View Full Version : one oclock ejection
The gun is a Charles Daily 16" Carbine, less then 3000 rnds, semi BCG, H buffer.
What we have done so far. cleaned barrel and chamber, swapped in my LMT auto BCG. still happens.
Swapped out the buffer with a Carbine buffer, still happens.
The brass isnt even hitting the deflector, but it is hitting on the back of the ejection port.
There is no sign of gas leaking around the FSB.
Anybody have any suggestions on what else I could try.
two different bolts and still the same issue......wondering myself...
DeltaSierra
01-17-12, 17:40
Stop wasting time worrying about ejection patterns - it is nonsense.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1102317
Stop wasting time worrying about ejection patterns - it is nonsense.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1102317
Huh, I missed the thread..
So this thread will go to delete city.
Can ya do that for me mods?
It appears that I remain one of the few who still understand that ejection pattern holds valuable information.
Every machine has expected performance standards given optimum operating conditions.
Ejection pattern is one of those standards that is indicitave of the performance of the machine. A change in ejection pattern is indicitave of a change in the operating conditions of the machine, a change in it's power source, or the conditions of en environment outside the machine that effect its operation.
That being said, the optimal ejection pattern of an AR with a brass deflector is to the 3 o'clock position. This is assuming that all parts are new, within spec, and unfouled.
When the ejection pattern changes, there are always different aspects of the machine that can affect its operating perameters or mimic other aspects.
In the case described in the OP, the brass ejecting forward like that is usually indicitive of an over gassed gun. Meaning that bolt speed is so fast that the brass is so far back in the receiver by the time that it is leaving the ejection port that it is hitting the rear of the ejection port and and deflecting forward instead of straight out the side as it should.
Excessive bolt speed can be mimicked by a weak ejector spring or some sort of fouling of the ejector that prevents the ejecting brass from exiting the ejection port when it's supposed to. It can also be mimicked by a worn action spring (buffer spring)
My question is if the rifle has been behaving like this for it's entire round count or if this is new behavior.
If it's new behavior, i'd check your action spring since you've changed out the bolt and carrier and still experience the same behavior. Measure it and check length per the TM, replace as necessary.
Ah, the thread still lives.
Im pretty sure we did swap the spring. Ill have to get with him and ask.
It appears that I remain one of the few who still understand that ejection pattern holds valuable information.
The problem is that it holds only a piece of the big picture. And some ass wipe put a MS paint diagram on the gun forums and has people all assed up if their gun doesn't match the stupid image's ideal ejection pattern.
So you end up with guys installing a bunch of aftermarket trash in their guns and drifting even further out to sea.
Ejection direction taken in context with all available info can tell you something for sure. I mean... I can put my can on my carbean and watch the brass move from 2:30 to 1:30 and start flying farther away... obviously the bolt speed is much greater.
Don't sweat it. However, high extractor tension (x-power spring and o-ring) can induce this in some guns.
Heavy Metal
01-18-12, 10:05
Try an H2 or H3 and see if it moves to the rear. Heavier buffers tend to move the pattern to the rear.
Robb Jensen
01-18-12, 10:36
If your AR is ejecting forward and it concerns you remove the O-ring or extractor D-fender from the extractor spring.
Looking back to what I posted, We went the worng way with the buffer, we put in a lighter buffer. so there may be hope.
I didnt mention that it any started ejecting to the front.
We wont be able to shoot agian till Monday.
If nothing changes, he will have to live with it.
Jay Cunningham
01-18-12, 12:43
Has the gun proven unreliable?
no, it shoots fine.
Like I said Ill swap the buffer, if that doesnt help, he will have to live with it.
Jay Cunningham
01-18-12, 16:49
no, it shoots fine.
Like I said Ill swap the buffer, if that doesnt help, he will have to live with it.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
The problem is that it holds only a piece of the big picture. And some ass wipe put a MS paint diagram on the gun forums and has people all assed up if their gun doesn't match the stupid image's ideal ejection pattern.
So you end up with guys installing a bunch of aftermarket trash in their guns and drifting even further out to sea.
Ejection direction taken in context with all available info can tell you something for sure. I mean... I can put my can on my carbean and watch the brass move from 2:30 to 1:30 and start flying farther away... obviously the bolt speed is much greater.
Exactly.
Ejection pattern won't tell you exactly what is wrong with the gun, but it's a starting point.
It's like someone walking into a mechanics shop and saying "There's a clunk on the right front side every time I turn the wheel to the left.".
Sure it doesn't tell the mechanic exactly what the issue is, but it narrows down the possibilities and tells him what to look for. That is all the ejection pattern has ever been good for.
If the brass is ejecting to the rear, it lets the shooter know which area to start looking at when diagnosing the gun in regards to a weak gas system or at the other aspects that mimic a weak gas system. If it starts ejecting way far forward, it lets the shooter know to look at an excessive gas system or the aspects of the machine that mimic the issue.
To me, it's all about PMCS. Just running a gun that "seems" to work find until it has a malfunction isn't a wise thing in my opinion.
