View Full Version : 2wd vs. 4wd
I would like to get some opinions on 2WD vs 4WD in regards to an overall "package" when it comes to prepping. My current truck is 2wd and and more importantly (for me) is that it is paid for, only has 34,xxx miles on it, has all the space I need, and does everything I ask of it, but it is not a 4x4. As I continually re-evaluate my prep plans this is something that keeps nagging at the back of my mind, but I don't need a 4x4 on a regular basis.
So I guess my question is this; How much emphasis should realistically be put on this from the prep standpoint? Is the extra cost worth the peace of mind? Or would the money I would spend to get into a decent 4x4 be better spent elsewhere? Or would I be better off just beefing up the truck I already have to make it a bit more capable?
Any thoughts would be welcomed.
If you dont have much experience driving a 4x4 it will only get you stuck worse faster.
I only buy 4 wheel drives. You get your money back on the extra cost when you trade them in.
If you don't get a positrack type rear end when you get a 4x4 you're wasting your time, I'd rather have a 2 wheel drive with posi than a 4x4 without posi.
If you run off in the mud and bottom out it won't matter if you have 4x4 or not. I bought mine because I like to get around in the winter.
You could always find an older 4x4 and keep your present truck since it's low miles and paid for.
NoveskeFan
12-24-11, 14:18
If you have a need to be off road, or if the areas you will be call for it, then it can be a good thing. I live in an area where the roads are about the only way to travel (woods everywhere). That said, I drive a 4x4. If my truck was 2wd I dont think I'd loose any sleep, especially if it was paid off. Just carry some tow straps and pay attention to where you go.
A possible upgrade for your existing truck is to install a locking rear differential. This will provide equal power output/drive to both rear tires. Most vehicles have an "open" or "limited slip" differential. Open provides power to only one tire -thus most vehicles are only "1 wheel drive". Limited slip will provide some extra drive to the second wheel. It is amazing how far one can get with only a locked rear axle.
Most "four wheel" vehicles (without locking differentials) are really only "two wheel drive" (one driving wheel in back and one in front).
If you dont have much experience driving a 4x4 it will only get you stuck worse faster.
That is been my experience too. Like ryr8828 said, get something with an anti-spin rear end. That will help you through most situations that you are likely to encounter.
If you don't go off-road, or drive a lot in snow, then there is no point for 4wd.
4wd has a better resale value, and depending on where you live, a better resale market.
I live in the boonies, therefore I always have at least one 4wd vehicle.
DeltaSierra
12-24-11, 14:50
If your truck is paid for, go buy yourself a good set of chains, and look into getting a locking axle....
When that truck dies, get a good four wheel drive truck (Toyota Tacoma or 4Runner....)
Putting a true locker in the rear is not a good idea IMO. You will wear out tires much faster. They make alot of ratcheting and popping noises (depending on model) as well as chirp the tires in parking lots. I am assuming this is a daily driver.
The best advice I think I can give would be this;
Learn the limits of what you have, a 2wd will go alot more places than people give them credit for.
If you really want a 4wd, again learn the limits of what you have, 4wd wont go as far as people give them credit for.
NoveskeFan
12-24-11, 14:58
If your truck is paid for, go buy yourself a good set of chains, and look into getting a locking axle....
Also, the right tires can help.
DeltaSierra
12-24-11, 15:13
Putting a true locker in the rear is not a good idea IMO.
I agree, but that is why you put in an electronic or air locker, so that when it is not needed, you can flip a switch, and you are back to a limited slip differential...
Putting a true locker in the rear is not a good idea IMO. You will wear out tires much faster. They make alot of ratcheting and popping noises (depending on model) as well as chirp the tires in parking lots. I am assuming this is a daily driver.
The best advice I think I can give would be this;
Learn the limits of what you have, a 2wd will go alot more places than people give them credit for.
If you really want a 4wd, again learn the limits of what you have, 4wd wont go as far as people give them credit for.
Lots of truth there. Not sure if winter's an issue. But slippery conditions, until the snow gets really deep, are not locker-friendly. An Eaton Truetrac is a good option. Not too pricey, much better traction than an open diff, less stress on the drivetrain than a locker.
Once both rear wheels are working for you, get some weight over them, and a 2wd will surprise you.
Winches are good, too. :D
I recently bought a Jeep Cheerokee Sport 4x4 for just over 5k for my second vehicle so I could give my car a break
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I do appreciate it. The points that many of you bring up are some of the reasons why NOT to upgrade to a 4x4, the winters here in the SW so far have never been bad enough to need more than what I have, 2wd with about 300lbs worth of sand bags and other recovery gear that I always carry.
My thoughts about the 4x4 were really along the lines of adding another tool to the box so to speak if the situation dictated that I had to bug out for whatever reason, kind of "better to have it" type of mentality so to speak. Again just trying to decide if those more in the know than me feel it is an absolute must have in terms of having a well thought out over all plan.
