View Full Version : Eye problems and RDS
While driving the other day,I was thinking about different optics. Since I had a four hour drive, I had a lot of time to think. While I think it's universally accepted that if you're betting your life on your RDS, Aimpoint and Eotech are just about the only way to go right now. However, as has been documented, these sights may or may not work for someone with astigmatism or various other eye problems. My question is, would you recommend to someone with astigmatism or other eye problems to purchase a less expensive RDS sight, such as a Primary Arms sight, to try prior to purchasing an Aimpoint or Eotech? My reasoning behind this is that he will be able to find out if an RDS will work for him. If it does, he can go out and buy an Aimpoint or Eotech if he would like and be assured that it will work for him. If it doesn't work for him, he's only out $100.00 or $150.00 instead of $400.00-$600.00 and knows to look for something other than an RDS for short range defense.
A couple of things; first, this is not an Aimpoint vs Eotech vs everyone else thread. That has been done and talked about numerous times and this thread is not really meant for that. I'm really looking to see if my reasoning is sound or if, for some reason, it's not; such as different technologies etc. I'm interested to see what all of you think.
Someone can always return an optic if they don't like it. Better yet they can probably check one out at their local gun shop.
Resale value is pretty high, so even if one decides to sell after a year or two there shouldn't be too much of a loss.
For what my advice is worth; I too have an astigmatism in both eyes and have really bad near-sighted vision and I don't have problems with the aimpoint reticle on its lower settings. Granted I have prescription eyeglasses that are suppose to correct the astigmatism and my vision. When I crank up to the brighter settings, I have trouble seeing the reticle by itself. Other than that, I can see the reticle fine, but on the lower settings. As far as the Eotech reticle, it looks sharp to me, but the lines themselves are grainy if that makes sense (my friends 55X series Eotech). I don't know if that is how it is supposed to look though.
I purchased the Aimpoint PRO from Grant last February and it was my first RDS and I don't regret the purchase. I would at least try to go to a gun shop and look through them. Otherwise, I would recommend to go with an a higher-end model. As a college student, I managed to save up enough to get one and the price of the others is half way there, but in the end, the decision is solely on you as it is your money.
On a side note, do you have eyeglasses that correct the astigmatism?
I also have astigmatism, and I did exactly what you are asking- I bought a Primary Arms M3 to see if I'd like the aimpoint. The "bloom" bothered me at first, but that was mostly looking through it indoors, where it's at it's worst, IMO.
Once you get outdoors and start shooting it completely goes away. Atleast for me it did. Afterwards I went ahead and put the PA M3 on my MP-22, which serves as an awesome plinking gun.
Hope this helps.
Tom
For what my advice is worth; I too have an astigmatism in both eyes and have really bad near-sighted vision and I don't have problems with the aimpoint reticle on its lower settings. Granted I have prescription eyeglasses that are suppose to correct the astigmatism and my vision. When I crank up to the brighter settings, I have trouble seeing the reticle by itself. Other than that, I can see the reticle fine, but on the lower settings. As far as the Eotech reticle, it looks sharp to me, but the lines themselves are grainy if that makes sense (my friends 55X series Eotech). I don't know if that is how it is supposed to look though.
I purchased the Aimpoint PRO from Grant last February and it was my first RDS and I don't regret the purchase. I would at least try to go to a gun shop and look through them. Otherwise, I would recommend to go with an a higher-end model. As a college student, I managed to save up enough to get one and the price of the others is half way there, but in the end, the decision is solely on you as it is your money.
On a side note, do you have eyeglasses that correct the astigmatism?
Yes I do, well contact lenses to be specific.
The thought actually originated from reading multiple threads where someone had spent a fairly large amount of money for an optic that didn't work for them and then they had it. As suggested above you can return or sell it, but that's a hassle to be honest. The gun shop idea is the one that makes the most sense, but not everyone lives close to a gun store and going to see one can be a day long trip. So with those two things in mind, the thought came to mind that you could try one and not be out $600.00 or have the hassle of trying to sell or return it. As I said, I had a long drive and lots of time to think. :)
I also have astigmatism, and I did exactly what you are asking- I bought a Primary Arms M3 to see if I'd like the aimpoint. The "bloom" bothered me at first, but that was mostly looking through it indoors, where it's at it's worst, IMO.
Once you get outdoors and start shooting it completely goes away. Atleast for me it did. Afterwards I went ahead and put the PA M3 on my MP-22, which serves as an awesome plinking gun.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Yes it does. Thank you. If I can ask, what if you shoot it indoors under low light conditions? Does it bother you then? Also, did you end up buying an Aimpoint or Eotech as well?
