View Full Version : For those wanting a TAVOR
It's coming!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS3vHnEQXBg
Two billion dollars in aid, there's strings attached...
2012 is shaping up quite nicely!
calicojack
01-17-12, 20:49
betting price point of over $2k. i still want one....
The whole price is unknown thing worries me.
Moose-Knuckle
01-17-12, 21:11
Cool.
But we've heard this before.
Hopefully this time its a go.
Definately liking what I have seen so far from SHOT. Heard this before but really excited if IMI opens a plant in the US. Time will tell....
Between this, SCAR factory SBR barrels coming out, along with SBR barrels and caliber configurations for the ACR I'm going to go broke :p
bigdog2003_99
01-17-12, 21:47
^ dont forget the 2 moa t1,
you wont be the only one broke...
Between this, SCAR factory SBR barrels coming out, along with SBR barrels and caliber configurations for the ACR I'm going to go broke :p
Oh wow. Did Bushmaster announce SBR barrels for the ACR or what?
xrayoneone
01-17-12, 21:55
I've wanted one of those things for no other reason than it is something different. If I had the money and the ability I would have bought a FAMAS back in the day. I have a feeling these could be a great investment.
However, it will have to wait until after I get my 6940.
Oh wow. Did Bushmaster announce SBR barrels for the ACR or what?
Yes they did, I started a thread about it in the shot show section there is a link to the video where they talk about it.
When the Tavor comes out I will throw the new T-1 2 moa on it and a sling and light and call it good.
digging the tavor but I don't care for the trigger guard that goes over the whole grip.
If they are smart they will price it the same as the FS2000 or less. problem is that the market for $2k+ bullpups is limited in the USA. heck it didnt even do that well in Canada.
$1400-$1900 is about all the market will bear long term. you would see the early adopters grab it for the first year at maybe $2300.
In any event, 556 carbines of any stripe get boring after a while. they all pretty much do the same thing even if they look different and you get to learn a new manual of arms.
variablebinary
01-18-12, 02:01
Cool.
But we've heard this before.
Hopefully this time its a go.
True.
Barrett tried and failed.
Robinson tried and failed.
Charles Daly collapsed, but was reborn.
Guess we will see. I'm hopeful, but not holding my breath.
And Kassnar has a good sense of humor. And that's a really good looking gun.
Reagans Rascals
01-18-12, 02:13
I'd honestly buy that before I spent the money on a SCAR
I'd honestly buy that before I spent the money on a SCAR
same here.
2012 is shaping up quite nicely!
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
variablebinary
01-18-12, 02:51
2012 is shaping up quite nicely!
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
Keep in mind, the Tavor is jinxed all the hell when it comes to the USA.
The Canadians have had theirs for a couple of years, but the USA can't seem to get this weapon without some drama
ForTehNguyen
01-18-12, 09:27
do freaking want, maybe with the Mepro 21 same as the IDF uses
Glad to see Mr. K is still swinging for the stands. There is the longest thread I have ever seen on TOS in teh bullpup forum. I think its 80 pages.
I'm a bullpup fan and have a TPD and an Aug A3. I'd be interested in getting one, but it looks big and chunky compared to the AUG platforms. My imagination?
It'll be interesting to see if they can do this. The Israeli's have been notoriously hard to deal with, so I'll believe it when I see it.
This is awesome news, I've been hoping these would come to the U.S. for a while now. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that someone doesn't find a way to mess it all up.
^ dont forget the 2 moa t1,
you wont be the only one broke...
Wait, what? Where? Show me, I want one.
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 12:04
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97054
Wait, what? Where? Show me, I want one.
Thanks! Just read through it.
If they are smart they will price it the same as the FS2000 or less. problem is that the market for $2k+ bullpups is limited in the USA. heck it didnt even do that well in Canada.
$1400-$1900 is about all the market will bear long term. you would see the early adopters grab it for the first year at maybe $2300.
In Canada this sell for 4K. Those are original Tavors, built in Israel, in the same plant the millitary ones are built.
The idea of new modern rifle for $1500, with the value of the US dollar this days is wishful thinking. This is a foreign rifle, I don't see it sold under 2200, unless it's built like they do the SIG556 with cheap, poor quality parts.
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 12:46
In Canada this sell for 4K. Those are original Tavors, built in Israel, in the same plant the millitary ones are built.
The idea of new modern rifle for $1500, with the value of the US dollar this days is wishful thinking. This is a foreign rifle, I don't see it sold under 2200, unless it's built like they do the SIG556 with cheap, poor quality parts.
You can't win with some of these people...
If it is a quality rifle, using good parts, it will be expensive.
In order to bring the price down, you have to cut costs somewhere, so the quality will suffer.
Take your pick - high quality, high price or low quality, low price...
Personally, I couldn't care less about the Tavor - I'm waiting for Steyr...
At this point in time, I could care less about any new rifle or get my hopes up.
MR556 = ****ed over
SIG556 = ****ed over
AUG A3 = No longer imported
SCAR = No aftermarket support
ACR = ****ed over
FN P90 = No factory SBR option
The Tavor will be ****ed over.
At this point in time, I could care less about any new rifle or get my hopes up.
MR556 = ****ed over
SIG556 = ****ed over
AUG A3 = No longer imported
SCAR = No aftermarket support
ACR = ****ed over
FN P90 = No factory SBR option
The Tavor will be ****ed over.
By "****ed over" you mean it has a poorer design or the manufacturer cheaped out?
By "****ed over" you mean it has a poorer design or the manufacturer cheaped out?
Cheaped out.
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 13:45
At this point in time, I could care less about any new rifle or get my hopes up.
MR556 = ****ed over
SIG556 = ****ed over
AUG A3 = No longer imported
SCAR = No aftermarket support
ACR = ****ed over
FN P90 = No factory SBR option
The Tavor will be ****ed over.
Steyr is going to be re-introducing the AUG A3 this summer. They are working with a company in the US to produce 5 US parts (receiver, barrel, etc) and the rest of the components will be Austrian made.
This means that there should finally be a high quality, foreign-made bullpup rifle with manufacturer support...
Isn't there a morale patch about Grizzly Bear hunting with a Tavor? I saw it once on here, it was hilarious.
Magic_Salad0892
01-18-12, 15:17
At this point in time, I could care less about any new rifle or get my hopes up.
MR556 = ****ed over
SIG556 = ****ed over
AUG A3 = No longer imported
SCAR = No aftermarket support
ACR = ****ed over
FN P90 = No factory SBR option
The Tavor will be ****ed over.
FNH P90 blows anyway. And you forgot about the POS FNH F2000.
FNH P90 blows anyway. And you forgot about the POS FNH F2000.
What makes the ps90 blow, and why is the fs2000 a POS?
Thread drift alert... can we start a different thread on why the PS90 or FS2000 sucks?
I knew there was a reason I still had a MARS optic.
TurretGunner
01-18-12, 20:01
I knew there was a reason I still had a MARS optic.
I got a buddy with an IR on hes been trying to sell me for years.
There is no combat weapon I am more excited about then the TAVOR. It is an amazing piece. VERY simple design, whole thing field strips in like 10 seconds, easy to clean, very high quality parts. There is a reason the IDF abandoned the M4/m16 and created this best. With an 18" barrel your looking at the equivelent of a 7" AR at around 26.5". I will find a way to get one of these. The ONLY gun that has excited me in the last couple years. The only thing worth a shit to come out of shotshow this year. You can keep you 234324234 lumen $700 surefires and ****ing $600 softshells in the camo of week, I want this
Well I see they already have it ****ed up with a 16" barrel instead of the real 18" barrel.
TurretGunner
01-18-12, 21:09
Well I see they already have it ****ed up with a 16" barrel instead of the real 18" barrel.
Why? You can always have a new barrel built or buy one. 99.9% of people who buy a rifle will get no real difference between a 14.5/16/18" barrel. Its inconsequenal. The only thing that matters is ballance. I just hope they left enough meat behind the threads to fit all the various reflex cans on the market.
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 21:12
Is there any possible logical reason for this?
I can't figure it out for the life of me...
Well I see they already have it ****ed up with a 16" barrel instead of the real 18" barrel.
charmcitycop
01-18-12, 22:30
......
Moose-Knuckle
01-18-12, 22:57
The Steyr AUGA3 is no longer being imported? Is this due to a lack of interest or is it from the SDI scandal?
Not to spread any errornet lore, but what I read was that due to the economic down turn and poor sales in the States.
Feel free to advise and correct if this is incorrect with more factual data.
Is there any possible logical reason for this?
I can't figure it out for the life of me...
My guess is that they wanted to try and come in as close as possible to the CTAR-21 which has a 15" barrel and is the version most commonly used by the IDF.
I wonder if you can buy barrels from Canada? Like this one: http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=247&cat=0&page=1
EDIT: Oh, from the video I believe they had to do it to make it non-NFA due to the overall length being 25.2" on the CTAR-21.
Not to spread any errornet lore, but what I read was that due to the economic down turn and poor sales in the States.
Feel free to advise and correct if this is incorrect with more factual data.
I don't believe that at all.
I think it is a combination of the SDI scandal and the current administration.
My guess is that they wanted to try and come in as close as possible to the CTAR-21 which has a 15" barrel and is the version most commonly used by the IDF.
I wonder if you can buy barrels from Canada? Like this one: http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=247&cat=0&page=1
EDIT: Oh, from the video I believe they had to do it to make it non-NFA due to the overall length being 25.2" on the CTAR-21.
The CTAR-21 has a 15" barrel. It is an SBR because of barrel length, not overall length.
Is there any possible logical reason for this?
I can't figure it out for the life of me...
You just don't "get it" do you?
All people want is a semi auto clone of a real military weapon.
We don't want any civilian only barrel or any cheaped out shit.
FN can't figure this out either.
TurretGunner
01-19-12, 08:36
The CTAR-21 has a 15" barrel. It is an SBR because of barrel length, not overall length.
Yes it is. Anything less than 26" overall would be a SBR.
Do Want! I just hope they can get the cost down to a reasonable level without sacrificing quality
Yes it is. Anything less than 26" overall would be a SBR.
They had to extend it to get past 16" barrel length and at the same time it happened to get past 26" OAL.
AN FS200 has a 17.5" barrel (extra barrel added to it) to meet OAL requirements. That was my point.
IMI could have just released the 18" barrel and been done with it which would already have meet non NFA requirements, instead of making another length barrel.
charmcitycop
01-19-12, 10:52
.....
variablebinary
01-19-12, 10:57
Provided the TAVOR is built to high standards, I don't see barrel length being an issue.
16" barrels by default or necessity are the standard in commercially available weapons for LE/Civi, and doesn't necessarily make a product worse than militarized versions.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/IMG_62011.jpg
Maybe they thought the with the popularity of 16" carbine in the USA, they should be offering it with a 16" barrel? It would have been easier for them to just put on the barrels that they already produce instead of making new lengths though.
So what are the other changes than barrel length?
GLOCKCRAZZ
01-19-12, 11:11
On my want list!!
I don't believe that at all.
I think it is a combination of the SDI scandal and the current administration.
Don't quite understand what the current administration has to do with it. I love my A3, but it is expensive compared to an AR. They also got hit at the bottom of the price/quality with MSAR which ate into their market share. When Sabre execs got prosecuted they lost their domestic partner. So you have soft economy, no local production partner, an expensive product (relative to ARs), and a lower priced clone. Combined with limited market appeal... No big surprise that they suspended production. They need to make 22 LR versions, a 9mm conversion, and different barrels/optics. They will never be able to compete on price, but they can make their offering more compelling.
TurretGunner
01-19-12, 13:26
They had to extend it to get past 16" barrel length and at the same time it happened to get past 26" OAL.
AN FS200 has a 17.5" barrel (extra barrel added to it) to meet OAL requirements. That was my point.
IMI could have just released the 18" barrel and been done with it which would already have meet non NFA requirements, instead of making another length barrel.
You stated the rifle is a SBR beacuse it has a 15" barrel , not beacuse of OAL.
They both make it a SBR.
Maybe they designed it to satisy both requirements..... thats a novel idea. Maybe they realized that people would rather have the shortest possible rifle while being non-NFA, but Mr. K isint here to ask.
TurretGunner
01-19-12, 13:29
The CTAR-21 has a 15" barrel. It is an SBR because of barrel length, not overall length.
Maybe we just "dont get it".
Beat Trash
01-19-12, 13:37
The compactness of a bullpup such as the Tavor appeals to me for certain applications.
I have ZERO trigger time with a bullpup firearm, so please excuse my ignorance... But I have a question to ask.
With your face closer to the muzzle when firing a bull pup such as the Tavor or AUG, is the muzzle blast and noise noticeably more than if firing an AR platform with the same barrel length? I would assume so.
If it is, is it enough to be of concern? Or is it something you can notice the difference, but it's no big deal?
Im tring to figure out the no after market support for the scar: pws,magpul,tangodown,and vltor make aftermarket parts for it. Also FNH factory parts are readily available from multiple places, the only parts not avail are barrels, bolts, and the bolt carrier group. And barrels are slated to be available in various lengths this year.
Edit: and armorer's block sets are available
Evil Colt 6920
01-19-12, 14:13
I dont mind the 16" barrel... although it makes me wonder what else is going to be different:confused:
It would have been easier for them to just put on the barrels that they already produce instead of making new lengths though.
No. Barrels for non sporting firearms cannot be imported. They will need to be made in the US so I think it's smart for them to try to make it a length they think will sell the best here.
TurretGunner
01-19-12, 14:30
The compactness of a bullpup such as the Tavor appeals to me for certain applications.
I have ZERO trigger time with a bullpup firearm, so please excuse my ignorance... But I have a question to ask.
With your face closer to the muzzle when firing a bull pup such as the Tavor or AUG, is the muzzle blast and noise noticeably more than if firing an AR platform with the same barrel length? I would assume so.
If it is, is it enough to be of concern? Or is it something you can notice the difference, but it's no big deal?
Half of the worlds armies are using a bulpup or are moving towards one. Its not really an issue. When your firing in anger , muzzle blast is about 756th on your concern list.
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 14:34
No. Barrels for non sporting firearms cannot be imported. They will need to be made in the US so I think it's smart for them to try to make it a length they think will sell the best here.
Why would the Tavor be considered a non-sporting rifle, when the FS2000 is considered to be a sporting rifle, and is importable with no modifications or US made parts?
(edit, nevermind... I just looked up some information on this, and evidently the thumbhole stock on the FS2K puts it into the sporting catagory, when combined with its other features...)
TurretGunner
01-19-12, 14:43
Why would the Tavor be considered a non-sporting rifle, when the FN2000 is considered to be a sporting rifle, and is importable with no modifications or US made parts?
