View Full Version : Owning an HK and a glock.
I didn't want to derail the HK pic thread, so here's my question..
I am a firm believer in muscle memory. Having been in true life-death adrenaline dump scenarios, I am acutely aware of just how true all of the theories are of overall mental shutdown and "autopilot" performance.
With that said, I have been bitten hard by the HK bug, and have been really wanting to get one. It occurs to me, however, that the mag release on the HK might necessitate a complete switch from glock to HK, lest I find myself in another adrenaline dump, get to the point of reloading, and finding myself in vapor lock trying to figure out what gun I am carrying and how to drop my mag. I would be nice if I could completely convert over to HK, but not only do I truthfully not have the money to finance that move, I really do love my glock 26.
The shooters on this forum have always been a notch above those who post on other forums, so I wanted to get your opinions on the idea of owning 1-2 HKs while keeping at least my glock 26, likely a few other random guns as well.
Thanks!
First, let me say I do not own a Glock. I do own a couple of HK's (and a couple of Kahrs). And I have owned Sigs, S&W MP, and assorted 1911's.
The mag release was never an issue for me. YMMV. It is for all intent and purpose in the same place as virtually all other semi-auto pistols.
However, if you use a Thumbs-Forward grip, the slide release may or may not give you issues.
post script- I have accidentally hit the raised "button" type magazine release and had a magazine un-seat. I have never had that happen with the HK setup.
Microalign
01-09-12, 11:03
I suggest buying one H&K pistol that you really like, and then put at least 1000rds or more through it. After that, pick the pistol that you seem to shoot the best not only for accuracy, but for speed. Then standardize on either the Glock or H&K.
What works great for some people, doesn't always work great for others based on their training background and needs. So when someone recommends a pistol to you, that is often their own personal preference which may not click with yours.
I own one HK and 0 Glock's. I'm eventually interested in picking up a Glock but I'm an HK fan first for the obvious reasons. :D
I can go from my HK to any other gun and use the mag release just fine. I actually kind of prefer the HK mag release. It's different, it works, and works well.
I think if you have enough trigger time on each of your handguns, you'll know one release from the other, even in a heated situation. Just make one of them your "primary" carry and go-to rather than constantly going back and forth.
I suggest buying one H&K pistol that you really like, and then put at least 1000rds or more through it. After that, pick the pistol that you seem to shoot the best not only for accuracy, but for speed. Then standardize on either the Glock or H&K.
This ^^. I wouldn't sell your Glock until you have actually shot the HK - A LOT - and then decide which one is best for you.
Failure2Stop
01-09-12, 12:35
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
I'm in the exact same boat as the OP. My daily carry is a G26, and I just acquired a HK USP 9. The USP will serve as a HD/range gun until it'll eventually serve as my duty gun.
Now I've got myself wondering if it would be worth ditching the G26 for a HK P2000SK to keep things consistent...
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
Can you elaborate on this a bit? I've always thought being familiar with and being able to run different guns is a good skill to have should the need arise. I think this applies to pistols, rifles, shotguns etc. I understand that at some point you choose primaries and train with those almost exclusively and carry those, so I'm not advocating rotating carry guns. I just see a purpose for running something different periodically. As an example, say Glock 17 is your primary, and you want to use a .45; are you saying that in this case a Glock 21 is the best choice for this particular user or...?
DocGKR says the same thing, so that's at least two knowledgeable people that have the same point of view and I ask because your experience level makes me wonder if my logic is flawed in some way.
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
true, but it can be enjoyable to shoot a few different autoloaders. I've dabbled a bit in HK (p7) and have come back to glock. I put about 800 rounds through the HK before i carried it. I shot that gun really well, better than glock in some ways, but the parts availability and lack of a modern corrosion resistant finish brought me back to glock.
That said i think it's worth looking at other platforms, just be sure that you're proficient with what you carry. I definitely wouldn't recommend changing carry guns on a daily or even monthly basis. a carry gun is a serious commitment.
I switched from carrying a Glock 19 to an HK45C and now an HK P30. I didn't have an issue going from one style of magazine release to the other. I did take the time to get familiar with manipulating the HK magazine release before I fully transitioned to that firearm.
Once I transition, that's the firearm I will take to the range, classes, or competition. I can notice a difference in the initial pointing of the firearms when doing presentation drills. That and among other things (trigger pull, sight alignment, etc.) keep me shooting only the firearm I carry.
My weakness is once I find a firearm I like to carry; I get two of those firearms. Hence, I have two Glock 19's, two HK45C's with LEM, and two HK P30's with LEM. :help: Two is one, and one is none I guess. That or I'm OCD. :D
Psalms144.1
01-09-12, 14:48
WRT using/training on a single type of platform, here are my thoughts:
In the training community, there's a theory known as Hick's law. The simplified version of that is that, for every choice you give an officer, the decision part of the OODA loop gets longer (by how much, we'll never know, but it's noticable). This is usually discussed in terms of non-lethals; e.g. given a combative subject and an officer armed with pistol, impact weapon, chemical weapon, and/or taser, he has to look at the threat and decide - "is this an open hand threat? No? Then should I use spray? No? Should I use the baton?..." You can probably see how this can lead to "death by analysis."
I'm not sure the same law applies to using different types of handguns, at least among pistols that are generally as similar as the ones you've described. For decades, I've been a Glock guy primarily, unless forced by agency mandate to shoot something else. I have never, however, found myself in a situation where I couldn't adequately operate a Sig, Beretta, or HK under stress.
Now, there are some platforms that are different. I'm a FIRM believer that if you're going to carry a 1911, you should ONLY carry 1911s to limit the problems associated with safety manipulation and the VERY short, light trigger pull on that wonderful platform.
Likewise, through a series of unfortunate events, I've found myself without a Glock for the last four or five months; and, in the interim, I've been carrying my personally owned P7M8. Now, I've owned P7s for over 20 years now, and I've probably shot cumulatively well over 10K rounds through various P7s over the years. On the range, doing our non-challenging qual course, I've had no problem working the P7.
Fast forward to last Friday, when we were doing stress drills on the range. I'm not too proud to admit that at least twice in the early drills I simply forgot to "squeeze" the grip enough to cock the striker - and I was getting ready to tap-rack-bang before I realize the failure is in my grip...
So, while I think that it's generally OK to have more than one type of gun in your carry stable (even when I did have a G19 that worked as a primary, my BUG was a Kahr PM9 or S&W 642), I'd recommend mixing in "unique" manual of arms guns.
Regards,
Kevin
For autos, I have a Glock, a few Walthers, a couple of CZs, and a HK. My HK (45) is my bedroom gun. I personally find the modern Walther/HK mag release more intuitive and easier to use than the button.
My guess is that you will adapt to the HK very quickly.
Microalign
01-09-12, 15:42
WRT using/training on a single type of platform, here are my thoughts:
In the training community, there's a theory known as Hick's law. The simplified version of that is that, for every choice you give an officer, the decision part of the OODA loop gets longer (by how much, we'll never know, but it's noticable). This is usually discussed in terms of non-lethals; e.g. given a combative subject and an officer armed with pistol, impact weapon, chemical weapon, and/or taser, he has to look at the threat and decide - "is this an open hand threat? No? Then should I use spray? No? Should I use the baton?..." You can probably see how this can lead to "death by analysis."
I'm not sure the same law applies to using different types of handguns, at least among pistols that are generally as similar as the ones you've described. For decades, I've been a Glock guy primarily, unless forced by agency mandate to shoot something else. I have never, however, found myself in a situation where I couldn't adequately operate a Sig, Beretta, or HK under stress.
Now, there are some platforms that are different. I'm a FIRM believer that if you're going to carry a 1911, you should ONLY carry 1911s to limit the problems associated with safety manipulation and the VERY short, light trigger pull on that wonderful platform.
Likewise, through a series of unfortunate events, I've found myself without a Glock for the last four or five months; and, in the interim, I've been carrying my personally owned P7M8. Now, I've owned P7s for over 20 years now, and I've probably shot cumulatively well over 10K rounds through various P7s over the years. On the range, doing our non-challenging qual course, I've had no problem working the P7.
Fast forward to last Friday, when we were doing stress drills on the range. I'm not too proud to admit that at least twice in the early drills I simply forgot to "squeeze" the grip enough to cock the striker - and I was getting ready to tap-rack-bang before I realize the failure is in my grip...
So, while I think that it's generally OK to have more than one type of gun in your carry stable (even when I did have a G19 that worked as a primary, my BUG was a Kahr PM9 or S&W 642), I'd recommend mixing in "unique" manual of arms guns.
Regards,
Kevin
Excellent post.
Nephrology
01-09-12, 17:52
Can you elaborate on this a bit? I've always thought being familiar with and being able to run different guns is a good skill to have should the need arise.
When is it necessary to know how to shoot 2 different pistols?
I own 3 9mm glocks and I shoot them almost exclusively. I do not need a larger or smaller caliber or pistol for any reason I can envision, except maybe backpacking in bear country, which is not on my short list of things to do.
When is it necessary to know how to shoot 2 different pistols?
Well in my case, I don't particularly want to invest $3000 to convert entirely to HK, so the original question stands of the viability of carrying two firearms with very different magazine releases.
I'm not particularly worried about trigger differences, just reloads.
When is it necessary to know how to shoot 2 different pistols?
I own 3 9mm glocks and I shoot them almost exclusively. I do not need a larger or smaller caliber or pistol for any reason I can envision, except maybe backpacking in bear country, which is not on my short list of things to do.
What if you need to pickup someone else's gun in an emergency? Will you know how to run it? Yeah, I understand the possibility is remote, but it does still exist. What if your situation changes and you need a heavier caliber because you're around some barricades, like car windshields for instance? Again, the possibility is remote, but it remains. Btw, what does shoot them "almost exclusively" mean? Are you saying you do shoot something other than 9mm Glocks? If so, why?
If you shoot ARs, AKs, shotguns etc, what makes that different from pistols? Different operating systems. If you train on all of them, is it not to familiarize yourself with all of them? And to be honest, IMHO, it's fun to shoot something different every once in a while. That alone is reason enough.
Again, I'm not advocating you rotate your carry gun or you train with a different pistol every week; I am saying that running something different and being familiar with the different characteristics of different pistols isn't a bad thing.
Can you elaborate on this a bit? I've always thought being familiar with and being able to run different guns is a good skill to have should the need arise. I think this applies to pistols, rifles, shotguns etc. I understand that at some point you choose primaries and train with those almost exclusively and carry those, so I'm not advocating rotating carry guns. I just see a purpose for running something different periodically. As an example, say Glock 17 is your primary, and you want to use a .45; are you saying that in this case a Glock 21 is the best choice for this particular user or...?
DocGKR says the same thing, so that's at least two knowledgeable people that have the same point of view and I ask because your experience level makes me wonder if my logic is flawed in some way.
Short of a SHTF/end of the world/whatever fantasy coming alive, the need most likely won't ever arise.
My take on it is that being somewhat familiar with several different firearms can give you a better idea of what works and what doesn't. Not training with them (like you would your duty/carry/issued weapon), but just simple familiarization. It gives you some perspective.
Just my two cents worth, from my limited experience.
I wanted to get your opinions on the idea of owning 1-2 HKs while keeping at least my glock 26, likely a few other random guns as well.
I own a number of pistols with a completely different manual of arms, including HKs and Glock, and don't have a considerable problem switching. However, I don't rapid-cycle and commit to one carry (and therefore practice) pistol for months at a time. I do quite a bit of dry-fire manipulations and it doesn't take excessively long to re-acquaint with a "new" manual of arms, but I do see glitches early into a transition. I wouldn't carry two different pistols concurrently, for example, larger HK as a "primary" and smaller 26 as a BUG or "deep concealment" option.
FWIW, my personal "speed bump" is not mag release but trigger difference between the two, especially when going from HK to Glock. I don't think mag release is going to be an issue, but if this concerns you enough, you may consider Gen4 G26, once they are proven reliable, and revert the mag release for a trigger finger operation.
Nephrology
01-09-12, 19:45
What if you need to pickup someone else's gun in an emergency? Will you know how to run it? Yeah, I understand the possibility is remote, but it does still exist. What if your situation changes and you need a heavier caliber because you're around some barricades, like car windshields for instance? Again, the possibility is remote, but it remains. Btw, what does shoot them "almost exclusively" mean? Are you saying you do shoot something other than 9mm Glocks? If so, why?
I have an el-cheapo RIA 1911 that I purchased as my first pistol. It also plays host to a .22 kit which does its job quite well and has kept me from needing to buy a dedicated .22. I would sell it honestly if I thought I would recoup enough money in doing so. I haven't bought any .45 to put through it in a year at least and I certainly don't carry it.
Other than that it's all Glocks.
As for your listed concerns, they are totally irrelevant. I will never need to know how another person's pistol functions instinctively. My mileage is better invested in making my gun kick ass in my hands rather than prepare for the almost impossible. Outside of a range environment I haven't even been around handguns belonging to people other than me outside of law enforcement. In the remote chance that that occurs I trust I will know at least in which direction to point it. I have casually shot other pistols often enough to at least know where the buttons are.
