flaws will show themselves in the holster bodies out there. Since this is an AR site, I'll use another example. One AR maker can use the same exact materials (or even better) then another AR maker, but have their rifle perform considerably worse. The availability of kydex "how-to" guides and small minimum purchase order material distributors has started to dilute the reality that this is still a profession with varying degrees of skill. Customers have tons of information available on kydex shops. There's lots of reviews out there to help take the guesswork out.
Cheers.
http://img.tapatalk.com/452fc624-66cb-4e37.jpg
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but Ravens are rubberized Kevlar, rather do like mine thus far (can't say I've had them for years and years).
If you get the tuck-able Raven soft loops I don't know if the bar's eyes will match your holsters eyes but you can remove the soft loops themselves from the tuck-able bar (or just buy them without it) where if your C hooks can be removed from what attaches to your holster (bolted on some sort of bar) then I imagine you could attach them to that. This is not fact however just something to look into.
With your history with the company thus far, might want to switch to a Raven Phantom and get it over with :happy:
SW-Shooter
12-24-11, 20:43
In my most humble of opinions, I think you really should consider the Raven Concealment Systems Phantom holster. Their new soft loops are the best attachment device I have ever come across. The retention of their Kydex molding vs. Kydex - backed leather is far superior to anything I've used for IWB carry. I am a little bit biased because I simply am hooked on their products, support, and excellent after the sale service. I have never dealt with a more customer focused company in my life (at least not in the firearms community).
The soft loops are simply "bulletproof". Well not really bulletproof, more like idiot (I break things a lot) proof.
http://www.ravenconcealment.com/accessories/iwb-modular-accessories/iwb-eclipse-modular-accessories-iwb-soft-loops
You get what you pay for its pretty simple...
Yet failures can occur..In all brands .I see more failures of Raven knockoffs in classes every year.besides serpas
..Funny how I can toss my 300 pound self on to hard earth on my raven from 6+feet up over and over and over in classes for days on end every month without failure.......go figure...
nobody knows
12-25-11, 00:11
I can understand that, but it just illustrates my point. You have companies who devote a lot of time understanding the source material and companies who are content just making something - no matter the end result. So when something isn't made properly, it turns someone off completely.
What you are describing is an Overhook. There aren't a ton of options here. You can go with Crossbreed's metal clip - which will deform and no longer grip the belt over time. Then you have kydex, which is nearly impossible to make a durable Overhook because being open ended stresses the kydex to fatigue.
I'm a huge fan of Overhooks though. I greatly prefer them to Soft Loops. But I won't sell anything knowing there's a good chance it will break. Holsters hold tools to take lives, so the consequences are serious. Our solution was to reinforce the weak points. The results were great. They are heavy on the human labor part, but at least I can offer a durable Overhook that won't deform like metal.
There are plenty of examples of kydex Holsters and mag carriers breaking as well. I think anyone who is an actual kydex workman will say the same thing - the craftsmanship matters much more then materials. In time, design flaws will show themselves in the holster bodies out there. Since this is an AR site, I'll use another example. One AR maker can use the same exact materials (or even better) then another AR maker, but have their rifle perform considerably worse. The availability of kydex "how-to" guides and small minimum purchase order material distributors has started to dilute the reality that this is still a profession with varying degrees of skill. Customers have tons of information available on kydex shops. There's lots of reviews out there to help take the guesswork out.
Cheers.
http://img.tapatalk.com/452fc624-66cb-4e37.jpg
I understand your frustration with the way your industry is turning out. Unfortunately for the guys like you that take this vary seriously,there are twenty that don't. And until that changes there will be this type of attitude twords kydex belt loops from those that have had a bad experience with them.
About the crossbreed belt clips,I will not be using them as I have had to deal with metal losing their tension.
I forgot, CB switched to a metal clip.
To the OP, what state do you live in?
Send me your broken clip (unless you need to send it back to the manufacturer for warranty), PM me what style pant's you normally wear, how thick and how wide your belt is, and let me see if I can come up with a couple of alternatives for you.
