mike240
01-09-12, 23:08
After reading a few recent threads I thought I would start my own. As you can see by my post count and earliest post-date I have been around here for quite a while. Mainly as a lurker and before M4C existed and most of you “old timers” were at TOS. And I have learned much here from many of you. This post is long and should bring my post count up a few hundred. I read things and usually just bite my tongue, forget about it and figure “what the hell”, it doesn’t effect me. After a lot of reading here and on other forums I just thought I would share some personal history and experiences.
I got my first 1911 (a new Colt series 70 Gov’t Model) when I was 16. Nearly 33 years later I have had quite a few pass through my hands (owned, loaned, provided to troubleshoot etc) of nearly all makes including semi customs (NHs, Wilsons, Baers) and one man shop customs. I currently own 10 (3 Colts, 3 Kimbers, 3 SAs and a SW E series I have not shot yet. All are 5 inch guns but one Kimber TLE Pro and a SA EMP in .40SW.
I have shot and carried them for fun, competition and on and off for work over the years. When authorized, I always carried the 1911 over anything else; though have been forced to carry Sig 220s, SW 3rd Gens, Glocks and even revos in the the beginning! I have been trained and trained others on all those systems (and others) as well as trained to work on most of them. I am always intrigued at all the 1911 talk and especially the Kimbers.
I have always run with a group of 1911 fans and have shot many custom 1911s owned by TGO, Burkett and others. Around here there are many good pistolsmiths and top competitors that use Rio Salado as home base and a test range.
About 4 years ago I went back to shooting 1911s exclusively since I prefer them and despite at the time still being required to carry a Glock. After leaving SWAT and going to K9, I spent more time on duty with a lead in my hand than a gun (relying on the cover of others)or my SBR covering other dog handlers on searches. My last two years of carrying the Glock, the only time I fired it was in mandatory in service training and qualifications.
Approximately 2.5 years ago our boss approved the 1911 for duty carry!
At the start of this period I put 14000 rounds (12-14 months) through ONE 1911 without ever cleaning it. We met and shot every Friday and usually a couple Mondays a month too. Every couple outings I would usually put a drop of oil at the front of the barrel hood; lock the slide back-lay a drop on each slide rail groove and a drop on the end of the barrel for the bushing. I never changed or broke a part, nor did I ever change ANY spring. I used Wilson 47DE 8 rounders and never cleaned them either. I shot all my reloads (which is how I know how much I went through due to the receipts). I did not have any issues that were not purely attributed to damaged rims on a case early on (a lesson learned I will mention later).
The pistol? A 2003 model Kimber Team Match II .45 with the “dreaded” external extractor (the Team Match guns had the one unique cut, tool steel EE that the other models did not get) and Swartz safety. And that gun had been well shot in the years prior to this. If the receiver splits in half tomorrow, I have gotten my money’s worth from this gun and would have no regrets, though I would miss it. I still have problems marrying up to that new SA Trophy Match.
Why did I do it? There was talk of the officer’s union trying to get the Chief to approve 1911s and the command staff was divided based on all the myths and rumors about the pistol. The same way most old Chiefs felt about the AR system in the 80s and most of the 90s (our chief at the time was a ‘nam vet that still held on to his old and mis-guided opinions of the M16).
So, I wanted to see what would happen. Most cops will not shoot that much in 10 years. Since my “Friday” group of shooters were mostly instructors from my agency I thought it would be good for them to see it too. I finally cleaned it and the mags the night before the state IDPA match and worried it wouldn’t work clean!
I cannot give round counts on all my guns. I would try to keep records but soon forget and cared for shooting more than cleaning and secretarial work. Even in snipers, the round count log soon meant nothing. When I supervised them, a couple times I would hear one say “Time for rebarrel, I am at 8ooo rounds!” though the gun still shot ¾ moa. Everything can and will break and identical items will break at random intervals; so …screw it. But I can tell you that I shoot my guns and do not get caught up in all the replacement interval hype. The last time you know for sure your gun worked was the last round you fired. That is why you carry a back up or two and another in the unit…a backup rifle too for that matter!
When FBI HRT got their Baers and mostly SA custom shop guns; one of their week long transition schools (taught by Jerry Barnhart-I think 1997 but would have to find the certificate) was in sunny AZ during the winter. I was invited to fill a slot as well. 2500-3500 rounds were fired in that course, all of it the FBIs duty load, Rem Golden Sabre (I think…). I brought ammo but they gave me theirs, so I shot it. There were some local FBI SWAT guys I knew there too that were running lower grade SA (since the local teams did not get the “great” guns. I got tired of the class coming to a halt to fix and clean the “great” guns that quit functioning (or did they? Shooter induced and blamed on too tight a tolerances? More later on that)….What did I use in that class? My original Colt Series 70. No issues though I did clean it every night, but that was after nearly a 1000 rounds per day!
Of all my 1911s this Colt Series 70 is the ONLY one that has ever had any internal work to it. In 1986, our then rangemaster throated and polished it because it had issues with our department ammo. But it seems all the older Colts needed this. Later (thanks to AzDoug ,M4C member in 1991) the front strap was undercut and checkered, sights changed, thumb and grip safety changed and a SA mag guide added and blended. Then all the lower parts and receiver were nickel finished.
My primary uniformed, duty gun is a Kimber Warrior (uh oh, boo hiss) since the 1911 got approved. “Oh no, how could you trust your life to that? Haven’t you read the internet and Yam’s article?” Yes, I have. I took from it what there was to learn from his experience. That is not a personal attack on Mr. Yam, just a differing opinion based on experiences (not as large a sampling, I know), as you will read.
