BG(s)+Armor+Home Invasion

[6933]

Wife and I have been discussing/planning just in case. First, let's put to rest that we fit the profile of those that generally get invaded. I've trained with and met enough people from M4C for it to be known we are not criminal elements. Bad shit does happen to the good guys also.

However, due to factors that I am not going into, we feel we are at a higher probability than most for something to potentially occur.

BG's have made entry and have been put down with CM shots. I do not feel the BG's would have Velocity Systems multi-hit capable plates on, but who knows. So, BG's are down. If no call to 911 yet, one of us calls now; if we feel comfortable with one of us temporarily out of the fight. Possibly I engaged while wife took other action so she may have made call early in invasion. No way to know what will happen, obviously.

If BG(s) only temporarily "knocked out", probably going to just cover them until LE arrives. Can't turn back on them. Can't walk over and finish them off; that's execution. How do you deal with BG(s) that may or may not get back in the fight? What if they start to get back up?

My thought is for both of us to use a carbine with proper ammo. so that regardless of armor or not, the BG(s) take hits that incapacitate them. Keep carbines within arm's reach at all times? That's tough with an infant in the house. She has been disciplined to not even think about touching a weapon, but ...

I'm really thinking about picking up 2 SCAR 17s's , going SBR, and using these as primary weapons. CM shots on BG's with armor would fix the issue. Proper ammo. of course. We all know shot placement is key, but I am thinking of wife/adrenaline/fluidity of situation, etc. makes .308 a good choice in dealing with the armor issue. Yes, I know 5.56 works wonders, but I am talking about being as sure as possible hits the wife gets puts BG's down and out. My wife is a tough, mean bitch that has many female friends that have served in the IDF, she has the correct mindset, went through Katrina and Lenny. She is in shape(runs/lifts/grapples with me) and I have no doubt she could handle the .308. Not something she would want to hump all day, but isn't an issue in this situation. She will run several TigerSwan classes to get familiar. Yeah, she's serious about it.

I worry about the BG's getting back up, issues with the law, etc. Deading them from the beginning seems like the best option.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?

I am watching our infant while writing so if I forgot anything, give me a break.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I doubt I am the only one grappling with this recent turn of BG's wearing armor.

[J8127]

I know this goes against the grain here, but this is getting ridiculous IMO.

Teams of armored bad guys are not invading random houses, they are going after drugs and shit. You don't need to drop thousands of dollars for SBR'd SCARs and have elaborate force on force defense plans.

[QuietShootr]

You don't know the OP's situation. In a super-high-dollar residential neighborhood in Florida, his concerns might not be misplaced.

It's all in your comfort level with your preparations. Some people are content with no gun. Some are content with Grandad's old bird gun, for which they don't even know where the shells are. Some think a shotgun with birdshot is plenty.

I would say a 5.56 carbine with a light will handle 95% of any situation you're likely to encounter in the home - the SCAR 17 will take care of the remaining 4.5% - and the last 0.5% (you're being Helter-Skeltered at multiple entry points by trained, blooded people who have done this before, behind full Level IV armor and shields, equipped with explosive breaching capability) you're in deeper shit than you're going to be able to handle.

The last maxim of gunfighting is that sometimes, albeit rarely, you can do everything right and die anyway.

Roundabout way of saying - if that last 4.5% of insurance makes you feel better, don't let someone scoffing on the Internet deter you from doing what you think is right.

If I knew I was going down the hall to get in a gunfight, Yes, I'd rather have my SCAR17 stoked with TAP or Barnes TSX than a 5.56. I'd do it with my 10" 5.56, for sure, but why not have more power.

[Axcelea]

I think a lot of the best decisions that could be made for your needs really are probably impossible for those who do not fully know your situation. Not talking about why you want to address this or anything and I am more than willing to let someones reasons being left personal but anything from your house layout, sleep and wake habits, where the intrusion occurs, etc can play a role in addressing your issue.

Keeping the fighting to a fatal funnel with the BGs having to go through it to get to your family makes the situation much more ideal for calling 911, solo standoff, etc as their offensive ability is drastically decreased so if you can plan and create defense around keeping the BGs as vulnerable as possible while minimizing your vulnerability then I say do so. Goes into ambush vs trying to clear your own house, usually its best to just call 911 and wait in ambush in a fairly safe location. So I would really look into how best to keep intruders vulnerable and minimize your vulnerability while defending so that it is safer when calling 911 and covering incapacitated individuals.

As for hardware I not sure about the 5.56 vs 7.62 although 7.62 will obviously have better raw penetration while sacrificing some control. In the end I think it takes a back seat to software such as being ready to take a CNS shot, take points of strategic advantage, cover or concealment, etc.

[6933]

I think a lot of the best decisions that could be made for your needs really are probably impossible for those who do not fully know your situation. Not talking about why you want to address this or anything and I am more than willing to let someones reasons being left personal but anything from your house layout, sleep and wake habits, where the intrusion occurs, etc can play a role in addressing your issue.

Keeping the fighting to a fatal funnel with the BGs having to go through it to get to your family makes the situation much more ideal for calling 911, solo standoff, etc as their offensive ability is drastically decreased so if you can plan and create defense around keeping the BGs as vulnerable as possible while minimizing your vulnerability then I say do so. Goes into ambush vs trying to clear your own house, usually its best to just call 911 and wait in ambush in a fairly safe location. So I would really look into how best to keep intruders vulnerable and minimize your vulnerability while defending so that it is safer when calling 911 and covering incapacitated individuals.


Agree. Fatal funnel is key.

So we're clear; this isn't tin foil hat shit. LE is involved and aware. High probability house is being cased. Other highly suspicious behavior. Came home around 10pm several days ago and saw 2 guys flee from side of house. This, along with other "clues" are why I am discussing this. I have a wife and infant I love with all my heart.

