View Full Version : 700yd (600 is ok) Precision(ish) AR - glass recommendations?
I'm rearranging my rifles a bit and struggling with an optic choice. The rifle in question is a Daniel Defense 16" CHF barrel, mid-gassed. It's purpose will be precision(ish) shooting out to 700yds. If it will shoot MOA out to that distance, I'll be happy. I am taking the Aimpoint off this rifle and putting it on my new MK18, so speed and CQB are covered there, however, I want variable magnification so that if I needed to use this rifle for a short(ish) range shot (50yds+) I could.
I want turrents and a BDC turret would be preferable. I also want a ranging reticle.
EDIT: Budget is now $1200 and am looking for a 1-6.
Thanks!
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_5938.jpg
Have you looked at Nikon and their M-223 AR scope lineup? I have a 2-8x with BDC but I have not found a need for it on any of my rifles. My use for my AR's has taken me in a different direction. It is unused thus far. I also have the Nikon mount for it. You may want to look into Nikon for that kind of money.
Not a big fan of the 3-9 class scopes for carbines or even DMR rifles. I really think that one needs to go 2x or less on the bottom end to make "both eyes open" sighting possible and to enlarge the exit pupil so as to speed up reticle aquisition for closer fleeting targets.
Secondly I would point out that while the BDC reticles seem helpful, they are just not adequate for stuff past 400-500. they are only rough estimates of what you will actually encounter in the field and you end up suffering with "not quite right". Take my advice on this one, grab an hash mark Mil or MOA reticle with an externally adjustable turret system. skip the dots and the BDC. you can always add a BDC onto your turret and use that, but a halfway decent range card based on your load and conditions will be an order of magnitude better than a crappy BDC based on a theoretical load and conditions. You can still use your reticle for hold overs this way.
The Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x has the features you want even if the mag is a bit high. the price is certainly right. (it streets for around $579)
The leupold MRT 1.5-5 MRT is a good scope but the reticle is specialized. the MRT 2.5-8x TMR is a decent scope. the Mark 8 would be cool but it's overpriced.
from there it's on to Nightforce and US Optics for me. Both offer nice scopes at a reasonable price.
Nikon makes nice optics and Burris does too.
Thank you for the input so far. To clarify, I'm wanting a BDC turret, not a BDC reticle. I want a ranging reticle and I want the reticle to match the turrets. In my price range, that leaves the new Leupold VX-R and Vortex Viper PST...decisions, decisions...Jack-O, I appreciate your input on the low end magnification. I'm really looking at this more as a precision rig, that could be used to fight than a fighting rifle that could be used at range. Does that make sense?
Thank you for the input so far. To clarify, I'm wanting a BDC turret, not a BDC reticle. I want a ranging reticle and I want the reticle to match the turrets. In my price range, that leaves the new Leupold VX-R and Vortex Viper PST...decisions, decisions...Jack-O, I appreciate your input on the low end magnification. I'm really looking at this more as a precision rig, that could be used to fight than a fighting rifle that could be used at range. Does that make sense?
yeah, I'm with you on that 100%. you still dont need to lose too much fighting rifle in the quest for "prescision" features. I think you are gonna be more caliber limited in the amount of force you can project at that range . it's gonna be a really narrow range of ability even with good projectiles at the longer ranges. your strength will really lie in the ability to hit out to 500, with great accuracy. After 500 it's a different game.
as for what you "want" I cant tell you that, I can only relay what little I know based upon my expense and time spent training and testing various gear setups. Frankly I'm always in a state of flux on some things but I also always have my front line setups dialed in and fully tested before they go front line.
on my "precision carbine" I have a 1-4x USO. On my DMR setup I have a 2.5-8s Leupy with plans on switching to a vortex 2.5-10x. on my precision long range setup (magnum caliber) I have a 3.5-15x56 Nightforce. Even shooting out to 1400 yards I never felt the 15x was a handicap. once you get over 20x riflescopes are rarely worth it without a very very large objective, like more than 60mm.
Anyway, some food for thought. as you learn more you will want different things based on what you learned, but you'll rarely if ever regret buying good optics with common reticles.
I have a Vortex 6.5-20x50 on my SPR type rifle, and I am very happy with it. Really nice glass. The only thing I would like to see is an open center like on the Leupold scope. I got to check out the new Viper PST 1-4x24 recently, and I really like that one. I will have one sooner or later. Vortex has really nice scopes at a good price.