Thanks again gents, and Happy Holidays.
The added benefit of more mileage per gallon may be more important than 4x4.
Lots of truth there. Not sure if winter's an issue. But slippery conditions, until the snow gets really deep, are not locker-friendly. An Eaton Truetrac is a good option. Not too pricey, much better traction than an open diff, less stress on the drivetrain than a locker.
Once both rear wheels are working for you, get some weight over them, and a 2wd will surprise you.
Winches are good, too. :D
I'm going to second everything said here and add emphasis on the suggestion to get an adequate winch. Target is at least 1.5 x your gross vehicle weight. In addition to the winch, add some recovery tools that go with it...straps, pulleys, GLOVES, and possibly a recovery anchor (not absolutely necessary) and a hi lift jack.
Add a land anchor to go with the winch if in the desert.
Knowing how to drive, maintain traction and control on various surfaces, negotiate obstacles, and what your vehicle is and isn't capable of will do more for you than anything. Ground clearance, entry and departure angles, power, and quality tires are huge variables in contingency driving. That being said, having four wheel drive capability expands your options. It's never a bad thing, but it's not all many think it is.
There is a difference between being a gun owner and a shooter. Likewise, there is a difference between being a vehicle owner and a driver.
All 3 of my vehicles are 4X4. I might only "need" it once or twice a year but I feel it pays for itself. Four wheel drive is nice from a control point, but it will not help you stop any faster.
I feel it's better to have it and learn how to use it, than not have it and not know what you are missing.
Thomas M-4
12-24-11, 20:52
I will pretty much confirm what others are saying.
I have witnessed plenty of 4wd stuck in the mud with shit tires and a 2wd with proper mud tires go right through the same hole. The proper Tires help tremendously also the driver is a big factor. If you decide to keep the 2wd I would suggest picking up 2 rims and have a dedicated set of tires mounted on them, And just swap the rear wheels out when you need them.
Alaskapopo
12-24-11, 21:46
If you dont have much experience driving a 4x4 it will only get you stuck worse faster.
Totally disagree. But I live in an area where 4 wheel drive is needed many times of the year. But even a novice driver benefits from 4 wheel drive on icy snowy road surfaces. When you get your 4x4 stuck however you really are stuck.
Pat
TX Rancher
12-25-11, 08:55
If I read your post properly, you're asking about 4WD in case of a SHTF scenario. If you're plan during a SHTF incident is to vacate your current location and head for the hills then 4WD would be a good idea.
Without knowing in advance the reason for the SHTF it would be premature to assume the roads would be in good shape. What if the situation was flood, or earthquake? Roads may be unusable requiring you to go off-road to get around the bad spots.
Even if the roads are in acceptable shape, you may still be forced off road due to wrecks or broke down vehicles.
Local issues may exist where the main roads are blocked (gangs, LE, etc) forcing you to use secondary roads that may be in bad repair. The extra ground clearance of a 4X4 could come in handy.
I know others have said a 2X with good tires can sometimes beat a 4X with bad tires. But I suspect they would agree a 4X with good tires would outperform the 2X with good tires holding the skill of the driver equal in both cases.
As others have said there are downsides to using a 4X for everyday commutes, so if you don't need it in your normal life and your not that convinced a SHTF scenario is that high a probability in your life, don't waste your money on a 4X.
In my life a 4X is a necessity. As a rancher I spend many hours off road in all kinds of weather so I run 4X4 with limited slip axles and still get stuck once or twice a year. That's when the wench or the 4X tractor comes in handy.
I've had workers who have gotten stuck on heavy dew grass with their 2X on a slight incline (open differentials).
Whether you decide to get a 4X or stay with your present truck, go out and learn the limitations of your vehicle...find out what it can and can't do. Then in a SHTF situation you will know the limitations and better avoid demanding more than your system can provide.
Good luck whichever way you go!
If your really worried about it go buy a new jeep wrangler rubicon. It has strong Dana axels and lockers front and rear. It is the most capable factory off road vehicle and has room for 5 if you get the unlimited. I think 4x4 is a good thing in a shtf scenario because of the points made above.
I didnt mean to sound like a 4x4 is not a good thing, I have had one since I was 16 (not the same one) now it is an F250 with 35" Buckshots.
I have learned my lessons offroading the hard way. Here in Alabama the red clay turns into some nasty mess that eats trucks and heaven help you if you find the yellow clay or black swamp.
I said what I did mainly because of the inexperienced drivers propensity to sink their vehicle to door handles because "it is a 4x4 I thought it would make it".
If I read your post properly, you're asking about 4WD in case of a SHTF scenario. If you're plan during a SHTF incident is to vacate your current location and head for the hills then 4WD would be a good idea.
Without knowing in advance the reason for the SHTF it would be premature to assume the roads would be in good shape. What if the situation was flood, or earthquake? Roads may be unusable requiring you to go off-road to get around the bad spots.
