View Full Version : NFA ? on divided locations
If there are multiple trustees within the trust and one SBR'd lower and multiple sub 16" uppers do the short uppers all have to be "with" the SBR'd lower?
A) For example if one trust person has a 10.5 and 11.2 and another trust person has a 12 and 14.5 uppers at different residents is that legal?
B) If say one trust person took the SBR lower and one short upper to his ranch to shoot and left another short upper at his home with other ARs in the home and his family was not in the trust would they be in in trouble for being in a house with ARs and a short upper (possible intent to build)?
C) If one trust member who was NOT in possession of the SBR'd lower had some short uppers and fully built ARs in his residence would he be in some violation (for possible intent to build)?
How does this work?
You would be safe as each person has a legal avenue to use the short uppers.
It would be no different than if you sent an SBR to a gunsmith but have a second short upper and retrain it, while your SBR is being worked on and you own other non-NFA AR15s.
The only time you get into trouble is if you have a combination of parts with no legal way to use them. Don't overthink this.
I agree 100% with the advice posted by scottryan. I understand how you can "overthink" this a little. From what I have read and heard from authorities in this field is that a problem can arise if the person who is not in possession of the SBR has SBR uppers along with non-SBR lowers unassembled. From reading the OP, I think that is what you were trying to get at. Let me know if that is not the case.
You don't want to be in possession of "parts" that could be assembled into an illegal SBR. If those parts are in the same house unassembled, then it could be interpreted by the powers that be as constructive possession.
My advice (I am not an attorney and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night either) is that if you want to sleep better, make sure all the non-SBR AR's are assembled with their respective 16"+ uppers. Now if you have a pistol AR lower unassembled, that would be fine.
JMHO.
O
There is no such thing as contructive intent or possession.
I agree 100% with the advice posted by scottryan. I understand how you can "overthink" this a little. From what I have read and heard from authorities in this field is that a problem can arise if the person who is not in possession of the SBR has SBR uppers along with non-SBR lowers unassembled. From reading the OP, I think that is what you were trying to get at. Let me know if that is not the case.
You don't want to be in possession of "parts" that could be assembled into an illegal SBR. If those parts are in the same house unassembled, then it could be interpreted by the powers that be as constructive possession.
My advice (I am not an attorney and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night either) is that if you want to sleep better, make sure all the non-SBR AR's are assembled with their respective 16"+ uppers. Now if you have a pistol AR lower unassembled, that would be fine.
JMHO.
O
Thanks for the input. Personally I do not think you can overthink NFA laws when they are ambiguous and open to interpretation, but I just want to know if it is or is not "written" somewhere how this should be handled.
Thanks again.
There is no such thing as contructive intent or possession.
It seems like everyone is always saying that but people still get arrested. I am familiar with one individual who was arrested locally in Florida, not by ATF and the charges were later dropped. I don't know how much it cost him but I am sure it was not fun. Look up Jesus Amador in Fort Myers, FL.
The only place I have found "constructive intent" or "constructive possession" addressed by ATF is from a letter to one individual. That letter is over 10 years old and this is one of the questions asked along with the interpretation of ATF at that time.
4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?
The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.
I won't post a link to it but you could use your GoogleFu to find it. That interpretation is even more strict because it says you can't have SBR uppers along with fully assembled semiauto AR's.
I believe it really comes down to who you are and what you are up to. If you are dealing meth and you have a title 1 AR lowers laying around with SBR uppers unassembled, I am sure it will be an additional charge. Now how is anyone going to find out? That is what it boils down to. Is some agency coming to your house with a warrant or are you involved in shady dealing? Then watch out. If not and you are a regular law abiding citizen like most of us on this forum, you will probably never have a problem. Don't advertise it and definitely don't try to sell an unregistered lower with an SBR upper. You just might end up in a similar situation as Mr. Amador.
If you want a clear cut answer just like the one in the letter someone submitted to ATF 10+ years ago, you are going to have to write them and ask them and then wait a year to get a reply. Call a 2A/NFA attorney and ask him/her their professional. If you search online for answers, you will find many opinions similar to mine and less people saying you have nothing to worry about. If nobody has ever been convicted of "constructive possession" or "constructive intent", I certainly wouldn't want to be the first. Stay as far from the gray area as you can and error on the side of caution just as I recommended before. JMHO. :) Stay safe and legal.
O
Did you bother to read the Amador case? If so, you will see that there was more involved.
As for the AR situation below- I may be wrong but there have also been other contradictory statements as well. I am also fairly certain that by possessing at least one registered SBR lower the additional ones would be a non-issue.
In any case it's not something I would be concerned about.
It seems like everyone is always saying that but people still get arrested. I am familiar with one individual who was arrested locally in Florida, not by ATF and the charges were later dropped. I don't know how much it cost him but I am sure it was not fun. Look up Jesus Amador in Fort Myers, FL.
The only place I have found "constructive intent" or "constructive possession" addressed by ATF is from a letter to one individual. That letter is over 10 years old and this is one of the questions asked along with the interpretation of ATF at that time.
4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?
The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA.
I won't post a link to it but you could use your GoogleFu to find it. That interpretation is even more strict because it says you can't have SBR uppers along with fully assembled semiauto AR's.
I believe it really comes down to who you are and what you are up to. If you are dealing meth and you have a title 1 AR lowers laying around with SBR uppers unassembled, I am sure it will be an additional charge. Now how is anyone going to find out? That is what it boils down to. Is some agency coming to your house with a warrant or are you involved in shady dealing? Then watch out. If not and you are a regular law abiding citizen like most of us on this forum, you will probably never have a problem. Don't advertise it and definitely don't try to sell an unregistered lower with an SBR upper. You just might end up in a similar situation as Mr. Amador.
If you want a clear cut answer just like the one in the letter someone submitted to ATF 10+ years ago, you are going to have to write them and ask them and then wait a year to get a reply. Call a 2A/NFA attorney and ask him/her their professional. If you search online for answers, you will find many opinions similar to mine and less people saying you have nothing to worry about. If nobody has ever been convicted of "constructive possession" or "constructive intent", I certainly wouldn't want to be the first. Stay as far from the gray area as you can and error on the side of caution just as I recommended before. JMHO. :) Stay safe and legal.
O
Personally I do not think you can overthink NFA laws when<snip>
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
What a petty stupid thing to say... did you learn to communicate on TOS?
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