They nuetered features like bayo lugs and perm hiders, the fact it doesnt have a pistol grip also. The FS2000 is not a FN2000 like the ones inssued to armies around the globe.
I'd rather not have a pinned MB...
Also it's been implied several times that many of the TAVOR parts are already made here, so meeting the parts count and assembling them here would seem to make more sense.
Failure2Stop
01-19-12, 15:26
I am opening this back up.
If I see personal insults and name calling again I will delete all of your posts from this thread and hit you with an infraction for "childish bickering".
This piece looks neat. I am always looking for a quality bullpup. Bullpups have a unique manual of arms and have certain other issues that must be accounted for. However, it's compact profile and ease of use with one hand is a huge advantage when working in buildings and vehicles.
Now, without a doubt, this rifle will suffer from the same disease affecting everything that is not an AR, AK and possibly an FAL:
- Very little aftermarket support
- Lack of spare parts
- Poor price to performance ratio. At $1500 what is this rifle doing for you that an AR is not? At $3000+ are you telling me this rifle is twice as good as an AR? Really?
Obviously, if you want to own one for CDI points or collectors value then go for it. I wish I could have gotten in on one of the few imported FAMAS.
I really like it but I cant see the price being worth it. Like someone already mentioned, most 5.56 carbines do the same thing nowadays. They shoot about the same, deliver the same energy, accept the same accessories (rail systems). Only difference is looks and manual of arms
This piece looks neat. I am always looking for a quality bullpup. Bullpups have a unique manual of arms and have certain other issues that must be accounted for. However, it's compact profile and ease of use with one hand is a huge advantage when working in buildings and vehicles.
Now, without a doubt, this rifle will suffer from the same disease affecting everything that is not an AR, AK and possibly an FAL:
- Very little aftermarket support
- Lack of spare parts
- Poor price to performance ratio. At $1500 what is this rifle doing for you that an AR is not? At $3000+ are you telling me this rifle is twice as good as an AR? Really?
Well, they sell for $2800 canadian so they would probably street here for $2300-$2500 based on that. Frankly tho reality says that the FS2000 is their direct competition so they would want to price it similar to that which brings us down to $2100 MSRP with a street of $1700.
Back to your question... is it better than an AR costing less. My opinion?... only in it's ability to conceal easier. effect on target is the same as it is with ALL 556 carbines.
Bottom line for me... the fs2000 beat it to the punch and basically got a cool welcome from the AR centric US market. I would expect the tavor to meet the same fate unless they added caliber conversions and affordable and copious amounts of spare parts and compatibility with AR mags. even then at best it would expect a 50% share of the bullpup market in the first 5 years.
at this point in my personal firearms training and development, a 556 carbine is a 556 carbine is a 556 carbine. I'll be fine with what I got.
TurretGunner
01-21-12, 17:49
The tavor is the BEST bullpup out there bar none. You have to see how they break down to really appricate them. No other Bul could compete with it.
I dont know what aftermarket support you need? throw an optic on there, maybe a Can, and that's all you need. Hanging a bunch of shit off of it defeats the purpose of a small, light, pointable carbine that still retains acceptable ballistics.
What parts do you plan on breaking?
If they came out at $3K people would still buy them. There is a reason there is a 100 page thread of TOS about it. Sell them for just under 2K and they will outsell every other bullpup, and the piece of shit SCARS and ACR's.
Kinda hard to compare it pricewise to an AR, when there are 100's of companies making them and its a much cheaper rifle to build. I dont understand why people are complaining about geting more options as far as rifles go. Battle rifle wise, this is right up there with the AR/AK.
The magwell was great on the one I played around with at SHOT. Unlike the AUG clones I've used, this TAVOR variant inserted and spat out mags quite nicely.
I would really like one but NOT for 2k. There is a ton of competition out there and I don't think they will sell very well if priced like an FS2000. You can get a FS2000 right now for 1450 and the rest of them sitting on gun store shelves for 2k are collecting dust. Their competition is not only other Bullpups but all 223/5.56 weapons.
and yes Americans like to buy things like Guns and Cars and modify them weather it makes sense or not.
What parts do you plan on breaking?
All machines have wear parts. Now, most 'shooters' in the US do not shoot enough to really wear out their rifles. However, it is not uncommon for a serious AR shooter to wear out a bbl at around 20k rounds. Throat erosion is a fairly common problem for 5.56mm rifles subjected to hard/long service. Fire control parts also tend to need replacement from time to time.
Running and gunning, especially in concrete buildings will often break the plastic bits on the rifle. In the old days, a day at a MOUT site meant the replacement of a few plastic handguards. Now we just round off the corners of the 1913 rails. I have seen receiver extensions bent and stocks broken. Life is hard for Infantry rifles. For a civilian shooter I would just like to know that I have supply of replacement parts in case I bent something.
I like the look . I would like to have one to go with my FS200.
I like the look . I would like to have one to go with my FS2000.
Half of the worlds armies are using a bulpup or are moving towards one. Its not really an issue. When your firing in anger , muzzle blast is about 756th on your concern list.
Unintentional humor here: The Israelis are the very first one of that half that actually think they may have to USE their rifles.
The Eurotrash bullpups are the result of idiocy and ignorance of what a fighting rifle needs to be.
variablebinary
01-22-12, 05:57
The TAVOR is probably the biggest highlight of the show this year.
I can see the TAVOR + T1 being quite a popular combo later this year.
Start saving those pennies now, because the TAVOR will not be cheap.
The TAVOR is probably the biggest highlight of the show this year.
I can see the TAVOR + T1 being quite a popular combo later this year.
Start saving those pennies now, because the TAVOR will not be cheap.
You think it's going to be released this year?
variablebinary
01-22-12, 06:20
You think it's going to be released this year?
I'll take Kassner at his word when he says it will be here prior to the election...
But we all know the firearms industry is notorious for delays.
Condition Write
01-22-12, 07:46
The magwell was great on the one I played around with at SHOT. Unlike the AUG clones I've used, this TAVOR variant inserted and spat out mags quite nicely.
How's PMag/EMag compatibility on the Tavor? That's been a sticking point for some on the FS2000.
Failure2Stop
01-22-12, 08:52
What parts do you plan on breaking?
You have got to be kidding.
TurretGunner
01-22-12, 11:08
Unintentional humor here: The Israelis are the very first one of that half that actually think they may have to USE their rifles.
The Eurotrash bullpups are the result of idiocy and ignorance of what a fighting rifle needs to be.
Yea its funny how the French/Brits/Aussies/Austrians and now chineese have all gone to bullpups. This doesnt include the dozens of smaller armies like singapore and Saudi Arabia that are also moving towards them. Like it or not, they are the future of small arms.
Yea I am sure they all are buying/building bullpups planning on never having to use them......
You have got to be kidding.
If a Part breaks you order a new one from the factory or send it in to be fixed. Do you have spare parts for every part of your car/truck or do you take it to the dealership to get it fixed (at their cost).
I don't hear people complaining about their FS2000 or SCARS breaking and not being able to get them fixed.....
All machines have wear parts. Now, most 'shooters' in the US do not shoot enough to really wear out their rifles. However, it is not uncommon for a serious AR shooter to wear out a bbl at around 20k rounds. Throat erosion is a fairly common problem for 5.56mm rifles subjected to hard/long service. Fire control parts also tend to need replacement from time to time.
Running and gunning, especially in concrete buildings will often break the plastic bits on the rifle. In the old days, a day at a MOUT site meant the replacement of a few plastic handguards. Now we just round off the corners of the 1913 rails. I have seen receiver extensions bent and stocks broken. Life is hard for Infantry rifles. For a civilian shooter I would just like to know that I have supply of replacement parts in case I bent something.
You comparing the training that an infantry company does in a MOUNT enviroment to what a civilian will be doing. If someone has the money to put 20K rounds through a rifle, then the cost of the rifle is insignificant.
Real fact: 99.9% of AR pattern rifles in the US will never be used enough to shoot out a barrel to keyholing or wear of FCG parts to the point of failure. The very small percentage that actually do, would just have spare carbines to either use or canibilize. Like I said, if something breaks, and it will, then the factory will make it right. If thats not good enough then buy another rifle to canibalize for parts. If thats not good enough, then don't buy one, more for me.
Yea its funny how the French/Brits/Aussies/Austrians and now chineese have all gone to bullpups. This doesnt include the dozens of smaller armies like singapore and Saudi Arabia that are also moving towards them. Like it or not, they are the future of small arms.You are drawing the right conclusion from the wrong set of data. Add up the entire combat experience of these nations, then add every other single country in the world and then compare it to that of our active duty and retired personnel from Vietnam, Iraq 1, Afghanistan, Iraq 2 and smaller but just as dangerous operations over the globe. If we wanted bullpups, we'd be using bullpups.
That being said, I certainly agree with you that another option for the domestic market and sport shooting is a good thing.
If a Part breaks you order a new one from the factory or send it in to be fixed. Do you have spare parts for every part of your car/truck or do you take it to the dealership to get it fixed (at their cost).
I don't hear people complaining about their FS2000 or SCARS breaking and not being able to get them fixed.....
At this time, many of the parts you might want for the TAVOR may not be importable. Depending on how the TAVOR was made you could have 922r problems with replacement parts.
The FS2000 is pretty solidly in the 'range toy' category. Has anyone ever seen it at a class? The SCAR was purpose built for heavy use but it too has limited aftermarket support.
For a guy who shoots a few hundred rounds a years this is a non-issue. For the guy who shoots matches and goes to carbine classes (several thousands rounds a year), a lack of replacement parts will be an issue.
Because of legal issues, supply and demand, and other market fluctuations, you cannot compare civilian weapons to civilian cars. One legislative session in Congress could render your favorite shooting iron a boat anchor. Even in the worst days of the AWB you could still find plenty of AR parts.
Cool.
But we've heard this before.
Hopefully this time its a go.
yes, but we've never actually seen one, nor have we heard the ATF approval is completed. so many guns to buy this next year...going to be a tough year.
Failure2Stop
01-22-12, 14:10
If a Part breaks you order a new one from the factory or send it in to be fixed. Do you have spare parts for every part of your car/truck or do you take it to the dealership to get it fixed (at their cost).
I don't hear people complaining about their FS2000 or SCARS breaking and not being able to get them fixed.....
That's the issue with people asking about support parts.
Personally, I do stock the parts most likely to break and I know how to fox them. If parts are not available, when the gun goes down, I love it for however long it takes to get ahold of customer servoce, get an authorization number, ship it out, get it fixed, get it shipped back, get my crap reattached, rezero, and confirm fix.
I know my weapons, I know how to fix them, and I know the parts to stock and in what quantity to reduce or preclude down-time.
I most certainly DO hear about people getting FS2000s, SCARs, XDs, and other guns that go down and need to be shipped off to be fixed, and most of them are none too happy about it. The lack of support parts for the SCAR and XD have prevented many from buying them, especially in platforms that espouse their parts interchangability and barrel swap quickness.
I don't have every spare part for my car, but I have a spare tire and ready access to parts stores for the stuff I can do, and to a mechanic for the stuff I can't, and that only takes a day. How long will it take for that gun that I assume has a purpose for more than converting cartridges into brass to get back from the factory?
So I think that a request, nay, demand for ready parts support is not just posturing, nor is it ridiculous.
Failure2Stop
01-22-12, 14:15
Real fact: 99.9% of AR pattern rifles in the US will never be used enough to shoot out a barrel to keyholing or wear of FCG parts to the point of failure.
Real Fact: not the target audience at M4Carbine.net
Real Fact: at least 25% of the members here have shot enough to wear out a barrel, bolt, action spring, or hammer spring. I've done it more than once.
For those of us who live in states where SBRs are not allowed, bullpup designs are a very attractive idea. I personally have been waiting for the Tavor to hit the market because I am not a fan of any of the bullpups currently offered. If this gun lives up to its reputation and doesn't suffer the from the same shitty furniture issues as the ACR and SIG 556, you can bet that I'll pick one up.
The FS2000 is pretty solidly in the 'range toy' category. Has anyone ever seen it at a class?
I took a FS2000 to a class. When it came to shooting, accuracy, etc., the rifle did fine. The big problem I saw was that the carbine class was really an AR-15 course. I have taken a a few carbine classes and at this point I'd have to say unless otherwise specified, carbine class means the course is going to be geared towards the AR-15. If you bring a different rifle, you may be able to adapt the drills over but it's not the same thing.
When I brought a non-AR-15 pattern rifle to the class, the instructor was in a worse position than I was. I had at least handled the rifle a little bit and was familiar with some of how it worked. The instructor had never handled a FS2000 and didn't know its manual of arms. Unfortunately, he made me impose the AR-15 manual of arms on the FS2000. That didn't work well. -The gun doesn't haven't a last round bolt hold open. Do not lock the action open before inserting a mag to make it more like an AR. You are better off inserting the mag with the action closed.
I'd prefer people take a more measured and reasonable approach to the new designs instead of reflexively hating them or complaining that there isn't anything close to the same aftermarket support a popular rifle that has been around for over fifty years has. If we see some guy at a basic carbine course with a rifle and he's having difficulty, it's possible that the problem is the shooter not the rifle.
Failure2Stop
01-22-12, 15:04
When I brought a non-AR-15 pattern rifle to the class, the instructor was in a worse position than I was. I had at least handled the rifle a little bit and was familiar with some of how it worked. The instructor had never handled a FS2000 and didn't know its manual of arms. Unfortunately, he made me impose the AR-15 manual of arms on the FS2000. That didn't work well. -The gun doesn't haven't a last round bolt hold open. Do not lock the action open before inserting a mag to make it more like an AR. You are better off inserting the mag with the action closed.
Agreed, that's a problem with the instructor, not the weapon.
However, this is a thread about the Tavor and those that "do want", but you are free to post a new thread about the topic.
DeltaSierra
01-22-12, 15:06
The Eurotrash bullpups are the result of idiocy and ignorance of what a fighting rifle needs to be.
I don't see this at all.
What is wrong with the FAMAS and AUG? How is the Tavor soooo much better?
I fail to see any real benefit to Tavor, over the AUG or FAMAS, at least from a design perspective.
I don't see this at all.
What is wrong with the FAMAS and AUG? How is the Tavor soooo much better?
I fail to see any real benefit to Tavor, over the AUG or FAMAS, at least from a design perspective.
I'm not saying the Tavor is better at all.
In fact, I see bullpups as the pinnacle of non-ergo asshattery, driven by engineers who have never really used a gun in a fight, as well as number crunchers who are idiots.
The FAMAS is an unfightable, non-ergo piece of shit that has zero adaptability.
The AUG cannot even fire NATO standard ammo, and our AUG wielding partners need to import their "special" downloaded ammo. At least the AUG is fairly well put together, unlike the Brit piece of shit.