But my Warrior has been dead nut reliable with no parts breakages. Other than the Smith Alexander mag guide/mainspring housing, some grip tape on the front strap, an SF X300 and a pair of stippled Ergo grips; it is in original condition…untouched and un-tuned. It was my first railed 1911 and bought in very nearly new condition for 800 bucks from an accountant type who bought one to try but preferred his Glock. For nearly three years it has been the “Friday” and in-service training pistol unless I knew there was no enough time to clean it before Friday night’s shift (yes, I do however clean my duty guns, per policy).
In all these years, and all these 1911s I have owned , I have had ONE part break. That was an extractor claw broke off of my “custom, hand-built, one man shop” 2011 in .40SW. I suspect it was poorly done as it broke at about the 400 round mark. I fitted an Ed Brown model myself and sold it a few hundred rounds later….limited class was not for me anyway. Nor was loading long for it and resetting dies for the SA .40 single stack I have.
I have been present to see an extended ejector on a 3 inch Kimber CDP turned into a GI length ejector after 1000 or so rounds. The owner did not know it till he cleaned it. He called Kimber, they sent a new one with pin and I replaced it-no fitting needed.
Yeah, I know it was MIM. Others use MIM. And Wilson has and publicly had no issue with it. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/125106-what-wilson-combat-thinks-mim-parts-1911s.html.
I am no metallurgist and am sure there is shit MIM and good MIM as well as shit steel and good steel. Whatever, this is really not a discussion on the MIM vs. non MIM part debate (that will still be going on a hundred years from now like 9mm vs. .45). The fact is those short guns are violent and a shooter with good technique continued to run the gun flawlessly without the extended arm on the ejector. And did you notice the Wilson polymer short guide rod talk in the listed link? I never heard of that.
Funny how proper technique does away with a lot of the gadgets and mods that makers and users put on guns!
While we’re on parts breakage and handgun issues…
We have full time range/firearms instructors/armorers staff (a sergeant and two, sometimes three officers) plus several adjuncts who have full time assignments elsewhere in the department. I had that job for about four years in addition to SWAT member/trainer/coordinator when there were only two us assigned there.
Every year, every gun is torn down and inspected, detailed cleaned, repaired etc. We issue G17s, G19s and G26s. Also approved nearly all other Glocks in .40 and .45 and had some Sig 226s and 220s and SW 5906s “grandfathered” in. Plus a list of others approved for backup and off duty carry, rifles, shotguns and subguns. If carried in a “law enforcement capacity” it was torn down, department owned or not.
When talking about 1911s many praise just about anything over the 1911. I have been through all (prior to Gen 4s) the Glock recalls (though they never used that word, they preferred upgrades), slide replacements, extractor and EDP bearing upgrades, recoil spring guide rod changes, mag and mag follower issues and cracked frame and slide recalls.
I had a reliable 220 crap on me after a DPS rebuild when a brand new trigger return spring broke with less than a 100 rounds on it during a USMC JTF-6 CQB school. Several of the 220s (made in Germany) locking blocks broke in the 80 and 90s, mine included.
I have seen several and experienced one SW extractor eject itself from the slide as well as the right side decocking lever from 5906s. I have seen and had more than one Glock extractor chip off so bad in training that it would not extract at all. Not to mention the Glock slide stop levers whose spring broke or had to be trimmed to prevent rounds in the mag causing the loaded pistol to go into slide lock. According to TGO who runs some classes for Delta, they removed all the slide stop levers from their G22s for these very reasons. I do not know if the “D” boys are still running or experimenting with Glocks.
We got a batch of consecutively numbered (I think 60) G17s in the late 90s with factory Trijicon NSs. To zero any of them the rear sight was drifted so far to the right, it extended over the slide, snagging everything and cutting hands doing clearance drills. Glock blamed Trijicon and vice versa. After a lot of haggling, measuring and bitching Glock took them back. The sights were right….slides were bad…and not the rear sight dovetail either.
Everyone has a bad one, or even a bad batch once in a great while. We’ve had a couple Colt ARs with barrels so loose they couldn’t zero (loose barrel nuts) and a couple 6920s that were short chambered. Maybe a lazy employee, maybe a bad batch of parts from outside contractor, maybe a bad gauge or tool no one caught in time. No hard feelings on what is usually a proven product….just make it right in a timely fashion with no excuses. Gun makers could learn from the auto industry in this area.
We thought Glock’s customer service was great for years till a certain regional rep was “released”. Then we found out they had a hard time doing right to even larger customers. Must have been that whole “Perfection” thing and all. I haven’t had to deal with big reps and contracts personally for about 10 years; so maybe things are better.
And don’t get me started on HK of old. We’d call HK in VA for MP5 parts when nearly everyone was still using subguns for entry; and couldn’t get a part at all! Maybe that hasn’t changed since my old units 416s are shit and they are in the process of trading them off.
Do not get me wrong, Glock pistols have served me, my agency and many others well. Very well. But they are far from perfect and I have seen more go wrong or need replaced on them than any 1911 I have owned or been around.
So with “all” this 1911 experience that I have (others in my agency talking, not me…it is easy being a big fish in a little pond of 350) I was tasked with writing responses, policies and training courses during the approval process and giving them to a neighboring agency who just got 1911s approved too (the only two municipal agencies in the Phx area). I teach the transition class and brought AzDoug to the instructor “Train the Trainer” class to assist.
Over the last 25 years or so, I have learned more about guns, shooting guns and repairing guns from AzDoug than I could ever remember! He can build from scratch.