Edit - I just saw the pics you posted. I can't believe they riveted your clips to the holster. If you were in the Denver CO area, I could have that fixed proper in about an hour. Regardless of what you choose to do, you will need to drill the rivets out to remove the broken clip and either install new rivets, or go with Chicago screws. Another reason I prefer the leather/kydex hybrids.
Thanks for the replies. I will look into raven and cross breed for some replacement soft loops. My main concern was the new loops not matching up with the holes in my holster. Or them not being the same size. Do you have any experience with the soft loops from secret city holsters? They look good but looks don't mean much. Anyways thanks again
Secret City soft loops are excellent, as long as they fit your holster I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.
Edit - I just saw the pics you posted. I can't believe they riveted your clips to the holster. If you were in the Denver CO area, I could have that fixed proper in about an hour. Regardless of what you choose to do, you will need to drill the rivets out to remove the broken clip and either install new rivets, or go with Chicago screws. Another reason I prefer the leather/kydex hybrids.
It does not appear to be that way, the actually clip is just 2 parts.
nobody knows
12-25-11, 12:21
^^^^^this is correct they are not riveted to the holster. They use what I believe people call Chicago screws(tho I'm not positive)
I use .125" Kydex for my belt loops and of the hundreds of holsters I sold this year, I replaced two loops. I also make my own soft loops with Line 24 snaps and reinforced rubber straps. They work just as well as any other loop I've ever seen and they cost me about $1 a pair. I too use to be a Raven fanboy, and then I started making my own...
RCSMichael
12-25-11, 16:48
This morning like every other morning I woke up took a piss brushed my teeth and put my gun on. this morning I discovered something odd, the holster I have been using for 6-8 months had a broken IWB loop(well c clip) I was snapped 90% of the way through. It was just enough to keep it from falling off. The odd thing is I have no clue how it could have happened, I don't use this holster for any serious training (i use a safariland holster for that)or any other activity that could have caused this. I have been planning on replacing them with soft loops as soon as these broke because of other story's I have herd but didn't think it would happen for quit some time because I don't use this holster for anything that's likely to damage it. Anyway its a kalibancloke(sp?) And I had problems getting the holster to begin with, then wen I did the mag pouch that I got at the same time didn't fit the magazine without some serious grinding with a dremel, I did this because I was told it would be about a month before I could get it replaced. So needless to say I'm not even going to bother trying to go through them. Dose anyone know of somewhere I can get some good soft IWB loops? I would prefer some kind of synthetic or rubberized material but if nothing like that is available I would use leather before I used kydex again. Thanks for any replies. Will get pics up wen I get home. http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0141.jpg http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0140.jpg http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff396/Joe19111/IMAG0142.jpg
nobody knows-
Without further derailing this thread into a debate on polymer science (a topic into which we have invested several years of research and a considerable sum of money), let me just say that your conclusion is quite sound.
The issue at hand is a fairly simple one. If the manufacturer is unable or unwilling to honor his warranty, I will cover it under mine.
Email us directly at gearinfo@ravenconcealment.com and Tom or I will make arrangements to have you send your holster, mag pouch, hardware, etc in for a full replacement at no charge. I will replace every piece of your carry rig as if you were one of our customers and had a breakage on a holster we made.
I don't often do this, but I find situations like yours are becoming more and more common in the holster market. It offends me to see companies that have copied our product design failing to take care of their customers. People will see pictures of a broken Phantom clone, assume it is a Raven Concealment product, and then read in the post how the manufacturer did a shitty job of making the product and now is not taking care of the customer. Their ineptitude inadvertently can have a negative reflection on us.
Please email us at your earliest opportunity and we'll take care of your situation.
Merry Christmas!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now that right there is customer service on a whole new level.
Michael,
Out of curiosity, are your C-Clips made from kydex or polymer?
Merry Christmas.
- Steve.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-25-11, 23:15
.....
:eek: Wow, unbeatable customer service. Between PSS and RCS, you guys really have us covered. Im a fan of both, and both have taken care of me in ways that they didnt need to.
nobody knows
12-27-11, 15:20
Wow I certainly didn't expect anything like this to come from my thread, that's an amazing offer that I greatly appreciate. I sent an email and again i am vary grateful to you and the rest of RCS. Also thanks to everyone else that has replied to the thread particularly Steve.s and sticks(also a vary generous offer thanks for that) I will be getting a RCS phantom for the rest of my pistols in the near future.
