View Full Version : 300blk vs. 6.8spc for hunting
Either my search-fu is weak or thereare no definitive answers here
I love the accracy of my 6.8....do the heavier bullets available for the 300 really get me anywhere for hunting???
lwrkeysfisher
12-29-11, 21:40
No. The 6.8 shoots flatter and has better terminal performance across the board, the .300 is a step down in hunting performance.
To be fair the .300 has its advantages over the 6.8 (price, noise, compatible mags/bolt), but hunting performance is not one of them.
Depends on the range.
Does 300 get you anything MORE than your current 6.8? unless you are in a juristiction that requires a 30 cal bullet for hunting particular game, than no, not really.
the main benefits of the 300 BLK show up when you are either converting a 5.56 gun, or building a new one, and the 5.56 parts commonality helps with costs, etc.
High Tower
12-30-11, 07:54
Both rounds have been proven in the field. To me, the 6.8 does not have that much more performance over the .300 to justify a separate set of mags, bolts, etc. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
With the current load offerings for the .300 and with the new loads planned for next year, I think the .300 will have a great deal more variety to choose from to suit your needs.
lwrkeysfisher
12-30-11, 08:39
If you're concerned about the 6.8's ability to kill then look here: http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?17900-2011-Hunting-photo-s-thread/page18
There are three/four years of hunting threads on there and it seems the results have only improved.
But to each their own---some people pimp out Civics others buy Mustangs. ...
I don't think 300 BLK is better than 6.8 for hunting, but it is very good for hunting - and the practice ammo is way cheaper. With a 200 yard zero, the drop is 3.5 inches at 237 yards - so you could have one zero and shoot to 237 yards with no sight adjustment.
rsilvers the above link goes to the UMC ammo. Do you know where the Barnes TTSX ammo is available? Thanks in advance.
The PinkTip ammo is good for hunting.
I don't think 300 BLK is better than 6.8 for hunting, but it is very good for hunting - and the practice ammo is way cheaper. With a 200 yard zero, the drop is 3.5 inches at 237 yards - so you could have one zero and shoot to 237 yards with no sight adjustment.
Since you brought it up, what is the near zero? I can't imagine it's the standard 50/200 zero as it is with 5.56.
On a related note, if I ever get around to hog hunting, this will be my cartridge of choice. All of the compatibility issues with the 6.8 and the expense of ammo killed its appeal for me.
Right now, a 6.8 user on AR15 just said that 6.8 has a 500-600 yard range but 300 BLK is 150-200 yards. The difference is not that great. In fact, rather than the 3x he says, it is actually 1.1x.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/556417_6_8_VS_300_Blackout.html&page=6
If you are target shooting out to 500-600 yards, either will do it [6.8 or 6.5G]. Past that, a real nice set up with a 20-24 inch Grendel is great if you want to stay with a 5.56 platform. The .300 BLK isn't even in the same ballpark with either the 6.8 or the 6.5G with supersonic loads. It is a 150-200 yard gun at best.
There are several ways to calculate range - energy, max point blank, hit probability, or distance at which the bullet will function.
Let's work out a specific example.
SSA Sierra Pro Hunter 110 in 6.8:
Max point blank range - 265 yards.
Energy at 600 yards - 340 ft-lbs.
Drop at 600 - 130 inches (200 yard zero)
Remington 115 grain UMC - 300 BLK:
Max point blank range - 241 yards.
Distance at which energy is 340 ft-lbs - 550 yards.
Distance at which drop is 130 inches - 560 yards.
So for max point blank range, 6.8 is 1.1x 300 BLK.
For energy at distance, 6.8 also has 1.1x the range.
For distance to known drop, 6.8 has 1.07x the range.
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 08:30
Of course when you compare the best to the worst there won't be much difference.
How about doing a real comparison, using minimum expansion velocity. The best hunting bullet for each---95gr TTSX vs 110gr TSX. Then caveat it with the .300 barnes bullet is vaporware or only currently available in the 7.62X40. Also, are you claiming the UMC bullet is suitable for hunting, or is this going to lead to more people bragging about their kills that they had to finish off with a .45. I've seen several such mentions of needing to finish game on a couple forums now? I'll link them when I'm back on a computer, but I am sure you've seen them as well.
No, the UMC is not for hunting. I don't have BC data for the Barnes.
