View Full Version : Snowshoes... your experiences?
I had not snowshoed in 30+ years till a few days ago. I've got my eye on a nice pair at REI made by MSR but they are $300 so they sit on the shelf waiting and mocking me yet.
I did however find a craigslist add for some GI magnesium shoes and bindings in new condition for $39 so I picked them up.
We finally got some snow last night and I headed up into the canyon this afternoon for a brief test and evaluation/cardio trip.
carried my pack which weighs in at 25#, my hogleg, overwhites, gaiters, trek poles, and shoes. with my fat ass coming in at near 200#, lets figure a nice round 235# as equipped. elevation estimated 6200ft, temp was 25 degrees maybe.
it does take some doing to get them damn milspec binders adjusted straight and tight, but they did alright for the trip which was only about 45min. As I would discover later they were not installed correctly.
I went up a draw following someone elses pre-cut trail, which is way easier. once I set off blazing trail of my own, I was sinking 12-14" into the snow depending on conditions. the shoes have a tendancy to slide when side hilling or going up or down hill, so the poles became very important as did setting the shoes to get purchase. at one point going down, I stumbled and ended up on my knees over my shoes facing downhill. there was no way I could have gotten back up with the depth of the snow without the poles to help. In deep snow I think poles are a must, rifle or not.
In any event I probably wont get rid of these as they do seem to work after a fashion and are useful as a back-up pair and for the price represent a fine gear purchase in my book.
These MSR lightning ascent 30's are what I want... http://www.rei.com/product/825002/msr-lightning-ascent-30-snowshoes-mens
what I hope to get from those is
-better grip from sliding on the ice
-better ability to grip the pocket of snow under the shoe with the vertical rim and foot crampons
-better floatation (with the optional 5" flotation tails they would be bomber!)
-heel riser helps foot stress while climbing as it levels your foot
-the satisfaction that I bought the most expensive shoes I could find then rarely use them just to spite myself.
What are you experiences with your snowshoes? can you provide a comparison between different types?
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couple of resources for the military snowshoe and some military testing of shoes
testing: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA318339 (summation is that the newer styleshoes and the military mag shoes required less energy use than the bear paw type)
manual: http://www.bethnchris.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2011/01/Snow-Shoes.pdf
After ****ing with these bindings I will say that NONE of the pictures i found has it right.
Here are some pics of how I think it should be done and what just seems to make the most sense.
options are to move the outside straps in a hole or two to get a different tightness/fit. the downside to moving from the outermost holes is that the strap doesnt move thru the hole as well when adjusting. I'll have to test it a bit more tomorrow.
http://imageshack.us/g/252/s
Step one: thread the strap
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/660/snowshoebindings001.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/snowshoebindings001.jpg/)
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Step two: Insert strap into tightener correctly
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8701/snowshoebindings002.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/snowshoebindings002.jpg/)
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step three: secure the strap after adjustment
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5293/snowshoebindings003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/snowshoebindings003.jpg/)
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Overall picture of completed strap installation
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6445/snowshoebindings004.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/snowshoebindings004.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
there you go!! the hardest easy thing I've done in a while!
DeltaSierra
01-01-12, 14:40
For work, I have had to be on snowshoes all day, every day for weeks at a time.
From that experience, I gained quite a bit of knowledge on the subject....
There are only two types of shoes that I will use - Tubbs aluminum framed shoes, or high quality rawhide shoes.
My favorite shoe would have to be a rawhide bearpaw with a Howe binding made by Armand Boutin of northern Vermont.
I find that the rawhide shoes are much quieter than the aluminum/plastic shoes, and the bindings on the aluminum shoes are not the best choice for long hikes, as they tend to break (I went through three or four shoes last winter, as either the bindings would break, or the webbing would let go) or they simply loosen up by themselves, and at some point the shoe slips off your boot...
I've never had the chance to use the Magnesium shoes, but from what experience I do have, I must say that I highly doubt that they would hold up under my use.
When you are looking at shoes, it is also important to figure out what type of snow you will be hiking in. Powder? Thick crust? Packed ice? Very steep terrain? If you are primarily going to be on packed surfaces, I'd want something with more traction than a standard rawhide shoe.
what kind of snow do you work in and what type of activity are you doing? longer range treking type stuff or more tromping around in a smaller area?
Do you do much sidehilling? what works for that?
I have very limited experience snow shoeing but I did not care for it. I found cross country skis much faster and easier to use.
