View Full Version : SBR How?
I have read, and in some cases re-read the NFA links, posts, etc. I still for the life of me do not understand the process for SBRing a lower. Is there an SBR for dummies or something. A place, person, or entity that goes step by step through the process, forms etc?
I have no clue about trusts and frankly dont want to pay a lawyer to create one for me so I just plan on trying the CLEO, finger print, photo route. I guess if that does not work I'll have no recourse.
I'd like to do the paperwork while I'm home (CONUS) on leave in March so it has some time to get processed before I re-deploy.
I know this has been discussed and maybe I'm thick headed but I really need some advice/help, tutorial, or something to walk through this stuff.
JP
NoveskeFan
01-03-12, 23:36
Get a Form 1 to "manufactur" a firearm. You need two Form 1's, two fingerprint cards, two passport type photos, and one declaration of citizenship (I think that's what it's called). Have your lower engraved with your first & last name, as well as city & state. Check orion arms.com for that. Fill out your paperwork. You will need an idea of what barrel length you plan to run, as the form requires barrel length and over-all length. Once your declaration is filled out and you have your two Form 1's filled out, take the Form 1's to your Chief LEO for sign off... And get your fingerprint cards done there as well. Once your lower is in hand and you have all the paperwork, send the two Form1's, both fingerprint cards with photos, the citizenship form and a check for $200 to the NFA.
The forms are available from the NFA website.
I don't think I missed anything, but the "how to SBR your lower" thread is a good one to read all of.
You have read this and still are confused?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9830
I have read, and in some cases re-read the NFA links, posts, etc. I still for the life of me do not understand the process for SBRing a lower. Is there an SBR for dummies or something. A place, person, or entity that goes step by step through the process, forms etc?
I have no clue about trusts and frankly dont want to pay a lawyer to create one for me so I just plan on trying the CLEO, finger print, photo route. I guess if that does not work I'll have no recourse.
I'd like to do the paperwork while I'm home (CONUS) on leave in March so it has some time to get processed before I re-deploy.
I know this has been discussed and maybe I'm thick headed but I really need some advice/help, tutorial, or something to walk through this stuff.
JP
You have read this and still are confused?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9830
Yep, call me slow but never having delt with the BATF on restricted items it seems harder to me to understand than you guys who have been through the process.
Get a Form 1 to "manufactur" a firearm. You need two Form 1's, two fingerprint cards, two passport type photos, and one declaration of citizenship (I think that's what it's called). Have your lower engraved with your first & last name, as well as city & state. Check orion arms.com for that. Fill out your paperwork. You will need an idea of what barrel length you plan to run, as the form requires barrel length and over-all length. Once your declaration is filled out and you have your two Form 1's filled out, take the Form 1's to your Chief LEO for sign off... And get your fingerprint cards done there as well. Once your lower is in hand and you have all the paperwork, send the two Form1's, both fingerprint cards with photos, the citizenship form and a check for $200 to the NFA.
The forms are available from the NFA website.
I don't think I missed anything, but the "how to SBR your lower" thread is a good one to read all of.
Should I get the forms done first in case the CLEO refuses to sign the forms? I really have no idea how my CLEO is with regards to NFA weapons/items so if I engrave first and have to end up going another route I've screwed up right? Also what is the citizenship form, I don't see that on the ATF site?
JP
viperashes
01-04-12, 00:58
Should I get the forms done first in case the CLEO refuses to sign the forms? I really have no idea how my CLEO is with regards to NFA weapons/items so if I engrave first and have to end up going another route I've screwed up right? Also what is the citizenship form, I don't see that on the ATF site?
JP
Technically, the form doesn't even need to be filled out before the CLEO signs it. What my best advice to you is, is to actually go meet him before you ever bring any forms. Show up empty handed, because first impressions are lasting. Go schedule an appointment to meet him and just sit down and talk to him and let him know your intentions. I wouldn't bring the forms with you, even if he asks if you have them with you, it leaves a better impression if you schedule another appointment to drop them off to him to sign. To me, it just means that you're not just going to see him to get something from him for nothing. I think the man will respect that and you will probably get much farther than just showing up and asking him to sign some papers.
