10.3", 10.5" or 11.5"? Also, silencer questions [Archive]

ColdDeadHands

01-04-12, 19:55

BCmJUnKie

01-04-12, 20:01

Its a preference question.

Youre gonna get all kinds of opinions and recommendations.

What ranges you shoot at? Distance?

What is it for? Vehicle? Home?

I love my 11.5", but its mine. Of course Im gonna say that.

An inch longer than 10.5" isnt much and you get that much more velocity and reliability. However a well built 10.5 is gonna run great also, guys here can vouch that and never experience problems.

Im going with a 12.5" next. These are what suit my needs and the ranges and area I work with. YMMV.

Im not gonna touch on the suppressor question as I dont have it yet, my experience is form pictures only

Iraqgunz

01-04-12, 21:23

In my opinion it seems as if the 10.5" or 10.3" uppers leave you very little room for clearing rails, etc... if you want to use it suppressed.

1 inch in my book is not enough to be concerned about so I would go with an 11.5" suppressed. Then add an AAC Mini4 or Surefire Mini.

You should seriously give some consideration to a 10" Centurion Arms rail. Easy(ier) installation, solid rail and can be disassembled if needed.

matemike

01-04-12, 21:37

Most mfgs. recommend using their can with absolutely nothing less than a 10.5" barrel. So my approach is: why try to even gamble on that? Ensure that is is GTG with one more little inch. And still run the 10" rail. You'll be less likely to have accidental powder blast on your support hand's thumb or fingers.

Whatever you do, don't make the mistake I did and go even shorter, like pistol length. I have a 7.5" SBR that is "just fun" at it's best. I am now pursuing an 11.5" build to be in the middle ground between my 16" and 7.5" guns. Plus, the benefits of a 11.5" are some 70% better and more reliable than a 10.5"

Also keep this in mind, BCM, a very well proclaimed manufacturer does not make 10.5's...they make 11.5's though.

All just my ywo cents.

wahoo95

01-04-12, 22:07

I have to agree with IG on this one. I have an 11.5" and can't see anything that I give up to the 10.5" but do gain a few things. My 11.5" BCM has a 10.0 Lite rail and its very nice, however after installing 10" C4 rails on a few other builds and most recently my 11.5" 300blk upper I am sold on their design! Plus they can be had at a good price and install super simple.

CoryCop25

01-04-12, 22:25

A 10 Lite rail with a 10.3 barrel and an AAC 51 tooth adapter will not work. A 9 inch rail will look and work fine. I have a rifle with the very same configuration and it is very light and is very easy to drive the gun. I have been looking into a 12.5 configuration lately.

BCmJUnKie

01-04-12, 22:28

I would listen to IG...

I had the same question about a year ago, he told me about the same thing. I went 11.5" and Im glad I listened.

I didnt go with the Centurion on this one, but the 12.5" will.

I just wish they would make a damn 11" rail already!:secret:

Adam_s

01-05-12, 07:50

11.5" systems have a LOT better dwell time, and are less harsh on themselves (and whatever suppressor they host). An extra 1" of length is not a whole lot to trade off for those benefits to me.

I'll be dropping the coin on 11.5" uppers for my SBR's.
-Adam

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 08:27

Thanks for the input everybody! I was leaning towards a 11.5" upper anyways. I wish I could see one of the Centurion Arms rails in person.

scottryan

01-05-12, 08:50

I currently run a custom Colt 11.5" barrel with a 10" centurion rail.

I use a AAC M4-2000 silencer.

I prefer a 10" rail over a 9" rail as I can get my hand further out on the gun.

rob_s

01-05-12, 08:52

Well, I'm thinking about doing a SBR build. What barrel length should I go with and why? Also, I'm looking to have a 10" rail mounted on it...most likely a DD RIS II or Lite Rail. Will the AAC Mini-4 Silencer with 51T Flash hider work on a 10.3" or 10.5" Barrel & 10" rail?

