View Full Version : Do "Poor People" Have All Their Constitutional Rights...?
OK first things first, by "poor people" I mean ONLY THAT. I don't mean convicted felons, drug addicts, mental people or anything else. I mean "poor people."
For the purpose of this discussion a man who simply lost his job and most of his savings for whatever reason.
1. If he doesn't own a car and doesn't have a CCW permit how does he get his gun and ammunition to a range legally to shoot? What about if he is simply taking it to his buddies house? 200 years ago he could have slung his loaded weapon and legally went anywhere.
2. If he is homeless and has no physical address how can he legally purchase a firearm? How does he fill out a 4473 with no proof of residency? 200 years ago no such regulation existed.
3. If he is homeless how does he legally possess and store his firearm? How does he legally keep it ready to defend his life just as any homeowner would? Without a physical address he could not get a CCW if he wanted to. Does that mean he no longer has the right to be armed and defend himself? 200 years ago homeless people who we called "pioneers" always had their weapons.
4. If the police encounter and search such a person, will they confiscate his property? Is the crime simply being "poor" and "armed"?
montanadave
01-08-12, 15:55
The inability to show proof of residency not only affects an individual's right to bear arms, but their right to vote as well.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 16:03
OK first things first, by "poor people" I mean ONLY THAT. I don't mean convicted felons, drug addicts, mental people or anything else. I mean "poor people."
For the purpose of this discussion a man who simply lost his job and most of his savings for whatever reason.
1. If he doesn't own a car and doesn't have a CCW permit how does he get his gun and ammunition to a range legally to shoot? What about if he is simply taking it to his buddies house? 200 years ago he could have slung his loaded weapon and legally went anywhere.
2. If he is homeless and has no physical address how can he legally purchase a firearm? How does he fill out a 4473 with no proof of residency? 200 years ago no such regulation existed.
3. If he is homeless how does he legally possess and store his firearm? How does he legally keep it ready to defend his life just as any homeowner would? Without a physical address he could not get a CCW if he wanted to. Does that mean he no longer has the right to be armed and defend himself? 200 years ago homeless people who we called "pioneers" always had their weapons.
4. If the police encounter and search such a person, will they confiscate his property? Is the crime simply being "poor" and "armed"?
If someone is so poor they cannot afford a roof over their head or a vehicle how are they going to afford the cost of range memberships, CCW fees, ammunition, and firearms?
In many states homeless are permitted to use the address of the bridge they live under when enrolling for state benefits.
In the end worrying about the homeless is slightly behind the amount of time I spend worrying about the possibilty of the Yellowstone super volcano erupting in my lifetime. There are just so many more immediate issues on my plate that I will leave this one to the ACLU lawyers.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 16:03
The inability to show proof of residency not only affects an individual's right to bear arms, but their right to vote as well.
That is untrue in most states that I am aware of.
If someone is so poor they cannot afford a roof over their head or a vehicle how are they going to afford the cost of range memberships, CCW fees, ammunition, and firearms?
In many states homeless are permitted to use the address of the bridge they live under when enrolling for state benefits.
In the end worrying about the homeless is slightly behind the amount of time I spend worrying about the possibilty of the Yellowstone super volcano erupting in my lifetime. There are just so many more immediate issues on my plate that I will leave this one to the ACLU lawyers.
I imagine if most of us were homeless, we'd do whatever is necessary to budget a means of personal protection, especially given how "at risk" homeless people are.
I surmise a day laborer could more effectively save up for a handgun than a car or a apartment. So does that fact that he might live under a bridge mean he should not be allowed to own a firearm?
I specifically raised the issue of CCW and how it's cost could be construed as infringement.
And I understand most aren't concerned with the rights of others unless it potentially effects them.
The inability to show proof of residency not only affects an individual's right to bear arms, but their right to vote as well.
Really? Lots of states (and the DOJ) would beg to differ...
If someone is so poor they cannot afford a roof over their head or a vehicle how are they going to afford the cost of range memberships, CCW fees, ammunition, and firearms?
In many states homeless are permitted to use the address of the bridge they live under when enrolling for state benefits.