How long do you think the 'vaporware' argument will last when there are already 20,000 rounds loaded sitting waiting for the boxes before they ship?
As for doing a real comparison - just get me 95 TSX data for 6.8 when loaded to SAAMI pressures of 55,000 psi. I am not going to compare an above-SAAMI pressure 6.8 to a SAAMI pressure 300 BLK. Or would you like me to load up some 300 BLK to above-SAAMI pressure for the comparison?
That is one big problem with 6.8 comparisons - the 6.8 people want to use +P data for the basis of the comparison.
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 08:37
How long do you think the 'vaporwear' argument will last when there are already 20,000 rounds loaded sitting waiting for the boxes before it ships?
Street price?
That is one big problem with 6.8 comparisons - the 6.8 people want to use +P data for the basis of the comparison.
I don't think this is the case at all.
From my perspective, I want to see a comparison of the best performing factory loads from each caliber. I think the 12-18" penetration with the largest cavity is the correct criteria to use for "best performing" as well.
I don't think this is the case at all.
It is. I just gave an example in SSA loaded to SAAMI specs and was told I picked "the worst" load. It is just a normal load. I could have picked a load from Hornady also, and he would have said I picked the worst load.
If people want to load 300 BLK to +P pressures as well, no one is stopping them. I will only do comparisons of loads made to within normal pressures (55,000 psi).
It is. I just gave an example in SSA loaded to SAAMI specs and was told I picked "the worst" load. It is just a normal load. I could have picked a load from Hornady also, and he would have said I picked the worst load.
We are all victims of our frame of reference. Of course you see it the way that you do, you're the 300BLK guy.
I have no allegiance to either team, and I posted the comparison that I want to see. I see your insistence on it being a SAMI load as no different than what you claim the other side is doing by insisting on a "+P" load.
As a consumer, the only limitation I want to see on the comparison is commercial availability of loaded ammunition. I would even grant the "vaporware" load(s) in 300BLK for the sake of argument.
We are all victims of our frame of reference. Of course you see it the way that you do, you're the 300BLK guy.
I see it that way be cause I know that Remington and Hornady pressure test with proper instrumentation. No one has ever showed me that Hornady does not load 6.8 ammo as fast as possible. I can look around for a Hornady example - just remember - 6.8 velocities are normally from 24 inch barrels. So I need to find Hornady data from a 16 inch barrel.
I see it that way be cause I know that Remington and Hornady pressure test with proper instrumentation. No one has ever showed me that Hornady does not load 6.8 ammo as fast as possible. I can look around for a Hornady example - just remember - 6.8 velocities are normally from 24 inch barrels. So I need to find Hornady data from a 16 inch barrel.
Across the board it seems that information is hard to come by for apples:apples comparisons. This is something I personally find extremely surprising and frustrating, again as a consumer and, perhaps more importantly, a SHOOTER. It is extremely hard to weed through the guy that fires 200 yards a year from the bench when it comes to any sort of valuable information on these subjects on the internet.
Maybe it's a potential article for me in the future. Not sure that level of minutia is my forte though. At least even if I did it all ****ed up it might inspire someone else to do it "right" just to prove me wrong.
I found 16 inch Hornady velocity:
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail0b05.html?id=72&sID=151&pID=2
2540 fps.
They don't have a BC value for 6.8 velocities, so I can't run the complete example like I could with the Sierra bullet.
Across the board it seems that information is hard to come by for apples:apples comparisons.
Just compare data only from companies that load to SAAMI standards.
Just compare data only from companies that load to SAAMI standards.
I see that as an artificial limitation designed to boost the likelihood of the 300 doing well in the comparison.
Are all of these loads loaded to SAAMI standards?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19884
I see that as an artificial limitation designed to boost the likelihood of the 300 doing well in the comparison
Why do you think it is ok to compare industry-standard 55,000 psi 300 BLK ammo to 6.8 ammo which may be 63,000 psi? How is that an apples/apples comparison?
Are all of these loads loaded to SAAMI standards?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19884
Most of those seem to be bullets, not loads. But the one which is a load - yes, that seems ok.
SSA 2nd generation 115 gr SMK OTM w/cannelure, 5 shot averages:
16” barrel: ave vel = 2525 fps
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 09:32
Why do you think it is ok to compare industry-standard 55,000 psi 300 BLK ammo to 6.8 ammo which may be 63,000 psi? How is that an apples/apples comparison?