Bullpup users get to have fun trying to change mags, pulling a mag out of their armpit or trying to shake it loose. Then they get to work with a creepy, shitty trigger, that at best is mediocre. Of course, we need to add a three round burst to screw up our trigger as well. BTW, three round burst is another "science" driven bunch of crap.
As tempting as it is to go bullpup in order to get the superior exterior ballistics in a longer barrel and smaller size, there are inbuilt, difficult to overcome negatives, which one needs to accept. Frankly, I don't buy into the bullpup bullshit. But lots of nations which don't fight wars, and in fact do not see fighting a war as a possibility seem to love them.
I'm not saying the Tavor is better at all.
In fact, I see bullpups as the pinnacle of non-ergo asshattery, driven by engineers who have never really used a gun in a fight, as well as number crunchers who are idiots.
The FAMAS is an unfightable, non-ergo piece of shit that has zero adaptability.
The AUG cannot even fire NATO standard ammo, and our AUG wielding partners need to import their "special" downloaded ammo. At least the AUG is fairly well put together, unlike the Brit piece of shit.
Bullpup users get to have fun trying to change mags, pulling a mag out of their armpit or trying to shake it loose. Then they get to work with a creepy, shitty trigger, that at best is mediocre. Of course, we need to add a three round burst to screw up our trigger as well. BTW, three round burst is another "science" driven bunch of crap.
As tempting as it is to go bullpup in order to get the superior exterior ballistics in a longer barrel and smaller size, there are inbuilt, difficult to overcome negatives, which one needs to accept. Frankly, I don't buy into the bullpup bullshit. But lots of nations which don't fight wars, and in fact do not see fighting a war as a possibility seem to love them.
You confuse the AUG with the SA-80. Have you ever even shot an AUG? I found the AUG in the LE role to be well suited and I never had a functionality issue with mine.
variablebinary
01-22-12, 22:23
Frankly, I don't buy into the bullpup bullshit. But lots of nations which don't fight wars, and in fact do not see fighting a war as a possibility seem to love them.
You ever hear of Israel...the guys that invented the TAVOR
I'm not saying the Tavor is better at all.
In fact, I see bullpups as the pinnacle of non-ergo asshattery, driven by engineers who have never really used a gun in a fight, as well as number crunchers who are idiots.
The FAMAS is an unfightable, non-ergo piece of shit that has zero adaptability.
The AUG cannot even fire NATO standard ammo, and our AUG wielding partners need to import their "special" downloaded ammo. At least the AUG is fairly well put together, unlike the Brit piece of shit.
Bullpup users get to have fun trying to change mags, pulling a mag out of their armpit or trying to shake it loose. Then they get to work with a creepy, shitty trigger, that at best is mediocre. Of course, we need to add a three round burst to screw up our trigger as well. BTW, three round burst is another "science" driven bunch of crap.
As tempting as it is to go bullpup in order to get the superior exterior ballistics in a longer barrel and smaller size, there are inbuilt, difficult to overcome negatives, which one needs to accept. Frankly, I don't buy into the bullpup bullshit. But lots of nations which don't fight wars, and in fact do not see fighting a war as a possibility seem to love them.
Before we get locked for bashing and not Tavor talking I disagree with most of your comments in here. I have been using a bullpup rifle for patrol for several years now (first the MSAR and then an A3 AUG) and I can tell you that the design is not crap or made by someone that "number crunches" with no input from operators (I can remember reading articles about a little rifle made by Stoner that people were bashing because it was designed by people with zero combat experience). I have a great respect for most major rifles designs out there. They all have strengths and weaknesses but at least I am willing to give them a look without knocking their "new fangled" design...
DeltaSierra
01-22-12, 23:01
The AUG cannot even fire NATO standard ammo, and our AUG wielding partners need to import their "special" downloaded ammo.
.
That would be the SA80, rather than the AUG.
Failure2Stop
01-22-12, 23:34
Want to argue about bullpups?
Start a thread in Other Assault Rifles.
There is no need to hijack the thread every time someone references something else.
Whether or not Israel, Europeans, or other bullpup wielding nations actually know anything worthwhile about fighting carbines is outside the framework of this thread.
This is a thread about the Tavor.
It is an acceptance of the nature of the platform by the prospective buyer.
I closed and cleaned this thread once before.
I don't feel like doing it again, and next time it will just stay closed.
The topic:
Tavor has a high probability of being released in the US in the near future.
The full size TAR-21 has a bayonet lug. I fail to see why they do not want to offer this as this would hedge against any future AWB.
variablebinary
01-22-12, 23:47
In case people actually cared about what it looked like.
http://bullpupforum.com/gallery/1_17_01_12_11_51_07.jpeg
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/IMG_62011.jpg
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/41691-2/michael_kassner_tavor_0805web.jpg
In case people actually cared about what it looked like.
Stop it! You are not helping with my 2012 procurement schedule at all. Now I have to change things up a bit...........
variablebinary
01-22-12, 23:54
The USA version top rail already looks like an improvement over the Canadian model
http://members.shaw.ca/mikjk/Firearms/Rifles/Tavor.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/mikjk/Firearms/Rifles/Tavor%20new%20handguard%2001a.jpg
And the Israel model
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4194/photoon20110216at1029.jpg
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af32/pbr-streetgang/0451aacf.jpg
variablebinary
01-23-12, 00:00
More pics of USA model
http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100410/DSCF7134/web.jpg
http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100410/DSCF7133/web.jpg
http://gallery.me.com/asiparks/100410/DSCF7130/web.jpg
Definately a must have when they are released....now the waiting game begins....:mad:
TurretGunner
01-23-12, 12:01
Definately a must have when they are released....now the waiting game begins....:mad:
I'll be selling a Kidney if funds are short when these come out.
Hello All,
Now that SHOT is over and many people have seen, handled and commented on the sample at the show, I think some clarifications should be made to answer some of your questions and hopefully preclude any confusion about this project.
The US semi-auto Tavor will be manufactured in the US by IWI. Charles Daly and Trans World Arms will not have anything to do with the manufacturing of this firearm.
It will be made from Israeli imported parts and US sourced parts in full compliance with 922(r).
The semi-auto construction and engineering has been approved by BATF&E.
The Tavor accepts AR-15/M-16 mags, including PMags. Which mag will actually be supplied with the Tavor has yet to be decided.
The sample shown at SHOT, with a 16" barrel and full length Picatinny top rail, is only one configuration that is contemplated. (Actual production of this model will have a 16.5" barrel in order to meet the US minimum 26" OAL.) Other models could include a 18" version with or without the Mepro 21 reflex sight; perhaps to become the "IDF" model.) The number of models to be offered has not been finalized.
Initial deliveries are projected to be on the market by the end of October, hopefully sooner.
The projected MSRP (for models without optics) will hopefully stay under $2k.
If you have any further questions please post them here and I will do my best to answer them in the coming months.
Thanks again for your interest in this fantastic Bullpup.
Sincerely
chapperjoe
01-23-12, 13:15
I try to resist fads, and hype, especially vis-a-vis Israel.
I will be buying one of these.
Can't resist.
DeltaSierra
01-23-12, 13:16
Hello All,
Now that SHOT is over and many people have seen, handled and commented on the sample at the show, I think some clarifications should be made to answer some of your questions and hopefully preclude any confusion about this project.
The US semi-auto Tavor will be manufactured in the US by IWI. Charles Daly and Trans World Arms will not have anything to do with the manufacturing of this firearm.
It will be made from Israeli imported parts and US sourced parts in full compliance with 922(r).
The semi-auto construction and engineering has been approved by BATF&E.
The Tavor accepts AR-15/M-16 mags, including PMags. Which mag will actually be supplied with the Tavor has yet to be decided.
The sample shown at SHOT, with a 16" barrel and full length Picatinny top rail, is only one configuration that is contemplated. (Actual production of this model will have a 16.5" barrel in order to meet the US minimum 26" OAL.) Other models could include a 18" version with or without the Mepro 21 reflex sight; perhaps to become the "IDF" model.) The number of models to be offered has not been finalized.
Initial deliveries are projected to be on the market by the end of October, hopefully sooner.
The projected MSRP (for models without optics) will hopefully stay under $2k.
If you have any further questions please post them here and I will do my best to answer them in the coming months.
Thanks again for your interest in this fantastic Bullpup.
Sincerely
Thanks for the information.
Can you (or will you once the rifle is released) specify which parts will be made in the US and which parts will be imported, or is that privileged information?
I haven't seen any information yet as to whether the barrel with be chrome-lined or not, and what the twist rate will be. Do you know yet, or is this still to be determined?
Personally, I wouldn't buy a rifle that came as a package with a Mepro 21, but I would be potentially interested if they were offered without any optics.
Thanks for the information.
Can you (or will you once the rifle is released) specify which parts will be made in the US and which parts will be imported, or is that privileged information?
I haven't seen any information yet as to whether the barrel with be chrome-lined or not, and what the twist rate will be. Do you know yet, or is this still to be determined?
Personally, I wouldn't buy a rifle that came as a package with a Mepro 21, but I would be potentially interested if they were offered without any optics.
It will be up to IWI to decide whether or not to specify which parts will be US made. However, I will suggest to them that they do provide that information.
The barrel will be cold hammer forged, 1:7 twist, chrome lined.
Nice meeting you at SHOT Michael, thanks for showing me the Tavor.
dennisuello
01-23-12, 15:28
If it's under $2000, I would definitely be buying one.
As much of a stickler as I am for closest-to-traditional-military configuration-possible, that full length rail looks like a winner.
I'm still hoping for an 18" barrel configuration. I don't really care either way for the Mepro sight unless they're included at some insanely low price (which I'm not expecting to happen).
I got to play with it at shot. I was impressed. I really need one. Yes...need. I will have one if it stays under 2k
Price point is going to be a deciding factor - not to mention final specs. But, my interest is peaked...
Great news! I wil be getting a couple of them for sure.
The college town where my daughter is a freshman has several billboards soliciting college students to sell plasma for $60.00 per visit. If I can get my two daughters and my wife to sell their plasma as often as humanly possible, I'll have $2,000.00 in no time!
At Mr. Kassnar's anticipated price point, I am going to have to pony up and buy a Tavor even if the family won't sell their plasma to replenish my gun fund.
Is the barrel a true 5.56 and not a .223 based on the pictures?
TurretGunner
01-23-12, 19:24
Is the barrel a true 5.56 and not a .223 based on the pictures?
I am going to go on a limb that if they are going to make a 1/7 CL , CHF barrel its going to be correct specs.
Is the barrel a true 5.56 and not a .223 based on the pictures?
True 5.56mm.
Well, we may have a winner here!
Under $2k it is most likely a buy. Under $1500 and it is an industry wide game changer.
two videos I shot while at the Charles Daly Booth
Tavor at Shot SHow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeGV9VCHfIk)
More Tavor at Shot Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doRsBM4Uk2U)
Under $2.5K and with an 16.5" or 18" barrel, you've got a winner. Count me in on this.....
Hmmmmm. So you have to use your support hand to eject the mag in the gun before you can put your hands on the spare mag and get it in? Since it looks like you can't eject it with your strong hand, it'd be nice if there was a way to use the new magazine to eject the old one (like you can do with an AK).
If it's under $2K and not FUBAR then yeah I'll try to pick one up. If it breaks $2k then I'll stick with AR's like colt and arsenal AK's. Most of the cars I've owned in my life cost less than $2000.
two videos I shot while at the Charles Daly Booth
Tavor at Shot SHow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeGV9VCHfIk)
More Tavor at Shot Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doRsBM4Uk2U)
Thanks. The manual of arms is the best I have seen for a bullpup.
One additional thought - FDE plastic housing.
Policetacteam
01-29-12, 13:06
Wow!! Depending on price this gun has serious potential!!
wild_wild_wes
01-29-12, 22:37
Well I see they already have it ****ed up with a 16" barrel instead of the real 18" barrel.
You guys are behind on the times. The initial trial version of the TAVOR tested by the IDF, the TAR-21, had an 18" barrel, and there was also a 16" barrel model, the CTAR-21, which was going to be issued to commandos and SF troops. But amazingly, the version currently selected for general issue for all infantry, is the MTAR-21, which has a 13.0" barrel. The STAR-21, which has an 18" barrel, bipod, and ACOG, will be issued as a DM rifle to selected troops.
bondmid003
01-31-12, 09:07
Price will definitely make or break this rifle. If it goes the way of the ACR then I don't see things turning out well. If not count me in :D
Thanks. The manual of arms is the best I have seen for a bullpup.
One additional thought - FDE plastic housing.
Sorry for my hamfisted demo. It was the first time I had handl;ed it and the video was shot last day at SHOT Show after 4 days was walking around and talking to people.
You guys are behind on the times. The initial trial version of the TAVOR tested by the IDF, the TAR-21, had an 18" barrel, and there was also a 16" barrel model, the CTAR-21, which was going to be issued to commandos and SF troops. But amazingly, the version currently selected for general issue for all infantry, is the MTAR-21, which has a 13.0" barrel. The STAR-21, which has an 18" barrel, bipod, and ACOG, will be issued as a DM rifle to selected troops.
I have a slightly off-topic question: Will Israeli issue 5.56 frag at any range out of a 13" barrel on the X95/MTAR?
Failure2Stop
02-02-12, 13:17
I have a slightly off-topic question: Will Israeli issue 5.56 frag at any range out of a 13" barrel on the X95/MTAR?
The best place to ask this would be in our Terminal Effects sub-forum which is run by Dr. Gary Roberts, the foremost expert in the field of terminal ballistics, rather than a SHOT Show thread.
The best place to ask this would be in our Terminal Effects sub-forum which is run by Dr. Gary Roberts, the foremost expert in the field of terminal ballistics, rather than a SHOT Show thread.
Understood, thanks for the redirect.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
04-29-12, 20:12
I'm not saying the Tavor is better at all.
In fact, I see bullpups as the pinnacle of non-ergo asshattery, driven by engineers who have never really used a gun in a fight, as well as number crunchers who are idiots.
The FAMAS is an unfightable, non-ergo piece of shit that has zero adaptability.