Even if the roads are in acceptable shape, you may still be forced off road due to wrecks or broke down vehicles.
Local issues may exist where the main roads are blocked (gangs, LE, etc) forcing you to use secondary roads that may be in bad repair. The extra ground clearance of a 4X4 could come in handy.
I know others have said a 2X with good tires can sometimes beat a 4X with bad tires. But I suspect they would agree a 4X with good tires would outperform the 2X with good tires holding the skill of the driver equal in both cases.
As others have said there are downsides to using a 4X for everyday commutes, so if you don't need it in your normal life and your not that convinced a SHTF scenario is that high a probability in your life, don't waste your money on a 4X.
In my life a 4X is a necessity. As a rancher I spend many hours off road in all kinds of weather so I run 4X4 with limited slip axles and still get stuck once or twice a year. That's when the wench or the 4X tractor comes in handy.
I've had workers who have gotten stuck on heavy dew grass with their 2X on a slight incline (open differentials).
Whether you decide to get a 4X or stay with your present truck, go out and learn the limitations of your vehicle...find out what it can and can't do. Then in a SHTF situation you will know the limitations and better avoid demanding more than your system can provide.
Good luck whichever way you go!
Thanks TX.-This is kind of my thought process on this. Natural disasters and the like is kind of the motivation for toying around with the idea. I was in Joplin two weeks before the tornado hit last spring and that is what got the wheels turning so to speak.
many of you stated that getting to know the limitations of not only the vehicle but my capabilities as well is the starting point, and I agree 100%. So the my thought process at this point I think is to start looking at a good 4x4 and then focus on learning the in's and out's of that system vs. throwing money at a 2wd and determining that it is a no-go for what I want to accomplish in the long run.
Thanks again guys, and I hope you and yours have had a Merry X-mas so far!
Good comments in this thread. 4WD certainly can get you stuck faster if you drive like an idiot. 2WD can go places you wouldn't expect, if you're skilled and/or lucky.
Honestly I think this is another case of the the Indian being more important than the arrow. Last time it snowed down here in Alabama, the roadside ditches were full of dumbasses in 4x4's.
well you can add my voice to the crowd that says the following IN THIS ORDER:
-common sense
-good tires
-enough ground clearance
-recovery gear (hi lift, strap, shovel, axe, maybe a winch or come-along)
-Tire chains for the drive wheels
-limited slip or switched locking diff
all of those things would make you almost as capable as a 4x.
If you are not familiar with tire chains, you want the kind with the biggest tread chain you can buy for a light truck. I use them for logging with my truck when 4x and good tires just wont cut it. your speed is limited to @ 25mph but that probably wont be a factor when you need them. And YES you can put them on after you are stuck (most of the time).
there are a lot of solutions to problems short of going to a 4x4.
You need lots of weight over the rear axle.
If tshtf how much fuel will be available? For how long? How much can you store?
Dumping a bunch of $ into my vehicle is something I'd love to do but I don't think it makes as much sense as dumping $ into freeze dried food, batteries, ammo, nvg, weapons, seeds, tools, etc.
Worst thing ever would be to have a jeep with $5000 aftermarket parts and no gas. Thus a giant lawn ornament.
As to your original question: keep it. 4x4 is awesome, but debt is not . Replace it with 4x4 next time.
Where I live, 2wd is pretty much useless.
I've spent a lot of time in Northern Canada, backcountry/dirt-road areas, and been through terrible snow storms. I've never gotten stuck with a FWD Civic with proper snow tires. With the proper snow tires on a light-weight manual like that you can have a better snow-machine than the majority of 4X4 SUVs who stick with their factory all-seasons "because it's 4X4." I've been able to safely keep the speed-limit on snow-packed roads in Michigan and fly past many-a large SUV whose owners somehow got stuck in the median. There was even an incident I flew over any icey-patch simply by holding the wheel straight and watched in my rear-view mirror as a couple SUVs did a 360-degree dances down the highway. That said, I would never attempt going through mud and automatically avoid anything that would requires ground clearance. Unless you need the ground clearance, spend the money on good tires and don't worry.
If tshtf how much fuel will be available? For how long? How much can you store?
Dumping a bunch of $ into my vehicle is something I'd love to do but I don't think it makes as much sense as dumping $ into freeze dried food, batteries, ammo, nvg, weapons, seeds, tools, etc.
Worst thing ever would be to have a jeep with $5000 aftermarket parts and no gas. Thus a giant lawn ornament.
As to your original question: keep it. 4x4 is awesome, but debt is not . Replace it with 4x4 next time.
This is a huge factor in whether or not I can accomplish this, I have spent the last 10 years working my butt of to get to the point that I have no debt other than my house, so the thought of changing that is not very appealing.