Any advantage I can get, I will. I look at it like Quiet does. It's a matter of probabilities and a .308, I feel, increases the probability of incapacitating a BG. This would rectify the issue of worrying about a BG in armor getting up again to do harm.

[NoveskeFan]

Agree. Fatal funnel is key.

So we're clear; this isn't tin foil hat shit. LE is involved and aware. High probability house is being cased. Other highly suspicious behavior. Came home around 10pm several days ago and saw 2 guys flee from side of house. This, along with other "clues" are why I am discussing this. I have a wife and infant I love with all my heart.

Any advantage I can get, I will. I look at it like Quiet does. It's a matter of probabilities and a .308, I feel, increases the probability of incapacitating a BG. This would rectify the issue of worrying about a BG in armor getting up again to do harm.

How's the exterior of your house? I mean all corners well lit at night, no overgrown bushes, etc. House alarm? Any dogs?
Stay vigilant. My wife is due in July and I would be on edge if I observed the same around my home.

[QuietShootr]

Agree. Fatal funnel is key.

So we're clear; this isn't tin foil hat shit. LE is involved and aware. High probability house is being cased. Other highly suspicious behavior. Came home around 10pm several days ago and saw 2 guys flee from side of house. This, along with other "clues" are why I am discussing this. I have a wife and infant I love with all my heart.

Any advantage I can get, I will. I look at it like Quiet does. It's a matter of probabilities and a .308, I feel, increases the probability of incapacitating a BG. This would rectify the issue of worrying about a BG in armor getting up again to do harm.

Nothing is 100%, you're just increasing your percentages going to a bigger gun. Now - as the other poster said above, arranging your house so they have to come to you, preferably down a hallway, will do more to equalize the situation than the additional advantage a 7.62 will give you. I don't know your floor plan, but a thought would be to put a security door (the barred grate type) between your sleeping quarters and the rest of the house - yes, it could be breached, but you're buying time for the cops to get there. If you set it halfway down a hallway, you'd make it a mighty pain in the ass for someone to set a charge or attempt a mechanical breach with you throwing rounds at them through the door.

Might be good to get external CCTV cameras so you can see what's going on outside.

ETA: if you can afford a pair of SCAR17s, you can afford to glaze your bedroom windows with security film or replace them with Lexan. It'd be a little embarrassing to Alamo in the back half of your house only to have some asshole toss a gas or FB through your bedroom window.

[Inkslinger]

If BG(s) only temporarily "knocked out", probably going to just cover them until LE arrives. Can't turn back on them. Can't walk over and finish them off; that's execution. How do you deal with BG(s) that may or may not get back in the fight? What if they start to get back up?

I worry about the BG's getting back up, issues with the law, etc. Deading them from the beginning seems like the best option.


It sounds like your more worried about possible criminal repercussions . If BG stays down after you hit him in the plate a couple of times, great! Cover him till LEO arrives. If he stays in the fight move to the melon. That's a little different than walking over action hero style and turning out his lights with one to the head.

[Eurodriver]

I concur, it does sound a bit tinfoil hat-ish but we don't know the OPs situation.

As someone who owns a SCAR 17 with a light, I have a few concerns I'd like to raise.

The first is overpenetration. I live in a wooden house with other houses (some wooden) within 50 yards in quite a few directions. I have no doubt .308 could go through my wall and into another home. The last thing I want is a dead neighbor's child because I went whacko jacko with the battle rifle against some meth addict looking for cash.

The second thing is muzzle blast. I have an AAC Blackout on mine and even with a 16" barrel the thing is LOUD. So loud it could be potentially disorienting. You SBR that and you're looking at a flash bang going off in your face. Better grab a suppressor (but what do you use for the next 6 months while the paperwork goes through)

The 3rd is weight and length. A SCAR17 with a 13" barrel and a 30cal suppressor is going to weigh a ton and be as long as an M16A4.

My recommendation? Get a 10.3" AR15 in 5.56 with a suppressor and practice extensively with failure to stop drills going after both headshots and hip shots. You won't have the overpenetration issues, you won't have the length and weight issues, practice is cheap, for the price of TWO you are looking at 1 SBR'd SCAR 17 with a suppressor.

Hip shots are very effective at disabling a target

[J8127]

Agree. Fatal funnel is key.

So we're clear; this isn't tin foil hat shit. LE is involved and aware. High probability house is being cased. Other highly suspicious behavior. Came home around 10pm several days ago and saw 2 guys flee from side of house. This, along with other "clues" are why I am discussing this. I have a wife and infant I love with all my heart.

Any advantage I can get, I will. I look at it like Quiet does. It's a matter of probabilities and a .308, I feel, increases the probability of incapacitating a BG. This would rectify the issue of worrying about a BG in armor getting up again to do harm.

Hope you didn't take anything personally, wasn't my intent, I'm just seeing a lot of threads about guys getting ready for the evil SWAT team to roll in. Best of luck with this, I hope nothing comes of it.

[Jaysop]

I know this goes against the grain here, but this is getting ridiculous IMO.

Teams of armored bad guys are not invading random houses, they are going after drugs and shit. You don't need to drop thousands of dollars for SBR'd SCARs and have elaborate force on force defense plans.

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!
There's nothing wronge with being prepared but keeping an assault rifle at arms distance at all times? There seems to be a lot of fear mongoring going on here lately . If your thinking home defense think...
1. Security system
2. Dog
3. Motion lights
4. Night lights
5. Neighborhood watch programs
Countless other things I'd concidering before keeping weapons stashed around my house or actually maintaining one near me at all times.
I grew up in a nasty area and never once thought to be in such a high defensive mode all the time. If your always anticipating getting invaded by armor wearing teams of assassins when do you live your life?
** LAST STATMENT NOT DIRECTED TO THE OP BUT TO EVERYONE WHO ACTS THAT ACUALY PERTIANS TO THEM.