And re: other calibers I really don't feel a need for anything beyond 9mm. If I was really convinced I needed more punchI suppose I could buy a Glock 23. but I'm not. I am perfectly happy with the way my carry 9mm (147gr Golden Saber) performs through AG. Don't really think a .40 or .45 would do much for me except make me spend more money on ammo.
I switched from HK's to Glocks and haven't looked back.
I have an el-cheapo RIA 1911 that I purchased as my first pistol. It also plays host to a .22 kit which does its job quite well and has kept me from needing to buy a dedicated .22. I would sell it honestly if I thought I would recoup enough money in doing so. I haven't bought any .45 to put through it in a year at least and I certainly don't carry it.
Other than that it's all Glocks.
As for your listed concerns, they are totally irrelevant. I will never need to know how another person's pistol functions instinctively. My mileage is better invested in making my gun kick ass in my hands rather than prepare for the almost impossible. Outside of a range environment I haven't even been around handguns belonging to people other than me outside of law enforcement. In the remote chance that that occurs I trust I will know at least in which direction to point it. I have casually shot other pistols often enough to at least know where the buttons are.
And re: other calibers I really don't feel a need for anything beyond 9mm. If I was really convinced I needed more punchI suppose I could buy a Glock 23. but I'm not. I am perfectly happy with the way my carry 9mm (147gr Golden Saber) performs through AG. Don't really think a .40 or .45 would do much for me except make me spend more money on ammo.
A few things; in both posts, I said familiarize with other systems, not train with them regularly. As I said, at some point, you need to choose one and go with it. Also, I said, just wanting to once in a while is reason enough. You don't agree, which is fine, but I think my reasoning is perfectly relevant to me.
Also, I asked do you train with ARs, AKs, shotguns etc? If so, is that different than training with different pistols? If so, why? AR and an AK do basically the same thing. And again, just wanting to is perfectly relevant.
Nephrology
01-09-12, 20:00
Also, I asked do you train with ARs, AKs, shotguns etc? If so, is that different than training with different pistols? If so, why? AR and an AK do basically the same thing. And again, just wanting to is perfectly relevant.
I do not own an AR-15. I do train with my (only) shotgun, a Remington 870. When the budget allows it I will expand to an AR-15 but frankly I am happy mastering the pistol first. In my day to day life it is the one that I feel is most pertinent. All of my energy/gun money/time is going into perfecting how to shoot a handgun, specifically 9mm glocks, well. I believe it is a difficult enough task that it deserves all of my attention.
I have a HK P-30 and a RTF G19. I am conducting my own pistol trials to figure out which I will favor. I do not find the peculiar HK mag release difficult to adapt to, quite the contrary, I find it easy and natural to use with my trigger finger [right handed]. It is the trigger systems that require dedication, at least for me.
I shoot several HKs, CCW with HK, but also own and shoot Glock 17 Gen4 and STI 2011.
As to magazine change, I do not have problems switching. I use my middle finger on HK to release magazine. Because I'm left handed I can also use my middle finger to release magazine on Glock or STI. For right handed shooter to have more consistent operation of magazine release between HK and push button, I would advice using "left handed" magazine release button (one that goes on right side of the gun). I do not use tip of my finger on button release, but rather second joint. Actually in this case tip of my finger roams same area where HK paddle would be, so it is almost same movement for me.
In this video at about 1:35-1:40 you can see how I use button release with middle finger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3fX_zLIacY)
More problematic in switching between HK and Glock (STI/1911 is no problem) is grip angle difference, at least for me.
I run both a G34 and USP 9mm as duty pistols. I've never had an issue switching between either of them in terms of the manual of arms. Practice enough with each that the manual of arms is set in your brain and you shouldn't run into a problem. I've never tried to hit the wrong magazine release or gone for the slide release in the wrong spot even when shooting the pistols back to back.
-Jenrick
main challenge for me between the P30 (DA/SA) and the G19 are the triggers.
Going from an easy trigger from a G19 to a DA/SA trigger such as the P30 require a bit more finesse and practice.
m1a_scoutguy
01-10-12, 10:38
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
My feelings also !!! I had a HK USP 40 cal for a long time,,great gun,,BUT,,I also had my Glock 17 and my 1911s,,,way to many "different" type's of Handguns. Mag release was Never a issue,,it was always going from Safe to Fire,,sometimes in the heat of the battle,,,(Shot Timer Going Off) I would go from Safe,,go to far and decock,,then I would have to pull through double action instead of single action,,etc,,,,just to many extra things going on !! (At least for me) So I ended up selling it !!! I kept the Glock,,,Pull,,Aim,,Squeeze,,Bang,,pretty straight forward !! Thats my 2 cents worth. :D
I have been there with the p7. Lusted after one for ten years, bought it, sold it, lusted for another 10 years, bought it, and sold it. I am not back to 3 Glock 19s (one for suppressor use, one for carry, one as an extra). The manual of arms was too different, and to complicated. Trying to run one in the dark during a pistol/flashlight drill was like rubbing your head and patting your stomach. A significant portion of the time I could not get hte light on and the gun cocked at the same time. I'm pretty confident that you could go from striker fired gun to striker fired gun (with similiar grip angles) pretty seemlessly. In courses the worst problem I have seen is 1911/Berretta 92 shooters trying to switch from one to the other. Safetys are opposite, one decocks... Just a mess.
I carry Glocks. I'm a private citizen. I can run HKs, 1911s, Sigs and Smiths if need be, but its such an edge case, I don't worry about it.
The PAC NW LE is about 90 percent Glocks (bellevue PD runs HKs). If I was a cop in a multi agency task force, then I would see weapon commonality as a plus, albeit a minor one.
This was discussed briefly on about page 7 of https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82807&page=7 where G26 and Walther PPS were compared. To save you from needing to look it up, my comment there was:
"By way of disclosure: I'm not LE or .mil, and I've never been in a gunfight. My opinion comes from lots of time dealing with fire and rescue service training issues. An example: we have two different types of connections on our SCBA air lines, which we use to quickly switch form our own air to a buddy breather connection. Both types are in front line use. One is a twist and push, the other is a newer push-then-pull. When we set up failures and a fire fighter goes to draw breath and sucks the mask to his/her face, many will quickly grab the disconnect and try to disconnect it the old way, which they practiced for years. If they have the new fitting, which is in the same place and feels similar, they will sometimes end up having to break their mask seal to grab a breath instead of remembering to try the different technique. "I can't breath" is a pretty strong stressor. On the other hand, if we just don the gear and run practices it usually goes pretty well. Similar but slightly different just seems like a recipe for error, and is most likely to appear at the worst of times."
I still believe that having two devices that are very similar but with a key control being different, is a recipe for vapor lock for the average civilian shooter when their life is in danger. Not when they're practicing, or when the shot timer is running or when they're competing for high score, but when someone is trying to kill them and they think their life is about to end. HSLD fighters who get tons of trigger time and get training which adapts them to stress may be able to overcome this problem, but that doesn't include most of us. I think shooting other platforms just so you'll know what they're about, or for the sheer enjoyment of a day at the range, is fine. It really is ok to just go shoot for fun sometimes. But for your life safety decision, I'd pick one type and spend time building familiarity and muscle memory on the single style.
I also have a HK and Glock. I've had my USP 40c for about 15 years, but in that time, I haven't shot it much. So I don't think I have gotten used to the HK that much where it's a big deal to transition to something else. Probably around 1200 rounds total.
I recently purchased a G17 Gen 4 and already have 400 rounds through it and that round count will exceed the HK in the next couple of weeks. I'm really liking the G17 so far and that will likely be the one that I will take to classes with me and for USPSA events.
I have noticed that I have come to operate the pistols differently. With the HK, I used the middle finger of my shooting hand (I'm right handed) to drop the mag and with the G17 I use the thumb of my right hand. The slide release, I operate the same way, but I actually like the larger slide release of the HK. I have an extended slide release on the G17, but it's not quite as wide large as on the HK.
The HK was my first pistol and at the time I was sure that I wanted something with a manual safety. Now that I've gotten back into shooting and have been practicing drawing from holsters, I've found that I like the Safe Action of the Glocks and will be sticking with that for a while.
Yes, I will keep my HK and shoot it at the range now and then, but the G17, and probably a future G34, will my primary.
I suggest buying one H&K pistol that you really like, and then put at least 1000rds or more through it. After that, pick the pistol that you seem to shoot the best not only for accuracy, but for speed. Then standardize on either the Glock or H&K.
+1 more
I don't think the question is "Are you going to fail miserably by shooting guns with different manual of arms?"
I think the questions is "What method of practice will increase my performance most efficiently and allow top performance under stress, be it self-defense, competition or whatever."
If your goal is to shoot a 5 second FAST test, would you practice for it by putting 18 rounds through the HK, then switching to the Glock for 18 rounds, then back?
In the last month I've shot a SIG, a 1911, a J-frame, a K-frame, a Ruger 22/45 and, Lord help me, a Raven J22. I don't worry about it because the other 95% of my practice was with my G19.
If you want to maximize your performance, pick one platform and practice hard with it. Your best results will be with the gun you just put 200 (or more) consecutive rounds though. Shooting something else occasionally wont hurt. Ping Ponging back and forth will have you stagnating on both.
Gringop
I standardized my pistol use to 9mm Glocks. That is, I only carry my glocks for concealed carry. As I have had the funds, I bought an HK, M&P, and a Beretta 92c (for similarity to my issued pistol, should they ever give me a gun again). Concealed carry is 99% of my shooting focus nowadays, but I thought the beretta would be nice should I need to prepare for deployment. While some might say they do not notice any loss of precision between pistols, I believe that if I tried to shoot many different types of pistols I would not shoot to the average ability that I do. I would be much worse. To my trigger finger, the glock with standard trigger set-up and the HK with LEM trigger are vastly different. I bought all of my non-glocks used; my P2000 was marked way down because instead of the original box it came with a milt sparks holster!
As my desire to shoot to a higher level grows, my interest in anything other than my primary pistol dwindles. I scratched the itch for different, and now I just want to shoot better.
My EDC varies between a Glock 19 and a P30S. Honestly, in terms of manual of arms, the difference in mag-release styles is damn near negligible when it comes to reloads. The biggest difference that I have noticed in EDC'ing the two weapons comes down to (a) grip angle and (b) my P30S's safety (which is inapplicable if you're purchasing just a straight P30).
In other words, yes, there *IS* a difference between both platforms, especially if you're in the high speed split-second, everything automatic arena. However, IMHO, the mag release isn't so different as to cause you 'vapor lock' when you need to reload during a high stress environment.
My two cents worth.
SoOhArDsOmIcH
01-10-12, 22:46
main challenge for me between the P30 (DA/SA) and the G19 are the triggers.
Going from an easy trigger from a G19 to a DA/SA trigger such as the P30 require a bit more finesse and practice.
When I was looking at buying my p30 this was in my mind so I decided to go lem, as for the mag release it is different than my m&p but not something that I've ever had an issue with, like stated train with your guns and you won't have an issue.
Alaskapopo
01-11-12, 02:03
While I agree there are benefits to standardizing on one platform, I also know that shooter skill and experience also needs to be factored in. I love shooting my various pistols and can shoot them all well. A good shooter should be able to shoot any weapon well. I can understand new shooters or those with limited training and ability focusing on one system.
Pat
To the OP. I am devoted to the 1911, however I also own a lot of other auto's. HK and Glock among them. I shoot them all and enjoy it, but I only carry the 1911, or a seecamp sometimes, depending on dress. I agree the HK mag release is diff, not bad, just diff. Training will take care of that. Shoot both and decide which one is for you. Then train away with that one. Doesn't mean tou can't own more.
Submariner
01-11-12, 15:17
Now I've got myself wondering if it would be worth ditching the G26 for a HK P2000SK to keep things consistent...
Please let me know when you ditch your G26.
:thank_you2:
to the op----
i had 2 hk 30s and an hk p2000sk, only to have sold them all, and got 3 gen4 glocsk- 26,19 and a 34.
as several astute members have attested, in a very high stress level situation, the last thing you want to wonder "is which pistol am i operating now?"a cause for disaster.
there's no perfect pistol, only close to it as far as YOU are concerened. whichever you end up using /getting, stick with its paltform and train hard for muscle memory.
having had several makers over the years, the glocks offer very few if any levers and bottons to content with. and that's one of their allures to me.
I saw this somewhere recently and liked it - "It takes a minute to learn but a lifetime to master".
I own 9mm Glocks and plan to get another. I've thought about buying other pistols but Glock's have been great to me so far. What's nice about owning a bunch of Glocks is that no matter which pistol I pick up, they're all the same. They operate the same, they feel the same, weigh the same, recoil the same, same ammo, interchangeable mags for the most part, and my learning curve between pistols is non-existent.
If you're thinking about consolidating to have all one platform handgun, just make sure it's one that you shoot well and enjoy.