How much trigger time do you have with the FAMAS F-1 ? I seriously doubt you have yet to touch a FAMAS & you obviously have no idea of the ergonomics, handling/ maneuverability. I spent 5 years in the French Foreign Legion's Elite 2e REP (2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment). I used the FAMAS F-1 for 5 years, including 2 tours in Afghanistan using the FAMAS F-1, knowing every part, being able to disassemble/ reassemble it blindfolded & the FAMAS by far is the best assault rifle/ bullpup i've ever used. It's shorter than an M4 with a 14.5" barrel & collapsed stock, & the FAMAS F-1 uses a 19.2" barrel & is 28.2" overall a great for vehicle use, airborne operations, & is as accurate as an M16A3 with a 20" barrel. Of the 5 years I spent sleeping, eating, cleaning, jumping out of C-130's & kicking in doors in Afghanistan the only downside i've seen with the FAMAS is that when I put on an Aimpoint M2 on top of the carry-handle it was a little too tall for a great cheek-weald. Although the new NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP (Low Profile) doing away with the large carry handle & adding a picitianny rail fixed that problem. Bottom line the FAMAS is anything but shit, shoot/ handle a firearm before judging it, I would rather have the FAMAS F-1 or the FAMAS F1 LP that the Tavor TAR-21, the French wouldn't have been using it since 71' if it wasn't a great bullpup/ assault rifle.
- Ret. First Classe Legionnaire István
if 1500 range I might be interested
still havent fallen for the SCAR hype because of the 2k+ price
the French wouldn't have been using it since 71' if it wasn't a great bullpup/ assault rifle.
- Ret. First Classe Legionnaire István
I am in no way arguing with your experience, but I will say in my experience , just because a military or group uses a weapon doesn't always have anything to do with whether it is good or not. Often it is good enough by the bean counters standards and the troops have to endure the short comings.
Larry Vickers
04-30-12, 08:32
H_L
Thanx for your input; I have heard reports the French military was pleased with the FAMAS and to be honest I can see why- I have one of the semi auto FAMAS F1's that was imported into the USA back in the day- they are EXTREMELY rare in this country and when they sell nowadays they go for over $10,000 - I have used one on my show and I liked it- it handles very well, has mild recoil and was accurate
Not only does it have some neat design features, such as the ability to switch it to left hand eject with no extra parts or special tools, but it is also well made
Of course I am used to the M4 and prefer it but I would not feel less than adequately armed with a FAMAS
Very cool gun - glad I have mine and it is definately NOT for sale
Cheers
Larry
Hungarian_Legionnaire
04-30-12, 15:03
I am in no way arguing with your experience, but I will say in my experience , just because a military or group uses a weapon doesn't always have anything to do with whether it is good or not. Often it is good enough by the bean counters standards and the troops have to endure the short comings.
In the 5 years I spent with the FAMAS F-1 the only problem I had with the way optics were mounted to the carry handle & made it too high, was fixed with the FAMAS F1 LP's rail. As to the topic, the M16/M4 wasn't doing it for Israeli so they ditched it for the Tavor TAR-21 because of the M16/M4's short comings.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
04-30-12, 15:34
H_L
Thanx for your input; I have heard reports the French military was pleased with the FAMAS and to be honest I can see why- I have one of the semi auto FAMAS F1's that was imported into the USA back in the day- they are EXTREMELY rare in this country and when they sell nowadays they go for over $10,000 - I have used one on my show and I liked it- it handles very well, has mild recoil and was accurate
Not only does it have some neat design features, such as the ability to switch it to left hand eject with no extra parts or special tools, but it is also well made
Of course I am used to the M4 and prefer it but I would not feel less than adequately armed with a FAMAS
Very cool gun - glad I have mine and it is definately NOT for sale
Cheers
Larry
Wow, I can't believe I received a message from you, I love your shows, I also recall seeing you on a BullpupForum video talking about the Tavor & your love for Bullpups & that you have one of the early GIAT MAS .223's civvis. When you compared the M4 to the FAMAS F-1 on Weaponology: French Foreign Legion were you in France firing the auto FAMAS F-1? You're lucky to have that MAS .223, I saw one on GB going for $25k & it sold. I think thats what is going to happen to the Tavor when it finally is on the market, I don't think they are going to last long, then 15-20 years from now they are going to be priced like the Century MAS .223 is. For some reason I find many Americans dislike the Bullpup design, i've always loved it & was more than happy to use the FAMAS when I was in La Legion. Do you know any more about the Tavor than you did when you were interviewed by BullpupForum? Thanks for the message Larry, i've always looked up to you as a fellow Operator, although the Legion's elite 2e REP isn't anything like Delta. BTW, did you ever train or operate with any Legionnaires when you were in the Army?
- István
+1 on the Famas.....great little rifle....
Posts like LAV's and H_L's are what makes this board so great. Thank you gentlemen for your service and your thoughts on the FAMAS. I wish we could get more of them in the USA.
I have high hopes for the Tavor...
Larry Vickers
04-30-12, 21:24
H_L
Thanx for the kind words; never did any training in the Army with the Legion or French troops at all in fact- we filmed the weaponology piece near my house in North Carolina- funny story; the film crew were British and because of that not gun savvy at all- it was super hot when we filmed that stuff in early Sept - I was shooting my FAMAS and behind me off camera the director was swatting at the empty cases flying by - then he grabbed one ; with the ambient temperature of almost 100 degrees just imagine how hot that was! After he dropped it he had a diagonal scorched imprint of a 5.56mm case across his fingers!
I'll bet he never did that again!
Hey I got a question- do you think there is any way to get the NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP upgrade kit for my FAMAS? It would be great to have the ability to upgrade it to current specs. Nothing new on the Tavor other than what you read here on M4C- cant wait to get one myself
Be safe
LAV
In the 5 years I spent with the FAMAS F-1 the only problem I had with the way optics were mounted to the carry handle & made it too high, was fixed with the FAMAS F1 LP's rail. As to the topic, the M16/M4 wasn't doing it for Israeli so they ditched it for the Tavor TAR-21 because of the M16/M4's short comings.
Like I said, I was not arguing or even disagreeing. Especially since I have no trigger time on the FAMAS, I was just making a point. Glad to have you here on M4.
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
05-01-12, 14:14
I'd certainly pick one up as a reference piece. Does anyone know if the US version will be designed the same as the Israeli where the barrel detaches with the top rail so as not to affect zeroed optics when field stripping or for caliber conversions (if those become available)?
Don't have any additional info on what final product will look like But definitely want a Tavor and will get one when they become available as long as they don't screw up the design somehow.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
05-04-12, 08:36
H_L
Thanx for the kind words; never did any training in the Army with the Legion or French troops at all in fact- we filmed the weaponology piece near my house in North Carolina- funny story; the film crew were British and because of that not gun savvy at all- it was super hot when we filmed that stuff in early Sept - I was shooting my FAMAS and behind me off camera the director was swatting at the empty cases flying by - then he grabbed one ; with the ambient temperature of almost 100 degrees just imagine how hot that was! After he dropped it he had a diagonal scorched imprint of a 5.56mm case across his fingers!
I'll bet he never did that again!
Hey I got a question- do you think there is any way to get the NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP upgrade kit for my FAMAS? It would be great to have the ability to upgrade it to current specs. Nothing new on the Tavor other than what you read here on M4C- cant wait to get one myself
Be safe
LAV
Thanks for sharing that story with me, I wonder if the Brit still has the casing of a 5.56 NATO scared in his hand?
As for the GIAT/ Century MAS .223 conversion to the NEXTER F1 LP carry-handle conversion i'm not sure you could get one in to the States, also their are many things that would have to be changed on your MAS .223, like the removal of the front & rear irons, the charging handle is no longer curved & vertical on the F1 LP there is a small gap between the top of the Mil-Std picatinny rail & the charging handle which has been changed to an ambi side charging handle, & the bipod legs are now have a curved in them & when folded up go back just underneath the ejector. What's nice is that there is also a small section of rail in front of the bipod. Unfortunately these mainly come out from NEXTER (former GIAT) as the F1 LP because many of the FAMAS F-1's are very beat up, I could make some calls for you to see if it is possible to have the few parts needed to do the carry handle conversion imported. I'll message you as soon as I find out.
The F1 LP makes mounting any optic so much easier than mounting them on the carry handle of the F-1, where you literally can't get a cheek-weld on the stock. HERE is what it would look like with the NEXTER conversion.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/NEXTERFAMASF1LP-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/NEXTERFAMASF1LP.jpg
- István
Larry Vickers
05-06-12, 06:53
H_L
Thanx for the message- if you could convince NEXTER to do it I would have it on my TV show for sure
All the stuff you mention is easily importable as none of it are restricted items or would need an import license like a barrel or receiver - if they would do it they could literally throw it in a box and mail it to me
If it helps let them know my Century FAMAS is in mint unaltered condition
Be safe
LAV
wild_wild_wes
05-06-12, 11:31
I had a FAMAS but really didn't care for it. But I should have held on to it if they go for 10k now. I only got 4k for mine. Oops.
I noted the following negatives about the rifle: The sights were very crude. The barrel was not chromed, and mine had one persistent rust spot that kept re-appearing. The trigger pack that came with mine was extremely bad, but the gun store owner was a friend and let me switch it with another he had. That being said, it was not a bad rifle. I had money issues then and sold it to pay for my last year of college, but if I had it now I would definitely keep it, if only for the curio factor. But, it has nothing over an M4.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
05-07-12, 15:22
I had a FAMAS but really didn't care for it. But I should have held on to it if they go for 10k now. I only got 4k for mine. Oops.
I noted the following negatives about the rifle: The sights were very crude. The barrel was not chromed, and mine had one persistent rust spot that kept re-appearing. The trigger pack that came with mine was extremely bad, but the gun store owner was a friend and let me switch it with another he had. That being said, it was not a bad rifle. I had money issues then and sold it to pay for my last year of college, but if I had it now I would definitely keep it, if only for the curio factor. But, it has nothing over an M4.
I would LOVE to have a GIAT MAS .223 you really should have held on to that, they use to go for 10k, the last GIAT MAS .223 I saw on GunBroker went for 25K (though it was NIB with all accessories). A MAS .223 would be nice to have as a ex Legionnaire, I miss Le Clairon.
As for the FAMAS F-1 not having anything on an M4 you have it all wrong, the FAMAS is an amazing Military, assault rifle/ bullpup. It has a 19.2 in barrel with an overall length of 29.8 in, it has a longer barrel than the M4 & is more compact than an M4A1 with the stock collapsed & is just as accurate, with irons I scored Expert on my quals in La Legion. I'm sure the Tavor TAR-21 will also be just as good as a Military M4 with a rack grade trigger.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
05-07-12, 16:12
H_L
Thanx for the message- if you could convince NEXTER to do it I would have it on my TV show for sure
All the stuff you mention is easily importable as none of it are restricted items or would need an import license like a barrel or receiver - if they would do it they could literally throw it in a box and mail it to me
If it helps let them know my Century FAMAS is in mint unaltered condition
Be safe
LAV
Yeah, all the parts are just cosmetic changes except for the ambi charging handle I don't see why NEXTER wouldn't be able to send the F1 LP upgrade kit to the States, other than it's just a matter of them being strictly Military arms manufacture. I hope with my 5 years in the REP they will be able to work something out with me, as soon as I here back from them I'll message you. I would like to see your GIAT MAS .223 with the NEXTER kit & the Tavor TAR-21 on your show... Anything in-particular your working on for a new episode?
You know if you ever need a Legionnaire on your show i'd be more than happy to don my Kepi, I have my complete dress uniform & 2 sets of fatigues one OD & the other F2 camo, I also have my 2e REP green beret & my last pair of rangers which are almost new. I was lucky to be able to keep a lot of my kit when I finished my contract, I wish I was able to take my issue FAMAS F-1 as well.
- István
la-li-lu-le-lo
06-20-12, 19:23
Ay chance we'll see a Galil?
Any chance we'll see a Galil?
Yes, but probably not until 2014. It will be a modernized Galil that will be known as the ACE; in .308 Win, 5.56 NATO and 7.62X39mm.
Yes, but probably not until 2014. It will be a modernized Galil that will be known as the ACE; in .308 Win, 5.56 NATO and 7.62X39mm.
Good to see you over here. :)
Yes, but probably not until 2014. It will be a modernized Galil that will be known as the ACE; in .308 Win, 5.56 NATO and 7.62X39mm.
Thats fantastic news. Any speculation as to price?
Thats fantastic news. Any speculation as to price?
No, way too soon.
Any possible update on when they will start hitting the stores or possibly when orders/preorders can be sent in and to who?
Any possible update on when they will start hitting the stores or possibly when orders/preorders can be sent in and to who?
The Tavor should be in stores this October/November. IWI US is not yet accepting orders/pre-orders. When they will accept them they will let the world know through the soon to be launched website (www.iwi.us) and through posts on this forum and others.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-22-12, 04:23
The Tavor should be in stores this October/November. IWI US is not yet accepting orders/pre-orders. When they will accept them they will let the world know through the soon to be launched website (www.iwi.us) and through posts on this forum and others.
Are there still going to be two different variations of the Tavor coming out? One that has the mono-rail & the other that is configured like the IDF version with the M-21 optic? Also has their been a set price or any further news about the Tavor, I haven't herd anything since it was announced at SHOT Show, thanks for your presents on this forum, great to have you here.
No, way too soon.
Thats what I thought.
Fighting Tenth
06-24-12, 02:19
I had a Tavor for approximately a year and a half. In that time I put maybe a thousand rounds through it. Ran like a champ with all of the ammo I used; C77, M193 and hand loads mostly. As a lefty, I converted it over to left hand drive; something that is most definitely not easily done in the field.
While I think it is a decent example of a bullpup service rifle, I was less than impressed with it's accuracy, and it didn't see much use so I dumped it.
If you have an affinity for differing service rifles and appreciate those individual designs, this is one for the collection.
If you are a shooter who generally sticks with the same tools and may be looking for a better mousetrap, this most definitely is not the rifle for you (imho).
Mauser KAR98K
06-24-12, 17:15
Guess I know what I'm getting later this year.
Just got to save some money
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-24-12, 19:56
I had a Tavor for approximately a year and a half. In that time I put maybe a thousand rounds through it. Ran like a champ with all of the ammo I used; C77, M193 and hand loads mostly. As a lefty, I converted it over to left hand drive; something that is most definitely not easily done in the field.
While I think it is a decent example of a bullpup service rifle, I was less than impressed with it's accuracy, and it didn't see much use so I dumped it.
If you have an affinity for differing service rifles and appreciate those individual designs, this is one for the collection.
If you are a shooter who generally sticks with the same tools and may be looking for a better mousetrap, this most definitely is not the rifle for you (imho).
How have you had a Tavor for over a year, do you live in Canada? As for the Tavor it self, were you just bored with it? I don't really understand how you seem to have had a bullpup that a LOT of people want & just got tired of it & sold it... But I guess when you want it & can't have it, that makes you want it even more, but then when you have it, you want something else. I want the Tavor, but not as much as I want my FAMAS F-1 back.
How have you had a Tavor for over a year, do you live in Canada? As for the Tavor it self, were you just bored with it? I don't really understand how you seem to have had a bullpup that a LOT of people want & just got tired of it & sold it... But I guess when you want it & can't have it, that makes you want it even more, but then when you have it, you want something else. I want the Tavor, but not as much as I want my FAMAS F-1 back.