In the end worrying about the homeless is slightly behind the amount of time I spend worrying about the possibilty of the Yellowstone super volcano erupting in my lifetime. There are just so many more immediate issues on my plate that I will leave this one to the ACLU lawyers.
I think you are missing SteyrAUG's point...
none of this is a poor problem ! its what our gov has become !
Glenn Beck could not get a permit in NY to carry ?
yet he is rich as heck and others can get a permit ? hmmmmm again gov issue not poor issue
if I am rich and buy 200 guns one day will the gov come knocking ? again I bet they will
again not a poor issue a gov issue of CONTROL !!!
flip that around why should poor people get free gov money !!! OH WAIT its not free they are taking it from me !!!
why should they get school I pay for !
food I pay for !!!
do poor people have more rights than I do !!!!
the gov cant come seize their home ! yet they can with me !
again poor has nothing to do with any rights we have
For a long time in some states you couldn't vote unless you owned property. Which is probably not a bad standard, but a better standard these days would be either denying votes to those that take more government benefits than they earn in reportable income, or giving an extra vote to productive citizens.
But yeah, considering how the constitution was written so that you could pretty much buy, own and carry whatever you wanted, wherever you wanted, unless you were in jail... it's all one big infringement. 4473's, background checks, FFL's, CCW's, Licenses to manufacture, Licenses to import, Special Occupation Taxes, NFA stamps, etc. All highly unconstitutional boom hopping.
People don't want to live in a world where the government isn't their agent of persecution against individuals that offend their sensibilities. So whenever left socialism and right socialism goals meet up our reward is tyranny (aka bipartisan legislation).
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 17:55
The homeless live outside of society due to their own choices. The vast majority are homeless due to drug/alcohol addiction, mental health issues, criminal records or all three. All three of which are potential disqualifiers for firearm ownership in the first place. This is the perfect example of a straw man argument.
If you are homeless than you are certainly committing trespass wherever you choose to lay your head at night whether it be public property or private. Since homeless have no lawful claim to real estate thEY have no right to possess firearms while trespassing on the property of others.
montanadave
01-08-12, 18:19
In the end worrying about the homeless is slightly behind the amount of time I spend worrying about the possibilty of the Yellowstone super volcano erupting in my lifetime.
You obviously don't live as close to Yellowstone Park as I do. :lol:
As for my comment with regards to voting rights, I did not mean to imply that being homeless precludes an individual from voting, only that it can present significant difficulties. Impossible? No. A pain in the ass? For many, yes.
montanadave
01-08-12, 18:23
The homeless live outside of society due to their own choices. The vast majority are homeless due to drug/alcohol addiction, mental health issues, criminal records or all three. All three of which are potential disqualifiers for firearm ownership in the first place. This is the perfect example of a straw man argument.
If you are homeless than you are certainly committing trespass wherever you choose to lay your head at night whether it be public property or private. Since homeless have no lawful claim to real estate that have no right to possess firearms while trespassing on the property of others.
So the full constitutionally guaranteed rights of citizenship extend only to property owners?
DeltaSierra
01-08-12, 18:30
The homeless live outside of society due to their own choices. The vast majority are homeless due to drug/alcohol addiction, mental health issues, criminal records or all three. All three of which are potential disqualifiers for firearm ownership in the first place. This is the perfect example of a straw man argument.
If you are homeless than you are certainly committing trespass wherever you choose to lay your head at night whether it be public property or private. Since homeless have no lawful claim to real estate that have no right to possess firearms while trespassing on the property of others.
I'd like to see you hold that argument with one of the many thousands of homeless veterans that are on the streets, due to no fault of their own that you so piously claim to support on the one hand, while making irrational and baseless statements like the one above...
again poor has nothing to do with any rights we have
You raise some good points, but some of the issues I raised are specific to poor people. The reality of course is that all of us have our rights violated in different ways.
The homeless live outside of society due to their own choices.
If you are homeless than you are certainly committing trespass wherever you choose to lay your head at night whether it be public property or private. Since homeless have no lawful claim to real estate that have no right to possess firearms while trespassing on the property of others.