Jeremy
Check out the GRSC 1-6 from NordenPerformance.com. It is FFP Reticle with ranging out to 800.
$1025 price tag
After lots of reading and some good input, I'm pretty much decided on the Vortex Viper PST 1-4 MOA/MOA. What I had to come to grips with is that "hits" are all that matter. It doesn't really make much sense to be super concenred with shooting tight groups at 600 yds with an AR. The quicker you can hit the target, the better off you are, and this optic should do that, plus it has the niceities of turrets for dialing dope if I wanted to. Now I just have to get the paperwork going on my MK18 and save a few more pennies (come on tax refund) to get this optic on my 16".
I think you made a good decision to go with a 1-4x. Check out the SS1-4, its a great 1-4, l actually sold my s&b short dot after running it for a while, not joking. Its around 800$ but the reticle is about perfect. The only thing l didnt like about the 1-4pst is its easy to lose the reticle in thick brush. Its still pretty good for 500$ though. I was just amazed how good the SS1-4x is and thats coming from someone who has owned and compared about every scope worth owning or comparing.
Gotta put in a plug for the Leupold VX-R. I ran one yesterday in a Defoor carbine course and will finish up the class with it today. I have the Patrol, which has external turrets but I think if I was spending my own money I'd buy the hunting with the protected turrets. I'd like to play with the HOG reticule model just to see how I like what appears to be a smaller circle and a heavier "plex".
Good choice. I never considered a BDC precise enough for a precision rifle. There are too many variables. I do own two scopes with BDC reticles, but only consider them good enough to get me somewhere on a large target quickly.
For my precision rifles I prefer to dial my dope.
I just put a vortex pst 2.5-10 on my spr. Fantastic glass for the price. I think you will be happy with the 1-4 as well
lifebreath
02-12-12, 21:15
Good choice. It will do what you need, plus more up close. Mil/mil is the only way to go, imo.
TangoSauce
02-13-12, 02:07
I'm putting a SWFA 1-4 on my SPR.
On a side note, I know a Vortex dealer that has bottom line prices that I can pass along your contact to if you go that route.
ThreeFingerPete
02-13-12, 13:33
I'm not trying to stir anything up, but does the rifle shoot sub MOA groups at 100y?
Sub minute @ 600-700 yards is no small task for a battle rifle.
glockshooter
02-13-12, 16:44
I think you may be asking to much for your chosen rifle and scope combo. I have and regularly use a Vortex 1-4. It is a great scope and it works well, but you are asking a lot to be able to get consistent hits out to 600-700 yards especially considering you are use a CHF chrome lined barrel.
Matt
1911nbmore
02-21-12, 20:13
I would look at the SWFA 3-9 scope FFP MIL/MIL. A 16inch chrome lined barrel with good ammo should be able to make hits out to 700 yrds pretty consistently on chest size targets.
So here's a quick update to the situation:
I swapped this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_7278.jpg
for this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/DD20MK18202.jpg.
Paperwork is pending with ATF.
I talked to my wife and my optics budget is now up to $1200. I was dead set on a used Nightforce 2.5-10 for the last 3 weeks and have been scouring the EE's here and at snipershide. I've also been doing a lot of reading. I thought that I'd rather have the 10X up top, but I really start questioning the 2.5 on the bottom. I look at what guys like Defoor, M4Guru, and KevinB are doing with their 4X optics (solid hits out to 600) and have just about talked myself back down to a 1-4 optic. I've looked at the NF 1-4, the USO 1-4, and the Vortex stuff again. Even with the $1200 budget, the Vortex has more of what I want (except maybe the DFP USO, but that's beyond the budget). I'm also starting to consider a used Short Dot if I can find one cheap enough, but I think $1500 with mount is about the max I could squeeze out.
So with the increased budget, am I missing any other good options? The Super Sniper is not a contender for me. I checked out a VX-R Patrol and the reticle was too fat and round.
Thanks!
LOL if you want me to throw another wrench into your plans take a look at IOR/Valdada's new generation 2-12x36 or the 1.5-8x optic. they are pretty awesome and have everything you are looking for basically.
once you look at it give Liberty Optics a call and get the street price from him. I have a feeling it will fall into your budget ;)
http://www.libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/p274.html
LOL if you want me to throw another wrench into your plans take a look at IOR/Valdada's new generation 2-12x36 or the 1.5-8x optic. they are pretty awesome and have everything you are looking for basically.
once you look at it give Liberty Optics a call and get the street price from him. I have a feeling it will fall into your budget ;)
http://www.libertyoptics.com/contents/en-us/p274.html
2-12 second focal plane seems like it would be a tiny bit limiting to me. I could see wanting to use the reticle at 7-12x, not just 12x.