I carry +p (sometimes +p+ ammo when I carry my full-size 9mm). So do you think it's not okay to compare +p to other pistol loads?
BTW: Silver State loads to 58,000 with it 'Tac Loads' (says it on their website) WC's loads appear very similar.
Also all manufacturers except Remington list their 6.8 loads from a 16" barrel.
I carry +p (sometimes +p+ ammo when I carry my full-size 9mm). So do you think it's not okay to compare +p to other pistol loads?
For 9mm, there is a SAAMI cartridge called "9mm Luger +P." That means everyone who makes that stays under the pressure limit it is listed as. So one can use 9mm +P, and still compare apples to apples.
There is no +P standard for 40 S&W, or for 6.8. That means companies who make ammo over pressure can each do so by as much as they are willing to risk, rather than to a fixed amount. So even if comparing 40 S&W loads, I would not include any listed as +P.
One can hotrod 300 BLK also - I had 110 grain up past 2600 fps in a 20 inch barrel - but I don't use that for comparisons.
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 15:04
One can hotrod 300 BLK also - I had 110 grain up past 2600 fps in a 20 inch barrel - but I don't use that for comparisons.
So a 'hotrod' .300 from a 20" barrel is comparable to a standard factory loaded 6.8 from a 16" barrel---got it. What do you think the pressure was, 68,000 PSI? Certainly not 58,000?
And, are you saying that SSA and WC ammo is unsafe because no SAAMI member companies have petitioned to create a 6.8+p? Or just that since your round is artificially limited theirs should be too?
High Tower
01-01-12, 16:07
OK, you drank the 6.8 juice and refuse to admit there may be other options out there. We get it.
But your last few replies are starting to get childish.
I understood where Silvers was going the FIRST time he said it. Having him repeat it 1800 different ways from Sunday is getting old. I keep seeing this thread come up with new replies and I think there may be something of interest, but no...
Oh my God..get over it already...
And, are you saying that SSA and WC ammo is unsafe because no SAAMI member companies have petitioned to create a 6.8+p
6.8SPC to Remington (IMO) is the red headed step child that they just want to forget about & hope will go away. The problem is even without their support the cartridge continues to thrive with improved chambers & ammo that preforms.
Remington 1st tried to kill off the 6.8 with the 30 Remington AR & when that didn't work then came along the 300AAC.
If Remington put half the effort into the 6.8 that they are putting to the 300AAC (Revised SAAMI spec & promised loads of ammo) the 6.8 would be even more popular than it is now.
I believe it would be a cold day in hell before Remington revises the SAAMI spec for the 6.8! To do that might have other(firearm & ammo)manufactures get into the 6.8 and that's not in the best interest of Remington now that the 300AAC is their new pet project.
I love my 6.8's (Noveske/WOA/ARP) and run hot ammo from SSA & WC without any issues,but for the lack of affordable ammo.
This is where the 300AAC comes in:supposedly low cost factory ammo(when & for how long) & factory subsonic
My problem with the 300AAC is the ammo that I can find local(when available & almost never)is at the same cost as the 6.8
The 300AAC is fun to shoot(subsonic & suppressed)but on par to the cost of the 6.8 unless you reload.
Both rounds have their place but if you are looking for a hunting round, IMO, the 6.8 is it!
For suppressed/SBR & short range/unauthorized hunting:300AAC
SomeOtherGuy
01-01-12, 20:00
6.8SPC to Remington (IMO) is the red headed step child that they just want to forget about & hope will go away. The problem is even without their support the cartridge continues to thrive with improved chambers & ammo that preforms.
Remington 1st tried to kill off the 6.8 with the 30 Remington AR & when that didn't work then came along the 300AAC.
Why on earth would Remington want to "kill off the 6.8"??? Aren't they in business to make money? Doesn't selling ammo make them money? Did you notice that they are one of only three companies (Hornady and SSA being the other two) that offer and sell any significant amount of 6.8 SPC ammo? That's an enviable market position. (Oh yes, Cor-Bon and Sellier & Belloit apparently offer some 6.8 SPC - tell me annual sales for their 6.8 offerings before we talk about significant. And they aren't any less expensive than the other three options.)
If Remington put half the effort into the 6.8 that they are putting to the 300AAC (Revised SAAMI spec & promised loads of ammo) the 6.8 would be even more popular than it is now.
