midlength buffer?

[Terminator2003]

Just waiting for the rest of my parts to arrive, so I figured I would ask for some opinions on whether the buffer with be fine with my new build. I have a 14.5" lightweight middy upper (BCM), and since I have a stripped lower (Spikes), I ordered the MOE complete lower build kit from PSA, which includes the milspec carbine buffer tube, spring, and (I think) "H" buffer. Will this upper function properly with the "H", or should I order a heavier weight buffer for it?

[Jay Cunningham]

Why do you think a heavier buffer would help the situation?

[ForTehNguyen]

its a carbine buffer in the lower build kits. The H and H2 buffers have an H or H2 printed on the buffer face. The PSA lower build kits I've bought dont have an H or H2 printed, so its a carbine buffer

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/palmetto-state-armory-carbine-buffer.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/palmetto-state-armory-h-heavy-buffer.html

[AZ-Renegade]

OP,

I wouldn't use anything heavier than an H buffer on you setup. I have a 14.5 mid-length and used an H2 for sometime. It ran great as long as the action was wet, but once it started to dry up it would short stroke [using 64 grain Speer].

I'm using the standard carbine buffer in mine for the time being.

[evo03]

I have the same upper as you and I have been running an H buffer. Works perfect with both 5.56 and .223

[evo03]

its a carbine buffer in the lower build kits. The H and H2 buffers have an H or H2 printed on the buffer face. The PSA lower build kits I've bought dont have an H or H2 printed, so its a carbine buffer

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/palmetto-state-armory-carbine-buffer.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/palmetto-state-armory-h-heavy-buffer.html

Both their standard and MOE parts kit include an H buffer according to their website
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/pistol-moe-lower-build-kit.html

[SteadyUp]

Why do you think a heavier buffer would help the situation?

I think when new(er) shooters see some of the more seasoned forum members talk about using heavier buffers (H2 and up) they think that their gun won't be reliable without a heavy buffer too. Meanwhile, any of "the chart" guns will more likely than not be dead nuts reliable as delivered, standard H buffer and all. My personal experience has been that the more I train, and the more I shoot, the more I realize that all the ****ing doodads and whizbang shit wasn't necessary to shoot well (groundbreaking discovery, I know...).

[ForTehNguyen]

Both their standard and MOE parts kit include an H buffer according to their website
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/pistol-moe-lower-build-kit.html

thats a pistol MOE kit, pistols need heavier buffers

[markm]

OP,

I wouldn't use anything heavier than an H buffer on you setup. I have a 14.5 mid-length and used an H2 for sometime. It ran great as long as the action was wet, but once it started to dry up it would short stroke [using 64 grain Speer].

I'm using the standard carbine buffer in mine for the time being.

Agreed on the H being the max.

[evo03]

thats a pistol MOE kit, pistols need heavier buffers

You are correct, I didn't even see that it said pistol. All the other kits don't tell you what buffer they have. Just look at what you got. Like mentioned earlier it will have an H on it. I would try out the buffer that came with your kit and maybe pick up an H and see which one works better for you.

[Terminator2003]

Thanks for the help so far. I haven't received the parts yet, so I'm not positive if it's just the standard carbine weight, or the "H" that will be included. I have read (as someone else mentioned) where a lot of more experienced guys were recommending heavier buffers, which was why I am asking. I obviously can't try it out yet to check function with the supplied buffer since I don't have all the parts to complete the rifle as of yet. I was just seeing what the consensus was regarding the buffer weight for the middy so that I could order a heavier one (if necessary) without delaying the build any further.;) I will see if I can find the link to the exact kit I ordered and see which buffer it was. I believe it was the "H", just not positive.

[Terminator2003]

Ok, I just went to their site, and it has changed since I ordered. Now there doesn't seem to be as much descriptive info on the individual components as there was. Previously, as I mentioned, I think it was listed as an "H" buffer, but going by this new description on the site, I would assume it was standard carbine weight. Guess it will be a mystery until it actually arrives. If they did send me the standard carbine buffer, would that be too light for proper function, or will it work until I could get an "H"?

here is the kit I ordered:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/build-kits/moe-lower-build-kit.html

[fdxpilot]

For future reference, you can request an H buffer in the remarks section of the order page, and they will include one, but will add the appropriate price difference.