As a general rule, 1" difference between rail and barrel length for can mounting of non-reflex cans. As an example, the longest rail you can use on a 10.5" barrel is a "9.5" rail (which really doesn't exist very often, but you get the point).

So, if you're fixated on a 10.0 rail you need at least an 11" barrel, and the next common length is 11.5", so there's your answer.

However...

If you want to mount something like an Ops can, which is a reflex design, the 11.5" barrel and 9.0 rail are PERFECT for each other. When I was getting into cans and SBRs I planned my first one based around this information.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1757-Small.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1758-Small.jpg

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 11:25

As a general rule, 1" difference between rail and barrel length for can mounting of non-reflex cans. As an example, the longest rail you can use on a 10.5" barrel is a "9.5" rail (which really doesn't exist very often, but you get the point).

So, if you're fixated on a 10.0 rail you need at least an 11" barrel, and the next common length is 11.5", so there's your answer.

However...

If you want to mount something like an Ops can, which is a reflex design, the 11.5" barrel and 9.0 rail are PERFECT for each other. When I was getting into cans and SBRs I planned my first one based around this information.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1757-Small.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1758-Small.jpg

Thanks for the info & pics. How much length does the Ops Can add to the end of the muzzle device? It doesn't look like much but pics can be misleading.

scottryan

01-05-12, 11:45

Thanks for the info & pics. How much length does the Ops Can add to the end of the muzzle device? It doesn't look like much but pics can be misleading.

Length added to weapon is a low concern. It is probably between 5 or 6 inches for the Ops Inc can pictured.

The most important factors are point of aim shift, durability, and method of attachment.

The next important factor after those is weight.

Length added and the amount of sound reduction are not as important as the silencer companies would lead you to believe. All high-end leading brands will sound the same to the human ear, regardless of published reduction numbers or what a sound meter says.

WEC

01-05-12, 11:50

I had a 10.5" and liked it enough but now I have a 11.5" and a 12.5" Kino and I thoroughly enjoy both of them.

In my limited experience I found that the Surefire Mini/SBR platform combination didn't give me the sound and/or flash suppression that I was looking for. The Mini works pretty well on 14.5" and 16" barrels, and does a great job of keeping down additional OAL on those applications.

In the end, as many have stated previously, it boils down to a preference thing.

Jmacken37

01-05-12, 11:54

I'd go with 11.5" in a heavier weight barrel to minimize POI shifts and maximize reliability.

Jake

Cameron

01-05-12, 12:40

This is all the barrel you have left with a 10.5" barrel and a 10" DD lite rail.

10.5" LMT barrel with 10" DD Lite rail
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6208/6079771599_2af4e2de5a_b.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5179/5405301130_70c9e8f530_b.jpg

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/1010-1.jpg

I believe it might be possible to mount a Surefire can if you use the MB556K-SB mount, I am going to try it...

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/MB556K-SB-2.jpg

Cameron

rob_s

01-05-12, 12:50

I'd go with 11.5" in a heavier weight barrel to minimize POI shifts and maximize reliability.

Jake

What amount of shift have you seen in your use that leads you to this conclusion or concern?

scottryan

01-05-12, 13:05

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 13:16

Length added to weapon is a low concern.

Says who? Also, concerning poi shift and durability...I believe there are no concerns when going with AAC or Surefire.

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 13:17

I believe it might be possible to mount a Surefire can if you use the MB556K-SB mount, I am going to try it...

http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/MB556K-SB-2.jpg

Cameron

Cool, let us know if it mounts up!

wahoo95

01-05-12, 13:18

Says who? Also, concerning poi shift and durability...I believe there are no concerns when going with AAC or Surefire.

I love AAC cans, however Surefire is known for having less POI shift

scottryan

01-05-12, 14:01

Says who? Also, concerning poi shift and durability...I believe there are no concerns when going with AAC or Surefire.

Says people who have experience with this.

Most leading brands will have a similar length added to weapon and will typically be withing 1/2" of one another or less. There are more important things to worry about when picking a silencer.

Surefire has less POI shift than AAC.