Why have Glocks been so successful in LE? They are very forgiving (no Gen 4 experience). Agencies loved them, less remedial training. They are “under sprung” for their caliber doing away with most all the shooter induced malfunctions we all saw in the Sigs, SW etc. They are easy to shoot. And many a good shooter has gotten lazy after shooting them for years. Example (one of many): Big, very big, muscles on muscles retired Alq PD SWAT guy comes to our PD. Carried 1911s for years. Glock 21 for three years with us. Buys new Kimber Tactical Entry HD and has stoppage after stoppage. I grab the gun and run a few courses (I am like half this guys size and strength) – no issues, at all. His mouth hangs open as I tell him to man up and and hold the gun right. No more problems. He later laughs and agrees the Glock is forgiving, very forgiving. Later goes through the transition course with no problem. Some try the transition course and opt to stay with the Glock. Good for them. I respect a wise decision like that. To run the 1911 well you had better marry it and for that first year after years of Glock, I tell them shoot, shoot, shoot-it is a different animal!
I have found this many times with 1911s. People have issues send them back to the factory. Factory says its fine just shoot it. They do it, still does not work (for them). A 1911 guy shoots it, it runs fine. I have bought a few this way. The owner says something like well it likes you, so here. Some guns are easy and forgiving and others require consistent good technique. If you shoot a lot in one session and start getting stoppages, don’t be too eager to blame the gun.
I have seen folks after a long day of training start getting stoppages with M4s. They get tired and fail to provide a solid platform for it to operate on.
These inconsistent testing comparisons get annoying, too many variables. Do them all from Ransom Rests, eliminate the human error. People brain fart, limp wrist a shot or two, whatever….guns are machines if they’re broke, they’re broke. They just don’t break every 5th, 10th or 1000th time without there being another outside contributing factor.
My theory on why Kimber says a 500 round break in period? They know that most gun owners are not real shooters. They hope they learn how to shoot the 1911 during this 500 rounds period and all those shooter induced stoppages go away. I never had to break in my Kimbers. Many here have said no gun should require break. Then came Gen 4 Glocks ….a break in was suddenly needed and deemed okay in Glock’s case. Or was it just that now that Glock started to put a proper spring under the barrel, some people had to learn how to shoot again?
Why put extended ejectors on everything when they are not needed? Why are many ARs “overgassed”? Why do makers say replace the recoil spring every 2000 rounds when it is really not needed? Why, why, why?
Because they do not want all those guns back in the warranty shop from people who have not learned to shoot properly or who feed the gun shit ammo. Do you really think that a pistol that send spent brass into the shooter's face is a gun problem? Rarely at best. What do you think Elmore and others are doing in their “reliability packages” to ARs? Simply put, “over-gassing” them. When I sole sourced 10 Commandos and a couple “real” M4s from him many years ago I knew that we would not always shoot mil spec ammo and our duty round did not have that kind of pressure. I took him cases of all three (practice, duty and shoot house) types we used and said to just make sure they all work or I will never hear the end of it (since some of the HK fanboys wanted that G36 abortion instead of Colts). At the end of the day, for the feared SHTF, Zombie invasion, etc gun everyone talks of having; I want it over gassed TDP be damned. I do not know what ammo may be found next! I want it to run, period.
Side note, DPMS donated a new AP4, I think, M4ish clone as a prize for the state police games a few years back. We made it a stage gun that everyone had to use on that stage. Zero’ed it the day before, cleaned and lubed it. Over the course of the day it ate 1400 rounds of American Eagle red box without a hiccup, or anymore cleaning and lube. Many shooters were concerned if they would get a reshoot if it failed. I ROed the stage and was concerned myself….a fluke you say. I don’t know, maybe.
We never seem to hear of head to head, apples to apples testing. Do all you can to eliminate all error to blame only the gun. Gauge each round, every round. I have found factory duty ammo with all types of errors. High primers, deformed cases, little or no crimp, damaged or burred rims, inconsistent powder charges and even upside down bullets. We would random sample from every lot. Shoot it for accuracy from a Ransom, gauge it, pull the bullets and weigh charges. It passed or the whole lot when back.
I mentioned the bad rims on reloads earlier when surely someone was thinking I was making an excuse; especially after learning the gun was a Kimber with EE. Well with 6-8 guys all shooting .45 from 1911s, a Glock and a XD; and cleaning up at the end you have no idea the source of the brass. I learned when mixing brass that my Dillon does not fully resize like a LEE die in a single stage press. Nor does the shell plate hold them to the same tolerance. I started using the LEE shell holder as a rim gauge. Amazing how many cases would go through the Dillon but not slide into and fully rotate 360 in the LEE shellholder. That makes me check and either discard the case or use a small swiss file and clean the extractor mark/burr out. With all these production guns dropping brass they all leave different and sometimes extreme abuse marks on the case head and rim. This can be a show stopper in a 1911 depending on extractor fit, requiring a knife to pry the case from under the claw. After I started rotating every round in the LEE shell holder…no problems, ever.
They talk of Kimbers needing chamber reaming. Not any of mine. If the case seats fully in the gauge under its own weight and drops freely from gravity it will do it in my Kimber barrels. If the cartridge fails, I resize it loaded in the single stage press with LEE die and try again. Sometimes the bullet is lifted requiring re-seating and crimping due to the varying tolerances in the 2000 projecticle boxes of Zero 230 gr FMJ that I use. But, this saves 95 percent of what years ago I would reject and pull. If it fails after that, it goes into a box to be shot from a Glock or XD someday. Cartridges that would not gauge will fully seat and rattle in my SAs and Colts.
A little about the Kimber EE in my experience. We all know how sensitive 1911 guys are about Browning’s original design. There were three different EEs that Kimber used that I have seen. Like Glock, they changed some angles and cuts. The Team Match guns are the only ones I am aware of that had a tool steel part. Not that I think it was the tool steel that made it work since many extractors in many guns are MIM or cast and work fine. But the Team Match had different cuts than any of the others and I have not ever found or read of a Team Match owner who complained.