Many of the points you guys are bringing up about both the 4x and 2x are great, and I am going to file those away for later use for sure. I am going to start beating the bushes locally to see what is out there in the form of options that might fit the bill, if it is not feasible to get into something reasonable, well then my decision might just be made for me.
Thanks again for the insight.
Nathan_Bell
12-26-11, 12:09
This is a huge factor in whether or not I can accomplish this, I have spent the last 10 years working my butt of to get to the point that I have no debt other than my house, so the thought of changing that is not very appealing.
Many of the points you guys are bringing up about both the 4x and 2x are great, and I am going to file those away for later use for sure. I am going to start beating the bushes locally to see what is out there in the form of options that might fit the bill, if it is not feasible to get into something reasonable, well then my decision might just be made for me.
Thanks again for the insight.
There are literally thousands of older used 4x4's out there that make more sense for disasters than a new one that you would go into real debt to buy.
Jeeps: Great if you are single or only need to bug in and then run errands around your home until the smoke clears. Kinda suck for a family trying to bug out in though as they are little vehicles when it push comes to shove.
K-5 Blazer/ OBS Ford Broncos: Almost as maneuverable off road as a Jeep and with room and carrying capacity to haul a small family's worth of chit out if bugging out is on your list of concerns.
Domestic Pickup trucks. Even more carrying capacity, but tend to lack in people hauling capabilities.
Big assed domestic SUVs: Suburbans, CarryAlls, Stone Aged Excursions. Room for a family, their chit, and plenty of additional chassis capacity (if you go 3/4 or 1 ton with the Suburban- the other two already are that heavy) One caveat with the Excursions, get a 7.3 engined one or swap in a Cummins the 6.0 sucks all kinds of donkey cock. Would have sold mine years ago, but I got it cheap and its paid for.
The reason these older vehicles are nice is that you can get a base one for the price of two nice AR's and then build them up a couple hundred bucks at a time. You can put engageable lockers in the axles, you can learn what tire pressure the truck needs to go the best, and you also learn how to fix the SOB's when they break.
There are other options that exist, but most require real debt or just stupid amount of out of pocket $$ for purchase cost. JM2C
The_War_Wagon
12-26-11, 14:03
I'm starting my tenth year of living in Pittsburgh, after having grown up in the piedmont of NC, and I can tell ya' - 4wd makes the locals drive WORSE in snow & ice.
I had a '95 Grand Marquis for 8+ years here. V-8, RWD, and I plowed through snow that made lesser drivers crap their pants and flip their 4x4's, and yes - I marveled at their INABILITY to drive in it the whole time. :eek:
Sandbags in your pickup bed will help hold your rear end down, but 4wd is a costly alternative to a good vehicle with low miles (my 16 year old Merc was starting to rust, it was nickel & diming me to death, had 120k miles on it, and I have 4 small kids now).
The main reason I got my Jeep Commander, was because of 7 passenger seating and small kids (you DON'T want to ride in that third row as an adult!). I still have places I need to be in winter weather, but that 5,179lb behemoth gets SUCKTACULAR gas mileage! The Mercury, on a BAD day, got 17mpg in the city. The Jeep, on a GOOD day, gets that on the highway! :eek:
My oldest crosses over to Boy Scouts in the spring, so we'll hit the trails and do a little camping with it soon, so it's nice in that regards. And I walk to work each day, so the 0 miles commuting helps. It can be an EXPENSIVE toy, however. Caveat emptor...
Wolf Spyder
12-26-11, 21:45
I live in central Ohio. For the most part it is flat farm land, that has been over populated with morons. The winters are mild compared to other places that get snow. When I travel, I drive. I have been all over this country, and more often than not, I'm driving a 4X4 Bronco or 4X4 Suburban.
Many of the comments above are accurate. Skintop911 said it best; "There is a difference between being a gun owner and a shooter. Likewise, there is a difference between being a vehicle owner and a driver." You need to know what your doing.
I really like what TX Rancher had to say;
If I read your post properly, you're asking about 4WD in case of a SHTF scenario. If you're plan during a SHTF incident is to vacate your current location and head for the hills then 4WD would be a good idea.
Without knowing in advance the reason for the SHTF it would be premature to assume the roads would be in good shape. What if the situation was flood, or earthquake? Roads may be unusable requiring you to go off-road to get around the bad spots.
Even if the roads are in acceptable shape, you may still be forced off road due to wrecks or broke down vehicles.
Local issues may exist where the main roads are blocked (gangs, LE, etc) forcing you to use secondary roads that may be in bad repair. The extra ground clearance of a 4X4 could come in handy.
I know others have said a 2WD with good tires can sometimes beat a 4X4 with bad tires. But I suspect they would agree a 4X4 with good tires would outperform the 2WD with good tires holding the skill of the driver equal in both cases.
As others have said there are downsides to using a 4X4 for everyday commutes, so if you don't need it in your normal life and your not that convinced a SHTF scenario is that high a probability in your life, don't waste your money on a 4X4.