A clue to you might be that the "Fighting Tenth" is the 10th CEF, as in Canadian Expeditionary Force.
A clue to you might be that the "Fighting Tenth" is the 10th CEF, as in Canadian Expeditionary Force.
You say it as if knowing that is common knowledge. the guy you quoted even asked if he was canadian. you could have just said yes he is, then explain how you knew instead of just coming off as an asshole.
I don't really understand how you seem to have had a bullpup that a LOT of people want & just got tired of it & sold it... But I guess when you want it & can't have it, that makes you want it even more, but then when you have it, you want something else. I want the Tavor, but not as much as I want my FAMAS F-1 back.
Everyone in the US wants a Tavor because of the import ban.
That guy is in Canada where Tavors are legal.
He got rid of it because it isn't superior to an AR-15 and would not be the choice for the "go to" gun.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-25-12, 14:11
A clue to you might be that the "Fighting Tenth" is the 10th CEF, as in Canadian Expeditionary Force.
It was a question, no need to be a smart ass, I don't keep up on Canadian military units or their quotes, i've never herd of "Fighting Tenth" or CEF... According to Wiki, The 10th Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Forces was only active from 19141920.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-25-12, 14:18
You say it as if knowing that is common knowledge. the guy you quoted even asked if he was canadian. you could have just said yes he is, then explain how you knew instead of just coming off as an asshole.
Thanks man, my point exactly... there's no need to be an asshole over Canadian military quotes, as if everyone knows, or should know what they are & in reference to & their corresponding regiments.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-25-12, 14:39
Everyone in the US wants a Tavor because of the import ban.
That guy is in Canada where Tavors are legal.
He got rid of it because it isn't superior to an AR-15 and would not be the choice for the "go to" gun.
I disagree, if the country with the most conflicts chose to replace their M16 & M4s with the Tavor TAR-21, it must have been for a good reason, its Israel's "go to gun". As a vet of Afghanistan & ex French Foreign Legionnaire I used a FAMAS F-1 for 5 years in The REP & the FAMAS is a design from 67', & still in use in several countries. I like & own AR's but find bullpups to be a superior design, although I would like to see a better trigger on bullpups someday.
Javelinadave
06-29-12, 00:02
I'm absolutely not a bullpup fan but I have over the years collected one of every Israeli weapon that I could get my hands on. I still have room for a Tavor in my safe.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
06-29-12, 03:09
I'm absolutely not a bullpup fan but I have over the years collected one of every Israeli weapon that I could get my hands on. I still have room for a Tavor in my safe.
So your purchase of the IWI Tavor Tar-21 will just a space to fill in your Israeli Military weapon collection?
Fighting Tenth
07-01-12, 01:24
I disagree, if the country with the most conflicts chose to replace their M16 & M4s with the Tavor TAR-21, it must have been for a good reason, its Israel's "go to gun". As a vet of Afghanistan & ex French Foreign Legionnaire I used a FAMAS F-1 for 5 years in The REP & the FAMAS is a design from 67', & still in use in several countries. I like & own AR's but find bullpups to be a superior design, although I would like to see a better trigger on bullpups someday.
Sorry for the late reply; yes I'm in Canada.
As much as I'd love to have my own pattern room, bills still need to be paid:mad:.
I don't think it was any one thing that led me to get rid of it other than lack of use.
I'm a bit of an accuracy nut when it comes to service rifles. If it can't hold 2moa or better, it usually sits in the lockup and eventually finds a new owner.
As to the superiority of bullpups over conventional rifles like the AR fow, I might agree with that statement in theory, but not in practice.
The FS2000 I had, despite it's own quarks, was considerably more accurate than the Tavor, and offers a truly ambidextrous platform without modification. There are interesting and innovative concepts to both firearms though. I think bullpups have come a long way, but they still have much room for improvement (if guns were like dogs I think I'd mate a Tavor with an F2000...).
I'd like to think one day I'll rekindle a relationship with one and get on with it, but for now my ARs and Sig 55xs fill my needs.
good information, thank you.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
07-22-12, 22:10
Does anyone have any NEW information on the Tavor? It seems like SHOT Show was the only info that everything is based off of now, I'd like to know when TWA or IWI will release info on the variations that are going to be available & most of all price, for something that is suppose to be released in 2-3 months very little is know.
Does anyone have any NEW information on the Tavor? It seems like SHOT Show was the only info that everything is based off of now, I'd like to know when TWA or IWI will release info on the variations that are going to be available & most of all price, for something that is suppose to be released in 2-3 months very little is know.
well if it makes you feel any better, S&W didn't release any info on the Shield until it was practically on store shelves.
bnanaphone
07-24-12, 10:39
Hungarian Legionnaire, check your PMs.
Does anyone have any NEW information on the Tavor? It seems like SHOT Show was the only info that everything is based off of now, I'd like to know when TWA or IWI will release info on the variations that are going to be available & most of all price, for something that is suppose to be released in 2-3 months very little is know.
Yeah, what he said. Any new info? I've tried scouring the Web to no avail.
-Cheers
Littlelebowski
07-30-12, 20:38
I disagree, if the country with the most conflicts chose to replace their M16 & M4s with the Tavor TAR-21, it must have been for a good reason, its Israel's "go to gun". As a vet of Afghanistan & ex French Foreign Legionnaire I used a FAMAS F-1 for 5 years in The REP & the FAMAS is a design from 67', & still in use in several countries. I like & own AR's but find bullpups to be a superior design, although I would like to see a better trigger on bullpups someday.
The US is way ahead of Israel on actual trigger time right now.
Venice Will
08-10-12, 13:31
...don't mean to be redundant...but anyone heard the WHEN and WHERE these will be available?
Is there a website that can be tapped or email address where info can be obtained?
Been waiting on this puppy (should be "bull-puppy") since its conception...
BRING IT ON!!! I have a birthday coming...and then there's Christmas ...for the next couple of years :D
...don't mean to be redundant...but anyone heard the WHEN and WHERE these will be available?
Is there a website that can be tapped or email address where info can be obtained?
Been waiting on this puppy (should be "bull-puppy") since its conception...
BRING IT ON!!! I have a birthday coming...and then there's Christmas ...for the next couple of years :D
Earlier in the thread it has been stated by TWA that there will be a website but as of today it is like the Tavor, vapor ware. Lots of speculation on BullpupForum , ARFCOM, etc on Tavor but except for info from Shot Show not a lot has been released (probably due to confidentiality agreements). While the last report in early Aug said IWI had received their FFL so they could start production, nothing else since then. Lots of people looking for information, but especially in the digital age when things happen instantly, getting good intel on the Tavor moves about the same speed as drying paint.:secret:
My vote too for vaporware. This happens all the time in gun industry. Either the gun is way over rated, overpriced, over hyped and fails to meet expectation (the SCAR and Masada come to mind). Or, its sales are based around the idiot gun owner market (tier 3 ARs and the Ruger Judge). It seems to be very hard to make a military grade weapon at a competitive price.
While the last report in early Aug said IWI had received their FFL so they could start production, nothing else since then.
To be fair, that was only 10 days ago. There's probably not a lot to report on between now and then. Last he mentioned, they were still on track to reach their target time-frame of late-October/November.
To be fair, that was only 10 days ago. There's probably not a lot to report on between now and then. Last he mentioned, they were still on track to reach their target time-frame of late-October/November.
Didn't mean to sound so pessimistic but can see how I came across that way based on the rest of my post. I was trying primarily to summarize info so far. Also agree 10 days between info really isn't that long (except for those of us checking the forum 100 times a day looking for updates:fie:). Just getting antsy for the Tavor to come out and hope there will be enough available to not have to pay outrageous markups to get one (think SCAR, ACR and now ATI STG-44 .22). Seriously think I need to get a life. :smile:
I'm an optimist. With all this prep work, I think we'll see it in the reasonably near future. Granted, I have no real evidence to back that up :p just keeping the good vibe going.
As an aside, have they even hinted what the MSRP will be in the U.S.? I read they go close to $3k in Canada. I want one, however that's out of my range.
Didn't mean to sound so pessimistic but can see how I came across that way based on the rest of my post. I was trying primarily to summarize info so far. Also agree 10 days between info really isn't that long (except for those of us checking the forum 100 times a day looking for updates:fie:). Just getting antsy for the Tavor to come out and hope there will be enough available to not have to pay outrageous markups to get one (think SCAR, ACR and now ATI STG-44 .22). Seriously think I need to get a life. :smile:
Well, the ACR has come done in price and the aftermarket items seem to (finally) be opening up, but I hear you. It is kind of refreshing that Beretta is throwing an MSRP of "well below $2,000" as a guesstimate. Who knows, still it's nice to see them shoot for a more reasonable price point. I have not heard that of the Tavor, however I'm hoping the U.S. gets friend prices IMI a/o they try to price it competitively with the AR/ACR/SCAR/etc. It might not sell as well as an AR because, well, it's not an AR and bullpups are not known for flying off the shelves, however I think this could definitely have a following. I mean, it's an Israeli rifle with a solid ten year service record that has some favorable reviews to the AR-15 out there if you look for them. I'd totally love to have one.
FWIW, I need to get a life too. I feel like I know way too much about this thing. I should go to the rifle range, or mow my yard or something.
As an aside, if you email Trans World Arms, you can get on their email list for info if/when the Tavor comes out. Maybe there is some other way to get on a listserv or something more directly. But if you're a nerd like me, you can email and ask to sign up.
-Cheers
Already on the Bullpup Forum group buy list. Just waiting for product to arrive. Hopefully not much longer with the plant hopefully moving forward. Already seeing where the new AUG 's are getting ready to hit the market within the next couple of weeks. :secret:
I'm an optimist. With all this prep work, I think we'll see it in the reasonably near future. Granted, I have no real evidence to back that up :p just keeping the good vibe going.
As an aside, have they even hinted what the MSRP will be in the U.S.? I read they go close to $3k in Canada. I want one, however that's out of my range.
Well, the ACR has come done in price and the aftermarket items seem to (finally) be opening up, but I hear you. It is kind of refreshing that Beretta is throwing an MSRP of "well below $2,000" as a guesstimate. Who knows, still it's nice to see them shoot for a more reasonable price point. I have not heard that of the Tavor, however I'm hoping the U.S. gets friend prices IMI a/o they try to price it competitively with the AR/ACR/SCAR/etc. It might not sell as well as an AR because, well, it's not an AR and bullpups are not known for flying off the shelves, however I think this could definitely have a following. I mean, it's an Israeli rifle with a solid ten year service record that has some favorable reviews to the AR-15 out there if you look for them. I'd totally love to have one.
FWIW, I need to get a life too. I feel like I know way too much about this thing. I should go to the rifle range, or mow my yard or something.
As an aside, if you email Trans World Arms, you can get on their email list for info if/when the Tavor comes out. Maybe there is some other way to get on a listserv or something more directly. But if you're a nerd like me, you can email and ask to sign up.
-Cheers
As an aside, have they even hinted what the MSRP will be in the U.S.? I read they go close to $3k in Canada. I want one, however that's out of my range.
I believe a price of around $2,000 was mentioned.
Venice Will
08-13-12, 15:58
WHERE can I find the "Bullpup Forum group buy list"???
Thanks
Venice Will
Here is the link:
http://bullpupforum.com/index.phptopic=496.msg6413;topicseen#new
Here is the link:
http://bullpupforum.com/index.phptopic=496.msg6413;topicseen#new
What he said. Although his link didn't work for me, I'm sure it's the same thread as the below link (hopefully one of these links works for you):
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=gj57385njtvvmv2s6dafrhoiv2&topic=496.0
-Cheers
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-25-12, 19:20
What are the chances that THIS bullpup will have the staying power behind it? In the States, most Americans seem to dislike the bullpup design & they just don't sell enough to stay around long enough like the Steyr AUG A3 & MSAR STG-556, FNH FS2000 & Kel Tec's RFB. They either sit on a gun shops rack at very high prices with no demand & no aftermarket support or go bankrupt, it's sad. If the US was more accepting of the bullpup design there may be more available giving foreign companies like IWI or GIAT/NEXTER more of an incentive to bring more bullpups in to the States. As a former Legionnaire & Vet of "Le Stan", I would love to own the bullpup that I used in combat & that saved my life on more than one occasion, I've spent many years training with, cleaning & lugging around my FAMAS F-1, it was with me threw everything from earning my Kepi Blanc to making it on to Le 2eREP (2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment) making all those jumps with me, my FAMAS was just as Airborne qualified as I am. I wish I was able to take the FAMAS F-1 I was issued & have it converted to semi-auto, because anyone who has gone threw hell & back with a rifle knows just how special that specific rifle is to you... I hope other bullpup manufactures follow IWI & make more bullpups in the US, of course I would love to see France bring back the FAMAS F-1, I know there was around 1,000 GIAT MAS .223's imported by Century from France back in 89'-90', (The FAMAS Larry Vickers owns & I wish I had, he has had it on many shows). If you are able to find a GIAT MAS .223 they are in the $20,000 range with NO replacement parts or extra mags.
I hope that the Tavor TAR-21 will be reasonably priced & have a aftermarket following post launch, as well as support from IWI/ TWA or else I fear the Tavor will disappear & just be forgotten (Like the FNH FS2K) in a gun shop that will have one in stock that just sits on display for MSRP collecting dust, after the collectors & people like my self & many others on here who have wanted the Tavor for the last 10+ years to come to the States... I'd still rather have a new NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP, the new FAMAS that has removed the large carry-handle & opted for a Low Profile Picatinny rail, horizontally mounted charging handle that can be moved from right to left side & use of 30rd STANAG mags, no longer the 25rd mags from the 70's.
Larry Vickers
08-26-12, 04:46
The number I was told on semi auto FAMAS rifles imported and sold by Century is approx 150- to be honest that seems high to me based on the few that pop up for sale once in a great while
No matter what definately no where near 1,000 where ever imported for sale in the USA
Just an FYI
Cheers
LAV
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-26-12, 07:10
The number I was told on semi auto FAMAS rifles imported and sold by Century is approx 150- to be honest that seems high to me based on the few that pop up for sale once in a great while
No matter what definately no where near 1,000 where ever imported for sale in the USA
Just an FYI
Cheers
LAV
I know back when the GIAT MAS .223 was imported it was also the first times the Steyr AUG was also imported, around 200+ Steyr AUG A1's selling for $650 with the non-removeable caryhandle optic & 5 mags, there were only 100/120 MAS .223's that (at the time) were only $995 (I need a time machine). Thanks for the clarification Mr. Vickers. I know one other person that owned a MAS .223 from GunBoards.com named Buddy, he purchased one of the 1st MAS .223's back in 88' & did a whole write up about it, unfortunately he no longer owns his MAS .223. I guess he got bored with a rifle that you can't do anything to, but that's just how it was in Le Légion & I would love to see GIAT/ NEXTER do what IWI is doing & produce a semi-auto FAMAS F1/ F1 Lp, do you think that could be a possibility Larry?