AAC is more durable than Surefire.

munch520

01-05-12, 14:11

Aren't some of those up to the OP to decide based on budget, end use, preference, etc?

Shift isn't an issue if he's looking for a dedicated upper. Mounting/QD options may not be a consideration either. maybe he's shooting for sub "X" OAL?

rob_s

01-05-12, 14:24

https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/charts/5-56-sound-suppressors

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 15:03

Says people who have experience with this.

Most leading brands will have a similar length added to weapon and will typically be withing 1/2" of one another or less. There are more important things to worry about when picking a silencer.

Surefire has less POI shift than AAC.

AAC is more durable than Surefire.

So why go the sbr route in the first place? Obviously if this is used for HD or in a vehicle I want the shortest OAL I can get. Sure, POI shift is important but to me OAL is more important as I don't plan on taking it off much. Therefore it must be durable and as short as I can possibly get it.

scottryan

01-05-12, 16:05

So why go the sbr route in the first place? Obviously if this is used for HD or in a vehicle I want the shortest OAL I can get.

+/-1 an inch is not going to be noticed in the field.

Sure, POI shift is important but to me OAL is more important as I don't plan on taking it off much. Therefore it must be durable and as short as I can possibly get it.

You'll change your mind on that once you have to start carrying it around all day with the silencer attached. Your gun will have it unattached more often than attached.

scottryan

01-05-12, 16:12

OP,

I would quit analyzing this situation and get an 11.5" barrel with a full size KAC, AAC, or SF silencer. This set up will be the most effective/versatile for any possible scenario you find yourself in and be the most trouble free as far as performance.

You are thinking way to much into this.

Scott

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 17:44

I didn't know that making an informed decision equals "over-thinking".:confused:
I already decided (thanks to the helpful responses in this thread) that if I go the SBR route I will go with a 11.5" Barrel.
Surefire & AAC are reputable manufacturers and I don't think they'd put out a shitty product (mini silencers). I would like to hear from more people who own one of them. Pictures are welcome.

ColdDeadHands

01-05-12, 17:46

https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/charts/5-56-sound-suppressors

Thanks for yet another good & helpful chart! :D
You got a few missing tho...

Cameron

01-05-12, 18:44

IMHO setups like this are unsafe as it is too easy to get fingers past the handgaurd and have them blasted by the muzzle blast.

It has never happened in thousands of rounds and probably more than 20 people that have shot my SBR. What you hypothesize would be the same as someone reaching forward of the rail on a rifle with a longer barrel, grabbing the barrel instead of the rail and still pulling the trigger.

Cameron

scottryan

01-05-12, 19:40

CoryCop25

01-05-12, 22:39

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Mega%20Billet%20SBR/P1010176.jpg

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Mega%20Billet%20SBR/P1010178.jpg

Without the can:
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/AR-15%20Accessories/IMAG0160.jpg

Mega Arms Midlength Mono upper. Specs state that it is an 8.84 inch rail. The barrel is a DD CHF 10.3 with an AAC Breakout and an AAC Mini4. This isn't an 11.5 (obviously) but it gives you an idea of the distance between the front of the rail and the back of the can.

Sorry, the NFA won't let me tell you about the performance of the can.......yet:rolleyes:

OAL of the rifle with the stock extended to where I shoot it is 35 inches.
OAL is 31 inches without the can.

floyd

01-05-12, 23:08

Start off with a 10.5 inch. Like most of the other posters you will end up owning an 11.5 and/or a 12.5. They all will function well if set up right. If you start with a longer barrel, you will probably want to get a 10.5 incher sooner than starting with an 11.5 and yearning for a 10.5er.
You would be suprised how much difference an inch makes as far as portability.

snackgunner

01-05-12, 23:22

I don't like mini style silencers. They are too much of a compromise.

Could you elaborate on this?

doriwoogie

01-06-12, 01:20

I'm with WEC on this; on a 10.5" compared to the regular size cans, the mini can (Surefire in this case) was rather underwhelming. It was still quite loud to the ear, and there was a considerable fireball out the front. This is not a dig at Surefire though, as the can does perform well on the longer barrels (on a 16"). I cannot speak to the AAC mini performance as I do not have any hands on with that one.

