View Full Version : Knife Snobs Enlighten Me. $2300 for a Combat Knife?
Nightvisionary
01-14-12, 23:25
I know very little about knives other than my USMC Kabar and Gerber BMF have served me well for many years.
A friend of mine recently recieved a custom knife that he had been waiting on for nearly 18 months. It's a Jay Fisher Para Rescue Light combat knife.
From what I understand he chose a knife that was mostly crafted by an apprentice under Mr. Fishers supervision. By doing so he was able to get the knife with a shorter waiting period and somewhat cheaper than a 100% Jay Fisher made knife.
It's 440 stainless. He paid around $2300 for it. What is he getting for that kind of money?
Is my Kabar like an Olympic Arms AR and My buddies knife like a Noveske in terms of quality?
http://www.jayfisher.com/USAF_Pararescue_Knives.htm
http://www.jayfisher.com/_borders/PJLT-PJLTMicartaJ1.jpg
loganp0916
01-14-12, 23:44
IMHO, your buddy's insane...
But I would spend that on a firearm and some people would say the same about me so.............
To each his own I guess.
Pointy end goes in other guy. Anything that doesn't enhance how sharp the edge is, how durable the blade is, or how I can keep ahold of it is needless - $150 is where I top out for knives, that just seems ludicrous.
mkmckinley
01-15-12, 00:10
Your buddy waaaaay overpaid. $2300 for 440C? That's insane unless it has gold inlays and whatnot. And I won't even mention the wazoo blade profile. Most nice custom and semi custom knives can be had for well less than that. I've not seen a knife steel that performs better than what Busse Combat uses and their blades are less than $500, which I still consider a lot. Also I hope your buddy is a PJ. If he's some poser tell him he can use that knife to defend his virginity. Use the crap out of your Ka-Bar and don't worry about what your idiot friend does with his money.
Jay Cunningham
01-15-12, 00:14
$2300 for a knife?? hahahaha
I know knife retards that wouldn't pay that!
First off, 440 stainless is not uncommon or particularly difficult to work with. Second, this knife is not overly intricate or detailed, so I can't imagine the number of hours to craft it warrant the price either. As a matter of fact, the areas where the bottom of the buttcap and guard meet the inlay material don't look particularly well finished. Third, if it doesn't carry some certificate of authenticity as a Jay Fisher crafted knife, is it really a Jay Fisher knife, or the apprentice's?
To recap, common materials, no intricate workmanship, not made by the master = not worth near what was paid for it. If I'm going to pay more than a couple hundred bucks for a knife, I would require the maker to explain exactly why it costs that much. In this case, it appears that coming from the shop of Jay Fisher is the only explanation for the price, and that's not a good explanation at all. :(
I seen a knife not long ago for 1,300 and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
I have a Blackhawk that I have been using for over a year now, I use the shit out of it an sharpen it once in awhile.
I honestly don't see how you can spend that much on a knife.
That's a complete upper receiver or a Colt 6920!
Knives aren't that cool...not for that price
I used to have a pretty extensive collection of knives. All types of folders, autos, fixed blades, and some were custom. One of them is handcrafted from 154CM, has a Kukri style blade, is razor sharp and also has serrations on the top.
I think I paid about 200.00 for it and it's worth about 275.00. From what I have seen of that knife I don't see how 2300.00 is realistically practical. But, hey....
Thomas M-4
01-15-12, 02:44
$2300 for a knife?? hahahaha
I know knife retards that wouldn't pay that!
Pretty much the same consent.
I know a real knife retard and he would never shell out that much.
for $2300 .Yes it looks good for that same price range you could be looking at a Genuine SS dagger that has actually history. Its a knife a basic utilitarian tool.[Think about this].
lethal dose
01-15-12, 05:34
Not that I think the usmc kbar is all that... but does he realize he could've bought over forty (40) kbars for the same price? Reality check.
Unless your friend is a collector and had to have a Fisher knife, the cost to utility ratio would prevent me from even considering to buy it. But then, a collector would not want a knife made mainly by an apprentice.
What reasons did your friend give for shelling out the $$ for that knife?
They guy didn't pay that money to get a good knife, he paid for the name and the exclusivity, and the ability to say that he has a $2300 knife. What's the big deal? It may not be anyone else's cup of tea, but who are we to judge how he spends his money?