I haven't noticed that Remington has put any effort into marketing 300BLK. What I've seen is that Rsilvers has put enormous effort and has had the resources of AAC to back him, with incidentally some availability of other "Freedom Group" resources, namely Remington ammo. If Remington was putting huge efforts into this cartridge the cheap ammo would have been out a year ago instead of two weeks ago.
My problem with the 300AAC is the ammo that I can find local(when available & almost never)is at the same cost as the 6.8
The 300AAC is fun to shoot(subsonic & suppressed)but on par to the cost of the 6.8 unless you reload.
I have a couple hundred rounds of the 300BLK UMC ammo that I got for $13/20 shipped. Not vaporware, something sitting in my basement ready to use. I've never, ever seen 6.8 SPC for less than $16/20 and I've been looking for years - and that was a clearance sale at a single online seller.
Both rounds have their place but if you are looking for a hunting round, IMO, the 6.8 is it!
For suppressed/SBR & short range/unauthorized hunting:300AAC
Oh, "short range/unauthorized hunting" use? Can you explain that in any way that is not a cheap shot slam at the cartridge?
And, are you saying that SSA and WC ammo is unsafe because no SAAMI member companies have petitioned to create a 6.8+p? Or just that since your round is artificially limited theirs should be too?
I am saying that they don't adhere to any industry standard and I don't like including them any more than I do handloads. But, people want to know - so I will include the hot 85 grain T-TSX load in my chart.
If Remington put half the effort into the 6.8 that they are putting to the 300AAC (Revised SAAMI spec & promised loads of ammo) the 6.8 would be even more popular than it is now.
I believe it would be a cold day in hell before Remington revises the SAAMI spec for the 6.8! To do that might have other(firearm & ammo)manufactures get into the 6.8 and that's not in the best interest of Remington now that the 300AAC is their new pet project.
Is it really worth revising for the 30 fps difference in the two chambers?
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 21:03
I am saying that they don't adhere to any industry standard and I don't like including them any more than I do handloads. But, people want to know - so I will include the hot 85 grain T-TSX load in my chart.
That's a start, what about the 95gr? WC lists them at 2850 from a 16" barrel, same with SSA.
And for they record I do not dislike the .300Blk, in fact I was very interested in buying one. I just think the marketing hype from the guerilla campaign has overstepped reality, so at times I interject. I also dislike the hate/misinformation campaign silvers started against the 6.8 and 6.8 forums in May/June, which is part of what turned me off of the .300 or any AAC/FG product for that matter. Any company that takes to bashing another product to promote their own is not a company I wish to buy from---you may feel different.
As an aside, because of market equilibrium it is foolish to think the .300 is bad for the 6.8. Right now prices for the 6.8 are high because demand is high. If competition starts to erode the demand base it will force suppliers to reduce prices. There is plenty of room to reduce margins with the 6.8, so as sales slow (if they do) manufacturers will reduce prices until it becomes competitive and increases demand (resulting in iterative changes to find the most profit). Reducing output doesn't make sense unless the same machines could be used to make something different with higer margins. Since the margins on the 6.8 are likely significantly higher than anything else I think prices will come down quite a bit before switching becomes an option. On the other hand significant growth in the 6.8 without additional capacity will likely drive prices higher.
In other words competition is good for the consumer. Though none of this has any impact on which one provides better terminal ballistics---and the answer to that is definitive even when the best is compared to the worst. As I said earlier Mustang vs pimped Civic.
That load is also 2.290 and does not work in all magazines. If it works in your setup, then sure - great for hunting. But it is not a good comparison of one cartridges capabilities to another because it is trick ammo. Even if 6.8 SPC-II ammo became a SAAMI standard. Even if (and I don't think this would happen) the pressure were raised to 60,000 psi - even then - the max length would never be changed to 2.290. It would be too unreliable in too many magazines for general purpose use.
By the way, it is 2750 fps from SSA.
lwrkeysfisher
01-01-12, 21:56
....because it is trick ammo.
Sure has tricked a bunch of hogs and deer. All the guys on the 6.8 forum better go check their freezers and make sure they're all still there.
This is a hunting thread, right? The slap round any good for hunting? Nevermind...
You can load even longer if you single feed.