DeltaSierra
01-01-12, 17:20
what kind of snow do you work in and what type of activity are you doing? longer range treking type stuff or more tromping around in a smaller area?
Do you do much sidehilling? what works for that?
I (used) to work for a maple sugaring operation, so my job was to check the lines that are strung through the woods to carry the sap from the trees to the bulk tanks to make sure that there were no leaks or animal damage, and generally carried a backpack/toolbelt with some tools that I needed, as well as food and water.
The activity level was steady walking, dawn 'till dusk (with a short break for lunch) in mostly unbroken snow. I've been in everything from powder, to thick concrete-like snow. Fortunately I didn't have to do much on pack/ice but I've done just enough of that to know that is not what I want to do no matter what...
etc
Side hills are pretty bad any way you cut it. There is no snow shoe that will be better on side hills in my opinion, but rather the person wearing the shoes that will make it better or worse.
DeltaSierra
01-01-12, 17:24
I have very limited experience snow shoeing but I did not care for it. I found cross country skis much faster and easier to use.
Skiing simply doesn't work in the deep forest, especially when you have to travel uphill as much as you travel downhill, or if you have to carry much equipment with you.
DS, check out this design of shoe http://www.rei.com/product/825002/msr-lightning-ascent-30-snowshoes-mens
It has really good grip and field reports are saying that it sidehills and grips really well.
I went out again today for a bit and tried some really steep down hill sections and got a decent technique, but it's slow and deliberate.
I also have been looking at ski's of various types. of particular interest is the Alpine Touring and Nordic types. lotta money for a set tho and a lot of technique involved either way you slice it. could be faster in a lot of areas tho.
DeltaSierra
01-01-12, 19:07
DS, check out this design of shoe http://www.rei.com/product/825002/msr-lightning-ascent-30-snowshoes-mens
I haven't used that particular brand of shoe, but here are my first off impressions...
The bindings are not going to hold up to hard use, in fact, I highly doubt that they would hold up for serious recreational use either. That style of binding breaks quite frequently, due to the type of rubber/plastic that is used. I don't know why, but they can't seem to figure out how to make a non-leather binding that actually works well, and will hold up under strain...
I personally wouldn't want the bottom of the frame to stick out below the webbing, as in deep snow or brush the sharp edge of that frame will catch on all sorts of stuff, and will end up tripping you up more than anything.
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It would be good if you could describe the area that you intend to snowshoe in, as that will make a big difference in what shoe you will want to get. If you are in brushy or forested areas, you will want a bearpaw design, but if you are in plains, and relatively open/flat areas, a good alaskan style shoe (with the "tail" in the back) would be much better.
Since you seem to be concerned with sidehilling, I would suggest that you go out and play around with the shoes that you have.
I think that you will find that the aggressive "bite" of those particular shoes is not needed, unless you are going to be using them for a very specific application (of which I am still not sure what that would be...
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Probably the first really in depth review of the MSR ascent shoes I've seen. worth a read if anyone is interested in a decent shoe...
http://4alloutdoors.org/reviews/footwear-2/msr-lightning-assent-snowshoes/
I had the MSR Denali Ascent two years ago and then "upgraded" to the MSR Lightning Ascent last year. After two Winter 14'ers here in CO, I sold the pair of Lightning Ascent 30's and am searching for a pair of the Denali Ascents like I sold :(
I found that the Lightning Ascent contributed significantly to upper leg fatigue as they are a good bit heavier than the Denali's I'd previously had. The Lightnings might be great for some people, but they weren't comfortable for me.
looks like the Evo kind took over for the Denali
I have a set of the MSR Denali's as well. I tried the lightnings and for the terrain we have in Utah here, the Denali's with 6" tails seemed to be the best for my use.
I will also say I have put well over 100 miles on them through countless days up and down the Wasatch Front and have had zero failures with the binding system. I ordered a repair kit and keep it on hand, but no issues what so ever.
Cascade Designs offers Pro Deal accounts if you work in some type of outdoors/ police/ fire/ ems/ government job. It brings the lightnings down from $300 MSRP to around $200.
DeltaSierra
01-02-12, 22:33
I will also say I have put well over 100 miles on them through countless days up and down the Wasatch Front and have had zero failures with the binding system.
The rubber/plastic bindings simply don't hold up with use (no, 100 miles isn't even broken in yet...)
the new MSR style bindings have been getting very positive reviews overall with users loving them or at least not hating them.