[Jaysop]

Agree. Fatal funnel is key.

So we're clear; this isn't tin foil hat shit. LE is involved and aware. High probability house is being cased. Other highly suspicious behavior. Came home around 10pm several days ago and saw 2 guys flee from side of house. This, along with other "clues" are why I am discussing this. I have a wife and infant I love with all my heart.

Any advantage I can get, I will. I look at it like Quiet does. It's a matter of probabilities and a .308, I feel, increases the probability of incapacitating a BG. This would rectify the issue of worrying about a BG in armor getting up again to do harm.

I missed this comment. I apologize... I thought you were a nut :p
I have an infant as well an saw someone learking around my home as well. I was lucky enough to be able to confront them and that ended that. I see where your coming from. I'd Be concidering flood lights and motion sensors. They act like sun to vampires in most cases. If your community doesn't slow that. Fake or real cameras made obvious when placed around your home work well to. Let's be honest, most petty criminals aren't smart or they'd have better jobs. Appearing to be more stand offish from your end will probably push then towards a softer target.
Stay safe and report back what you end up doing.

-Jesse

[Drummer]

Hardening your home is more important than 5.56 vs 7.62. Installing a security door for your living quarters is a good idea. Installing hurricane film on your windows is also a good idea. Lastly, look at hardening your entry points: garage, back door, side door, front door, etc.

The type of threat dictates how you should prioritize. For example, is it a threat against you or members of your family, threat of stealing your stuff, etc. A threat against persons requires diligence when outside the home as well.

[Patrick Aherne]

Leave, now. Seriously, if the threat is as high as you have intimated, there is nothing in your house worth dying for or seeing your wife and kid killed or raped in front of you.

[Iraqgunz]

A few thoughts.

1. If you are indeed being cased then I suggest beefing up your house. That means possible addition of extra surveillance equipment and bright lights that will make it difficult for persons to get close w/o being detected.

2. Look at making a room a "safe room". Reinforce the door if possible, keep a cell phone and extra ammo and weapons inside.

3. Rehearse some scenarios where you and the wife scoop up 'Little 6933" and secure yourselves in the room.

4. Keeping an AR around is not difficult. I have no idea how old "little 6933" is but can she take a magazine, insert it, pull the charging handle and fire it? I am guessing no. So you keep AR and magazine close by and if necessary use a large rubber band and band the mag to your buttstock. Have the bolt forward and on SAFE.

5. Consider carrying your sidearm at all times even in the home, if possible.

6. See about adding a good outside dog. Not only are they early warning devices, but they may deter douches as well.

7. Regardless of what happens, do not under any circumstances go searching for them if they make entry. Call 911, stand your ground and make them come to you. I doubt that they will be wearing vests and plates. If they are wearing standard body armor then any 5.56 round will just about tear through them. If you do engage them shoot them until the threat ceases. If they are down on the ground and still mobile and armed you are well within your rights to enage them as long as you can ARTICULATE it in court. I have no idea where you live but in many cases it won't go that far. You also have the added benefit that local LE is aware of the situation.

[QuietShootr]

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!
There's nothing wronge with being prepared but keeping an assault rifle at arms distance at all times? There seems to be a lot of fear mongoring going on here lately . If your thinking home defense think...
1. Security system
2. Dog
3. Motion lights
4. Night lights
5. Neighborhood watch programs
Countless other things I'd concidering before keeping weapons stashed around my house or actually maintaining one near me at all times.
I grew up in a nasty area and never once thought to be in such a high defensive mode all the time. If your always anticipating getting invaded by armor wearing teams of assassins when do you live your life?
** LAST STATMENT NOT DIRECTED TO THE OP BUT TO EVERYONE WHO ACTS THAT ACUALY PERTIANS TO THEM.

Shhh, LonGuyland. I know we ain't as sivilized as our NY/NJ crew, but we've got this under control.

I love that even supposedly pro-2nd people from the East think it's crazy to have loaded guns around. Years of indoctrination really do work.

[Jaysop]

Shhh, LonGuyland. I know we ain't as sivilized as our NY/NJ crew, but we've got this under control.

I love that even supposedly pro-2nd people from the East think it's crazy to have loaded guns around. Years of indoctrination really do work.

I never said I disagree with having loaded guns around. There's a difference between having a loaded pistol in the nightstand or shotgun/AR near your bed. But having assault weapons stashed around your house or patrolling your own home with a weapon and a combat mindset is overkill.
Don't get up my ass because I live in a blue state or talk down to me because I've been "brainwash", don't think that I'm not open minded to what goes on. I've grown up and live around people who fear guns, I know that a maniac who lives like that is fuel for their fire.

AND If someone thinks a gun is the only way of protecting themselves they're fckin retarded. I'd rather set my home up to avoid invasion then prepare for it to happen. Yes I know it happens but making your house a hard target is smarter when you have a family to care for.

[Kfgk14]

I'd say you're on the right track, but that's speculation from a civvie whose never been on any two-way ranges, except the kind with paintball guns.
I'd say that you're better safe than sorry. They come through the door/window, light them the hell up. Screw two shots, riddle them with lead. That's my plan, anyway. Then again, out where I am, I don't have such concerns as over penetration into somebody's house/car/etc. Anyone within range of the weapons in my home is on my property anyway.

[sboza]

A few thoughts.