To the OP, you've mentioned HD and vehicles so I'm guessing any performance improvements from 10.5" to 11.5" would not be a deal breaker for you since it would all be short range. I would offer the suggestion that you save the inch on the barrel and go with a 10.5" with a full size can for better suppressor performance. I think you will be more satisfied with the performance of the full size suppressor. Also, just for comparison purposes with one of the above posts, mine (10.5" with AAC M4-2k, CTR with the thick buttpad) with the stock extended to where I shoot from (1 out from the fully collapsed position) is 33" with the can.

Just for fun, here's a pic of the Surefire mini can on a friend's sbr.
http://www.dori-dori.net/images/guns/surefiremini.jpg

dpaqu

01-06-12, 16:20

I’ll add to the options you need to weigh.

The AAC SPR M4 suppressor will fit on a 11.5” barrel if you use a switchblock or a short low profile gas block. It sticks out the same 5 inches (5.5”?) as the M4-2000 but is a little quieter and about 4oz heavier.

doriwoogie

01-06-12, 17:47

Here's a picture for your reference for over-all length.
http://www.dori-dori.net/images/guns/sbr-length.jpg

ColdDeadHands

01-06-12, 19:59

Thanks for the pics & reference measurements everybody!

ColdDeadHands

01-06-12, 20:01

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Mega%20Billet%20SBR/P1010176.jpg

Sorry, the NFA won't let me tell you about the performance of the can.......yet:rolleyes:

You have the Can in hand but can't use it? :confused:
Let me know how you like it once you get to shoot it.:D

CoryCop25

01-06-12, 20:37

You have the Can in hand but can't use it? :confused:
Let me know how you like it once you get to shoot it.:D

The can is at the shop waiting for the Form 4 to clear. I was able to put it on my rifle and snap some pictures and then, unfortunately, I had to put the can back in the box...:cray:

jp0319

01-07-12, 06:43

So why go the sbr route in the first place? Obviously if this is used for HD or in a vehicle I want the shortest OAL I can get. Sure, POI shift is important but to me OAL is more important as I don't plan on taking it off much. Therefore it must be durable and as short as I can possibly get it.

I will say first I am an NFA Noob and am learning, but if you dont plan on removing the suppressor much why not go with a screw on like the AAC Ranger 2. It offers better performance than the Mini 4 but not much more length?

JP

rob_s

01-07-12, 06:50

I will say first I am an NFA Noob and am learning, but if you dont plan on removing the suppressor much why not go with a screw on like the AAC Ranger 2. It offers better performance than the Mini 4 but not much more length?

JP

A friend of mine has a DD 10.3" A1-profile barrel with a Gemtech Trek-T (http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/TREK-T-9p51.htm) as a dedicated suppressed gun and it's pretty tits. Light weight, no concern with POI shift, and if the can becomes "stuck" due to carbon build-up who cares?!

I've considered replicating his gun but by cutting down a 16" LW DD barrel to optimize gas port sizing (although I'm reluctant to bring that up here...).

M4Guru

01-07-12, 07:11

Cool, let us know if it mounts up!

With the 212A or 215A (they have the safe shelf behind the mounting flange) you can put a SF can on that setup. It works on the factory DD MK18 upper as well (10.3/RISII).

dpaqu

01-07-12, 15:30

You'll change your mind on that once you have to start carrying it around all day with the silencer attached. Your gun will have it unattached more often than attached.

I don’t have my AAC SDN-6 suppressor yet but after handling it I think there is a lot of truth to this statement.

A friend of mine has a DD 10.3" A1-profile barrel with a Gemtech Trek-T (http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/TREK-T-9p51.htm) as a dedicated suppressed gun and it's pretty tits. Light weight, no concern with POI shift, and if the can becomes "stuck" due to carbon build-up who cares?!