How much would you pay for Michael Jackson's sequined glove? I wouldn't pay anything, but somebody paid $350,000 for it.
misanthropist
01-15-12, 14:35
It's definitely not buying function. If a guy wants to buy a piece of art, that's totally up to him, of course...but I'm not much interested in pretending that a guy who bought a piece of art ALSO bought a superior tool.
A Van Gogh would be cool to have...but I wouldn't tell people that the canvas it was on was a better bullet stopper than kevlar, because that would make me retarded.
So it really just depends on what your friend's reasoning was on buying the knife. If he thinks it is better at cutting than a $10 mora...buy him a pair of velcro shoes.
Nightvisionary
01-15-12, 15:00
Unless your friend is a collector and had to have a Fisher knife, the cost to utility ratio would prevent me from even considering to buy it. But then, a collector would not want a knife made mainly by an apprentice.
What reasons did your friend give for shelling out the $$ for that knife?
He told me it was all hand crafted under collaboration with Fisher who is one of the great custom knife makers.
Nightvisionary
01-15-12, 15:05
Your buddy waaaaay overpaid. $2300 for 440C? That's insane unless it has gold inlays and whatnot. And I won't even mention the wazoo blade profile. Most nice custom and semi custom knives can be had for well less than that. I've not seen a knife steel that performs better than what Busse Combat uses and their blades are less than $500, which I still consider a lot. Also I hope your buddy is a PJ. If he's some poser tell him he can use that knife to defend his virginity. Use the crap out of your Ka-Bar and don't worry about what your idiot friend does with his money.
That's what I thought. No gold inlays or anything special. Im very happy with the 440C blade in my Kershaw blur but I paid $34 for it.
I would expect something much more exotic and durable if I was spending even $200.
Shoulda just got a Noveske...
He told me it was all hand crafted under collaboration with Fisher who is one of the great custom knife makers.
Which is a terrible reason to buy a knife. I feel pretty confident in predicting that it will never be worth what was paid for it.
I know very little about knives other than my USMC Kabar and Gerber BMF have served me well for many years.
A friend of mine recently recieved a custom knife that he had been waiting on for nearly 18 months. It's a Jay Fisher Para Rescue Light combat knife.
From what I understand he chose a knife that was mostly crafted by an apprentice under Mr. Fishers supervision. By doing so he was able to get the knife with a shorter waiting period and somewhat cheaper than a 100% Jay Fisher made knife.
It's 440 stainless. He paid around $2300 for it. What is he getting for that kind of money?
Is my Kabar like an Olympic Arms AR and My buddies knife like a Noveske in terms of quality?
Made from 440? No, not really. A custom made knife made of highest quality materials, from a talented knife maker etc, etc, is a joy to own, but your buddy got what's called "ripped the fu&% off" :D
One can own true hand built knives made of higher quality steel made by well respected knife makers for a fraction of that cost. For example, the Oberland 03, built by Crusader Forge, each built by one guy and custom:
Blade Material: CPM S30V
Blade Thickness: 0.250"
Blade Length: 5.50"-6.25"
Total Length: 11.25"
Sheath: Custom
Price: $ 445.00
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/clip_image001_006.gif
I don't know if you'd call it pretty or not, but it's built like a tank and made for hard use.
Reagans Rascals
01-15-12, 19:06
It only has one use..... to stab or cut things..... there isn't $2300 worth of improvements to be made to cutting or stabbing things.... that is... unless its a little chainsaw with teeth made from unobtainium and a straw in the handle....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsyxH5mrOx4
the absolute most expensive knife I've ever considered purchasing... would be the Neil Roberts Warrior Knife by Chris Reeve.... but that's more because of what it stands for...
in a close second and third would be the Tom Brown Tracker Knife and the Paul Basal Shadow...
none of the knives I listed being over $350...
your friend got butt raped imo..
Should have just tracked down a Busse or a Randall.
Gutshot John
01-15-12, 19:12
I'm a knife snob but $2300 for 440 is just stooopid.
You can buy a real samurai sword for about that.
patriot_man
01-15-12, 19:15
:blink: I've had my fair share of pricey knives but $2300 is too much for me.