1. If you are indeed being cased then I suggest beefing up your house. That means possible addition of extra surveillance equipment and bright lights that will make it difficult for persons to get close w/o being detected.

2. Look at making a room a "safe room". Reinforce the door if possible, keep a cell phone and extra ammo and weapons inside.

3. Rehearse some scenarios where you and the wife scoop up 'Little 6933" and secure yourselves in the room.

4. Keeping an AR around is not difficult. I have no idea how old "little 6933" is but can she take a magazine, insert it, pull the charging handle and fire it? I am guessing no. So you keep AR and magazine close by and if necessary use a large rubber band and band the mag to your buttstock. Have the bolt forward and on SAFE.

5. Consider carrying your sidearm at all times even in the home, if possible.

6. See about adding a good outside dog. Not only are they early warning devices, but they may deter douches as well.

7. Regardless of what happens, do not under any circumstances go searching for them if they make entry. Call 911, stand your ground and make them come to you. I doubt that they will be wearing vests and plates. If they are wearing standard body armor then any 5.56 round will just about tear through them. If you do engage them shoot them until the threat ceases. If they are down on the ground and still mobile and armed you are well within your rights to enage them as long as you can ARTICULATE it in court. I have no idea where you live but in many cases it won't go that far. You also have the added benefit that local LE is aware of the situation.

+1 to this. You're worried about caliber when there are way more effective methods to beef up security. I hate to sound like an ass but wtf?

If things are as bad as you make them sound, move! If a team of armored bg's are not likely to raid your home but you still feel you are at a high threat level, take a step back from worrying about caliber and rifle selection. An ar is fine. Barricade your home. Harden your doors and windows. Make a plan and have a safe room, probably the infant's room. Use lighting to your advantage inside an outside your house. Inside lighting which does not backlight your movements at night but light up the directions of likely intruders is ideal. Dogs rock!

Having a plan is crucial but don't go crazy, you can never account for all possibilities. That's what most amateurs do because they are not comfortable in their ability to adapt and improvise. Don't plan to restrain bad guys, that is very risky. Hold at gunpoint and if you think the bg, in reasonable judgement, is a deadly threat, take appropriate action. Create and use choke points and barricades to your advantage. Consider channeling bg's in a direction of your choosing. Don't go Rambo and go hunting for bad guys, hold and ambush.

An if you separate, have established communication for linking up again so neither of you shoot the other under stressful circumstances.


Sorry for the format, am I'm a hurry so just a mix of thoughts off the top of my head. I hope you and your family are safe in this new year.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

And when you leave the house? I understand the desire not to be specific about the threat, but if you harden your house, what about when you aren't there, is the threat still present? Are you at risk on the move, at work? If you harden your life, what about close family members that can be used to to barter?


Here's hoping that you just watched too much 'Scarface' over the holidays.

[Vash1023]

i have helped plp in this situation before.

you best bet to start off is to order a personal protection dog

there expensive but worth every penny.

link of example

http://www.worldwidecanine.com/ppdogs_wwc.htm

[Patrick Aherne]

Why are you still there? I have Investigated home invasion homicides or robberies where the victim is not a drug-dealing dirtbag, etc. I think you need to duct tape some plates to your back.

Keep in mind, I have spent time at a friend's house, Benelli M1S90 in hand, off safe, waiting for a Mexican Mafia hit squad, to show up.

[fourXfour]

Why are you still there? I have Investigated home invasion homicides or robberies where the victim is not a drug-dealing dirtbag, etc. I think you need to duct tape some plates to your back.

Keep in mind, I have spent time at a friend's house, Benelli M1S90 in hand, off safe, waiting for a Mexican Mafia hit squad, to show up.

You are an amazing man Pat!! The borough is hardcore!!

I have to agree. If you feel your house is compromised, it may be a better idea to temporarily relocate. My wife knows we will have a family member (different last name) rent a hotel room out of the area and meet there. Thankfully the Mexican Mafia hasn't knocked on my door!!!

[Atchcraft]

I know this goes against the grain here, but this is getting ridiculous IMO.

Teams of armored bad guys are not invading random houses, they are going after drugs and shit. You don't need to drop thousands of dollars for SBR'd SCARs and have elaborate force on force defense plans.

This really isn't that far-fetched. In a shit-hole, gang infested city near me, This was actually happening. witnesses reported, "they looked like a SWAT team". In fact, we received a security brief about these elements targeting "Cops" homes, looking for guns, body armor, etc.. It's not rampant, but it happens. One of my partners home was broken into and they went straight for he safe. It was a broad day light, targeted hit. They were watching and knew. He lost all of his guns and his safe (some later recovered on local felons). Witnesses stated that it was 4 men in a suburban... in and out. This was not the work of a strung out meth-head.

I agree that you can over think things and I'm not living MY life in fear. But, I'm sure we all know that anyone can be a traget at anytime and not every break in is a junkie looking to steal you Xbox... and that's my .02.

[sboza]

This really isn't that far-fetched. In a shit-hole, gang infested city near me, This was actually happening. witnesses reported, "they looked like a SWAT team". In fact, we received a security brief about these elements targeting "Cops" homes, looking for guns, body armor, etc.. It's not rampant, but it happens. One of my partners home was broken into and they went straight for he safe. It was a broad day light, targeted hit. They were watching and knew. He lost all of his guns and his safe (some later recovered on local felons). Witnesses stated that it was 4 men in a suburban... in and out. This was not the work of a strung out meth-head.

I agree that you can over think things and I'm not living MY life in fear. But, I'm sure we all know that anyone can be a traget at anytime and not every break in is a junkie looking to steal you Xbox... and that's my .02.