In my life a 4X4 is a necessity. As a rancher I spend many hours off road in all kinds of weather so I run 4X4 with limited slip axles and still get stuck once or twice a year. That's when the wench or the 4X4 tractor comes in handy.
I've had workers who have gotten stuck on heavy dew grass with their 2WD on a slight incline (open differentials).
Whether you decide to get a 4X4 or stay with your present truck, go out and learn the limitations of your vehicle...find out what it can and can't do. Then in a SHTF situation you will know the limitations and better avoid demanding more than your system can provide.
Good luck whichever way you go!
I can not over state the need for a Limited Slip Differential or a Selectable Locker Differential. It is my opinion that an Open Differential is useless in a truck's rear axle to the point of almost being criminal. By the same token a fully Locking Differential should only be used in a vehicle that is off road only.
Nathan_Bell is correct; "There are literally thousands of older used 4x4's out there that make more sense for disasters than a new one that you would go into real debt to buy."
It is my opinion that Jeeps are over rated. As Nathan_Bell said they are great for the single guy to make short trips with, but there are much better options out there.
The Full Sized Ford Bronco is just as nimble off road and gets the same gas milage as the Jeeps do. However, the Bronco has more cargo room, greater seating capacity, better towing capacity, more engine power, stouter factory drive-line components, a larger fuel tank for longer distance driving, not to mention direct bolt on replacement parts from every F150 & F250 from 1980 to 1997. I have a couple Full Sized Ford Bronco's. I love them.
This is a very old picture of my '95 with 33x12.50's. It is a great truck.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/_MG_1549modifiedsmall.jpg
Find yourself an older used 4X4 and fix what is wrong with it when you find the time and the money. The older ones are much easier and cheaper to repair. Keep an eye open for a 4 door short bed pickup, a full sized Blazer, or a ful sized Bronco. Once it is dependable, begin to modify it into the truck you want it to be. In the end you will spend less money than if you run out and purchase a new 4X4 that comes complete with all the electro-do-dads and computer controled crap that takes a college degree to understand and repair.
This cell phone picture of my '95 is a little newer than the photo above.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG-20110607-00027.jpg
If you have a 2wd do the best you can. If given the opportunity get a real 4wd (something with true 4 low or locking differentials). I am on my third jeep. Started with a 1990 cherokee, had a 1998 grand cherokee and now a 2007 grand cherokee. I have crawled over my share of urban curbs(8+ inch concrete center dividers) when traffic has jammed up. I have crawled over dirt mounds used as barriers to keep out traffic. I have drove up and over(crawled up and crushed it down) a chain link fence in an emergency. I have wheeled on some unreal mountain trails in North Georgia and the Carolinas. I have driven through streams in Tennessee that would be difficult to walk through and would certainly sweep away most vehicles. I have driven on the beach sand from Florida to Long Island. I have dragged several cars out of snow drifts and slippery soft sholders near the street. I have even moved downed trees out of the roadway so I could pass. I am sure there is other useful stuff (like pulling shrubs out of my back yard) but my point is that if you have the right set up a 4wd will get you into and out of a lot of situations and places that I would not trust a 2wd. If SHTF and the highways are jammed up it will be the few true 4wds that will be doing the end arounds and crawling over the overpasses while everything else is stuck. No vehicle is invincible or without compromise but you will be more confident and have more options if you have 4 wheels grabbing the ground instead of one or two. I recommend some decent tires, some true skid plates (not the plastic factory ones) to protect your vitals and some recovery gear as mentioned above. If there is no gas, no car is any good 2 or 4wd.
The main reason I got my Jeep Commander, was because of 7 passenger seating and small kids (you DON'T want to ride in that third row as an adult!). I still have places I need to be in winter weather, but that 5,179lb behemoth gets SUCKTACULAR gas mileage! The Mercury, on a BAD day, got 17mpg in the city. The Jeep, on a GOOD day, gets that on the highway! :eek:
When I think of the Jeep Commander, I get a headache. What were they thinking...
Late model 4x4s typically have electronic traction control and stability control. These make lockers obsolete IMHO. Times they are a changing when your vehicle "knows" that the only wheel biting in is the front passenger side and thus sends more power there. Works as advertised in my jeep
P.s. hill descent control kicks ass
Nathan_Bell
12-27-11, 07:16
Late model 4x4s typically have electronic traction control and stability control. These make lockers obsolete IMHO. Times they are a changing when your vehicle "knows" that the only wheel biting in is the front passenger side and thus sends more power there. Works as advertised in my jeep
P.s. hill descent control kicks ass
When they work they are great, but when they quit working you have a vehicle with open diffs and a Christmas tree's worth of lights on the dash.
Lots of great feedback guys, I honestly did not expect this much of a response so thanks again, I like to get real world answers from un-biased no BS folks.