Madness...Absolute, total madness...Your buddy, he belongs on a ward somewhere...
I guess he's one that practices you can't take it ($$$$) with you literally. I think he will probably have a rude awakening if he ever decides to sell it.
Nightvisionary
01-16-12, 02:05
Should have just tracked down a Busse or a Randall.
He already had a Randall. I think he waited 3+ years for that one.
VooDoo6Actual
01-16-12, 09:52
Imo,
I would have bought a Kabar, Busse or Randall & used the balance towards a SCAR 17S.
But each to their own..
He already had a Randall. I think he waited 3+ years for that one.
He has them all, or just one model? He could have bought six or seven more Randall models to augment his collection.
No idea, it's lost on me for some reason. Unless he was a PJ.
Two words......
FLUCK THAT !!!
Two words......
FLUCK THAT !!!
And a hearty amen to that!
Good grief.
Well, at least he's doing his part to stimulate the economy.:p
I don't have anything more expensive than $200.00 but do have friends with high end knives. Whatever floats his boat if he can afford it.
I would be willing to bet that the knife in question is not simply 440stainless. That seems hard to believe.
Any steel guys know what this is from the site?
440C High Chromium Martensitic Stainless Tool Steel, Hardened and Tempered to Rockwell C58,
I got a Strider as a gift after I received my commission and I thought that was a hell of a price to pay for a knife. I think the model was around $400.
I own a Tom Brown Jr Tracker but you get a sweet deal when you get it from Tom at his course.
Knives are like jewelry. Your buddy just bought a Rolex instead of a Casio. If it makes him happy, more power to him.
Does your buddy plan on using this, or is it only viewed (by him as a collectable?
Can't imagine a PJ bringing that to the shop.:sarcastic:
He could have bought a whole lot of training ammo for $2300.
How does a $2300 cut/stab/slice/incision differ from a $230 cut/stab/slice/incision?
SWATcop556
01-19-12, 11:23
Everyone is allowed to spend their money as they see fit. If your buddy was a PJ and had the scratch then it's his to do with as he wishes.
That being said if I'm forking out $2300 for a knife it had better come with an all expense paid night with Natalie Portman in the mood for anything I want and a signed letter of consent from my wife that I won't be executed upon returning home.
Littlelebowski
01-19-12, 11:41
Everyone is allowed to spend their money as they see fit. If your buddy was a PJ and had the scratch then it's his to do with as he wishes.
That being said if I'm forking out $2300 for a knife it had better come with an all expense paid night with Natalie Portman in the mood for anything I want and a signed letter of consent from my wife that I won't be executed upon returning home.
That was beautiful. As in almost as good as the crash of a Prius with an Obama sticker on it.
I can't even begin to wrap my head around a $2300 knife. In my universe the very fact that it is a knife negates any and all possibility that it could be worth $2300.
Here is a link to what your buddy should have looked at when thinking of spending $2300.
http://kyleroyerknives.com/bowies-fighters/
For that amount of money, I woulda bought a Bob Loveless knife. Now Loveless is famous, Fisher, who dat? But even the Loveless knives in the last 10 years have become out of reach to all but some very rich collectors. When a famous, in his lifetime, knife maker dies, it means you have a finite number of knives in circulation. The Randall Made Knives are great mid-range collector knives with great resale value.
Your friend has more money than sense. The internet would have saved him the embarrassment.
thopkins22
01-19-12, 12:14
Here is a link to what your buddy should have looked at when thinking of spending $2300.
http://kyleroyerknives.com/bowies-fighters/
For that amount of money, I woulda bought a Bob Loveless knife. Now Loveless is famous, Fisher, who dat?
I don't want any of them...but those I can understand being that expensive. Makes the OP's friend's knife look absolutely silly.
Everyone is allowed to spend their money as they see fit. If your buddy was a PJ and had the scratch then it's his to do with as he wishes.
That being said if I'm forking out $2300 for a knife it had better come with an all expense paid night with Natalie Portman in the mood for anything I want and a signed letter of consent from my wife that I won't be executed upon returning home.
/thread
Well played, sir.
Moose-Knuckle
01-19-12, 17:39
Diminishing marginal return.