I think my issue with the OP is that his priority seems to be based around caliber and rifle selection. That seems absolutely amateurish and immature given the nature of the threat he believes to exist. It sounds like this situation has given him the green light of justification to buy all the fun toys he wants. That is fine but if this is a serious issue, there are way better ways to increase his family's safety other than choosing 7.62 vs 5.56. And if the threat is that high, move, at least temporarily. If the treat is not quite that significant, the suggestions above on how to harden your home are excellent.

[rob_s]

IMO any of the posts regarding whether or not this is paranoid or realistic should be moved to another thread. This is supposed to be M4C. We should be operating under the assumption that an established member here in good standing is a rational and intelligent person and has identified a perceived threat.

That out of the way...

6933,

I cannot agree more with the suggestion of a real, trained, adult, security dog. I know people that have them and if I wind up with a family again I will sell guns if I have to in order to get one myself.

I would also be looking into alarms, surveillance, etc.


If this is all already going on and part of your planning, and your purpose here in this thread is to compartmentalize and talk about guns...

IMO the .308 idea may be overkill. From a cost standpoint, and weight and bulk standpoint, etc. I believe that a 300BLK or a 6.8SPC would be a better solution, and in this specific scenario of dedicated house guns I'd be leaning heavily towards the former, suppressed but with supersonic ammo. 8" Noveske barrels with something like the Sandstorm (http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/SANDSTORM-10p48.htm) attached. Run a DD MFR 12.0 (https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/modular-float-rail/modular-float-rail-12-0.html) over the whole thing.

[Reagans Rascals]

Install window bars on all windows, and replace the entrance doors with steel security doors, or a barred exterior door. Install cameras around the entrances and motion lighting around the house.

Then your good to go....

If they try to get in, they'll have their hands full trying to get through the steel bars or the security doors and if they choose to stay and work their way in, they can't avoid activating the motion lights or being picked up on camera... then just simply call the police or go downstairs and put them down as they are trying to get in.....

Just put things in place to prevent entry..... if even for a few minutes

if you have a heavily armed group of men, wearing armor, trying to execute a dynamic entry into your house utilizing a door or window pull.... you've got some really big problems... and would probably be best getting some type of heavy caliber belt-fed weapon with sandbags...

[Atchcraft]

I think my issue with the OP is that his priority seems to be based around caliber and rifle selection. That seems absolutely amateurish and immature given the nature of the threat he believes to exist. It sounds like this situation has given him the green light of justification to buy all the fun toys he wants. That is fine but if this is a serious issue, there are way better ways to increase his family's safety other than choosing 7.62 vs 5.56. And if the threat is that high, move, at least temporarily. If the treat is not quite that significant, the suggestions above on how to harden your home are excellent.

I see your point... agreed.

[Patrick Aherne]

You are an amazing man Pat!! The borough is hardcore!!

I have to agree. If you feel your house is compromised, it may be a better idea to temporarily relocate. My wife knows we will have a family member (different last name) rent a hotel room out of the area and meet there. Thankfully the Mexican Mafia hasn't knocked on my door!!!

Wasn't in the borough. I used to work in a different place; I like to describe my move as one from the outhouse to the penthouse.

[EvilBob217]

Where I work we are no longer seeing the simple criminal on criminal home invasions. They're moving in on normal, decent folk and are quickly learning small unit techniques and tactics. Some even go as far as to try to look like us and act like us, even using CVs with lights and everything. Some of it can be tied to a cartel influence, others are just local thugs that have decided to step their game up.

However I do agree with most everyone else. If it really is getting this serious, I suggest it's time to pop smoke and leave.

[QuietShootr]

Where I work we are no longer seeing the simple criminal on criminal home invasions. They're moving in on normal, decent folk and are quickly learning small unit techniques and tactics. Some even go as far as to try to look like us and act like us, even using CVs with lights and everything. Some of it can be tied to a cartel influence, others are just local thugs that have decided to step their game up.

However I do agree with most everyone else. If it really is getting this serious, I suggest it's time to pop smoke and leave.

Also, let's not forget that there are a large number of gang members in the US military, and they're getting actual combat experience right now. When they start returning to civilian life in great numbers, the bad shit is going to intensify. For many years the paradigm of the armed citizen has dictated that most likely, your assailant(s) will be a skinny little crackhead or a drunk trailer dweller. Now, sometimes your assailant is going to be a combat veteran Soldier or Marine.

Do you still think it's too cold to go outside and shoot today?

[QuietShootr]

IMO any of the posts regarding whether or not this is paranoid or realistic should be moved to another thread. This is supposed to be M4C. We should be operating under the assumption that an established member here in good standing is a rational and intelligent person and has identified a perceived threat.

That out of the way...

6933,

I cannot agree more with the suggestion of a real, trained, adult, security dog. I know people that have them and if I wind up with a family again I will sell guns if I have to in order to get one myself.

I would also be looking into alarms, surveillance, etc.


If this is all already going on and part of your planning, and your purpose here in this thread is to compartmentalize and talk about guns...

IMO the .308 idea may be overkill. From a cost standpoint, and weight and bulk standpoint, etc. I believe that a 300BLK or a 6.8SPC would be a better solution, and in this specific scenario of dedicated house guns I'd be leaning heavily towards the former, suppressed but with supersonic ammo. 8" Noveske barrels with something like the Sandstorm (http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/SANDSTORM-10p48.htm) attached. Run a DD MFR 12.0 (https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/modular-float-rail/modular-float-rail-12-0.html) over the whole thing.

and this, too.

[6933]

Damn, some pretty shitty comments from someone not knowing me or the situation.

Sorry it took me so long to write back, but been busy.

Temporarily relocated.
Have had xtra security measures put in place.
Looking to add 2 German Shepard(prof. trained) guard dogs ASAP.
Going to move out of state. Was already in the works, have moved time table up significantly.