Michael,
Out of curiosity, are your C-Clips made from kydex or polymer?
Merry Christmas.
- Steve.
Can anyone answer this?
Cheers.
RCSMichael
12-30-11, 15:42
Can anyone answer this?
Cheers.
Our J-hooks and C-hooks are presently made from Kydex, although that will be changing very shortly.
In early 2010, we began the change-over from Kydex belt loops to our own proprietary materials. This change was undertaken to improve the durability and consistency of our products. It has proven to be quite successful to that end.
In mid 2010, we made the decision to discontinue our Kydex IWB hardware options (overhooks, J-hooks, and C-hooks) because we did not feel that they offered the same durability as our other options. However, overwhelming customer feedback convinced us to re-introduce the Kydex J-hooks and C-hooks just one month after we had dropped them from the product line. This was a concession we were unhappy about making, and we made it only because we knew we would soon be cutting steel on a better solution.
In the mean-time, when customers call or email asking us to recommend an IWB option, we always steer them toward our IWB soft loops because we truly feel they are our best option. We are upfront with customers that we do not recommend the Kydex options, as evidenced by the fact that not a single employee of RCS wears them. We offer them only because we have enough customers that demanded some sort of lower-profile hardware option. Regardless what option they choose, we stand behind the product and honor our warranty.
Kydex is sub-optimal, at best, for a belt attachment material. We've done the due diligence to understand the science behind the polymers we use. We've put a lot more research into this than just talking to a sales rep from Kydex. We have spent hundreds of hours researching this topic. We have invested a considerable amount of time and money to hire subject matter experts within the field. Plus, we are fortunate to be just 30 minutes away from the most respected polymer science research center in the world. On top of all that, we've been making the Phantom holster since 2005 and have well over 75,000 of them in service around the world; no other company making clones of the Phantom can even hope to approach the knowledge base we have accumulated on this platform.
Kydex's suitability as a belt attachment material is not a topic I am willing to debate. That debate will be decided with much more clarity and finality by the consumers, as they discover first-hand which products are capable of standing the test of time and hard-use, and which ones aren't.
I have been making my own Kydex for years and break Kydex belt loops every year or so of daily wear. Design is everything and minimizing the wear points and using thicker Kydex are really just workarounds for the fact that Kydex doesn't hold up well to the bending/twisting/pulling forces a belt loop is subjected to.
For OWB the newer Raven polymer belt loops are the best I have seen, super strong with a slight give to bend with your body.
For IWB, especially now with attached lights making the gun bigger, I have found that a simple loop of paracord provides strength, ultra low profile, and the ability for the gun to find it's own resting spot with your changing position. I was skeptical at first, but after a few months I am very satisfied with this solution. I have used just about every type of belt loop out there and my previous favorite was a slim fake leather but the jangling snaps started annoying me. Now I have no snaps, no sound, and no protrusion points with paracord!
Dennis.
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad74/stocknum/IWBparacord.jpg
CaptainDooley
01-01-12, 15:05
At work this morning I snapped the kydex belt attachment for my Kaluban Cloak surefire 6p carrier. I really liked that it was a tiny little carrier, but because if it's extremely small design none of the spare belt loops from other manufacturers in my shoebox of parts fit it... If they respond to emails as well as they did when I first ordered it, I'll be using a different carrier from here on out...
For IWB, especially now with attached lights making the gun bigger, I have found that a simple loop of paracord provides strength, ultra low profile, and the ability for the gun to find it's own resting spot with your changing position. I was skeptical at first, but after a few months I am very satisfied with this solution. I have used just about every type of belt loop out there and my previous favorite was a slim fake leather but the jangling snaps started annoying me. Now I have no snaps, no sound, and no protrusion points with paracord!
Dennis.
I just set up my carrier like this - seems to be a pretty good interim solution if nothing else...