I sent a few emails to NEXTER about getting that FAMAS F1 LP conversion kit for your GIAT semi-auto FAMAS F-1, I didn't here back from them, I guess you're only somewhat important when your an active Legionnaire serving France, afterwards you're just another étrangčre, c'est la vie.
- István
What are the chances that THIS bullpup will have the staying power behind it?
This is a total unqualified guess. However, I would say pretty decent depending on what you mean by "staying power."
I doubt anything will knock the AR-15/M4 platform from America's top perch anytime soon. The M4/M16 is what the military is used to, there's a ton of everything for it, and it's what Americans have grown to love.
That said . . . The Tavor has a lot of hype, looks closer to what people seem to want a rifle to look like (I think looks matter more in sales than they should), and the fact it's what the Israeli's use and have used for ten years gives it a lot of credibility. Mostly though, I think it will find a niche because there seems to be some hype, it's been a decade in the coming, and you have a platform that was built to replace the M16 that seems to have done a pretty good job from what reports one is able to glean from the Internet (or if you're in Canada). I think the availability and price will have a lot to say about how well it makes an impact on U.S. buyers.
In the States, most Americans seem to dislike the bullpup design & they just don't sell enough to stay around long enough like the Steyr AUG A3 & MSAR STG-556, FNH FS2000 & Kel Tec's RFB.
Well, part of that is exposure. Most Americans don't kow anything about AUG or MSAR, maybe if they own a PS3 or XBox. FNH is supposed to be great, however they are pricey, not known for best civilian CS (on the Internet, never owned one so that's 2nd hand info at best), and Kel Tec is not necessarily as sexy a brand as FNH or any of the better known manufacturers. Still, how many people knew about those guns before they ended up on the walls of American gun shops?
Also, most people like what the military is using. Not people like you who actually know these weapons and had your FAMAS save your butt, people just looking for a fun gun rather than taking to active service. Then vets tend to like what they've used. In the U.S., that generally means an M16-style, although my dad's an M14 guy (Vietnam era).
One thing the Tavor has going for it is it's a rifle that Israelis use in urban combat, which will add to the cool factor (for better or for worse), it has a decade or development so should have the bugs worked out. And it's been in Canada for a while so we have our neighbors to the north who might be able to export parts to us in worst case scenario. At minimal, it has provided proof it can sell in a country probably culturally as close to the U.S. as any other, for whatever that means.
As a former Legionnaire & Vet of "Le Stan", I would love to own the bullpup that I used in combat & that saved my life on more than one occasion, I've spent many years training with, cleaning & lugging around my FAMAS F-1, it was with me threw everything from earning my Kepi Blanc to making it on to Le 2eREP (2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment) making all those jumps with me, my FAMAS was just as Airborne qualified as I am.
Cool story. It's nice to get input from people with that kind of experience. As an aside, I think the NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP would have a better chance of selling in the U.S. because it looks more like what Americans expect a gun to look like. Going from the picture I could find at least. The carrying handle on FAMAS I've seen looks very bulky, clunky, and heavy. Looks should probably never come into play in something like a combat rifle (or any tool that might save your life), however I would bet money that it does.
Anyway, I think the Tavor has a shot. It has enough buzz and history, while having been developed with replacing the M4 in mind, it seems like this might be the one to stick. Get enough out there at a decent price, get publicity and good word of mouth, and I think it really might find a niche in the market. I'm hopeful at any rate.
-Cheers
They either sit on a gun shops rack at very high prices with no demand & no aftermarket support or go bankrupt, it's sad.
The key phrase is "sit at very high prices." Again, none of the designs you mention are so good that they can demand the prices being asked. A quality AR can be had for $1200. Where then is the market for a $2000 rifle that only offers a few advantages with various accompanying disadvantages?
Most Americans have a pretty good understanding of the AR manual of arms. Bullpups have a certain manual of arms that most people have never been training in or have even seem demonstrated. This also frustrates bullpup sales. To get past the niche collectors market any new rifle (SCAR, Masada, Tavor, et al) must be price competitive against what is already in common use. Or, it must offer a significant improvement over existing systems.
I look forward to seeing the Tavor hit the shelves. Personally, I see this happening sometime in November. But at anything over $1200-1500 you can count on very limited sales.
For what it's worth, I wish straight 25rd AR mags were more available.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-26-12, 14:53
This is a total unqualified guess. However, I would say pretty decent depending on what you mean by "staying power."
I doubt anything will knock the AR-15/M4 platform from America's top perch anytime soon. The M4/M16 is what the military is used to, there's a ton of everything for it, and it's what Americans have grown to love.
That said . . . The Tavor has a lot of hype, looks closer to what people seem to want a rifle to look like (I think looks matter more in sales than they should), and the fact it's what the Israeli's use and have used for ten years gives it a lot of credibility. Mostly though, I think it will find a niche because there seems to be some hype, it's been a decade in the coming, and you have a platform that was built to replace the M16 that seems to have done a pretty good job from what reports one is able to glean from the Internet (or if you're in Canada). I think the availability and price will have a lot to say about how well it makes an impact on U.S. buyers.
Well, part of that is exposure. Most Americans don't kow anything about AUG or MSAR, maybe if they own a PS3 or XBox. FNH is supposed to be great, however they are pricey, not known for best civilian CS (on the Internet, never owned one so that's 2nd hand info at best), and Kel Tec is not necessarily as sexy a brand as FNH or any of the better known manufacturers. Still, how many people knew about those guns before they ended up on the walls of American gun shops?
Also, most people like what the military is using. Not people like you who actually know these weapons and had your FAMAS save your butt, people just looking for a fun gun rather than taking to active service. Then vets tend to like what they've used. In the U.S., that generally means an M16-style, although my dad's an M14 guy (Vietnam era).
One thing the Tavor has going for it is it's a rifle that Israelis use in urban combat, which will add to the cool factor (for better or for worse), it has a decade or development so should have the bugs worked out. And it's been in Canada for a while so we have our neighbors to the north who might be able to export parts to us in worst case scenario. At minimal, it has provided proof it can sell in a country probably culturally as close to the U.S. as any other, for whatever that means.
Cool story. It's nice to get input from people with that kind of experience. As an aside, I think the NEXTER FAMAS F1 LP would have a better chance of selling in the U.S. because it looks more like what Americans expect a gun to look like. Going from the picture I could find at least. The carrying handle on FAMAS I've seen looks very bulky, clunky, and heavy. Looks should probably never come into play in something like a combat rifle (or any tool that might save your life), however I would bet money that it does.
Anyway, I think the Tavor has a shot. It has enough buzz and history, while having been developed with replacing the M4 in mind, it seems like this might be the one to stick. Get enough out there at a decent price, get publicity and good word of mouth, and I think it really might find a niche in the market. I'm hopeful at any rate.
-Cheers
Dave, I appreciate your breakdown of my long comment, questions, a little about my self & concerns. I too believe the Tavor TAR-21 has much going for it as it has already replaced both the M4A1 & M16A4 for the most part of a decade. Which has given the Tavor ample time to work out any issues, the TAR-21 has been used by the IDF & Israeli Army in which is arguably the most hostile country in the world as it's surrounded by enemies who want their land & may strike anytime, so Israeli needs to constantly have it's "head on a swivel", because they are attacked all the time.
Knowing that Israeli is a military country & their 10+ years & millions of dollars put in to R&D for this bullpup to be more than just a replacement for the AR family defiantly sits well with me. I just wish they had it in the US much sooner, (I haven't even seen ANY gun magazine mention it) & they usually get a firearm for T&E (Has anyone seen a T&E Review of the TAVOR TAR-21 for US civvi purchase?)
As for the FNH FS2000, I think it's a pretty cool looking bullpup, it has a unique means of ejection & has SOME aftermarket support like it's replaceable tri-rail which IMO makes it look even better I think having a premaritally pinned muzzle brake & non-dropp-free mag sucked, even though there was an way way around it & even though the FS2K came in Black & Olive Drab & one had a hideous 1.5x optic instead of the Tacti-Cool monolithic picatinny rail w/ FN's Tri-Rail the FS2000 just collected dust at $1,700 - $2,000.
As for the FAMAS F1 LP would defiantly do much better in US sales due to it's update from the original GIAT FAMAS F-1 which has been around since 1978, still using the same 25rd mags, large carryhandle & very difficult to mount an M68 CCO to it, instead of having to use a chinweld I would just use the irons underneath the Aimpoint, use of a RDS in Le Stan would have made target acquisition a lot easier for many Legionnaires, NEXTER has taken the FAMAS F1 LP out of the 70's, & I was lucky enough to be in the first REG to field the new FAMAS. I just wish I knew how to get the French Gov to sell semi-auto FAMAS F1 LP's to civvies in the States like IWI is doing... Though I think it will take years, it seems like it would be a lot less of a headache to have a great manufacture make a US FAMAS, either that or go bankrupt trying to find one of the 120 Century GIAT MAS .223's that run $15,000 - $20,000 & have no mags or spare parts for it.
HERE: is a 1989 Century Imported GIAT MAS .223 in perfect condition with a cleaning kit spare parts & mags (God I want this)
:dirol: :dirol:http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/GIATMAS.jpg:dirol: :dirol:
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-26-12, 15:32
The number I was told on semi auto FAMAS rifles imported and sold by Century is approx 150- to be honest that seems high to me based on the few that pop up for sale once in a great while
No matter what definately no where near 1,000 where ever imported for sale in the USA
Just an FYI
Cheers
LAV
Larry, if you have tried to mount any optics like this M68 CCO to your GIAT MAS .223 i'm sure you opted for the same result as most Legionnaires, just use the irons...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/IstvanFAMASF-1BlancM68CCO.jpg
(Shooting blanks with FAMAS F-1 with M68 CCO, but using the irons)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/FAMASF-1M68CCOIrons.jpg
(just leave the M68 CCO lens covers on & use the irons)
...I can't wait to actually get a cheakweld on the Tavor TAR-21 with my 2MOA Micro T-1:happy:
Larry Vickers
08-26-12, 20:11
I use mine box stock - I didn't even put on the issue sling as the buckle started to scratch the finish of the bipod
Mine has probably max 100 rds thru it and is in mint condition - I was able to get some mags so I have about 5-6 mags for it
Be safe
LAV
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-27-12, 00:54
The key phrase is "sit at very high prices." Again, none of the designs you mention are so good that they can demand the prices being asked. A quality AR can be had for $1200. Where then is the market for a $2000 rifle that only offers a few advantages with various accompanying disadvantages?
Most Americans have a pretty good understanding of the AR manual of arms. Bullpups have a certain manual of arms that most people have never been training in or have even seem demonstrated. This also frustrates bullpup sales. To get past the niche collectors market any new rifle (SCAR, Masada, Tavor, et al) must be price competitive against what is already in common use. Or, it must offer a significant improvement over existing systems.
I look forward to seeing the Tavor hit the shelves. Personally, I see this happening sometime in November. But at anything over $1200-1500 you can count on very limited sales.
For what it's worth, I wish straight 25rd AR mags were more available.
The best example of this is with a design I have already mentioned i.e. the FNH FS2000 that can & does demand a premium price & is in still in local shops, I see one or two at gun shops that have been marked down from around $2,000 but they still to this day try & get $1,600+ (just look at GunBroker) It's the same way at 2 of my local gun shops I frequent, the same few lonely overpriced bullpups that have been on the way for years.
I can see how most who are very effective & have mastered the AR manual of arms, not wanting to have to learn & master a completely new manual of arms where weapon manipulation & failure drills for a bullpup are drastically different from an AR, I wouldn't put the SCAR or ACR in this category as they were made to be very similar to the AR manual of arms.
I think if the FNH FS2000 wasn't so pricey & after FN realized they weren't selling as many rifles as they should be, the price should have come down A LOT. I too hope this is not the case with the Tavor, I believe it has the potential of turning more Americans on to the bullpup in the States. It looks amazing & if priced right it may change things for the design, I hope it could change the minds of AR elitists to be more openminded towards a bullpup (non AR) that doesn't have a match-grade 3Lb trigger pull.
I just hope the Tavor TAR-21 is priced well & has growing aftermarket support, & not just mounts, optics & lights, I think what makes the AR so successful is it's hard to get bored with, you can have the same registered serial numbered part & change it in a 1,000+ ways with triggers, barrels, stocks, quad rails, pistol grips, piston op/ DI op, caliber conversions & so much more, that is what gives the AR its longevity in the Military & civvi market.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-27-12, 05:27
I use mine box stock - I didn't even put on the issue sling as the buckle started to scratch the finish of the bipod
Mine has probably max 100 rds thru it and is in mint condition - I was able to get some mags so I have about 5-6 mags for it
Be safe
LAV
WOW! You only have around 100rds through your GIAT MAS.223? Did you purchase it back in 88' - 98' when Century imported the MAS.223 & the Steyr AUG?... I believe the MAS.223 only came with one 25rd mag, the others must have been hard to come by. Do you have the box, cleaning kit or any of the accessories that Century offered for a price?
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/GIATMAS223.jpg
The add for the GIAT MAS .223 by Century says it had some available accessories:
* Rifle Complete With Spare Parts Kit And Magazine... $899.95
* Bipiod, Sling and Spare Magazine... $99.95
* Bayonet & Scabbard... $37.95
* Special Accessary Set $99.95 When Ordering With Rifle.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d131/civiceg6/MAS223Instructions.jpg...The add also says: "And for the collector It's the "jewel in the crown"... the once-in-a-lifetime acquisition that makes the very special collection". I don't think they knew how right they would be.
...Larry, if you ever get bored with your MAS.223 i'd buy it in a heart beat :happy: but I know you'll probably keep it forever *sigh.
If you ever get a chance I'd like to see some pics of your MAS.223, sounds like it's practically new, probably looks like this unfired one in the picture.
- István
Larry Vickers
08-27-12, 08:20
No box no manual - just the gun and 1 mag in new condition- I got it a few years back for $8000
Over time I watched and scrounged up more mags and a sling - still no manual or bayonet
No my intent will be that key pieces like the FAMAS will only leave my collection when I am taking a dirt nap
Good Luck in your quest to find one
LAV
I remember shooting a FAMAS at a range decades ago when they were first imported. I don't remember seeing many rounds fired through it, but it seemed to run okay on brass cased ammo that we had available at the time.