Several have made suggestions(and we have talked before) that I concur with and have put into place or have started the process of.

As far as management of house when not there, local LE are bending over backwards. The layout of house and land make checking the house(w/o exiting vehicle) over before entering quite easy. Infant is safe during day at secure gov. facility. No person or "crew" would be able to even think about taking her. Wife is aware of all PERSEC precautions and we will be spending some quality time with those that can teach us more about what we need to know. The friends and connections I have made through this board are great!

Thanks for all the responses and a big hug to all. Not a gay hug, but manly!

[QuietShootr]

Damn, some pretty shitty comments from someone not knowing me or the situation.

Sorry it took me so long to write back, but been busy.

Temporarily relocated.
Have had xtra security measures put in place.
Looking to add 2 German Shepard(prof. trained) guard dogs ASAP.
Going to move out of state. Was already in the works, have moved time table up significantly.

Several have made suggestions(and we have talked before) that I concur with and have put into place or have started the process of.

As far as management of house when not there, local LE are bending over backwards. The layout of house and land make checking the house(w/o exiting vehicle) over before entering quite easy. Infant is safe during day at secure gov. facility. No person or "crew" would be able to even think about taking her. Wife is aware of all PERSEC precautions and we will be spending some quality time with those that can teach us more about what we need to know. The friends and connections I have made through this board are great!

Thanks for all the responses and a big hug to all. Not a gay hug, but manly!

PM for additional suggestions on your specific situation if you want.

[Patrick Aherne]

Damn, some pretty shitty comments from someone not knowing me or the situation.

Sorry it took me so long to write back, but been busy.

Temporarily relocated.
Have had xtra security measures put in place.
Looking to add 2 German Shepard(prof. trained) guard dogs ASAP.
Going to move out of state. Was already in the works, have moved time table up significantly.

Several have made suggestions(and we have talked before) that I concur with and have put into place or have started the process of.

As far as management of house when not there, local LE are bending over backwards. The layout of house and land make checking the house(w/o exiting vehicle) over before entering quite easy. Infant is safe during day at secure gov. facility. No person or "crew" would be able to even think about taking her. Wife is aware of all PERSEC precautions and we will be spending some quality time with those that can teach us more about what we need to know. The friends and connections I have made through this board are great!

Thanks for all the responses and a big hug to all. Not a gay hug, but manly!


Good, glad to hear your family is safe. These are the kinds of things I wanted to hear, rather than weapons choice. The best gunfight, especially where your family is involved, is the one you avoid.

[Generalpie]

There are plenty of good suggestions for security in the above postings. Obviously hardening the target is always a good idea.

To answer the question about what to do with someone who is down but not out I would say do just like LE would do in a situation with no backup. Play it by ear and punt. Take cover and call for assistance. Someone who is on the ground and still armed can be a serious threat. They start to make bad moves they get more bad medicine.

I trained dogs for a long time. A real protection trained dog is a lot of responsibility but they are fantastic for an added level of protection. I for one would not want one that protects an area, liability is a bit to high for me. Now one that bites upon command or aggression to the handler is a great asset. It is however a big commitment. They are not "train and forget it".

Even an untrained dog is a great mobile alarm system. Sometimes they are so good it is scary.

Stay safe

[suthrncop66]

I agree that a dog is a great alarm but disagree with the idea that a dog is any defense to the scenario that the op described...A good dog would/might be beneficial in your typical home invasion..but if a well trained heavily armed group assaulted your home the dog would become a quick casualty.. The main thing is hardening the target and then planning and training.. You also might consider something designed for close quarters maybe even an automatic or 3 shot burst.

[sboza]

I agree that a dog is a great alarm but disagree with the idea that a dog is any defense to the scenario that the op described...A good dog would/might be beneficial in your typical home invasion..but if a well trained heavily armed group assaulted your home the dog would become a quick casualty.. The main thing is hardening the target and then planning and training.. You also might consider something designed for close quarters maybe even an automatic or 3 shot burst.

I don't know where you're coming from regarding auto and burst options. Even if the OP were able somehow to legally obtain such a weapon system, neither option is particularily useful in a cqb environment (burst is, IMHO, always a crappy option). I am not trying to be mean, I know we're playin a bit of Hollywood fantasy here but I just don't understandable suggestion. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you.

[Axcelea]

I don't know where you're coming from regarding auto and burst options. Even if the OP were able somehow to legally obtain such a weapon system, neither option is particularily useful in a cqb environment (burst is, IMHO, always a crappy option). I am not trying to be mean, I know we're playin a bit of Hollywood fantasy here but I just don't understandable suggestion. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you.

Not that I am advocating it as a must have or even really needed that much I think a full auto or burst function could be fairly handy in a close quarters environment and even more so if body armor is thrown in there. Basically since its close up a good group should be manageable where more wounds should prove more effective at neutralizing the threat and if there is body armor then it has a chance of breaking and defeating it in a quick time span without to much conscious effort. The more the range increases auto and burst should be less about specific/individual targets and more to do with area and suppressive fire where semi-auto and individual shots will have the much more distinct advantage.

Really though controlled pairs, semi-auto bursts, two and ones, etc should suffice plenty though for what most users need. Just my opinion.

[sboza]

Not that I am advocating it as a must have or even really needed that much I think a full auto or burst function could be fairly handy in a close quarters environment and even more so if body armor is thrown in there. Basically since its close up a good group should be manageable where more wounds should prove more effective at neutralizing the threat and if there is body armor then it has a chance of breaking and defeating it in a quick time span without to much conscious effort. The more the range increases auto and burst should be less about specific/individual targets and more to do with area and suppressive fire where semi-auto and individual shots will have the much more distinct advantage.