[Terminator2003]

For future reference, you can request an H buffer in the remarks section of the order page, and they will include one, but will add the appropriate price difference.

Thanks. I wish I had known that when I placed the order. I actually did via mail after printing out my "shopping cart", so I'm not sure how it would work. They are tough to reach as they never answer the phone, and rarely respond to emails unfortunately, so I couldn't even ask questions.

[BUBBAGUNS]

I have a 16" midlength upper. I have a H2 buffer I use. It just happened to be what IHad in my parts box when I built it. It has been very reliable with everything.

[panzerr]

Noveske uses a "H" buffer on their 14.5 middies

[Tucker]

I just received a couple of those same LBKs and they came with carbine buffers.

In the description they note that the kit includes their "Mil spec buffer tube assembly", which is here (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/complete-6-position-mil-spec-buffer-tube-assembly.html), and is described as having the carbine buffer.

[Terminator2003]

Thanks guys, it looks as though the consensus is that the "H" is what I will need to get, and that most likely my lpk will have the carbine one. Hopefully it will work at least until I can pick up the "H".

[panzerr]

Thanks guys, it looks as though the consensus is that the "H" is what I will need to get, and that most likely my lpk will have the carbine one. Hopefully it will work at least until I can pick up the "H".

A carbine buffer will work, it just won't be as optimal.

[Terminator2003]

A carbine buffer will work, it just won't be as optimal.

That's good to know. I guess I will just run it for awhile to see how it works, and in the meantime try to find an H also.

[Robb Jensen]

Just waiting for the rest of my parts to arrive, so I figured I would ask for some opinions on whether the buffer with be fine with my new build. I have a 14.5" lightweight middy upper (BCM), and since I have a stripped lower (Spikes), I ordered the MOE complete lower build kit from PSA, which includes the milspec carbine buffer tube, spring, and (I think) "H" buffer. Will this upper function properly with the "H", or should I order a heavier weight buffer for it?

The BCM Midlengths (14.5" and 16") is designed to work with CAR or H buffers.

[Terminator2003]

The BCM Midlengths (14.5" and 16") is designed to work with CAR or H buffers.

That is good to know, thanks! Looks like I may be fine after all. I guess the buffer weight only becomes a big issue with certain types of ammo, so hopefully I will get lucky since most of my shooting will be with 55 grain target ammo, and maybe some m855 to see how that runs.

[Robb Jensen]

That is good to know, thanks! Looks like I may be fine after all. I guess the buffer weight only becomes a big issue with certain types of ammo, so hopefully I will get lucky since most of my shooting will be with 55 grain target ammo, and maybe some m855 to see how that runs.

If it doesn't run on .223Rem pressure ammo it's not a gun problem, the BCM is chambered in 5.56mm NATO.
Just like a Toyota FJ cruiser is designed for 92/93 octane gas per the owners manual. It doesn't run well on 87 octane because it wasn't designed that way. The non-Milspec ARs with large non-Milspec size gas ports are for those guys that want to use .223Rem and 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo. This is fine if you'll only shoot a small amount of 5.56mm NATO ammo. There's no free lunch. NATO pressure ammo through a large gas port causes more problems than shooting it through its proper sized gas port.

[Jay Cunningham]

If it doesn't run on .223Rem pressure ammo it's not a gun problem, the BCM is chambered in 5.56mm NATO.
Just like a Toyota FJ cruiser is designed for 92/93 octane gas per the owners manual. It doesn't run well on 87 octane because it wasn't designed that way. The non-Milspec ARs with large non-Milspec size gas ports are for those guys that want to use .223Rem and 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo. This is fine if you'll only shoot a small amount of 5.56mm NATO ammo. There's no free lunch. NATO pressure ammo through a large gas port causes more problems than shooting it through its proper sized gas port.

Great post Robb! Sanity!