I am a knife nut lately and $2300 seems absolutely retarded to me. That money gets you details in the decorative sense. For a fighting knife it gets you...ripped off. That knife looks like maybe $300
I am a knife nut lately and $2300 seems absolutely retarded to me. That money gets you details in the decorative sense. For a fighting knife it gets you...ripped off. That knife looks like maybe $300
I'll go $400 :D
C'mon guys! It has a really sweet plaque that's removable for those covert missions! Jeez!
I bought a Benchmade Infidel for about $300 once. I had buyers remorse. I can't imagine how bad I would feel if I spent $2300.
Knives are like jewelry. Your buddy just bought a Rolex instead of a Casio. If it makes him happy, more power to him.
This. Custom knives always strike me funny in that way: like some other things including jewelry and some types of art, they can have an extreme and even unrealistically high value to insiders who value them (depending on things like who made it, is it a special run, etc.). To me, sometimes these prices (and this knife is a case in point) for "works of art" seem totally disconnected from reality. Just like collector firearms, I have no problem with it if somebody has the scratch to buy stuff like this and enjoys it. More power to them!
For myself, I like knives and have a reasonably good set, but all my knives are users. I view them as tools and they all get used, except for that goofy NRA gold-colored bowie knife that I got for becoming a lifetime member. :lol: That's the only knife I have that's for hanging on the wall.
My "most-prized" knife is a beat-up Benchmade Mini-Rukus in s30v that is my EDC. I like it because it works and it's reliable. I don't care what it cost or really even how it looks. Same logic applies to a new Swamp Rat Ratmandu that I just bought: it'll be a great camp and hunting knife, and great for the go-bag. But it has no fancy stainless steel, cost a grand total of $138, and really isn't especially cool or "tactical" looking. But it works, and the SR-101 steel in it is some serious hard-use steel that keeps a great edge, but is easy to field-sharpen. The most expensive knife I own is my ESEE Junglas, a 10" chopper than I paid $155 for. Works great, and again, for me it's just a tool, not something to fall in love with or spend mega $$$ for.
Belmont31R
01-25-12, 18:38
This. Custom knives always strike me funny in that way:
Im into tobacco pipes, and value varies greatly based on who made it. Its funny how names can float around, and just like guns a person can make a ton of money in a few years because they suddenly become a name brand everyone has to have one of. Doesn't mean they are better in quality just people get all hot and wet down under by some designer name.
In pipes, and other such things I like to find the guys who don't have the name but still put out just as quality of stuff.
Just the way the world works. Fashion, be it guns, clothes, knives, ect. Is really a boom and bust industry. Some make a lot of money in 1-5 years then die out and VERY FEW make it long term. Quality is kind of separated from this. Sometimes quality is not what the market demands at the time but more of extreme style or something "new".
Shoulda just got a Noveske...
Totally agree.
Im into tobacco pipes, and value varies greatly based on who made it. Its funny how names can float around, and just like guns a person can make a ton of money in a few years because they suddenly become a name brand everyone has to have one of. Doesn't mean they are better in quality just people get all hot and wet down under by some designer name.
In pipes, and other such things I like to find the guys who don't have the name but still put out just as quality of stuff.
Just the way the world works. Fashion, be it guns, clothes, knives, ect. Is really a boom and bust industry. Some make a lot of money in 1-5 years then die out and VERY FEW make it long term. Quality is kind of separated from this. Sometimes quality is not what the market demands at the time but more of extreme style or something "new".
Well put. I recently saw a knife that I thought I had to have. Cool EDC knife, very highly regarded and simple... steel and para cord. Today I found out what they are going for and about choked on my tongue. A lot of that has to do with name and the people around this particular knife, but I just don't see it. To each his own i guess.
Your buddy can do what he wants with his money. But if he had showed up my old team room with that on his web gear, it would have called his professional judgement seriously into doubt.
And that's before we found out about the price.