I have been closely reading the responses and appreciate all of them. I'm in a position now where I really want a midsize .45 a la the hk45c, and I am totally dissatisfied with the glock 30 and 36. I have considered the xd45c but not thrilled with their reputation, I've owned an m&p45 full size in the past and was totally turned off by the gritty trigger, and I find myself left with the hk45c to consider. With that said, I highly doubt I'd ever get rid of my glock 26, as I find it desirable in every way.
I am in total agreement with the idea of the "heat of the moment" "which gun am I carrying" line of thinking. Some in this thread believe that with enough training, this may be a non issue, and in the end I suppose this is the entire purpose of this thread. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but I suppose there's no real rush at this point.
I also wanted to add that I'm not concerned about the trigger. I transition between my glocks, pm9, rifle, and LCP with little difficulty, on top of that I'm aware that during the adrenaline dump I won't have the fine nervous control to tell the difference and accuracy has been generally widely proven to be poor at best in these scenarios anyhow, shooting 1" low and to the left will be the least of my concerns..
I am totally dissatisfied with the glock 30 and 36
I find this statement amazing considering your professed feelings for the G26. Frankly I don't understand how you can be so "totally dissatisfied" with either the G30 or the G36, of course you've not offered any testimony as to why you are so dissastisfied either?
I carry one or the other every day, I've found the G30SF to be completely superior to the HK45C, better ergonomics, better trigger and trigger reset, greater ease of maintence, easier to shoot well with, higher capacity in a smaller pkg, better magazines, far superior parts availability, far fewer parts to worry over, totally superior access to trained armorers, and far superior factory customer support.
In my estimation the HK pistol line is quite overrated, and definitely overpriced, especially head to head with the Glock's you have found so disappointing, Glock's that at a minimum, match the HK's reliability & durability.
As to owning and shooting multiple pistols, not a problem for a dedicated shooting professional, I encourage it, if you can afford it, have at it. I certainly do...
Everyone is different, there is a small, vocal subset that raves about the HK45, and P30 9mm/.40 pistols. Something must be right about them for these folks to be so vocal. I know this, shooting the P30 9mm, then switching back to the G19 is an enlightening experience, the P30 which is larger in the stock, has less room to accomadate my hand, which makes the little Glock seem amazingly roomy in comparison...
I'm quite curious to hear whats so disappointing to you about the G30, and G36 .45's? I think they are very likely the two best small statured .45 autos ever made, especially the G30 which comfortably matches the carry capacity of the fullsize HK45 auto in a pkg virtually identical in size to the G19...
I'm sorry you are so taken aback by my statement. To put it briefly, I find them visually quite unappealing. They both feel ok in my hands (although I did find the glock 30 to be a tad bulky, but not unmanageable). In the end, I can't get over the fact that these two pistols were designed to be compact guns, yet they were given 2 finger grips and shipped with extended magazines. Frankly they look cheap and silly.
Petty? Maybe.. But I know my feelings on this issue aren't unique. In the end if I'm going to buy a gun, I want it to meet all of my needs, or at least as many as possible..
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 04:47
I'm sorry you are so taken aback by my statement. To put it briefly, I find them visually quite unappealing. They both feel ok in my hands (although I did find the glock 30 to be a tad bulky, but not unmanageable). In the end, I can't get over the fact that these two pistols were designed to be compact guns, yet they were given 2 finger grips and shipped with extended magazines. Frankly they look cheap and silly.
Petty? Maybe.. But I know my feelings on this issue aren't unique. In the end if I'm going to buy a gun, I want it to meet all of my needs, or at least as many as possible..
Different strokes for different folks. Frankly I could give a crap less about how a work gun looks. These are not supposed to be things of beauty, but functional weapons meant to be used in the most dire circumstances. They are not designed for a beauty pageant . Now personally I don't care for the 30 or 36 either but for different reasons. The 30 is overly bulky and is the same approximate size as a Glock 19 which holds a lot more ammo and is slimmer and easier to conceal. The 36 is a low cap gun that is the least reliable of the Glock line. Frankly I don't much care for the 45 acp outside of a 1911. But I will admit I like the grip on the HK45 quite a bit. But not enough to make me give up having twice as much ammo in my Glock 17.
Pat
Is it *possible* to be proficient with multiple handgun types? Absolutely. Especially if your version of "proficiency" is standing still and shooting bullseyes slowfire. If your version of "proficiency" also involves shooting, and gun-handling, at speed in dynamic situations it is still entirely possible but far less probable.
So, if you're at either end of the spectrum (with static-range target shooter at one, high-speed mega shooter on the other), I'd say it doesn't matter. For those of us, the VAST majority of us, that live somewhere in between, it matters. It absolutely matters.
I base this not only off my own experience going from the Glock, to the 1911 and back again in a training and competition shooting environment, but also off my experience of observing and supervising other shooters, twice a month, for over 5 years. The vast majority of this was carbine, but the same thing holds true for handgun.
Go work as an SO or RO in any competition shooting environment over the course of YEARS to where you start to get to know the regulars and can observe their habits. You will, without a doubt, observe the guy that shows up with a different gun in a different holster every single time. Watch as he fumble-****s for this or that, bobbles his reloads, etc. (this kind of gun round-robin seems to happen more in IDPA where people are shooting for fun than in USPSA where people are shooting to win and don't have the funds for more than one super-gun).
So if you're a static range target shooter, have at it. You'll have all the time in the world to stare at the gun while you figure out WHICH gun is in your hand and which lever performs the function you're looking for at that moment.
Or, if you're a USPSA grand master, have at it. Your other fundamentals will all be at the level of unconscious competence and you'll be used to making decisions in a fraction of a second and when you go looking for the mag release in one place and can't find it you'll adjust very quickly. It WILL still be slower, but not overly detrimentally so.
If you're a normal person, who trains, shoots matches (even occasionally), gets away from the bench and the static range whenever you can, and for whom speed of action is a concern, stick with one platform system. You'll be better off for it.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 05:36
I am not talking about static bullseye shooting. I have used guns from revolvers, 1911's Sigs, and Glocks in IDPA, USPSA and three gun matches and I do fine. Usually in the top 30%. Yes its better to stick to one platform to get the best results and I generally do. I also try to get new shooters to stick with one type of gun. However for a good and experienced shooter the difference you will gain in sticking with just Glocks (or any brand here) vs mixing it up from time to time for fun is very small in my experience. You don't have to be at the grand master level for this to kick in either. Not everyone shares the same limitations. Some are definately better off keeping it as simple as possible.
Pat
I am not talking about static bullseye shooting. I have used guns from revolvers, 1911's Sigs, and Glocks in IDPA, USPSA and three gun matches and I do fine. Usually in the top 30%. Yes its better to stick to one platform to get the best results. I also try to get new shooters to stick with one type of gun. However for a good and experienced shooter the difference you will gain in sticking with just Glocks vs mixing it up from time to time for fun is very small in my experience. You don't have to be at the grand master level for this to kick in either. Not everyone shares the same limitations.
Pat
Isn't that, more or less, what I said?
and what is "do fine"? top 30% of what type/level/quantity of shooters? a new range near us started hosting IDPA matches and I was big-king-dingaling and winning the matches early on when nobody worth a shit was showing up to shoot against. Even now I'm "in the top 30%" and that's not something I'd crow about with this bunch.
I was 26 out of 60 overall (across all divisions) at a USPSA match last Thursday. With just a couple more better-placed shots I would have been "in the top 30%" and I would still consider that failure (I consider being 26th a failure). The top production shooter was 8th out of 60, and that tells me that 26th is failure and I can do better.
I suppose I could show up with a different gun every month, to no benefit, and continue to languish at 26th, but I'm going to dryfire my Glock 19 every single night between now and the next match and sooner or later I'm going to beat that #8 guy.
So yes, anyone can be mediocre with a different gun every month.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 05:57
Isn't that, more or less, what I said?
and what is "do fine"? top 30% of what type/level/quantity of shooters? a new range near us started hosting IDPA matches and I was big-king-dingaling and winning the matches early on when nobody worth a shit was showing up to shoot against. Even now I'm "in the top 30%" and that's not something I'd crow about with this bunch.
I was 26 out of 60 overall (across all divisions) at a USPSA match last Thursday. With just a couple more better-placed shots I would have been "in the top 30%" and I would still consider that failure (I consider being 26th a failure). The top production shooter was 8th out of 60, and that tells me that 26th is failure and I can do better.
I suppose I could show up with a different gun every month, to no benefit, and continue to languish at 26th, but I'm going to dryfire my Glock 19 every single night between now and the next match and sooner or later I'm going to beat that #8 guy.
So yes, anyone can be mediocre with a different gun every month.
This is not a dick measureing contests. I am not saying I am better than you because I like to shoot more than just my Glock 17. My point was its not impossible to shoot multiple types of guns well not just mediocre. If I were wrong there would be no 5 gun IDPA masters and I know at least one who shoots at my club with me. As to the comments about clowns showing up with different guns every match and sucking. Sure I have seen that. Those guys are trying to solve a software issue (shooter skill) with a hardware solution and its not going to work. However once the shooter has been around the block and has mastered the fundamentals its not so difficult. In fact any good instructor should be able to shoot pretty much any handgun well.
Good night.
pat
I own both Glock and H&K. Both are excellent firearms that seem to appeal to people differently, but that is good. I wish as a younger shooter I had gotten professional training from a well known instructor who would have most likely told me to standardize on a single platform (that I shoot the best) , buy lots of ammo, and get LOTS of professional training.
The amount of money I could have saved over the years and how much further along my skill set would be.
I agree Sigfever. I bought multiple platforms and then got training. I find it hard to just pick one and sell the other. I mostly shoot my HK45 and have a hard time getting rid of my Glocks even though I don't shoot them well.
If the HK is light LEM, which mine are, it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to transition but I can see how the difference in triggers, grip angles and feel and mag releases would prevent you from shooting well instinctively with one once you train with the other. It would be difficult.
I will continue to train with my HK and keep my Glocks and 1911 as range toys for fun.
30 cal slut
01-12-12, 12:00
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
Fun at the range is one.
I am in the same boat as OP - Glock and HK are in the inventory - both are suitable for serious social purposes, but I make a conscious decision to train on and carry one.
well I will throw My 2 cents In :D
I have carried from the age of 19 and was a huge SIG fanboy I have carried P220,p228,p239,p230,p232 it was the best I thought .
t
hen I got to shoot a Glock and wanted to get into that so I purchased a G30 carried it for over 5 years ,But I was Not a fan of the way it felt in my hand and even though I shot very good with it.
I wanted something new.I tried the XD-45 and didn't keep it a Month to much Like a Glock.
I started reading here about how well many thought the HK pistols where the best ,so after some hunting I found a HK45 compact and bought it.
I could not be happier the Mag release is different, But Not in a Bad way I can swap mags Just as fast if not faster with it ,instead of a Pushing in Motion It was more a push down Motion and I can do that with my thumb or trigger finger .
I am glad I listen to members here And got into HK, for me there is no other handgun I care to carry .
I have picked other friends Handguns Up and still have no problem dropping mags with the push button .
if you are torn I would do what others say and try and find one to shoot or just jump in feet first and you will find in my opinion you will have no problems with adapting to it .
January 2010 - October 2011 - Glock 19, 14000 rounds.
Baseline performance measures in March 2010 - FAST drill 8.6 seconds, average 25 yard group 5 inches.
Endpoint performance measures in October 2011 - FAST drill 6.6 seconds, average 25 yard group 4 inches.
October 2011 - present - HK P30.
Baseline performance in October 2011 - FAST drill 8.8 (the day before I shot 6.6 with Glock), average 25 yard group 4 inches.
After about 3000 rounds live, about 1500 dry, interim performance - FAST drill 6.3, average 25 yard group is the same.
The moral: yes you can switch between platforms, yes the performance will degrade immediately after the switch, no it doesn't take forever but it does take time, ammo, dedication and patience - rapid cycling or weekly switching will not work, and, the most important one: without systematic performance tracking your perception whether the switch affected how you shoot one way or the other is just that - a perception.
BTW, I don't believe that lifetime commitment to a single platform is necessarily a good thing.
Yes you CAN do it, I don't think anyone's arguing that, but it's going to be easier to MASTER the skill if you focus on one pistol type.
but it's going to be easier to MASTER the skill if you focus on one pistol type.
I could argue with that, to some extent. If you look at my data above, the setback on the way to continuing mastering the skill lasted about 3 months and 3000 rounds. Given that I had shot Glock for 2 years prior, I doubt that shooting it for those three months would've led to an incremental improvement. On the other hand, I am now equally skilled with a different platform that has, in my opinion, more difficult trigger, my average performance didn't deteriorate, and my peak performance is actually better (data not listed as it is more attributable to pistol itself). I believe that I am a better shooter now in context of a global skillset than I was before the switch.
That's not the first instance for me. If I were to follow the mantra of concentrating on one pistol, I would've never switched from 1911 to Glock, and very few things did more to my shooting than getting off 1911 trigger crutch.
charmcitycop
01-12-12, 13:14
......