Is the 2-12 better than the 2.5-10x FFP ?
I'll throw in another vote for the 2.5-10x Viper PST (MIL/MIL)...great glass, seems like a very solid scope, love the hash marks instead of dots, and will leave room in your budget for a nice (Larue) mount and quality ammo...
Just my $.02, but you are in the process with your MK18 as a close in true fighting rifle, why would you want to overlap those capabilities and worry about the 2.5x not being low enough on low mag side? Building a "jack of all trades" is something you would do if you were planning on having one, and ONLY ONE, rifle. If you're reaching out to 600m, then the 10x is something I would say is more practical if you're expecting consistent, accurate/precise hits.
Also, hypothetical situation: If you're engaging zombies out at 600m but fail to realize the one 10m away, then your low magnification setting won't matter :p
So with the increased budget, am I missing any other good options? The Super Sniper is not a contender for me. I checked out a VX-R Patrol and the reticle was too fat and round.
Thanks!
I'm hoping that Leupold's MK6 1-6 comes in at $1500 or less. They have a great .MIL/LEO discount also. Not sure if either one applies to you. Maybe somebody you know will hook you up. These are going to be offered in both the TMR as well as with BDC reticles.
I know you said the SS is not a contender, but their 1-6 is coming out soon also. Should perform above its price point, like all the SWFA SS scopes. Not sure what the issue is with it?
2-12 second focal plane seems like it would be a tiny bit limiting to me. I could see wanting to use the reticle at 7-12x, not just 12x.
Is the 2-12 better than the 2.5-10x FFP ?
In my experience, SFP is not significantly limiting in practice and gives a nice consistent aiming point and reticle size. IMO FFP is overblown for most real world uses, the spotting scope being one of the few exceptions.
IMO, FFP is useful if you are ranging with your reticle BUT, if you've ever done that you'd know that beyond 700 yards it's really impractical and that under 500 yards it's almost not needed. Reticle ranging is so prone to error as to make using it kind of a joke when affordable and reliable laser range finders are available. Most reticle ranging will want to be done at max mag anyway. It does have it's applications tho, so I'm not condemning it out of hand. The only real benefit of the FFP (In my opinion again) is that you can use the reticle for holdover points regardless of magnification.
for what this rifle is intended for I dont see any real world advantage to a FFP. It'd be mostly personal preference, with reasonable arguments made either way. I certainly wouldnt make THAT the deciding factor in scope choice for this application.
IMO, FFP is really only useful if you are ranging with your reticle
Plan to, but also use a range finder
and if you've ever done that you'd know that beyond 700 yards it's really impractical
and that under 500 yards it's almost not needed.
Have not, but I'll keep it under consideration.
for what this rifle is intended for I dont see any real world advantage to a FFP. it'd be mostly personal preference with reasonalbe arguments made either way. I certainly wouldnt make THAT the deciding factor in scope choice for this application.
I guess worse case, a SFP 12x should be very close to half on 6x which is surely marked on the scope, unlike certain 3x9 SFP that don't have 4.5x marked. It might need a reference mark near 6x where it's dead on, but it would be useable with simple math at least.
Hmmm... Yea, I'll have to kick it around some. Like the OP, I'm looking at the same optics for the same reason. 16" midlength 69 and 77gr.
My short list is:
3x9 Leupold VX-R Patrol TMR
2.5-10 IOR MP-8 reticle
3x9 SS
2-12 Vortex PST
If the SS was illuminated, there would be no question. If the PST wasn't reviewed to have worse glass than the IOR or Leupold... If the IOR wasn't tunnel-like at low power and was a little cheaper... If the Leu was FFP and had more than just the dot illuminated... etc etc etc.
I can't get the reticle I want in Nightforce, and it really seems no one makes what I want. So in the meantime I'll hang out here and see what other people are buying and why.
Well, you have alot of options but a crappy price constraint. You may want to talk to the wifey and see if you can spend more or save up some.
I would think hard about what you plan on using your weapon for....if you beat the crap out of it you need a tough scope and not some $199 Barska crap.
Optics and barrel make all the difference. Even if you could find a 1-4 USO used that would be a great choice. Or, the new Nikon M223 with BDC have gotten great reviews. Just depends on what you are shooting at, how far, and where you need to engage. Example, head shots using a Nikon m223 scope with BDC at 500 yards is not exactly easy.
Vortex, Supersniper, and some of the used stuff will be in your price range. Oh, and if you can find a used S&B short dot that is in even decent shape your going to pay well over 1K. Great scope and glass....had one on one of mine before i swapped for a USO.
Good luck.
The NF 2.5-10 is your scope. I have one on my SPR and it's awesome.
The USO would be nice. Bushnell is releasing some 1-6 scopes. Pretty freakin awesome and in your range.
Lotta good glass, keep us posted.
Well, you have alot of options but a crappy price constraint. You may want to talk to the wifey and see if you can spend more or save up some.
I would think hard about what you plan on using your weapon for....if you beat the crap out of it you need a tough scope and not some $199 Barska crap.
Optics and barrel make all the difference. Even if you could find a 1-4 USO used that would be a great choice. Or, the new Nikon M223 with BDC have gotten great reviews. Just depends on what you are shooting at, how far, and where you need to engage. Example, head shots using a Nikon m223 scope with BDC at 500 yards is not exactly easy.
Vortex, Supersniper, and some of the used stuff will be in your price range. Oh, and if you can find a used S&B short dot that is in even decent shape your going to pay well over 1K. Great scope and glass....had one on one of mine before i swapped for a USO.
Good luck.
I updated the first post to reflect my improved budget mentioned later in the thread.
The NF 2.5-10 is your scope. I have one on my SPR and it's awesome.
The USO would be nice. Bushnell is releasing some 1-6 scopes. Pretty freakin awesome and in your range.
Lotta good glass, keep us posted.
I know the 2.5-10 is good glass. Here's the deal: The barrel is a 16" LW. The carbine handles really well right now with just the T1 on it (I sold the magnifier a month ago). I do want to push it more towards longer range, but I think throwing a big piece of glass on a pencil barrel is a little counter-productive. That's where I came up with the 1-6 idea. I've talked to Leupold and am really hoping for them to do something with their VX-6 line. It's got the firedot reticle, now if they'll just give me a mil hash reticle and some mil turrets, I'll be happy!
I just keep going back and forth between the 1-6 and wanting more magnification on the top end. It really shouldn't be this difficult.
Lack of a close long distance range is the whole reason I sold the bolt gun (combined with cost of match .308, I just never shot it). So I don't want to push this thing too much into a "sniper rifle" role. I don't think the barrel would keep up anyway.
Then again, I do like the option of shooting small things at distance and like BSmith says, I do have the MK18 for closer-in stuff.
This is getting ridiculous.
Well, unless you want to lug around two rifles prepared for any range I would just set up one of them similar to a three gun rig. Slap a adjustable optic on top and out an offset T-1 or Burris fastfire, rmr etc off to the side at the 1 o'clock position and you are ready for anything from cqb to 700.
Im cool with that. It's just if you want turrets anything less than the 2.5-10 does not really make sense. If you want 1-4 you usually get BDC RETICLE , like my beloved ACOG. So you can run an ACOG. We rock steel at 600 with ACOGS all day long.
But the super nice stuff cost. 2 and 3k.
A 10x scope is useful for even the "shorter" ranges. It will aid in target ID and can be usefull for smaller or partially covered targets. A half silhouette would be easier to engage at 300-400 yards with a 2-10 than a 1-4.
Also you would be surprised at how accurate a free floated barrel can be. There was a pic around here of a member keeping all of his shots on a steel silhouette at 600 yards with a stock, plastic hand guards and all, BCM 20 inch rifle.
Well, I just picked this up from the EE over on Snipershide. Should be here by next week. Too good a deal to pass up (NF2.5-10x24).
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/25-10NF.jpg
;That will make you smile.
. Very cool
You gotta good deal;)
You may want to see if you can find a used S&B short dot....should be close to your price range. Or, a used 4x Acog will serve u well at that range. Might be able to find a used adjustable NXS scope as well. Just hunt around on the sites,
Also, other than the adjustable power leupy's and vortex I might look at the Nikon M-223...it has a BDC and should be able to make consistent hits to 600 easy using the reticle. The scope reticle is matched to a particular load. I think you said it was a 5.56 I hope...it isn;t a sniper scope but will def let you ring steel at that range.
Last suggestion is Bushnell I beleive has a new scope with built in laser rangefinder...all you have to do is have your rifle zeroed...hit the rangedinder and dial it up. You will be on your own for wind values though which at 600 can definately cause a miss if you cant read the wind.
Good luck.
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