If you Form 1 as an individual, you are to engrave your name on the lower, if you do it as a trust, the trust's name is supposed to be engraved, so yes. Find out if your CLEO will sign off the papers first before you do any engraving. I know the CLEO, fingerprints, photos requirement has been talked about getting removed, but I'm unsure if it has officially gone away yet or if it is still required. I'd have to double check, or someone may be able to answer better than I.
I believe the form you are talking about is the 'certification of compliance' as it's called on the ATF website.
Again I apoligize that I need this all broken down Barney style for me but I'm just not getting it all. As far as a trust, If I decided to go that route do I have to pay a lawyer an large amount of money to do one correctly, is it something I could do at a Military Legal office? It seems more difficult in some ways the trust route except that you don't need your CLEO signature, finger prints, or photo.
JP
If you read Scottryan's tutorial, and you still don't understand how to do it yourself, maybe you should just stick to 16" rifles.
What state are you in? And have you considered buying a factory made SBR? If you go that route rather than building one yourself then at least there's nothing to engrave.
Reagans Rascals
01-04-12, 11:25
if making it yourself:
buy a quality lower
have it engraved with Trust or Personal Info (Name, City)
Submit ATF Form 1 with $200 check for Tax Stamp
wait for Form 1 approval and stamp
receive Form 1 approval and stamp
put upper on lower and enjoy
if purchasing a factory made SBR:
purchase weapon from the dealer/maker
submit ATF Form 4 with $200 check for Tax Stamp
wait for Form 4 approval and stamp
receive Form 4 approval and stamp
pick up weapon and enjoy
I found this link to be the best and most thorough step by step for the process... as it even gives you examples of what the forms look like completed etc...
http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html
It was last updated in 2009 so some things might have changed but it looks accurate still.
Technically, the form doesn't even need to be filled out before the CLEO signs it. What my best advice to you is, is to actually go meet him before you ever bring any forms. Show up empty handed, because first impressions are lasting. Go schedule an appointment to meet him and just sit down and talk to him and let him know your intentions. I wouldn't bring the forms with you, even if he asks if you have them with you, it leaves a better impression if you schedule another appointment to drop them off to him to sign. To me, it just means that you're not just going to see him to get something from him for nothing. I think the man will respect that and you will probably get much farther than just showing up and asking him to sign some papers.
My take is kind of the opposite of this. I personally didn't know if my CLEO would sign. I just left both Form1's with his secretary in an envelope with my name and phone number on it. I told her that there were documents inside for him to sign. A couple of weeks later I got a call to come pick them up. It wasn't complicated at all. I don't think that making your CLEO think that it's a big deal to sign is a good idea. I also don't think that talking to him about it ahead of time is a good idea because it may give him the impression that you believe he has an option. If you just drop off the Form 1's, he'll know that your expectation is that he signs them. If he won't or requests a meeting, then make an appointment with him. Assuming that he does sign, be sure to donate $$$ to his reelection campaign.
First thing is that you need to determine if your home state or duty station state even allows them.
Then, you start the process. If I were you, I would keep it simple and buy a Colt 6933, do the paperwork (Form 4, fingerprints and photos) and then wait for the return.
Especially if you are having a hard time grasping the info already posted.
Should I get the forms done first in case the CLEO refuses to sign the forms? I really have no idea how my CLEO is with regards to NFA weapons/items so if I engrave first and have to end up going another route I've screwed up right? Also what is the citizenship form, I don't see that on the ATF site?
JP
.
Especially if you are having a hard time grasping the info already posted.
True.
Its really not as difficult as it sounds.
It looks like a ton of stuff when on paper, when you go through the process its not so bad.
Im not really a fan of the "SBR your lower thread" as it lacks steps.