Our J-hooks and C-hooks are presently made from Kydex, although that will be changing very shortly.
In early 2010, we began the change-over from Kydex belt loops to our own proprietary materials. This change was undertaken to improve the durability and consistency of our products. It has proven to be quite successful to that end.
In mid 2010, we made the decision to discontinue our Kydex IWB hardware options (overhooks, J-hooks, and C-hooks) because we did not feel that they offered the same durability as our other options. However, overwhelming customer feedback convinced us to re-introduce the Kydex J-hooks and C-hooks just one month after we had dropped them from the product line. This was a concession we were unhappy about making, and we made it only because we knew we would soon be cutting steel on a better solution.
In the mean-time, when customers call or email asking us to recommend an IWB option, we always steer them toward our IWB soft loops because we truly feel they are our best option. We are upfront with customers that we do not recommend the Kydex options, as evidenced by the fact that not a single employee of RCS wears them. We offer them only because we have enough customers that demanded some sort of lower-profile hardware option. Regardless what option they choose, we stand behind the product and honor our warranty.
Kydex is sub-optimal, at best, for a belt attachment material. We've done the due diligence to understand the science behind the polymers we use. We've put a lot more research into this than just talking to a sales rep from Kydex. We have spent hundreds of hours researching this topic. We have invested a considerable amount of time and money to hire subject matter experts within the field. Plus, we are fortunate to be just 30 minutes away from the most respected polymer science research center in the world. On top of all that, we've been making the Phantom holster since 2005 and have well over 75,000 of them in service around the world; no other company making clones of the Phantom can even hope to approach the knowledge base we have accumulated on this platform.
Kydex's suitability as a belt attachment material is not a topic I am willing to debate. That debate will be decided with much more clarity and finality by the consumers, as they discover first-hand which products are capable of standing the test of time and hard-use, and which ones aren't.
Michael,
I simply asked a question. It seemed odd that you are replacing broken gear and knocking kydex belt attachments while using the same material. Which I honestly wasn't sure if you guys are using Kydex.
Which method of attaching a holster to the belt is largely a matter of personal preference. Real talk - will your opinion change when the material changes? Because realistically it will be doing the same thing.
You didn't have luck with kydex for belt attachments. But plenty of larger companies before you have had success using it and still do. You can take a shot that I only talked to a kydex sales rep (who also represents Ford Motor Company) - but they are pretty upfront in saying that if you can't get Kydex T to carry a handgun without breaking, then the production method is flawed. That's directly in their lane based on the use of Kydex in industries MUCH larger then the holster industry. I can agree with that. High Points are crappy guns, but it's because they are made poorly - not because of the plastic frame. To play Devil's Advocate - I live 30 minutes away from the Motor City, but I don't know jack about building a windshield wiper motor. You've posted before a spot-on post about how craftsmanship is always more important than materials - with which I 100% agree. I learn and appreciate the larger companies' work more and more as time goes on - which includes RCS.
But I don't believe that Kydex belt attachments are doomed to fail. I'm also not surprised that many have had their loops fail - even after a short amount of time. There are plenty of companies - large and small - that use kydex as an attachment material with great success. Us included. I haven't had any standard loops break. I also haven't had any holster bodies crack. If all of my holster bodies started cracking tomorrow - I wouldn't blame Kydex though.
I'm not mincing words here either. I'm not saying your Polymer loops are inferior by any means (I have seen this claimed by some and it is full retard). From a manufacturer's standpoint - polymer loops are a dream come true. You guys aren't the first ones to realize the cost savings and production increase capabilities provided by injection molding. And I don't doubt for a second you guys did everything in your power to ensure the best possible blend of materials went into that loop design. My point is simply that Kydex is a perfectly suitable belt attachment method that will be used by a variety of holster makers for a long time to come. The fact that you still sell Kydex belt attachments shows that. And I don't doubt for a second that your C-Clips will last considerably longer (if not forever) compared to what is pictured above. You guys know your shit, and I can respect that.