I also have a astigmatism in both eyes uncorrected. I bough Aimpoints and sold them before even trying them at the range. (yes I know not smart) I found a deal so good on a Comp M4s I had to buy it. Took it to the range and now I'm getting an H-1 for my 9mm SBR. Yes it looks like a star but a 2MOA "star" leaves a lot of room on a 8" target at 30 yards. A lot of room. As long as your using it for 100 yards or less on a 12" target or bigger you will be just fine I would guess but buying a $100.00 red dot is not a bad idea like you said. Truth is though as was stated, you can buy an Aimpoint and it you don't like it sell it and lose less on it than you would selling the $100.00 red dot. Palmetto State Armory has Aimpoint H-1's on sale right now for $449.00 with a flat top mount. Can't beat that.. http://palmettostatearmory.com/9081.php
Failure2Stop
12-28-11, 01:00
If your application is 200 meters or less with 75% of that at 100 meters or less, I recommend an Aimpoint, especially if it is going to pull HD duty. Even the worst appearing dot is fully usable at those distances.
The Micros are great for size and weight, but I find that the larger tube models have a "cleaner" dot to my repeatedly scratched and scarred eyes.
I have some astigmatism in both eyes (more so in the right) and I'm doing Ok so far with an Aimpoint.
I have a slight astigmatism but I can get by with red dots if I turn down the brightness a bit. I don’t have it as bad as some have reported. I did notice that the problem is much less using my trijicon tri power and ACOG. If someone has a problem and simply can’t use a RDS then they should take a look at a tri power or a low magnification ACOG.
If you really want to just try a cheapo RDS, Get a BSA for under $30.
You can always put it on a rimfire gun later. or toss it in a drawer or something.
The gun shop idea is the one that makes the most sense, ..........................
And finding a M4C member who is willing to let you try their's at the range makes even more sense. You could post a query and see what happens. Your location doesn't show in your profile, but, for example, if you were in central Texas I could let let you try my H-1 at the range.
SomeOtherGuy
12-28-11, 08:49
Finding a way to try one out is the best advice. I seem to have an astigmatism because any RDS, including several different Aimpoints, looks like an amoeba to me in most lighting conditions. I'm keeping an H1 and a Strikefire for certain applications but moving away from RDS on most of my guns, either to conventional optics (including an ACOG and a 1-4x) or to just irons, which work well for me. YMMV and this is not universal advice, but I think there are some people for whom the RDS just does not work well, including me.
I have a slight uncorrected astigmatism in my dominant eye and I have found that I prefer the 2 MOA size dots (Comp ML3) for more precise shooting, but the 4 MOA H1s work just fine.
If you care, you can get some very precise shooting in if you put the focused part of the dot at the same place every time. For example, my astig. causes me to have a decently focused dot with a tail trailing upwards to the right. If I consistently align the focused part of the dot to whatever target I'm looking at, I can manage some good sized groups.
The Micros are great for size and weight, but I find that the larger tube models have a "cleaner" dot to my repeatedly scratched and scarred eyes.
Have you found any difference between the 2 MOA dots versus the 4 MOA dots in the longer tubes?
Any experience shooting with the Aimpoint Killflash? I received one when I purchased my CompML3 from the EE and found that it cleans up the dot a bit when I tried it indoors. However, I never tried shooting with it because I thought that shooting through the honeycomb pattern would drive me nuts.
In theory, the Killflash should reduce the effects of astigmatism because of the pinhole effect.
EDIT: Disregard the info on the Killflash, it's flat out wrong.
Great responses. Thank you everyone. Exactly why I came here to ask the question. The Killflash looks interesting.
militarymoron
12-28-11, 12:40
the killflash doesn't do anything as it's not between the eye and the dot. for the pinhole effect to work, the pinhole has to be between the eye and what you're looking at.
flipping up the rear sight and looking through the small aperture at the dot is the best way to get a nice, defined dot if you have bad eyesight or astigmatism (i have both). i zero/sight in my RDS while looking through the rear sight, then flip it down under normal use. for what i use it for, i have not detected any difference in POI.
as F2S said, even a bad dot will 'work' depending on the distance you're using it at. just place the dot/star/amoeba on the target.
the killflash doesn't do anything as it's not between the eye and the dot. for the pinhole effect to work, the pinhole has to be between the eye and what you're looking at.
flipping up the rear sight and looking through the small aperture at the dot is the best way to get a nice, defined dot if you have bad eyesight or astigmatism (i have both). i zero/sight in my RDS while looking through the rear sight, then flip it down under normal use. for what i use it for, i have not detected any difference in POI.
as F2S said, even a bad dot will 'work' depending on the distance you're using it at. just place the dot/star/amoeba on the target.
