care to offer a WAG?????...... [Archive]

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jmoore

01-12-12, 08:37

Abraxas

01-12-12, 08:50

Microalign

01-12-12, 08:51

With no barrel for the bullet to be pushed through, the only pressure build up will be from the case itself which doesn't do much. The crimp around the bullet isn't tight enough for the charge to generate enough pressure to get much velocity out of the bullet. You'd probably get more velocity out of a Red Rider BB gun.

pmarc

01-12-12, 08:57

If a standard 9mm, 115gr round were to fire outside of a weapon

I recall reading the conclusion of a report by the NFPA, regarding fires in small arms ammo (not HE) depots. The gist of it is that regular protective equipment of firemen is enough to protect against projectiles (bullets and shrapnel)

viperashes

01-12-12, 09:03

It's pretty much been covered. The case would probably just pop, or the bullet would unseat, and most of the powder would just burn. Ammunition just "blowing up" all "zip, zing, zoom" like in the movies doesn't happen. The major part of a bullet's velocity comes from the pressure imparted by the gas trying to expand the case and only having one path of least resistance - pushing the bullet down the barrel.

rsgard

01-12-12, 09:20

viperashes

01-12-12, 09:34

The brass goes flying because it has less mass than the bullet.

Seen it happen before. Did not get hit but i think it might leave a lump if it hit you in the melon other than that i think your eyes would be the only thing you need to protect. Probably could get powder burns if you were holding it or something.

.50 cal bullets are an entirely different story. They kaboom when you use them as a hammer apparently. Who'da thunk it. :rolleyes:

Is 'gore' for the sake of education site acceptable?

ST911

01-12-12, 09:40

Dropped rounds that have their primers impacted usually come apart only a few feet (if that), with little force or injury potential. Observed.

rsgard

01-12-12, 09:42

.50 cal bullets are an entirely different story. They kaboom when you use them as a hammer apparently. Who'da thunk it. :rolleyes:

Is 'gore' for the sake of education site acceptable?

OP mentioned 9mm. No doubt 50 could do some damage, if you just threw the brass at someone you could hurt them let alone all that powder and the bullet.

though if you using the primer end of the brass as a hammer and it detonated on contact then whatever you were hitting is going to act as a backstop for the brass and all kinetic energy would transfer to the bullet.

viperashes

01-12-12, 09:49

OP mentioned 9mm. No doubt 50 could do some damage, if you just threw the brass at someone you could hurt them let alone all that powder and the bullet.

though if you using the primer end of the brass as a hammer and it detonated on contact then whatever you were hitting is going to act as a backstop for the brass and all kinetic energy would transfer to the bullet.

I know OP was talking about 9mm. I just recently rediscovered an old military warning notice that had pictures of a guy that apparently decided to use a .50 round to try to seat a pindle mount in a turret and blew his hand into 5 types of swiss cheese. I figured at the very least, it was a flimsy excuse to share it. :suicide:

rsgard

01-12-12, 09:50

I know OP was talking about 9mm. I just recently rediscovered an old military warning notice that had pictures of a guy that apparently decided to use a .50 round to try to seat a pindle mount in a turret and blew his hand into 5 types of swiss cheese. I figured at the very least, it was a flimsy excuse to share it. :suicide:

Still a good demonstration that a loose round is still dangerous.

MegademiC

01-12-12, 13:56

After shooting, Ill burn the ammo boxes... well apparently there was a round or 2 of 7.62x39 in one of the boxes and the steel casing flew about 6 feet. Id be worried about my eyes, but anything else will be bruised at the worst.

This was a single projectile. Obviously if you have large quantities, things change.

481

01-12-12, 18:33

......Wild Ass Guess??????

If a standard 9mm, 115gr round were to fire outside of a weapon (not chambered & no barrel) - any guess or first-hand experience as to how fast the bullet would be travelling initially?

And if Doc is reading this - what would be the approximate fps needed to penetrate skin & skull?

TIA

john

There are two models that can be used to predict the required velocity of a given projectile to penetrate skin one by Duncan MacPherson and the other given in this .pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

Depending upon the model used, a 9mm 115 gr projectile would, assuming that it was in stable flight (ie: fired from a pistol and striking nose forward), would need somewhere between ~180 fps (MacPherson) and ~200 fps (DoD/Hudgins) to penetrate skin; the models seem to agree with each other. Throw in bone and the required velocity increases, probably by a great deal and would also be highly dependent upon the bullet's orientation at impact.

An unconfined/unchambered projectile would likely not attain a velocity great enough to penetrate skin completely and would likely not strike in a nose-forward attitude requiring an even greater velocity to over come that additional resistance in order to produce penetration. Its velocity would be, perhaps, on the order of several tens of feet per second, if I were to throw a WAG at the question. :D

481

01-12-12, 19:47

I know OP was talking about 9mm. I just recently rediscovered an old military warning notice that had pictures of a guy that apparently decided to use a .50 round to try to seat a pindle mount in a turret and blew his hand into 5 types of swiss cheese. I figured at the very least, it was a flimsy excuse to share it. :suicide:

I've got that .pdf

It's pretty graphic, but it really shows how big rifle rounds (charged with lots of propellant) like that become grenades when misused.

Turnkey11

01-13-12, 06:37

I've got that .pdf

It's pretty graphic, but it really shows how big rifle rounds (charged with lots of propellant) like that become grenades when misused.

