View Full Version : LMT bolt problems???
just curious if this seem to be a widespread(relatively at least) issue of late?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=352614
i plan to buy anoth BCG for a backup,and wasnt sure if i should move some other items up on the priority list and give this some time to work itself out(if needed and its indeed a real issue).
Parabellum9x19mm
12-10-07, 01:09
hi Jerm!
bah. i wouldn't worry about it.
i take everything i see on ARFCom with several shakers of salt.
any company can put out a turd, no matter how good their QC is. the measure of a good company is how they deal with that turd.
how has your defender 2000 been treating you so far?
What is that thread up to now, 5 pages? If you will notice he still has not called LMT.
Parabellum9x19mm
12-10-07, 02:31
i emailed LMT in regards to getting spare extractors and extractor springs for the enhanced bolt.
i got a reply back in six minutes, literally 6 minutes, not an exaggeration.
even tho mine was a very small order, you'd think i was placing a major government contract by the way it was handled.
knowing ARFCom, it very well might be a Armalite/Bushmaster/Colt (insert brand here) fanboy bashing a brand he doesn't own. who knows? but it wouldn't be the first time.
even if its not a hoax, it could be that he got a 6.8 or .204 bolt instead of a 5.56
if it really was a serious problem he would have called LMT instead of posting on the internet.
Failure2Stop
12-10-07, 03:08
A 6.8 bolt is the same as a 5.56 bolt, except that the inner diameter has been relieved to fit the larger case-head.
Parabellum9x19mm
12-10-07, 03:37
durrr.
thanks for the correction.
i don't own a 6.8, but i should have known that anyway.
Failure2Stop
12-10-07, 04:46
No prob Para9- we all make mistakes.
What is that thread up to now, 5 pages? If you will notice he still has not called LMT.
Exactly. They just like to complain without actually calling up the company and finding out what has happened.
I guess it is much easier to speculate and ASSume for 5 pages than to pick up the phone.
To date, I have not had a single LMT bolt returned for any issue.
Just like every other company in the world, bad products do get out. No one is perfect.
C4
The OP's poor handling of the situation aside, is anyone else interested in how LMT high pressure test-fired a bolt that wouldn't lock?
hi Jerm!
bah. i wouldn't worry about it.
i take everything i see on ARFCom with several shakers of salt.
any company can put out a turd, no matter how good their QC is. the measure of a good company is how they deal with that turd.
how has your defender 2000 been treating you so far?
didnt know you were over here.
the man who sold me on LMT!:D
truth is i havent got to shoot it much,last month or two has been crazy....but so far so good.
she's a beauty...but thats coming from a proud parent so...
thanks all,i suspected this wasnt something i should be too worried about.
To date, I have not had a single LMT bolt returned for any issue.
One time at Blackwater, there was this one enhanced bolt and carrier combo....:D :D :D
I got an enhanced LMT bolt a long while ago when it first came out. It would not work reliably in any gun I had, with any carrier combination, or buffer combination and using 55gr M193, XM193 and Q3131a...
Just wouldn't work. LMT took it back and tested it. They told me that the enhanced bolt was designed to work with M855 62gr only, and that 55gr ammo was not up to spec. :eek:
I sold it to someone and explicitly told them what had been found by LMT. That person bought the bolt and used it to great effect with military spec M855.
FWIW, gs430 aka Mike C., is a very prolific internet bash artist. He tried riding ArmaLite for months and months over an AR-10(T) that he had bubba'ed up.
ArmaLite took back his rifle and offered him a brand new one...he still complained for a few months about it.
I'd not place too much stock in what he has to complain about.
So long as he doesn't contact LMT, he can continue to ride them on this issue. It's typical agenda-type BS...
He knows they will make it right. He knows that mistakes happen. I didn't read all 5 pages, but has anyone else chimed in with out-of-spec lugs?
has anyone else chimed in with out-of-spec lugs?
i dont believe so,but i would need to check again to be sure.
The OP's poor handling of the situation aside, is anyone else interested in how LMT high pressure test-fired a bolt that wouldn't lock?
I would take it and send it back to LMT for a new one.
C4
FWIW, gs430 aka Mike C., is a very prolific internet bash artist. He tried riding ArmaLite for months and months over an AR-10(T) that he had bubba'ed up.