Order a Form 1 packet
Fill it out
Get fingerprinted and attach photos
Send your lower off to be engraved
Wait
Quiet-Matt
01-04-12, 17:15
Then, if you plan to take your SBR into another state, you'll need to submit a Form 5320.20
I live a stones throw from two state lines, so I keep a stack of these "permission slips" in my bag. Good news is that you can fill 'em out for a year.
If you move or make a perminent change to the OAL of the SBR, you'll have to notify the NFA branch.
Here's a link to the Form 1 online.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/
It's about half way down. Click the link and a template will appear that you can fill in. You can save it to your computer. Take it one number at a time. We can walk you through what to put in each box.
If you're from fayetteville or cumberland county your gonna need a trust. The CLEO won't sign. If you live on post its your own risk. Go talk to Martin at guns plus and he'll explain it. I wouldn't buy anything there unless you research a lot and know you are getting a good deal. Good luck and if you have any questions just pm me.
Anyone have updated version of the CLEO signoff?
Is it gone yet? Or is it states that are doing away with it or....?
There has been no change to the CLEO signature yet.
Anyone have updated version of the CLEO signoff?
Is it gone yet? Or is it states that are doing away with it or....?
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't NC require that you be engaged in Research and Development in order to get SBR's, etc...
If you're from fayetteville or cumberland county your gonna need a trust. The CLEO won't sign. If you live on post its your own risk. Go talk to Martin at guns plus and he'll explain it. I wouldn't buy anything there unless you research a lot and know you are getting a good deal. Good luck and if you have any questions just pm me.
Correct me if I am wrong. Doesn't NC require that you be engaged in Research and Development in order to get SBR's, etc...
I read that too once after I had already gotten mine. I had no trouble with my forms though. I lived in harnett county and the cleo there is very military friendly. He will sign anything for a soldier. If your familiar with the ft bragging area his county is mostly country. That could have something to do with it. If I remember I put training and home defense in the purpose box. The sheriff asked me right away and laughed of course because he knew I was kinda bullshitting with a 7" bbl ar but he signed. Took two days.
From what I read was that someone had a problem taking their sbr to nc for the research and developement purpose. I think it was he got approved once then disapproved the next time so he had to put it for that. IMHO I think that's more about the examiner who gets your forms to approve or not.
Filling out my first form 1 now for my sbr build. I am going the trust route and that is where I am having a little confusion. Hopefully this info will benefit others, so I hope this isn't a hi-jack.
I have a couple questions before I get finished.
1. Box 2- For a trust I should mark "Corporation or other Business Entity" Correct?
2. Box 3a- Should that include the name of my trust?
3. Box 3b- That is the trust name and my address, correct?
4. Box 4b- Type of firearm to be made, would this be "short barreled rifle"?
5. Box 4h- "Additional Description"- Should I put the information that I am having engraved? Trust name and location?
6. Boxes 7, 8, 9- I sign box 7 , and date box 9, but box 8 has me confused. Is anything included in box 8 for a trust? It looks like I put "Grantor and Trustee."
7. I am leaving boxes 12 and 13 blank, Correct?
Lastly I only include pages 1 and 2 on a single sheet of paper, correct? The last 2 pages are for my use and not required is what I am seeing.
There has been no change to the CLEO signature yet.
Thats what I thought.
Im seeing all kinds of stuff on it but nothing concrete that says No.
Filling out my first form 1 now for my sbr build. I am going the trust route and that is where I am having a little confusion. Hopefully this info will benefit others, so I hope this isn't a hi-jack.
I have a couple questions before I get finished.
1. Box 2- For a trust I should mark "Corporation or other Business Entity" Correct?
2. Box 3a- Should that include the name of my trust?
3. Box 3b- That is the trust name and my address, correct?
4. Box 4b- Type of firearm to be made, would this be "short barreled rifle"?
5. Box 4h- "Additional Description"- Should I put the information that I am having engraved? Trust name and location?
6. Boxes 7, 8, 9- I sign box 7 , and date box 9, but box 8 has me confused. Is anything included in box 8 for a trust? It looks like I put "Grantor and Trustee."