There was something guest-written in thefirearmblog about the FAMAS, problems that they are experiencing with it due to age and wear and tear, and the general deplorable state of equipment and outdated kit in the French Mil. It was supposedly written by someone who is a French firearms enthusiast and former Mil.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/08/28/guest-post-the-french-army-and-the-search-to-replace-the-famas-rifle/
Hungarian_Legionnaire
08-31-12, 15:16
No box no manual - just the gun and 1 mag in new condition- I got it a few years back for $8000
Over time I watched and scrounged up more mags and a sling - still no manual or bayonet
No my intent will be that key pieces like the FAMAS will only leave my collection when I am taking a dirt nap
Good Lucj in your quest to find one
LAV
Larry, I finally found a Century GIAT MAS .223, Serial number:
SA 00097B (do you know anything about these numbers as to dates, was it the 97th one made for export?)
It's in 100% perfect condition, It comes with nine magazines, two cleaning kits, magazine pouch, magzine well plug, grenade sight, two folding cleaning brushes and 3 small parts kits.
That was all the good news, heres the not so good news they are asking $13,000!
http://www.prebanarmory.com/french-famas-2/
(Funny I ended up Googling "MAS .223" to post a previous pic & it turned out to be this exact MAS .223 that is for sale)
In your opinion, will this go up in value, & is it worth $13K in this economy? Of course I don't have $13K in my wallet, I would have to take out a loan or sell one of my vehicles or something to get this, of course I would haggle the price down as much as I possibly could.
Thought you would like to see this rare occurrence, (as a MAS .223 owner) 1 of the 120 MAS .223's for sale, it's like planets lining up when one of these goes up for sale :laugh:
- István
...By the way, did you get my PM, RE: Vickers Tactical Glock Parts? Would like to know what you think.
Larry Vickers
08-31-12, 20:59
That is a bit high but my advice is if you want one buy it- you could literally go years before one comes back up for sale
Larry, I finally found a Century GIAT MAS .223, Serial number:
SA 00097B (do you know anything about these numbers as to dates, was it the 97th one made for export?)
It's in 100% perfect condition, It comes with nine magazines, two cleaning kits, magazine pouch, magzine well plug, grenade sight, two folding cleaning brushes and 3 small parts kits.
That was all the good news, heres the not so good news they are asking $13,000!
http://www.prebanarmory.com/french-famas-2/
(Funny I ended up Googling "MAS .223" to post a previous pic & it turned out to be this exact MAS .223 that is for sale)
In your opinion, will this go up in value, & is it worth $13K in this economy? Of course I don't have $13K in my wallet, I would have to take out a loan or sell one of my vehicles or something to get this, of course I would haggle the price down as much as I possibly could.
Thought you would like to see this rare occurrence, (as a MAS .223 owner) 1 of the 120 MAS .223's for sale, it's like planets lining up when one of these goes up for sale :laugh:
- István
...By the way, did you get my PM, RE: Vickers Tactical Glock Parts? Would like to know what you think.
That is too much money for not being NIB.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
09-02-12, 12:49
That is too much money for not being NIB.
This is in mint condition, & if you know about the Giat MAS .223 & Steyr AUG imported by Century Arms back in 88'-89', they ONLY imported 120 MAS .223 (made in the same French Gov. factory that makes the Giat FAMAS F-1, which is it a semi-auto version of). I have wanted one of these since I was a kid, I have seen only ONE other MAS .223 for sale in my life, & the little clarion no one wanted back in the late 80's that sold for $950.95, now demands $10K - $13K. The FAMAS is my favorite firearm, after deciding to join the French Foreign Legion, then actually going to France & figuring out joining wasn't my decision at all, but I made it in & in to the REG I was hoping for (basically) to be able to shoot, clean & maintain a FAMAS you either need a LOT of money, or join the French Foreign Legion... Now that my 5 years of service to France is up & I am back in the States I'm FAMAS-depressed.
I wish a company like TWA & IWI would put forth an effort to try & get the NEXTER Group to do what IWI is doing & make FAMAS F-1's F1 LP's, G2's with French & US parts, (I know this will never happen) but one can only dream...
Failure2Stop
09-02-12, 13:01
The discussion about the FAMAS, as useful as it is to those that are into the FAMAS, would probably be more useful in a dedicated thread instead of buried here in a thread about the Tavor.
Unless someone objects, I am going to shift the Famas discussion to its own thread so this one can focus on the original topic.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
09-10-12, 05:50
The discussion about the FAMAS, as useful as it is to those that are into the FAMAS, would probably be more useful in a dedicated thread instead of buried here in a thread about the Tavor.
Unless someone objects, I am going to shift the Famas discussion to its own thread so this one can focus on the original topic.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Sorry, not trying to hijack the Tavor TAR-21 thread.
... Speaking of the Tavor, I had a very pleasant, interesting & informative phone call with Michael Kassnar, President of TWA, very nice guy, meet him @ SHOT Show 2012. I was trying to call TWA to ask about the Tavor & in some odd wrong number of fate? :confused: I called Michael Kassnar on, lets just say (a number I shouldn't have), (I felt like an ass) but he was very nice about it & I ended up having a great 30-40min conversation with Mr. Kassnar, he knew me from HERE somehow, maybe he reads my posts? He is also a Hungarian, just an awesome guy! But, I don't know exactly what I can say or what I can't, & I made a "non-disclosure agreement"/ promisse to Mr. Kassnar (that I wouldn't mention certain "specific" info on the Tavor + upcoming news that he is going to reveal) :secret:. He didn't have to say anything to me considering how I got in contact with him, so all I'm going to say is those wanting a Tavor will be VERY pleased with the future of the Tavor & whats to come from IWI.US!
Hungarian_Legionnaire
09-26-12, 22:12
I can't believe I haven't seen ANY advertisement or "hands On" reviews by any of the gun rags out there, there hasn't even been a mention of IWI.US or the Tavor TAR-21. There was suppose to be a "reveal" at the Wholesalers Trade Show/ Convention, I haven't herd anything about that, or any media outlet pictures or reviews, which is very odd... Usually when a new highly anticipated firearm is coming out all the top gun rags have their own review on it, the IWI.US Tavor TAR-21 is suppose to be released very soon & no American gun mag has had their grubby hands on it... I've been waiting for this bullpup to come to the US back when I saw it online at SHOT Show 2002, prior to joining La Légion Étrangčre's Elite 2eREP, 10 years later 2 deployments to LeStan, finish my 5 year Service Contract to France & it's still NOT in the States.
If anyone has any news please inform me:thank_you2:
I can't believe I haven't seen ANY advertisement or "hands On" reviews by any of the gun rags out there, there hasn't even been a mention of IWI.US or the Tavor TAR-21. There was suppose to be a "reveal" at the Wholesalers Trade Show/ Convention, I haven't herd anything about that, or any media outlet pictures or reviews, which is very odd... Usually when a new highly anticipated firearm is coming out all the top gun rags have their own review on it, the IWI.US Tavor TAR-21 is suppose to be released very soon & no American gun mag has had their grubby hands on it... I've been waiting for this bullpup to come to the US back when I saw it online at SHOT Show 2002, prior to joining La Légion Étrangčre's Elite 2eREP, 10 years later 2 deployments to LeStan, finish my 5 year Service Contract to France & it's still NOT in the States.
If anyone has any news please inform me:thank_you2:
Not really "news" per se, however there are promises of imminent release in late-winter/early-spring (with possible delays, who knows?) and a planned group buy mentioned here:
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=496.120
So it sounds optimistic, yet you've still got a bit of a wait presuming this all goes as planned.
-Cheers
Larry Vickers
09-26-12, 23:10
Gents I just visited One Shot Tactical in Canada ( Blue Force Gear and Daniel Defense distributor amongst other brands- if your up north definately check them out) and got some time behind a Tavor- as far as bullpups go it may very well be the best of the breed; I enjoy shooting all types of small arms, in particular assault rifles ( which is my #1 passion in firearms) and I can say if you like bullpups you will definately like the Tavor
Like others have said I don't want to steal Micheal Kassnar's thunder but big things are planned for the Tavor in the USA and it will definately be worth the wait
Cheers
LAV
Hungarian_Legionnaire
09-27-12, 04:09
... Speaking of the Tavor, I had a very pleasant, interesting & informative phone call with Michael Kassnar, President of TWA, very nice guy, meet him @ SHOT Show 2012. I was trying to call TWA to ask about the Tavor & in some odd wrong number of fate? :confused: I called Michael Kassnar on, lets just say (a number I shouldn't have), (I felt like an ass) but he was very nice about it & I ended up having a great 30-40min conversation with Mr. Kassnar, he knew me from HERE somehow, maybe he reads my posts? He is also a Hungarian, just an awesome guy! But, I don't know exactly what I can say or what I can't, & I made a "non-disclosure agreement"/ promisse to Mr. Kassnar (that I wouldn't mention certain "specific" info on the Tavor + upcoming news that he is going to reveal) :secret:. He didn't have to say anything to me considering how I got in contact with him, so all I'm going to say is those wanting a Tavor will be VERY pleased with the future of the Tavor & whats to come from IWI.US!
Not really "news" per se, however there are promises of imminent release in late-winter/early-spring (with possible delays, who knows?) and a planned group buy mentioned here:
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=496.120
So it sounds optimistic, yet you've still got a bit of a wait presuming this all goes as planned.
-Cheers
NOTE; My Last Comment: I know what is going on, but asking the upmost of obvious questions, I'm well aware of past links & group buys.
NOTE; My Last Comment: I know what is going on, but asking the upmost of obvious questions, I'm well aware of past links & group buys.
I only put the link in because there was just mention of the planned release date moving from a guesstimated October timeframe to a late-winter/early-spring timeframe in the last post of that thread. Sorry, the move back was news to me.
-Cheers
Hungarian_Legionnaire
09-27-12, 06:21
I only put the link in because there was just mention of the planned release date moving from a guesstimated October timeframe to a late-winter/early-spring timeframe in the last post of that thread. Sorry, the move back was news to me.
-Cheers
My bad, didn't mean to come off rude, I've been involved with the Tavor since SHOT Shot, & wanting it since it debut at SHOT Show 2002 (I wasn't at that one). I was just wondering since it's do out soon, why doesn't every gun rag in the country have a review out or anything even mentioning the IWI.US Tavor? Thanks for you're comment (although it wasn't news to me) I appreciate it :)
My bad, didn't mean to come off rude
No problem. I hadn't heard the shift in ETA.
I was just wondering since it's do out soon, why doesn't every gun rag in the country have a review out or anything even mentioning the IWI.US Tavor?
Beats me. Maybe from the false hopes over the past ten years? I'm still just kind of excited it should be coming out. If I'd been eagerly expecting it just around the corner for the past decade, I'd probably be a bit antsy.
-Cheers
Time for more unconfirmed Internet rumors. Anyway, for anybody NOT watching the Tavor Group Buy thread...
"We got to shoot the Tavor here at the Shoot !! Anyone that wanted to could put a mag through it... Sweet... MK says it'll be out in early spring (March?)... Sg_P will post all the news from here as he can next couple o days..."
Presumably by "MK" they mean Michael Kassnar. Anyway, hopefully we hear something a bit more conclusive in the next couple of days.
-Cheers
justin_247
09-30-12, 21:37
Military Arms Channel has their arms on a prototype.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx2yCbmgp-c&feature=g-all-u
Military Arms Channel has their arms on a prototype.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx2yCbmgp-c&feature=g-all-u
Looks amazing!
-Cheers
In case anybody did not see this:
"I talked with Mr. Kassnar about regular retail pricing and availability. He told me that the expected retail price would be $1,999 with availability in the February-March time frame."
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=1075.0
I'm keeping my fingers crossed on that.
-Cheers
No Bananas
10-02-12, 23:27
Anybody taking pre-orders yet?
Anybody taking pre-orders yet?
No. Not yet.
Doc. Holiday
10-03-12, 16:42
I think I'm going to wait and see what everyone has to say about them after their first year in production before I drop any cash.
KarbonChemist
10-04-12, 13:37
I like as well!
KarbonChemist
10-04-12, 13:37
I think I'm going to wait and see what everyone has to say about them after their first year in production before I drop any cash.
Good point.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
10-05-12, 09:07
I think I'm going to wait and see what everyone has to say about them after their first year in production before I drop any cash.
A LOT can happen in a year, (especially with the election), plus, If things go like the AUG A3 with Saber Defense or the STG-556 with M.S.A.R. You could end up spending double what MSRP is when they finally come out in a year. An extreme example is the import of the MAS .223 otherwise known as the FAMAS F-1, that Century imported in 88' for $899.95, IF you can find one now, they will run you $13,000 +... Just saying, Americans are notorious for not being accepting of the Bullpup...
Doc. Holiday
10-05-12, 12:15
A LOT can happen in a year, (especially with the election), plus, If things go like the AUG A3 with Saber Defense or the STG-556 with M.S.A.R. You could end up spending double what MSRP is when they finally come out in a year. An extreme example is the import of the MAS .223 otherwise known as the FAMAS F-1, that Century imported in 88' for $899.95, IF you can find one now, they will run you $13,000 +... Just saying, Americans are notorious for not being accepting of the Bullpup...
I understand. The Tavor was never really a "hot button" for me to begin with so if I don't end up getting one I won't be too butt hurt about it. I think the only remorse I would end up having would be not buying and then reselling it for a profit. haha
Hungarian_Legionnaire
10-06-12, 11:31
I understand. The Tavor was never really a "hot button" for me to begin with so if I don't end up getting one I won't be too butt hurt about it. I think the only remorse I would end up having would be not buying and then reselling it for a profit. haha
I plan on buying two, one for shooting & one for when they are no longer made, I like the way you think :)
Do you have a release date or order info yet? I have a serious lack of patients for things I want :( Please let us all know soon.
They just said March IIRC.
I would interpret that as "sometime next spring 2013".
Thanks... I'll just wait till then I guess.
theinvisibleheart
10-30-12, 23:09
+1
Pity production/sales release of Tavor was delayed to next year.
But I think the receptivity of US market to bullpup has increased considerably since since Famas got released by Century in 1980s.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
10-31-12, 14:25
+1
Pity production/sales release of Tavor was delayed to next year.
But I think the receptivity of US market to bullpup has increased considerably since since Famas got released by Century in 1980s.
...Look at how many bullpup designs that are standard issue combat rifles in other countries, that have either failed or have sold less than any other military-type rifle in the US, i.e. Steyr AUG, MSAR STG-556, FNH FS2000, FNH PS90, Kel Tec RFB, Kel Tec KSG ect. There is just something with the US & a lack of love for the Bullpup, it's a great design that I personally prefer over non-bullpup rifles, it could be due to my long term exposure to only using the FAMAS F-1 for 5 years but I owned bullups before I joined La Légion Etrangčre.