I hope that one day your wife ****s you over in a divorce that causes you to lose most of your property where you lose your job because performance suffers as a result of being screwed and where you quickly exhaust your resources trying to get it together.
When your life is complete stir fried shit and you wonder how you are ever gonna get it all together again, I further hope that when the magnitude of your situation sinks in some dipshit comes along and tells you that being homeless is your "choice."
And as a final karma I hope you are arrested for trespassing regardless of where you try and shelter yourself.
baffle Stack
01-08-12, 18:42
Yes, the poor have their constitutional rights infringed upon. In theory it may be technically incorrect to say such but in practice if you can't prove physical address you're SOL for many services.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 18:59
I'd like to see you hold that argument with one of the many thousands of homeless veterans that are on the streets, due to no fault of their own that you so piously claim to support on the one hand, while making irrational and baseless statements like the one above...
Show me these "thousands of homeless veterans that are on the streets, due to no fault of their own". I would sure like to see them. That argument sounds like the "it's for the children" excuse that the liberals love to use.
Being a veteran does not absolve one of individual responsibilty. I dare say there are very few veterans who are homeless solely due to circumstances completely beyond their control.
Another straw man bites the dust.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 19:04
I hope that one day your wife ****s you over in a divorce that causes you to lose most of your property where you lose your job because performance suffers as a result of being screwed and where you quickly exhaust your resources trying to get it together.
When your life is complete stir fried shit and you wonder how you are ever gonna get it all together again, I further hope that when the magnitude of your situation sinks in some dipshit comes along and tells you that being homeless is your "choice."
And as a final karma I hope you are arrested for trespassing regardless of where you try and shelter yourself.
I have already been there. To the absolute very bottom and I picked myself up, gave myself a good kick in the ass and did what I had to do. Because of that I probably know better than most here.
pilotguyo540
01-08-12, 19:10
I am by no means homeless, however due to the demands of my employment I am rather nomadic. I recently gave up my apartment, because I only used it a few days a month. As a result I have no way to verify my address. I don't have any utilities in my name. No phone, no electricity, etc. if I were to attempt to buy a firearm now, I would be denied. I am not poor, I just live that way.
In response to Steyer's post, the poor do not have constitutional rights like everyone else, given your scenario. In my opinion, it is not okay or acceptable.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-08-12, 19:55
I think it is a great line of reasoning and argument that should be used in front of courts. Liberals use it all the time to get things thru the courts that they can't get thru the legislature, let's take a page from their book and start to do the same.
Domicile challenged
I've had a really queasy feeling about these DHS Viper program searches. I carry a gun, what are you going to do about it? I actually have a few guns and lot of ammo in my trunk, piss off.
Voodoo_Man
01-08-12, 20:03
I do not know about other states, but in PA I have many times seen what ended up to be a mail box at a UPS Store-type facility. It is a physical address that can be verified, but if you show up its a storefront.
The homeless live outside of society due to their own choices. The vast majority are homeless due to drug/alcohol addiction, mental health issues, criminal records or all three. All three of which are potential disqualifiers for firearm ownership in the first place. This is the perfect example of a straw man argument.
If you are homeless than you are certainly committing trespass wherever you choose to lay your head at night whether it be public property or private. Since homeless have no lawful claim to real estate thEY have no right to possess firearms while trespassing on the property of others.
Show me these "thousands of homeless veterans that are on the streets, due to no fault of their own". I would sure like to see them. That argument sounds like the "it's for the children" excuse that the liberals love to use.
Being a veteran does not absolve one of individual responsibilty. I dare say there are very few veterans who are homeless solely due to circumstances completely beyond their control.
Another straw man bites the dust.
Well you sound a little wacko to me. I'm not sure you should have access to any firearms, since you seem to have no soul. Soulless people tend to do bad things and expect no one to care, because they themselves do not care. Unless of course your derision of the homeless is simply a manifestation of your own fears and insecurities. In which case, your irrational emotional state should likewise preclude you from owning firearms.
Have you considered psychotherapy? It may help in your extreme case.