Let's put it this way. Every machine made comes with all sorts of guages, dials, readouts, etc. to let us know that the machine is working within certian operating peramiters. Sure your car *might* be working, but just because it is working dosn't mean it is working *right*. Fixing potential issues BEFORE they turn into actual malfunctions is how one makes sure a gun works when it is really needed. Since ARs don't have all the guages and whatnot to tell us if it is at optimal working condition, we must look at its behavior and make sure that we do our part to keep it working and maintinence the weapon, replace parts when they start showing that they are reaching the end of their operational lives, and keep the gun running BEFORE it fails.
This being the case, don't blame the chart or the idea of using ejection as a starting point to diagnose issues for the idiots who start throwing a bunch of useless crap on their guns to compesate for stuff they don't understand. It's not the charts fault, it's the fault of people who don't know what they don't know and who would be tapco-****ing their ARs even without the chart.
This is why I believe that for "internet diagnosis", the ejection pattern is usefull. Since we cannot be right there with the gun which is showing the issues, we can at least give the person asking the question a starting point for things to look at. Not to suggest that stupid aftermarket parts be added to try and "tune" the gun, but rather as a starting point to look at stock parts that might be reaching their operational life and need replacing as a natural order of business. (assuming of course that the gun and parts in question are quality parts to begin with).
I had this issue recently here myself. I had a gun with a bushy barrel that I ran pretty hard with a suppressor and near the end of the session, the bolt started to not lock back on the last round. The brass was ejecting way far forward though so I know that it wasn't a case of a weak gas system or excessive fouling of the BCG. I was told by some here that it was the barrel. It was stated that because it was a bushy that the gas port was oversized and because of the overall round count down the pipe that it was a case of excessive bolt speed caused by an oversized gas port. They completely ignored me when I said that it ejected fine without the can and that given the fouling of the system, I would expect the bolt speed to be slower because I had not lubed the gun at all during the session (and was also using a failzero BCG).
Turns out that the next time I ran the gun, I had removed the Magpul BAD lever and it lockes back just fine even with no lube and dirty as ****. My best guesstimate is that excessive fouling of the bolt catch with the added weight of the BAD lever prevented the bolt catch from moving quick enough to catch the bolt. Remove the extra weight of the BAD lever and the part workes just fine even when dirty. The thing was that at the time I originally asked the question, I didn't even think about the BAD lever as being a possible culprit.
I was told by at least one person that they could easily diagnose my issues without ever having seen the rifle simply because of who made the barrel.
Never mind that even with now over 10,000 rounds down the pipe, when the gun is clean and all springs are within acceptable service life that it consistently makes a very nice little pile almost directly to the 3 o'clock position (without the can attached) and always locks back on the last round. Not exactly the performance of an overgassed gun by any stretch of the imagination.
No, I am not "defending" shitty QC by bushy or any other company that cuts corners, what I am saying is that even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then (in this case bushy made a barrel that is actually performing properly) and the performance of the machine is what needs to be observed, not pre-conceived notions about what is or what should be. Although admittedly nowing a companys previous track record *can* be just as valuable of a starting point as the ejection pattern, all information must be viewed as a whole, not cherry picked because of personal bias.
Looking back to what I posted, We went the worng way with the buffer, we put in a lighter buffer. so there may be hope.
I didnt mention that it any started ejecting to the front.
One o'clock ejection is to the front. It's in your thread title.
Just sayin'.... :)
One thing you didn't clarify yet: Has the gun always acted like this or is this recent behavior?
One o'clock ejection is to the front. It's in your thread title.
Just sayin'.... :)
One thing you didn't clarify yet: Has the gun always acted like this or is this recent behavior?
Ooops, the last line should say it "ONLY" just started to happen.
Ooops, the last line should say it "ONLY" just started to happen.
Then i'd start looking at the action spring considering that you've changed BCG's and still experience the same issue. Go back to the original buffer and get a new action spring and the gun will probably settle down to where it used to be.
If the gun has been *acting* properly until now, that indicates that one of the parts is past its operational life and has started to fail.
Springs are usually the first to go, all else being equal.
The single most devastating thing to hit the AR family in 40 years= OVERTHINKING THINGS.
Seems pretty simple to me.
nineteenkilo
01-19-12, 09:44
The single most devastating thing to hit the AR family in 40 years= OVERTHINKING THINGS.
This, OP. If the weapon functions normally, please leave it alone.
That is, of course, you don't have really sensitive brass that is easily offended by where it lands. :p
I would get a Spikes buffer, two O rings, KNS pins, and Nano lube!!!
Then report back!!
It appears that I remain one of the few who still understand that ejection pattern holds valuable information.
Every machine has expected performance standards given optimum operating conditions.
Ejection pattern is one of those standards that is indicitave of the performance of the machine. A change in ejection pattern is indicitave of a change in the operating conditions of the machine, a change in it's power source, or the conditions of en environment outside the machine that effect its operation.
That being said, the optimal ejection pattern of an AR with a brass deflector is to the 3 o'clock position. This is assuming that all parts are new, within spec, and unfouled.