[Terminator2003]

If it doesn't run on .223Rem pressure ammo it's not a gun problem, the BCM is chambered in 5.56mm NATO.
Just like a Toyota FJ cruiser is designed for 92/93 octane gas per the owners manual. It doesn't run well on 87 octane because it wasn't designed that way. The non-Milspec ARs with large non-Milspec size gas ports are for those guys that want to use .223Rem and 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo. This is fine if you'll only shoot a small amount of 5.56mm NATO ammo. There's no free lunch. NATO pressure ammo through a large gas port causes more problems than shooting it through its proper sized gas port.

So, are you suggesting that I may have issues running the lower pressure .223 ammo because my BCM is chambered for the 5.56? And if that's the case wouldn't running a buffer weight (either higher or lower depending on the situation) help to mitigate that? In my example where I already have the milspec BCM setup, and will likely be using a lot of .223 target ammo with it, are you suggesting that the standard carbine buffer will be under-weighted to cycle properly? I thought I was all set until your post, which now leaves me with more questions/concerns. I should be receiving the parts this week sometime according to PSA, so it won't be for at least another week before I will even get a chance to test anything.

[nml]

No your carbine buffer is "better" than a heavier one in that case.

He was just getting more in depth, which for some people is not always best. You are "all set" assuming you have someone else to assemble your gun for you.

[BUBBAGUNS]

No your carbine buffer is "better" than a heavier one in that case.

He was just getting more in depth, which for some people is not always best. You are "all set" assuming you have someone else to assemble your gun for you.

What no faith. We all did it a first time.

[Terminator2003]

No your carbine buffer is "better" than a heavier one in that case.

He was just getting more in depth, which for some people is not always best. You are "all set" assuming you have someone else to assemble your gun for you.

Ok, thanks. I just don't have a large amount of experience in using different buffer weights, and any of the ARs that I have used have all been carbine length gas. This is my first build, and it happens to be midlength, so I want to make sure I get all of the right components for it. Assembling it is not an issue, as I have spent most of my career as a machine designer/prototype machinist, so I know a thing or two about how mechanical things go together.;) My background does make me over think things sometimes, though, which is why I asked more questions after that "more in depth" post. I'm always eager to learn more, though, so it wasn't necessarily a bad thing.:D

[Terminator2003]

What no faith. We all did it a first time.

Thanks. I'm just trying to learn all I can about this platform, the assembly part is pretty basic stuff by comparison.:D

[Terminator2003]

What no faith. We all did it a first time.

Thanks. I'm just trying to learn all I can about this platform, the assembly part is pretty basic stuff by comparison.:D

[nml]

Sorry did not know background, reading threads quickly sometimes is hard to tell if users have any experience w platform first (shooting, cleaning). I can put them together but consider myself in the shooting/cleaning camp so my explanation below is just that:

If your bolt carrier group (BCG) is not being allowed to move rearward enough, i.e. short stroke, do you want more or less weight in its path? I think these buffer weights are from Robb:
Carbine 2.9 oz -> 3 steel weights
H buffer 3.8 oz -> 1 tungsten weight
H2 buffer 4.6 oz -> 2 tungsten weights
H3 buffer 5.6 oz -> 3 tungsten weights

(There are always other variables at play) but hopefully you can visualize how the weight of the buffer might change the rearward motion of the BCG.

One such variable is ammo. There will be more force moving the BCG rearward using 5.56 compared to commercial 223 loadings. This is what Robb was saying. I would like to give you exact chamber pressure figures for live rounds instead of saying "trust me" but sorry idk them.

Hope this helps more than my previous post.

[Terminator2003]

Sorry did not know background, reading threads quickly sometimes is hard to tell if users have any experience w platform first (shooting, cleaning). I can put them together but consider myself in the shooting/cleaning camp so my explanation below is just that:

If your bolt carrier group (BCG) is not being allowed to move rearward enough, i.e. short stroke, do you want more or less weight in its path? I think these buffer weights are from Robb:
Carbine 2.9 oz -> 3 steel weights
H buffer 3.8 oz -> 1 tungsten weight
H2 buffer 4.6 oz -> 2 tungsten weights
H3 buffer 5.6 oz -> 3 tungsten weights

(There are always other variables at play) but hopefully you can visualize how the weight of the buffer might change the rearward motion of the BCG.