I have already been there. To the absolute very bottom and I picked myself up, gave myself a good kick in the ass and did what I had to do. Because of that I probably know better than most here.
Welcome to the club.
I was once briefly homeless, and it wasn't because I did something wrong. It was because there are no guarantees in life and shit happens, rest assured it certainly wasn't a "choice."
None of the hardships I have experienced have been by "choice."
Thankfully I've been more lucky than some and things are better, but it wasn't a choice. I was lucky enough to have several "opportunities" come my way which gave me the "chance" to make things better and things worked out for me.
But I never woke up one day and "chose" to be homeless, or out of a job or hungry. And I certainly didn't just "choose" to have a place to live, a job and something to eat.
Just because YOU did something to cause your homelessness doesn't mean everyone is YOU. That is as asinine as every drug addict thinking everyone else is just like them and anyone who drinks a beer is also an addict.
I'm glad the opportunity came along for you to fix what you caused, don't be so presumptuous to assume everyone has the same opportunities. There are things I can do pretty much "no matter what" to survive, but not everyone can do what I can do. And there are things other people can do to take care of themselves "no matter what" but that doesn't mean you and I can simply do the same as them.
If the opportunity and knowledge of how to use the opportunity to your advantage don't exist, "choice" will have little to do with your future.
Belmont31R
01-08-12, 20:45
Genuine vets who are homeless due to service related injuries, either mental or physical, are pretty rare. Most of them are not actual vets with service related injuries. Even of those who are vets how many of them tried to get VA help?
There are PLENTY of veteran and homeless service groups out there. If someone said they wanted help or needed help they would get it.
Genuine vets who are homeless due to service related injuries, either mental or physical, are pretty rare. Most of them are not actual vets with service related injuries. Even of those who are vets how many of them tried to get VA help?
There are PLENTY of veteran and homeless service groups out there. If someone said they wanted help or needed help they would get it.
Homeless people (including vets) who did nothing to contribute or cause their situation, who don't have mental problems or a criminal history may be (and probably are) the minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
It also doesn't mean they should be judged according to what other people do. And if service groups could handle the problem, there wouldn't be any homeless people. I'm glad such organization exist and help as many people as possible, but they can't be everywhere for everyone.
Belmont31R
01-08-12, 21:11
Homeless people (including vets) who did nothing to contribute or cause their situation, who don't have mental problems or a criminal history may be (and probably are) the minority but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
It also doesn't mean they should be judged according to what other people do. And if service groups could handle the problem, there wouldn't be any homeless people. I'm glad such organization exist and help as many people as possible, but they can't be everywhere for everyone.
That is not true. Plenty of them want to be homeless.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 21:35
Genuine vets who are homeless due to service related injuries, either mental or physical, are pretty rare. Most of them are not actual vets with service related injuries. Even of those who are vets how many of them tried to get VA help?
There are PLENTY of veteran and homeless service groups out there. If someone said they wanted help or needed help they would get it.
Exactly. There are literal mountains of resources and help available to veterans. The VA does a pretty damn good job these days. I know firsthand.
If a veteran is homeless for longer than a couple of weeks these days it is by choice.
Nightvisionary
01-08-12, 21:44
That is not true. Plenty of them want to be homeless.
Very true because while help is available it will likely require that the person show some minor bit of personal accountability like making a phone call, getting themselves to an office and not continuing the destructive behavior that got them to that point in life in the first place.
This is America. Not everyone gets equal opportunity but everyone gets an opportunity. If you wait for someone to bring you something on a silver platter your bones will bleach in the sun before it arrives.
An Undocumented Worker
01-08-12, 22:03
couldn't they just get a P.O. box?
pilotguyo540
01-08-12, 22:25
couldn't they just get a P.O. box?
No. At least in Cali, you have to have a physical address, verified by a utilities bill. I think it's the same everywhere, but I don't know for fact.
You raise some good points, but some of the issues I raised are specific to poor people. The reality of course is that all of us have our rights violated in different ways.
yeah :) I think that sums it up rich or poor they get you from one side or the other and use any excuse they can sadly it really has come down to control
when I got my first permit back in about 1984 I think ? I remember writing my reasons
constitutional right !
the guy gave me a hard time ! said that was not good enough and I had to have a real reason to want to carry a gun on me !