ArmaLite took back his rifle and offered him a brand new one...he still complained for a few months about it.
I'd not place too much stock in what he has to complain about.
So long as he doesn't contact LMT, he can continue to ride them on this issue. It's typical agenda-type BS...
He knows they will make it right. He knows that mistakes happen. I didn't read all 5 pages, but has anyone else chimed in with out-of-spec lugs?
Thank God we have rules here against people like gs430.
C4
I just recieved my much anticipated order of uppers and BCG's from LMT last week. Everyone of the bolts are within spec and fit not only into the LMT uppers but several uppers I had lying around. I call the OP's post on TOS bunk as if he had a problem the 1st thing to do is call LMT and with their steller CS it would have been fixed without having to bitch and whine about it on TOS.
I would take it and send it back to LMT for a new one.
C4
Naturally; but I'm wondering if this incident (if it's true) is suggesting that LMT may not be HP/MP testing every bolt. I have no idea at all how the HP testing is done, so I'm quite curious.
Bolts are HP-MP tested in the white, by hand ala fired by hammer, in a fixture. It would depend on the dimensions of the fixture. If passed moved on to the park line.
Interesting. I figured as much, but assumed whatever fixture was used would mimic the dimensions of a new, in-spec barrel extension. However, I guess I can think of ways a fixture would be set up that would accept a bolt with .011 oversize lugs.
Naturally; but I'm wondering if this incident (if it's true) is suggesting that LMT may not be HP/MP testing every bolt. I have no idea at all how the HP testing is done, so I'm quite curious.
HP/MP testing has NOTHING to do with testing the lugs size. So the answer is yes, they are testing their bolts.
C4
HP/MP testing has NOTHING to do with testing the lugs size. So the answer is yes, they are testing their bolts.
C4
If it's proof tested, the bolt would have to fire a proof load. Wouldn't the bolt have to lock up in a barrel extension for that to happen? I believe the thought is, if they were proof fired, the bolts wouldn't lock and would be culled.
I agree, its not a testing issue, its a machining tolerance issue.
The thread on the TOS is a pile of shit. I'd be concerned that there MAY be an issue but the source smells fishy.
I'll stand by and see what happens. ;)
***THIS IS A STAGED POST -- DEMONSTRATING HOW EASY IT IS TO FUDGE MEASUREMENT PICTURES***
These two pictures are of the same COLT bolt and same IN SPEC lug:
Hi-Res of the CORRECT measurement... (http://i18.tinypic.com/7wrr0q8.jpg)
http://i12.tinypic.com/7xayct2.jpg
Hi-Res and FAKED "Out of Spec" measurement... (http://i7.tinypic.com/8181ahk.jpg)
http://i1.tinypic.com/6jytlyf.jpg
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If it's proof tested, the bolt would have to fire a proof load. Wouldn't the bolt have to lock up in a barrel extension for that to happen? I believe the thought is, if they were proof fired, the bolts wouldn't lock and would be culled.
I agree, its not a testing issue, its a machining tolerance issue.
The thread on the TOS is a pile of shit. I'd be concerned that there MAY be an issue but the source smells fishy.
I'll stand by and see what happens. ;)
Depends on how they have things setup for testing.
I don't think there is any need to "stand by and see what happens." Even if LMT put out a bad bolt, its really no big deal. All companies put out lemons from time to time. Let's take even a step farther assume that LMT does NOT HP test. Ever seen a LMT bolt break or fail??? I personally ONLY shoot USGI contracted bolts that are NOT HP tested. I also sell a lot of them. Never have one break or have any issues.
If we stopped buying a companies product every time they put out something bad, then we would have no food to eat, no cars to drive and NO FIREARMS to own.
C4
Thats not an LMT bolt. LMT turns a small radius directly behind the lugs. My eyes also caught the aggressive machine finish on the O.D. of the lugs. It appears to have been turned on a lathe, where as the LMT's I have handled have a much smoother(possible ground) finish.
Thats not an LMT bolt. LMT turns a small radius directly behind the lugs.
Which picture?
If mine, then yes, I know it's not an LMT. Nor did I state it was an LMT.
It's a COLT, from an M16. Probably with about 2,200rds on it.