My mistake! Brain fart on the dot being behind the Killflash.
I only tried the Killflash briefly indoors (6 months ago), and I thought it cleaned up the dot a bit. However my astig. isn't very bad so it could have been a minor artifactual difference not attributable to the pinhole effect at all. I need to go dig my Killflash out and reverify what the heck I saw.
Yes it does. Thank you. If I can ask, what if you shoot it indoors under low light conditions? Does it bother you then? Also, did you end up buying an Aimpoint or Eotech as well?
I have limited range time shooting indoors, so i can't help very much, sorry.
To answer your second question, I ended up buying Aimpoints: an H1 and an M4.
Ok, my apologies for posting f'ed up info in this thread. The Killflash does nothing to clean up the dot. I must not have been paying much attention when I was messing around with it. Was too excited to play with the CompML3.
In fact, I tried playing with the Killflash as a pinhole, between the RDS and the eye, and it does a pretty lousy job of it.
Folks have pretty much covered all the ground here.
I would just add one more observation -- depending on your eyesight, you can't necessary draw conclusions from one red dot sight to another, even from the same manufacturer. For example, my eyes perceive my trusty old Aimpoint Comp M2 OK, but the T-1 is a smeared comet. My Eotechs sometimes streak. With a magnifier behind them, they get worse.
So IME, the best bet is to get behind the specific models that you're considering to see how they look to you.
Failure2Stop
12-29-11, 11:34
Have you found any difference between the 2 MOA dots versus the 4 MOA dots in the longer tubes?
Not that I remember, but I haven't shot a 4 moa dot in a 30mm tube for about 7 years.
I have a slight stig but my eye doctor says I don't.... I can't use an EOTech at all at any useful setting. It is just a great big blur. Aimpoints I can dial back a setting or 2 and get a good usable dot. This is why I went with the adjustable RMR sight on my Glock.
RogerinTPA
12-29-11, 19:56
For me (and I'm pushing 50), the smaller the 'dot", the clearer it is, in relation to the sight picture, and the faster and more precise shot I can get off. It's probably why I gravitated to the EOTechs first, because of the 1 MOA dot. I do have the M4S and a couple of H-1s. The EOTechs are faster for me regardless of distance, even though there is some refraction/pixilation of the outer ring (even with prescription glasses). Then followed by the M4S, slight blooming (blurred/smeared star shape) of the 2 MOA dot, and finally the H-1s, which blooms quite a bit unless I dial it down.
I have a slight stig but my eye doctor says I don't.... I can't use an EOTech at all at any useful setting. It is just a great big blur. Aimpoints I can dial back a setting or 2 and get a good usable dot. This is why I went with the adjustable RMR sight on my Glock.
This is a good point, the Trijicon RMRs were clearer than Aimpoints or Eotechs ... at least for me. But APs and Eos are still usable for me.
If your application is 200 meters or less with 75% of that at 100 meters or less, I recommend an Aimpoint, especially if it is going to pull HD duty. Even the worst appearing dot is fully usable at those distances.
The Micros are great for size and weight, but I find that the larger tube models have a "cleaner" dot to my repeatedly scratched and scarred eyes.
I have an astigmatism and find it less of a factor with the M3/M4 than I do with the T1...however, even with the T1 I don't find it to be an issue inside 200 meters. Really only seems to come into play when I'm trying for precision hits at longer ranges.
-Rainman
Just wanted to come back and thank you all for your responses. Extremely helpful. I did get a chance to check out an Eotech and an Aimpoint Comp ML2 today. The Eotech was cleaner for me as the center dot was perfectly clear and the circle was looked like it was a ring of fire, but still very usable. The Aimpoint would also be usable, but the dot looks like a comma to my eyes. Thanks again for your help.
Years ago when my stigmatization (and/or age issues) wasn't as pronounced I found the 2 MOA Aimpoint worked better than a 4 MOA version - for longer shots (200 & 300 meters). Right now a 3.5 MOA dot in a Micro Aimpoint works much better *for me* at 200M. I have to crank the power up too high on the 2 MOA dot for good visibility on a dark target - which results in excessive flaring. The 2 MOA is near useless at 200 meters these days in harsh bright sun. Either is still fine to 100 Yds and closer, btw. IMO, bigger has always been better (i.e., faster) at room distance or so.
You won't know what works for you till you get it to the range in varying conditions. Best guess is go with a 3.5 Micro or 4 MOA Comp for the HD/short range gun and use a magnified optic for a rifle intended for precision or longer range.
Buying quality has always proven it's worth (to me) with anything related to firearms and optics.
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