To some degree shooting is like riding a bike. Once you learn, you'll never forget, and you can ride any bike any time. But really, shooting at a master level is a perishable skill. Reaching that level of shooting means a lot of training and a lot of rounds downrange. If you're constantly switching pistols, calibers, platforms, etc - then it's going to be harder and take longer to get to your goal. It's not impossible, it's just harder.
YVK, I see that you shot 14,000 rds between Jan 2010 and Oct 2011. I assume this was your train up to the Glock which enabled you to build the skill you have because you mentioned switching from 1911's. Do you think that if you'd split that number and fired 7,000 rds through your Glock 19 and 7,000 rds through your P30 that you would have ended up with the same skill level on both by Oct 2011?
I think that for you what helped so much was reaching a high level of proficiency with one platform, and then transitioning those learned skills to another.
I'm sorry you are so taken aback by my statement. To put it briefly, I find them visually quite unappealing. They both feel ok in my hands (although I did find the glock 30 to be a tad bulky, but not unmanageable). In the end, I can't get over the fact that these two pistols were designed to be compact guns, yet they were given 2 finger grips and shipped with extended magazines. Frankly they look cheap and silly.
Petty? Maybe.. But I know my feelings on this issue aren't unique. In the end if I'm going to buy a gun, I want it to meet all of my needs, or at least as many as possible..
On the contrary, I thank you for your honesty, you are essentially choosing the HK based on nothing other than vanity & emotion. As for myself, I choose them based solely upon their utility....
On the contrary, I thank you for your honesty, you are essentially choosing the HK based on nothing other than vanity & emotion. As for myself, I choose them based solely upon their utility....
Wow, put your condescension back in your pocket there newt. I'm CONSIDERING an HK because I find it to be the perfect size 45 for my application with a stellar record for reliability. I am concerned with the magazine release leading to vapor lock in an adrenaline dump situation and I am asking for opinions as to whether or not this is a valid concern and if it can be overcome. I already said I considered the glock 30 to be blocky (albeit manageable) and I find the glock 36 to be an awkward pistol with a dismal reliability record. Is there any particular manner in which I can articulate my thoughts that will be acceptable to you, and not lead to arrogant chatter in my direction aimed at trying to make me look somehow inferior to you?
Are you even reading this thread, or did you just decide to pop in and spout off?
Wow, put your condescension back in your pocket there newt. I'm CONSIDERING an HK because I find it to be the perfect size 45 for my application with a stellar record for reliability. I am concerned with the magazine release leading to vapor lock in an adrenaline dump situation and I am asking for opinions as to whether or not this is a valid concern and if it can be overcome. I already said I considered the glock 30 to be blocky (albeit manageable) and I find the glock 36 to be an awkward pistol with a dismal reliability record. Is there any particular manner in which I can articulate my thoughts that will be acceptable to you, and not lead to arrogant chatter in my direction aimed at trying to make me look somehow inferior to you?
Are you even reading this thread, or did you just decide to pop in and spout off?
Look, stop being childish, I just asked you a question, you responded with this,
To put it briefly, I find them visually quite unappealing...That is your quote, isn't it? :rolleyes:
On the contrary, I thank you for your honesty, you are essentially choosing the HK based on nothing other than vanity & emotion. As for myself, I choose them based solely upon their utility....
Look, stop being childish
really?
Can we get back on topic please?
really?
Can we get back on topic please?
This is the topic, you freaking brought it up, I asked you a very reasonable question, shall I repost your quotes? Choosing your carry pistol based upon how it looks, is a highly questionable practice!
BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their form, not their function.
It's okay to admire a firearms function & form, I own plenty of S&W wheelguns for just that reason. However, to make a choice based solely upon it's looks, or largely because of them, is a little vain, and more than a little foolish.
I strongly suspected this was the case with yourself, as you clearly found the G26 acceptable, but mysteriously found it's breatheren so "totally disappointing" despite the fact that they are virtually identical mechanisms....Good luck to you...
"BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their FUNCTION, not their FORM. "
Fixed it for you... :big_boss:
This is the topic, you freaking brought it up, I asked you a very reasonable question, shall I repost your quotes? Choosing your carry pistol based upon how it looks, is a highly questionable practice!
BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their form, not their function.
It's okay to admire a firearms function & form, I own plenty of S&W wheelguns for just that reason. However, to make a choice based solely upon it's looks, or largely because of them, is a little vain, and more than a little foolish.
:suicide:
I really didn't feel like taking a great deal of effort in explaining myself, and you just can't get over it. I don't want to buy a glock 30, and I don't want to own another glock 36, I've tried to explain that to you and you are just hell bent on trying to make yourself look awesome. So, you're absolutely right, I'm vain, inexperienced, and an absolutely uninformed buyer. You are superior to me in all of these ways, and your penis is bigger.
If it makes you sleep better at night, "I don't like the way they look" (prefaced with "to put it briefly") can be expanded to say that I think they look and feel clumsy, I don't like the feux 3 finger grip, I don't really like the way they feel in my hands (yes, they feel different to me than my glock 26, and my glock 17) and I don't want to buy either. They function identical to every other glock on the planet, I'm certain this doesn't need repeating (although you chose it necessary). The internal components, firing mechanism, shooting mechanics, and grip angle are all equal to every other glock (again, duh), but they feel very different and it is of course pertinent to mention (again) that the glock 36 has a rather dismal history of reliability.
In the end, it's moot. I've said it already, but apparently it didn't sink in. This thread is not about glock 30 vs hk45c. This thread is for serious shooters (preferably who have experienced the adrenaline dump) to get their opinion on concurrently running two totally different magazine release systems. If you would like to compare the glock 30 to the hk45c, please create your own thread to do so.
BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their form, not their function.
Are you serious? HK is one of the best functioning pistols out there. You might not like them, but they're excellent, well built pistols.
"BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their FUNCTION, not their FORM. "
Fixed it for you... :big_boss:
Good to see an opinion that makes sense :happy:
If you're interested in a German pistol I've heard great things about the PPQ and everywhere but HKPro.net seems to prefer it to the Heckler and Koch design based on its frighteningly quick trigger reset and its price of about $540.
I do not remember seeing someone post that it was used in a class.
Might be worth testing, but if it doesn't work a P30 with a "Batman" grip might be your new friend.
If the OP is choosing his pistol based on looks (i don't think he is) I would have to agree with you. To say people choose HKs on form not function is retarded. I shoot them but am no fan boy but come on, they are in service around the world and have been for half a century due to their reliability and effectiveness. Love them hate them whatever.
This is the topic, you freaking brought it up, I asked you a very reasonable question, shall I repost your quotes? Choosing your carry pistol based upon how it looks, is a highly questionable practice!
BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their form, not their function.
It's okay to admire a firearms function & form, I own plenty of S&W wheelguns for just that reason. However, to make a choice based solely upon it's looks, or largely because of them, is a little vain, and more than a little foolish.
I strongly suspected this was the case with yourself, as you clearly found the G26 acceptable, but mysteriously found it's breatheren so "totally disappointing" despite the fact that they are virtually identical mechanisms....Good luck to you...
As usual I agree with newyork, who happens to be very, very educated in regards to handguns....much more than myself:)
The HK people in this thread are not the ones acting like a fanboy. Just because the OP had something negative to say about glocks, doesn't mean that somebody should have gotten their panties in a wad.
As usual I agree with newyork, who happens to be very, very educated in regards to handguns....much more than myself:)
The HK people in this thread are not the ones acting like a fanboy. Just because the OP had something negative to say about glocks, doesn't mean that somebody should have gotten their panties in a wad.
Yep, no gun is perfect.
Are you serious? HK is one of the best functioning pistols out there. You might not like them, but they're excellent, well built pistols.
I didn't say, or allude to anything in your post! I've not made a single disdainful comment of the HK mechanism, aside from noting that the "spiderman" patterned stocks were an obvious effort at appealing to a certain customer base.
As to my dislike, I own three of them...:rolleyes:
I didn't say, or allude to anything in your post! I've not made a single disdainful comment of the HK mechanism, aside from noting that the "spiderman" patterned stocks were an obvious effort at appealing to a certain customer base.
As to my dislike, I own three of them...:rolleyes:
who? marvel comic book nerds?
If the OP is choosing his pistol based on looks (i don't think he is) I would have to agree with you. To say people choose HKs on form not function is retarded.
To put it briefly, I find them visually quite unappealing
His own words, I guess you agree with me...As to your little shot at referring to me as "retarded," I didn't say that everyone chooses an HK because of form, I was alluding to a certain "very young" subset of the marketplace.
Did you think the "spiderman" pattern on the stocks was an effort at appealing to men & women over "ahh" lets say twenty-five? ;)
. Do you think that if you'd split that number and fired 7,000 rds through your Glock 19 and 7,000 rds through your P30 that you would have ended up with the same skill level on both by Oct 2011?
To answer your question literally, I think I may have ended at a higher level had I split them sequentially 7K Glock - 7K P30. In other words, I may have been a better shooter now if I'd switched to a more challenging gun [I find P30 a bit harder to shoot] earlier. Now, this is speculative - I may have not gotten anywhere far if P30 ended up too hard for me. In fact, the jury is still out.
However, I don't want to answer your question literally because such answer takes things out of the context. I fully agree with you that mastery of a global skill is impossible without getting competent with one pistol at a time. I am simply of opinion that intelligent switching of platforms and persistence in getting good with ones that seem hard initially is beneficial, not detrimental.
On a separate note, the moment I posted my performance results online, the shooting gods graced me today with 6 inch 25 yard groups, I missed the paper altogether twice with support hand and once with strong hand out of 20 rounds each, and I couldn't get a clean run on the FAST. I think I need to shut up.
His own words, I guess you agree with me...As to your little shot at referring to me as "retarded," I didn't say that everyone chooses an HK because of form, I was alluding to a certain "very young" subset of the marketplace.
Did you think the "spiderman" pattern on the stocks was an effort at appealing to men & women over "ahh" lets say twenty-five? ;)
Let's take a deep breath and not get this thread locked. Whether you're really irritated or not means nothing when people start typing angry posts that rudely refer to you and a preconceived notion that you're a "You suck and we hate you," sort of fellow.
I personally think Heckler and Koch is embarrassed by 25 year old mall ninjas, that's probably why they don't make guns geared towards civilians. It's okay to disagree with me on this, I don't mind.
Alaskapopo
01-12-12, 21:54
The fact is yes you will be a better shooter if you stick to just one platform. However how much better is debatable. We all shoot carbines here and most of us have shotguns and we have pistols so that is three different weapon systems to master. Oh no how can it be done?
The simple fact is the human brain and body are capable of a lot more than some on here give it credit for. I agree new shooters should stick to one platform until the fundamentals are mastered. Once that is done if they want to try different things no harm no foul.
I would place better in pistol matches if I did not shoot three gun and spent all my time practicing with just pistols. But on the other hand I can and have beat people in three gun who normally kick my ass in pistol only matches.
Pat
His own words, I guess you agree with me...As to your little shot at referring to me as "retarded," I didn't say that everyone chooses an HK because of form, I was alluding to a certain "very young" subset of the marketplace.
Did you think the "spiderman" pattern on the stocks was an effort at appealing to men & women over "ahh" lets say twenty-five? ;)
Wow, it's like arguing with my kids. I have expanded on that statement in two separate responses to you, yet you continue to grab that quote and run with it. Seriously get off it.
Let's take a deep breath and not get this thread locked.
I personally think Heckler and Koch is embarrassed by 25 year old mall ninjas, that's probably why they don't make guns geared towards civilians. It's okay to disagree with me on this, I don't mind.
I don't think it looks good when you resort to the "take a deep breath" sort of ad homs. I don't hate HK's, and I don't really get to excited either defending, or criticizing them. I merely thought it odd that the OP would find one Glock so excellent, and the others so disappointing, and I asked him a question as to why. He's the one who said it was a visual thing.
I found that curious as the HK engineers very definitely went for a particular look. Here's an excerpt from an interview with two guys who would know,
Ken: I shot one in Germany and thought, “This gun is great.”
When we went to SHOT Show, they had a mock-up with the spiderman grip. Obviously it had been heavily influenced by the P30 at that point. They showed it to us and Larry and I were both like, “You’ve got to be kidding.” They asked what we thought and I said, “This is dumb. It’s a bad idea. It’s a big mistake. Don’t go with it.” And you could tell it’s not what they wanted to hear.
Larry: So they went around and asked enough people until they got the answer they wanted. General Meyer (then CEO of HK, replacing Ernst Mauch) liked it and that was all the engineers needed to hear. From then on, the full size gun had the spiderman grip.
As it turns out, the grip is fine. It’s not a big deal. Where they ****’ed up royally — and with the P30, too — is the whole molded trough or groove in the trigger guard, combined with a lack of overtravel stop, combined with the shelf design of the ambi mag release. It leads to a situation for many people, myself included, when they fire the gun the gun torques and twists in their hands and bites the bottom edge of their trigger finger.