Is it possible that they did a good job on them and perhaps decrying all polymeric or "rubber/plastic" bindings out of hand is a bit premature?
DeltaSierra, can you provide a link to the the binding you like? I didn't have any google luck.
I use Sherpa snow shoes that are about 20-30 years old. They've held up well. Sherpa went out of business years ago. http://www.irl.bc.ca/Forestry%20Supplies/snowshoes-2.htm is now making a successor. I understand they're a bit heavier than the original, but the design is sound. I was never thrilled with their standard binding, but I was able to find a Prater binding (no longer made) that I've used for maybe 15 years. The standard binding system was simple, but I could never get it to stay tight on my foot. I've heard that the IRL binding is an improved version which works better but I've not had my hands on one. It looks to have fewer open hooks for the straps to pop out of. I'd say look at IRL, but consider the binding issue carefully. When my bindings eventuall fail, I don't know if I'll go with the modified IRL binding, or go with a Tubbs shoe.
I'm 6'2", 180-185 pounds and I use a 36" shoe. The alleged maneuverability of smaller shoes is a minimal advantage at best and in deep snow, you really pay a price if you go too small. My use is back country in the Sierras.
I've never liked the MSRs. The basic shoes are too small for me and adding the floatation tails puts all the extra lift to the rear and pitches me forward. I hate their rubber binding straps. They always make my feet cold by squeezing my boots tightly. The heel lifts can be handy though when climbing steep stuff. On SAR assignments, the guys with MSRs have a lot more trouble than I do in fresh, deep snow. The shoes are generally smaller and they sink deeper.
Many current shoes are influenced by the snow shoe running community, or shoeing on groomed trails. These shoes usually have a binding which lifts the heel as you step, thus keeping the tail of the shoe from dragging and making for a more natural stride. This sucks in the back country, or going up hill. With a fully pivoting binding, the front of the shoe lifts and the heel stays low when you lift your foot so the front of the shoe clears the snow. A running oriented binding will tip the front of the shoe down and bury it in the snow or hill. This is a really big deal when it's deep and steep. Also look for a shoe with a pretty good upward curve at the front unless you're use will be on trail.
Look for a shoe with some sort of heel crampon in addition to the forward crampon, or with some sort of integral traction behind the center of your foot. If the only crampon is under the ball of your foot, steep downhills can be most entertaining if you lean back into the hill and depressure the crampon.
Also see http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Snow%20Gear/Snowshoes/Tubbs%20Mountaineer%20Snowshoes/Test%20Report%20by%20David%20Baxter/ for a review of Tubbs Mountaineer snowshoes. It will give you more ideas about things to consider. That site has a lot of good gear reviews, BTW.
The rubber/plastic bindings simply don't hold up with use (no, 100 miles isn't even broken in yet...)
Very well, when did yours fail so I know? I figured it was some pretty good use myself.
If I must snowshow I like the MSR lightnings. My work bought me a pair and they are pretty sweet. I think they pair I have are a bit on the small side for my size but so far they have been bearable. But truth be known I'd really prefer to ski. The right AT setup and the skills to use it is a thing of beauty! Guys if you are still using a set of Tubbs or Sherpa or other snowshoes of that type do yourselves a favor and try a more modern design. They are light-years better than what you are using. I grew up on Sherpa and I hated snowshoeing for a long long time! Tried the MSR's for the first time this year and, well, I still would rather ski! But the MSR lightnings make plodding along on snowshoes infinitely better!
If I must snowshow I like the MSR lightnings. My work bought me a pair and they are pretty sweet. I think they pair I have are a bit on the small side for my size but so far they have been bearable. But truth be known I'd really prefer to ski. The right AT setup and the skills to use it is a thing of beauty! Guys if you are still using a set of Tubbs or Sherpa or other snowshoes of that type do yourselves a favor and try a more modern design. They are light-years better than what you are using. I grew up on Sherpa and I hated snowshoeing for a long long time! Tried the MSR's for the first time this year and, well, I still would rather ski! But the MSR lightnings make plodding along on snowshoes infinitely better!
How do you compare floatation and gait and effort with the lightenings and something like what I am using... a little more old school design with the tail and full pivot?
what I am reading is that it's pretty standard to sink down about a foot in loose snow using a appropriately sized snowshoe. does that sound about right to you guys?
DeltaSierra
01-03-12, 17:23
Very well, when did yours fail so I know? I figured it was some pretty good use myself.
