View Full Version : Regular or KINO...a handguard dilemma
Im dead set on this build. Im trying to decide if I want to go Kino or regular.
With my shooting style, a 10" handguard at least is optimum.
However I am really wanting a FSB, if I go with that, then I will have only 9 inches of rail space and If I decide to go with a longer handguard later on, is the FSB pins gonna screw that all up?
Also I prefer the shorter gas tube as opposed to a midlength gas system.
I want this upper to be bulletproof and I would really like to have the FSB.
Any feedback from you guys that own them would be appreciated
"Never sacrifice a real FSB for rail space" - Lao Tzu 300 B.C.E
How about a KINO build with a Centurion Arms C4 Midlenght Cutout rail?
Best of both worlds.
I was in the same boat as you. Initially, I had the same needs/wants and picked up the Kino. On paper, I liked the idea of it but in practice having the FSB in my line of sight bothered me and I found myself concentrating less on the target and more on the front sight. I also found that I liked gripping the rail right about where the sight base was on the upper.
I ended up pulling the FSB off and installing a Daniel Defense MFR rail with Troy flip up sights. Much better for me and it felt a little lighter (or more balanced) than the FSB/MOE/MVG combo I had on before. I really like having the majority of the barrel covered, all of it in this case. In the future I may swap over to a URX III rail on this barrel for S & G's.
No issues with the FSB pins, by the way.
I have a Kino upper that I've shot quite a bit. I'm not a 'high speed' user or anything, but it is currently my HD setup. I tend to prefer having the FSB, so I like it. I wouldn't want to live with carbine handguards on a barrel in this length, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything with the midlength handguards compared to a slightly longer rail.
There's a bit of extra weight up front with the Kino config, but I like the balance without a silencer mounted. That said, it is a bit front heavy with a silencer (partially due to the barrel length, partially due to the extra weight in this configuration).
http://www.krichbaum.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_000_0060.jpg
But you have holes in the barrel now from the taper pins right.
I guess a 10" rail would cover it up.
And for the record, the Centurion is exactly whats going on it.
Either a 9" or a 10".
My grip is the biggest reason why I want a longer rail with no FSB
I started off with a regular BCM 12.5" upper with Larue 11.0 and I thought it was perfect. Got to top mount my X300 and my can fit damn near perfectly at the end of the rail. Perfection (or so I thought). Then my best friend finally got his Kino with some MOE handguards... ;)
Now I also have a Kino, but with a cutback DD LITE 12.0 FSPM rail that I wasn't using. I honestly can't think of a better setup. I'm using a sling mount as a handstop/reference point on the bottom rail with a 6P/VTAC combo on the 9o'clock rail. This gives me the perfect amount of space on the rail to get my preffered grip.
I plan on building a lightweight 14.5mid version so I don't have to sweat the NFA stuff as much.
But you have holes in the barrel now from the taper pins right.
I guess a 10" rail would cover it up.
And for the record, the Centurion is exactly whats going on it.
Either a 9" or a 10".
My grip is the biggest reason why I want a longer rail with no FSB
You would have holes from the taper pins (more like channels on the bottom of the barrel, actually). A 10" rail would probably cover the rear most channel but I think the front would still be exposed.
I dont mind the weight. My 11.5" is a little front heavy but not bad. I dont mind it.
Shooting my M4 with my style is a bit hard. I cant get my arm extended...It drives me crazy.
Usually on a build I have NO problem deciding and the build comes out EXACTLY how I initially planned....but this is rough decision.
The M4 has a FSB. I love it. The 11.5" has a Front Folding sight. I like that too.
I want something to fill the gap between my M4 and 11.5".
I want it BULLETPROOF and to be a good all around shooter.
Something for long range AND CQB/HD.
FSB or no FSB is the question
Failure2Stop
01-19-12, 16:27
I'm missing it, what lenght barrel?
You say something between an 11.5 and a 14.5 (you are saying "M4" so I am assuming here), and since I don't see too many 13" barrels out there I assume you are looking at a 12.5. Yes?
If so, I'd opt for a Kino with an FSB cut.
However, I'm not sure I would opt for a 12.5 over an 11.5.
I'm missing it, what lenght barrel?
You say something between an 11.5 and a 14.5 (you are saying "M4" so I am assuming here), and since I don't see too many 13" barrels out there I assume you are looking at a 12.5. Yes?
If so, I'd opt for a Kino with an FSB cut.
However, I'm not sure I would opt for a 12.5 over an 11.5.
Im talking about getting a 12.5", kino or normal.
I have an 11.5", and I have an M4 also.
I want something to fill that gap.
I have an 11.5", and I have an M4 also.
I want something to fill that gap.