I had a prototype for a while and after shooting it, I called them and told them, “Dude, you need to fix this now. This is a real problem.” But they didn’t touch it. The Germans went into production with it. That has been the one thing … they ****’ed that up. Those were changes they got from the P30 without our input and carried it over to the full size HK45.
That’s why I went to [gunsmith David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts] to do his modification, what he calls the Vickers Mod. He gets rid of the trough, does an internal overtravel stop (which also makes the trigger feel better), and rounds the edges on the paddle mag releases on the HK45 and P30. That does away with all the problems. It’s night and day in my book.
As it turns out, what they did to the grip was OK but the whole interface between the trigger guard and all that was wrong.
I don't think it looks good when you resort to the "take a deep breath" sort of ad homs. I don't hate HK's, and I don't really get to excited either defending, or criticizing them. I merely thought it odd that the OP would find one Glock so excellent, and the others so disappointing, and I asked him a question as to why. He's the one who said it was a visual thing.
I found that curious as the HK engineers very definitely went for a particular look. Here's an excerpt from an interview with two guys who would know,
I believe I said that people might take your post the wrong way and become defensive. As I also said it really is okay that we disagree, that happens sometimes.
The only thing about your post that I disagree with, to an extent worthy of mentioning, is that you cut out the most important part of my post. The part that was in agreement with your other posts that said you enjoy Heckler and Koch pistols.
Denali, I said that statement was retarded, not you. Heckler and Koch doesn't make guns with 25 year old mall ninjas in mind. They have been known for not even considering civilians at all.
This thread has derailed because of immature arguments. It should get back on track, lose the fan boy loyalty, or be closed. The original direction has been lost.
davebee456
01-12-12, 22:51
besides the latest gen4 and late gen3 FAIL
Glock and Hk are the only gun companies that I feel I want to own.
having one or two of each like a G19 and a G26 plus a Hk45C and a P30 would be ideal, just have to shoot them all enough to be good with them.
With regards to the OP's question (Long). A very short time ago I would have
begged to differ with Rob S post. However, I have to pretty much agree with him. It all depends on what one considers a good, great,proficient shooter/marksman (you fill in the description) or what
level of performance one is happy with.
I only started any real shooting in 2009. I now own 8 Glocks, 5 G19's
1 dedicated G19 AA .22LR, 1 G26 and a G20 (the only non 9mm I own). I also own 2 HKP7 PSP's. I only own the P7's because I loved the looks first, and the compact size. I won't carry anything less than
9mm (no .380's) and the P7's slim lines fit the bill for me for those rare instances where the G26's bulk proved to be a hindrance (in my case at work dress codes) and a couple other instances.
I've taken several classes with the Glocks , and one with the P7 and
actually worked out my own speed/tact reloads with its heel release
with a decent amount of speed and proficiency, enough so I convinced myself I could carry it confidently.
Good handgun shooting is extremely hard IMHO, even me averaging
1000-1200 rounds a month(sometimes more) and recently having constant access to USPSA champion Shannon Smith since mid july,
only recently have I begun to even smell the level I want to attain.
The last week or so I've been working heavily on marksmanship (I have a looong way to go) I've been keeping 6 shot groups on 3 inch
SNC pasters at 19yrds in an effort to perfect trigger press.
A couple of trips I took the P7's with me and after working the glocks
I had problems hitting the paster at 10 yrds with the P7's. Mind you,
the P7 is inherently/mechanically more accurate than any of my glocks, but the trigger/grip difference is too much unless I'm gonna ignore the glocks for it. I'm not .
All of this is to say, if you're really serious about getting REAL good
with your carry weapon/competition weapon prowess stick with one
platform.
My 2 wonderful near mint condition P7's along with my Matt Delfatti
holster will be going up for sale soon, the G26 is going to have work
where the G19's wont.
If you're interested in a German pistol I've heard great things about the PPQ and everywhere but HKPro.net seems to prefer it to the Heckler and Koch design based on its frighteningly quick trigger reset and its price of about $540.
I do not remember seeing someone post that it was used in a class.
Might be worth testing, but if it doesn't work a P30 with a "Batman" grip might be your new friend.
HKPro.com :D
Actually PPQ had warm welcome at HKPro, being as close as possible to striker fired P30. I had opportunity to shoot first prototypes of PPQ (designated P99D RAD at this time) back in 2008. It made very good impression, even it had stupid DAO (real DAO, not Glock type DAO) trigger this time. It's "spider grip" strongly influenced by P30 and P30 grip is rare situation when HK does not do something themselves. P30 grip and grip panels exchange system is developed for HK by Nill Griffe Gmbh - custom grips maker company from Germany.
For CCW reliability I will stick with P2000SK and HK45C, but for competition use (IPSC Production) I seriously consider changing P30L LEM to PPQ.
I should have made that clearer because you're right, it was well received on HKPro. But you said there were reliability issues?
I should have made that clearer because you're right, it was well received on HKPro. But you said there were reliability issues?
Not with PPQ that I know, but it is relatively new pistol.
There were some with P99. Actually more durability than reliability (but durability problem turns into reliability problem when you need to use gun and it just broke). Mostly with rear sights falling out on carry guns (we have over 50,000 P99 issued to Police in Poland) and barrel feed ramp and unlocking lug separating from barrel chamber - Walther did not made barrel from one piece, but instead cold welded feed ramp with unlocking lug to chamber. This was cured on Polish made P99s with use of one piece CHF barrel from FB Radom. To be clear, this barrel issue is not common, but known on early P99 with higher round count. On the other hand I know of P99 that were shot to a point that rifling was gone from barrel (original Walther button rifled barrel) with no other issues.
BTW In Europe PPQ cost same or more than HK P30
I think you answered your own question in your original post. Muscle memory is key. If you train enough with both styles, your mind and hands will remember which weapon they're operating as soon as you grip it. It will be subconscious, and you'll just work the weapon properly.
I carried a USP .45 on duty with a glock as a BUG for years, and now carry a P220 (not by choice) with the same glock as a BUG. I've never tried to release the HK mag by searching for a button, and I've never reached for a front mag release on the P220 or glock no matter how much I switch between platforms.
Fortunately I've never had to reload while on the clock, and hope I never have to, but I'm confident in my training, and my ability. I train often and train hard with duty and BUGs. We train with elevated heart rates under stress to attempt to help reduce the effect the adrenalin dump will have in a real scenario.
I think you answered your own question in your original post. Muscle memory is key. If you train enough with both styles, your mind and hands will remember which weapon they're operating as soon as you grip it. It will be subconscious, and you'll just work the weapon properly.
I carried a USP .45 on duty with a glock as a BUG for years, and now carry a P220 (not by choice) with the same glock as a BUG. I've never tried to release the HK mag by searching for a button, and I've never reached for a front mag release on the P220 or glock no matter how much I switch between platforms.
Fortunately I've never had to reload while on the clock, and hope I never have to, but I'm confident in my training, and my ability. I train often and train hard with duty and BUGs. We train with elevated heart rates under stress to attempt to help reduce the effect the adrenalin dump will have in a real scenario.
I don't mean to single you out for a thank you, because I don't want others to feel I don't value their opinions as well, but this above post is exactly the input I was looking for and I appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences.
jasonhgross
01-13-12, 14:23
Concentrate on mindset, tactics, skills, and equipment -- in that order. The least important consideration is equipment. Pick one reliable pistol, buy two (and maybe the compact too). Train with 1, verify reliability with 2 and carry that one. Why complicate an already complicated thing.
Figured I'd give an update.
I went to the range the other day and rented an hk45c, and I absolutely hated it. I won't argue bore axis as it relates to accuracy, but FOR ME the notably higher bore axis, combined with the really slim (feeling) grip frame, as well as the long (albeit smoth) double action trigger made the gun exceptionally un-shootable for me.
They had a glock 30 there, so I shot it and found it actually felt a lot better in my hand than I remember. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the last glock 30 I handled was not a short frame, this one was. I found it quite shootable and surprisingly pretty comfortable to grip and easy to get back to target.
I am going to get some more trigger time with one in the next few weeks, mostly to make sure I can shoot it one handed, but I would anticipate purchasing one sometime soon. On a side note, does anyone know if my MTAC (for my 9mm frame glocks) will carry the glock 30? I recognize that the glock 30 is thicker, but with the soft leather back I'm wondering if there's enough flex for it to work?
I appreciate the comments on this thread, just wanted to update anyone who cares.
it's not surprising that you prefer the Glock because the trigger is easier to shoot with.
Was the DAO the light model? The HK light LEM in DAO is one of my favorite triggers by far.
It was a standard double/single.
You obviously like the Glock so I say go with it, but find a light LEM DAO HK somewhere and shoot it. I love that trigger. It's nothing like their standard triggers.
Eurodriver
01-27-12, 18:50
There is a very strong argument for using one type of pistol exclusively.
Frankly, I do not see much purpose in owning/shooting different autoloaders.
I agree completely.
I can pick up my Glock 19 and it functions the same as my Glock 26 which functions the same as my Glock 30.
I don't want decockers, I don't want a safety, I don't want a grip safety. I want a KISS handgun thats just like every other one I own.
You obviously like the Glock so I say go with it, but find a light LEM DAO HK somewhere and shoot it. I love that trigger. It's nothing like their standard triggers.
I will seek one out, but honestly I think it was the higher bore axis that bothered me more. I might try and find a USPc and see if it's more balanced.
You obviously like the Glock so I say go with it, but find a light LEM DAO HK somewhere and shoot it. I love that trigger. It's nothing like their standard triggers.
Too bad the reset on the LEM sucks. Especially when compared to a Glock.
Alaskapopo
01-27-12, 20:52
Too bad the reset on the LEM sucks. Especially when compared to a Glock.
I agree. But some people like revolver like pulls (long and smooth vs short and light with a short reset) Me personally I will take a shorter pull with a quick reset every time.
pat
Nephrology
01-27-12, 21:25
Figured I'd give an update.
I went to the range the other day and rented an hk45c, and I absolutely hated it. I won't argue bore axis as it relates to accuracy, but FOR ME the notably higher bore axis, combined with the really slim (feeling) grip frame, as well as the long (albeit smoth) double action trigger made the gun exceptionally un-shootable for me.
They had a glock 30 there, so I shot it and found it actually felt a lot better in my hand than I remember. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the last glock 30 I handled was not a short frame, this one was. I found it quite shootable and surprisingly pretty comfortable to grip and easy to get back to target.
I am going to get some more trigger time with one in the next few weeks, mostly to make sure I can shoot it one handed, but I would anticipate purchasing one sometime soon. On a side note, does anyone know if my MTAC (for my 9mm frame glocks) will carry the glock 30? I recognize that the glock 30 is thicker, but with the soft leather back I'm wondering if there's enough flex for it to work?
I appreciate the comments on this thread, just wanted to update anyone who cares.
You have a holster for a Glock 19? The MTAC for my 19 fit my buddy's G30 one day when my 19 was being loaned to a friend to try out. It does stretch out the leather a bit, not sure how it would hold up over time.
I agree. But some people like revolver like pulls (long and smooth vs short and light with a short reset) Me personally I will take a shorter pull with a quick reset every time.
pat
The thing about LEM is that you have no choice but to ride the reset after the long 1st pull. And the reset is long with a lot of travel before the break.
[posted at the risk of perpetuating a sidebar question within this thread]
On a side note, does anyone know if my MTAC (for my 9mm frame glocks) will carry the glock 30? I recognize that the glock 30 is thicker, but with the soft leather back I'm wondering if there's enough flex for it to work?
It seems you've got confirmation from Nephrology on the "will it fit" question, but I would add that Comp-Tac will (for $38) sell you a G30-specific half body to go with your existing MTAC leather base...I should know, as I have one sitting in my holster box. Linky here: http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=98
I didn't find the reset bad at all. BUT I do have a non-S.R.T. Sig P220 as a duty weapon so I might just be used to a longer reset with all the rounds the P220 sees.
I didn't find the reset bad at all. BUT I do have a non-S.R.T. Sig P220 as a duty weapon so I might just be used to a longer reset with all the rounds the P220 sees.
Glocks have spoiled me, when it comes to reset.
I just picked up another Glock today. A new Glock 17 Gen 4 so I'm definitely a Glock fan. I shoot the USP, and my M&P better than my Glocks tho.
........so did i. another gen 4 17. great pistol! 300 flawless rounds thru it. honeslty, don't miss the bulkyness and poor triggers on my now-sold hks, one bit.
I spent some more time shooting the 30sf and really took a liking to it. I had a buddy that knew I was looking and texted me last night saying he's getting rid of his and offered me a screaming deal on it. Needless to say I purchased it this am, I'm now a g30sf owner!
I didn't say, or allude to anything in your post! I've not made a single disdainful comment of the HK mechanism, aside from noting that the "spiderman" patterned stocks were an obvious effort at appealing to a certain customer base.