When the ejection pattern changes, there are always different aspects of the machine that can affect its operating perameters or mimic other aspects.
In the case described in the OP, the brass ejecting forward like that is usually indicitive of an over gassed gun. Meaning that bolt speed is so fast that the brass is so far back in the receiver by the time that it is leaving the ejection port that it is hitting the rear of the ejection port and and deflecting forward instead of straight out the side as it should.
Excessive bolt speed can be mimicked by a weak ejector spring or some sort of fouling of the ejector that prevents the ejecting brass from exiting the ejection port when it's supposed to. It can also be mimicked by a worn action spring (buffer spring)
My question is if the rifle has been behaving like this for it's entire round count or if this is new behavior.
If it's new behavior, i'd check your action spring since you've changed out the bolt and carrier and still experience the same behavior. Measure it and check length per the TM, replace as necessary.
This is my experience as well. When I fire hotter ammunition, ejection moves forward. Weaker ammunition,ejection moves rearward.
Fouled ejector (deformed bolt shaving brass seized it in the tunnel) caused my ejection pattern to move the same direction as weaker ammunition--about 3-4 o-click.
saddlerocker
01-19-12, 21:33
When I pull my charging handle all the way to the rear, the bolt face moves behind the ejection port.
Without seeing it with a slow motion camera, I am assuming the the bolt is dragging the brass into the back of the ejection port.
It could be a combined issue with the ejector spring and maybe needing a heavier buffer (using an H buffer in 16" BCM Middy)
After shimming the receiver extension with a washer, ejection is normal.
One reason it bothered me was because I was unsure if the hefty dents in the brass would be ok for reloading.
No I did not have any malfunction issues either, but I just felt its not how its supposed to be.
Shortening the receiver extension would be the desirable solution, but I lack the tools to grind it. Maybe a quality receiver extension would help. Mine is unknown.
I am unsure if I will let it go or continue to tinker (It is a hobby after all, It is not a duty weapon, and I dont use it for HD)
This is just my experience, yours may be different.
When I brought this up in another thread the general consensus was to leave it alone...
After shimming the receiver extension with a washer, ejection is normal.
One reason it bothered me was because I was unsure if the hefty dents in the brass would be ok for reloading.
No I did not have any malfunction issues either, but I just felt its not how its supposed to be.
Shortening the receiver extension would be the desirable solution, but I lack the tools to grind it. ..
:suicide:
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 22:23
Aw, shucks...
Wait...
Did I just log into Arfcom?
When I pull my charging handle all the way to the rear, the bolt face moves behind the ejection port.
Without seeing it with a slow motion camera, I am assuming the the bolt is dragging the brass into the back of the ejection port.
It could be a combined issue with the ejector spring and maybe needing a heavier buffer (using an H buffer in 16" BCM Middy)
After shimming the receiver extension with a washer, ejection is normal.
One reason it bothered me was because I was unsure if the hefty dents in the brass would be ok for reloading.
No I did not have any malfunction issues either, but I just felt its not how its supposed to be.
Shortening the receiver extension would be the desirable solution, but I lack the tools to grind it. Maybe a quality receiver extension would help. Mine is unknown.
I am unsure if I will let it go or continue to tinker (It is a hobby after all, It is not a duty weapon, and I dont use it for HD)
This is just my experience, yours may be different.
When I brought this up in another thread the general consensus was to leave it alone...
saddlerocker
01-19-12, 22:47
Thats what I figured......
Yup, that's what we figured too......
On that note, do you work for Red Jacket firearms by any chance?
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 22:57
Thats what I figured......
Shimming and grinding parts is entirely useless, and will increase the chances of serious issues...
If you are having actual issues, it would be one thing to replace the parts, but this is not shop class, so put down the grinder... Not only that, but the "issues" you are describing are simply not a real problem, and don't need to be tinkered with or "fixed" at all, much less in the manner you are describing.
On that note, do you work for Red Jacket firearms by any chance?
:haha:
Not everyone is able to determine a healthy weapon from ejection just like most can't tell a tick from a knock in a vehicle,
If you're ejecting there with the hottest ammo you should come across that's fine, doing that with Tula and you'll stovepipe eventually on m855. The answer tells you if you should step up the buffer.
Blankwaffe
01-22-12, 17:24
The single most devastating thing to hit the AR family in 40 years= OVERTHINKING THINGS.
IG,
Thats another worthy sig line.
polymorpheous
01-22-12, 17:30
After shimming the receiver extension with a washer, ejection is normal.
One reason it bothered me was because I was unsure if the hefty dents in the brass would be ok for reloading.
No I did not have any malfunction issues either, but I just felt its not how its supposed to be.
Shortening the receiver extension would be the desirable solution, but I lack the tools to grind it. Maybe a quality receiver extension would help. Mine is unknown.
I am unsure if I will let it go or continue to tinker (It is a hobby after all, It is not a duty weapon, and I dont use it for HD)
Wow.
:eek:
I just KNEW that this thread was gonna make me :(
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