Okie John
Cesiumsponge
01-26-12, 21:42
I am a part-time knife snob. Would I buy a $2300 blade if I had the means to? Yes, and I have. Would I buy a $2300 tactical blade? Absolutely not. Tactical blades by nature are utilitarian and don't have lipstick. Tactical knife companies advertise their wares by subjecting their products to ridiculous torture tests to prove their toughness. There is simply nothing in my mind that justifies the inflated cost past a certain point for a tactical blade. Nowadays, everyone and their brother make a tactical blade...I see a lot of poor designs lacking in proper edge geometry, blade geometry, balance, etc. You can just laser cut blanks out of plate stock, grind a sharp edge, and sell it as tacticool. I suppose it's possible folks will start passing off custom tactical blades as art knives "because art is subjective", but I hope not. Last thing I want to see is some Andy Warhol wiseguy passing off cans of soup as an "art knife".
Most generic cutlery is made with 440A or 440B, a step above the 420 stainless for drawer junk (think your cheapo $50 Macy's kitchen knife sets). Assuming it's 440C, that makes it one step above the aforementioned steels, but not much. As a knife steel, it's mediocre at best, similar to AUS-8 or other mid-grade steels. Knife snobs and even knife hobbyists wouldn't bother with 440C.
I don't know why a custom knife maker would use 440C as his medium, then charge $2300. You'll be hard pressed to find many reputable knife companies selling knives using 440C over the $50 mark. Most better companies don't even have 440C in their lineup. High grade steels like S30V, S60V, VG-10, D2, 154CM, ZDP-189, M4, etc are far superior (even cutting-edge) steels with fantastic properties in hardness, toughness, durability, and sharpness. They don't cost that much more at all. Benchmade and Spyderco have all sorts of entry-level lines starting at $50-75 which give you those, and unless you're paying a premium for "the name", they top out at $150-300 at best if you're looking for a "user blade" (something that doesn't hang out in a glass case), a bit more if you're setting up a dress knife like a Chris Reeves. mkmckinley mentioned Busse, they use INFI, tough stuff. I have a few and they're expensive, but they're indestructible.
There really isn't a tacticool knife generally worth more than $300-400 in my opinion because the labor simply isn't in it to justify the price. Once a knife goes north of $400, you're getting into damascus steels, or a lot of intricate handwork in an art knife. $2300 will get you a hell of an art knife with things like exotic titanium damascus, wooly mammoth ivory, rubies, gold, intricate filework, mosaic damascus, and hand-sculpted metal...something that actually has some pedigree when it comes to craftsmanship.
About 5 years ago, $2000 got me a mumei wakizashi (short sword, little brother to the katana) in fresh full polish, forged during the Japanese Enpo period (late 1670's), with NTHK papers (one of several groups that certify the authenticity of Japanese antique blades). That poor swordsmith smashed a lump of steel by candlelight repeatedly for endless nights until it turned into a gem, survived for over 300 years and has found it's way into my care. $2000 was a steal.
I spent about the same on a Michael Bell cable-forged katana years ago before they got big, a modern swordsmith that does a Japanese-influenced blade. In either case, incredible number of hours forging, hand grinding on wet stones, and hand polishing to very specific geometry guidelines to end up with a differentially heat-treated blade with hundreds of layers of folded steel and crisp edges. Some folks might think I'm crazy to pay that kind of money, and maybe I am, but those two examples took a lot of blood and sweat to create.
A Rolex is a fine piece of jewelry. They make their own movements. But when a knifemaker charges $2300 for something made out of 440C, you're paying Rolex prices for Invicta.
Definitely not worth the $2300. By an apprentice???? How much was the full priced version?
What's so special about that odd looking scabbard/sheath?
So is he using the knife, displaying it, or just locking it up in a safe? Does he have other high priced low grade items, as well. I'm sure this wasn't the first, nor the last for him.
iPad/Tapatalk
mkmckinley
01-28-12, 06:52
...About 5 years ago, $2000 got me a mumei wakizashi (short sword, little brother to the katana) in fresh full polish, forged during the Japanese Enpo period (late 1670's), with NTHK papers (one of several groups that certify the authenticity of Japanese antique blades). That poor swordsmith smashed a lump of steel by candlelight repeatedly for endless nights until it turned into a gem, survived for over 300 years and has found it's way into my care. $2000 was a steal.