7. I am leaving boxes 12 and 13 blank, Correct?
Lastly I only include pages 1 and 2 on a single sheet of paper, correct? The last 2 pages are for my use and not required is what I am seeing.
I'm curious too.
I too am new at the NFA process, and I decided to go the trust route. I had an attorney that specializes in NFA Trusts set up my paperwork, and it will all be notarized when I get back CONUS at the end of the month. I still have questions, but it is getting a bit clearer. Luckily for me my attorney added go-by's on how to fill out either the Form 1's or Form 4's:smile:
I will start by engraving one of my extra lowers, sending in all the required paperwork with Form 1 and $200 USD, and waiting for ATF to approve my stamp. I will buy the upper when I get the stamp.
RE CLEO sign off
On first request our towns firearms officer would not sign anything.
I requested a meeting with the chief, brought some DD and LaRue brochures and some of my competition results. Explained I wanted to build a compact AR for competiotion.
He said , "Oh, I see" and signed.
YMMV
MilitaryArms
01-08-12, 09:56
This video will walk you through the application process. It also tells you where to get everything you will need document wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ONqI3_QOI
I hope it helps.
This video will walk you through the application process. It also tells you where to get everything you will need document wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ONqI3_QOI
I hope it helps.
Thanks for the video. I think the wait times have changed since you made it but I guess that just happens. Anyway I'm hoping to make my first foray into the NFA world in the not-too-distant future and I found your video quite helpful.
This video will walk you through the application process. It also tells you where to get everything you will need document wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ONqI3_QOI
I hope it helps.
Thanks,
I'll watch it when I get home, the SYSADMIN Nazis blocked Youtube here for some reason.
//break//
Is there a difference in the requirements for purchasinga factory SBR? I know you would have to do the Form 4 transfer but do you still have to send off the lower to be engraved?
JP
A Form 4 is used to transfer an item that is already built. Since it is a factory SBR you are not manufacturing anything- you are transferring it.
Thanks,
I'll watch it when I get home, the SYSADMIN Nazis blocked Youtube here for some reason.
//break//
Is there a difference in the requirements for purchasinga factory SBR? I know you would have to do the Form 4 transfer but do you still have to send off the lower to be engraved?
JP
A Form 4 is used to transfer an item that is already built. Since it is a factory SBR you are not manufacturing anything- you are transferring it.
So it's actually easier to buy a factory SBR than "build" one?
JP
The process is exactly the same. Except you have to engrave one if you build it.
With a factory SBR you get it as they want it and not necessarily how you want it. They are more than likely going to charge you for any additions and changes.
So it's actually easier to buy a factory SBR than "build" one?
JP
turdbocharged
01-11-12, 09:05
So If going with a Form 4 for say a 6933 do you purchase the rifle before CLEO signs? I ask this because of the serial #.
So it's actually easier to buy a factory SBR than "build" one?
From a paperwork standpoint, it's pretty much the same other than you're having to deal with the FFL. From a time involved in building standpoint, it just depends. If you're building it yourself, you can't start until the Form 1 is approved. Add to that time how long it takes you to do the build. If you're buying on a Form 4, then the time involved just depends. When I bought my Rock River 9mm SBR, I literally ended up waiting almost an entire year. RR had to put it in their production schedule which took months, once they built it they had to wait on the ATF for paperwork to be approved, they then shipped it to my FFL who then had to wait for the Form 4 to be approved. I've recently purchased a Colt 6933. It was in stock at the gun shop, so we're just waiting on the Form 4 now.
So If going with a Form 4 for say a 6933 do you purchase the rifle before CLEO signs? I ask this because of the serial #.
Yes, you have to pay for the rifle before the dealer will put the serial number on the Form 4. Of couse, with a Form 1, you have to have the rifle (or receiver) before you send off the Form 1. So, they're pretty much the same in that regard.
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