Here it is with the 6.5G and the 95 TSX added:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9789/maxpbr.png
That's a start, what about the 95gr? WC lists them at 2850 from a 16" barrel, same with SSA.
And for they record I do not dislike the .300Blk, in fact I was very interested in buying one. I just think the marketing hype from the guerilla campaign has overstepped reality, so at times I interject. I also dislike the hate/misinformation campaign silvers started against the 6.8 and 6.8 forums in May/June, which is part of what turned me off of the .300 or any AAC/FG product for that matter. Any company that takes to bashing another product to promote their own is not a company I wish to buy from---you may feel different.
As an aside, because of market equilibrium it is foolish to think the .300 is bad for the 6.8. Right now prices for the 6.8 are high because demand is high. If competition starts to erode the demand base it will force suppliers to reduce prices. There is plenty of room to reduce margins with the 6.8, so as sales slow (if they do) manufacturers will reduce prices until it becomes competitive and increases demand (resulting in iterative changes to find the most profit). Reducing output doesn't make sense unless the same machines could be used to make something different with higer margins. Since the margins on the 6.8 are likely significantly higher than anything else I think prices will come down quite a bit before switching becomes an option. On the other hand significant growth in the 6.8 without additional capacity will likely drive prices higher.
In other words competition is good for the consumer. Though none of this has any impact on which one provides better terminal ballistics---and the answer to that is definitive even when the best is compared to the worst. As I said earlier Mustang vs pimped Civic.
I don't see this as a gorilla marketing campaign at all and I don't seem to recall them "bashing" the 6.8 or any other round. As for 6.8 being more expensive because of demand...wow...it's economy of scale. Supply and demand would only kick in if they couldn't keep up with demand and I am sure that is not the case.
signing off this silly discussion.
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 08:54
Oh my God..get over it already...
OMG!
I don't see this as a gorilla marketing campaign at all and I don't seem to recall them "bashing" the 6.8 or any other round. As for 6.8 being more expensive because of demand...wow...it's economy of scale. Supply and demand would only kick in if they couldn't keep up with demand and I am sure that is not the case.
signing off this silly discussion.
It's one thing to be a fanboy, it's another to be a fanboi without a clue. I really suggest you broaden your understanding of Economics before doing any additional analysis.
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 09:33
You can load even longer if you single feed.
Here it is with the 6.5G and the 95 TSX added:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9789/maxpbr.png
Thank you for adding in the 95ttsx, even with the disclaimer.
I still find it interesting that you did not include any hunting bullets for the .300, for a hunting thread and all. However, since you did provide energy numbers and not bullet performance parameters, do you think energy is more important than bullet performance in hunting?
Also, in a couple months all new magazines on the market should allow for loading to 2.295. But single loading does open a whole new world for the 6.8 in the same way it does .223. Not really my cup of tea, but to each their own.
However, since you did provide energy numbers and not bullet performance parameters, do you think energy is more important than bullet performance in hunting?
I'm curious about this topic as well. I'm interested in knowing how energy relates to wound cavity and penetration, or if there is not a 1:1 and it's possible to have two bullets with the same energy with one providing a larger wound cavity and better penetration than the other due entirely to bullet design (or other factors?)?
Energy is just the potential to do work. It is then up to the bullet designer to take advantage of that energy to control expansion and penetration.
I made this chart to combat people saying the round was "weak." It is not. The potential to do work is there, provided the bullet design is good. Good bullet designs exist with plenty more coming.
The two best hunting bullets for the 300 BLK are PinkTip and AccuTip. Out of those, the AccuTip is the best ammo - it has waterproof case mouths and other features such as each round was chamber-gauged.
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 09:58
Energy is just the potential to do work. It is then up to the bullet designer to take advantage of that energy to control expansion and penetration.
I made this chart to combat people saying the round was "weak." It is not. The potential to do work is there, provided the bullet design is good. Good bullet designs exist with plenty more coming.
The two best hunting bullets for the 300 BLK are PinkTip and AccuTip. Out of those, the AccuTip is the best ammo - it has waterproof case mouths and other features such as each round was chamber-gauged.
When the T-TSX ammo comes out, that will probably be the best bullet.
Just curious, why didn't you include this ammo in the chart?