BTW, you happened to have substantiated a longstanding suspicion of mine as to how HK pistols are chosen, it's why the boy's at HK insisted on that ridiculous spiderman pattern on the P30's, those pistols are chosen for their form, not their function.
You actually did allude to it when you said "those pistols...". If you were referring merely to grips, one would think you'd have said "those grips are...". No idea why you've managed to piss of so many people in such a short thread :suicide2: if someone wants to chose a pistol for reasons different than you, who are you to say its wrong? It's his cash, not yours. And to me the grip looks like patterned stippling, never heard the Batman comment til visiting the Internet.
Now for my attempt at a constructive response to the OPs question. In OPs situation having a G26 doesn't seem like a problem, assuming you won't shoot it as much...I don't. I merely keep it for when a full size won't conceal.
I recently sold off a G19 for a HK: good deal, couldn't pass it up and I shoot the P30 better. IMO owning and shooting both would detract from any further training I receive while using the HK. Once proficient in both, the user should be able to adjust between the pistols without a problem.
Shooting is learned and if you do it correctly, instinctive. I point HK's quite naturally and gLoCk's point wrong and are uncomfortable.
I won't own a gLoCk for that and many other reasons.:nono:
Alaskapopo
02-22-12, 21:56
Shooting is learned and if you do it correctly, instinctive. I point HK's quite naturally and gLoCk's point wrong and are uncomfortable.
I won't own a gLoCk for that and many other reasons.:nono:
I find that Glocks point just fine and are comfortable with the Gen 4 being even more so. The USP I used to own was a brick in the hand. The newer HK's are much improved in that aspect. However their triggers still suck the big one and their bore axis is still way too high. So I won't own one again.
Pat
Basically it comes down to preference. Done.
I did not read the entire thread, but here is my take: I love HKs. My first weapon was the 45c, however I am issued a Glock 22 and I purchased a 27 to carry as a backup once I get out of the Academy (is it April 12th yet?).
With this in mind, I have decided to put up my HK. I will use it as a "night stand" gun and range gun, but the way I grip my HK is different from the way I grip my Glock. In addition, the trigger is a lot shorter on my HK (8lb trigger in my 22).
I have already run into problems with the above while learning to shoot. I don't know how good you are, I am still a novice handgun shooter and this is my first real structured training. Therefore, I may not be in the same boat, but these are my reasons for putting up my HK.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-23-12, 01:34
A good shooter ultimately will shoot either platform well. There will be a knee-jerk reaction that this or that gun is better for whatever reason (usually simply because that gun is more familiar but depending on what gun you have you will use different arguments bore axis is code for I like Glocks, ergonomics is code for I like my P30).
Just pick something, the insanity will never end in any case. You will eventually toy with them all. For a while the temptation will be to standardize but after a that you will start to enjoy the challenge of shooting different guns.
I shot a g17 for years but eventually got rid of it and picked up a P30. From a shooting perspective the end result is the same reached by different means. Have fun.
Alaskapopo
02-23-12, 01:40
A good shooter ultimately will shoot either platform well. There will be a knee-jerk reaction that this or that gun is better for whatever reason (usually simply because that gun is more familiar but depending on what gun you have you will use different arguments bore axis is code for I like Glocks, ergonomics is code for I like my P30).
Just pick something, the insanity will never end in any case. You will eventually toy with them all. For a while the temptation will be to standardize but after a that you will start to enjoy the challenge of shooting different guns.
I shot a g17 for years but eventually got rid of it and picked up a P30. From a shooting perspective the end result is the same reached by different means. Have fun.
A higher bore axis magnifies muzzle flip this is simple physics. This in turn slows your accurate rate of fire. Its something I noticed quite a bit when I had a HK USP in 45 acp with +P loads when compared to a Glock 21 with the same ammo. In 9mm it less noticiable because the round has less recoil to start with. However its still an important factor and its part of the reason that Glocks and 1911's are so popular in competition shooting circles where shooting fast and accurately is what counts. You don't see many HK's in IDPA, USPSA or three gun. I do like the ergonomics on the new HK45 and P30. What I would like to see is a blend of a PPQ trigger and ergonomics with a Glocks bore axis and you would have one hell of a good pistol.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-23-12, 04:17
Exactly
A higher bore axis magnifies muzzle flip this is simple physics. This in turn slows your accurate rate of fire. Its something I noticed quite a bit when I had a HK USP in 45 acp with +P loads when compared to a Glock 21 with the same ammo.
You are connecting right symptom to bad source. Actually in USP series bore axis has nothing to do with this. It is how fast guns goes back on target that matters (flips up or kicks straight - does not matter really, but some people just like one or other better). And here is a problem with HK USP series - HK "(too) clever" recoil system (it work very different from Glock gen4, Sprinco, Recoil Master or any other dual spring setup), that mitigates felt recoil but makes return on target slower and sight tracking harder. Actually hacking USP recoil system into single spring with solid bushing in place of second spring allows it to shoot much faster. It feels quite different gun after this mod. No wonder why HK decided to take step back and use single spring setup for P2000, P30 and HK45/C series.
I was shooting HK USP Expert .40SW in IPSC and got myself STI 2011 in .40SW. What I found is that STI had same bore axis and flipped up as much as HK or even more (until I ported slide on STI). But it was just getting back on target much faster.
You don't see many HK's in IDPA, USPSA or three gun.
That is generally correct, even though I shot an HK USP45c and P7 in IDPA. However, your inference is this is because they don't work well? I disagree, they work very effectively. The primary reason you don't see them being used is because gLoCk's are so cheap and are usually pretty reliable.
A good shooter ultimately will shoot either platform well.
Yes, good shooters adjust to their tools.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 08:30
That is generally correct, even though I shot an HK USP45c and P7 in IDPA. However, your inference is this is because they don't work well? I disagree, they work very effectively. The primary reason you don't see them being used is because gLoCk's are so cheap and are usually pretty reliable.
Yes, good shooters adjust to their tools.
It's not just that you don't see many, it's that very few are competitive. I'm trying to think but I can't remember a time when a shooter using an HK45/P30/USP won a national match. Even if there are a few, the winners slots are dominated by Glock.
That's not really a question of cost.
I think it's wise for people to own, and practice with a broad range of both pistols and rifles alike. I shoot regularly, and own Sigs, Glocks, and Hks.
I also see a great benefit to standardizing to one platform. It will probably make you a much better shooter, if only with that gun. In most situations, that will be fine.
Glocks are a bit awkward, especially if you're shooting one for the first time. IMO, the grip angle is totally bad. It takes some getting used to, and hopefully the Gen4's pretty much solve this issue. (I still haven't shot one.)
Hks are a very similar system to a whole variety of stuff currently on the market, both in grip angle and trigger group. If you shoot Hks and only Hks, you'll probably be able to shoot a whole range of guns well. If you ONLY shoot Glocks, a whole range of stuff is gonna feel pretty awkward.
Buy both, shoot the shit out of both.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 10:12
I think it's wise for people to own, and practice with a broad range of both pistols and rifles alike. I shoot regularly, and own Sigs, Glocks, and Hks.
I totally disagree with this. This requires a huge amount of investment in guns/magazines/gear and represents a significant opportunity cost that is better spent on training and focusing on one, MAYBE two platforms.
If you shoot Hks and only Hks, you'll probably be able to shoot a whole range of guns well. If you ONLY shoot Glocks, a whole range of stuff is gonna feel pretty awkward.
How do you quantify that? If you're saying that the high bore axis and gnarly trigger of the HK means that shooting any other gun is relatively easier, I guess I can see that. I don't view that as a reason to choose an HK though.
Glocks are significantly less awkward than HKs. Smaller size, better trigger, grip angle is not a big deal at all. Glocks are also fairly ubiquitous and are pretty much the standard by which all other poly frame guns are judged. I prefer the M&P but it's very hard to argue that if you shoot an HK well, you'll be able to shoot a Glock but not the reverse.
I totally disagree with this. This requires a huge amount of investment in guns/magazines/gear and represents a significant opportunity cost that is better spent on training and focusing on one, MAYBE two platforms.
How do you quantify that? If you're saying that the high bore axis and gnarly trigger of the HK means that shooting any other gun is relatively easier, I guess I can see that. I don't view that as a reason to choose an HK though.
Glocks are significantly less awkward than HKs. Smaller size, better trigger, grip angle is not a big deal at all. Glocks are also fairly ubiquitous and are pretty much the standard by which all other poly frame guns are judged. I prefer the M&P but it's very hard to argue that if you shoot an HK well, you'll be able to shoot a Glock but not the reverse.
Gnarly tigger? What the hell kind of Hks have you been shooting?
I was merely reffering to the much more standard grip angle of the Hk, and the DA/SA trigger system. I like Glocks as much as the next guy, but I'm not about to pretend that the striker fired trigger with no specific breaking point, and 5 ish pound weight is "good."
It's certainly not this way for everybody, but I'll never be content with one gun. I love guns, and I enjoy having a different variety of them. If you're on a strict budget, and don't have the money to buy a whole bunch of guns, then of course that isn't a good idea for you.
Grip angle is a hugely important part of defensive shooting. There's no time to line up your sights and shoot. If you are using a gun that doesn't point naturally for you, you're just going to miss your target, peroid. If you don't point Glocks well initially, sure you can fix that with rounds downrange, but when comparing it to other guns, it will be strikingly different. The only gun I can think of off the top of my head that points like a Glock is the Steyr M series. Most guns out there have a similar grip angle to 1911's, if not the exact same
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 11:04
Gnarly tigger? What the hell kind of Hks have you been shooting?
I've owned two USPs. I've shot HK45s, P30s. Trigger sucks dude.
I was merely reffering to the much more standard grip angle of the Hk, and the DA/SA trigger system. I like Glocks as much as the next guy, but I'm not about to pretend that the striker fired trigger with no specific breaking point, and 5 ish pound weight is "good."
Beats the hell out of the HK and I personally love the Glock trigger, so do a lot of people. A 5lb trigger is next to nothing. If you have trouble mastering it, well I'm not sure what to say. But gear shouldn't compensate for bad technique.
It's certainly not this way for everybody, but I'll never be content with one gun. I love guns, and I enjoy having a different variety of them. If you're on a strict budget, and don't have the money to buy a whole bunch of guns, then of course that isn't a good idea for you.
Your money, your call but it's pretty bad advice for most anyone else. Even if money isn't an issue for you, that money is far better spent on training/practice than it is on being a gun collector. That's what opportunity cost means...you're giving up the opportunity to train/practice and master one platform for the opportunity to own a bunch of different platforms, with limited training/practice and by extension an inability to master any particular one.
Grip angle is a hugely important part of defensive shooting. There's no time to line up your sights and shoot. If you are using a gun that doesn't point naturally for you, you're just going to miss your target, peroid. If you don't point Glocks well initially, sure you can fix that with rounds downrange, but when comparing it to other guns, it will be strikingly different. The only gun I can think of off the top of my head that points like a Glock is the Steyr M series. Most guns out there have a similar grip angle to 1911's, if not the exact same
There is no objectively good or bad grip angle. The only part of grip angle that's important is being familiar with the grip angle of the gun you have. A person practiced and familiar with the grip angle on his Glock is certainly no worse off than one practiced and familiar with the grip angle on his HK. This is another reason why switching between myriad guns is not the best idea. Pick one, maybe two and then master them.
Different grip angles, different triggers, different bore axes, different sights are all a recipe for inconsistency. Inconsistency is the enemy of accuracy and proficiency.
You're casting an awful lot of generalities/broad brush stokes. Why can't people accept what works for some doesn't work for others, and vice versa?
Disagreement does not equal blasphemy.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 12:18
You're casting an awful lot of generalities/broad brush stokes. Why can't people accept what works for some doesn't work for others, and vice versa?
Disagreement does not equal blasphemy.
One of the cool things about generalities is that in general, they happen to be true. Likewise who said anything about blasphemy? I'm talking about practical reality.
Show me one reputable instructor, competitor, trigger puller that argues that it is better to practice on and expend resources on a variety of different platforms than picking one and mastering it.
If you like the HK best, than shoot the HK. But if you're going to claim that it has the best trigger, the best grip angle or that if you shoot it you'll shoot other guns well, whereas if you shoot a Glock you'll only shoot a Glock well, than give me some basis for quantifying that because otherwise it strikes me as errornet nonsense.
PrivateCitizen
02-23-12, 12:26
I stopped fidgeting about this a while ago.
I lamented my predicament, fidgeted, did my hand wringing, and everything over this platform, that platform, should I/shouldn't I … what about this/that contingency. I thought I was gonna go all M&P, thought I had it all figured out based on input from FAR too many places.
I thought it into the ground.
Then I woke up.
I shoot/train for one primary reason and only one. Self defense. Sure, I can get some enjoyment out of it, but that is tertiary. (Secondary reason is the same as the primary).
Once I was honest with myself about it it was easy.
I got a G19, then a G26, then another of each. Aside from the initial G26 mags the rest fit every time.
I never have to think about what mag this is, I never have to adjust my grip, think twice about the trigger, the action, the caliber.