The Kimber EE is very very Glockish when you pull it all out, though it does not use the solid rod of the Glock EDP. The extractor cannot “clock” regardless of the firing pin stop’s fit. It is forgiving in regards to clearance drills without damaging the claw or screwing with the tension of the fixed extractor. Frankly, I really like it. It is a drop in part. I have never even changed the spring. Did I say how many rounds this guns has fired?
It is hard for me to say with certainty what all the issues where with the Kimber EE. It was a costly venture for them to research, test and design it and retool to produce it. I have shot other Kimber models with the EE and never had an issue. I have had people give me their guns to trouble shoot with EEs that have always been Glock shooters and complained of stoppages on their first 1911. I would run the gun with their ammo and mine and never had issue. I would not shy from buying one. Kimber lost a ton on that one-design and then retroing many guns with new slides. I would have loved to have been given the opportunity to shoot them all before they put new slides on them! I have spoken to a few people back at Kimber about this and after telling them how I like the design and have had no issues, they say how costly and unnecessary most of the rebuilds were.
How is it that a fixed extractor on a 1911 is supposed to be replaced every 4000 rds. or whatever I keep reading? It only holds an empty case unsupported at about 4 lbs of pressure for a very short time. The rim slides up the breech face and under the claw. I don’t see it. Have never replaced or re tensioned any of mine. If they are quality and fit right I just do not get it. Unless you are doing hundreds of double feed clearing drills.
I am saying BUY KIMBER or nothing? No, I don’t give a shit what anyone buys. But despite all the hate talk everywhere you look, they are still in business and constantly expanding their line. They must be making money and since I have not heard of any tax payer funder Obama bail out for Kimber; the cop in me tells me that somewhere along the line there is some bias. There are great things about Colt, SAs and Kimbers. There are things I hate about each of them too. Like what?
Kimber hates:
• Kimber fails to see the need to hard anodize alloy frames anymore
• Kimber’s matte bluing sucks
• Kimber puts their sucky blue finish control parts on all models with “black” controls. Even those with KimPro finish. These wear fast and look like shit.
• Kimber fails to put ramped barrels in alloy framed .45s and again, no anodized frame
• Kimber uses anemic 30 lpi checking on all but the Gold Combat and these are only 24 lpi
• Kimber uses Swartz safety. Not a deal breaker for me but many are out of time which poses an issue those that do not grip the gun. Hell, one of mine is out of time and never knew it till recent discussion prompted testing. They will fix the timing issue, but it should have not left that way. They test fire but evidently do not test the timing of the device
• “Custom Shop” marked models is misleading. Its like Chevy of old. Custom, Cheyenne, Silverado. Same truck different appearance features.
• Front sights not pinned
• Customer service is reportedly hit or miss…I never needed it
• One year warranty. Could learn from SA on this
Kimber likes:
• Even base gun (Custom) is de-horned
• Interior is pretty much void of tool marks. Looks good and cleans easy
• Fit is very good, extractor is flush fit to slide. SA could learn from this!
• Many models with varying “options packages”. Like buying a car but do not ask for one thing less or one thing more. The whole package or nothing. No true custom shop
• Accuracy on most models about the same (cannot speak for Gold Combat or Super Match). But the base guns I have shot were better than other production base 1911s
• True “Colt” front strap radius. I know SA went back to it. SW does not
• My preferred high grip method under the trigger guard. I can tell a SA from Kimber blindfolded
• Prefer the ambi safety ala Kings style over Swensen
• Good feeling/breaking triggers…that last (at least mine)
Springfield hates:
• All but TRPs are like shooting a box of razor blades. They are sharp, everywhere. I can’t touch my Trophy Match or others without bleeding on it. Though I love that sharp SA 20 pli checkering! Even the rear slide serrations slice off the inside of my firing hand thumb while shooting. Tearing off that “slide callus” that takes so long to build!
• Frontstrap to triggerguard radius.
• Cannot seem to flush fit an extractor at all till you break the 1400 dollar mark. Even my pretty little EMPs extractor sticks out a good 35 thou
• Shitty triggers-could learn from Kimber on this for production gun, SWs is good too
• Two piece guide rods…two piece? Seen these loosen up and come on out. I am not a throw a good one piece away and make it all GI but come on, two piece?
• ILS
• Interior full of rough tool markings
• The Brazil v. USA thing
• And what is this from the custom shop? You mean this is not done prior to shipping?
o 1911-A1 Reliability Package: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $150.00
o 1. Deburr pistol internally
o 2. Tune extractor and ejector
o 3. Recut barrel throat and polish feed ramp
o 4. Check headspace
o 5. Polish breechface
o 6. Inspect and test fire for function
Springfield likes:
• Lifetime warranty
• Full custom shop
• Hard to beat customer service
• Pinned front sights
• TGO gave me hat!
I have only handled the newer re tool Colts and not even fired my E series so I did not get into them. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. After de horning, undercutting the trigger guard, some checkering and trigger work; I really like my SA .40 and the EMP has been flawless for about 5-600 rounds. I just think we all need to step back once in a while and give things fair shake. That gun you saw shitting in the hands of the guy next to you on the range may not have been the guns fault. Despite how great he ran the Glock he pulled from his bag after his 1911 frustration got the best of him.
And I am especially cautious about advice from those that make and or sell parts and services who tell me I have to throw it all away except the slide and frame and start over. Hell, look back and see how the M&P was great as it was but now we have to replace this and that. The Glock was perfect but now we find the geometry is messed up and we need to replace this and that. I am sure it can all be made smoother better faster. And TGO last year’s Dave William’s built .40 singlestack was like art and smooth as two ice cubes rubbing together in a AZ summer. But I didn’t shoot it any better!
What we spend is relative to what we make. If you can afford a “X” then buy it. I could care less. But I have beaten a lot of “X” guns with an old Kimber production gun.