I said thats fine I would like you to write that down and sign it why I was denied even turning it in !!!! please and did not know you were the one deciding !! he gave me this total looks could kill stare and I just smiled he then put it in for processing but had some smart a$$ comment like I hope it gets turned down or something ?
needless to say I got my permit
in Hawaii you just get a buddy to put your name down on the utilities or sign a fake rental that they are renting from you go get your PO box and then get your lic ! you need a phone number so in the old days a pager in the new days a throw cell
and you are a resident in a sense !
keeping the PO box to go collect checks then live in a tent in the homeless areas
sadly its a real issue and not a good one over there usually ICE as in Meth kind or other drugs drinking etc.. a few have lost it cause of jobs and such but many times they just fall back on family homes and live with extended family which is common there
I hope that one day your wife ****s you over in a divorce that causes you to lose most of your property where you lose your job because performance suffers as a result of being screwed and where you quickly exhaust your resources trying to get it together.
When your life is complete stir fried shit and you wonder how you are ever gonna get it all together again, I further hope that when the magnitude of your situation sinks in some dipshit comes along and tells you that being homeless is your "choice."
And as a final karma I hope you are arrested for trespassing regardless of where you try and shelter yourself.
I do think their are a small handful of people that are truly screwed with no body to turn to etc.. as the case you say above but even then ? the odds are I wonder what path they could have taken ?
I know many of you hate religion and I am religious ? but the churches I have been involved with would not ever let some one go homeless ! ever if they were a good member
if you have good family it can help out a lot and most of my life in the islands extended family living is common
here it tends to be things I hear ?
OH my dumb old man etc.. ? to me that is so so so disrespectful ?
funny how the family unit is being eroded so badly
again do agree it happens but often again ones choice to neglect say a church and God means they wont have that to turn to ?
deny and dick your friends over you wont have them to turn to
sadly have bad parents or hose your parents you wont have them to turn to
I have had a few friends when young their parents neglected to help them much and they lived with me ? things are OK now 30 years later but I know I have good friends I can turn to if I ever needed a place to stay
so I do think quite a few people who are homeless are that way cause nobody wants them :) again not all but many
also many I have seen who do it on their own not a X wife hosing them but my buddy used to do home repo clean up work and said every home he ever went to that was repo and this was 20 years ago not current was always full of fast food wrappers and trash every where never clean etc..
one of my buddies was saying a old friend from HS is on his way to being homeless maybe ?
but he was just out on his quads in his huge motorhome play toy thing that is getting taken ? and his house is getting closed in on never saved had boats RVs toys etc.. now he is going to pay for it !
First, let's distinguish between the short and long-term homeless. The latter are the minorty and very few got there without contributory negligence - usually substance abuse. In fact, the are so few "innocent" long-term homeless (i.e. mental retardation, extreme physical disability, refractory mental illness, etc.) that private charities could easly provide comfortable lifestyles for these people.
So, the question is: How much of your right to property (i.e income) are you willing to surrender to replace the voluntarily surrendered rights of the long-term homeless?
That is not true. Plenty of them want to be homeless.
Not ALL of them want to be homeless so it is hardly not true.
Exactly. There are literal mountains of resources and help available to veterans. The VA does a pretty damn good job these days. I know firsthand.
If a veteran is homeless for longer than a couple of weeks these days it is by choice.
We aren't talking about just vets, but I suspect you are wrong about that too.
First, let's distinguish between the short and long-term homeless. The latter are the minorty and very few got there without contributory negligence - usually substance abuse. In fact, the are so few "innocent" long-term homeless (i.e. mental retardation, extreme physical disability, refractory mental illness, etc.) that private charities could easly provide comfortable lifestyles for these people.
So, the question is: How much of your right to property (i.e income) are you willing to surrender to replace the voluntarily surrendered rights of the long-term homeless?
I swear this is laughable.
NOBODY is suggesting that anyone have to give up their income so homeless people can have rights. That is as ridiculous as suggesting everyone who is homeless made the voluntary decision to be homeless.