As for the "Phantom Clones", there are plenty of clones out there. There also is nothing stopping the owners from simply purchasing your polymer loops should theirs break since the rivet spacing is identical. And I'm sure this does and will continue to happen. But there are plenty of companies who have stepped outside of producing clones and pushed two pieces of kydex riveted together in the direction they envisioned. I'm not surprised at all there are countless Phantom clones on the market. When I got into this, there wasn't a true Phantom clone out there. One company used your rivet spacing, but still had enough unique elements to distinguish themselves. But all those companies got shit on anyways. There was no respect for pushing the bounds of a good idea without producing a look alike. So I'm sure plenty of these exact copies said "Eff it, we're going to catch Hell anyways".
The flipside to that is as your company continues to grow, those companies will get hit the hardest. I know that if nothing else, I chose to use a thicker material then you were using at the time - for both holster bodies to prevent cracking and belt attachments to prevent fatigue. You've since switched to that same thickness for the holster bodies. I've been careful to keep our line unique enough though.
As you move towards more universal items (as seen in your recent mag carriers), the differences will continue to grow. Given the recent steps, I don't think we are far from seeing an injection molded holster coming out soon. Should this happen, I'm curious how you feel you haven't stepped in the realm of the countless polymer holster companies. Just my guess though - I could be way off base.
I'll end my ramble. With all due respect - I have no desire to debate kydex belt attachments with you either. We are both trying to sell something - but I am giving my honest experience in Kydex and feedback from Kydex LLC. Your steps towards polymer aren't being questioned at all. I don't think that is the issue at hand. It's whether Kydex can be a suitable attachment material when the proper specs, materials, and production methods are used.
I surely won't hold my breath - but I'd love to shoot the shit with you. I am passionate about what I do, and I'm sure you are a wealth of knowledge in the subject matter and business aspects within the industry.
Best to you and your family. Cheers to a successful new year.
Steve
IMO the problem with the Kydex loops is that they have to be a generic shape and size for everyone and that is where the flaw is. Combine that with not using a proper gun belt and you will have a higher failure rate.
I'll wager put more strain and abuse on mine than 99% of the owners out there. Good gods, how many people go through 2 shells and a leather backing (for the hybrids) in 3 years (when the leather split)!?!
All my belt attachments are custom made and shaped to my belt and the denim jeans I wear. Easy enough for the consumer to customize their store bought ones to do the same.
IMO the problem with the Kydex loops is that they have to be a generic shape and size for everyone and that is where the flaw is. Combine that with not using a proper gun belt and you will have a higher failure rate.
I'll wager put more strain and abuse on mine than 99% of the owners out there. Good gods, how many people go through 2 shells and a leather backing (for the hybrids) in 3 years (when the leather split)!?!
All my belt attachments are custom made and shaped to my belt and the denim jeans I wear. Easy enough for the consumer to customize their store bought ones to do the same.
I think a "proper" gun belt like my Wilderness 5 stitch actually put MORE pressure on kydex loops as they have minimal give and stretch. A thin leather dress belt would "lose" to a Kydex loop and likely wear faster than the Kydex. Combine that with sitting in cars and chairs for long periods, shifting around while sitting, and any other random acrobatics then even a well designed belt loop will ultimately fail.
My loops even get gouges in them if I pull my belt out of them too quickly.
Dennis.
It is less about the belt type (though a "tactical belt" will be harder on the loops) and really just about the loads applied to the loops. When you move, turn, get up, walk, and do anything there is a change in applied force on the loops. Where you wear the holster and how tight the belt is will play into this, as well as the size of the user. To over simplify matters you are bending a piece of plastic back and forth. Take a strip of metal and bend it back and forth, over and over. It will break. Same thing happens here. Some designs attempt to work around it with a material change or production change but they only buy time, not a bombproof product. It is just a fact of life you need to deal with if you want a rigid mounted holster. The advantages gained over other holsters come back at you somewhere else.
Buy good stuff and worry about shooting.
Dennis,
Any chance we can see the inside of your rig? Very curious of how you tied the para cord in.
Thanks
Heavy Metal
01-10-12, 16:43
nobody knows-
Without further derailing this thread into a debate on polymer science (a topic into which we have invested several years of research and a considerable sum of money), let me just say that your conclusion is quite sound.