I spent about the same on a Michael Bell cable-forged katana years ago before they got big, a modern swordsmith that does a Japanese-influenced blade. In either case, incredible number of hours forging, hand grinding on wet stones, and hand polishing to very specific geometry guidelines to end up with a differentially heat-treated blade with hundreds of layers of folded steel and crisp edges. Some folks might think I'm crazy to pay that kind of money, and maybe I am, but those two examples took a lot of blood and sweat to create.
Great post. Not to mention who wants to go out and use/abuse/jump/lose a $2300 tool when a $100-$500 tool would have done just as well if not better.
Any chance you could post some pictures of the afore mentioned blades? It's torture reading what you have to say about them and not getting to have a look.
Ill stick to my ZT0350. For 2300 it had better come with a 21 year old hot asian chick who will cup your balls in the winter to keep them warm and blow you whenever you damn well want.
You can just laser cut blanks out of plate stock, grind a sharp edge, and sell it as tacticool.
And they do...your post was educational, useful, and dead on. Thanx! Rolex is a poor example as it's value is not all that subjective and a surprisingly good watch for the $$$, which can't be said for that knife, unless OP has his details wrong.
Going OT: Interestingly, the more I have learned about watches, the more I have actually come to respect Rolex; quite the opposite of what I had expected.
Cesiumsponge
01-28-12, 15:44
There are plenty of incredible examples if you Google images of "nihonto hamon" and my photos suck at capturing it without studio lighting. I'm also lazy because it involves a careful strip and cleaning with alcohol to remove protective oil or you can't see the grain. Each cleaning scratches the blade and repeated cleanings obscures the grain and requires a repolish, which is a very expensive venture on a years-long waiting list. It also removes metal so eventually you're going to punch through the hardened layer of steel into the soft core and the value of the sword is gone. And when you have it out...you want to oogle it for an hour. This is a "cheap" blade too...folks will pay six figures for a famous smith/school!
But here are some older photos I uploaded. None of that is acid etched to bring out the steel grain like all modern blades that look similar (save a few traditional smiths still in Japan). It's all hand filed, hand ground, and hand polished with progressively finer and different hardnesses of waterstones until it "pops out". The longer you stare, the more activity you can see in the steel. Little waves, streaks, humps and loops...it's artistry in pearlite and martensite.
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2491/4088181178_1f5c628591_o.jpghttps://farm3.staticflickr.com/2610/4087426789_649a2239b9_o.jpghttps://farm3.staticflickr.com/2664/4087429879_2a6530d2f6_o.jpghttps://farm3.staticflickr.com/2443/4087439445_f6acf92e1b_o.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2669/4088190334_084fc69aa5_o.jpghttps://farm3.staticflickr.com/2616/4088193840_3991bd6a09_o.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2559/4087450861_67614aa7c0_o.jpghttps://farm3.staticflickr.com/2617/4088177790_04087db7d5_o.jpg
The modern "inspired" katana isn't remotely as nice. I'll manhandle it more and doesn't have the nice, traditional polish so the lines of the geometry aren't nearly as crisp. I'll try to take a photo later on but my camera is on loan. It was forged from a piece of wire rope cabling and it looks damn cool. I don't fault anyone for spending money on whatever they want. I just quantified my opinion that $2300 for a tactical blade made out of 440C is crazy by my standards. I wouldn't hesitate to use a $2300 tool and abuse it. Many of my rifles cost much more than that, but they're that expensive for a justifiable reason. Some folks will say I'm damned nuts for paying $2000 for a piece of 300 year old steel that would shatter if you cut at the wrong angle and rusts if you so much as breathe on it. Maybe they're right too.
Devildog1988
02-12-12, 12:31
2300!!!! for a knife!!! Im so angry!! WTF!! Does your buddy not know what kind of rifle that will buy? someone else on here said, point end goes into the other guy. im in complete agreement. unless that knife can fight off an attacker while I go get my AR, and then get me a nice cool glass of water afterwards, 2300 is wayy too much.
IMHO the best hard use custom "combat knives" are made by Jim Behring owner of Treeman knives (http://www.treemanknives.com/). There are lesser knives that cost more money.- George
Battle*Hound
02-14-12, 18:34
It only has one use..... to stab or cut things..... there isn't $2300 worth of improvements to be made to cutting or stabbing things.... that is... unless its a little chainsaw with teeth made from unobtainium and a straw in the handle......
Too funny yet too true
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