If I am ever in a moment of needing to employ this tool there is a magnificently long list of shit I don't have to think about.
Sure they may all seem academic or account for micro-increments of time. But guess what … I don't have to think about that shit either.
So, I'll shoot a buddy's new whiz-bang, ultra German, whatevers. I'm sure it will be fun. But in my sphere less is far more.
One of the cool things about generalities is that in general, they happen to be true. Likewise who said anything about blasphemy? I'm talking about practical reality.
Show me one reputable instructor, competitor, trigger puller that argues that it is better to practice on and expend resources on a variety of different platforms than picking one and mastering it.
If you like the HK best, than shoot the HK. But if you're going to claim that it has the best trigger, the best grip angle or that if you shoot it you'll shoot other guns well, whereas if you shoot a Glock you'll only shoot a Glock well, than give me some basis for quantifying that because otherwise it strikes me as errornet nonsense.
Good shit right there!!! The worst thing the alien Glock grip angle might cause is your shots to hit a skosh higher rapidly at close range. If you're off the target your snatching the trigger. So if you intended COM; you hit high chest were you should have been aiming in the first place. ;) Perfection. lol
One of the cool things about generalities is that in general, they happen to be true.
:suicide2:
Likewise who said anything about blasphemy? I'm talking about practical reality.
I was commenting on how you handle differing opinions (as if those with different opinions than you were blaspheming by disagreeing). Reference missed. Never mind.
Show me one reputable instructor, competitor, trigger puller that argues that it is better to practice on and expend resources on a variety of different platforms than picking one and mastering it.
I wasn't saying that was or wasn't a good idea. It's up to the person deciding based on their cash flow, training, expertise, etc. with the platform in question.
If you like the HK best, than shoot the HK. But if you're going to claim that it has the best trigger, the best grip angle or that if you shoot it you'll shoot other guns well, whereas if you shoot a Glock you'll only shoot a Glock well, than give me some basis for quantifying that because otherwise it strikes me as errornet nonsense.
I actually like both and shoot both. And I never claimed anything like that. Kindly cite where I did. How can one quantify the statement "I prefer the grip on ____"? Would you like a note from my orthopedist on which one physically fits my hand better? Jesus.
I'm not directly arguing any of your points one way or the other. Just pointing out it's ignorant to make blanket statements that should apply to all reading your 'guidance'. And to hell with whomever disagrees with you :blink:
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 12:38
:suicide2:
I was commenting on how you handle differing opinions (as if those with different opinions than you were blaspheming by disagreeing). Reference missed. Never mind.
So wait...I'm not allowed to disagree?
How is that for handling differing opinions?
Pot meet kettle.
I wasn't saying that was or wasn't a good idea. It's up to the person deciding based on their cash flow, training, expertise, etc. with the platform in question.
I never said otherwise. My statement wasn't meant for him, as I said 'his money, his choice'. My statement was meant for others who might read his words and think he knows what he's talking about.
That's the thing about opportunity cost...it doesn't matter how big or small your bank account is...you still have a "cost" associated with any choice you make. Learn it, love it...live it.
I actually like both and shoot both. And I never claimed anything like that. Kindly cite where I did. How can one quantify the statement "I prefer the grip on ____"? Would you like a note from my orthopedist on which one physically fits my hand better? Jesus.
YOU didn't say that...HE said "If you shoot Hks and only Hks, you'll probably be able to shoot a whole range of guns well. If you ONLY shoot Glocks, a whole range of stuff is gonna feel pretty awkward."
I'm not directly arguing any of your points one way or the other. Just pointing out you look like a medium-high function retard when you make blanket statements that should apply to all reading your 'guidance'. And to hell with whomever disagrees with you :blink:
Oh please. Talk about a high functioning retard. :suicide2:
So wait...I'm not allowed to disagree?
Never said that either. My point was it wasn't that you did, it was the manner in which you did it. Clearly a nerve has been struck and I'm not making my point. Nevermind
Well, at least my Hk trigger is decent.
You have some really good points about inconsistency Gutshot.....
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 12:52
Never said that either. My point was it wasn't that you did, it was the manner in which you did it. Clearly a nerve has been struck and I'm not making my point. Nevermind
You mean I made a clear argument without calling someone a "high functioning retard"?
:rolleyes:
So you can do be personally insulting but when someone simply offers a contrary opinion you have the gall to question the manner in which they do?
They have a word for that...it's called hypocrisy. Generally it destroys credibility.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 13:05
Well, at least my Hk trigger is decent.
Hey if it works for you, my opinion on the HK trigger is worth ****all.
You have some really good points about inconsistency Gutshot.....
Thank you, it was borne of experience. I tried a lot of different guns, whichever struck my fancy, I've owned Beretta, Sig, HK, Magnum Research, CZ, EAA...yaddayadda. I found that I was a thoroughly mediocre shooter (not that I'm all that, especially compared to the people I shoot with) until I settled down and focused on the Glock, since then I've transitioned to the M&P but only because I realized a gain in doing so but that gain did come at a cost both financial and in training.
I think what I was driving at mostly, and I did a ****ing piss poor job of it, was to be a good enough shooter that you can pick up any platform and do well.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 13:35
If you're saying that once one becomes a proficient shooter with a particular handgun, that he can pick up other guns and be reasonably proficient, albeit not as expert as with his primary, I can certainly agree with that.
Alaskapopo
02-23-12, 14:02
You are connecting right symptom to bad source. Actually in USP series bore axis has nothing to do with this. It is how fast guns goes back on target that matters (flips up or kicks straight - does not matter really, but some people just like one or other better). And here is a problem with HK USP series - HK "(too) clever" recoil system (it work very different from Glock gen4, Sprinco, Recoil Master or any other dual spring setup), that mitigates felt recoil but makes return on target slower and sight tracking harder. Actually hacking USP recoil system into single spring with solid bushing in place of second spring allows it to shoot much faster. It feels quite different gun after this mod. No wonder why HK decided to take step back and use single spring setup for P2000, P30 and HK45/C series.
I was shooting HK USP Expert .40SW in IPSC and got myself STI 2011 in .40SW. What I found is that STI had same bore axis and flipped up as much as HK or even more (until I ported slide on STI). But it was just getting back on target much faster.
A high bore axis magnifies muzzle flip because it gives recoil more leverage over the gun. There is no way around it a higher bore axis will slow your rate of fire. I also own a STI in 40sw (Edge) and it has a bore axis as low as a Glock and that is part of the reason 1911's are easy to shoot fast and well. The USP has a much higher bore axis and magnifies recoil in my experience, which is part of the reason I dumped them. As for seeing them in IDPA the reason Glock dominates is not cost but rather shootability. If it were just cost Highpoint would dominate and they don't.
Pat
How did a legitimate question about two good pistols with totally different magazine releases turn into such a long winded series of opinions on multiple gun platforms?
OP, I see your question more about the trigger guard release VS side release than HK VS Glock.
A little bit of info here:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99101
ps there are plenty who carry a 15+ round pistol with out a spare mag which makes reload speed moot.
Alaskapopo
02-23-12, 16:39
How did a legitimate question about two good pistols with totally different magazine releases turn into such a long winded series of opinions on multiple gun platforms?
OP, I see your question more about the trigger guard release VS side release than HK VS Glock.
A little bit of info here:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99101
ps there are plenty who carry a 15+ round pistol with out a spare mag which makes reload speed moot.
Carrying a spare mag is a must.
Pat
So you mean there are plenty of stupid people.
ps there are plenty who carry a 15+ round pistol with out a spare mag which makes reload speed moot.
Heck yea, if you couldn't get the job done with 15 rounds you likely should have run away before drawing!:D
I've owned two USPs. I've shot HK45s, P30s. Trigger sucks dude.
As compared to what? A 1911? gLoCk?
Respectfully disagree that the HK trigger "sucks". Name two pistols from different manufacturers that have the same trigger characteristics. There aren't many, if any....you adjust to the tool.
I think you probably meant to say it sucks for you.
Gutshot John
02-23-12, 17:45
As compared to what? A 1911? gLoCk?
Yes, among others.
I think you probably meant to say it sucks for you.
You probably meant to say it works for you. Or that you've adjusted to the tool. My take is that for the money, the trigger should make me orgasm.
I really tried to like the HK, I wanted to believe the hype, I spent enough money on them to prove it. They're big, clunky, over-engineered and about as user-unfriendly/unshootable as a handgun gets without being a brick. They are reliable and strong, I'll give you that, but there are plenty of guns that come close and are far more shootable.
That Glocks have won myriad national championships...as opposed to how many total for HK? should be what we call a clue.
YMMV.
Heck yea, if you couldn't get the job done with 15 rounds you likely should have run away before drawing!:D
In all seriousness about reloads...........................
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci
Carrying a spare mag is a must.
Pat
So you mean there are plenty of stupid people.
Yes, I do. But still, 15 in a semi with no extra mag beats a j frame with two 5 round speed strips. Plenty of j framers out there.
And if an extra mag is a must, then two is better without being difficult to carry.
My point was to get back on track about the two styles of mag releases but it appears we are not collectively capable of that.
You probably meant to say it works for you.
Actually, no I didn't.
A high bore axis magnifies muzzle flip because it gives recoil more leverage over the gun. There is no way around it a higher bore axis will slow your rate of fire.
Yes, there is. It goes both ways, since slide has to move both ways. The same extra leverage that flips muzzle up high(er) works in an opposite direction when slide returns to the battery and brings the muzzle down more forcefully. People tend to notice extra-flip at a peak of recoil and rightfully attribute this to extra-leverage, but then conveniently forget that same extra-leverage works in opposite direction when slide starts to move forward.
It is very difficult to prove because there is a ton of other variables that affect the rate of follow-up shots, but it can be done. Try shooting a high-bore gun in single action vs Glock (more or less same trigger pull and reset) and do it at small sized target like 3x5 (when you're actually forced to see sights well unlike large targets) and you see the split times no different.
What does change with high bore guns is an amplitude of muzzle flip, it is higher, and it does make sight tracking a bit more difficult.
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 00:01
Heck yea, if you couldn't get the job done with 15 rounds you likely should have run away before drawing!:D
As compared to what? A 1911? gLoCk?
Respectfully disagree that the HK trigger "sucks". Name two pistols from different manufacturers that have the same trigger characteristics. There aren't many, if any....you adjust to the tool.
I think you probably meant to say it sucks for you.
No I am more important than the tool. I will adjust the tool to fit me the best. HK triggers do suck. Even Sig and Beretta (similar systems) have better triggers. And why not include Glocks or 1911's. HK makes some good weapons but they need to pull their head out of their rear when it comes to triggers. Walther did with the PPQ and I much prefer it to the P30. Although I prefer a Glock to both.
The trigger is one of the most important things on a gun that directly impacts practical accuracy. A shitty trigger will mean shitty hits under stress. The less you have to fight against your own gun to make good hits the better.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 00:05
Yes, there is. It goes both ways, since slide has to move both ways. The same extra leverage that flips muzzle up high(er) works in an opposite direction when slide returns to the battery and brings the muzzle down more forcefully. People tend to notice extra-flip at a peak of recoil and rightfully attribute this to extra-leverage, but then conveniently forget that same extra-leverage works in opposite direction when slide starts to move forward.
It is very difficult to prove because there is a ton of other variables that affect the rate of follow-up shots, but it can be done. Try shooting a high-bore gun in single action vs Glock (more or less same trigger pull and reset) and do it at small sized target like 3x5 (when you're actually forced to see sights well unlike large targets) and you see the split times no different.
What does change with high bore guns is an amplitude of muzzle flip, it is higher, and it does make sight tracking a bit more difficult.
It does not work like that. The trade off is you get a more push back (muzzle level) type of recoil vs having a soft rolling but slow sight recovery recoil that slows shooting. I have done numerous shooting drills with and guns with higher bore axis are consistenly slower.
Pat
I have done numerous shooting drills with and guns with higher bore axis are consistenly slower.
Pat
So have I, and, for guns with similar triggers, I don't see much of a difference. My splits in SA mode with HK P30 aren't much different from a Glock.
This is a drill that's considered as one of more demanding speed drills ever, and it was developed by people who carry Sigs. Didn't slow them down.
http://www.triplenickel.org/the-triple-nickel-course-of-fire/
Same drill, different shooter, HK45...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xi28xuNcZI&feature=fvwrel
Same shooter, same 45 cal high-bore gun, Bill Drill under 2 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk&feature=related
Different shooter, different drill, different high-bore gun, sub-5 second FAST. Looks slow on video, but if you ever shot FAST drill, you'd know how fast it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN1Y9YbdH38&feature=related
As I said, if you bring the extra leverage argument on theoretical grounds, you have to accept that the same extra leverage is there when slide moves backwards and forward.
On practical grounds, it is perfectly fine if you yourself get slower times with high-bore guns, but it is not something that you should generalize across the board. I have enough personal timed data, I and another member here shoot pin matches with out P30s regularly and pretty much beat all production-level pistol shooters, and, aside from videos I posted, I've seen enough guys who don't give a damn about high bores in regards to rate of fire.