YES there are people who did something that resulted in them being homeless.
YES there are people who decided to be homeless.
But that doesn't mean EVERYONE did something to cause it or made such a decision.
Nightvisionary
01-09-12, 00:27
I swear this is laughable.
NOBODY is suggesting that anyone have to give up their income so homeless people can have rights. That is as ridiculous as suggesting everyone who is homeless made the voluntary decision to be homeless.
YES there are people who did something that resulted in them being homeless.
YES there are people who decided to be homeless.
But that doesn't mean EVERYONE did something to cause it or made such a decision.
So Steyr A what then is your suggestion for solving this most egregious example of civil rights violations since the Jim Crow era?
But that doesn't mean EVERYONE did something to cause it or made such a decision.
and maybe some of those could have made decisions or had done things to keep it from happening ?
It's acceptable to disagree but do it in a polite fashion.
No personal attack or insult. You know who you are.
So Steyr A what then is your suggestion for solving this most egregious example of civil rights violations since the Jim Crow era?
Well first things first.
I hardly stated it was a "most significant" issue or ranked it according to any other issue where our rights our violated. I simply recognized it and asked a question to bring it to light.
As for solutions, the obvious one in every case is to restore the rights of the citizens in question. But I don't see that happening any time soon.
This is because government doesn't get rid of laws that violate rights, they pass a new law that attempts to correct what the first law did wrong but still leave it in place. And as we know this almost never works.
And I honestly can't think of a working solution to fix the solution to the original problem. And I don't think anyone else is going to spend time on it because even the people here who are generally "very concerned" about the rights of citizens generally don't care if that citizen happens to not have property.
and maybe some of those could have made decisions or had done things to keep it from happening ?
Not in every case.
Try and understand that I am NOT suggesting every homeless person is an innocent victim of circumstances. All that I am saying is some are. And once you fall below certain safety nets, it can be very hard to know how to climb out.
That said I fully realize that probably a majority of homeless have severe problems with drugs, alcohol and mental issues. And I'm certainly NOT advocating that those folks be armed. But the small minority of otherwise normal folks who find themselves in such company probably wouldn't mind a means of defense.
OK first things first, by "poor people" I mean ONLY THAT. I don't mean convicted felons, drug addicts, mental people or anything else. I mean "poor people."
For the purpose of this discussion a man who simply lost his job and most of his savings for whatever reason.
1. If he doesn't own a car and doesn't have a CCW permit how does he get his gun and ammunition to a range legally to shoot? What about if he is simply taking it to his buddies house? 200 years ago he could have slung his loaded weapon and legally went anywhere.
2. If he is homeless and has no physical address how can he legally purchase a firearm? How does he fill out a 4473 with no proof of residency? 200 years ago no such regulation existed.
3. If he is homeless how does he legally possess and store his firearm? How does he legally keep it ready to defend his life just as any homeowner would? Without a physical address he could not get a CCW if he wanted to. Does that mean he no longer has the right to be armed and defend himself? 200 years ago homeless people who we called "pioneers" always had their weapons.
4. If the police encounter and search such a person, will they confiscate his property? Is the crime simply being "poor" and "armed"?
I think it could be argued that none of us, rich or poor, have all of our constitutional rights.
The_War_Wagon
01-09-12, 13:34
I think it could be argued that none of us, rich or poor, have all of our constitutional rights.
I think this is definitely the case.
Welfare Cadillacs and ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADERS from Mexico aside, I have lived a number of years in Appalachia - from ne MS to western NC to eastern KY/sw WV to south central PA - and seen a LOT of 'working poor' struggle to get by, but refuse ALL gummint help. Self worth, the dignity of honest labor, and yes, personal pride, keep such people OFF of welfare, but were any of them to ever end up in a legal jam, or need help with a SSD claim, or find themselves on the wrong side of the law (even innocently/mistakenly so), they would - to their utter horror - discover the 'textbook America' they studied in High School civics classes years/decades ago, no longer exists. And no one will give a damn about their horror, OR what they studied.
And yes, I worry some nights, that it could happen to me as well...