I reserve the right to add to this, correct my thoughts and experiences; grammar and spelling based on those who question my education or jog my memory through questions and/or “flaming” me. I assure you my corrections and additions will be based on my best recollection after getting old and being knocked out too many times and not on lies to attempt to defend my position! :D
Am I banned yet?:confused:
I got my first 1911 (a new Colt series 70 Gov’t Model) when I was 16. Nearly 33 years later I have had quite a few pass through my hands (owned, loaned, provided to troubleshoot etc) of nearly all makes including semi customs (NHs, Wilsons, Baers) and one man shop customs. I currently own 10 (3 Colts, 3 Kimbers, 3 SAs and a SW E series I have not shot yet. All are 5 inch guns but one Kimber TLE Pro and a SA EMP in .40SW.
I have shot and carried them for fun, competition and on and off for work over the years. When authorized, I always carried the 1911 over anything else; though have been forced to carry Sig 220s, SW 3rd Gens, Glocks and even revos in the the beginning! I have been trained and trained others on all those systems (and others) as well as trained to work on most of them. I am always intrigued at all the 1911 talk and especially the Kimbers.
I have always run with a group of 1911 fans and have shot many custom 1911s owned by TGO, Burkett and others. Around here there are many good pistolsmiths and top competitors that use Rio Salado as home base and a test range.
About 4 years ago I went back to shooting 1911s exclusively since I prefer them and despite at the time still being required to carry a Glock. After leaving SWAT and going to K9, I spent more time on duty with a lead in my hand than a gun (relying on the cover of others)or my SBR covering other dog handlers on searches. My last two years of carrying the Glock, the only time I fired it was in mandatory in service training and qualifications.
Approximately 2.5 years ago our boss approved the 1911 for duty carry!
At the start of this period I put 14000 rounds (12-14 months) through ONE 1911 without ever cleaning it. We met and shot every Friday and usually a couple Mondays a month too. Every couple outings I would usually put a drop of oil at the front of the barrel hood; lock the slide back-lay a drop on each slide rail groove and a drop on the end of the barrel for the bushing. I never changed or broke a part, nor did I ever change ANY spring. I used Wilson 47DE 8 rounders and never cleaned them either. I shot all my reloads (which is how I know how much I went through due to the receipts). I did not have any issues that were not purely attributed to damaged rims on a case early on (a lesson learned I will mention later).
The pistol? A 2003 model Kimber Team Match II .45 with the “dreaded” external extractor (the Team Match guns had the one unique cut, tool steel EE that the other models did not get) and Swartz safety. And that gun had been well shot in the years prior to this. If the receiver splits in half tomorrow, I have gotten my money’s worth from this gun and would have no regrets, though I would miss it. I still have problems marrying up to that new SA Trophy Match.
Why did I do it? There was talk of the officer’s union trying to get the Chief to approve 1911s and the command staff was divided based on all the myths and rumors about the pistol. The same way most old Chiefs felt about the AR system in the 80s and most of the 90s (our chief at the time was a ‘nam vet that still held on to his old and mis-guided opinions of the M16).
So, I wanted to see what would happen. Most cops will not shoot that much in 10 years. Since my “Friday” group of shooters were mostly instructors from my agency I thought it would be good for them to see it too. I finally cleaned it and the mags the night before the state IDPA match and worried it wouldn’t work clean!
I cannot give round counts on all my guns. I would try to keep records but soon forget and cared for shooting more than cleaning and secretarial work. Even in snipers, the round count log soon meant nothing. When I supervised them, a couple times I would hear one say “Time for rebarrel, I am at 8ooo rounds!” though the gun still shot ¾ moa. Everything can and will break and identical items will break at random intervals; so …screw it. But I can tell you that I shoot my guns and do not get caught up in all the replacement interval hype. The last time you know for sure your gun worked was the last round you fired. That is why you carry a back up or two and another in the unit…a backup rifle too for that matter!
When FBI HRT got their Baers and mostly SA custom shop guns; one of their week long transition schools (taught by Jerry Barnhart-I think 1997 but would have to find the certificate) was in sunny AZ during the winter. I was invited to fill a slot as well. 2500-3500 rounds were fired in that course, all of it the FBIs duty load, Rem Golden Sabre (I think…). I brought ammo but they gave me theirs, so I shot it. There were some local FBI SWAT guys I knew there too that were running lower grade SA (since the local teams did not get the “great” guns. I got tired of the class coming to a halt to fix and clean the “great” guns that quit functioning (or did they? Shooter induced and blamed on too tight a tolerances? More later on that)….What did I use in that class? My original Colt Series 70. No issues though I did clean it every night, but that was after nearly a 1000 rounds per day!
Of all my 1911s this Colt Series 70 is the ONLY one that has ever had any internal work to it. In 1986, our then rangemaster throated and polished it because it had issues with our department ammo. But it seems all the older Colts needed this. Later (thanks to AzDoug ,M4C member in 1991) the front strap was undercut and checkered, sights changed, thumb and grip safety changed and a SA mag guide added and blended. Then all the lower parts and receiver were nickel finished.
My primary uniformed, duty gun is a Kimber Warrior (uh oh, boo hiss) since the 1911 got approved. “Oh no, how could you trust your life to that? Haven’t you read the internet and Yam’s article?” Yes, I have. I took from it what there was to learn from his experience. That is not a personal attack on Mr. Yam, just a differing opinion based on experiences (not as large a sampling, I know), as you will read.
But my Warrior has been dead nut reliable with no parts breakages. Other than the Smith Alexander mag guide/mainspring housing, some grip tape on the front strap, an SF X300 and a pair of stippled Ergo grips; it is in original condition…untouched and un-tuned. It was my first railed 1911 and bought in very nearly new condition for 800 bucks from an accountant type who bought one to try but preferred his Glock. For nearly three years it has been the “Friday” and in-service training pistol unless I knew there was no enough time to clean it before Friday night’s shift (yes, I do however clean my duty guns, per policy).