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 01:52
Yes, I do. But still, 15 in a semi with no extra mag beats a j frame with two 5 round speed strips. Plenty of j framers out there.
And if an extra mag is a must, then two is better without being difficult to carry.
My point was to get back on track about the two styles of mag releases but it appears we are not collectively capable of that.
The mag release issue is a preferance. I prefer the standard push button but you can get used to the HK style and be very fast with it. The deal with the extra mag is not just about capacity but also malfunctions. Magazines do fail.
Pat
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 01:56
So have I, and, for guns with similar triggers, I don't see much of a difference. My splits in SA mode with HK P30 aren't much different from a Glock.
This is a drill that's considered as one of more demanding speed drills ever, and it was developed by people who carry Sigs. Didn't slow them down.
http://www.triplenickel.org/the-triple-nickel-course-of-fire/
Same drill, different shooter, HK45...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xi28xuNcZI&feature=fvwrel
Same shooter, same 45 cal high-bore gun, Bill Drill under 2 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk&feature=related
Different shooter, different drill, different high-bore gun, sub-5 second FAST. Looks slow on video, but if you ever shot FAST drill, you'd know how fast it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN1Y9YbdH38&feature=related
As I said, if you bring the extra leverage argument on theoretical grounds, you have to accept that the same extra leverage is there when slide moves backwards and forward.
On practical grounds, it is perfectly fine if you yourself get slower times with high-bore guns, but it is not something that you should generalize across the board. I have enough personal timed data, I and another member here shoot pin matches with out P30s regularly and pretty much beat all production-level pistol shooters, and, aside from videos I posted, I've seen enough guys who don't give a damn about high bores in regards to rate of fire.
The slide moves backwards and fowards at the same rate regardless of how high the bore axis is. That is not what increases or decreases muzzle rise. I also shoot competatively and the guys shooting Sigs, HK's (rare) and XD's generally don't do as well as the guys shooting Glocks and 1911's. Its mostly the shooter not the gun but there is a trend and you see it even more as you move up to the bigger more serious matches. As for not seeing much of a difference in your splits? Define that. Its not going to be earth shattering but every little bit helps and matches are won sometimes with times less than a second in difference. In real life breaking the shot just before the bad guy can also save your neck.
Pat
Gonna try to heighten up my civility after my grumpy posts from yesterday :D
Since this has gotten into a bit of a HK v Glock debate, thought I'd share some thoughts after a week with an HK, here's my thoughts on the P30 vs Glock 19. (week to date: 620 rounds through the P30). Please note, this was almost an even trade so price is not part of the equation for me.
What I like about the HK:
-I this shoot this gun better with little effort
-The grip feels better and is more natural
-From a draw and high ready, I'm on target quicker
-From a draw, I have a better (read:proper) grip
-I have not had to worry about ammo selection and changing extractors to ensure function
-I don't have to read problem/reports threads and self diagnose issues.
-I have not had to buy/install extended slide levers and magazine releases
-I am much faster with the HK/Walther-style magazine release and am able to reload with changing grip
-Ambi out of the box
-I haven't had to shake spent magazines free, they've fallen free every time for me
-I am back on target quicker and more accurately
-Factory sights that don't suck (Ameriglo coming out with more HK sights this fall FYI)
-Call me crazy, I like the trigger
-I don't have an aneurysm while trying to disassemble the magazines
*I don't have a timer so I apologize for not being able to quantify 'quicker', there's a noticeable difference in terms of speed and ease of acquisition/transition
What I miss about the Glock:
-Readily available...everything (magazines, parts, sights)
-No necessity to change/be wary of grip (support hand especially)
-The reset (although not as much as a factor as I reset during follow through and don't 'feel' for it)
-Ease of maintenance/disassembly (especially evident when disassembling the slide)
-Lower bore axis
Double taps from draw on left, slow fire on right (~1 shot per second) both from 15 yards. 100 rnds/target.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/HK/f90eba18.jpg
End of the day, I agree with both camps. After 350 rounds last night with the HK, I picked up a Glock 19 and was all over the place. The shooter can adjust to varying platforms but it would take some work for me and detract form muscle memory I developed during time spent with the other gun.
I also own a STI in 40sw (Edge) and it has a bore axis as low as a Glock and that is part of the reason 1911's are easy to shoot fast and well. The USP has a much higher bore axis and magnifies recoil in my experience, which is part of the reason I dumped them.
We must probably measure bore axis differently. For me it is distance between axis of bore and axis of forearm measured at wrist. Wrist is pivot point for pistol - there all force goes.
STI or for this matter any 1911-clone does not have bore axis as low as striker fired Glock. Anyway, I'm in camp that thinks bore axis problem is over-exaggerated. For me sight tracking and slide speed are most important - if pistol tracks back on target and makes it fast, it is not important how high bore axis is. Problem with USP (full size) is not high bore axis, but very slow slide (also the slower slide, the more flip, because force works on wrist longer*). USPc, P-series and HK45 series shoot much faster.
* - when I used strong (14+lb) recoil springs, that slows down slide on recoil, my STI was flipping up and down like crazy. With 9-11lb spring it was barely moving up and down.
Bottom line - it is always down to personal preference at the end of the day.
Gutshot John
02-24-12, 09:53
Actually the pivot point for the pistol is the meat between the strong hand thumb and index finger that rests where the backstrap meets the slide.
Alaska is right, flip and recoil are different things Recoil is lateral force going straight back into the wrist, flip is vertical force caused by the skide moving back. Counter intuitively the more muzzle flip, the less perceived recoil as the slide movement is dampening that force. The higher the bore axis and the beefier the slide the more flip will be a factor. I do disagree about the 1911 v. Glock bore axis. Glock has the lowest bore axis, the least muzzle flip but potentially some of the strongest recoil.
Sight tracking is important, the more flip you have the harder it is to track the sights no matter how quickly it comes back on target.
Actually the pivot point for the pistol is the meat between the strong hand thumb and index finger that rests where the backstrap meets the slide.
Alaska is right.
Then I'm anatomical freak or have too strong grip with too weak wrist :cray:
Gutshot John
02-24-12, 10:01
Wrist strength at the rear of the gun has nothing to do with muzzle control. The muzzle is controlled best at the front strap.
Its simple physics. The pivot point will occur where the force is applied. This is why shooting instructors ALL say to get as high a grip on the gun as you can. The higher the grip the shorter the lever. The shorter the lever the less leverage/force is applied per Archimedes.
You can get a much higher grip on a Glock/striker gun than you can on the HK. Thats where bore axis comes in.
Wrist strength at the rear of the gun has nothing to do with muzzle control. The muzzle is controlled best at the front strap.
Its simple physics. The pivot point will occur where the force is applied. This is why shooting instructors ALL say to get as high a grip on the gun as you can. The higher the grip the shorter the lever. The shorter the lever the less leverage/force is applied per Archimedes.
You can get a much higher grip on a Glock/striker gun than you can on the HK. Thats where bore axis comes in.
All I know, I studies physics, they also teach us on sports medicine and how anatomy works for shooting on shooting instructor courses for govt instructor/trainer licence.
This leverage extends force on flex point. Grip transfers it hand and hand on wrist. Flex occurs on first weakest point. If someone grips so light, then gun can flip inside his hand. But with strong, aggressive grip, flex is on wrist.
Take a look at Ransom Rest. It was designed to emulate dynamic of handgun gripped in hand. See where pivot point for Ransom Rest is located. It of course is located further down that wrist is, because resistance of spring is higher than that of wrist, but gun does not pivot on top of the grip.
See for yourself where flex occurs - is it at wrist or gun pivots inside strong hand:
http://youtu.be/rzPzEmdWVhA
http://youtu.be/MxyDt3nDf2A
As to bore axis - some huge differences can be strong factor. This easily can be seen on novice shooters that sometimes grip gun good 1" below top of the grip. Also can be easily seen shooting revolver with "proper grip" (low) and grabbing it in way that top of grip seats inside hand. But so small differences that are between different, properly designed, pistols play smaller part than slide mass (moving parts mass), slide speed and total mass of gun. Still, slide mass and speed works both ways - on recoil and on feed. Same applies to bore axis leverage - works both on recoil and on feed.
Gutshot John
02-24-12, 10:53
You're making the assumption that just because your wrist moves, that this is where the pivot force is being applied. It certainly does not. The rearward force is moving backwards in line with the bore, OVER your hand, not straight back into your wrist.
The ransom rest is the same principle.
If what you said were correct it wouldn't matter how high of a grip you would need on a gun. There isn't a single credible firearms instructor I know of that says you don't have to get a high grip on a gun and I've NEVER seen anyone shoot well with a grip 1" low on a gun. The may shoot, but being able to do something and being able to do something well are two different things.
Again, archimedes, the longer the lever, the more force is applied.
When I watch your videos they seem to be proving my point. The slide moves back, the wrist doesn't even start to move until the slide is fully reward and stopped by the meat of your hand, when this happens the front strap of the gun moves forward, this is what flexes the wrist. So muzzle flip, like I said is better controlled on the front strap...NOT the backstrap.
All I know, I studies physics, they also teach us on sports medicine and how anatomy works for shooting on shooting instructor courses for govt instructor/trainer licence.
This leverage extends force on flex point. Grip transfers it hand and hand on wrist. Flex occurs on first weakest point. If someone grips so light, then gun can flip inside his hand. But with strong, aggressive grip, flex is on wrist.
Take a look at Ransom Rest. It was designed to emulate dynamic of handgun gripped in hand. See where pivot point for Ransom Rest is located. It of course is located further down that wrist is, because resistance of spring is higher than that of wrist, but gun does not pivot on top of the grip.
See for yourself where flex occurs - is it at wrist or gun pivots inside strong hand:
http://youtu.be/rzPzEmdWVhA
http://youtu.be/MxyDt3nDf2A
As to bore axis - some huge differences can be strong factor. This easily can be seen on novice shooters that sometimes grip gun good 1" below top of the grip. Also can be easily seen shooting revolver with "proper grip" (low) and grabbing it in way that top of grip seats inside hand. But so small differences that are between different, properly designed, pistols play smaller part than slide mass (moving parts mass), slide speed and total mass of gun. Still, slide mass and speed works both ways - on recoil and on feed. Same applies to bore axis leverage - works both on recoil and on feed.
Actually the pivot point for the pistol is the meat between the strong hand thumb and index finger that rests where the backstrap meets the slide.
Alaska is right, flip and recoil are different things Recoil is lateral force going straight back into the wrist, flip is vertical force caused by the skide moving back. Counter intuitively the more muzzle flip, the less perceived recoil as the slide movement is dampening that force. The higher the bore axis and the beefier the slide the more flip will be a factor. I
Sight tracking is important, the more flip you have the harder it is to track the sights no matter how quickly it comes back on target.
I agree with just about all you said here. My point is that the speed of follow-up shots is dependent on how fast sights come back on target, not how high the muzzle flips. It is somehow automatically assumed that if the flip is lower, the sights are back on sooner; this has not been my experience. I agree on harder to track part, I mentioned it above.
Here is one guys review of the Walther PPQ . Check out the video at the 7:00 minute mark where he is shooting it fast. He doesn't seem to have any problem with recoil or muzzle flip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_QhiTa-7OA . IMHO the proper grip or hold matters the most. Also how the gun is sprung and bullet weight are also factors. That being said a lower bore axis will probably give some shooters a (slight) edge in speed (if) they can take advantage of it.
What a stupid pissing contest this is. I own HKs and 1911s and know they have pros and cons and deal. I highly respect Glocks and know their pros/cons too. I don't believe either is better than the other.
How come Glocks guys that spot HK shooters that stand by and love their platform, call them fanboys? You so staunchly defend the Glocks and think other platforms suck because they aren't Glocks. Aren't you just a Glock fanboy?
Or did we just make individual decisions to stick with a different gun?
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 15:33
What a stupid pissing contest this is. I own HKs and 1911s and know they have pros and cons and deal. I highly respect Glocks and know their pros/cons too. I don't believe either is better than the other.
How come Glocks guys that spot HK shooters that stand by and love their platform, call them fanboys? You so staunchly defend the Glocks and think other platforms suck because they aren't Glocks. Aren't you just a Glock fanboy?
Or did we just make individual decisions to stick with a different gun?
Oh trust me HK has its fan boy legions. My favorate HK pistol is the P7M13.
Pat
Gutshot John
02-24-12, 15:37
Funny thing is...I'm not a "glock guy". My gun of choice is an M&P.
It would seem that the mods have been busy, editing and deleting posts.
Usually they tell you when they do so...interesting.
Alaskapopo
02-24-12, 15:41
Funny thing is...I'm not a "glock guy". My gun of choice is an M&P.
It would seem that the mods have been busy, editing and deleting posts.
Usually they tell you when they do so...interesting.
They are a good pistol. Lots of my friends are shooting M&P pros with trigger jobs and Storm Lake barrels and doing well.
Pat
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