As for the Tavor TAR-21 being pushed back to early 2013 it's obviously for a reason, I would rather wait than have IWI.US rush to full production & then have problems/ recalls with the Tavor, but that's just my opinion.
...Look at how many bullpup designs that are standard issue combat rifles in other countries, that have either failed or have sold less than any other military-type rifle in the US, i.e. Steyr AUG, MSAR STG-556, FNH FS2000, FNH PS90, Kel Tec RFB, Kel Tec KSG ect. There is just something with the US & a lack of love for the Bullpup, it's a great design that I personally prefer over non-bullpup rifles, it could be due to my long term exposure to only using the FAMAS F-1 for 5 years but I owned bullups before I joined La Légion Etrangčre.
Without making a comment on the logic of this, I think that in general people want what the military has. If have my doubts about the US civilian market being so populated with AR pattern rifles if the military had not adopted them. So I think that's at the root of the issue.
The other thing is that in terms of a critical mass of gun owners and shooters, we outnumber any other country. So any changes and new adaptations sweep through much slower. There are literally millions of gun owners in this country who have learned and shot nothing but standard layout rifles all of their lives. It is an institutional inertia of sorts in the US shooting community. Plus, until the last ten years bullpups were not very widely available. Be patient.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-01-12, 03:30
Without making a comment on the logic of this, I think that in general people want what the military has. If have my doubts about the US civilian market being so populated with AR pattern rifles if the military had not adopted them. So I think that's at the root of the issue.
The other thing is that in terms of a critical mass of gun owners and shooters, we outnumber any other country. So any changes and new adaptations sweep through much slower. There are literally millions of gun owners in this country who have learned and shot nothing but standard layout rifles all of their lives. It is an institutional inertia of sorts in the US shooting community. Plus, until the last ten years bullpups were not very widely available. Be patient.
I have no rush or care to make Americans more appreciative of the bullpup design, or make them like it any more or less, although with more Americans wanting more bullpups, then FFL's & distributors will have more of an incentive to produce/ import more bullpups in to the US, & I believe that the Tavor will be "that" Bullpup that does it. I'm well aware that Americans are overdoing the whole M4/AR series of rifles; (Look at how long it took for the AK to become "big" with Americans), within the last 10 years there has been a HUGE increase in the AK47/74 variant market selling AK anything & everything, with many high-end AK manufactures i.e. ARSENAL, Mark Krebs ect.
I've lived here since I was 12 years old, joining La Légion Etrangčre when I was 19, did my 5 years & decided to come back to the states for my family, & ever since I could own a rifle I've had only bullpups ,AKM's & AK74's, I didn't own an AR until last year when I got an LWRCi M6A2 (which I love) but not as much as I would love to own the Tavor or a FAMAS F-1. Maybe it's because I'm not an American or all the time I have spent using a bullpup (like you said it's "It is an institutional inertia of sorts") with the M16/AR-15 with Americans, but thats just my opinion, but I am very happy to see how much support from Americans the Tavor TAR-21 has, I hope this bullpup changes things with the "AR traditionalist", being more open to the bullpup design... Which I think a LOT more people would like if someone figured out a better method than the "trigger bar" for a better trigger pull, I've been thinking of a design for years to make it better & it seams there is really no way around it, but I know some day it will be redesigned, but I'm an ex Legionnaire, not a Firearms Engineer.
- István
Not being a firearms engineer/designer either, it seems though that the primary complaint most have with the bullpup is the trigger pull. It seems that being the issue, the solution might be a electronic trigger of some sort versus a mechanical linkage. Know that there might be a lot more to it than I have the knowledge of but it seems with the electronics minitarization that you could use a "fly by wire" trigger to a solenoid that you would be able to eliminate the trigger problem. Hopefully I won't get flamed but would appreciate any input on if feasible or doable/problems. Think I will also post the question on the BullPup Formum also.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-01-12, 11:08
Not being a firearms engineer/designer either, it seems though that the primary complaint most have with the bullpup is the trigger pull. It seems that being the issue, the solution might be a electronic trigger of some sort versus a mechanical linkage. Know that there might be a lot more to it than I have the knowledge of but it seems with the electronics minitarization that you could use a "fly by wire" trigger to a solenoid that you would be able to eliminate the trigger problem. Hopefully I won't get flamed but would appreciate any input on if feasible or doable/problems. Think I will also post the question on the BullPup Formum also.
I believe it's not just the trigger, but the ergos as well, it's years of muscle memory that has to be re learned & who would want to do that if they aren't in to the bullpup in the first place? No offense but a fly by wire trigger system is a bad idea, I would NEVER want my trigger hooked up to electronics, that could get signal-interference have an accidental discharge or many then someone is dead & a mass lawsuit is on the designer, I believe there IS a way to make the bullpups trigger better form a firearms engineer standpoint, IT can be done people have always just wanted to design the next great looking bullpup made many other changes like forward ejection but have always left the 1960's trigger bar in place without thinking "how can we get a better trigger pull by doing..." I have a few bullpups, I can break down & see what I can come up with, who knows...
I believe it's not just the trigger, but the ergos as well, it's years of muscle memory that has to be re learned & who would want to do that if they aren't in to the bullpup in the first place? No offense but a fly by wire trigger system is a bad idea, I would NEVER want my trigger hooked up to electronics, that could get signal-interference have an accidental discharge or many then someone is dead & a mass lawsuit is on the designer, I believe there IS a way to make the bullpups trigger better form a firearms engineer standpoint, IT can be done people have always just wanted to design the next great looking bullpup made many other changes like forward ejection but have always left the 1960's trigger bar in place without thinking "how can we get a better trigger pull by doing..." I have a few bullpups, I can break down & see what I can come up with, who knows...
Legionnaire,
Understand that one of the big issues of this idea would be tackling the legal issues and also the objection of any new technology. As far as the legal/liability issues, I believe a proper design will deal with that and I believe it shouldn't be an issue. We travel every day and place our lives in the hands of electronic technology that control our cars, planes, trains, etc. Yes sometimes the electronic gremlins do bite back as in the case of the Air France flight a couple of years ago but you don't see other industries/military doing away with the electronics. We couldn't not do what we do as a modern military without relying on electronics. Also as far as the issue of not wanting a trigger hooked up to electronics, this mentality is the same as the American Army not wanting to issue repeating rifles in the late 1800's or putting bolt lockouts on the 1903 Springfield because if we issue repeaters, then the troops will use more ammunition/waste it then we will have to figure out how to bring more ammunition to them. Also why issue repeaters, my musket was good enough for me. Or even the mentality that why issue new fangled smokeless powder since it costs more, etc, etc. I could go on and on about the reluctance to adopt new technologies, however think those are the least reason to consider electronic triggers. Now if it really isn't correcting a problem or can be done a easier way, then that would be more the issue in my opinion. That being said I do appreciate the feedback, especially since I asked for it.:smile:
Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-01-12, 15:39
Legionnaire,
Understand that one of the big issues of this idea would be tackling the legal issues and also the objection of any new technology. As far as the legal/liability issues, I believe a proper design will deal with that and I believe it shouldn't be an issue. We travel every day and place our lives in the hands of electronic technology that control our cars, planes, trains, etc. Yes sometimes the electronic gremlins do bite back as in the case of the Air France flight a couple of years ago but you don't see other industries/military doing away with the electronics. We couldn't not do what we do as a modern military without relying on electronics. Also as far as the issue of not wanting a trigger hooked up to electronics, this mentality is the same as the American Army not wanting to issue repeating rifles in the late 1800's or putting bolt lockouts on the 1903 Springfield because if we issue repeaters, then the troops will use more ammunition/waste it then we will have to figure out how to bring more ammunition to them. Also why issue repeaters, my musket was good enough for me. Or even the mentality that why issue new fangled smokeless powder since it costs more, etc, etc. I could go on and on about the reluctance to adopt new technologies, however think those are the least reason to consider electronic triggers. Now if it really isn't correcting a problem or can be done a easier way, then that would be more the issue in my opinion. That being said I do appreciate the feedback, especially since I asked for it.:smile:
I don't disagree with you on the mass-advancement of technology especially since I my self am still pretty green (I've only been out of the Military 3 years) & I'm 110% with having NATO be the most technicality advanced Intergovernmental Military Alliance of Countries & Militaries on the planet, I was simply talking in a very, very minute piece of technology i.e. the trigger system, I am 85% sure some day soon there will be ID Tagged weapons for ID Tagged Soldiers like a small implant in the hand or wrist that corresponds with the in the frame of a pistol or pistol grip or a rifle, I believe it will start off only in the Military & then for civvies to own firearms, they will have to have the same implant, that will do things like say you pick up another soldiers rifle & try to shoot it, it may not work for you, but then again maybe in the Military the programming will allow any US soldier to use any US/ foreign weapon on the battlefield, but change it when they come back state side. I think a lot of new good & not so good tech is coming, but I think there has never been a "Fly by wire" trigger system in a bullpup for a reason, I honestly think it's too dangerous, for every measure there is a counter measure, if in the feature when we have WWIII terrorist will know the advancement of the technology for our trigger systems, it the entire military went to a system to that it would require a power source, making the bullpup heavier & it could possibly get hacked, it's not like the US Gov. hasn't been hacked before... I'm not a crazy or predict dooms day but I know when things aren't going good in the world & an electronic trigger could be shut off rendering the weapon useless, I would rather keep the electronics building better firearms NOT in them.
I know that there MUST be a way to fix the whole Bullupup design trigger bar that doesn't involve electronics in the actual firing mechanism, & trigger group, I don't know if I'm the only one but that does not sit well with me.
- István
Quick check on the possible price of these bad boys?
Hungarian_Legionnaire
11-26-12, 22:05
Quick check on the possible price of these bad boys?
TWA President Michael Kassnar has said that the Tavor TAR-21 would be priced at or around $2K.
ApexAchilles
12-05-12, 17:23
Do want.
Doc. Holiday
12-06-12, 09:01
TWA President Michael Kassnar has said that the Tavor TAR-21 would be priced at or around $2K.
Not surprised at all. It seems like any bullpup is going to be near that range.
Hungarian_Legionnaire
12-06-12, 18:53
Not surprised at all. It seems like any bullpup is going to be near that range.
Yeah, wish they we're in the $18,00 range but it's new, + "supply & demand". I think out of the 4 different models IWI US are making of the Tavor SAR, the mose expensive modle is going to be the "IDF" model with the Mepro-21 Reflex Sight & 16.5" barrel (which should be an 18.1" barrel since the actual IDF Tavor TAR-21 uses uses an 18.1" barrel) not a 16.5", I hope they offer the "IDF" Tavor SAR is available with an 18" barrel, since they are offering a 18" barrel in the railed version. + It sucks that the states have to change the name, Canada got the Tavor TAR-21, we get the name changed to the Tavor SAR... not even "SAR-21", just (SAR) (Semi-Auto Rifle)?
Here is the forum/ pics of all 4 models that are going to be available from IWI US:
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=1350.0
Doc. Holiday
12-07-12, 09:01
Cool! Thanks for the link!
Yeah, wish they we're in the $18,00 range but it's new, + "supply & demand".
Isn't it less than that? MSRP is ~$1,900 however generally things end up below retail.
Cope's Distributing has them for ~$1,909.99 on pre-order.
http://www.copesdistributing.net/index.php
However...
Livengood Outdoors (which I have admittedly never heard of) is listing them for $1,700, no pre-orders though. $200 less than Copes.
http://www.livengoodoutdoors.com/rifles-shotguns/18867-iwi-tavor-sar-556nato-165-30rd-blk.html
Grabagun.com has them listed for $1678.96, no pre-orders here either, but you save ~$20 over the above.
http://grabagun.com/iwi-us-inc-tavor-sar-556nato-16-5-30rd-blk.html
In addition to that, the Group Buy which ends Sunday at Midnight is promising a significantly-lower-than-MSRP price as well bragging rights for being the first person at your range to have one.
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=496.0
That and, well, it's brand new (not even released yet), has a ten year service history, and people have been chomping at the bit for this one a full decade. Real world prices might be more reasonable, especially once the initial rush is over. Considering that, with it being listed at $1678.98 and the possibility of it being less than that if you either A) sign up for the group buy or B) some place lists it for less, that does not seem too bad since it's more than $1,000 cheaper than what you were hoping for.
I think out of the 4 different models IWI US are making of the Tavor SAR, the mose expensive modle is going to be the "IDF" model with the Mepro-21 Reflex Sight & 16.5" barrel (which should be an 18.1" barrel since the actual IDF Tavor TAR-21 uses uses an 18.1" barrel) not a 16.5"
I doubt most in the U.S. know that, much less care. Plus, as noted in the thread about those four models, the IDF never standardized on the full length rifle barrel. I suspect it was a marketing decision, and probably a smart one at that. Most in the U.S. are going to want a 16.5" barrel. It would make sense to offer the IDF version in an 18" barrel for the IDF-aphiles.
+ It sucks that the states have to change the name, Canada got the Tavor TAR-21, we get the name changed to the Tavor SAR... not even "SAR-21", just (SAR) (Semi-Auto Rifle)?
I guess I do not really see what difference it makes, at least not to me. As Michael Kessnar noted:
IWI US had to come up with a new model designation for this gun to distinguish it from the TAR 21, whether it was a full auto TAR 21 or the Canadian semi-auto TAR 21. This semi-auto (SAR) is quite different from what was sold in Canada. The Canadian version could not be sold in the US because it is extremely easy to convert to full auto. ATF would not approve it. However, the SAR is extremely difficult to ever convert to full auto and has been approved by ATF. Hence, the new designation, SAR (Semi-Auto Rifle).
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=1350.30
I will just be happy to get one. Hopefully for a pretty nice deal w/ the group buy.
-Cheers
See www.iwi.us for the new IWI US "mini" website, A full featured e-commerce site will be ready by end January.
Please also visit www.facebook.com/IWIUS and LIKE our page.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY hoping this sneaks in under the wire before any AWB-type legislation is passed. Or that it is overlooked by any new laws. Or that there IS no AWB-type legislation. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I am getting pretty excited for it.
-Cheers
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY hoping this sneaks in under the wire before any AWB-type legislation is passed.
From your lips to G-d's ears...
TurretGunner
12-19-12, 20:09
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY hoping this sneaks in under the wire before any AWB-type legislation is passed. Or that it is overlooked by any new laws. Or that there IS no AWB-type legislation. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I am getting pretty excited for it.
-Cheers
I wouldnt worry about it. In the Rare case it somehow gets pushed through, there will be immediate injunctions filed that should take years to sort out.
If the dems want to lose congress again, the best thing they can do is try to push another gun ban through.
From your lips to G-d's ears...
Is the US Tavor still going ahead or are things temporarily on hold? Also, a lot of folks up here in Canada are under the impression these will be eligible for export. Just curious...
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