Really though controlled pairs, semi-auto bursts, two and ones, etc should suffice plenty though for what most users need. Just my opinion.

I could see the benefit for some top tier assaulters but I've always been taught fa in cqb is a no go. Would love to hear differing opinions on that. Perhaps in another thread if we're straying too far from the OP's situation.

[suthrncop66]

I'll take the hit on auto, but I still think that the bursts would be a good option especially in cqb with multiple armored assailants.. Just put it out there not knowing the full story behind the story so to speak. And not knowing if money is an option, it seems like it might not be, being that the op went out and picked up two trained attack dogs..just my opinion.

[Iraqgunz]

Full auto is like so bad ass...especially in Hollywood when they start shooting everywhere and almost no one gets hit.

The reality is that full auto isn't all that and even though he may be engaging persons in his home, he still needs to be account for the rounds fired. Aimed semi-autofire will still be much better than any spray and pray.

[QuietShootr]

Full auto is like so bad ass...especially in Hollywood when they start shooting everywhere and almost no one gets hit.

The reality is that full auto isn't all that and even though he may be engaging persons in his home, he still needs to be account for the rounds fired. Aimed semi-autofire will still be much better than any spray and pray.

I think the proper spelling of that term is 'badass', in my observation of our new crop of young guns. Used like this:

"I just want a .338 that's badass. What'd be a badass scope to put on my badass .338?"

[suthrncop66]

I agree I should not have said full auto, wasnt really what I was thinking, was thinking more along the lines of 3 shot bursts..

[sboza]

I agree I should not have said full auto, wasnt really what I was thinking, was thinking more along the lines of 3 shot bursts..

I don't want you to think I'm picking on you brother but I have never been a fan of burst on the m4/ar platform. To begin with, I don't like the concept. Seems like a mechanical limitation to compensate for a lack of fa training. Second, the timing is dumb on this platform. So if you squeeze off a burst and release the trigger too soon, you may have only fired two shots. When you engage your next threat, you may be expecting 3 but you only have a shot remaining on that trigger pull. I think this is hell for rhythm and predictability and isn't worth the hassle. If you have a select fire weapon (especially for an ar), I say fa over burst any day.

Just my opinion and I will admit that I have minimal exposure to burst weapons. I have more experience with fa but still don't see an application for it as far as cqb goes. I suppose better to have it but for the OP and the average American, this is either impossible or seriously cost prohibitive and requires, imho, a lot of training (not just fam) if using stateside. Again, I am happy to listen to the opinions of others regarding this issue. I don't want to come off as closed minded. I just don't see the application here.

[cowpuncher]

I'll take the hit on auto, but I still think that the bursts would be a good option especially in cqb with multiple armored assailants.. Just put it out there not knowing the full story behind the story so to speak. And not knowing if money is an option, it seems like it might not be, being that the op went out and picked up two trained attack dogs..just my opinion.

Have you been reading FM90-10?:nono:

In suthrncop66s defense, doctrinally speaking, according to FM90-10 (you know, the "Bible" of MOUT for the regular Army...:rolleyes: despite having been written in the early 90s...is there a new version out yet?), it is proper for the first man through the door in the battle drill "enter and clear a room/building" to use three-round burst fire to engage any suspected hiding places or known enemy personnel...

Not that I've ever heard of that technique actually being used, and the manual does go on to point out that in many cases, outside of "general war" (i.e. Holy Shit! The Russians are coming through the Fulda Gap!") there will be a need for "precision MOUT" that demands some level of target discrimination and not just blasting away....

Having said that, between Regiment and Group, I cannot recall EVER using the burst function for ANYTHING.

[Axcelea]

Even though I am a strong advocate for sticking with semi-auto, could we not go straw man on arguing against FA? Making it look like all FA and burst is is someone sweeping back and forth with the butt at the hip is a bit silly. Accounting for every round especially in a home defense scenario, the possibility of using it as a training crutch and then doing something like freak out and dump the mag, target transition speed, precision of individual shots, etc are legit reasons.

[Sure1]

Wife and I have been discussing/planning just in case. First, let's put to rest that we fit the profile of those that generally get invaded. I've trained with and met enough people from M4C for it to be known we are not criminal elements. Bad shit does happen to the good guys also.

However, due to factors that I am not going into, we feel we are at a higher probability than most for something to potentially occur.

BG's have made entry and have been put down with CM shots. I do not feel the BG's would have Velocity Systems multi-hit capable plates on, but who knows. So, BG's are down. If no call to 911 yet, one of us calls now; if we feel comfortable with one of us temporarily out of the fight. Possibly I engaged while wife took other action so she may have made call early in invasion. No way to know what will happen, obviously.

If BG(s) only temporarily "knocked out", probably going to just cover them until LE arrives. Can't turn back on them. Can't walk over and finish them off; that's execution. How do you deal with BG(s) that may or may not get back in the fight? What if they start to get back up?

My thought is for both of us to use a carbine with proper ammo. so that regardless of armor or not, the BG(s) take hits that incapacitate them. Keep carbines within arm's reach at all times? That's tough with an infant in the house. She has been disciplined to not even think about touching a weapon, but ...

I'm really thinking about picking up 2 SCAR 17s's , going SBR, and using these as primary weapons. CM shots on BG's with armor would fix the issue. Proper ammo. of course. We all know shot placement is key, but I am thinking of wife/adrenaline/fluidity of situation, etc. makes .308 a good choice in dealing with the armor issue. Yes, I know 5.56 works wonders, but I am talking about being as sure as possible hits the wife gets puts BG's down and out. My wife is a tough, mean bitch that has many female friends that have served in the IDF, she has the correct mindset, went through Katrina and Lenny. She is in shape(runs/lifts/grapples with me) and I have no doubt she could handle the .308. Not something she would want to hump all day, but isn't an issue in this situation. She will run several TigerSwan classes to get familiar. Yeah, she's serious about it.