Why on earth would Remington want to "kill off the 6.8"??? Aren't they in business to make money? Doesn't selling ammo make them money? Did you notice that they are one of only three companies (Hornady and SSA being the other two) that offer and sell any significant amount of 6.8 SPC ammo? That's an enviable market position. (Oh yes, Cor-Bon and Sellier & Belloit apparently offer some 6.8 SPC - tell me annual sales for their 6.8 offerings before we talk about significant. And they aren't any less expensive than the other three options.)
Why would they want to kill it off? I would guess when it 1st hit the market there were issues with overpressure due to the chamber spec/barrels/ammo. Here is a link with some background on the 6.8
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/?p=3
Remington killed off their last firearm chambered in 6.8 a few years ago/ their 6.8 ammo is also the worst shooting for accuracy in all of my 6.8's.
As far as annual sales goes, by crystal ball is broken
I haven't noticed that Remington has put any effort into marketing 300BLK. What I've seen is that Rsilvers has put enormous effort and has had the resources of AAC to back him, with incidentally some availability of other "Freedom Group" resources, namely Remington ammo. If Remington was putting huge efforts into this cartridge the cheap ammo would have been out a year ago instead of two weeks ago.
I commend his efforts. He probably has to fight the bean counters & the attorneys of the Umbrella Corporation uh, I meant the Freedom Group every step of the way.
I have a couple hundred rounds of the 300BLK UMC ammo that I got for $13/20 shipped. Not vaporware, something sitting in my basement ready to use. I've never, ever seen 6.8 SPC for less than $16/20 and I've been looking for years - and that was a clearance sale at a single online seller.
Not all of us buy online & it seems that the local dealer who is selling the AAC uppers would be able to get the ammo . It goes out the door as fast as it comes in to those with the uppers.
As far as their prices, I now have moved to looking online & have my email on the waiting list like everyone else for more to arrive.
Oh, "short range/unauthorized hunting" use? Can you explain that in any way that is not a cheap shot slam at the cartridge?
Most guys in the NE who for years have been into the 300Whisper & now in it's SAMMI chambering the 300AAC have used it for hunting/varmint/pest control in areas where gunfire would bring undesired attention.
Not a cheap shop by any means! It does what it was designed to do & has for 20+ years, It now has a new name with some dimensional changes & corporate support. That in my book is a winner.
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9789/maxpbr.png
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 10:40
Thank you. This is real progress.
Both of the 6.8 rounds listed are designed in a manner that will allow them to expand at their MPBR (and beyond). Which of the .300BLK rounds listed will?
Thank you. This is real progress.
Both of the 6.8 rounds listed are designed in a manner that will allow them to expand at their MPBR (and beyond). Which of the .300BLK rounds listed will?
I think this is the next logical question as well.
The Match is just a Sierra MK, and will not expand. The AccuTip was based on the bullet from the 30 AR AccuTip, but the jacket was thinned out so that it would expand at the lower velocity of 300 BLK out to a good distance.
The 450 Bushmaster looks good for a dedicated hunting rifle, as the lower mag capacity does not matter for hunting. If all you wanted to do was shoot pigs out to 200 yards, I can't think of anything better.
By the way, the BCs for 300 BLK were gathered from 300 BLK rifles - so they are accurate for the velocity range.
BCs are higher for higher velocities, and so I am uncertain about some others. We don't know, for example, if they were measured from a 6.5 Creedmore or 270.
For the 300 BLK subsonic is that from a 9" barrel? What is the near intersection and far intersection? From MPBR that means it doesn't rise above 2.5" over LOS, yes? so the maximum ordinate is +2.5" and the MPBR is where it drops to -2.5" below LOS?
Subsonic is 1010 fps from a 16 inch barrel, and 965 fps from a 9 inch barrel. You can get the 9 inch barrel to be 1010 fps with more powder, as the chamber pressure is less than 30,000 psi.
Yes, the bullet never goes more than 2.5 inches above or below the line of sight.
For the 9 inch, it is 15 yards/88 yards.
For the 16 inch, it is 16 yards/93 yards.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/314317_239137422799387_203519439694519_690817_57929820_n.jpg
Subsonic is 1010 fps from a 16 inch barrel, and 965 fps from a 9 inch barrel. You can get the 9 inch barrel to be 1010 fps with more powder, as the chamber pressure is less than 30,000 psi.
Yes, the bullet never goes more than 2.5 inches above or below the line of sight.
For the 9 inch, it is 15 yards/88 yards.