I didn't keep track of miles (no point in doing so at the time,) but I went through three or four shoes last winter...
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As far as the bindings that I like, I don't know if the company (Boutin Snowshoes) has a website as they are quite small. Armand Boutin makes some of the best snowshoes that I am aware of, and he also is the only person that I know of that makes the Howe binding as well.
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Light years ahead of Tubbs? Nope... Tubbs is the only aluminum shoe that we could get tolerable performance with, and even so their shoes are not something that I would brag about (the bindings being the main complaint.)
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Is it possible that they did a good job on them and perhaps decrying all polymeric or "rubber/plastic" bindings out of hand is a bit premature?
Go ahead and waste your money if you like, but for hard use, they will not hold up, and when you do break them, you won't be able to repair them as easily as you can repair a leather binding.
The fact is that any plastic/rubber binding is not going to hold up as well with use, nor will they hold your boot as securely as a good leather binding.
DS,
could you provide a link to the shoes you like? I cant seem to come up with even any pics of them much less a site.
Here's my dilemma. I live in Montana and we dont really have much flat terrain here. it's either up or down or sidehill, and snow varies from super deep powder to super crusty ice snow and everything in between. often several types at a time.
dont get upset if we all dont run out and buy leather bound traditional bearpaw style shoes. hell, even the Indians had 4-5 different kinds depending on what type of snow they encountered. the bearpaws were great for tromping around in a tight area, but required more energy to use than other styles according to .mil testing.
as of now I'm stuck with GI nylon bindings and magnesium shoes, that seem to be working OK thus far, but need more testing. I'll look at any shoe that can give me a decided advantage over what I'm using now, and from what I'm seeing they need to have the following traits to be worth spending the cash on for me:
-more flotation
-lighter
-easier to put on and take off
-better grip on ice and hard-pack
-better ability to climb, decend and traverse/sidehill
-at least as durable as the GI Magnesiums
-dont require more energy to use
these wont be everyday shoes and probably wont get 100miles a year on them. I do understand that ease of maintenance in the field from natural materials can be a pretty powerful tool so I'll have to think outside the box if that is needed.
I've got a fair amount of all of the snowshoes mentioned thus far. My schoolhouse still issues NATO's to the students and instructors have been using Denali's or Lightnings for a number of years. Here's some thoughts about them:
NATO's are awesome for heavyweights and afford much float. If you want to tune them up, cut off the tail after the last weld and bolt on some angle aluminum teeth on the bottom for crampons. The bindings can be a pain, but there are a couple of tricks, one of which is to have a loop of 550 cord on the toe strap that you feed the ankle strap into...locally it's called a mystery loop. It helps some with keeping the bindings tight and happy. I can take pics of some of the mods next week during a class. Another mod some have done is bolt on the bindings from broken denali's. Solid rig.
The Denali family of shoes are a lot of give and take. The older bindings and straps are prone to breakage, newer gen straps are MUCH better. They offer less float than NATO, even with the longer tails attached. They are noisy, but some don't mind. Another positive note, they pack well on a ruck for just in case occasions. Traction is also a high point.
The lightnings are a nice rig. Über traction, quiet, and a fair amount of float. I've used them with two different binding systems with great luck. They also pack well on a ruck.
If you commonly go through lots do deep powder, I'd stick with mod'ed NATOs or Atlas Trailbazer 36". If you can find a pair of wood framed bear paws or trappers, those would be good too.
I'm going out again tomorrow after a decent snow yesterday. the GI magnesiums seem to be working ok and I have the bindings figured out I guess as they have not been giving much grief.
I also found that snowshoes are going on sale now for end of season so I ordered a pair of the Ascent 30's at $100 discount. pretty excited to compare them side by side. Might have to do one shoe on one foot and the other on the other.
Tortuga,
I'd like to see some of the nato shoe mods. I think I get what your saying and think that would work great. Why cut the tail tho?
Oh, almost forgot... Heres a place where shoes are on discount right now... http://www.orssnowshoesdirect.com/
Tortuga,
I'd like to see some of the nato shoe mods. I think I get what your saying and think that would work great. Why cut the tail tho?
http://www.orssnowshoesdirect.com/
I'll take some picks of the various mods next weekend while we have a class going. The reason for cutting the tail is to make them a little more compact with no noticable loss in tracking and those leftover chunks of leftover magnesium are awesome to shave for firestarter! They seem to work much better than mag blocks. I don't know if it has to do with the long grain or what.
