View Full Version : BCM Middy - Couple Q's
Hey guys,
I just sold my SP6920 upper and looking to buy a middy based on all of the great reviews I've heard. This will be my one, all purpose AR. My buddy is also interested as he wants the same but will be using it as a patrol rifle on duty. Mine will be going on a Sendra pre-ban lower, his a M&P lower. I'm looking at a BCM Recce 16 with a DD Lite 12" rail. Do you guys recommend this? I have a few q's about it...
1) Should I go 16" or 14.5 with pinned muzzle device? Is the pinned way "undoable"?
2) Other than the upper receiver group, I need a BCG and charging handle correct?
3) Is this a good choice for a patrol rifle on duty?
4) Any other things I should know... will be my first middy.
Thanks in advance!
I'd go 16 inch. It's more forgiving with various ammo.
I've shot them both, and the 16 is more forgiving. The 14.5 will shoot smoother, but when it comes to patrol reliability, I'd run the 16.
Actually... I'd have kept the 6920 upper if I couldn't use an SBR.
lethal dose
01-18-12, 07:54
personally, i would never buy a 14.5 with perm fh. too much headache for little savings in length.
Dionysusigma
01-18-12, 08:00
1) Should I go 16" or 14.5 with pinned muzzle device? Is the pinned way "undoable"?
16" for the reasons markm posted.
2) Other than the upper receiver group, I need a BCG and charging handle correct?
Yep. A standard BCM BCG and Gunfighter CH (in whatever size you prefer) are what I recommend.
3) Is this a good choice for a patrol rifle on duty?
Sounds good to me. Great accuracy, light rail, although I'm not sure how the heavier "intent" of the Recce mindset in barrel choice would come into play if carried for extended time periods, like patrol rifles generally are.
4) Any other things I should know... will be my first middy.
I like them (I'm on my fourth) and find them to have the shootability of a 20" without the awkwardness.
Agree with all of the above. The 14.5" with pinned device is a great niche gun, but not a good choice for a first/only gun IMO.
I have, and have had, both and the 16" mid is, as markm says, more forgiving of shit ammo, dirt, lube schedules, etc. than the 14.5" mid.
Thanks for the replies guys. I'll go with a 16". I wanted to try the middy thing and its something to feed my hobby as well lol. Though its not a Colt, isn't BCM pretty damn close? Its got all of the items on "the chart" so I'm curious as to why "kept the colt" comment. Are BCMs used in the military at all, besides being used in LEO? I thought doing some searching that these BCMs are pretty highly regarded... I'm still open for suggestions so I'm not sworn on the BCM yet.
Sounds good to me. Great accuracy, light rail, although I'm not sure how the heavier "intent" of the Recce mindset in barrel choice would come into play if carried for extended time periods, like patrol rifles generally are.
I believe the 16" Recce and middy from the BCM line up are the same. I'm going to prob get the BFH (or cold forged barrel option) or the standard barrel, so I believe they are the same weight wise. You can find the same upper if you search under "recce" or "mid length" builds.
Thanks for the replies guys. I'll go with a 16". I wanted to try the middy thing and its something to feed my hobby as well lol. Though its not a Colt, isn't BCM pretty damn close? Its got all of the items on "the chart" so I'm curious as to why "kept the colt" comment. Are BCMs used in the military at all, besides being used in LEO? I thought doing some searching that these BCMs are pretty highly regarded... I'm still open for suggestions so I'm not sworn on the BCM yet.
bumpity
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 12:19
Yes, BCM is highly regarded...
However, in your position, since you can't have an SBR, I'm not sure that you gained anything by selling your Colt upper.
Now that your upper is gone, you may as well buy whatever Bravo Company upper suits your fancy. Personally, I am partial the the BFH 16 inch, lightweight mid-length uppers...
Thanks. Ya, I realize a Colt is a Colt... but I wanted to get into a middy with a full rail. No logical reason other than I want to feed the addiciton ;)
I have the same 16" upper you're considering and the comments above are spot on. Add BCM BCG and Gunfighter CH and you're GTG. If you want a rail, the DD Lite is a solid choice. The only downside is the lack of integrated QD sockets, if desired. You could save some coin with something like a MOE handguard, but that's your call.
I sold my RRA ET AR upper and used the cash to get a BCM BFH LW 16 midlength and honestly I couldn't be happier. Great products as usual from BCM. Selling the Colt upper is something I would not have done, but its a matter of personal taste I suppose. Have fun and good luck with your purchase.
Ya, if Colt made a middy, I might consider that... but last I checked they don't. So looks like BCM is way to go.
St.Michael
01-18-12, 13:39
wow it seems like you guys kinda shit on 14.5. I didn't realize they had such a bad wrap? Is there a reason other then it's not forgiving with crap ammo? lethal I was wondering what would be the problem with a perm flash hider? If you get a good one other then not being able to remove it or change it why is it so bad? Don't mean to hijack just trying to get more input out of the answers posted.
Jay Cunningham
01-18-12, 13:42
St.Michael, you're worrying about something that doesn't matter.
Sounds like you have an awesome upper in your future.
1) Should I go 16" or 14.5 with pinned muzzle device? Is the pinned way "undoable"?
Just do 16, it may not look as "tacticool" but it's more tactical to be able to do what you want with your muzzle device. It is notable that 14.5 is a bit smoother, though. I actually would want to do a 14.5 myself but I'd feel at a loss with a pinned ordeal.
2) Other than the upper receiver group, I need a BCG and charging handle correct?
On a BCM, yes. Look into the BCM gunfighter, it actually is really nice.
3) Is this a good choice for a patrol rifle on duty?
Yes, both a 14.5 and 16 will suffice and preform very well, especially a BCM.
4) Any other things I should know... will be my first middy.
Slings often go un-thought of. It's a great idea to meditate your options there.
I run a single point ASAP, when and if I ever need a sling anyways... Thanks for the responses.
As a general question, have any of these mid lengths gone on full auto or select fire set ups for SWAT or military units? If so, how do they handle? I know the Colt 6920 Gov't profile barrels are the same as the M4s they make. Just curious...
GeorgiaBoy
01-18-12, 14:22
wow it seems like you guys kinda shit on 14.5. I didn't realize they had such a bad wrap? Is there a reason other then it's not forgiving with crap ammo? lethal I was wondering what would be the problem with a perm flash hider? If you get a good one other then not being able to remove it or change it why is it so bad? Don't mean to hijack just trying to get more input out of the answers posted.
The 14.5 is not as unreliable as some make it out to be. It all depends in the gun. I've shot over 500 rounds of Wolf without a hitch in my 14.5, and I'm using an H buffer. A H2 or 3 may have short stroke problems.
Many people worry that they may want to change out muzzle devices, and opt not to perm for this reason. I ONLY use A2's, and have no desire for a comp or other muzzle device, so mine is permed.
SpookyPistolero
01-18-12, 15:04
What was the problem with the 6920?
shaneinhisroom
01-18-12, 15:05
BCM is top tier quality.
DeltaSierra
01-18-12, 15:17
BCM is top tier quality.
As Grant has stated before, only two companies have an official version of the TDP.
BCM is very high quality, but they are not quite on the same level as Colt or FN since they do not have an official version of the TDP. Since FN cannot sell M-16/M-4 style weapons on the US civilian market, that means that the only true top tier weapon on the US market is Colt.
Now, this is not to say that BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske isn't a high quality weapon that is suitable for hard use, but, in all fairness they are not first tier as they don't have an official copy of the technical data package.
shaneinhisroom
01-18-12, 15:21
Fair enough. I used top tier as subjective, but I see what you mean. Thanks.
well then the question is that if those companies did do testing, how would they fare? I'm pretty sure they would get the same numbers as Colt.
The 14.5 is not as unreliable as some make it out to be. It all depends in the gun. I've shot over 500 rounds of Wolf without a hitch in my 14.5, and I'm using an H buffer. A H2 or 3 may have short stroke problems.
Many people worry that they may want to change out muzzle devices, and opt not to perm for this reason. I ONLY use A2's, and have no desire for a comp or other muzzle device, so mine is permed.
You're not just limited to muzzle devices, but also to handguards in many cases.
In either case, nothing is irreversible, it's just a matter of degrees of difficulty. For most that thought/think through the process beforehand the aggravation of the higher degree of difficulty of making changes is not worth the 1" of savings at the end of the barrel.
I'm curious how you use A2s and get a 14.5" to 16" though.
Yeah, the standard A2 adds 1.2" when you factor in threading.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
01-18-12, 16:03
wow it seems like you guys kinda shit on 14.5. I didn't realize they had such a bad wrap? Is there a reason other then it's not forgiving with crap ammo? lethal I was wondering what would be the problem with a perm flash hider? If you get a good one other then not being able to remove it or change it why is it so bad? Don't mean to hijack just trying to get more input out of the answers posted.
Hmmm...interesting. Didn't realize 14.5" middies had a "bad rap" either. FWIW, my Centurion Arms 14.5" middy ran like champ at a 2 day carbine course-- put more than 1K rounds through her-- Federal M855/M193 and PMC X-TAC XP193. No, I don't use crap ammo (in any of my guns) and don't think that should be a barometer for anything since I don't plan/anticipate on being in a situation where I won't have access to decent ammo. I run an H2 buffer with a Sprinco blue spring and a BCM bolt group. Monty built it with one of his lightweight CHF barrels and permed a Battlecomp 1.5. Perming a device isn't a problem IMO if you know what muzzle device you want (personally, I've never felt the need to change the muzzle device or handguard on any of my guns). I know it's only 1-1.5" shorter but the 14.5" seems to handle better than my 16" gun-- especially with the lightweight barrel, I could really get the gun up on target and drive the gun quickly. YMMV. I would have no probs making this my "go to" gun.
As Grant has stated before, only two companies have an official version of the TDP.
BCM is very high quality, but they are not quite on the same level as Colt or FN since they do not have an official version of the TDP. Since FN cannot sell M-16/M-4 style weapons on the US civilian market, that means that the only true top tier weapon on the US market is Colt.
Now, this is not to say that BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske isn't a high quality weapon that is suitable for hard use, but, in all fairness they are not first tier as they don't have an official copy of the technical data package.
Not to be silly, but seeing as those manufacturer's don't have the TDP isn't it potentially possible that their spec could exceed it in quality?
If anything, I would assume that the TDP spec could be subject to considerations (like budget) which manufacturers like BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske are not limited by.
We know it's possible that a manufacturer could make a better barrel than Colt. I would assume this could be true across an entire build (receiver, LPK, stock, etc.).
Therefore it's not whether or not BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske can meet the TDP spec (which is impossible to gauge without the TDP) but whether they can incidentally build to a higher spec than the TDP.
Sorry for the hairsplitting, just weighing my Colt v "the others" options now myself...
I was actually looking at a BCM 16" Middy "Recce" as well with the same DD Lite Rail.
Why does BCM though lump in a dozen or so other non 410 stainless steel barrels (like their BHF barrels) under the "recce" subsection though on their site?
A lot of them are just repeats from their standard 16" middy section.
Or is BCM just catering to the masses and has the Recce rifle gone the same way as the "SPR" when people will toss and optic or a bipod on any 18"-20" barreled rifle and call it an "SPR"?
Not to be silly, but seeing as those manufacturer's don't have the TDP isn't it potentially possible that their spec could exceed it in quality?
.
My answer? YES. In fact, I think BCM and DD actually DO make a better weapon than Colt. Sorry to all the Colt fanboys out there. It's only my opinion having used all three. Never used an LMT, so no comment there.
As for 14.5 vs 16. I like the A2X from BCM. It's just there slightly larger version of the A2. So I pinned mine. I really could care less about being able to change it easily. Handguards are not that hard to find. And I think it handles and shoots better than the 16. Again, my opinion.
I run a single point ASAP, when and if I ever need a sling anyways... Thanks for the responses.
As a general question, have any of these mid lengths gone on full auto or select fire set ups for SWAT or military units? If so, how do they handle? I know the Colt 6920 Gov't profile barrels are the same as the M4s they make. Just curious...
I have a 16" complete BCM upper that runs perfect in full auto, using carbine, H, or H2 buffers, all work perfectly. No problems or worries there.
Wow sampete, full auto huh? Jealous with the fun that must bring. Unfortunately I won't (and prob never will) be able to afford a FA firearm.
You will need a rear sight.
Ejewels,
As someone who currently owns a BCM 16" middy upper with a 12" DD lite rail allow me to give you my input. I have this upper on my rifle for the same reasons you do (an all purpose rifle). The 16" middy barrel from BCM is an excellent choice and has served me well over the short year that I've owned it and I would not recommend a 14.5" barrel as opposed to a 16" barrel for your purposes. I say this because as mentioned by others, the 14.5" option will not allow you to change your muzzle device and/or configuration of your upper depending on the situation. You may not want to change anything on the upper immediately but I know when I started getting into the longer range aspect of AR's I considered changing out my 12" lite rail for a 9" rail with an FSP while throwing the 12" on my SPR build and it's certainly nice to have the ability to do so if you please.
Concerning your rail choice the 12" lite rail is a great system from my experience with it. The rail is well as the name states, light and has held up extraordinarily well. The DD bolt up barrel nut installs easily and the rail is held in place by 6 small screws running parallel with the receiver which gives you a rock solid grip on the upper and a continuos upper receiver. I like this as it gives me the option for mounting larger optics if I ever decide to do so. The DD rail also comes with 3 black magpul ladder rail covers if those are your thing.
As far as use at the range goes the 16" barrel still gives me the feel of a carbine while giving me the peace of mind that I can reach out a little bit further if I need to with the 12" rail given I have the ability to put a bipod and larger optics on the rifle effectively.
Conclusion, for an all purpose rifle it is my honest opinion you are making the right choice as far as upper receivers are concerned. The light weight of the DD rail combined with it's great durability and track record as well as using a 16" barrel will give you the most options for an all purpose rifles and will still give you the feel of a carbine. By not using a 14.5" W/ perm FH you are further opening up your options to add or remove things from the rifle which is something I'd imagine to be important to you if it is something being used for multiple purposes.
For your reference:
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh160/firefox249/IMG_0704.jpg
Best of luck with your rifle,
Jack
Wow sampete, full auto huh? Jealous with the fun that must bring. Unfortunately I won't (and prob never will) be able to afford a FA firearm.
I can't afford one either, the lowers aren't owned by me. BCM stuff runs great in full auto though, no complaints.
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 08:31
My main rifle is BCM 14.5" mid length. It has an A2x though it's not permanently attached yet and on an SBR'd lower since it's getting a Surefire 212 flash hider soon. I wouldn't have an issue with it being permanently attached though since I, confident I'll be rebarrelling the rifle before replacing the hand guard. I can still remove the hand guard, just not the barrel nut, so if I need a replacement, it's not a big deal. The hand guard is a RIS II.
There's no real reason I went 14.5" on this one over 16", but I already had two SR15's and a couple SBR's, so I wanted something in between. I've owned a 14.5" carbine before and I don't know if it's a mental thing or I actually do notice it, but the 1.3" seems to make a difference for what I do with it, albeit a small difference.
If someone is new to AR's, I wouldn't recommend a pinned 14.5" nor would I recommend a 14.5" mid length just in case there are issues with their ammo choice and they're not ready to determine what is needed to fix any issues.
I'm ordering a Colt 6920 in the next week or two and I'm also debating what to do with the barrel as I'd prefer a 14.5" since it has a carbine gas system. I really just wanted the lower but found it a better deal to buy the complete rifle.
So far, my 14.5" mid length has been very reliable without a single failure of any kind using PMAGs and Okay aluminum mags. I have roughly 2,000 rounds through it, give or take a few hundred as I don't keep track. Most has been xm193 with a few hundred of Monarch steel and brass case, some Finnochi loaded with VMAX (if I remember correctly - 50 round green box), about 120 rounds of 75gr TAP in 223 and 40 rounds of 75gr 5.56 TAP.
I'm using a Vltor A5 receiver extension. Recently I replaced a tungsten weight with a stainless weight per Vltor's instructions. The only reason I did that was the 223 TAP and a few other assorted 223 rounds were sluggish while 5.56 was strong. It helped and all is well, but I have this overwhelming urge to just pop a carbine RE on there with an H buffer and be done with it, still likely to do that within a few weeks.
My cleaning and lube schedule is non specific, it's been cleaned once and I usually put some Slip EWL on it before I start shooting for the day and do not reapply until next time, usually firing a couple hundred rounds per trip out. I don't take the rifle every time, but it's quickly becoming my first choice.
I don't think that the 14.5" mid length is unreliable, regardless of the shooting conditions... I think a majority of the issues we hear about are when people try a buffer that's too heavy, weaker ammo or a combination of both. Even then, I don't think the majority of those issues are just ammo related. When we do hear about failures, the majority seem to be a bolt not locking back occasionally or some weak ammo short stroking once in a while. It's not often that we hear of one that is a complete dud, though I'm sure there's some threads out there.
Anyway, this is just my personal experience. I know what works for me. I know what ammo I prefer and what hand guards work for me and which don't. So, I'd have no problem with a permanently attached flash hider and I may still go that route, just not sure yet.
Thanks for the input, guys. Couple more questions:
1) This might be dumb, but is there any difference with rapid fire, speed of fire with a middy vs carbine? Can you shoot faster on one vs the other?
2) I might want to save a little cash upfront, which would mean buying the rifle sans handguards. Can an MOE middy guard be installed easily by me (non- smith, average shooter)? This would be on the FSB option middy. -OR- can BCM install the MOE for me when I order it? I don't see it as an option.
Thanks again
GeorgiaBoy
01-19-12, 08:55
Thanks for the input, guys. Couple more questions:
1) This might be dumb, but is there any difference with rapid fire, speed of fire with a middy vs carbine? Can you shoot faster on one vs the other?
2) I might want to save a little cash upfront, which would mean buying the rifle sans handguards. Can an MOE middy guard be installed easily by me (non- smith, average shooter)? This would be on the FSB option middy.
Thanks again
1. I'm not sure, but I believe the cyclic rate of the carbine is faster than the midlength. However, in semi auto fire, it's nearly impossible to reach full auto speeds with just your finger. Your not going to notice a difference.
2. Putting on a MOE handguard take 60 seconds. Same as regular handguards.
Interesting, cuz don't some people use the mid lengths as well as rifle length (M16) with full auto fire?
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 09:39
There will be no difference in how fast you can pull the trigger as it's extremely doubtful you'll be able to outrun the cyclic rate. It will depend on you as a shooter in how fast you can get rounds on target with each rifle though. With the way I shoot, I've found that unless I was competing, the difference is minimal and I can perform pretty much the same with either mid length or carbine gas system.
This is assuming both rifles are the same in every other way except gas system and the proper buffer and gas port is used for both. The difference will be seen more in full auto bursts than it will in semi auto shooting. Some feel there is an advantage though, while others don't think it's that much. Those that don't think it's that much are likely the ones using proper technique and most likely not serious competitors who will use low mass BCG's and tune their rifles.
The most important thing to me is reliability. Like I said, so far mine has been great. I'd be just as happy with a carbine gas 14.5" though.
Regardless of what I prefer, if you still had the 6920 upper my advice would be to just keep that. Since you don't, I'd recommend a BCM 16" mid length with an A2 flash hider and standard trigger. Work that rifle and see if you're happy where it is or you'd prefer some changes, then make the changes only if it will give you some sort of advantage.
good luck.
Interesting, cuz don't some people use the mid lengths as well as rifle length (M16) with full auto fire?
Yes. That 14.5 middy makes an auto slow down like a M2 fitty cal.
Put the silencer on it, and it's back cycling like an A2 rifle. I could PM you a video link where I dump 10 and 10 rounds with and without the silencer.
I went 14.5" pinned. I don't want the mount backing off and causing a baffle-strike. I have read of this happening to people even when Rockset is used. Ejection is plenty brisk and to the 1 o-clock position with 5.56. I have not tried Wolf or any other "junk" ammo through my Noveske, although I will probably just to see how it does.
Most of my shooting will be suppressed, so I don't think there will be any shortage of gas to cycle the weapon. YMMV obviously.
Rob_S and MarkM:
I do not doubt your experience in the least, but can you tell me what went wrong when you had your malfunctions? My carbine will eject casings even in the "Suppressed" setting. It just won't pick up the next round. Still, I have effectively cut the gas-port in half nearly and it's kicking out the 5.56 brass onto the ground. I can't imaging even Wolf in a dirty gun malfunctioning on the normal setting. Were there extenuating circumstances involved in your experiences?
My answer? YES. In fact, I think BCM and DD actually DO make a better weapon than Colt. Sorry to all the Colt fanboys out there. It's only my opinion having used all three. Never used an LMT, so no comment there.
As for 14.5 vs 16. I like the A2X from BCM. It's just there slightly larger version of the A2. So I pinned mine. I really could care less about being able to change it easily. Handguards are not that hard to find. And I think it handles and shoots better than the 16. Again, my opinion.
My Dad has, over the course of my late teenage years and early 20's, collected in the safe Colt, Armalite, DPMS, Bushmaster, and Olympic arms.
The DPMS and Oly and Bushmaster were all "steals". Basically, if it went "bang" as a straight-pull rifle, it was worth what he paid. Usually he would do a job for someone and they would pay him for $2-300 work with the rifle.
He is the one who got me started on the AR platform that led to me buying my Noveske.
What I observed was that only the Colts he own show proper staking. None of the rifles have had a problem except the Bushmaster where someone (Not BM) didn't tighten the castle-nut and stake the end-plate and the detent locked up the trigger.
The Colts all have worse triggers than 2 Sabres, did not fit as well, and are from the years when Colt used bastardized pin and carrier specs.
Of the rifles owned, I would rank them based on quality and attention to detail:
Noveske
Sabre
Colt
Armalite
Bushmaster
DPMS
Olympic Arms
Colt is definitely not the top of that heap. However, they do usually "get it right". It's just not as pretty or as nice as the "designer" AR's. Colts are functional. Noveske etc. are functional AND nice. DPMS, etc. are functional most of the time.
There will be no difference in how fast you can pull the trigger as it's extremely doubtful you'll be able to outrun the cyclic rate. It will depend on you as a shooter in how fast you can get rounds on target with each rifle though. With the way I shoot, I've found that unless I was competing, the difference is minimal and I can perform pretty much the same with either mid length or carbine gas system.
This is assuming both rifles are the same in every other way except gas system and the proper buffer and gas port is used for both. The difference will be seen more in full auto bursts than it will in semi auto shooting. Some feel there is an advantage though, while others don't think it's that much. Those that don't think it's that much are likely the ones using proper technique and most likely not serious competitors who will use low mass BCG's and tune their rifles.
The most important thing to me is reliability. Like I said, so far mine has been great. I'd be just as happy with a carbine gas 14.5" though.
Regardless of what I prefer, if you still had the 6920 upper my advice would be to just keep that. Since you don't, I'd recommend a BCM 16" mid length with an A2 flash hider and standard trigger. Work that rifle and see if you're happy where it is or you'd prefer some changes, then make the changes only if it will give you some sort of advantage.
good luck.
I guess thats the question then. How fast one can pull the trigger. Watching youtube and those magpul videos... some people can shoot that thing really fast.
Usually he would do a job for someone and they would pay him for $2-300 work with the rifle.
I wish I could get paid in guns.
then make the changes only if it will give you some sort of advantage.
This cannot be stressed enough. Alot of people just spend money to spend money, and in the past I have done the same. Now when looking at every new piece of equipment, I ask how it is going to make me a better shooter or can I get by with what I have. If I can't justify an answer, I can't justify buying it. I think most people are just buying shit to buy shit and that's fine unless they're expecting every little trinket to make them a better shooter.
GeorgiaBoy
01-19-12, 11:40
I guess thats the question then. How fast one can pull the trigger. Watching youtube and those magpul videos... some people can shoot that thing really fast.
If you can fire an M4 at the full auto cyclic rate, you deserve an award. It's simply impossible to fire a semi auto at ~800 rpm. Thats pulling the 12 times a SECOND. I can't do that. Don't know anybody that can.
There's absolutely no reason to worry about cyclic rate in a midlength.
If you're so focused on pulling the trigger 12 times a second, how focused are you going to be with all the other things you have to manage while shooting? What would be the point of the rapid firing?
What would be the point of the rapid firing?
To sell training DVDs! :)
haha, I'm not that concerned about it as obviously no one could notice when firing semi auto it looks like... no matter how fast you are.
I do have one question tho... if the mid length slows the cyclic rate down a hair in full auto, wouldn't that mean the rifle length (M16) shoot even slower full auto vs a carbine?
So I just saw this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=SMTFq1K276Y
Thats full auto on a middy. That sure as hell seems fast to me no? I don't get why one poster said its as slow as a M2?
So I just saw this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=SMTFq1K276Y
Thats full auto on a middy. That sure as hell seems fast to me no? I don't get why one poster said its as slow as a M2?
Ha. Now look what you've done Markm.
I don't get why one poster said its as slow as a M2?
Check out this one, Slick Fifty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKTZ6jZhupM
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 13:42
So I just saw this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=SMTFq1K276Y
Thats full auto on a middy. That sure as hell seems fast to me no? I don't get why one poster said its as slow as a M2?
That is a 16 inch middy, most likely running an H buffer...
I've seen videos of mark's 14.5 middy that really did sound like an M2...almost... {edit, see above post}
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 13:47
So I just saw this on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=SMTFq1K276Y
Thats full auto on a middy. That sure as hell seems fast to me no? I don't get why one poster said its as slow as a M2?
Can you pull the trigger that fast?
Cyclic rate will also greatly rely on the buffer. Stick an A5 with the standard weight buffer or rifle RE on there, and it'll be much slower than a carbine or H buffer in a carbine RE.
Ya, again I'm just trying to learn here and by no means trying to pull the trigger that fast. I'm still a bit confused here. So the buffer now makes all the difference, or it can at least? That other video def is slower. So a 16" vs 14.5" is faster with a mid?
its all moot anyways. Not like I'll ever attach a full auto lower to the thing. Guess I wanted to know that even the fastest of trigger pulls wouldn't be any slower than with using a carbine. Really, all I care about is being able to do fast double, triple taps and the like...
So the buffer now makes all the difference, or it can at least?
On the 14.5 MIDDY specifically... the buffer is all the difference in the world. It's very buffer sensative.
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 14:19
Ejewels, one of the main purposes of the buffer is to control the cyclic rate (also controls when the bolt unlocks). Most people though don't put it in those terms since it seems many associate cyclic rate with full auto only.
There are two things at work here, the gas system length and the buffer weight. These two things work together. The 14.5" already does on its own what a heavier buffer would do for a 14.5" carbine, so it's not necessary to run the heavier buffers with the 14.5" mid.
Like Mark said, the 14.5" mid is more sensitive to buffer changes. This isn't necessarily bad, as long as you know what you're doing if you start fooling around with buffer weights.
I understand you're learning and I didn't mean the comment about pulling the trigger in any smartass way. I was basically just reiterating what I said earlier about the cyclic rate and not being able to run it that fast.
GeorgiaBoy
01-19-12, 14:23
Getting into the whole thing regarding cyclic rates and recoil is a whole bunch of information that's fairly complicated.
Bottom line is, that generally, the longer the gas system, the softer the recoil, the heavier the buffer, the softer in recoil. Cyclic rate as well.
Ya no worries. I enjoy learning, however I'm still a bit confused. Why would a 16" mid be slower in full auto than a carbine if you can just switch out the buffers? Can you make a mid fire faster with full auto to compete with a carbine on full auto?
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 14:36
Getting into the whole thing regarding cyclic rates and recoil is a whole bunch of information that's fairly complicated.
Bottom line is, that generally, the longer the gas system, the softer the recoil, the heavier the buffer, the softer in recoil. Cyclic rate as well.
Whether one views it as simple or complicated, it's something that should be understood before people start changing buffers around because they think their rifle will recoil softer.
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 14:39
Ya no worries. I enjoy learning, however I'm still a bit confused. Why would a 16" mid be slower in full auto than a carbine if you can just switch out the buffers? Can you make a mid fire faster with full auto to compete with a carbine on full auto?
Short answer, the gas doesn't have as far to travel with the carbine gas system, so it reaches the bolt carrier sooner. If both are set up the same, the carbine will cycle faster. Add a heavier buffer and it will take longer for the gas to unlock the bolt from the barrel extension, slowing down the cyclic rate.
In some cases, I'm sure you can get a carbine gassed rifle to cycle slower than a mid length if you run a heavier buffer in the carbine and a lighter buffer in the mid length, within reason. Also considering that the rifle is from the same manufacturer and the gas ports are drilled accordingly and not a DPMS or BM that will use larger gas ports.
If the bolt carrier travels too fast or too slow, you'll start to have problems.
So that "M2" like gun could be made to run faster if a different buffer was used? A softer buffer? I would seem to me that a stronger buffer would push harder making more tension and making it spring back faster?
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 16:22
So that "M2" like gun could be made to run faster if a different buffer was used? A softer buffer? I would seem to me that a stronger buffer would push harder making more tension and making it spring back faster?
This is why I was saying earlier it's important to understand exactly what is happening when changing buffers. The heavier the buffer, the longer it will take for the bolt to unlock and move out of the barrel extension. So, (and I'm going to use very wrong, general terms here) if a carbine buffer takes one millisecond to unlock, the H may take 1.25 and the H2 might take 1.5 and so on.
Now, once it unlocks, depending on the weight, the heavier buffer will move rearward, lightly kiss the rear of the receiver extension then make its trip home. If the buffer is too light, it'll be forced back and bounce off of the rear of the extension, then quickly make its trip back home.
This is assuming the gas system stays the same. If the gas system becomes longer, it takes longer from the point the bullet is fired for it to pass the gas port, which then starts the process of the gas moving into the carrier, which then starts the unlocking process.
EDIT - As for the "M2 like" gun… The one in that video is the same and it was moving fast. I don't think Mark meant that literally. He posted a video of his 14.5" carbine and 14.5" mid length both firing full auto. If he was using a carbine buffer, it would cycle at a rate much faster. That's not necessarily optimal though.
We want it to cycle fast enough to be reliable, but in full auto we also want it to be slow enough to keep more than the first 3 rounds on target at 15 meters, for example. The differences will hardly be detectable by sound alone in most cases unless your using a rifle buffer or A5.
Another way to look at it is that the carrier (gas actually) is pushing while the spring and buffer are resisting. The heavier the buffer, the more resistance.
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 16:25
So that "M2" like gun could be made to run faster if a different buffer was used? A softer buffer? I would seem to me that a stronger buffer would push harder making more tension and making it spring back faster?
It could be made to run faster with the addition of a lighter weight buffer.
You are confusing a the spring, and the actual buffer.
You don't really want to swap springs around - you get an "H," "H1," H2," or "H3" buffer....
I think I'm starting to get it now. You COULD make it about as fast as a carbine but why would you want to? Is this the mode of thinking?
If one wanted to make a reliable, full auto 14.5" rifle... to replace the m4s in the military (still sticking with the DI AR platform)... would it be wise to make them a mid length, or would they want to stick with the carbine length?
How do I unsubscribe from a thread?
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 16:54
;)
How do I unsubscribe from a thread?
It really isn't that complicated....
There is no reason to speed up the rate at which the action cycles.
Why beat the gun up more, when it is perfectly fine to run it at a slower rate?
I guess I'm missing the reasoning behind wanting the gun to run faster... Most serious shooters, if they are going to mess with their guns at all, want to slow the action down, not speed it up, as the slower the action cycles, the easier the weapon is to control, and the less wear there is...
jonconsiglio
01-19-12, 17:23
I missed it earlier, but there's no soft and strong buffers. The body is the same and they all have three weights inside. Those weights will vary from three stainless weights (a carbine buffer) to the heaviest for an AR with three tungsten weights (an H3 buffer0 with the H (one tungsten and two stainless weights) and H2 (two tungsten and one stainless weight) in between.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
01-19-12, 18:18
We know it's possible that a manufacturer could make a better barrel than Colt. I would assume this could be true across an entire build (receiver, LPK, stock, etc.).
Therefore it's not whether or not BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske can meet the TDP spec (which is impossible to gauge without the TDP) but whether they can incidentally build to a higher spec than the TDP.
Good point. And IMHO, they do. I respect Colt for its heritage and legacy--they did "start it all" and many of us staked our lives on a Colt at some point-- but there are better guns out there today. I would consider getting a Colt solely for nostalgic reasons.
The main difference in those videos is that the first guy had a beard. That made all the difference.
Seriously, the difference in cyclic rate, provided both are using correct buffers for their application, is too small to be of importance. Especially with semi auto. If, as you say, you'll never have full auto then why care? It matters not.
Again, out of curiosity. I guess I got thrown off by hearing the same gun with faster and slower rates of fire in auto. Nothing to do with what I'll be running, because a finger can't fire that fast anyways.
So back to the original reason for this thread. My cop buddy pulled the trigger on the BCM 16" middy. We always shoot together so to not have the same rifle as him and for my own intrigue, I'm thinking of getting the 14.5 with pinned a2x. I would not put a suppressor or other muzzle device on this thing so it doesn't bother me. HOWEVER... one question I do have is this. If I save some money now and get it bare without handguards... will the pinned a2x complicate putting a rail / MOE handguard on? What are the options of handguards that I myself could install without bothering the pinned A2x? If its too much of a hassle, I might have to spend the money upfront...
you've gone from asking useful questions to heading down odd paths and asking questions that are easily answered by reading the forums. Additionally, this is beginning to sound like you started this thread wanting a certain answer and you're now going out of your way to try and steer the discussion back to the answer you wanted to begin with.
So I change my answer. Get the 14.5" mid with pinned A2x.
you've gone from asking useful questions to heading down odd paths and asking questions that are easily answered by reading the forums. Additionally, this is beginning to sound like you started this thread wanting a certain answer and you're now going out of your way to try and steer the discussion back to the answer you wanted to begin with.
So I change my answer. Get the 14.5" mid with pinned A2x.
Ya rob, you got me. Thats exactly the evil plan I was going for.
I'll admit I can go all over the place sometimes, but I just don't want to make the wrong decision. I've owned 16" before and the 14.5 allure is getting to me. My plan would be to buy the 14.5 with the A2X pinned, then buying an DD OMEGA 9 and installing myself. If this stands out as a horrible or not possible idea can somebody let me know? It would be much appreciated...
Ok, well even tho the thread went off topic, I wanna thank people for helping me out and bearing with me. I ended up going with the 14.5 BCM BFH Upper with perm A2X, BCM Auto MPI BCG and Mod4 Charging handle. I don't see myself wanting to change the muzzle device with this gun, nor doing any work other than a drop in rail so the perm thing doesn't bother me. I ordered a set of MOE Guards for it for now since they are so cheap, but in the future I plan to get a DD Omega 9, as I've read I can install without much trouble. Psyched!
Thanks again, and if anyone has any advice on ownership or operation with this particular rifle, please let me know!
TacMedic556
01-19-12, 22:57
I made the same decision after much debate. You will really enjoy your choice. Run it with a good lower, either Colt or BCM. Use the H buffer with a standard weight spring, (I chose the "white" Sprinco).
Shooting good M193 or 855 it will never fail you.
I went with the MOE as well, ordering it from IWC with the integral sling attachment.
Now I just need to find money for an optic and finish debating my mind between T1, TA33H-G, or TA44S-10....life is tough.
Haha, ya I'm psyched. Unfortunately I live in a ban state so I'm putting it on a pre ban Sendra lower. This is the only way I can have a flash hider and collapsible stock. The thing is a tank tho, and I was using it with my old Colt 6920 upper with no issues.
DeviousMind
01-20-12, 00:14
First I would like to say thanks to
Ya, I'm pretty psyched! Hopefully I'll have by next week. I'm hoping it will fit well on my pre ban lower.
I think I'm starting to get it now. You COULD make it about as fast as a carbine but why would you want to? Is this the mode of thinking?
You would and wouldn't want to. That slow cycling middy was a piece of cake to get hits on a target 50 yards away in bursts. MUCH easier than a carbine M4.
That said, it's running on the bottom end of reliabilty. Way over buffered and would probably start choking if dirty or poorly lubed.
If one wanted to make a reliable, full auto 14.5" rifle... to replace the m4s in the military (still sticking with the DI AR platform)... would it be wise to make them a mid length, or would they want to stick with the carbine length?
Stick with the carbine.
Why would they still stick with the carbine if the middy is more reliable, less pressures? I get the cyclic rate thing now, but if you tuned it well and used the right buffer, wouldn't it end up being more reliable / less pressures with the mid length? For the same reasons that people get them for semi-auto... don't those philosophies transfer over to full auto as well?
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