The issue at hand is a fairly simple one. If the manufacturer is unable or unwilling to honor his warranty, I will cover it under mine.
Email us directly at gearinfo@ravenconcealment.com and Tom or I will make arrangements to have you send your holster, mag pouch, hardware, etc in for a full replacement at no charge. I will replace every piece of your carry rig as if you were one of our customers and had a breakage on a holster we made.
I don't often do this, but I find situations like yours are becoming more and more common in the holster market. It offends me to see companies that have copied our product design failing to take care of their customers. People will see pictures of a broken Phantom clone, assume it is a Raven Concealment product, and then read in the post how the manufacturer did a shitty job of making the product and now is not taking care of the customer. Their ineptitude inadvertently can have a negative reflection on us.
Please email us at your earliest opportunity and we'll take care of your situation.
Merry Christmas!!
WOW! Bravo Zulu!
You guys rock! Makes me a proud Raven customer.
Now get some OD Green Kydex like we discussed at the November Vickers class and I will be a happy camper!
Dennis,
Any chance we can see the inside of your rig? Very curious of how you tied the para cord in.
Thanks
You can see in the pic. A simple knot at the end of the loop, like you would for a keychain. I am sure there is a cleaner way but I started with this and it works...
Dennis.
I see now just a simple loop with a knot on the end. I will add this idea to my back up plan for (if/when) my "J" hooks fail while away from the house.
I have been carrying my Glock 26 everyday in an MTAC holster for the last 2 years. To date no issues with the "J" hooks except the hardware getting loose but nothing a little blue loctite did not fix. I picked up a second MTAC just knowing that one day something might fail or just plain wear out. I prefer the leather backing of the MTAC it makes all day carry very comfortable against bare skin.
I see now just a simple loop with a knot on the end. I will add this idea to my back up plan for (if/when) my "J" hooks fail while away from the house.
I have been carrying my Glock 26 everyday in an MTAC holster for the last 2 years. To date no issues with the "J" hooks except the hardware getting loose but nothing a little blue loctite did not fix. I picked up a second MTAC just knowing that one day something might fail or just plain wear out. I prefer the leather backing of the MTAC it makes all day carry very comfortable against bare skin.
It should be fine for backup since it works great as primary for me :)
I prefer thin Kydex only to minimize the print as much as possible. I typically wear an undershirt, but when I don't I wear boxers that can be pulled up a bit to shield with no issues.
Dennis.
Pull the dots are the best invention for IWB. Nuff said.
I have both PSS and Raven Kydex, I like my Raven for concealment, but my PSS is built like a tank. I have fallen, stumbled and crashed all 210 lbs of my weight on mine for over a year a half and it shines like a gem. Plus Steve and all the folks at PSS have gone above and beyond to help out with my poor planning ( and had my last Kydex rig to me within a week, and in time for my unscheduled training on the weekend.) Hats off to PSS.
Pull the dots are the best invention for IWB. Nuff said.
Except when they jingle too much, or due to your body/carry type they protrude too much, or when you just want the absolute slimmest possible IWB holster from all dimensions.
No one thing works for everyone.
Dennis.
ps. I used pull the dots for 15 years before this, and I do miss the easy off when using paracord. This is just an experiment for now, but it has been working out well for months.
I have both PSS and Raven Kydex, I like my Raven for concealment, but my PSS is built like a tank. I have fallen, stumbled and crashed all 210 lbs of my weight on mine for over a year a half and it shines like a gem. Plus Steve and all the folks at PSS have gone above and beyond to help out with my poor planning ( and had my last Kydex rig to me within a week, and in time for my unscheduled training on the weekend.) Hats off to PSS.
How old is your Raven holster? In the beginning, we pushed the limits of Kydex by making our gear out of .06 thick material. It worked pretty well and we still have thousands of .06 pieces in use (I carry some myself), but after years of use and abuse it became apparent that .08 thick material was the best compromise for a durable, yet concealable, holster. If you have older RCS gear your above post will be comparing apples to oranges.
So it is probably the .06, but I love it still all the same. Was in no way complaining, it is still the holster I carry more than any other!
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