Going back to the points that folks brought up about "indian vs. arrow", I agree with this whole heartedly, but my thought process would be to start with the proper foundation to learn the basics on and work up from there. Kind of like the new shooter approach so to speak, just with 4x4's.
I think that I have decided to look into getting a a pre 1980's full size Blazer as a third vehicle. The thought process for this would be based on availibility of parts, cost, after market support, and they appear to be stupid simple with very few electronics to have to dick around with. Like many here I am sure, I grew up working on cars like this so at least I have some basics to start with.
Fuel is obviously a concern, but I am not looking for the long term, my primary motivation is still more geared towards evac from the general area should the need arise, which I believe everyone could agree is a possibility without having to go into any theoretical events. But extending fuel range is on the list no matter what vehicle is availible.
If anyone has an arguement against this approach, I am all ears and willing to learn.
This is still a preparedness forum the last time I checked. So assuming we are keeping with the overall subject of being prepared, 4X4 will be a better choice. No matter what additions you make to a 4X2, it still will not equal a 4X4 with the same additions. Period.
Fuel storage is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the titled topic.
This is still a preparedness forum the last time I checked. So assuming we are keeping with the overall subject of being prepared, 4X4 will be a better choice. No matter what additions you make to a 4X2, it still will not equal a 4X4 with the same additions. Period.
Fuel storage is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the titled topic.
Copy that, unintentional thread drift, my apologies.
Back to the topic; Do you feel that a the investment into a 4x4 is crucial to having a good overall plan towards preparedness? Or just a waste of money/effort if it is not needed on a regular basis?
Wolf Spyder
12-27-11, 18:30
Do you feel that a the investment into a 4x4 is crucial to having a good overall plan towards preparedness? Or just a waste of money/effort if it is not needed on a regular basis?
Well, that is a good question. I think a 4X4 should be part of the over all preparedness.
As an example; I carry a weapon of some form into the bathroom with me when I am going to spend any amount of time there. Most of the time I have my carry pistol. When folks find out I carry a weapon into the bathroom during my shower or while going #2, they laugh or present a look of disbelief. My half joking reply points out that in all of the horor flicks from the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's the villan always attacts people while they are in the shower.
My point is, bad things happen when we are least prepared for them to happen. So in a matter of speaking, it happens when we are naked... meaning unprepared. The world won't go to pieces while we are at home within arms reach of all our gear. If the S does ever HTF it will more than likely happen while we are away from our homes. I travel accordingly. My daily driver has always been and always will be a 4X4 of some form.
The_War_Wagon
12-27-11, 18:52
When I think of the Jeep Commander, I get a headache. What were they thinking...
I was thinking Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer... until I test drove the Commander. Sucky gas mileage notwithstanding, it's more stout than either of those two. Take it from a dyed-in-the-wool Ford/Mercury man!
Late model 4x4s typically have electronic traction control and stability control. These make lockers obsolete IMHO. Times they are a changing when your vehicle "knows" that the only wheel biting in is the front passenger side and thus sends more power there. Works as advertised in my jeep
P.s. hill descent control kicks ass
That same electronic stability and traction control nearly drove me off a cliff. After discovering that I entered a corner too fast, I tried to let it slide, then power through to stay on the road. The computer wasn't having that, took away my power, and tried to straighten me out.
I was thinking Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer... until I test drove the Commander. Sucky gas mileage notwithstanding, it's more stout than either of those two. Take it from a dyed-in-the-wool Ford/Mercury man!
I see a bunch of Exploders in fleet service. I'd take a Commander over an Exploder, too.
Do you feel that a the investment into a 4x4 is crucial to having a good overall plan towards preparedness? Or just a waste of money/effort if it is not needed on a regular basis?
I think every family/person should have at least one 4X4. If you only have one car and finances allow, I believe it should be a 4X4.
DeltaSierra
12-27-11, 22:24
I think that I have decided to look into getting a a pre 1980's full size Blazer as a third vehicle.
Take a look at what this guy has to offer:
http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySection/TrkCvrPage.html
These trucks are about as good as you will find, and he puts new purchases on the site all the time...
If you dont have much experience driving a 4x4 it will only get you stuck worse faster.
I hear this stuff repeated all the time and take it from someone who has driven on unimproved roads, across wet fields, on snowy roads, and even some light stream crossings, it's dead wrong.
if you're saying that without 4wd you wouldn't attempt those things then maybe you have a point. but the bigger point is that we don't always get to choose how or where we have to go.
I've gotten by on slippery roads pretty well in my Yukon with just Traction Control and ABS but for my long steep driveway in TN, the Jeep was the only vehicle that would make it all the way to the top when it snowed.
if 2wd was better than 4wd, then it would be a standard of those who go off road all the time...
if you're saying that without 4wd you wouldn't attempt those things then maybe you have a point. but the bigger point is that we don't always get to choose how or where we have to go.