The point of my two pictures was to show how easy it is for me to misrepresent a precision measurement if needed, or wanted.
Both of my pictures above are the same bolt, same lug, and same caliper.
I saw someone else question his measuring and technique and thought I would duplicate that concern here.
Which picture?
If mine, then yes, I know it's not an LMT. It's a COLT, from an M16. The point of my two pictures was to show how easy it is for me to misrepresent a precision measurement.
Both of my pictures above are the same bolt, same lug, and same caliper.
Gotcha, I thought those where photo's of the "out of spec" bolt.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. :p
There may, indeed, be a problem with those bolts. They may measure 0.288".
However, in reading that thread, I have a real issue with that attitude he is displaying.
It reeks of an agenda. Combined with his past interactions with other AR vendors, I am less than convinced.
Maybe some better photos or a proper measurement technique would go a long way towards making me believe....
At this point, I am skeptical.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. :p
There may, indeed, be a problem with those bolts. They may measure 0.288".
However, in reading that thread, I have a real issue with that attitude he is displaying.
It reeks of an agenda. Combined with his past interactions with other AR vendors, I am less than convinced.
Maybe some better photos or a proper measurement technique would go a long way towards making me believe....
At this point, I am skeptical.
I agree.
Depends on how they have things setup for testing.
I don't think there is any need to "stand by and see what happens." Even if LMT put out a bad bolt, its really no big deal. All companies put out lemons from time to time. Let's take even a step farther assume that LMT does NOT HP test. Ever seen a LMT bolt break or fail??? I personally ONLY shoot USGI contracted bolts that are NOT HP tested. I also sell a lot of them. Never have one break or have any issues.
If we stopped buying a companies product every time they put out something bad, then we would have no food to eat, no cars to drive and NO FIREARMS to own.
C4
I'll stand by and see what happens from a point of curiosity, not from a standpoint of that I think LMT is doing or not doing whatever. If anything, at this point, I think the whole thing is BS.
From a BCG purchase stand point, I've been buying BCM as of late. ;)
just curious if this seem to be a widespread(relatively at least) issue of late?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=352614
i plan to buy anoth BCG for a backup,and wasnt sure if i should move some other items up on the priority list and give this some time to work itself out(if needed and its indeed a real issue).
Hello,
I do not post here or on the AR15 forum much but I do read a lot and purchase quite a bit of products, so I thought I would add a little feedback on this subject since I just ran into this same issue last week.
Anyhow, getting to the point, I just picked up a new L7A3 bolt carrier group to put into my latest rifle MRP build last week and found that the bolt would not lock shut on the lugs. I removed the bolt from the carrier and tried two different other new LMT bolts I had on hand into the same carrier and they both locked up perfectly with the barrel lugs (e.g. I was to lazy to just mic the offending bolt). Short story shorter, I sent an e-mail off to the fine folks at LMT a few days ago to let them know what I found and got a response back the next day from Mr. Swanson to send the bolt in. So I sent the bolt in as he asked a few days ago.
Not a big deal in my book bolts are dirt cheep, and if I was able to help them catch a part going out the line that was a bit out of spec then great. Either way their products and costumer service are still top notch in my book and I will not hesitate to continue to buy their products in the future.
Regards,
Tgrds
I caught that whole thread fiasco on TOS. To stick up for the original poster (gs430) I believe (providing the post is true) that his point was check if you received bolts recently as LMT might be having a QC issue with some bolts slipping through their testing process.
Having just ordered a bolt group and upper from LMT it has me a little concerned. I know they have a back log and I like others would prefer to wait 1,2,3 months for quality parts rather than get shoddy ones quickly. That is why I went with LMT in the first place. It would not be unheard of for a company to drop a few QC steps in order to ship a product quicker (I am not suggesting that LMT would do this). I am currently waiting for a rifle (not LMT) I ordered over 6 months ago. 1st bolt problems (with subcontractor) then they stopped making them and will not be on the line for another 4 months. I do not mind the wait so much due to the fact that I feel confident that the rifle I receive will be top notch.