Yup, that's the one good thing about a mild winter...end of the season discounts. You may want to see if you can find a deal on the detachable tails. I find they help a lot when you're humping 50# of ruck around a mountain.
yeah they got the tails on sale too, but I was gonna hold off to see if I needed them. was looking at around 210-245# loaded weight.
Was kinda concerned that the tails on the 30's might throw the balance a bit forward?
Here's some pics I grabbed this past class:
**Note the "mystery loop". A 550 cord loop on the toe strap that you feed the ankle strap through. Holds the whole thing together better.**
Also note the aluminum crampons bolted to the bottom.
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/Tortuga71/IMGP0092.jpg
**Here's a set of bindings off of some broken MSR Denalis. Cuts down on the lateral movement and great crampon traction.**
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/Tortuga71/IMGP0097.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/Tortuga71/IMGP0098.jpg
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/Tortuga71/IMGP0102.jpg
wow, those are pretty slick. I would have put the crampons more to the outside of the shoe myself.
I have the latest greatest MSR with heal lifter and all. My friends that are serious snow shoers tell me that there is no one perfect version, but you match the correct shoe to fit the snow and you plus load weight. I often wish I had some huge Tubb or Atlas tube style in soft pillowy deep snow, but I really use them to get into ice climbing areas and the MSR with the aggressive toothed frame and heel lifters are really ideal for my purposes. If I were going camping and pulling a sled and carrying a bigger pack (or kid as my friend does on his back:p) I would get the Atlas or Tubbs largest size I could.
wow, those are pretty slick. I would have put the crampons more to the outside of the shoe myself.
You're limited by the pivot points of the bindings.
I'm sure it's possible, but then you're adding more material which is weight and keeping away from KISS principles.
I have a set of first gen MSR Denali's (worked for REI and did product testing for several companies in a previous life). I prefer them for day trips and light over nights in all conditions except super deep powder. The extensions you can add are ok, and I have never had them fail, but just never warmed up to them. I prefer the bindings on the MSR's over the Tubbs or Redfeather but like others have said, it is personal. Never had them come loose or fail.
I am digging those GI snowshoes. Might have to find a pair to play around with.
well, as the sales were happening and I found the super shoes I was looking for I purchased the MSR Lightning Ascent 30's and the 5" extention tails to meet my load requirements and then some. got the shoes on sale for $100 off retail a month ago. Yaaay!
FINALLY got some decent snow today. about 6-8" in the valley so I headed for the hills in search of some virgin snow exceeding 2' deep. found a nice patch and strapped on the new shoes and headed up the hill. first thing I noticed is that it felt like I was spiderman with those things. the crampon design really gripped well. the bindings are easy enough to use with gloves and held firmly allowing great yawing of the shoe to make corners and turns. went up thru a patch of snow then down and switched shoes to the .mil's. I thne went up the same hill in a different track in the same snow to see how they compared.
result. New spidey shoes held like glue and were easier to maneuver and felt more secure in up and down hill. I felt that the .mil's had slightly better floatation as the bearing surface is all under the foot. however in deep snow the .mil shoe sunk to almost the same depth and in heavy wet snow they MSR's were easier to pull back out and shed snow.
so on flat ground the .mil doesnt give up anything to the MSR shoe. the indian design is still sound and works great. The MSR shoe really grips well tho and as far as floatation goes, compared side by side it has almost the same with the tails as the .mil shoe. for hilly territory and areas where maneuvering and grip is a primary concern the MSR wins hands down.
SO... Bang for the buck category. I paid $250 for the MSR shoes and $39 for the .mil shoes. IF one were to bolt some cramp-on teeth to the .mil shoe it might side hill better. I dont feel that a person who just wants to go romp around a field or flat ground would see any advantage to the MSR shoe over the .mil shoe, so I'm gonna give it to the .mil here. it's a great design and THE shoe to beat.
I dont feel like I lost out on the MSR at all tho. I did gain awesome traction and the ability to maneuver and the bindings are very secure and maybe even a bit of overkill. if you broke one of the straps you wouldnt even notice it as long as the three left are moved to the optimum positions. You would actually have to break at least THREE straps per pair before it got to be noticeable, but you could still limp back just fine. It's a great shoe but I recommend getting the 30" regardless of what weight you are, and the 5" tails will be a benefit for you if you go in any powder.
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