We had a customer come to buy a gun that lived in his car due to having lost his home. He wasn't to be able to protect himself in his vehicle. Our ATF agent, surprisingly, agreed that using his drivers license address was the best thing to do, since he still had a right to purchase and own a firearm.
We had a customer come to buy a gun that lived in his car due to having lost his home. He wasn't to be able to protect himself in his vehicle. Our ATF agent, surprisingly, agreed that using his drivers license address was the best thing to do, since he still had a right to purchase and own a firearm.
That is surprising.
That is surprising.
It was about the only intelligent decision I ever saw him make.
Not in every case.
Try and understand that I am NOT suggesting every homeless person is an innocent victim of circumstances. All that I am saying is some are. And once you fall below certain safety nets, it can be very hard to know how to climb out.
That said I fully realize that probably a majority of homeless have severe problems with drugs, alcohol and mental issues. And I'm certainly NOT advocating that those folks be armed. But the small minority of otherwise normal folks who find themselves in such company probably wouldn't mind a means of defense.
agree with ya :) for sure not every case but I do think the ones it happens to and truly have issues out of their control it can happen quickly and usually something bad that can not be checked
major medical happening is a big cause is one of the main ones
and while it happens them not being able to protect themselves ? I still have a hard time with loosing a right
since physically owning a gun is not a right but the privilege/responsibility and/or ability of owning one is
that means one has to have the money to own one to begin with and if bills come up from say a medical happening do you sell off and rebuild or keep one thats a decision one has to make
if a person is so broke they cant afford a gun I still say bummer work hard follow your dreams you might have one one day ?
if someone had money lost it but kept a gun and is now on food stamps ? I would rather help them out if they are honest then the loosers who take advantage of food stamps
again I see the true poor as a very very narrow gap and dont see them as loosing any rights ?
if that is the case then I guess the gov should supply guns to everyone citizen for free ?
if I saw it coming on the wall I might become very poor I would make sure I have lots of ammo and a few nice guns and some parts and some food and not give those up and I would not be to humble to go on food stamps ! although I have a feeling I might not need to since I know I have family and friends that can help me out and my family and friends would not see it negative that I keep myself armed :)
using that anyone who lost their money and is now poor either had guns or was in the position to own them before
if they had them sold them that was a free country to decide what to keep and sell and I think selling off ALL your guns would be bad you might have to sell off MOST of them but keep a few 2 long guns 2 pistols ? some might say 1 gun is enough but keeping 20 is to much and you have to let go some things :)
so again they had freedom before and the right before so it was not taken away or lessened in any way
flip that around they were once OK $$ wise but never had guns now are poor find out how bad the world really can be and now want to be armed !!!!!
well they should have exercised that freedom of gun ownership/rights when they could have so boohoo on them !
again I do agree some slip through usually from something bad happening like medical is the main thing loose a limb or just get really sick like cancer etc..
so yes I agree but again I think the real number is so so so so so slim
on a side not totally relating :)
after living in Honduras while its not America with our freedoms and rights I truly do know what poor is and can say I dont ever want to be poor like they are in those countries !!!!!
we have it so so so good here :)
I swear this is laughable.
NOBODY is suggesting that anyone have to give up their income so homeless people can have rights. That is as ridiculous as suggesting everyone who is homeless made the voluntary decision to be homeless.
YES there are people who did something that resulted in them being homeless.
YES there are people who decided to be homeless.
But that doesn't mean EVERYONE did something to cause it or made such a decision.
I'm glad you got a good laugh - I've been told that I'm a funny guy. You proposed a question in your origional post asking how the homeless can fully exercise their rights to vote or own a firearm without transportation, ammunition, range membership, etc. My answer is they can't unless someone else provides the financial resources to support these rights. Those resources can come voluntarily from private charities or at the tip of a government spear (i.e. taxes from the producers).
My answer is they can't unless someone else provides the financial resources to support these rights.
Well that is how Congress does it, passing one law after another trying to fix the problems created by the previous law.
I was of course thinking more along the lines of removing restrictive laws that caused the original infringement.
Of course I understand government hardly ever works that way.
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