One such variable is ammo. There will be more force moving the BCG rearward using 5.56 compared to commercial 223 loadings. This is what Robb was saying. I would like to give you exact chamber pressure figures for live rounds instead of saying "trust me" but sorry idk them.

Hope this helps more than my previous post.

Yes, that actually helps a lot more with the visualization, thanks. For some reason, I was visualizing the action backwards. I was thinking that if the .223 round was causing the short stroke, that adding more mass to the buffer would assist the motion, but can see the error in my thought process now. From the way I understand it now, the heavier buffers actually are used to slow the action down. If that's the case, then it seems as though I should be fine with the carbine for .223 target ammo, but may need the "H" for the m855, or other 5.56 ammo for example - right?

[nml]

Yeah remember the buffer is just sitting there all peaceful and neutral like Switzerland, it's only when you pull the trigger that the gas recoil slams the bolt carrier rearward into the buffer.

(Not to confuse) but buffer weights are designed to slide around so there's also secondary action going on after it stops rearward on the receiver extension. In summary, I basically leave it to the cool guys w high-speed cameras measuring cyclic rates in various environments to find out what works best.

When you try out both buffers and have them in front of you, I'm sure you'll be like "What was I worrying about again?"

[Terminator2003]

Yeah remember the buffer is just sitting there all peaceful and neutral like Switzerland, it's only when you pull the trigger that the gas recoil slams the bolt carrier rearward into the buffer.

(Not to confuse) but buffer weights are designed to slide around so there's also secondary action going on after it stops rearward on the receiver extension. In summary, I basically leave it to the cool guys w high-speed cameras measuring cyclic rates in various environments to find out what works best.

When you try out both buffers and have them in front of you, I'm sure you'll be like "What was I worrying about again?"

:lol:I'm sure you are right. This wasn't so much worry as it was excitement and anxiety while waiting for the rest of the parts to finish the build. I was just hoping that I didn't make a mistake that would delay things, so if it was suggested here that the carbine buffer was inadequate, then I would have ordered something else to keep the delays down. I actually feel a lot better now thanks to your explanations, as well as the others. I actually got the parts from PSA today, so I was pretty excited, but they somehow forgot to include the charging handle, so I'm missing a key piece. Since you can never reach them by phone I used their email "form" to let them know of the error, so hopefully they will rectify this soon. I plan to eventually grab a Gunfighter handle for it, but couldn't pass on the deal they had with their premium BCG. It was only $10 extra for the handle. At least it will make a good spare once I upgrade.;)

[skyugo]

I'm running an H on my 16" middy. it functions with minimum powder in a 55 grain/ramshot tac load. I don't think i'd go beyond an H in a middy.

[contax_shooter]

I've been running an H2 with a 14.5" BCM mid-length for about 1,500 rounds.

I've ran the gun with very little lube and it's been functioning fine using a variety of Walmart Federal .223 55gr FMJ, American Eagle .223 55gr, FMJ, BVAC .223 55gr FMJ, BVAC .223 62gr FMJ, and dirty Federal XM193f 5.56 without any problems regarding short stroking, failure to lock on empty, etc.

Now I haven't noticed any damage to the buffer itself on either end besides for a few nicks around the outer edges of the area that's exposed to the bolt carrier. Based on what I've accumulated from reading these boards, any damage to the buffer would essentially result from an over-gassed system and the buffer is moving too fast.

Knowing that my setup works with that variety so far, should I continue to use the H2 buffer?

[panzerr]

I've been running an H2 with a 14.5" BCM mid-length for about 1,500 rounds.

I've ran the gun with very little lube and it's been functioning fine using a variety of Walmart Federal .223 55gr FMJ, American Eagle .223 55gr, FMJ, BVAC .223 55gr FMJ, BVAC .223 62gr FMJ, and dirty Federal XM193f 5.56 without any problems regarding short stroking, failure to lock on empty, etc.