We have it hanging up in random places around the armory along with pictures of FOD and wrecked aircraft.

Grytpype

01-13-12, 09:06

......Wild Ass Guess??????

If a standard 9mm, 115gr round were to fire outside of a weapon (not chambered & no barrel) - any guess or first-hand experience as to how fast the bullet would be travelling initially?

And if Doc is reading this - what would be the approximate fps needed to penetrate skin & skull?

There's an article from American Rifleman years ago where they tested ammo in fires and whether it would penetrate firefighter's bunker gear. It wouldn't. Mythbusters also experimented with unconfined ammunition in a fire in episode #85 and also didn't find lethal velocities.

Lucien Haag did a study on falling bullets year ago and found a velocity of around 170fps necessary for a .38 158gr round nose bullet to penetrate the abdominal wall of a pig. Skin and skull? Not sure, but you'll have to do better than that.

I slammed the wrong end of an impact hammer on the work bench when unloading a 147gr 9mm cartridge a few years ago. Lots of unburned powder, but the bullet did leave with enough velocity to blow the back of the plastic impact hammer off.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/patchbunny/P7112092.jpg

ST911

01-13-12, 09:23

Couple of interesting links...

From the Corvallis (OR) FD FAQs, this one on storing ammunition and the effects of fire.

http://www.ci.corvallis.or.us/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1565&Itemid=1904

How do I store ammunition so it doesn't harm emergency personnel in a fire?

Firefighters experience the surprise of exploding ammunition in a fire situation with some regularity. When bullets and shells are exposed to fire, as long as they are not chambered in a weapon, they are generally not lethal. They do explode and you certainly would not want to be in the immediate vicinity. Most often, however,they will simply explode and not project the pellets or slugs with much force. The safety gear worn by firefighters has been fairly effective in protecting them from injury in this case.Loaded weapons exposed to high heat, however, will "shoot" and semi-automatic weapons will keep shooting, especially if gas-operated as most repeating shotguns and some rifles are. This is a severe hazard for emergency personnel (or anyone in the vicinity). There is a documented instance (which occurred elsewhere, by the way) in which a loaded rifle, mounted on a wall rack, kept discharging during a fire, hitting the command vehicle, causing fire personnel to believe that they were being shot at. They withdrew to a safe location and, consequently, the house was destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt in that instance. So, this is another good reason for not keeping loaded weapons in the home.Safe storage of shells and bullets would be best in a fire resistive gun cabinet. Lacking that, there are metal ammunition boxes; however, they create a risk of a larger, more powerful explosion if the components were to detonate due to the confined energy created by the box itself. A personal safe with a fire rating would be the next best, giving security against unwarranted access as well as fire protection.

This from Canton (OH), with a video of rounds cooking off in a fire. The firefighters on scene don't look too excited.

http://www.firefighternation.com/videos/ammunition-fires-during-ohio-structure-fire

Unicorn

01-28-12, 04:37

The store I work at shipped a case of loose packed .45. 500 rounds in the case. It was returned because the buyer gave us the wrong address (which was a positive in this case). One number off or a similar typo. A round has somehow gone off in the case, which set another round off. A third round had a small dent in it, but that was it. No major boom, or explosion. No damage to the cardboard box it was in. I think the UPS driver had heard a pop. Probably just a rare occurrence where the tip of a bullet somehow managed to hit the primer just right when the driver hit a bump.

Jippo

02-13-12, 05:28

I know one case from 2002 when a woman was killed by an exploding cartridge in Lahti, Finland. She was unknowingly using a tin containing old surplus rifle rounds (most likely 7.62x53R) as a base for a disposable barbeque. Round, apparently a single one, ignited subsequently killing her. Other people were present but they remained unharmed.

I've been burning ammunition knowingly (faulty reloads etc.) in a steel pot and by mistake (along the paper packages) and I have never faced a serious situation due to these. Mostly the cartridge casing just ruptures. But the case above goes to show that cartridges can be dangerous in case of fire.

D-R

02-21-12, 23:37

Viper, know the pic you are thinking of. That was quite the "educational" example- don't *ever* use a BMG round as a hammer. Aside from that, personal experience showed that:

A) rounds can cook off due to extreme heat (say, in contact with the firewall of a vehicle going over the Shasta pass in height of summer)

B) they make a very noticable pop

C) the bullet does not really travel very far, mostly just some brass spall from case rupture. Think path of least resistance.

Lesson I learned: always ask if the vehicle's previous owner may have inadvertently spilled a box of ammo down the front of the dashboard....:blink:

ucrt

02-22-12, 00:05

.

Several (many) years ago, 5 or 6 of us were camping. We had fried some fish and were sitting at the campfire eating, when I got a bone stuck in my throat. I started hacking, gagging, and coughing like a maniac trying to get it up.
My buddies were all tanked up and started laughing saying, "Let's see if he passes out." Well, finally, on my own, I coughed the bone up.

Later, when I recuperated and everyone was all fat, happy, and relaxed sitting around the fire, I took about 10 .22 LR bullets in my hand and walked around to each guy to show them what I had in my hand. After I showed them all, I let them see me throw them in the fire.

It was almost worth nearly choking to death, watching those drunk idiots scratching and clawing trying to get up and get away from the fire.

As far as .22RF's, the brass is what flies and it will barely clear the fire. The lead is heavy, so it pretty much stays put.

.