I worry about the BG's getting back up, issues with the law, etc. Deading them from the beginning seems like the best option.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?

I am watching our infant while writing so if I forgot anything, give me a break.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I doubt I am the only one grappling with this recent turn of BG's wearing armor.

Can't finish them off but there still a threat! How bout introducing them to the butt of your weapon an reknock them out!

[sboza]

Even though I am a strong advocate for sticking with semi-auto, could we not go straw man on arguing against FA? Making it look like all FA and burst is is someone sweeping back and forth with the butt at the hip is a bit silly. Accounting for every round especially in a home defense scenario, the possibility of using it as a training crutch and then doing something like freak out and dump the mag, target transition speed, precision of individual shots, etc are legit reasons.

Wasn't talking about mag dumps. I was always taught not to go full auto for cqb. I'm not trying to be stubborn, if there are some here who kick in doors with the selector on fa and have good reasons for doing so, I would consider changing my view on the topic. I do see some potential benefit for very highly, highly trained guys but I'm not sure I'm buying it in general (and definitely not for the OP).

[sboza]

Can't finish them off but there still a threat! How bout introducing them to the butt of your weapon an reknock them out!

Absolutely NOT! Distance is your friend!

Take it easy on the movie watching :stop:

[Axcelea]

Wasn't talking about mag dumps. I was always taught not to go full auto for cqb. I'm not trying to be stubborn, if there are some here who kick in doors with the selector on fa and have good reasons for doing so, I would consider changing my view on the topic. I do see some potential benefit for very highly, highly trained guys but I'm not sure I'm buying it in general (and definitely not for the OP).

Wasn't directed at you. There were some comments related to as seen in Hollywood, spray and pray, and being bad ass that cropped up which although appropriate if the discussion was using full auto as some sort of room broom to sweep the area and rather BS ideas like that but since its in the context of a controlled burst on one target such comments are missing their mark and dare I say witty remark spray and pray :laugh:

[sboza]

Wasn't directed at you. There were some comments related to as seen in Hollywood, spray and pray, and being bad ass that cropped up which although appropriate if the discussion was using full auto as some sort of room broom to sweep the area and rather BS ideas like that but since its in the context of a controlled burst on one target such comments are missing their mark and dare I say witty remark spray and pray :laugh:

Gotcha. "Room broom," I like that brother. :)

[Irish]

Take it easy on the movie watching :stop:

That applies to all the FA and 3 round burst crap too. Even if it were remotely feasible for him to purchase such weapon don't forget about NFA stamps and a minimum 6 month waiting period. This thread is about an immediate threat to a forum member and his family.

This thread is evolving from a serious topic where people could be learning some very beneficial information into a scene from Heat.

[sboza]

That applies to all the FA and 3 round burst crap too. Even if it were remotely feasible for him to purchase such weapon don't forget about NFA stamps and a minimum 6 month waiting period. This thread is about an immediate threat to a forum member and his family.

This thread is evolving from a serious topic where people could be learning some very beneficial information into a scene from Heat.

Agreed 100% regarding the silliness.

But I have to say that this entire thread is a bit wacky even though a lot of good information emerged. The OP posted a question about caliber and weapon selection under circumstances which he considers a real threat to his family's safety. This caused useless (imho) posts and some productive posts trying to get the OP to see that there are greater priorities than choosing a bigger bullet.

Finally, on page three, the OP chimed in with hurt feelings revealing information that he had not previously revealed describing some more practical things he has done or is in the process of doing. If this had been revealed from the beginning, people probably wouldn't have been as harsh.

All I'm trying to say is that it's been a weird thread.

Edit to add: I do truly wish the OP and his family my best. He sounds like a good guy and I can't imagine going through what he has to. I can handle threats to myself but not my loved ones. My prayers are with you and your family.

[charmcitycop]

.......

[Battle*Hound]

IMO any of the posts regarding whether or not this is paranoid or realistic should be moved to another thread. This is supposed to be M4C. We should be operating under the assumption that an established member here in good standing is a rational and intelligent person and has identified a perceived threat.


Thank you Rob

[Battle*Hound]

Absolutely NOT! Distance is your friend!

Take it easy on the movie watching :stop:

Too true / Too funny

[Traveshamockery]

Perhaps the simplest solution is the wisest in this case.

Is the use of handgun calibers (such as .357SIG or 5.7x28mm) that are capable man-stoppers and able to penetrate body armor a possibility?

This keeps the guns on your hips and eliminates the need for carbines stacked around the house. Handguns in both calibers I mentioned are sufficiently high-capacity for multiple invaders.

[Scorpion]

Except neither one of those will penetrate most soft armor, and AP generally isn't available to civilians.

[Traveshamockery]

Except neither one of those will penetrate most soft armor, and AP generally isn't available to civilians.

It's my understanding that .357SIG will penetrate level I, Level IIA, and Level II body armor. Wikipedia cites "MIL-STD-662F V50 BALLISTIC TEST FOR ARMOR" Army Research Laboratory, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate Publication Date:Dec 18, 1997" as the source for that claim.

What I can't speak on, however, is what level of body armor is commonly available these days, or what a criminal is likely to use.

[LowandLeft]

Spray and pray works great in airsoft, paintball and Call of Duty!

In all seriousness, I feel for you 6933. As a husband and a father I can't imagine all that poop. Best of luck and let us know if you need backup !:dirol:

[jb2sea]

Would really like to see a follw-up to this thread from the OP.