Shortly after working at a car dealership a tech told me that they were beginning to get in vehicles with engine blocks that were leaking. Turns out that the manufacturer ran out of blocks and began to put reject blocks in the cars to get them out the door. Often the tech would find a chalk mark right where the leak was coming from. This company also sent out rims that were badly out of balance, the rims specific to one model would be 3-6 oz (w/out tire) out of balance on avarage and cause the car to shake even after the wheel and tire were balanced. In both these cases QC was rejected in order to keep the line moving.
My point being that some times corners are cut and things slip through (sometimes even pushed through) in order to meet demand. I agree that it is all in how LMT handles it. From all that I have heard and read it seems that LMT will make thing right if someone has a problem.
Thank God we have rules here against people like gs430.
He reminds me of your old TOS buddy airbiscuit.
He reminds me of your old TOS buddy airbiscuit.
I don't think he was airbiscuit, but his trolling of ArmaLite was so bad on that site that he was banned under his previous username. As you know, banning people for trolling usually takes YEARS. His was about 8 months.
gs430 is at least his second name used...:rolleyes:
Just remember, the longer he doesn't contact LMT the longer he can go on "researching" this issue and giving LMT a "black eye".
Doesn't seem like innocent intentions of warning his fellow shooters, now does it?
I caught that whole thread fiasco on TOS. To stick up for the original poster (gs430) I believe (providing the post is true) that his point was check if you received bolts recently as LMT might be having a QC issue with some bolts slipping through their testing process.
Having just ordered a bolt group and upper from LMT it has me a little concerned. I know they have a back log and I like others would prefer to wait 1,2,3 months for quality parts rather than get shoddy ones quickly. That is why I went with LMT in the first place. It would not be unheard of for a company to drop a few QC steps in order to ship a product quicker (I am not suggesting that LMT would do this). I am currently waiting for a rifle (not LMT) I ordered over 6 months ago. 1st bolt problems (with subcontractor) then they stopped making them and will not be on the line for another 4 months. I do not mind the wait so much due to the fact that I feel confident that the rifle I receive will be top notch.
Shortly after working at a car dealership a tech told me that they were beginning to get in vehicles with engine blocks that were leaking. Turns out that the manufacturer ran out of blocks and began to put reject blocks in the cars to get them out the door. Often the tech would find a chalk mark right where the leak was coming from. This company also sent out rims that were badly out of balance, the rims specific to one model would be 3-6 oz (w/out tire) out of balance on avarage and cause the car to shake even after the wheel and tire were balanced. In both these cases QC was rejected in order to keep the line moving.
My point being that some times corners are cut and things slip through (sometimes even pushed through) in order to meet demand. I agree that it is all in how LMT handles it. From all that I have heard and read it seems that LMT will make thing right if someone has a problem.
LMT would rather be behind than send out a crappy product. You will get a QC checklist with your new upper and if you ordered direct from LMT your BCG will be shipped inside the upper so you will know it fits.
Shihan,
That is what I figured and that is why I went with LMT. The extra $ seem worth it to buy what is considered by most as one of the top 2-3 AR rifles. But thanks for eliminating some of my concern.
He reminds me of your old TOS buddy airbiscuit.
Yes he does.
Another thing that is possible is that this guys barrel extension is out of spec.
C4
I don't think he was airbiscuit, but his trolling of ArmaLite was so bad on that site that he was banned under his previous username. As you know, banning people for trolling usually takes YEARS. His was about 8 months.
gs430 is at least his second name used...:rolleyes:
Just remember, the longer he doesn't contact LMT the longer he can go on "researching" this issue and giving LMT a "black eye".
Doesn't seem like innocent intentions of warning his fellow shooters, now does it?
One of the things that these type of people believe is that they are doing the "community" a service. This makes them "feel" important, which is why they do it. I think they believe that they are "sticking it to the man" by not calling the manufacturer and letting the thread go on and on.
Any normal person would have just called and asked for a new one.
C4
after that thread i took my oldschool manual micrometer to all of my LMT and Colt bolts... they all measured .276-.277... one CMT bolt i had measured .279 (which i suspected since it was a little tight in a Stag upper)...
that thread is typical AR15.com BS... propagated by some "unknown" user... and allowed to run for 8 pages unchecked...
he claims to be a "dealer" and continues to slam LMT... i wonder if LMT knows one of their "dealers" is bashing their products? :rolleyes:
i take the "advice" offered in the tech forums with a grain of salt unless I know who is posting it...
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