Now I haven't noticed any damage to the buffer itself on either end besides for a few nicks around the outer edges of the area that's exposed to the bolt carrier. Based on what I've accumulated from reading these boards, any damage to the buffer would essentially result from an over-gassed system and the buffer is moving too fast.

Knowing that my setup works with that variety so far, should I continue to use the H2 buffer?

If it works with all types of ammo why would you want to change it?

Are you running a semi-auto carrier, by chance?

[contax_shooter]

If it works with all types of ammo why would you want to change it?

Are you running a semi-auto carrier, by chance?

Yes, I'm running a semi-auto carrier. All this talk about the different buffers and the way the BCM mid-length systems were designed to use the H buffer was making me second guessing my current configuration.

[panzerr]

Yes, I'm running a semi-auto carrier. All this talk about the different buffers and the way the BCM mid-length systems were designed to use the H buffer was making me second guessing my current configuration.

It was designed to be used with an H buffer and a full auto carrier, which is heavier than a semi auto carrier. A semi auto carrier with an H2 must be roughly the same weight as it seems to be working fine for you, even with low power ammo.

[Iraqgunz]

Don't overthink this subject like others are doing and you will be fine.

[contax_shooter]

It was designed to be used with an H buffer and a full auto carrier, which is heavier than a semi auto carrier. A semi auto carrier with an H2 must be roughly the same weight as it seems to be working fine for you, even with low power ammo.


Don't overthink this subject like others are doing and you will be fine.

That's what happens when you surf these boards during downtime at work. Tend to find solutions for problems that doesn't exist and spend money when it's unnecessary.

Thanks guys.

[Terminator2003]

Ok, I finally got all of the parts to finish assembling the middy today and brought it to the range for a test with the carbine buffer. Unfortunately, I only had a single box Remington 55g. .223 on hand, so I didn't get to see how the 5.56 will perform. What surprised me, though, was how hard it cycled with the low power ammo. The cases were hitting the top of the shell deflector, and hitting the ground in the 4-5 o'clock position about 10-12 feet away. All of the cases had dents at the top of the case right before it necks down. There was also a patch of transferred brass at the top of the deflector. Based on this, I assume the 5.56 ammo will be worse. In this scenario, would you guys recommend trying an H buffer to slow the action down a bit, or is this normal?:confused:

[nml]

Yes your deflector is deflecting. Soft brass + hard (relatively) aluminum = dinged brass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1P5IdAyFpw

Glad gun is shooting well. As far as H buffer, remember you can't hurt anything and numerous people in the thread recommended it so any time spent posting is time you could be adding to shopping cart and checking out ;)

[madcratebuilder]

It was designed to be used with an H buffer and a full auto carrier, which is heavier than a semi auto carrier. A semi auto carrier with an H2 must be roughly the same weight as it seems to be working fine for you, even with low power ammo.

+1

The FA carrier is .4oz+/- heavier than the SA carrier. The H2 is about .8oz+/- heavier than the H buffer.

[Heidevolk]

Just got my first BCM upper in the mail.

14.5" Mid-length system.

Shot it with an H2 buffer + Standard spring I had installed in one of my lowers. Shot a couple hundred rounds of ammo, mix of M193 and Wolf. Everything appeared to cycle & eject fine. No malfunctions.

Am I GTG with keeping the H2 installed unless I run into a malfunction after a few hundred more rounds + no cleaning - or should I install an "H" in this setup anyway to reach some sort of optimal cyclic rate? (These discussions confuse me)

[JSantoro]

Merged.

[ASH556]

I run my DD 16" mid with an H2 buffer and std BCM spring. It's been 1200 rounds good except for a few rounds of crappy reloads that I got in a trade deal. I never should've shot them to to begin with. After running the gun with XM193, these sounded like a 22 going off and must've been way underpowered. I threw them away, but like I said, all commercial 223 (PMC) and M193 (Federal) has been flawless. 500+ were in a Vickers class for what that's worth regarding volume of fire over time.

[ROUTEMICHIGAN]

H2 buffer with blue Sprinco in my 14.5" Centurion arms middy. Flawless through 1,500+ rounds. When shooting from prone, nice pile of brass to my 4 o'clock.