Well said. Just like with guns, it's important to consider your intended application. Also, know your limitations. Too many people assume that 4WD will grant them the magic ability not to slide off an icy road.
When I lived up north, it was up a steep paved private drive that got plowed, but never got cinders. Basic Subaru AWD got up it just fine, as long as the snow was no deeper than my rocker panels. But, that car could get high centered on an anthill, and you can forget about deep mud.
If your intended operation involves actual off road travel, bushwhacking over rocks, logs and stream crossing, then by all means get yourself a real 4x4... but only if you're going to bother to learn to drive it.
DeltaSierra
12-28-11, 13:23
I hear this stuff repeated all the time and take it from someone who has driven on unimproved roads, across wet fields, on snowy roads, and even some light stream crossings, it's dead wrong.
if you're saying that without 4wd you wouldn't attempt those things then maybe you have a point. but the bigger point is that we don't always get to choose how or where we have to go.
I've gotten by on slippery roads pretty well in my Yukon with just Traction Control and ABS but for my long steep driveway in TN, the Jeep was the only vehicle that would make it all the way to the top when it snowed.
if 2wd was better than 4wd, then it would be a standard of those who go off road all the time...
As someone that lives way out in the middle of nowhere, and drives on really nasty roads, I have to agree with ryan. Unless you really know what you are doing, 4wd is the quickest way to get stuck.....
I prefer having the option of 4wd, but then again, I know how to drive properly with a 4wd vehicle.
4wd is over rated. The ONLY time that a vehicle should be in 4wd is if you are already stuck, and need to get out.
As someone that lives way out in the middle of nowhere, and drives on really nasty roads, I have to agree with ryan. Unless you really know what you are doing, 4wd is the quickest way to get stuck.....
I prefer having the option of 4wd, but then again, I know how to drive properly with a 4wd vehicle.
4wd is over rated. The ONLY time that a vehicle should be in 4wd is if you are already stuck, and need to get out.
I prefer to use 4wd to keep from getting stuck.
I also like it on slick snow.
In 55 years you're the first person I've ever heard say don't put it in 4wd until you're already stuck.
I say you're wrong.
I hear this stuff repeated all the time and take it from someone who has driven on unimproved roads, across wet fields, on snowy roads, and even some light stream crossings, it's dead wrong.
if you're saying that without 4wd you wouldn't attempt those things then maybe you have a point. but the bigger point is that we don't always get to choose how or where we have to go.
The latter part is true. Giving some folks 4wd makes them think they're invincible, and that the rules of traction, momentum, and surface composition, and physics are somehow suspended for them.
4wd is over rated. The ONLY time that a vehicle should be in 4wd is if you are already stuck, and need to get out.
In some trail and overland conditions, if you're not in 4 when it starts to get bad, you're too late.
Wolf Spyder
12-28-11, 17:13
As someone that lives way out in the middle of nowhere, and drives on really nasty roads, I have to agree with Ryan. Unless you really know what you are doing, 4WD is the quickest way to get stuck.....
I prefer having the option of 4WD, but then again, I know how to drive properly with a 4WD vehicle.
4WD is over rated. The ONLY time that a vehicle should be in 4WD is if you are already stuck, and need to get out.
DeltaSierra, you sir, are an idiot. Edited to add; (when it comes to operating a 4WD vehicle.)
When I need to drive off road, I will pull the 4-Hi lever before I get in the muddy stuff because controlled momentum is the key to keeping the rig moving and avoiding getting stuck in the first place. Once you loose your momentum and become stuck, you reach for the 4-Lo lever and try to crawl out of trouble. If this fails then you re-evaluate and apply the appropriate traction aid or vehicle recovery equipment. I am a Fire Fighter / EMT. I have been to driving school. I am a certified Emergency Vehicle Operator on everything from Heavy Rescues & Fire Engines all the way down to 4WD Medics & 4WD Grass Fighters.
DeltaSierra
12-28-11, 17:15
In some trail and overland conditions, if you're not in 4 when it starts to get bad, you're too late.
I think you would agree that in most conditions, driving around in 4wd is useless...
Many people think that if the road is slippery or snowy, just slip her into 4wd, and keep driving at 50 mph, therefore what I said....
Wolf Spyder,
I'm not an idiot, and I don't think that you need to resort to that level of response.
No, I don't have any wonderful credentials that allow me to climb on a rooftop to tell the world how much I know, but I do know this:
I have relatives that have been involved is serious, high-speed accidents because of a basic misunderstanding of the purpose of 4wd. It is not to prevent you from becoming stuck, it is not to help you stop faster etc. 4wd is one more tool in the box, so to speak, but it doesn't make you a better driver, or anything else.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but if you are going into mud, or deep snow, and traveling at a reduced rate of speed, that is a perfectly good time to engage the 4wd. My point was that if you are trying to maintain a high rate of speed (I would say somewhere above 25 mph, from my experience) the vehicle should not be in 4wd....