If you don’t intend to remove the suppressor much and don’t mind the lack of versatility I think what rob mentions sounds badass. Having a sub 7lb suppressed gun with a barrel+suppressor length under 16” sounds pretty good.

I'd love to see some db comparison tests on that can.

Pappabear

01-07-12, 17:54

I have a 11.5 and 12.5 with AAC cans. They work very well. I also have a Mini4, its just in lock up. When I get the AAC Mini 4, Markm and I are going to do a Comparison Video. The audio won't be perfect, but it should be good for comparative reasons with our subjective feedback.

I run DD- RISII and Lite rails.

ColdDeadHands

01-07-12, 21:32

markm

01-08-12, 08:30

Yeah... me too. ****ing ATF has a few juicy stamps that belong to Pappabear.

Seems the only thing they do fast is get guns into the cartels' hands.

Atg336

01-08-12, 10:11

To the OP:
I highly recommend you do some reading in regards to barrel length, gas port size, bullet dwell time, "Hoop Stress", etc., and how all these you have to consider before buying a certain length suppressor.
Rule of thumb - the shorter the barrel, the longer the suppressor you need if you expect the suppressor to last its lifetime and not add to the inherent issues/malfunctions shorter barreled AR systems face. Last thing you need is a suppressor failure.

Run to your nearest smoke shop/Barnes & Noble/grocery store and pick up Surefire's Combat Tactics Fall 2011 issue. In the back of the magazine is a very unbiased, scientific article about the problems of SBR's and associated suppression issues. GemTech's Philip Dater and Jason Wong wrote the study so it's credible; plenty of data. I learned plenty I didn't know.

http://www.defensereview.com/latest-issue-of-surefire-combat-tactics-magazine-fall-2011-out-so-go-pick-it-up/

Atg336

01-08-12, 10:49

Here is a few links google gave me in a few minutes, ranging from egg-head study to GemTech's FAQ section. I do as much research as I can before committing to something that I will have to have on paper with BATF.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jam/2011/961457/

- skip to the last section; 4.3.

http://counterstrikefox.freeservers.com/mv.htm

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=7#19

Hope some of this helps.

scottryan

01-08-12, 17:02

Could you elaborate on this?

Drawbacks of mini style silencers:

1. They are louder than their full size counterparts by a noticeable amount.
2. They have a shorter life due to less baffles.
3. If you want to use your silencer on a bolt gun, a full size silencer is more versatile and effective at reducing sound.

Mini style silencer are made to "take the edge off" of muzzle blast for inside building work or firing in/around vehicles.

They are not a general use silencer and I would not buy one until I had a full size 5.56 and 7.62 silencer.

dpaqu

01-08-12, 17:19

rcpd34

01-08-12, 18:54

I have an 11" SBR with an AAC Omni and it's ok. It takes the bark out of it, but that's about it. Cans have their work cut out for them with SBR's.

TehLlama

01-09-12, 02:37

I think the shorter life thing is overplayed. Inconel mini cans should last a long time. I've seen cast inconel (nickel alloy) turbo manifolds get cherry red thousands of times without problems. Granted they are not getting blasted by unburned gunpowder.

I really want to hear a mini can in person. Even solid comparison data does not convey the importance of tone.

Inconel and similar alloys are extremely impressive at high temperatures, but they tend to become ductile and in any ablative application they will take a beating.

That said, you'll have worn out that barrel before it really matters, and unless you're really putting round count through it we'll have better silencer tech anyway. If you're shooting factory ammo to get there, the cost of the upper and can replacement is utterly negligible.

lasvegasone

01-09-12, 10:43

scottryan,
What do you think of the Colt 6933 11.5" with the AAC Mk4 2000 on it? Do you run a AAC Blackout or Brakeout muzzle mount?

scottryan

01-09-12, 12:22

scottryan,
What do you think of the Colt 6933 11.5" with the AAC Mk4 2000 on it? Do you run a AAC Blackout or Brakeout muzzle mount?

That will work fine and I use that setup, except I have a low pro gas block on the 11.5" barrel with a 10" centurion rail.

I use a Blackout flash hider.