In all these years, and all these 1911s I have owned , I have had ONE part break. That was an extractor claw broke off of my “custom, hand-built, one man shop” 2011 in .40SW. I suspect it was poorly done as it broke at about the 400 round mark. I fitted an Ed Brown model myself and sold it a few hundred rounds later….limited class was not for me anyway. Nor was loading long for it and resetting dies for the SA .40 single stack I have.
I have been present to see an extended ejector on a 3 inch Kimber CDP turned into a GI length ejector after 1000 or so rounds. The owner did not know it till he cleaned it. He called Kimber, they sent a new one with pin and I replaced it-no fitting needed.
Yeah, I know it was MIM. Others use MIM. And Wilson has and publicly had no issue with it. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/125106-what-wilson-combat-thinks-mim-parts-1911s.html.
I am no metallurgist and am sure there is shit MIM and good MIM as well as shit steel and good steel. Whatever, this is really not a discussion on the MIM vs. non MIM part debate (that will still be going on a hundred years from now like 9mm vs. .45). The fact is those short guns are violent and a shooter with good technique continued to run the gun flawlessly without the extended arm on the ejector. And did you notice the Wilson polymer short guide rod talk in the listed link? I never heard of that.
Funny how proper technique does away with a lot of the gadgets and mods that makers and users put on guns!
While we’re on parts breakage and handgun issues…
We have full time range/firearms instructors/armorers staff (a sergeant and two, sometimes three officers) plus several adjuncts who have full time assignments elsewhere in the department. I had that job for about four years in addition to SWAT member/trainer/coordinator when there were only two us assigned there.
Every year, every gun is torn down and inspected, detailed cleaned, repaired etc. We issue G17s, G19s and G26s. Also approved nearly all other Glocks in .40 and .45 and had some Sig 226s and 220s and SW 5906s “grandfathered” in. Plus a list of others approved for backup and off duty carry, rifles, shotguns and subguns. If carried in a “law enforcement capacity” it was torn down, department owned or not.
When talking about 1911s many praise just about anything over the 1911. I have been through all (prior to Gen 4s) the Glock recalls (though they never used that word, they preferred upgrades), slide replacements, extractor and EDP bearing upgrades, recoil spring guide rod changes, mag and mag follower issues and cracked frame and slide recalls.
I had a reliable 220 crap on me after a DPS rebuild when a brand new trigger return spring broke with less than a 100 rounds on it during a USMC JTF-6 CQB school. Several of the 220s (made in Germany) locking blocks broke in the 80 and 90s, mine included.
I have seen several and experienced one SW extractor eject itself from the slide as well as the right side decocking lever from 5906s. I have seen and had more than one Glock extractor chip off so bad in training that it would not extract at all. Not to mention the Glock slide stop levers whose spring broke or had to be trimmed to prevent rounds in the mag causing the loaded pistol to go into slide lock. According to TGO who runs some classes for Delta, they removed all the slide stop levers from their G22s for these very reasons. I do not know if the “D” boys are still running or experimenting with Glocks.
We got a batch of consecutively numbered (I think 60) G17s in the late 90s with factory Trijicon NSs. To zero any of them the rear sight was drifted so far to the right, it extended over the slide, snagging everything and cutting hands doing clearance drills. Glock blamed Trijicon and vice versa. After a lot of haggling, measuring and bitching Glock took them back. The sights were right….slides were bad…and not the rear sight dovetail either.
Everyone has a bad one, or even a bad batch once in a great while. We’ve had a couple Colt ARs with barrels so loose they couldn’t zero (loose barrel nuts) and a couple 6920s that were short chambered. Maybe a lazy employee, maybe a bad batch of parts from outside contractor, maybe a bad gauge or tool no one caught in time. No hard feelings on what is usually a proven product….just make it right in a timely fashion with no excuses. Gun makers could learn from the auto industry in this area.
We thought Glock’s customer service was great for years till a certain regional rep was “released”. Then we found out they had a hard time doing right to even larger customers. Must have been that whole “Perfection” thing and all. I haven’t had to deal with big reps and contracts personally for about 10 years; so maybe things are better.
And don’t get me started on HK of old. We’d call HK in VA for MP5 parts when nearly everyone was still using subguns for entry; and couldn’t get a part at all! Maybe that hasn’t changed since my old units 416s are shit and they are in the process of trading them off.
Do not get me wrong, Glock pistols have served me, my agency and many others well. Very well. But they are far from perfect and I have seen more go wrong or need replaced on them than any 1911 I have owned or been around.
So with “all” this 1911 experience that I have (others in my agency talking, not me…it is easy being a big fish in a little pond of 350) I was tasked with writing responses, policies and training courses during the approval process and giving them to a neighboring agency who just got 1911s approved too (the only two municipal agencies in the Phx area). I teach the transition class and brought AzDoug to the instructor “Train the Trainer” class to assist.
Over the last 25 years or so, I have learned more about guns, shooting guns and repairing guns from AzDoug than I could ever remember! He can build from scratch.
Why have Glocks been so successful in LE? They are very forgiving (no Gen 4 experience). Agencies loved them, less remedial training. They are “under sprung” for their caliber doing away with most all the shooter induced malfunctions we all saw in the Sigs, SW etc. They are easy to shoot. And many a good shooter has gotten lazy after shooting them for years. Example (one of many): Big, very big, muscles on muscles retired Alq PD SWAT guy comes to our PD. Carried 1911s for years. Glock 21 for three years with us. Buys new Kimber Tactical Entry HD and has stoppage after stoppage. I grab the gun and run a few courses (I am like half this guys size and strength) – no issues, at all. His mouth hangs open as I tell him to man up and and hold the gun right. No more problems. He later laughs and agrees the Glock is forgiving, very forgiving. Later goes through the transition course with no problem. Some try the transition course and opt to stay with the Glock. Good for them. I respect a wise decision like that. To run the 1911 well you had better marry it and for that first year after years of Glock, I tell them shoot, shoot, shoot-it is a different animal!