Really?
What "gap"? Because 11.5" might be too short, and 14.5" might be too long? Seriously?
Really?
What "gap"? Because 11.5" might be too short, and 14.5" might be too long? Seriously?
Ya really seriously buddy.
Does that make you mad?
I want something in BETWEEN what I own. Im not a NEWB to this game.
Its a specific role to fill. You dont have to like it.
I hear nothing but good things with that specific length. Thats what Im building and wanted input from owners of a Kino
Does that make you mad?
Not mad at all, just incredulous.
Pray tell, what is this "specific role" that a 12.5" will fill better than a 11.5" or a 14.5"?
Not mad at all, just incredulous.
Pray tell, what is this "specific role" that a 12.5" will fill better than a 11.5" or a 14.5"?
It will be my "In between an SBR M4 Role"
Honestly, what???
This isnt about what its for, thats not why I started this thread. I wanted help.
The reason for the 12.5", I want something as short as possible without sacrificing velocity and thats too hard on a can as this has the possibility of being a dedicated suppressed HD weapon.
Now I know the difference between the velocity/gas system/length is marginal at best...I still want it. I want to go as short as possible and still have the length to reach out to further distances. I also dont want any premature wear on a $1,000 suppressor which is AGAIN why Im inquiring about the Kino vs. Standard 12.5" barrel length
I hear the barrel length of 12.5" is optimal for an SBR and its performance is incredible.
It will be my "In between an SBR and M4 Role"
Honestly, what???
No need to be a smartass...
I want something as short as possible without sacrificing velocity and thats too hard on a can as this has the possibility of being a dedicated suppressed HD weapon.
See, that was easy, wasn't it?
I know the difference between the velocity/gas system/length is marginal at best... I still want it.
No need to justify wanting it to me or anybody here... I was just curious.
Inkslinger
01-19-12, 19:39
If it's going to be a dedicated suppressed HD rifle, is velocity really going to be a major concern?
No need to be a smartass...
See, that was easy, wasn't it?
No need to justify wanting it to me or anybody here... I was just curious.
Lol I didnt mean to be. I really didnt know how to take it. Computer screens are hard to take sometimes. My apologies
If it's going to be a dedicated suppressed HD rifle, is velocity really going to be a major concern?
I havent decided if It will be dedicated suppressed yet.
Velocity is not a MAJOR concern, like I said, I know its marginal
Cagemonkey
01-19-12, 19:52
How about a KINO build with a Centurion Arms C4 Midlenght Cutout rail?
Best of both worlds.I'd concur. Sounds like a good solution.
Failure2Stop
01-19-12, 21:32
There is no problem with wanting a new AR.
Whether it is to fill a specific role or "just because".
Back on topic:
to Kino or not to Kino?
I vote for no Kino, because I prefer to have longer rail systems.
Have you considered the new Centurion 12" FSP with the non-kino version?
DeltaSierra
01-19-12, 22:30
I vote for no Kino, because I prefer to have longer rail systems.
:confused:
The Kino would give you a longer rail than the "non-Kino" options...
There is no difference in barrel length or gas system between a 12.5" Kino vs. standard
There is no difference in barrel length or gas system between a 12.5" Kino vs. standard
Yes youre correct. I caught that earlier after I wrote it.
The midlength handguard got me confused for a minute there haha
I really appreciate all your replies guys, Usually I can make my own decisions on things.
This one has me though. Tough one
Heres a question for you Centurion owners.
Does that rail lock up super tight?
Specifically if you have a folding front, is that sight accurate out to say 600 meters?
Go Kino !!!!!!!!!
(I did simply cus I 'wanted' one)
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa446/Zzzake/IMG_0227.jpg
Havnt even got the chance to go and shoot it yet. It is an Ar-pistol upper btw, not a SBR (my location is my reason).
Centurion mid-length cutout is a nice rail, everything 'feels' (no hard data backing up my of my claims + 0 round fired) right.
I do know this tho, the FSB is pinned on there as well as the LPGB. So I would think it is very tight.
Good luck on your decision man!
Go Kino !!!!!!!!!
(I did simply cus I 'wanted' one)
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa446/Zzzake/IMG_0227.jpg
Havnt even got the chance to go and shoot it yet. It is an Ar-pistol upper btw, not a SBR (my location is my reason).
Centurion mid-length cutout is a nice rail, everything 'feels' (no hard data backing up my of my claims + 0 round fired) right.
I do know this tho, the FSB is pinned on there as well as the LPGB. So I would think it is very tight.
Good luck on your decision man!
Thanks man. Thanks alot.
What length is that rail?
Im assuming you dont have your stamp yet, I want to know if you can get your arm extended all the way out straight with a 9" rail.