For the 16 inch, it is 16 yards/93 yards.
Good info, thanks. That helps a lot.
Guys, I just want to hunt and shoot at distances beyond 300 meters with greater terminal performance. I am sorry that this thread devolved into a pissing match.
Personally, I am not really attached to any cartridge and not been attached or a "fan boy" as some may call it in years. I will pick up and weapon in any cartridge that I can find suitable amounts of ammo at a reasonable price. I love to shoot, but I a Soldier, and that means that I need to shoot in order to possibly survive on the battlefield.
Again, I apologize for this thread. I was looking for technical answers, not a pissing match.
Signed,
Joseph
For over 300 meters, I would say you want a Larue PredatAR.
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 11:57
The 450 Bushmaster looks good for a dedicated hunting rifle, as the lower mag capacity does not matter for hunting. If all you wanted to do was shoot pigs out to 200 yards, I can't think of anything better.
I had a 450B, and while it was a blast to shoot, follow-up shots were non-existent---it kicked like a shotgun not an AR. I sold it with just 100 or so rounds through it. On a side note during my first enlistment we used the .499 to shoot engines out of go-fasts. It didn't last long, we switched to 12GA slugs.
One more factory round that would be helpful on the chart is the 6.8 Hornady 120SST. Just to show there is a range of options... I show MPBR of 259yds and 923ft lbs of energy at 300. Using the Ballistic IPhone app.
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 12:05
For over 300 meters, I would say you want a Larue PredatAR.
This is something we can agree on.
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9789/maxpbr.png
Tell me about the 12 gauge vs the 499 - what did everyone not like about the 499?
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 12:17
I'm not sure really, I was pretty junior at the time. I remember one day we were testing/using the .499 and the next we had moved on.
For over 600 meters, I would say you want a Larue PredatAR.
FIFY ;)
lwrkeysfisher
01-02-12, 13:00
FIFY ;)
Nice :).
I don't think 300 BLK is better than 6.8 for hunting, but it is very good for hunting...
This was the 4th or 5th post... apparently some people need their dicks stroked a little harder in the future...
rsilvers, thanks for all the great info, making this thread worthwhile. When the 300BLK was likened to a Civic and the 6.8 to a Mustang (a ****ing ludicrous analogy), I thought it would turn to complete shit for sure.
Maybe the BLK is a Ford Raptor:
http://shockcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ford-raptor-price-1.jpg
Not as fast as a sports car, but can do many things.
rsilvers, thanks for all the great info, making this thread worthwhile. When the 300BLK was likened to a Civic and the 6.8 to a Mustang (a ****ing ludicrous analogy), I thought it would turn to complete shit for sure.
The only thing sillier than these analogies is getting upset by them. Well, that and commenting on the thread, the discussion, or the posters instead of the topic at hand.
I do agree with your initial sentiment, however, and that is that Robert has provided helpful information in the thread. The fact that he has conceded that the 300 BLK is not the cure-all for everything indicates that he is more open minded than perhaps some of the (often non-owning, and even more often non-shooting-in-any-valuable-quantity) fans of the caliber.
I have over 1600 rounds of 300BLK down the pipe (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPsdFVkb0g4ei13MUg3SHdMUkxrTHF0MWc&hl=en_US#gid=0). Most of that was suppressed. I hope to shoot more, especially with the new loads coming out. I would like to finish my article on the caliber and get paid by my publisher. Personally, I *WANT* to like the caliber, but I'm still struggling with whether or not I have a personal need, hence my questions of Robert in the thread. I am also interested in the limitations of the caliber, again hence the questions. In spite of this, just today in another thread on this very site I suggested the caliber to a member here because the requirements he outlined seemed perfectly suited to it to me.
The only thing sillier than these analogies is getting upset by them. Well, that and commenting on the thread, the discussion, or the posters instead of the topic at hand.
I wasn't upset and my comments had nothing to do with your posts, and yet you chastise me for doing exactly what you just did (as quoted above). For the record, I agree that the 6.8 nudges the 300BLK for hunting applications, generally speaking, but I've enjoyed success killing some sizeable hogs out to 200 yards with both calibers. :)
The 300 really begins to shine when you go SBR and/or suppressed. Are you planning on paying for either of those pricey options just for hunting? For me it wasn't worth those costs when I could have a cartridge with superior terminal performance in 6.8.
The parts commonality thing I get but I like two dedicated rifles/uppers for different calibers. I don't want to have to constantly worry about keeping my bolts separated, distinctly marking them, or checking head space to be sure. MP testing has been brought up on 6.8 bolts and whether it matters or not. If it does matter to you, I believe Daniel Defense MP tests theirs so I went with them.
A lot of hunters reload and I wouldn't want to take the chance out of error of the OAL of the 300 round being the right length such that it would chamber in a 5.56. This was brought up and may have been put to bed so I apologize if I'm ignorant on this point.
Finally, decent hunting ammo is going to cost a premium no matter if it's 6.8, 300 BLK, .270, .308, or 30-06. Cheaper plinking ammo is nice but I have that with 5.56. If you don't reload, spent 6.8 brass can be easily sold for a premium bringing your cost per round down significantly.
I've been a strong proponent (probably rabidly so at times) of the 6.8 and various vendors without doing my research. Some are of the belief that if parts fit, shoot, and kill they're fine. I now choose to stick with larger manufacturers that are known for repeatedly producing high quality in-spec parts. YMMV.
300 BLK or 6.8 will both do fine for hunting, this is just my logic, flawed as it may be. My next upper may be 300 BLK but I'll never fully quit 6.8 especially since cheaper 300 ammo should inevitably drive 6.8 ammo costs down.
Subsonic is 1010 fps from a 16 inch barrel, and 965 fps from a 9 inch barrel. You can get the 9 inch barrel to be 1010 fps with more powder, as the chamber pressure is less than 30,000 psi.
Yes, the bullet never goes more than 2.5 inches above or below the line of sight.
For the 9 inch, it is 15 yards/88 yards.
For the 16 inch, it is 16 yards/93 yards.
Out of curiosity, is there a way to know without shooting where that would place a 125 grain projectile with no sight adjustment? In other words, if I zero with subs at 15/88 and then shoot 125s at 100 (for a nice round number) where will they print relative to LOS? What about at 50? 25? 5?
There should be about a 14 inch difference at 100 yards. It is not a factor for me as I have almost no interest in shooting subsonic. 300 BLK, for me, is simply the best way to shoot 30 caliber from an AR15. Making the sound go from about 135 dB with a can to 128 dB with a can - I will just take the full power ammo. There are people who want subsonic, but it is a side benefit, not the main reason to use the cartridge.
There should be about a 14 inch difference at 100 yards. It is not a factor for me as I have almost no interest in shooting subsonic. 300 BLK, for me, is simply the best way to shoot 30 caliber from an AR15. Making the sound go from about 135 dB with a can to 128 dB with a can - I will just take the full power ammo. There are people who want subsonic, but it is a side benefit, not the main reason to use the cartridge.
I guess this brings up an interesting question then, as the lead on this...
what would be your ideal 300 BLK setup? barrel length, can, and optic and what ammo would you use and at what distance would you zero, and what MPBR would that give you?
I have been following this thread from the beginning. Having been an early experimenter with alternate calibers in the AR15 platform since the late 70's I find them always intriguing. I had one of the earliest 6mm-.223 barrels way back when, and had shot a few deer with it. Sold that barrel many years ago at a gunshow in Tucson. Sometimes I wished I would have kept it since it was a sweet all around cartridge for my use at the time.
Having been interested in both the 6.8 and 300 conversions and reading as much as I can I think the 30 caliber has the edge as far as getting reloading components easier. Comparing loads with similar SAAMI specs is definitley the fairest to both cartridges, at least for a starting point. A good reloader can normally work up a load that fits his particular mission and would be able to use either one with efficiency.
rsilvers, thanks for the time you have spent on the 300 and your willingness to try and put forth an honest evaluation.
WW
I don't think someone gets the entire picture if you only use a SAAMI 6.8 chamber unless you put another star below the chart and model it with SPCII.
Even though the 6.8 SPCII chamber isn't SAAMI, this is the equivalent of using the 300 Whisper in the comparison.
Fortunately for the 300 BLK, they had the chance to improve that chamber to allow faster ammo and have the SAAMI stamp of approval.
You shouldn't shoot BLK ammo in a Whisper just like you shouldn't shoot 6.8 tactical loads in a SAAMI chamber. The first 6.8 SAAMI chamber was flawed.
http://www.ssarmory.com/ballistics.aspx
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