I have found this many times with 1911s. People have issues send them back to the factory. Factory says its fine just shoot it. They do it, still does not work (for them). A 1911 guy shoots it, it runs fine. I have bought a few this way. The owner says something like well it likes you, so here. Some guns are easy and forgiving and others require consistent good technique. If you shoot a lot in one session and start getting stoppages, don’t be too eager to blame the gun.
I have seen folks after a long day of training start getting stoppages with M4s. They get tired and fail to provide a solid platform for it to operate on.
These inconsistent testing comparisons get annoying, too many variables. Do them all from Ransom Rests, eliminate the human error. People brain fart, limp wrist a shot or two, whatever….guns are machines if they’re broke, they’re broke. They just don’t break every 5th, 10th or 1000th time without there being another outside contributing factor.
My theory on why Kimber says a 500 round break in period? They know that most gun owners are not real shooters. They hope they learn how to shoot the 1911 during this 500 rounds period and all those shooter induced stoppages go away. I never had to break in my Kimbers. Many here have said no gun should require break. Then came Gen 4 Glocks ….a break in was suddenly needed and deemed okay in Glock’s case. Or was it just that now that Glock started to put a proper spring under the barrel, some people had to learn how to shoot again?
Why put extended ejectors on everything when they are not needed? Why are many ARs “overgassed”? Why do makers say replace the recoil spring every 2000 rounds when it is really not needed? Why, why, why?
Because they do not want all those guns back in the warranty shop from people who have not learned to shoot properly or who feed the gun shit ammo. Do you really think that a pistol that send spent brass into the shooter's face is a gun problem? Rarely at best. What do you think Elmore and others are doing in their “reliability packages” to ARs? Simply put, “over-gassing” them. When I sole sourced 10 Commandos and a couple “real” M4s from him many years ago I knew that we would not always shoot mil spec ammo and our duty round did not have that kind of pressure. I took him cases of all three (practice, duty and shoot house) types we used and said to just make sure they all work or I will never hear the end of it (since some of the HK fanboys wanted that G36 abortion instead of Colts). At the end of the day, for the feared SHTF, Zombie invasion, etc gun everyone talks of having; I want it over gassed TDP be damned. I do not know what ammo may be found next! I want it to run, period.
Side note, DPMS donated a new AP4, I think, M4ish clone as a prize for the state police games a few years back. We made it a stage gun that everyone had to use on that stage. Zero’ed it the day before, cleaned and lubed it. Over the course of the day it ate 1400 rounds of American Eagle red box without a hiccup, or anymore cleaning and lube. Many shooters were concerned if they would get a reshoot if it failed. I ROed the stage and was concerned myself….a fluke you say. I don’t know, maybe.
We never seem to hear of head to head, apples to apples testing. Do all you can to eliminate all error to blame only the gun. Gauge each round, every round. I have found factory duty ammo with all types of errors. High primers, deformed cases, little or no crimp, damaged or burred rims, inconsistent powder charges and even upside down bullets. We would random sample from every lot. Shoot it for accuracy from a Ransom, gauge it, pull the bullets and weigh charges. It passed or the whole lot when back.
I mentioned the bad rims on reloads earlier when surely someone was thinking I was making an excuse; especially after learning the gun was a Kimber with EE. Well with 6-8 guys all shooting .45 from 1911s, a Glock and a XD; and cleaning up at the end you have no idea the source of the brass. I learned when mixing brass that my Dillon does not fully resize like a LEE die in a single stage press. Nor does the shell plate hold them to the same tolerance. I started using the LEE shell holder as a rim gauge. Amazing how many cases would go through the Dillon but not slide into and fully rotate 360 in the LEE shellholder. That makes me check and either discard the case or use a small swiss file and clean the extractor mark/burr out. With all these production guns dropping brass they all leave different and sometimes extreme abuse marks on the case head and rim. This can be a show stopper in a 1911 depending on extractor fit, requiring a knife to pry the case from under the claw. After I started rotating every round in the LEE shell holder…no problems, ever.
They talk of Kimbers needing chamber reaming. Not any of mine. If the case seats fully in the gauge under its own weight and drops freely from gravity it will do it in my Kimber barrels. If the cartridge fails, I resize it loaded in the single stage press with LEE die and try again. Sometimes the bullet is lifted requiring re-seating and crimping due to the varying tolerances in the 2000 projecticle boxes of Zero 230 gr FMJ that I use. But, this saves 95 percent of what years ago I would reject and pull. If it fails after that, it goes into a box to be shot from a Glock or XD someday. Cartridges that would not gauge will fully seat and rattle in my SAs and Colts.
A little about the Kimber EE in my experience. We all know how sensitive 1911 guys are about Browning’s original design. There were three different EEs that Kimber used that I have seen. Like Glock, they changed some angles and cuts. The Team Match guns are the only ones I am aware of that had a tool steel part. Not that I think it was the tool steel that made it work since many extractors in many guns are MIM or cast and work fine. But the Team Match had different cuts than any of the others and I have not ever found or read of a Team Match owner who complained.
The Kimber EE is very very Glockish when you pull it all out, though it does not use the solid rod of the Glock EDP. The extractor cannot “clock” regardless of the firing pin stop’s fit. It is forgiving in regards to clearance drills without damaging the claw or screwing with the tension of the fixed extractor. Frankly, I really like it. It is a drop in part. I have never even changed the spring. Did I say how many rounds this guns has fired?