Im really thinking Ill go with the Kino and a 9"
If I dont like it Ill cut the FSB and sell the centurion and get a 10"
DeltaSierra
01-20-12, 00:58
Heres a question for you Centurion owners.
Does that rail lock up super tight?
Specifically if you have a folding front, is that sight accurate out to say 600 meters?
I haven't had the chance to beat up my Centurion upper yet, but the lock-up on the rail seems to be as good as my DD OmegaX 9.0 rails, i.e, it is very, very tight.
Heres a question for you Centurion owners.
Does that rail lock up super tight?
I just picked up a carbine cutout and installed it this week. My initial impression is that it has less flex than the Omega 7 it replaced, but I don't have anything objective to support that opinion.
It is a hell of a nice rail, though! I'd do a Kino with the midlength version in a heartbeat if I lived in a NFA state.
"Never sacrifice a real FSB for rail space" - Lao Tzu 300 B.C.E
hahahahahah.. Classic.. Ron
jonconsiglio
01-20-12, 08:06
I think one of the very best solutions would be a Kino with a Centurion mid length cutout, as already mentioned a few times. I think if you go with a 12.5" with a low pro gas block, there won't be enough of a difference between it and the 11.5", so one will see little use once the newness of the 12.5" wears off.
I like the Centurion rails so much I've thought of doing another 10.5" but with the carbine cutout rail. I just don't need another 10.5" until I have a couple others that would actually have a use.
I'm in a similar position, but I have a 10.5" and 14.5" (and others shorter and longer) with nothing in between. I don't need anything between those two, but I just would really like a 12.5" since I've never owned one. I'm back and forth as well if I should go with the Kino set up I just mentioned or with a low pro gas block and the DD MFR rail.
This would already be done if Daniel Defense would produce the GL/SSC rail or Larry Vickers or Stick would donate their samples to my project. Surprisingly, neither have volunteered the GL/SSC's! :D
Thanks man. Thanks alot.
What length is that rail?
Im assuming you dont have your stamp yet, I want to know if you can get your arm extended all the way out straight with a 9" rail.
Im really thinking Ill go with the Kino and a 9"
If I dont like it Ill cut the FSB and sell the centurion and get a 10"
Its a Mid-length cutout rail. Top 9 1/4 in, Sides 11 1/2 in, Bottom 10 5/8 in
I cant get a stamp cus I am in Cali, :(
I dont really fully extend my arm out, but I think you can easily if you want to (dont know how tall or how long your arms). Just have to mount the handstop/vfg closer the FSB. Where I am mounting mine handstop (to get the reach for the light switch), I can not fully extend (I am 6' tall w/ average arm length).
Here are a couple more shots, I took the rail cover off to get a better look.
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa446/Zzzake/IMG_0257.jpg
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa446/Zzzake/IMG_0259.jpg
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa446/Zzzake/IMG_0260.jpg
Ya I think Im gonna go with the Kino.
Not sure if Im getting the cutout rail but it will definately be the Centurion, the 9".
bleaman225
01-20-12, 13:39
I would say 100% go for the kino but I'm biased.
http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu29/benleaman/Permanent/IMG_0063.jpg
I don't know how long your arms are and, additionally, I have no idea what stance you are rocking when you shoot so I can't say what you can expect for arm extension. With that said, here are somethings I can tell you.
- I am 5' 10" and have a 29.5" arm (from pit to middle fingertip).
- I use a slightly bladed stance as suggested to me by that LAV guy.
- Colt 4 position RE with a Vltor Modstock locked into position 3.
- Those things combined, my arm is not straight and/or fully extended while shouldering the carbine.
- I would venture to guess that my elbow is at an angle in the neighborhood of 135 degrees.
- For me to get a fully "locked" arm, I need to put my thumb on the top of the flash hider and the pointer and social finger in front of the muzzle.
Gotta head to the barber (no pun intended) but if I can be of any other help, just let me know. That is provided all the above did in fact help...
I shoot arm extended.
I measured my 11.5" last night, I dont think Ill have any problem with a 9" rail and getting my arm out.
My stock is at number 1 and Im pretty squared off, knees bent.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j468/Danger131/Grip.png
bleaman225
01-20-12, 14:56
Good deal. Enjoy.
Failure2Stop
01-20-12, 15:36
Definately go FSB cutout.
You lose nothing if you don't mount a light, and if you do you won't lose available hand placement on the HG.
Ya that's a good call. I was thinking about that earier, I was looking at it from a resale standpoint in case I didn't like the length but it seems a lot of people are interested in the cut out
:confused:
The Kino would give you a longer rail than the "non-Kino" options...
I'm talking 12 inch rail:D
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