I'm interested in hearing any tips or suggestions that you would have, given your experience, but please refrain from needless insults, given that you didn't even understand what I was saying.
Thanks,
Delta
Wolf Spyder
12-28-11, 17:21
I think you would agree that in most conditions, driving around in 4WD is useless...
Many people think that if the road is slippery or snowy, just slip her into 4WD, and keep driving at 50 mph, therefore what I said....
I see we all three posted at the same time... At any rate, it has been said in this thread that the operator should know their own vehicle and what it is capable of doing. We also all understand that bad drivers will be bad drivers regardless of which vehicle type. We are focusing on 2WD vs. 4WD with a driver who understands the vehicle that they are operating.
I think you would agree that in most conditions, driving around in 4wd is useless...
Many people think that if the road is slippery or snowy, just slip her into 4wd, and keep driving at 50 mph, therefore what I said....
On that we agree.
Didnt read everyones posts so Im sure its probably been touched on.
But I'd say where you live is the biggest factor. Somewhere real rural with lots of fields, mud, etc...or anywhere that gets snow, especially large amounts of it - I'd say a 4x4 is a given. I've always owned 4x4 trucks but mine get put into 4wd quite often with the snow around here, and even sometimes just getting up/down dirt driveways.
Locking the rear of your current 2x4 would certainly help, of course you'd want to stick with selectable and that will run you around $1000.
The only real advantages I can see to a 2x4 over a 4x4 is sightly better gas mileage and slightly better towing capacity...although both of those are very small gains and negligible as far as Im concerned.
If you're actually concerned about having to "bug out" and really are preparing with that in mind, I say go see what the dealer will give you for your truck and maybe pick up the same model in 4x4 for a few grand more.
Good comments in this thread. 4WD certainly can get you stuck faster if you drive like an idiot. 2WD can go places you wouldn't expect, if you're skilled and/or lucky.
Honestly I think this is another case of the the Indian being more important than the arrow. Last time it snowed down here in Alabama, the roadside ditches were full of dumbasses in 4x4's.
This, times eleventy billion. Me and my friends can get POS 2WD rangers places that guys with well built Jeeps get themselves stuck all the time. Even prissy modern jeeps (like the grand cherokee) provide more off road capability than most of the older 4x4 rigs.
For me fuel efficiency is probably going to be worth more than the added capability, although my same stupid self is getting an AWD turbocharged car :sad:
Question for OEF vets:
What are the "jihadi special" Toyota Hilux trucks that afghanis drive around in? 4x4?
Those vehicles can take men almost anywhere, and take a shit ton of abuse doing it. Just some food for thought. Same could be said for the Land rover defender, Merc Benz G-Wagon, Hmmwv, Jeep J8, ect.
DeltaSierra
12-29-11, 18:56
Question for OEF vets:
What are the "jihadi special" Toyota Hilux trucks that afghanis drive around in? 4x4?
Those vehicles can take men almost anywhere, and take a shit ton of abuse doing it. Just some food for thought. Same could be said for the Land rover defender, Merc Benz G-Wagon, Hmmwv, Jeep J8, ect.
Some of the special operations guys are using Toyota Hilux 4wd trucks, others are using Toyota Tacomas. Not sure as to what the insurgents are using....
There was a thread on some of these trucks a while back....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35814&highlight=toyota+hilux
Use the ****ing search.
Copy that
Nathan_Bell
12-30-11, 05:46
This, times eleventy billion. Me and my friends can get POS 2WD rangers places that guys with well built Jeeps get themselves stuck all the time. Even prissy modern jeeps (like the grand cherokee) provide more off road capability than most of the older 4x4 rigs.
For me fuel efficiency is probably going to be worth more than the added capability, although my same stupid self is getting an AWD turbocharged car :sad:
..but they cannot do it reliably. We used to, for shits and grins, go offroading in Chevettes and Horizons/Omnis. On some days we could get back to some seriously stupid places, on others we couldn't make it past the first mud puddle. Fun? Hell yeah, educational, that too. Reliable? Heck no!
A good 2wd in skilled hands will do things that most folks cannot imagine, but that same skillset used in a properly setup 4wd will make most of those tricks look boring.
As this is a prep forum, I at least, assume that there will be enough "added excitement" due to stress and worry of bad things happening, that we want the driving to be relatively boring.
A properly kitted truck/suv should be in the top 5 things for concerned people to have. They are not cheap to do right, but there are great sources for what gear selection you want to consider when building on forums like "Expedition Portal".
Think about the level of research and learning you ahve put into you defensive arms, now why would you not do the same amount of research about another major piece of kit?
Counter steering or recovering the vehicle from loss of control is the only thing that is different when in 4wd. Driving down a snowy icy highway or a mud road when in 4wd is no different unless you loose control.
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