It is hard for me to say with certainty what all the issues where with the Kimber EE. It was a costly venture for them to research, test and design it and retool to produce it. I have shot other Kimber models with the EE and never had an issue. I have had people give me their guns to trouble shoot with EEs that have always been Glock shooters and complained of stoppages on their first 1911. I would run the gun with their ammo and mine and never had issue. I would not shy from buying one. Kimber lost a ton on that one-design and then retroing many guns with new slides. I would have loved to have been given the opportunity to shoot them all before they put new slides on them! I have spoken to a few people back at Kimber about this and after telling them how I like the design and have had no issues, they say how costly and unnecessary most of the rebuilds were.
How is it that a fixed extractor on a 1911 is supposed to be replaced every 4000 rds. or whatever I keep reading? It only holds an empty case unsupported at about 4 lbs of pressure for a very short time. The rim slides up the breech face and under the claw. I don’t see it. Have never replaced or re tensioned any of mine. If they are quality and fit right I just do not get it. Unless you are doing hundreds of double feed clearing drills.
I am saying BUY KIMBER or nothing? No, I don’t give a shit what anyone buys. But despite all the hate talk everywhere you look, they are still in business and constantly expanding their line. They must be making money and since I have not heard of any tax payer funder Obama bail out for Kimber; the cop in me tells me that somewhere along the line there is some bias. There are great things about Colt, SAs and Kimbers. There are things I hate about each of them too. Like what?
Kimber hates:
• Kimber fails to see the need to hard anodize alloy frames anymore
• Kimber’s matte bluing sucks
• Kimber puts their sucky blue finish control parts on all models with “black” controls. Even those with KimPro finish. These wear fast and look like shit.
• Kimber fails to put ramped barrels in alloy framed .45s and again, no anodized frame
• Kimber uses anemic 30 lpi checking on all but the Gold Combat and these are only 24 lpi
• Kimber uses Swartz safety. Not a deal breaker for me but many are out of time which poses an issue those that do not grip the gun. Hell, one of mine is out of time and never knew it till recent discussion prompted testing. They will fix the timing issue, but it should have not left that way. They test fire but evidently do not test the timing of the device
• “Custom Shop” marked models is misleading. Its like Chevy of old. Custom, Cheyenne, Silverado. Same truck different appearance features.
• Front sights not pinned
• Customer service is reportedly hit or miss…I never needed it
• One year warranty. Could learn from SA on this
Kimber likes:
• Even base gun (Custom) is de-horned
• Interior is pretty much void of tool marks. Looks good and cleans easy
• Fit is very good, extractor is flush fit to slide. SA could learn from this!
• Many models with varying “options packages”. Like buying a car but do not ask for one thing less or one thing more. The whole package or nothing. No true custom shop
• Accuracy on most models about the same (cannot speak for Gold Combat or Super Match). But the base guns I have shot were better than other production base 1911s
• True “Colt” front strap radius. I know SA went back to it. SW does not
• My preferred high grip method under the trigger guard. I can tell a SA from Kimber blindfolded
• Prefer the ambi safety ala Kings style over Swensen
• Good feeling/breaking triggers…that last (at least mine)
Springfield hates:
• All but TRPs are like shooting a box of razor blades. They are sharp, everywhere. I can’t touch my Trophy Match or others without bleeding on it. Though I love that sharp SA 20 pli checkering! Even the rear slide serrations slice off the inside of my firing hand thumb while shooting. Tearing off that “slide callus” that takes so long to build!
• Frontstrap to triggerguard radius.
• Cannot seem to flush fit an extractor at all till you break the 1400 dollar mark. Even my pretty little EMPs extractor sticks out a good 35 thou
• Shitty triggers-could learn from Kimber on this for production gun, SWs is good too
• Two piece guide rods…two piece? Seen these loosen up and come on out. I am not a throw a good one piece away and make it all GI but come on, two piece?
• ILS
• Interior full of rough tool markings
• The Brazil v. USA thing
• And what is this from the custom shop? You mean this is not done prior to shipping?
o 1911-A1 Reliability Package: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $150.00
o 1. Deburr pistol internally
o 2. Tune extractor and ejector
o 3. Recut barrel throat and polish feed ramp
o 4. Check headspace
o 5. Polish breechface
o 6. Inspect and test fire for function
Springfield likes:
• Lifetime warranty
• Full custom shop
• Hard to beat customer service
• Pinned front sights
• TGO gave me hat!
I have only handled the newer re tool Colts and not even fired my E series so I did not get into them. Everyone has their likes and dislikes. After de horning, undercutting the trigger guard, some checkering and trigger work; I really like my SA .40 and the EMP has been flawless for about 5-600 rounds. I just think we all need to step back once in a while and give things fair shake. That gun you saw shitting in the hands of the guy next to you on the range may not have been the guns fault. Despite how great he ran the Glock he pulled from his bag after his 1911 frustration got the best of him.
And I am especially cautious about advice from those that make and or sell parts and services who tell me I have to throw it all away except the slide and frame and start over. Hell, look back and see how the M&P was great as it was but now we have to replace this and that. The Glock was perfect but now we find the geometry is messed up and we need to replace this and that. I am sure it can all be made smoother better faster. And TGO last year’s Dave William’s built .40 singlestack was like art and smooth as two ice cubes rubbing together in a AZ summer. But I didn’t shoot it any better!
What we spend is relative to what we make. If you can afford a “X” then buy it. I could care less. But I have beaten a lot of “X” guns with an old Kimber production gun.
I reserve the right to add to this, correct my thoughts and experiences; grammar and spelling based on those who question my education or jog my memory through questions and/or “flaming” me. I assure you my corrections and additions will be based on my best recollection after getting old and being knocked out too many times and not on lies to attempt to defend my position! :D
Am I banned yet?:confused: