View Full Version : "Fixing" the auto-forward in my m&p.
I found this thread concerning a fix for the auto forwarding in M&P's.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/219519-solution-auto-forward-slide-action.html
Has anyone tried it, and what has been your experience since the mod? I'm at a point where I want to either eliminate this feature of the gun or switch to a different make.
GitmoSmoke
01-15-12, 00:23
I think I am going to give it a try. I dont' care for the auto forward either, but I'm not going to get rid of the M&P. If you decide to go to another platform I think I can find a good home for your 9mm.
Alaskapopo
01-15-12, 00:31
Personally I wish they would design pistols to do this. Some of the guns I have owned would do this and its much faster for reloading and I have never had one that did not feed a round. The problem comes when it does not drop forward when you expect it to.
Pat
The problem comes when the auto-forward of the M&P kicks in inadvertantly and you end up with a failure to feed or an empty chamber. It is the sole reason I dumped the M&P9 platform in favor of the 9mm Glock.
I have owned 3 M&P9 (9mm's) and they all suffered from some form of feed-way stoppage relating to the auto-forward malfunction.
Ball/FMJ ammo feeds fine in the M&P9's. Hollow point ammo not so much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-w2i7OWkyY
The problem comes when you attempt to rely on the auto-forward of the M&P to chamber a round and you end up with a failure to feed or an empty chamber.
This.
I had it happen to me a few days ago(In my case, it was an empty chamber). Even when I de-mongo my reloads, I have a hard time keeping it from auto forwarding. If I can't rely on a round chambering when it happens, then I don't want it to happen.
This.
I had it happen to me a few days ago(In my case, it was an empty chamber). Even when I de-mongo my reloads, I have a hard time keeping it from auto forwarding. If I can't rely on a round chambering when it happens, then I don't want it to happen.
My original post was edited to more accurately represent my experience with the 9mm M&P platform.
I might have to give this a try. I am going be switching to the M&P as a carry platform and right now my M&P 9 FS auto forwards only every so often. Right now if it does happen I do a tap rack because I do not want a click. Every time so far a round was chambered and essentially I could be throwing life saving ammo on the ground. Not a good feeling but who has the time to do a press check during a reload? However perhaps a press check should be used? FWIW I had a Glock 23 gen 3 that would auto forward if you inserted the mag just right.
F-Trooper05
01-15-12, 03:32
This.
I had it happen to me a few days ago(In my case, it was an empty chamber).
The last class I was at this happened to one of the M&P shooters who relied on auto-forwarding for reloads. I'm now sold that it's bullshit and a major training scar.
I found this thread concerning a fix for the auto forwarding in M&P's.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/219519-solution-auto-forward-slide-action.html
Has anyone tried it, and what has been your experience since the mod? I'm at a point where I want to either eliminate this feature of the gun or switch to a different make.
What he did was not a "fix" for the auto forward although he may have made it less likely to happen with full engagement of the slide stop to the slide.
A true fix would be to change the angle of the interface surfaces so they lock together. Although this will also make releasing the slide by pushing down on the slide catch nearly impossible for those that employ this method.
From the left side looking at the slide catch it is slightly like this "\" and would need to be changed to this "/".
Or just stop SLAMMING your mags home like a caveman. :D
sniperfrog
01-15-12, 10:39
My M&P9 had a slide stop that was so hard to press I had to use two thumbs and even then it was difficult. I think S&W went too far the other direction to solve the auto-forward issue.
I sent it back to S&W and they installed a new slide stop. Now it works perfect. No auto forwarding and it's still easy to press.
The problem comes when the auto-forward of the M&P kicks in inadvertantly and you end up with a failure to feed or an empty chamber. It is the sole reason I dumped the M&P9 platform
I am in the process of dumping mine as well. I just need to find a replacement that feels as good in my hand.
Fire_Medic
01-15-12, 11:07
All of 2010 I worked at a local shop/range on my days of from the FD. We sold and rented all types of pistols naturally. Of our polymer framed pistols that we had for rent, ALL of them did the auto forward when inserting a mag, HK, Glock, M&P. They did not all start out that way, but all ended up that way. So I will not accept this as an M&P only issue. I wouldn't see it at this point as a reason to dump a platform either "unless" after contacting the manufacturer for resolution there still wasn't one.
I think we are far passed the days where "certain" brands of pistols were bomb proof reliable. The fact of the matter is, all of this guns have parts that can and will fail, regardless of brand. Yes some are more ergonomic than others, some are engineered better than others, and some are cheaper to fix than others, but they still should all receive the proper maintenance when it is required/necessary. For a good time I saw folks so confident in a certain brand that they would take a new pistol and start to CCW it without even firing it, which to me is a bad ideas regardless of brand. These things are mass produced, and they can have bad batches of pistols, parts, etc.
Are some manufacturers more prone to things going bad sure, are any of them perfect, I don't think so. I say be honest with yourself, and decide what are your needs in a pistol, find the one that meets those needs or most, and go from there. I have seen many folks dump a platform for no reason other than what they have read on the net, myself included a few years back.
I am of the belief that with the reputation of stone cold reliability of the Gen 3 9mm Glocks many folks just got lazy, stopped changing springs when it was recommended, didn't clean/lube their guns on a regular basis, and then wanted to blame the pistols when something went wrong.
The bottom line is, if you have a pistol that works, use it.
Some folks have had legitimate issues with pistols, and there are leg imitate issues out there, but a lot of stuff sometimes gets blown out of proportion. There is no one heavenly perfect handgun, shoot what works best for you.
Just my $0.02, which are not professional, and did not cost anyone anything. :p
So I will not accept this as an M&P only issue.
It certainly isn't an M&P only issue, however M&Ps are extremely prone to auto-forwarding right out of the box and THAT is an issue.
The last class I was at this happened to one of the M&P shooters who relied on auto-forwarding for reloads. I'm now sold that it's bullshit and a major training scar.
Yup, and the only time it didn't work in the two days was during the timed portion of firing, and he didn't expect it.
It's like the sex panther cologne in Anchorman...works 60% of the time, everytime.
It certainly isn't an M&P only issue, however M&Ps are extremely prone to auto-forwarding right out of the box and THAT is an issue.
It's just something else for S&W to fix..along with the hit/miss accuracy problems, crummy out of the box trigger, weak ejection some folks have,magazine issues I've read about ..When does it stop? I moved to another platform, and pretty much gave up on my FS9..I thought S&W listened to customer feedback, what happened? I guess a improved slide stop to prevent auto forwarding, will be something Apex Tactical will have to make, Because I doubt S&W will do anything about it anytime soon...
My HK P-30 does this reliably with 8 rounds of more when using a reasonably firm seating push. If done slowly it won't. Had an G17 that just started doing it during a match, had never done it before, continued to auto forward from that time on. My thumbs are long so when I rest my thumb on the slide catch [Beretta M9] I drop the slide anyway when the mag is seated.
If my M&P9's reliably chambered a round when the auto-forward occurred I wouldn't really care much at all and would still be carrying the M&P9 as my duty and daily concealed carry pistol.
The real issue for me came up when it occurred with several different hollow point loads including my issued duty ammo (Win Ranger 124gr +p bonded) and it caused a feedway stoppage where the nose of the hollow point would get jammed up against the bottom of the feedramp. I could easily replicate this with every M&P9 I ever handled including the three I used to own. They had production dates of: 2007, 2010, and 2011.
Fire_Medic
01-15-12, 13:04
Well......
Mine only does the auto forward if an excessive amount of force is used and I hot the rear of the grip intentionally when I reload.
If my M&P9's reliably chambered a round when the auto-forward occurred I wouldn't really care much at all and would still be carrying the M&P9 as my duty and daily concealed carry pistol.
The real issue for me came up when it occurred with several different hollow point loads including my issued duty ammo (Win Ranger 124gr +p bonded) and it caused a feedway stoppage where the nose of the hollow point would get jammed up against the bottom of the feedramp. I could easily replicate this with every M&P9 I ever handled including the three I used to own. They had production dates of: 2007, 2010, and 2011.
I totally agree with you on the above, they need to make this priority one and fix the issue asap. Reliability trumps all and any accuracy issues are secondary in my opinion. The following may not be applicable to the M&P 9mm pistols but here is a pic of what Colt did to the barrel feedramp on the new series 70 pistol to make them more reliable with HP ammo (barrel on the right).
http://www.coolgunsite.com/comm_pistols/barrel.jpg
If I know anything about S&W's they'll solve the issue by changing the
CAUTION: CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED
to
CAUTION: CAPABLE OF AUTOMATICALLY CHAMBERING A ROUND WHEN MAGAZINE INSERTED
Is it agreed that only the 9mm's suffer from malfunctions when auto-forwarding? My .40 auto-forwards reliably but I don't use it.
WHY does the M&P FTF and/or close on an empty chamber?
Is the slide starting forward before the mag is fully inserted?
Seems like this could cause either case of the HPs getting hung up on the bottom of the feed ramp and the slide to missing the case rim entirely.
I believe it is an issue with the magazine which allows the top round to nose-dive as it is being inserted which is causing the malfunctions.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-15-12, 19:32
And all of this could have been averted if SW bent the slide stop correctly?
What is it with handguns that make the perfect one so elusive? Makes me want to stick with my P7 since it will continue tomrun with major breakages.
StrikerFired
01-15-12, 20:33
Doug, please stop making sense of all these things and just figure out a fix for this in the shop and have some Ogre we know test it out. I've got some work for you too, will bump you on MGO for the details!
I think most of the semi-auto pistols I've ever owned have done this.
-.45 ACP HK USP
-.40 G23
-9mm G19
-9mm G17
-9mm M&P FS
-9mm Sig 228
My 1911s are the only ones that have never done it.
I have about 15K rounds on one M&P and it has auto-forwarded 2 or 3 times.
I have complaints about much more important things in this world.:laugh:
A true fix would be to change the angle of the interface surfaces so they lock together. Although this will also make releasing the slide by pushing down on the slide catch nearly impossible for those that employ this method.
From the left side looking at the slide catch it is slightly like this "\" and would need to be changed to this "/".
:D
He's right about changing the angle on the slide stop.
I don't think it has to be so interlocked as to "make releasing the slide by pushing down on the slide catch nearly impossible for those that employ this method".
It looks to me as if S&W needed to use the angle that they have now so the right side of the lever will still function. Once you start to adjust it and make the lever more resistant to auto-forwarding, the right side lever might cease to be useful for releasing the slide when its locked open.
If you never use the right side lever, adjust the left side lock angle as you see fit.
Yes, most modern polymer pistols will auto-forward if the magazines are inserted in a certain manner, that has long been established.
The specific issue with the M&P 9mm platform in my experience has been that when the auto-forward occurs with hollow point ammo it can also cause a failure to feed malfunction. Either the nose of the hollow point round gets jammed-up against the bottom of the feed ramp or the slide with travel forward into battery without chambering a round.
Anyone heard feedback from S&W on this?
The problem comes when it does not drop forward when you expect it to.
Pat
THIS.....
ALL of my M&Ps and ALL of my Glocks except the gen4 models do this. They have never failed to pick up a round. What sucks is when you are actually trying to practice reloading and you can't get the proper technique because of auto forwarding.
I liked the H&K P7M8 when you would squeeze the cocking handle it went forward.
I don't know how far they will go to fix that, given that a lot of competition shooters actively seek out that feature. All the glocks I've ever seen shot do it as well. At least with my FS9, sample size of 1, if I consistently firmly seat the magazine it will auto-forward correctly.
That said, I shoot round nose rounds for competition because I have seen the hollowpoints FTF especially on a dirty feedramp. I do recognize and acknowledge this is a potential training scar. I have had it auto-forward without picking up a round when playing around with it when I was experimenting with angles and degrees of force used to seat the magazine, but I have never personally barfed that up in competition.
saddlerocker
01-17-12, 17:44
Randys new APEX barrel is supposed to address the feeding problem when auto-forwarding with JHP I think.
I have an M&P9 and Im thinking of going to a gen 3 Glock as well.
I hate the grip angle and there ugly, but its an option.
The M&P is great ergonomically, very sexy looking, and very reliable.
However 3 very important issues are problems for it. (well mine at least)
Bad Trigger
Hit or Miss Accuracy
The ease of Auto-Forwarding, and the jam of JHP ammo when it does
So if you want to buy the APEX trigger kit and the new Bar-Sto barrel from APEX your $500 M&P is now $850, but works good finally.
Sorry, im just disappointed with my M&P9 right now....
And Glock screwed up the Gen 4's.......
Alaskapopo
01-17-12, 17:56
Randys new APEX barrel is supposed to address the feeding problem when auto-forwarding with JHP I think.
I have an M&P9 and Im thinking of going to a gen 3 Glock as well.
I hate the grip angle and there ugly, but its an option.
The M&P is great ergonomically, very sexy looking, and very reliable.
However 3 very important issues are problems for it. (well mine at least)
Bad Trigger
Hit or Miss Accuracy
The ease of Auto-Forwarding, and the jam of JHP ammo when it does
So if you want to buy the APEX trigger kit and the new Bar-Sto barrel from APEX your $500 M&P is now $850, but works good finally.
Sorry, im just disappointed with my M&P9 right now....
And Glock screwed up the Gen 4's.......
My Gen 4 Glock 17 is not screwed up and the grip angle and texture is far better than my gen 3 Glock 17.
Pat
Randys new APEX barrel is supposed to address the feeding problem when auto-forwarding with JHP I think.
I have an M&P9 and Im thinking of going to a gen 3 Glock as well.
I hate the grip angle and there ugly, but its an option.
The M&P is great ergonomically, very sexy looking, and very reliable.
However 3 very important issues are problems for it. (well mine at least)
Bad Trigger
Hit or Miss Accuracy
The ease of Auto-Forwarding, and the jam of JHP ammo when it does
So if you want to buy the APEX trigger kit and the new Bar-Sto barrel from APEX your $500 M&P is now $850, but works good finally.
Sorry, im just disappointed with my M&P9 right now....
And Glock screwed up the Gen 4's.......
i've never had a ftf on any of my 3 m&p's from auto feed? either from jhp or fmj? granted i've only run one box of jhp through my vtac 9mm(the only 9mm model i have) and so far its been great. it took 100+ rounds before it didnt take excessive effort to release the slide but after that it was great. is randy going to have a black option available on the new barrel?(i'd hate to have to pay extra to have it done locally after as much as the dang thing is already). and i agree the triggers do suck. i really want to send my vtac to bowie for an lx trigger job, i just dont want to be without it for two dang months !
If the slide stop tab is not engaging the slide notch fully, try the fix in the original post. Also, the mags have gone through updated follower generations, so if you have older mags, get some newer followers.
If the sst is engaging the slide notch and it still autoforwards, roughen the engagement surfaces with some sandpaper.
If the slide stop tab is not engaging the slide notch fully, try the fix in the original post. Also, the mags have gone through updated follower generations, so if you have older mags, get some newer followers.
If the sst is engaging the slide notch and it still autoforwards, roughen the engagement surfaces with some sandpaper.
I do believe I have owned every revision on the followers/magazines that S&W made for the M&P9. They all did the same thing when an auto-forward happened with hollow-point ammo. Failure to feed.
Anyone heard feedback from S&W on this?
Yes, I called Smith about replacing a mag follower that had shattered and asked them about this issue. The rep said this was a feature of the pistol to speed up reloads under tactical conditions. No kidding. Not knocking S&W and I choke this reponse up to the guy blowing smoke up my butt and hope this isn't what he was told to say. It is interesting to hear from others what the Smith & Wesson phone reps have in response to the issue of 'auto-forwarding'. It seems to vary from call to call.
-Jax
Yes, I called Smith about replacing a mag follower that had shattered and asked them about this issue. The rep said this was a feature of the pistol to speed up reloads under tactical conditions. No kidding. Not knocking S&W and I choke this reponse up to the guy blowing smoke up my butt and hope this isn't what he was told to say. It is interesting to hear from others what the Smith & Wesson phone reps have in response to the issue of 'auto-forwarding'. It seems to vary from call to call.
-Jax
One would think that as big a company that S&W is, They could afford to take more than 2 minutes to train their CS people who answer the phone..Pretty sad, really..My experience's with S&W's CS were mixed, one time I got a total doofus, the next time,I got someone who knew exactly what I was talking about..I think a day or two of product training before pushing a phone in front of them, would cure alot of that...
One would think that as big a company that S&W is, They could afford to take more than 2 minutes to train their CS people who answer the phone..Pretty sad, really..My experience's with S&W's CS were mixed, one time I got a total doofus, the next time,I got someone who knew exactly what I was talking about..I think a day or two of product training before pushing a phone in front of them, would cure alot of that...
Maybe it was some other "Joe" answering the phone while the real rep took a break (hopefully)
sniperfrog
01-18-12, 10:07
Yes, I called Smith about replacing a mag follower that had shattered and asked them about this issue. The rep said this was a feature of the pistol to speed up reloads under tactical conditions. No kidding. Not knocking S&W and I choke this reponse up to the guy blowing smoke up my butt and hope this isn't what he was told to say. It is interesting to hear from others what the Smith & Wesson phone reps have in response to the issue of 'auto-forwarding'. It seems to vary from call to call.
-Jax
That's pretty funny. I had a problem with my slide stop being too hard too press. The gun didn't auto forward but I also could not press the slide stop without using both thumbs. When I called S&W the guy told me: "We believe you should grab the slide and pull it back when doing mag changes to drop the slide". According to him, that's why the slide stop was so hard to press, because "it's a stop, not a release". His words not mine.
Seams like they have several contradicting responses based on your issue.
Now they still fixed the gun for free. No issues with autoforwarding and the stop/release is easy to press.
Does the new Bar-Sto M&P 9mm barrels feedramp dimensions help with or eliminate the feeding problem when auto-forwarding with JHP ammo ? Also, does the Bar-Sto M&P barrels use a tighter match chamber and does the tighter fitted barrels sacrifice (any) reliability when dirty over the factory barrels ?
Not knocking S&W and I choke this reponse up to the guy blowing smoke up my butt and hope this isn't what he was told to say. It is interesting to hear from others what the Smith & Wesson phone reps have in response to the issue of 'auto-forwarding'. It seems to vary from call to call.
That's part of what can be so frustrating to folks. I know that I can usually reconcile myself to a given circumstance if I have a decent lock on the reasons behind it. Whether it's finding a work-around, sucking it up, or deciding that it's something I'm unwilling to put up with, it's nearly always better to KNOW.
You call up three different folks at S&W to ask about what the color-coding on their magazine springs means, you'll get 4 different answers, because the last cat will bother to admit he's not sure and will present you with two different possibilities, each of which differ from what the first two cats told you. Always annoying, when the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, regardless of the subject.
Regarding the Apex/Bar-Sto collaboration, by all that's been posted, the focus of effort is to mitigate/eliminate the early-unlocking aspect that can create the accuracy quirks found in the 9mm barrels (which mine has; past 15yd, stuff gets weird). Worth re-reading; I know I'm gonna, now.
We ran M&P 9's in the academy and my hatred of the pistol started there. This issue was one of many reasons I disliked it, the auto-forwarding issue when I inserted a mag with anything more than loving tenderness wouldn't have been so bad except that EVERY time it happened it induced a FTF. Like clockwork. It wasn't unique to my gun either, at least a couple other people had the same issue.
At least from what I understand now it's not as prevalent as it was in earlier models.
My experience:
Auto forward has been a rare occurrence, the gun never failed to chamber the rnd when it did, and I train at all times fully expecting the need to do it myself and practice that at all times. The rare times auto forward has occurred, I drove on and it didn't impact performance. If it happened often and or didn't chamber the rnd when it did, it would be a concern.
Some Glocks I have shot were auto forward O matics and the guys who owned them counted on it/expected it, which I pointed out could be a life costing training scar, and was generally ignored. :cool:
Guys who compete with Glocks I know seemed to prefer it for obvious reasons, and hopefully have muscle memory for it not happening on their CCW guns...:eek:
I am going to mirror what Will just said.
I am a strong advocate of the seat magazine aggressively and release the slide with my support hand as I move it up and get my firing grip.
If I seat the mag and the slide falls, oh well, my hand performs the same motion and I am ready to fire. If it doesn't fall on it's own, my hand is already performing the slide releasing function via the depressing of the slide lock.
I have been known to berate, chastise and embarrass any officer I catch performing the "spank the mag". I get very bent when this happens.
If your gun is jamming because of this, send it back and have he problem fixed, try a different slide lock, or have a known gunsmith take a look.
My 2 cents.
Dave
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